We could talk about Yogacara psychology tonight, the teaching about eight consciousnesses, but is there something else you want to talk about? I have something that's lingering from one of your lectures, and it's okay with me if we don't talk about it tonight, but I wanted to mention it, and hopefully we get to talk about it sometime, or you get to talk about it sometime. You said that emptiness is not the absolute.

[01:08]

Maybe you didn't say that, but that's what I was saying here. Emptiness is suchness. Emptiness is suchness, and that that wasn't the absolute. Suchness existed at the point of the relative and the absolute. Sort of how I understood the other side, not the psychological side, but I was really understanding the philosophical side of it. So you're kind of hoping that emptiness could be the absolute?

[02:13]

Yeah, well, I don't know that I'm hoping for it. I don't have any money down on any of the contenders. But I had a sort of a comfortable... You were talking about building structures. I had a comfortable little structure built that said that the relative is what we ordinarily perceive as being there, as form. And that the absolute was not form. It was emptiness, and that suchness was basically where those two things met. There's something absolutely was, not absolutely was, but is, in the ordinary sense. It isn't in an absolute sense. So, since everything is marked with emptiness, that's not the absolute.

[03:34]

Yes. All dharmas are marked by emptiness, and emptiness is kind of the absolute marker. Great. And also in terms of the way Westerners think, or I think as a Westerner, I think that thinking of the void, thinking of emptiness, that it corresponds, not that the void and emptiness are the same thing necessarily, but that the Western notion of the void seems very absolute, and so it's real comfortable to identify. Okay, well...

[04:48]

I don't think we'll have to talk about that sometime. Yes? I wondered if this would be a good time to talk about transmission. How many people are interested in that topic? Do you have any particular questions about that? Well, it's a more gentle question, what's your understanding of what it means for people to quote or quote receive transmission. I guess, is that...

[06:03]

So, the question as far as what that means in terms of their practice, and their relationship to the rest of the Sangha, as far as being teachers. Okay. I see you wondering, what does... Are you speaking when you say transmission, like formal Dharma transmission? Is that what you're referring to? Well, that's part of my question, what are you referring to? You brought it up, not me. But, there is a group of people who are... I don't feel like I can just launch off into what it is, but I can answer specific questions, if you have some specific questions.

[07:07]

Got it. Well, one question would be, is this a kind of finishing off of their training, or their training with you as a teacher? Is this the beginning of... Well, does it mean some other relationship with other students? Well, the way I'm understanding it is that it's primarily a confirmation of the individual person's practice, and it does not mean that they're a teacher. When a person becomes ordained as a priest, in some sense, the first ordination, in some sense, the issue of them being a teacher is raised,

[08:11]

because people have some tendency, some people anyway, have some tendency to regard priests as teachers of Buddhism. So that seems to be there, something like that. Some people feel that priests, quite clearly feel that priests are teachers, or respect them for being priests, just for being priests, especially in the Orient they would do that. In America, some people do, some people don't. If, you know, there was a sitting group forming in, I don't know where, in the middle of the country or something, some people were interested in Zen and started to sit together, and if somehow a priest came, an ordained Zen Buddhist priest came, they might relate to the person as a teacher of Buddhism.

[09:15]

Probably the person would have more experience in Buddhism than they do. And plus the ordinations, probably they would think it symbolizes some considerable commitment to the practice. So, there's some tendency. Then, after your shuso, you start even getting more into the teaching. But the Dharma transmission is primarily, so Dharma transmission is another step in that commitment. So now you have a person who's really, seems to be very committed to the practice of Buddhism, before he stops his way. So when you see someone who has a real strong commitment to some discipline, oftentimes you might think that they're a teacher of that discipline. But not necessarily. Some lay people are tremendously committed to Buddhism or to Christianity or something,

[10:24]

but you don't necessarily think of them as teachers. But still, if their commitment is really intense, somehow, even if they're not called a teacher, you still feel, well, they still have something to teach just by their commitment. Or another example would be, many people sew raksus. And several people have learned how to sew raksus so well that they can teach other people. But for some reason or other, the priests who have learned how to sew raksus have wound up to be the ones who wind up teaching it. Not because they're better at sewing, but somehow they're better at teaching. But they somehow wind up taking the responsibility for taking care of the conveying of the teaching of sewing. So priests tend to wind up in the position more often, but not always, some lay people get into that position too, of carrying the responsibility for certain,

[11:25]

particularly material aspects of the practice. So it's not an absolute, especially in America, not an absolute black and white situation, because right now Barbara is the Eno, so she takes care of the formal, material side of things, and all of her domes are into that too. So, here at Tassajara it's not so sharp, but still, even Barbara said, but this is a really good job for a priest. So I'm just saying, this kind of stuff is in the air, so if you go through the ordination, and then you go through shuso, and then you go through this other thing, which symbolizes even a deeper level of commitment, there is some feeling that, doesn't this mean this person is a teacher? But no it doesn't. It just means that this person's commitment to Buddhism is really, you know, pretty deep. And they're firm, they have a very firm,

[12:28]

very firm commitment to Buddhism, and to the Bodhisattva way. Now, when someone is very committed to something, even if they're not so-called, quote, teacher, in some sense that stability, and that weightiness, that mountain-like stability, that mountain-like quality of their involvement, manifests a dynamic which we call emptiness, or wisdom, even though they may not be a so-called teacher. So, even though they may not consciously know what they're doing even, there's some kind of thing going on there. But, strictly speaking, this ceremony does not mean, okay, this person is a teacher now. That's for somebody else to say. And there are,

[13:37]

there are, in some parts of Zen ceremonies, to say this person is a teacher now, and sometimes Buddhist teachers, however they got to be teachers, say, I think this person is going to teach now. But still, it's mostly, it comes from the students, saying the teacher is a teacher. And there's some kind of, through relationships, that the person is a teacher becomes more and more a fact. In Soto Zen, it does not mean that the person is a teacher. It's a confirmation of their own practice. And then the next stage would be to confirm or establish their relationships with other people, which may already have been occurring before they even had transmission. So, at Zen centers, some people might receive transmission that are already our teachers, in a sense. Whereas in Japan, you sometimes have very young people receiving transmission.

[14:40]

They're still going to college or something, maybe. They don't have any students. So that's one, that's one thing. And then the other thing is that some other teachers might, Soto Zen teachers might use Dharma transmission as synonymous with being a teacher. But that's not the way I'm understanding it. However, I feel that after a person's been practicing for 20 years, or 50 years, or something like that, in general, what you have here is a very clear commitment to the practice. And in Japan, the meaning of Dharma transmission in Soto Zen basically is that the person is a fully ordained priest. And they can function as a priest and be in charge of a temple. And there's thousands and thousands and thousands of temples in Japan.

[15:42]

They don't all have teachers in them, in the sense of, I don't know what. But the person who's the head of the temple is kind of, they're sort of a teacher, they're like a parish priest. But they're not necessarily considered to be a teacher in some other sense. But they are a teacher. So, it doesn't mean they're not a teacher, but it doesn't mean there is a teacher. And it doesn't mean their relationship with people will change, but it does mean that they're fully ordained and that they can function as a parish priest, basically. That's what it means, they can function as a parish priest. Yeah? Do you have to be a priest to get Dharma transmission? In Soto Zen so far, yes.

[16:44]

So that's part of the question in America now, what to do about lay teachers. What are we going to do about that? I wonder if Dharma transmission is a good term, because it implies like you're getting something, you're getting something. This is getting the Dharma, getting something. Yeah. Do you mean transmission of something else? Well, that phrase, that's accurate. Yeah. You do get something, but it's not exactly like, it's not exactly in the realm of duality that you get it. So...

[17:47]

They get something that we don't? Well, it's not so much that they get something that you don't, but they get something that they didn't know they had. Which we get. Which everybody else gets also. You get it, but you may not know you have it. In other words, usually after the ceremony is over, it's called the rite of passage. And it's, what's the difference, you know? They have this fish, this fish are swimming around, and they go through a gate, and they come out on the other side and they're a dragon. How does it happen? They were a dragon before, but they didn't understand it. It's funny, but it changes everything. But it's the same person. They actually get stuff too, you know? But the stuff is, could be meaningless. You know?

[18:49]

You get a staff, and you get a whisk, and you get a bowl, and you get a robe, and you get some other stuff, a new pair of shoes. And a driver's license. But I mean, so what? They're little toys. But these symbolize Buddha's body. And then, do you understand it? Do you understand this is Buddha's body? Well, do you understand it up here, this is Buddha's body, up here, here? What part of your body do you understand this is Buddha's body? Some people might understand. You know? They might actually get it. Oh yeah, I understand, this is Buddha's body. Some people might have that feeling. Other people might say, I don't know what's going on here. You could have different,

[19:53]

but still they feel differently afterwards, I think. And strictly speaking, according to the tradition, they then can do certain things that they couldn't do before. Whether they feel differently about it or not, anyway, they know they're empowered to do certain ceremonies, like funeral ceremonies. They can give lay ordination and things like that. Because the precepts have been transmitted to them, the Dharma has been transmitted to them rather than they have received the Dharma. So now they can pass it on. So in one sense, they've become vessels for the Dharma. So they're not just receiving the Dharma, they're now a vessel of the Dharma. And they may have no understanding of that to speak of, but at least they can be a vessel. And sometimes you could have maybe somebody, a great teacher, and then you could have a disciple that wasn't so great,

[20:55]

and another disciple that wasn't so great, and another disciple that wasn't so great, and then a great disciple, one that everyone's in honor. There is a teacher. That's possible. But this one here couldn't have happened if it weren't for these three apparently not-so-significant vessels here. It just seems to be part of the thing. What is it all about? You know, we don't really know exactly what's going on here. These are ancient things, and it's not really a matter of knowing. So my feeling was Suzuki Hiroshi was whoever he was, and Big Hiroshi was whoever he was, and I'm whoever I am, and these people I'm working with, they're who they are, and

[21:56]

there it is. And these ceremonies make very strong connections between the people. And there's some tradition about what they mean, and I don't think that they mean that the person is completely, perfectly enlightened. Because again, there are thousands and thousands of Japanese Zen priests, and they're not walking around saying that they're completely enlightened. They're Bodhisattvas, most of them, hopefully. And they're not being told that these are completely trained, fully-involved Buddhas. But they are, generally speaking, really committed, and now we have people here who are in some sense have the same level of empowerment as people over in Japan,

[22:59]

because they have more experience, and are more committed than they are. However, at Harvard you can get a PhD in about 15 minutes, sometimes, especially in mathematics or philosophy, or something like that, where Harvard's really good. Princeton seemed to be good at physics, or Yale, good at certain things. But you can't get a PhD in mathematics at the University of Montana in 15 minutes. It probably takes 15 years. And same in Judo, you can go to Japan and you can get a black belt in three months in Judo. If you go to the Kodokan there in Tokyo or wherever it is. But usually in America it takes you many years to get a black belt. So, in the situation where something is created,

[24:01]

there are cultural checks such that you can go through certain processes of initiation more rapidly and be sort of a youngster. And your commitment, although you may not demonstrate your commitment so clearly in your own life, the cultural situation will take care of you. You won't be able to screw it up very easily. But here on the frontier, so to speak, maybe it makes sense that it takes longer for people to get done with transmission. I think another thing that's happened is that somehow in Zen the teacher-disciple thing has become so important that it almost looks like all there is. And I think it's kind of over-emphasized, like it's all there or something. All the other cultural

[25:03]

and historical factors are not also really important. So, is to have more fully ordained Zen priests and then maybe if we have several hundred or several thousand maybe these so-called great teachers will somehow appear out of that. But if we only have, now if we have just like in each temple there's just like one or two at a time, then it looks like there's nothing so close to the core of reality in any temple. There really is something to it and all that. Rather than if people are going to take on a certain ritual and I don't know what functions in a temple they need certain kind of training and then that training culminates in certain kind of ceremonies and then the person's

[26:14]

all worked out and so on and so forth. But I think it means and all the people that are working on it now I think it means pretty close to unshakable commitment in this lifetime and therefore they can finish it. The process also is taking quite a bit of time and I don't know it may take like some of them are kind of thinking about like this year or something but the more I get into it the more I feel like well there seems to be more and more stuff that needs to be done so actually it may take quite a while to get it done because it has its own again this thing and maybe by the time it's done it will be done tomorrow I don't think it would mean that

[27:14]

in my sense of what's going on here but still I think in some sense tomorrow would be okay if all the work could get done if what it meant was clear commitment to the way and the ability to take on responsibility for priestly functions. Does that make sense? How did you get seniority? Like how many years you've been at the place? I started totally in terms of seniority you know at first I thought maybe it had something to do with certain bells going off in the dharma realm that would give me some kind of a clue about when to start working and who and those bells weren't going off and I just felt like well I didn't think it was healthy to wait until the bells went off because then everybody at Zen Center is sort of sitting there what's going on you know what's have all these people who have been around here all these years what are you waiting for? So what I did was

[28:15]

I just said by seniority I just took the oldest priest at Zen Center and I just got them together and I said I want to start working on these materials with the most senior people and my feeling was that just the most senior people getting together would be a unique experience something that they hadn't done before plus it hadn't happened before anyway just that would be interesting and it was and we studied certain things which we don't ordinarily study and that would be interesting too and these things particularly related to teaching so then we just started this process and then after a while and I said to them at the beginning this doesn't I expect no commitment from you to follow through on this to some conclusion in other words to receive dharma transmission with me and also I'm not making commitment to you but then after about six months or so

[29:15]

I said well I'd like to now say I will complete it with you and then some of them have said that they wanted to do it one of the funny thing one of the paradoxes that I've experienced in Buddhism or in which is all I know about in terms of religion is that the more you offer people the less people can the smaller number of people can accept in other words if you offer practically nothing almost everyone can accept and then if you offer a little bit more still quite a few people can accept but the number goes down and when you offer a great deal very few people can accept it because people naturally know that if you give them a great deal that there's some obligation if you give people the refuges right almost everybody that's practiced for a little while is willing to take the refuges and then if you add on to the refuges the precepts then some people

[30:15]

even if they've been practicing for a while hesitate wait a minute I'm not sure about that because they think well that probably obligates me then doesn't it in some way well yeah in some way I mean yeah and if you give them a lineage paper and some clothing too well that gives them even more there's obligation a little bit more well yeah I mean you've got this thing now you've got to take care of it so yeah it does I mean I'm sorry I mean it does the more you give people the more obligation naturally accrues even though you may not be giving it in order to instill obligation in fact people naturally feel that so so dharma transmission is a tremendous gift because so much it's a it can be anyway so much material and time is invested that the people feel some indebtedness and they may not want to feel indebted to this particular person so so

[31:17]

but just by seniority in some people this first group will not complete it probably some people will not want to do it they'll decide that they want to not do it at all because they don't want to get into the obligation of it or they don't want to do it with me but even if they don't want to do it with me they're still studying this stuff and then it's useful whoever they would do it with so and I think it's not and if other other teachers teach it differently well then they can say oh they teach it differently that's interesting too but I don't think it's so different I think this is a place where it's most similar I mean the material's most similar but the way of teaching might be very different yeah I appreciate the way you see it I think it's a very healthy one it's obvious there seems to be different understandings of different people I mean why would some teachers like Sasaki Roshi doesn't give

[32:19]

transmission to anybody he has relatively senior students and Suzuki Roshi only gave transmission to one person so that would contradict I mean there's obviously a different understanding yeah I don't think Suzuki Roshi's is different because I talked to him about it and he was he was about to start a fairly massive donor transmission program just before he died and but he was he underestimated the power of his illness if he didn't know how sick he was he wouldn't have even thought of trying to do it but if he had lived two more years I think there might have been ten donor transmissions and he would have

[33:19]

he would have imported he was planning to import Noiri Roshi close donor relative of his to come over and help with the ceremonies now that was 14 or 15 years ago and I felt at that time I thought boy that's pretty far off all these donor transmissions to this number of not such young not such experienced priests I was impressed now 15 years later it seems like even now there's not too much of a record so I think he would have concluded now Dr. Now Suzuki Roshi is a little bit different though and I think they don't have donor transmissions really they have more what's called Inca it's quite different quite different quite a different concept and has I think a little bit more the meaning of this person is has the same understanding as me a little bit more like that I approve this person's understanding of the Koan system

[34:19]

some Soto Zen people have gotten into Inca for example Yasutani those people got into that and they usually got that Inca stuff from going over to Rinzai for a while but Dogen Zenji did not have Inca so the face-to-face transmission is not Inca according to Soto Zen but Shakyamuni Buddha when he looked at at the Mahakasyapa smiled and he recognized him as his disciple it was a recognition you know the Dharma transmission but it wasn't really Inca but maybe somebody else would say it is I don't know there was a recognition but in in some other cases so Sakuroshi Sakuroshi he can speak for himself and and that's a different type of thing and it's not Dharma transmission it's not Soto Zen Dharma transmission it doesn't deal with the same materials the same teachings

[35:26]

are not given the same forms are not given it's quite a different ceremony this ceremony takes seven well it takes years to prepare for in some cases years of study together sometimes decades but particularly years of study in materials directly related to the ceremony could be done which they don't they don't do that in Rinzai they don't have the same materials even though materials are straightforward Mahayana materials so in that sense they do have them what was I going to say oh but in Rinzai still they have something like I don't know what they have but somehow in Rinzai they have 10,000 Rinzai priests they have 10,000 or so temples in Rinzai Zen and there's priests at all those temples but not all those priests have gone to a monastery and gone through the Koan system and gotten Inca when I say not all of them I mean very few of them and in Soto Zen

[36:28]

the difference is that all the priests in all those temples have Dharma transmission but some of them have Dharma transmission when they're 20 years old they grow up in a in a temple which are they're getting lots of education that way they go to high school they go to college maybe and have Dharma transmission or they go to maybe have maybe have Dharma transmission then go to college then come back get married and take over the temple or look for their father or whatever so in Soto Zen Dharma transmission means like the beginning of a priest's study in many cases but in America it's more like not the end of their study but it's like a confirmation of a highly deeply demonstrated commitment to the practice is what it's become here so what we have in America is not you don't really have that in Japan of people getting getting Dharma transmission after so many years it's not so common so

[37:29]

it's really not comparable but as I said one of my main feelings is that if Dharma transmission means means some kind of significant you know attainment then then you have a problem because then then the fully ordained priests are also the teachers so the teachers have to do all the priest's work right which means if you have a big Buddhist community it's impossible because the head teacher of a monastery can't do all the congregation work so it just won't work we have to have fully ordained priests so that's why I cannot I cannot see waiting to to make these fully ordained priests and tell I don't know some especially since they want to do their work and people want them to do it and so on and so forth it's just and as I said

[38:29]

in Japan it means much less than we made it mean but in America partly because it's frontier land it has gotten to be a big deal in Soto Zen too because of various historical accidents like Sugoguchi dying young and Sugoguchi being very involved in expanding Zen center and not having time to spend time with the students do that kind of work so is there in the Soto tradition is there some formal way of acknowledging same understanding or formal way yeah no borrow the Inka Inka Shomei borrow Inka Shomei from Rinzai you can do and some Soto Zen people do that there's Shike also yeah recognition of your peers right well there's there's

[39:30]

there's Shinsan Shiki when a community invites you to be Abbott that's recognition as a teacher that's usually the way it's done that's usually the ceremony that's the biggest ceremony Soto Zen has and then another definition is if if you're head of a large training monastery that's usually confirmation of of Inka teacher or if if if priests who weren't ordained by you come study with you that's sort of indication that you're a teacher or if your peers get together and say you're good or some other teacher who's recognized somehow and said you're good these are various ways but these there was for example at one point around Zen Center Nana Dahlberg said shouldn't we start calling Katagiri Roshi Katagiri Sensei Roshi and

[40:30]

and so he said that to Zuku Roshi and Zuku Roshi said yeah it's okay and we started calling Katagiri Roshi that was not a ceremony in the usual sense there was no incense offered or any bows or anything maybe there were but I don't think so as far as I know it was just Nana got the idea and asked Zuku Roshi and Zuku Roshi said fine and that was it and now it says actually I've seen some biographies of Katagiri Roshi and it said he was recognized as a Roshi by Zuku Roshi wasn't really a ceremony nothing compared to Dharma Transmission Dharma Transmission is a seven day ceremony with lots of preparations for months beforehand so it's really that's really the ceremony and in Rinzai they don't have anything like that

[41:32]

as far as I know they just Inca is not really much of a ceremony however there's this formal koan study which some leads up to which is rather ceremonial than formal as certain What was the basis of Zuku Roshi's choice of people? The basis? Like commitment or enlightenment or I don't know he didn't tell me what the basis was any feeling for it? Well what he said about one person was he said he's not perfect but he suffers a lot and about another person he said well he's doing pretty well he's taking care of himself pretty well so I think I'm going to do a ceremony with him and those are the things he said to me about two people that he was going to

[42:34]

do Dharma Transmission with Do you think it was related to destiny? Well for example the fact that he in one case he said the person's not perfect which means I think that the person's not so bad because he didn't he said not perfect as though as though that was the issue in other words they were working towards that and their suffering would bring them along in other words there was enough there so that he was hoping that the suffering would would you know would burn would cook the person cook the person cook the person so one understanding of Soto Zen is live a long time because if you if you get Dharma Transmission and you live many many years after that you'll get good so by the time you're old you'll be you'll be pretty good 60, 70, 80 because having Dharma Transmission and and experiencing

[43:34]

what happens to you after that happens is kind of a nice cooker so that I think there was definitely some understanding that was being recognized there but he didn't he didn't get into measuring it too much like he said to me one time I said to him his ex right up here you know in one of his cabins he said in a lecture he said my disciples blah blah and I went up to him afterwards and I said by the way who are your disciples and he said well I don't like to think this way but my mind does this and he told me who his disciples were and who his disciples weren't but the point is he didn't really like that his mind made certain calculations to figure out who his disciples were and who his disciples weren't so in other words there probably was some kind of calculation going on but probably to figure out who would have Dharma Transmission who wouldn't but he didn't really like that so I didn't try to get him

[44:35]

to tell me his calculations so I don't really know what they were but again when he says this person is doing pretty well taking care of himself that's also kind of indirect way of saying understanding is pretty good because they are doing alright you know he didn't usually say this person is really I didn't hear him say this person is really enlightened as a matter of fact he never even said he never said he as in literature is really enlightened so he just didn't talk that way you know he was kind of maybe because he thought maybe it would be a bad thing to do here in America to talk that way and besides that if he said that this person is really enlightened maybe somebody would ask him if he was and then if he wouldn't answer if he would say no then they would say how can you say that he is or she is he didn't think his disciple was and you know various things

[45:36]

have happened to make us wonder if really a complete perfect enlightenment is what's going on here in this Dharma transmission do you understand? you know working with these people and also working with other people who aren't these people I think I notice that actually I'm not exactly an ambivalent person but I do have ambivalence in other words I notice that people are really really good I see I see Buddha nature in people I see but I also notice that people have some work to do can you imagine that?

[46:37]

in other words I see I have sort of ambivalent view of people sometimes I see they have work to do and also they don't have any work to do and I heard this story about Pablo Casals this this cellist went and played for him one day and he was kind of nervous because he was playing for Pablo Casals and he kind of screwed up didn't play very well and afterwards Pablo Casals you know clapped very energetically and said it was terrific and the guy sort of said thank you and left afterwards he thought that was weird he thought that was so praised me so much what was that all about? I mean it just wasn't that good he just couldn't understand

[47:43]

what was going on then a couple of years later he went he played for Pablo Casals again and but this time he was more mature and more relaxed and he played much better and again Pablo Casals said and then he sort of had the courage to say you know the last time I played for you you really praised me highly and and really I screwed up and why did you do that? and Pablo Casals got really angry at him and said and he remembered what the guy did that time and he said didn't you do this that's the way and didn't you do this this way now wasn't that just really good? the guy said yeah he said but I also screwed up with everything he said I leave it to idiots to criticize people when they make mistakes my job is to notice when somebody does something good and you did some things

[48:44]

good and I really appreciate that so you know so Suzuki Roshi saw these people and he saw something good about them and I think he said also he's not perfect he knew that they had he knew that we had problems he didn't know how much problems we had unfortunately but he knew we had some problems at least he heard about them but he also could see something good and yes I think he did see some understanding I think he did see some commitment of the way or some sincerity or something that that was what he was recognizing in some level and years of dedication he must have seen something like that but it doesn't mean he didn't see all kinds of other problems

[49:45]

and his job mainly was I think to recognize people to appreciate that side of people and he wanted somebody else to actually get him for that the problem is that in America we didn't have we don't have enough people to attack the problems we need a whole bunch we need some people to sort of clap for any little good thing that ever happens and then we need a bunch of other people who are idiots who will attack people for their errors which they have in Japan in the Buddhist situation and the music situation we have people who are willing to attack people for their errors and say how afraid they are of stuff so that's kind of the problem in America is that situation played that role of recognizing people but we also needed other people to do the other side that was part of my function with him actually is that I would I would be the bad guy for him

[50:47]

that's part of the reason why I think he'd like me around I was, you know and I would I would go up to people and say you know I'm right here where there's still no Buddha nature here and then he could just sit there and say it's a nice combination gave me a lot of strokes for being tough and so now in my situation I wish I had somebody to beat people up well a lot of people are getting paid but nobody's getting anybody else and maybe I never thought of you

[51:56]

anything else about this I just want to say that I find it very encouraging thank you and I'm going to start another group basically by seniority next step down in seniority another group in the spring in the city in the city of Greenwich I just invited all the people that are around and she says next group and if they all come and I'll split it into two groups Mohammed will be able to come and start working with them and I'm really enjoying it actually it's really it's really it's neat neat stuff and it's the stuff is not it's not stuff that's unavailable to any of you but you just generally you don't study it like for example there's several chapters

[53:12]

in the Shogogenza that are kind of directly related to teaching you could read them yourself like in the Men and Dew Drop they're under the section of transmission to the teaching actually those are those are type of fascicles that we're concentrating on the only difference is that those people are getting together in a group and doing that and they're senior people but it's it's not like secret stuff it's just it's how do I put it it's kind of like it's kind of like there's this big all this Buddhist teaching and then and then there's some kind of like just some very basic stuff you know everybody knows it's very basic like the vow to save all sentient beings for example and so then you sort of say

[54:12]

well now that's really basic so let's write that down the vow to save sentient beings that's really important and so now I tell you I just told you folks that it's that's really important you already knew this anyway didn't you and I tell you now I'm telling you that but if I actually went around to two of you as I can as I said in a special class we came to the class we sat down and said it's very important the vow to save all sentient beings is very important you said that's the big secret teaching gee I already knew that that's really important yeah that's really important geez that's interesting I thought it was but now I feel I can feel even more now it's kind of like that you know it's just like it emphasizes because you make

[55:14]

this special effort to point it out you sort of it sinks in deeper and then you sort of you just sort of feel like God yeah boy ready to go to work it's that kind of thing and mostly it's that kind of thing there's some things which are which you haven't seen yet which aren't so well known and that's these specific documents those aren't published but again everything in there is very straightforward essential mind and stuff and the documents just make them all more like oh yeah right that really is important that kind of thing and then there's also transmission of practices you know and ritual things like how to do sprinkle the water and how to bow and how to wear robes and these kind of things you know which is just like priest craft but again

[56:14]

in an intense intimate situation so it's that kind of stuff okay well look that was out of the document class so that really was out of the document class any last questions? you know what I was going to I was going to study with you tonight was the 80th the 80th case of the of the blue cliff record the 80th case of the blue cliff record which is a monk comes up to a jao jo you know a jao jo and says does a dog have a hooligan nature? that's not the 80th case that's jao jo though jao jo says

[57:15]

right and then one other time he came up to jao jo and jao jo said yo but this time the monk came up and said does a baby have the sixth consciousness? does a newborn baby have the sixth consciousness? so there are these eight consciousnesses in the yogicara teaching so this is an example of this that case the 80th case is a discussion of basic mahayana abhidharma particularly the kind of stuff that you find in the Lankavatara sutra if you'd like to look at that case I intended in that abhidharma class to study that case the sixth sense consciousness? no yes the sixth sense consciousness in other words is mind consciousness does the that's one of the eight that's right it's one of the eight so there's there's the five sense consciousnesses

[58:16]

and then there's mind consciousness and then there's manas the seventh and then there's live vijnana those are the eight so the question was does a baby have this sixth this mind consciousness and Jago said it's like throwing a water I mean throwing a ball on fast flowing water and then in the discussion there you see there's an example of a zen zen koan where basically most of the commentary is is the Lankavatara sutra teaching and it's basically the abhidharma of the eight consciousnesses and also in the zen doan there's quite a bit of stuff about the eight consciousnesses and the five four wisdoms so I would like if possible to spend a little bit of time on these eight consciousnesses

[59:16]

and how they're transformed into four wisdoms tomorrow I'm going to San Francisco for a board meeting and some other meetings and take a vacation with my wife and go to Death Valley and I'll be back around the day before the shi-so ceremony shi-so ceremony's on the third so I'm planning to be back on the second yeah just one more session fifth session is fifth we try to keep the

[60:20]

sessions so close to each other so we don't get lost and and so also you guys don't get lost in our sessions it's pretty soon it'll be 40 but soon it'll all run together yeah gradually right because we're basically working towards it we seem to have survived pretty well are you alright? alright okay thank you all just just drive and and Robin will beat you up later

[61:10]

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