Also, I dashed off a little piece of, I wrote three Chinese characters out before class, which is from the Diamond Sutra, where the Buddha encouraged, told Sambuddhi that it's good if bodhisattvas give rise to a mind which has no place of dwelling. or a mind which has nothing and dwells on. So I wrote out, nothing which is dwelled on. So if anybody would like a copy of that clear field, let me know by standing up. Okay, now when those who are standing, please count off. Three.

[01:02]

Four. Five. Six. Seven. Eight. Nine. 10. 11. 12. 13. 14. 15. 16. 17. 18. 19. 21. 22. 23. 24. 25. 26. 27. 28. 29. 30. 31. 32. 33. 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 49, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47, 48, 49, 50. Impressive, huh? Okay, so would you make 52 just to fill out the deck?

[02:05]

In a way, that's sort of what this case is about. It's about that mind, that bodhisattva mind, which doesn't dwell on anything, which has no place that hangs out. Whatever comes, whatever appears to that mind, appears to that mind, but the mind doesn't abide on that, doesn't depend on that. That mind dependently co-arises with whatever appears to it. Could you put that someplace?

[03:42]

Thank you. You're not clear about the relationship between non-attachment and not dwelling on anything? Anybody care to tell him what the relationship between non-attachment and not dwelling on anything is? Same thing, yeah. Pretty much two different ways of expressing the same So, why do you say not dwelling in non-attachment? Oh, and why do you say not dwelling in non-attachment? Well, it's possible to not dwell on anything.

[05:55]

Just a second. It's possible to not dwell on anything, okay? and then to dwell on that. So you don't dwell on anything. So Dhamma Sutra says the mind doesn't dwell on sights, sounds, smells, tastes, tangibles, or mind objects. So you don't dwell on any of those, but it might be possible then to dwell on that non-dwelling which you could say, well, does that mean you convert that non-dwelling into a thing? So in a sense, what you do is you make, in a sense, you convert that non-dwelling into a mind object, a very subtle mind object, which is this subtle way of non-dwelling. You make it into a thing, and you dwell in that. So then, the next stage, so you don't do that. The first one would be you would dwell.

[06:58]

Second one, you wouldn't even dwell in the non-attachment. And then the third cleaning up of the situation would be that you wouldn't even have any kind of like conception or understanding that you were involved in that. You wouldn't remember that you were doing this practice. that you're a bodhisattva who gives rise to a mind which doesn't dwell on anything. So the three are, in some sense, the first one is virtuous, it's a very virtuous situation, but there's still a little bit of meditation sickness there. There's a slight bit of possible clinging there. Second one, you don't even do that. Third one, you don't even know that you don't do it. Don't even understand you're not doing it. You don't even carry that.

[07:59]

So this is like totally purified. Would you stand up and say that louder, please? Can you say it to everybody? Okay, but if you state that, then you're setting up something that the situation depends on. So you don't want to require that. What you just said, we don't have that either. Or even the reality, even the actuality of not having that brain activity.

[09:03]

Because that would be either some idea you have or it would be some actual physiological situation. Hmm? Well, the mind can depend on actual physical things. It could. Physical, like colors or tangibles or actual sensory experiences. In other words, brain function. Well, or dwell in it. Or there's something that... depends on those in order to exist. So in that sense it's a psychological mind. But also to depend on there wasn't a psychological mind would be another condition.

[10:07]

So it isn't that either. In the way that you I articulated the three non-attachments right before Roy's second question. Yeah. It sounded to you as if the third one, only in the third one would the first and second actually be real. Is that so? I guess you could see it that way, yeah. That the first two would be somewhat impure unless the third one was there. There would really be one? Mm-hmm. Yeah. In some sense, you know, there's, as I mentioned, there's a case. So sometimes they say, when Yin-Man said one thing, all three were there. But also Yin-Man talked about the three meditation sicknesses or two meditation sicknesses.

[11:12]

So in some sense, these three phases are in some sense unpacking the one, the actual mind, in terms of requirements satisfied, but also possible sicknesses or limits in it. So if you have all three together, then the first two are truly that way, namely the first two. There is non-attachment, pure non-attachment. There is not abiding in non-attachment. And the first one is completely non-attachment because there's not even any abiding in it and not even any idea of it. The second one is completely not dwelling in it because there's not even an idea of it. And the third one is what we just mentioned. But you could also say that that shows that you could have the first two could be some dwelling in the first two. And that would be quite an attainment to those first two would be meditation attainments with some limit still set.

[12:21]

A little bit of dwelling still. I wanted to, actually, in the early part of the class... Yes? Thank you. May I finish? I just want to go a little bit further. In the early part of the class, I wanted to build a container for this class. Not to say we don't already have one, but I'd like to, like, sort of refurbish our container. By container, I mean some clarity about... some discussion about the situation here, such that you... such as you feel more free to express yourself and more free to respond to each other.

[13:24]

So, for example, last week I said, I'm coming to get you. And I think I said, you're welcome to come and get me too. Did I say that part? You said no? You said you're welcome to come and get me. Did I? I thought so. But anyway, I just wanted to say, for example, that. But I don't know if you're welcoming me to come and get you. I said I'm coming to get you, but really what I mean is I'm coming to get you if you're ready. Or I'm coming to get you if you're willing to find out if you're ready. but you're also welcome to come and get me. And I wondered if you welcome each other to come and get each other. And then I wonder if we understand that if somebody comes to get us or expresses themselves to us, if we understand that we have their permission to respond to them and how we can respond to them.

[14:33]

And so I'd like to talk about these kinds of things to open up the meeting for meeting. And I have a couple other things to say, but Lynn wants to say something now. Yes, Lynn? I'm feeling some strong self-expression up here. Yes? Oh, to get me? Get to me? Why do you think me? I'd like to say, before people help Lynn, we need to know if Lynn's up to be helped. Yeah, can these people express themselves to you? Yes. You're up for it? Ready for it? Yes, I am.

[15:37]

Okay, now, this is going to be a test case. Are people up to hear from the people who have given us this gift? Do you understand, Lynn? Do you want to hear from the people who gave us this gift? This gift? Yeah. Yes, I do. Okay. The gift givers are welcome to express themselves. What do you say to that, Lynn? Wait a second. Are the gift givers ready for Lynn's response to what you just did? Because she might have something rather intense to say to you. Are you ready, gift givers? Are the gift givers afraid? Are you drug slippers, you gift givers? Huh? Are you guys afraid of Lynn?

[16:39]

No. No. Do you welcome Lynn? I welcome her. Where are the other gift givers? Squeal. I think squeal, but they'll have to reveal themselves. Would the other gift givers please identify themselves? Just one? Just Brian, that's it? Who was that over there? Jesse? Elena? Wow. Okay. Is that it, those four? Emmanuel? Is that it, Emmanuel? Just you five? Okay. Would you like to tell Lynn what this is about? Do you have any more you'd like to say, Lynn?

[17:56]

I would say this was in reference to a previous conversation. And if that's not so, well, I would feel that it's an expression of love only. But there must be some thought come to it if it's in reference to a previous conversation. So I still would like to know one or two. You'd like to know the previous conversation? There are discursive elements appearing in this world, but I'd like you to consider carefully whether you really want to get involved in that discursive element. You know?

[19:03]

Do you want to, like, have something, some commentary on this that you can grasp, rather than just dealing with this awesome event? It's very awesome. As a matter of fact, I was sitting in here when it was erected. And I didn't open my eyes. I just had no idea what it was. And I acted like I was sitting. There was this beautiful blue boat in it. But my discursive mind was unsatisfied. There was a discursive thought, I, I, Lin, the worthy one or unworthy one, is not satisfied with this situation just being sitting there nakedly, unadorned by discursive explanation. Is that right? At this moment, in relationship to the event, there is that feeling. Yes. Are you willing to let go of that thought? Yes. Okay. Is everyone else willing to let go of it?

[20:07]

Are you ready to worship this event? It's a new religion called strawberry. Just strawberry. I thought rosebud. You thought rosebud? Is there a mind which is not dwelling on rosebud? Is that mind been given birth to, the one that doesn't dwell on rosebud? Yes. All right. Do you need anything to continue this practice of not dwelling on rosebud? Does anybody else need anything to continue this practice of not dwelling on anything including rosebud and rose strawberry? Maya, and then Catherine, and then Maheen, and then Jesse.

[21:14]

Yes, Maya. Pardon? You mean how to pronounce it? Let's see. In Japanese, I would pronounce it... I think it's... Because Mu Sho Ju. And how do you say it in Chinese, Andy? Mu So Ju. Very close. Mu So Ju. Mu So Ju. And in Japanese, Wu So Ju. Wu So Ju. Or Wu So Ju. No, Wu So Ju. In Japanese, almost the same. Mu instead of Wu. And So and Ju. Huh? I think it's, I mean both, but I'd say, I think it sounds better to say so. Wu so ju. What?

[22:18]

This means like there isn't any. This is like that which abides or that there isn't anything on which you abide. There is the mind which has nothing on which it abides, or nothing on which it lives or dwells. This is the Diamond Sutra, and that's what this teaching is coming from, in a sense, in terms of the Prajnaparamita literature. One of the things I would like to suggest also, one of the implications of, which this class often gives us the chance to practice, is that, so the first, in some sense, the first sense of the first kind of letting go is letting go, this kind of, this is, in some sense, this is the primary, this is the beginning, this one.

[23:30]

This is like the primary release. the releasing of anything to dwell on. And the next kind of release is kind of a release, this kind of like is to release like, like examples of this would be like to release the ideas of good and bad, let go of the ideas of good and bad. Not to forget them or reject them, not to dwell on them or cling to them, just let them go. So, and that's part of also the container is, without rejecting the bodhisattva precepts, relax the forehead. Without rejecting the bodhisattva precepts, and without clinging or tightening to them, without dwelling on them, receive them, and don't dwell on them.

[24:38]

Receive them and don't dwell on them, which means you receive good and bad, but you don't dwell on them. So you're not holding to any set idea of how this class should go or what our relationship should be. You may have many ideas like, well, I think I would like our relationship to be in accord with the Bodhisattva precepts. Fine. Now let go of that. You have that value. You probably won't forget it. Then let go of it. Release. Don't dwell on it. Don't dwell on it. Bodhisattvas don't, aren't dwelling on, they're not dwelling on things. That's the first level of letting go. Next one is let go of, two ways of putting it. One is let go of what might be relevant to this class. So sometimes there's a little bit of a struggle.

[25:44]

Sometimes people think, could we talk about the case? Or could we talk about the introduction? Could we talk about the verse? Could somebody please say something about Zen? Could somebody like at least say, occasionally say Yunmen or something just for my benefit? And I feel like, no problem. But try to let go of any limit you have to what might be relevant to this case. Because you might be afraid to speak because you aren't sure that what you say is relevant to this case. And then you might wish somebody else would shut up because what they're saying is not relevant to this case. Or you might try to copy somebody because you think what they said was relevant, so you kind of want to get on their bandwagon of relevancy. So there is some sense of relevance that probably always will be like, okay, this is too much.

[26:50]

This is like going over the edge about what this class is about. We never said you could put this strawberry thing up in the Kohan class. We never said this was relevant to... what we're doing here, did we? This was not included necessarily in our idea. A couple of weeks ago, we hung the names of Buddhas up there. So you know that you can hang names of Buddhas up there. You can say Namu, such and such Buddha at Segaki ceremony. But what about the strawberry thing? So I really appreciate somebody putting this up here. I wondered how, for example, how other people feel. Like, for instance, how does the abbess feel about it? Well, I'm feeling better about it. You are? At first you're what? At first I thought it was a mistake. A big mistake.

[27:52]

Thank you. Anybody else have any comments about what they've gone through with this thing? Oh, there's that one, yeah. No, but that's a good one. Yeah, that's... What? What? No, she didn't ask me to tell it. She told me the story. She told me the story. And that story about the strawberry is a story. And both these stories about strawberries are about this. But before we go to that, I just want to mention that that's another thing which I think I would like to actually kind of have that as something that we don't dwell on, but that we consider to practice with, and that is to let go of our sense of where it's relevant up to here, and then at that point, stop being relevant to our class, and we let go of that

[28:57]

a place where the relevance stops and where the irrelevance starts. You probably won't forget where that line is, but just let go of it. And I would suggest that we make a place where that would be all right. But part of it being all right would be to mention, part of letting it go would be also, it'd be okay to mention, I just think, I feel like that was irrelevant. You have just moved into irrelevance. That would be okay to mention. That could be relevant, too. That was a little hard for you? Linnea? Was that tough, that last little shift there? Did you say you weren't doing anything? You went like this. Here's what you did. You went... That's not like you did something bad.

[30:02]

It was the kind of thing I thought, didn't you get it? But it's okay. You just don't move a muscle. Don't move a muscle and see if that'll work. Because then I say, what are you holding still for? Why are you frozen? Why are you frozen? So... I just want to say this too. So part of the training in this wisdom is to not dwell on anything. Another part is that Nagarjuna says, for she's a jolly good fellow. You got it. For she who is a jolly good fellow... emptiness is relevant. Right.

[31:05]

And when emptiness is relevant for her, then everything is relevant. When emptiness is the thing that's relevant for you, then everything's relevant. Then there's nothing that's not relevant. Then wherever you go and whatever you meet, it's relevant. It's like, okay, this is like Dharma time. Hello. Everything gets your utmost respect and devotion. All things are like that because nothing's irrelevant to the practice. It isn't like, okay, no, no, we don't practice with this. This we get rid of. So everything's a dharma dharma means everything's relevant to practice for one to whom emptiness is relevant. So if you want to make emptiness relevant, practice that way with all things. If everything's relevant, then you have now entered into the emptiness relevance group. Vice versa, for one to whom emptiness is not relevant, nothing is relevant. Now you might say, wait a minute.

[32:09]

I don't think I've gotten that far in the past so that emptiness is relevant, but I think some things are relevant. When you think something's relevant, at that time, emptiness disappears. is somewhat in your life. Relevance is the thing. But most of us have some limits to relevance, which means we have some limits to how relevant we think emptiness is. We're part-time emptiness practitioners. So I think that would be also a good thing to do, to create the container, is to see if we can practice letting go of our sense of what might be relevant to say and what might be relevant to consider relevant. What other people do, too. That's another thing. And another aspect of this is, in particular, try to let go of the distinction between your suffering and other people's suffering.

[33:15]

And that's a tough one. It's really scary. Like this morning, somebody was telling me something about Auschwitz, and I just thought of this funny thing to say, but I didn't dare say it because I thought her suffering was different from my suffering, so I couldn't say this really kind of thing I thought was really funny. So I missed this chance to tell kind of a good little joke, but I just thought, no, you can't joke about Auschwitz. Unless you've been there, you know, like if you've been an inmate, then you can joke. But otherwise, it's like, but there's still some feeling like, you know, well, I didn't, their suffering is different from mine. So then kind of like you can't make that mistake. You can't do that rude thing, which comes from like seeing something funny. It's tough, you know. but it's kind of like a little box, a box of, well, I don't get, you know, I didn't go to Auschwitz, so, you know, like, I can't, I don't know what that suffering is like, so I got to, like, be really careful around everybody that has ever been to Auschwitz or knew anybody in Auschwitz or, you know, so I'm kind of, like, out of it, you know, I got to be kind of, like, good boy.

[34:38]

Mia? I was wondering what the difference is You're not? Okay. Done? Okay, great. You already came back, but it's okay. It's okay. Well, you might not feel something's appropriate and still feel like, well, it's relevant. Like somebody might bring up something about the koan, and you feel like, well, that wasn't really the right time to bring it up, but you feel like, well, at least it's about the koan, so it's relevant to the class, even though you should be talking about some other time. But some people bring up things in this class which you might think have nothing to do with what we're talking about, so why don't they, you know, geez, you know, this is not relevant.

[35:40]

But sometimes people feel like that. But at the same time, I don't think it's irrelevant for people to try to get us to be relevant. That's okay, too. Gordon? Is that your hand there? Yeah, okay, yeah. I appreciate your effort to revert to the data. and I thought my own experience and I was especially interested to come up with a question last week about whether or not we were willing to invite each other and get each other. Yes. And I think about the world. You're talking about the disrespectful, perhaps even uncommon, to make jokes when someone's talking about Auschwitz.

[36:45]

And I'm sort of wondering what the boundary is here. One of my ideas, which I had some attachment to, it's about being kind to one another. And rather than my saying to Jeff, I think you're full of shit, I might instead say, Jeff, you say that again, I didn't understand you. And so I'm just... So I'm just talking about that. I see from your two conflicting constructions, one of which is nothing is out of bounds, everything is relevant, everything is appropriate. No, I'm not saying nothing is out of bounds and everything is appropriate. I'm just saying consider... How do you feel about letting go of the limits of what you think are relevant or appropriate? I'm not saying there isn't anything that's inappropriate or irrelevant.

[37:48]

But I'm saying actually most people do have a sense of what's inappropriate and irrelevant. Most of us do have a sense like, that seems irrelevant. So there already is a sense that something's irrelevant. I'm not telling you that you're wrong when you think something's irrelevant, and that really there isn't, that doesn't make any sense. I'm just saying, how about considering letting go of that? And then, and we're just, in this, could we, wouldn't we like to try that a little bit here? Not to say there isn't anything, because if there isn't anything, that we consider irrelevant. In other words, if we don't have any border on our sense of relevance, then there would be nothing to let go of. But I'm talking about an actual practice of letting go, not a practice of saying there isn't anything to let go of. We might realize that in the end, but that would be kind of insulting to our phenomena.

[38:51]

That would be kind of like saying, this isn't there, my sense of relevance, my sense of I don't want you to do that anymore because it doesn't seem appropriate to this class or relevant to this class. So I'm not saying there isn't anything. I'm saying would we like to experiment with letting go of that sense because part of what can happen there is you can be released to express yourself in ways without checking so much about what you're saying. Okay? Does that make some sense? It does. My personal answer is yes. Yeah. You can still try to... This is all, I think, in the spirit. Part of the container also is in the spirit. Maybe we understand it's in the spirit of the Bodhisattva precepts. It's in the spirit of kindliness and protecting each other from harm. That's what this is all about. But it's possible to harm ourselves and others by not expressing ourselves You know, like, if you feel something and you don't tell me, in some sense, you harm our relationship, maybe.

[39:57]

And sometimes if you tell me something, even if it's difficult for me to hear, you may actually revitalize our relationship and help it. And so sometimes things happen here where people feel like they really would like to say something to someone, but they're not sure it's relevant, and I'm trying to encourage that. Okay? Okay? So I just think it's possible to, if you had some thought, and you think it's not necessarily irrelevant, but you think it might be harmful, I'm not saying do a harmful thing if you think it's harmful, but it might not be irrelevant for you to find some way to deal with that material, and that might not be irrelevant to the class, for you to work with that in a way that doesn't harm you or the other person. that working that out might not be relevant to any koan we're working even though you might think well this is something we should work out some other place not in a koan class and maybe it's true that you should work it on if you ask everybody everybody everybody might say yeah please work on it in some place else but still it might have been relevant to bring it up and find out that we don't want you to talk about it here that might be so i i'm just saying so that make more sense

[41:19]

Yes, and I think what I was saying, and just my experience, and maybe something I need to go look at, is that I personally felt, not only in our experience, which I had some charge about, but also in other things that I observed. But although I admired a spirit of ruthless honesty, I also had a depth sense of the spirit not being as kind as would have been my present. That's what I'm supposed to do. And also, to be real, I also need to add a footnote to that, that I have a teacher whom I admire a great deal on most days. And I've been working with teachers from their response, which I bring to my ear that it's not necessarily about what you did, but my question, not the question.

[42:32]

I don't know if anyone else in here has shared that same experience of not feeling as much kindness as we might look for. That could just be me. But as we do, we are both engaged, coming after each other. That's my personal request. Thank you. Andy, and then Anna, and then Lisa. I feel that last week when he said that he'd rather not take the parts, that's okay. And I'm not gonna have to do it. I feel that most people in the past probably understood that to me. OK.

[43:38]

Well, my point is, I feel that that was, you were asking the class whether or not the class would approve that. And I think the fact that the class came back to speak tends to indicate that people came back to you. And I think that implicit in what you were saying is that we could go some places where the class hasn't gone before. And I think that it makes sense that people came back to know you. Okay, thank you. And could I say some things in response to what you said? Number one, I understand that you were surmising what this mass assembly means, namely that they might be coming back for what I brought up. But you can be sure about yourself. You came back, I guess, for that. Is that right?

[44:42]

You're up for that. Let's check to see if everybody is. Would the people who are up for this please stand up? Okay. I'm also sitting down while standing up. Okay, so it looks like... That was really relevant. Thank you. Thank you. So it looks like you're by and large right, except for a few which we'll kindly inquire about later. And I want to know if you thought that what Elenia said to you was kind. But do you think it was kind?

[45:50]

Did you feel kind when you said it, Elenia? Was there kindness there? You felt freer? Do you want to know how it was for Andy to hear that? I definitely would. I definitely would, but I'd also like to know if you'd like to know. You're fine? Do you want to know how Andy felt about what you said? But you're not... I understand what you're saying is you're not saying, yes, I would like to know. Do you want to know how I feel about you? How? Would you please say?

[46:55]

I feel like I'm caring for you. And part of me caring about you is I'd like to know how you feel about Andy. And I'd like to know if you're interested in Andy. And if you're not... Huh? Now you are? Okay. yeah do you mind me prying your heart open do you mind me prying your heart open no i thought i thought it was simply expression of fear that uh Frankly, I felt a fear that I was trying to put the class in a good place, but some people aren't willing to go, and I wanted to do it.

[48:07]

And it's true, I was making a good point. I felt that a class response was... Pardon me? Yeah, I felt... a little bit annoyed at first, but then I felt that she was making the point that you don't know the right. I felt, and then it occurred to me that she was making the point you don't have the right to speak in the class. Right, and that kind of hurt. That's true. My point is that the class responded to you, and that is my point. Right, but earlier, before we got into that, It kind of hurt a little bit that she was telling you, maybe, that maybe she was telling you that she accused you, maybe, you thought, of speaking for the class. Just a little bit. It didn't look like it hurt that much.

[49:10]

Actually, it was... Right. That's what I felt like. I have to deal with this feel for it, and this requires me to pay attention, that's all. I felt that that's my strong point. There was, you know, somewhere it was like, don't speak for the class. Well, I can't speak for the class anyway. Right. But anyway, there was kind of like a spear into the body of Andy. A small one. That actually went right through. Yeah. Now, it is, I don't, I, if anybody speaks before they think, they might send a spear into somebody. It's possible. It's possible. I can speak, man. I'd just like to say, I guess it wasn't a spear. I guess it did hit him.

[50:20]

it warms him, and it feels good. And Andy has a really interesting look on his face right now. okay would anyone like to speak for Liz okay I think he threw something out in the middle of the room.

[51:28]

That's a response to a question. I don't know if we're fighting out right now, if it's safe or not, so that maybe we can actually make the commitment from a place of experience and just surmising. It might be like, how are you? there will be times I know I will say something that gets blurred out. I know it. I'd like actually to see if we can try to speak without deliberation here. And it's a little bit dangerous to do so, but I'd like to, you know, at least maybe have certain sections of the class, maybe we could have, okay, for five minutes or ten minutes we could speak without deliberation. And then we could have like another session where we'd like pick up the pieces. You know, and then like everybody who spoke listens to how it was for the other people. Denny and Grace and Mia. I was in a group and when we spoke for other people, we would go and put our hand on their shoulder.

[52:31]

So maybe that's a suggestion. Do you want to make that suggestion? I'm making that suggestion. Well, that's a suggestion. And is that okay with people? Somebody puts their hand on your shoulder if they speak for you? No. Thanks for the suggestion. Grace? So I just want to say that I had no idea With all due respect, may I comment on what you said? I don't think there has to be a time limit to your appreciation, even if you want it to come down at a certain time.

[53:31]

You can appreciate it forever and still wish it would come down at 9 o'clock. It's coming down. Mia? And then Susan? Susan? I forgot what I was going to say. I don't mind the idea of . I think I might . If you think about interacting with people in certain ways, you're afraid you'll hurt them. Yeah. So there's, huh? Yeah. It isn't that every communication is going to hurt people.

[54:46]

It's just that there is that danger. And if we avoid danger entirely, we will not be able to communicate fully. We can sometimes communicate, but basically every communication could be dangerous. So I think we should just recognize there's a dangerous situation, but I feel that with all of us together, if we all help, even if somebody speaks very skillfully and very kindly, it still might hurt someone, and that person who's hurt... may or may not be able to tell that person that they were hurt, and we might be able to help the person. If we sense that that's the case, we could help, we can assist. And if there is some hurt, we can support the person, both persons, and they can get through this and learn how to do this. I think so. But it requires that not just the two people are talking have the courage to talk, but sometimes one or both of them are somewhat incapacitated.

[55:52]

We can help them. So I think we can take care of it. Susan? So you were talking about speaking without deliberation and then picking up the pieces. I'm not sure I quite understand that idea. Why is that skillful, or where is the skill in that? Well, there might be not much skill in the speaking. Okay? And then you speak, and then you find out you made a mistake, and by finding out you made a mistake, you learn something. And then, because you learned something, the next time you speak, it might be more skillful. And then you speak again, and maybe it is more skillful, but still maybe you get some feedback, even though it's more skillful, and then it becomes more skillful. But if we hold back all the time and never say anything, that's definitely not skillful. But It just stays not skillful.

[56:53]

But if we express it, our lack of skill, in a situation where people are being invited to give us feedback, and our friends want to help us, we can see our mistake. And when we see our mistake, we see Dharma, and we learn, and we evolve. And being able to speak without deliberation also means that you're not checking all the time to think whether this is relevant, whether this is smart, whether this is clever, whether this is kind, and so on. Now, if you have a thought in your mind and you think, this is really mean and this is going to hurt people, you don't have to deliberate. You already know it's going to be mean. You don't say it. It's not a matter of deliberation. It's like thinking, well, should I say this mean thing or not? You just, you don't want to say it. Yeah. I couldn't let, no, I couldn't let go.

[57:57]

I couldn't really let go of the thing of, you know, I'm not allowed in that club of people who have been horribly tortured by that history. I have not somehow... I don't feel like I'm allowed to be relaxed about that thing. And those people who feel in the in-group, they also probably don't feel very relaxed either, but some of them anyway feel allowed to relax and they can joke about it. So the people who live in Sarajevo can make Sarajevo jokes. But people who don't live in Sarajevo don't usually dare to do it. I didn't dare do it. It wasn't a real bad joke. I'll tell you the joke now. It was a joke. It was about this person from Zen Center who went to Auschwitz. She went to visit, and then she was going to stay in Auschwitz, you know, stay there for two days and come back the next two days. And I thought, I wonder if they're staying in the Auschwitz Hilton.

[59:00]

But I didn't say that because I thought, well, it's kind of, you know, maybe mean to say that. But I was just thinking, you know, or is there a Holiday Inn now at Auschwitz where people can stay? Huh? Yeah, well, I didn't. And there's a lot of other jokes I don't say, too, which you're missing out on. But not too many good ones. Yes? I'd like to finish a point I realized I didn't finish in my previous talk. OK. You're actually a member of the club. You make jokes about Auschwitz. But you're not a member of the club. I think that you regard yourself as a member of a different club also, which is a club that everything you do, you do for the benefit of beings. And I think that you didn't not say a joke because you're not a member of the office, but you said it for the sake of the people that are members of the office.

[60:05]

And I think that that's the way we work. And I think that's the basis of this class. And I think that's why when people come to this class, You know, some of us are ready to come in and go where he wants to go, and go into that new territory. Because we know that that's fundamentally not a contribution of what this class is. You know, we have a contribution. It's not necessarily breaking down. But we're going to come in here, and we're going to say things to the benefit of the beings. And we're not going to eat on little things for a time. They really are for the benefit of the people, in a really big way. And we're willing to go someplace to do that, because we'd like to do that. I agree with you completely and I appreciate that you are letting me into that group with you. But I have one more thing to say. And that is, even though I'm in that group you talked about, I still want to be in the other group that I don't feel I'm in yet.

[61:20]

And it's not entirely for them to let me in, it's for me to let go of the idea that I'm not in that group. It's also that I'm sort of not, I'm not like completely letting, I'm caught on that, that I'm not in that group. But you're right. The reason why I didn't say that to this person was because I'm in this other group, which I do feel like I'm in, and I have let go of the distinction of not being in that group. So I'm in that group. So that keeps me from charging into situations where I don't feel that I've let go of the thing yet. But there's a little bit of holding there, and I hope to let go of that someday. I don't know how I'm going to do it, but There's a little bit of a thing like that. And same with some other situations where I feel like I haven't let go of the distinction between certain kinds of suffering and mine. So I'm working on that from the point of view of this group that you recognize that we have all joined. And also I would like to say that if anybody has not entered the group that Andy's referring to, I'd like to know about that.

[62:31]

If you're not in that group, Yes? Yes. Thank you. Anna? Pardon? No, but before you had your hand raised, too.

[63:33]

Okay. I know. Is it, is it, is it, you still, you want to bring it up still? What was it? Well, like you said, it's when you are not, No, I'm not saying you shouldn't be deliberate. I said not to deliberate. And there was no check.

[64:35]

Experiment with not checking before you speak. Not checking and selecting so much. At least in this class. Experiment with that. And if there's some difficulty with that, then we're inviting the people for whom it's difficult for them to try to help us with how that was for them. Or that's... Because I think usually there seems to be plenty of deliberating going on here. I don't feel there's a lack of deliberating. I think it's a little bit too much in some cases. So you can be deliberate in an undeliberated way. In other words, you don't deliberate and something very deliberate comes out. But you might also not deliberate. Something really kind of tentative and shaky might come up. That's fine too. But sometimes if you think beforehand and you check, you might say, oh boy, if I speak now, it's going to be really tentative and weak. But if you didn't deliberate, it might come out there. And then suddenly somebody, a big strong person says something really weak or something gets out there.

[65:40]

I'm trying to get the stuff out there, okay? And deliberate's fine. But see if you can get deliberate out there without deliberating. In other words, no second thoughts. So I think Elisa and then Carol. Mahin. Mahin. I call them Mahin. Would you come sit by me at Mahin? Yes, Elisa. I was thinking about the difference I don't like you. It was like, oh my gosh, so, it was so solid of a statement.

[66:40]

It was so completely to the self, and everything felt like that when it happened. And once I sort of got over there, sort of gasped in an in-breath, I said, actually, just be with him. Because he was absolutely, he was absolutely in his own body, but he was out there in this field. And so, For me, and I'm sitting here right now, it's hard for me. It's hard for me when we're so... I'll speak for how it feels to me in this class. I just feel like it's hard for us to just not be safe or try to preserve ourself or sort of... And we use these small links and stuff around ourselves so that you don't actually have that kind of presence that this spirit took the courage to have with me, which is to actually completely go and have a talk with that. And that's, it's just hard.

[67:43]

You welcome, but you welcome the people in class to be that way with you? I also find that there's a distinction between when someone says something to me, and it feels like they're projecting all over me, which is not what this child was doing. This child is just exactly saying all about in front of me. If someone says, I really like what you're saying right now, that feels really safe to me. And I know where they are, and I can somehow define where I am in relation to that. Whereas if they say, you know, you're being really a jerk, I feel more trapped by that experience. How are you feeling, Carol? Pardon? I'm a little upset. You look upset. What's happening? You have to do what?

[68:47]

Could you speak up, please? Is that okay, Andy, if she speaks to you? Excuse me, Carol. I can barely hear you. Could you? But then I realized how authentic it was to have anyone put words on why I need or an idea of a description. I just thought it was without description for me. That's pretty hard to get. and it slowly feels different.

[69:51]

But if I say anything, the descriptions I ask, especially if I'm not there, I will feel like I'm falling into my world, you know. It's an assumption on my part, based on what I thought about it. It's actually up here. You say it, and I'll take it. If I did, we'd take it. Well, yeah. Thank you. Why do you force out the doubts? You come to Sunday service.

[71:01]

There would be a real assumption on my part that I am extrapolating what's saying. But to me, and I apologize, people really don't feel that way. But I know it would not be time if I didn't say that I think that I wouldn't live without one hand. I think a lot of people I always preface my remarks by saying, some people may come here because it's practical and they feel they have to show up for an absolute or other reason. For me, it's like, if you look back in ancient, in old records of death, there were teachers that were really not at all pleasant to hear from.

[72:14]

And I often thought, why do people become, you know, be around those people? But you know, they're not close to experience. And, you know, people, maybe they're, they're 20 or something. Why would they, why would they come here? And I wonder about that. Why would the tradition have that? The only thing I can come up with when I think about that is desire for their own personal liberation and release. Would you speak up, please, Carol? Yeah. However, I do have the role of .

[73:24]

No. This is a very . Yeah. Well, no. I like . It's not like they swept up in . I'm curious. You told us that Andy's really affected, not your business. You haven't told us your business. How about Kamis Mothers? What?

[74:46]

Learn to blurt. I love that. Blurt out? Yeah. Blurring out. Blurring out. Andy, are you up for another comment that you're getting a lot of? I'm definitely not. Do you come here because you're supposed to? Where did this supposed to come from?

[76:03]

Do you have any idea? Well, I can sit in here. You can sit out in the hall. Yeah, but it's not that you can sit in there, right? There's a scrubber in the wall. Yeah, I know here, because it's a psychological circus. And that in its own way is like, hmm, well, I don't have TV. And I love you. You love me, but what? You love me, but what? I love you, but I think one of the things that makes a teacher great is when they can focus in an anamorphic group. And I find that what you've done is obliterate focus to see what will happen. Interesting analysis. Let's see.

[77:13]

Elizabeth. Oh, sure, yeah. Elizabeth and Arlene and Elenia. But Andy would like to respond. My response is, I'll try to be very brief. If people are ... But I think it is a legitimate question for people to ask themselves. I'm talking to you. I think it's a legitimate question. And it's usually my understanding, correct me if this runs off, my understanding is that it's part of the Zen tradition to pose that to people. I think that, and so I think that, you know, that would be part of my view. And I think, well, what I, what I express is what I view as part of our result.

[78:17]

So. Andy, can you figure anything? I haven't heard anyone disagree with what you said. I think they're talking about how you're saying Elizabeth and Arlene? Pardon? Excuse me. I keep thinking that Catherine's name is Elizabeth. I'm sorry. Those dignified English names. So Catherine and Elizabeth? Arlene, your name's been changed to Elizabeth.

[79:19]

Go ahead, please, Catherine. Anybody want her to come and get you? Arlene? Yeah, I've been sort of almost falling out of my skin tonight because I've been wanting so much to comment on the... I could love a couple. They are... They are... This is an art teacher speaking, by the way. Would you people be willing to sell this to Arlene if she... I agree.

[80:27]

I was wondering if the tea was done from the bottom up. It's hot now. And I would like to thank the people who made this artwork very much. I think it's beautiful. And I hope that your great expression of creativity did not hurt anyone's feelings. And if it did, I apologize for encouraging you to be so creative and so on and so forth. I hope it didn't hurt anyone. And I'm glad to see that the abbess will take it down immediately. And also, I'd like to just tell you a story at the end. It's a story, which I think just happens to be kind of a good story. Well, I like to tell six stories, excuse me. One is a story about my daughter. And actually, I'd like to tell two stories about my daughter.

[81:31]

But I know you want to go to bed, so you can leave whenever you want, but I'll just tell the story. I was at the beach one time at Lake Anza in Berkeley with my daughter and my wife, her mother, and a little boy who was at my daughter's birth, who was like four months older than her. And my daughter and this little boy were naked on the beach. They were like just barely able to talk, maybe two, two and a half. And my daughter pointed to the little naked boy, And she said, what's that? And the little naked boy's mother said, that's a penis. And my daughter was eating strawberries at the time. And then the mother of the little boy pointed to my daughter, and she said, what's that? Do you know what she was pointing at on my daughter?

[82:36]

And my daughter said, it's a strawberry. And being a student of the Diamond Sutra, I thought, now that is the logic of unsupported thought. That's the logic of this. You know? You don't rely on anything. So... And then when my daughter was about 14, 13, 14, how many years ago were we giving talks in there? About 11 years ago? Yeah. So my daughter was about 13 when we were giving talks in there, and one morning she came to my talk. And she sat in the front, you know, in the stairs there, out there, and the beginning of the talk was about the logic of unsupported thought. which is the fact that A is A, you know, like in here, the fact that a bodhisattva is a bodhisattva is precisely the reason why a bodhisattva is not a bodhisattva.

[83:44]

Or the fact that A is A is precisely, or the reason why A is A is precisely the reason why A is not A. That is illogic, unsupportive thought. My daughter yawned and walked out of the talk at that time. But she learned that, like that. And so now she knows all the rest of her life what the Lodric van Spoor thought is, even though she was one of the people who taught me what that meant about eleven years before that. She demonstrated that you can respond from this place, and it's quite lovely and liberating Because everybody knows what a penis is, right? And what a strawberry is. But not many people know, understand that a penis is not a penis, and a strawberry is not a strawberry. So you're not limited to either one of them. Right, Michael?

[84:48]

I'm just thinking this is on the tape. I just think it's funny. I'm just trying to keep you entertained. And then I would also like to ask Jackie about if she didn't stand up, so does that mean you're not up for this? Is that what you meant when you didn't stand up? Well, I'm in a different phase. I'm trying to edit now, would I say. You're trying to edit? More than who? More than before. I feel like speaking my mind gets me in trouble a lot. And you don't want to get in any more trouble? You don't want to get in trouble a lot? Well, I'm testing a different, I'm experimenting with a different way of being.

[85:54]

What's the new way? Editing a little bit more. Oh, really? How's it going? I guess I'm not doing it right now, am I? Are you enjoying this? What's that? Are you enjoying this way? Are you enjoying this way? Well, I'm feeling my heartbeat faster. Well, I invite you in this class to be this way. Do you want me to be this way? Yes. Sure. Let it all hang out. Through therapy. Well, I've almost finished stamping these little pieces of calligraphy, so maybe we could end the class now.

[86:56]

I just want to say. Yes? I appreciate what Jack said. What who said? Jack said. Yes. Yes, she might have. It suddenly occurred to me that when I feel that immediate need for added thought is when I don't say it. I mean, if I ever felt that with respect to humanity, that really means rock-a-pop. And I get myself to go, well, I was going to say that, but I'm in trouble, I'm not. Just have that thought. I don't believe it. I'm glad you survived up to this point. And I didn't know you were going to stamp those things. Right. Or I would have stood up. You mean you want one? Now that you know they're getting stamped? Yeah. When you come up to... You wanted one? I'll give you one. But when you come up here, I'm going to sing to you. Fred, yes, please.

[88:00]

Please stand up. Thank you. I just wanted to ask each speaker who spoke up now whether each of them thinks that they were right. And do they still think that they are right? And what? And do they still think that they are right? And Lee, congratulations. I'm glad to have you here tonight. It's been great to have you. See you later. And Fred, of course, Fred was also asking himself that question, whether he thought he was right. Right? Yes. Yeah. And, of course, I know the answer to that question. So I plan to come here next week, and if you come, I'll give you more presents. I enjoyed this class very much.

[89:06]

I hope you enjoyed it at least as much as I did, or more. So Andy, Andy, you have a disciple. May our intention...

[89:28]

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