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Wisdom Embodied: Koans in Zen

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This talk explores two distinct approaches to koan study within Zen practice—one instrumental and the other as an enactment of wisdom. The discussion emphasizes the Soto and Rinzai schools of Zen, highlighting misconceptions about their use of koans. The talk delves into the teachings of Dōgen, advocating for a non-manipulative engagement with koans that embodies wisdom and compassion, contrasting with systematic approaches that focus on achieving insight or enlightenment.

  • "Eihei Dogen": A foundational figure in Soto Zen, whose writings frequently engage with koans. The talk references Dogen's approach to koan study as a practice of wisdom rather than an instrumental tool.

  • "The Gateless Gate" (Mumonkan) by Wumen Huikai: Mentioned in the context of the speaker discussing various cases and approaches to koan study.

  • "The Record of Linji" (Rinzai Roku) and its relation to koan study: While not directly referenced, the text and its teachings are indirectly contrasted against Soto practices in the broader discussion on Zen.

  • Mention of "The Heart Sutra" and its teachings on emptiness and wisdom, which underpin discussions of non-instrumental practice in Zen.

  • "The Lotus Sutra": Cited regarding the motivation of Buddhas, emphasizing their desire to enlighten beings as a compassionate act that transcends worldly concerns.

AI Suggested Title: Wisdom Embodied: Koans in Zen

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Side: A
Speaker: Tenshin Reb Anderson
Location: Green Gulch Farm
Possible Title: BK of Serenity Case #56, Class 4/6
Additional text: Position Normal, Master, UR 90

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Transcript: 

I'd like to start with the way we usually start our classes of recognizing the community of people here who are new to Koan study. Is that right? How many people feel that they're kind of new to Koan study? Would I pass around the sheet for sign-ups for dinner before I start? Sign-ups for dinner before I start? And I should wait until you pass it around before I start? Sign-ups for dinner, you mean if people want to come to dinner they should sign up? Did you explain this already to people? Why don't you explain? How many people think that they would be coming to dinner before this class, would like to come to dinner before this class, besides the people who live here?

[01:31]

1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14. You can still sign up about 14 people. I'd like to... Now we're going to have a koan class and then we'll have another one this summer. and probably another one this fall. So this year we have at least three classes probably studying koans. On my talk on Sunday I mentioned that seven years ago when we were in another golf crisis we were on case number nine of this book which was apropos to the crisis because it was about nonchalant holding up the cat. So I guess we've been doing this for about eight years now, eight or nine years, and we're on case 56 of 100.

[02:43]

And case 56 is a very good case to stop on because when I read case 56, I see actually I see in that case a description of two different approaches to practice of Buddhism, but also two different approaches to koan study in the story. So it's kind of nice that we happen to be on that case. Atasahara, this fall, last fall, I discussed Case 56 with the monks there, and I'd like to talk about what these different approaches to koan study are. First of all, I'd like to say that many of you may have heard that in Soto Zen, let me first of all say, since some of you may not know, there are two main branches.

[04:04]

The two main branches of Zen in Japan are Soto and Rinzai. That's what they're called. And there's also another kind of Zen school there called Obaku, but By far the largest number of practitioners are of the Soto and the Rinzai schools. One generalization that is made about these two schools is that Rinzai studies koans and Soto does not study koans. I would like to say that I think that's not a distinction to hold to. I think it's true that many Soto Zen priests do not study koans and that probably many or most Rinzai monks study koans for part of their training.

[05:18]

And I don't know what they do after their training, if they keep studying them or not, but I would guess that they don't, that they just go to some temple and take care of a temple, having been trained by koan study. But many Soto Zen monks do study koans, and in a sense, I don't necessarily consider myself Soto Zen, although I am a priest in a lineage which other people call Soto Zen. And some people would say that Zen Center, this Zen Center, is a Soto Zen Center. And we have strong connections with Soto Zen Center's other places. But I don't know if this is really a Soto Zen Center. And I think the most important thing is that it be a center of authentic wisdom and compassion. Or I would say enlightened wisdom, which is the wisdom of the Buddhas and the compassion of the Buddhas.

[06:27]

For me, the most important thing about this place is that it would be a place of wisdom and compassion, of great wisdom, perfect wisdom and great compassion. Perfect wisdom means wisdom that actually is the way things are. I wouldn't even say wisdom which sees the way things are, but wisdom which is the way things are. that a person, a human being, can realize the way things are, the way things actually happen. And from this realization, great compassion naturally arises. I think it's possible that studying koans might support a practice of wisdom and compassion. And that would be, for me, a good reason to study koans if they supported that.

[07:38]

If you look at the writings of the founding teacher of what is called Soto Zen in Japan. If you look at his writings, he wrote a lot, and I would guess pretty much that if you look at his different writings, you'll find that he spends a lot of his time discussing, presenting and discussing what we call koans. He had a very deep and strong connection with the koan literature. Some other teachers, however, who also have a strong connection with the koan literature have a different approach to the stories than he did. I feel that his way of working with the Khans was to study them and discuss them to help people understand reality, and in particular to use the stories to help us in our actual practice.

[09:08]

And I said use, but I hesitate to use the word use because I would actually say that what he did was he didn't use the koans for anything. That he studied them, but didn't use them. And that some other people, what they do with the stories is they use them. So one approach to these stories is a kind of dualistic approach instrumentalist approach where you use the koans to cause an effect. Another approach is you study the koans not in a kind of instrumentalist approach but as an immediate practice of enlightenment. That you study the koans because you're interested in them.

[10:14]

That you study the koans like you're taking care of a baby. That you study the koans as a practice which you consider to be wisdom and compassion, rather than study the koans to get wisdom and compassion. And the funny thing is, not the funny thing, but the kind of ironic thing is that is that Zen is known to be a school of practice which is an immediate practice, a practice which is a direct realization of wisdom and compassion, which is a direct practice of enlightenment. And yet some people who say that use the koans to cause enlightenment. They use the koans to cause a kind of breakthrough into understanding rather than studying the koans as wisdom.

[11:24]

We are studying koans as the enactment of wisdom. So again, although some people say and agree that Zen is a school of immediate awakening, of immediate practice. In other words, there's no means that you use to achieve the end of enlightenment. Still, these people who say that use the koans to effect realization. the people who have that approach in some ways seem to be the most numerous of those who are publicly studying koans in the world today. Thank you.

[12:36]

I think what I'm trying to do is I'm trying to study the koans the way I feel Dogen studied koans. And in that regard, I think the way I'm approaching these stories is something which is quite uncommon. And you being in this class, I think you are joining a kind of uncommon approach to these stories. Uncommon means that there may not be another place where this is happening this way. Again, most of the people who study koans are people who study it as part of a system, a systematic presentation of koans, where there's a certain number of koans you study in a certain order and they have a certain answer.

[14:21]

And studying the koans, again, seems to be to create a certain kind of insight And that seems to be alright, in a sense, such a practice would seem to be alright. But I'm not sure it is alright because it seems to be actually fundamentally deluded. Because again, the approach is that you're going to do something to yourself or do something with your mind such that you will be, excuse me for saying so, improved. So I feel it's a little off. And not only that, but that approach, as I say, is systematic. And the character of the system, I feel, is a power orientation.

[15:28]

that the system is basically upholding a kind of patriarchal lineage of Zen. Because it must be done this way, and it's set the way it's done, and those who have passed this way then pass it on to others, and that's the way to study. Which, again, seems fine, but I feel that, again, it's a power orientation to study rather than what I would say is more like an amateur approach. It's a professional power approach rather than rather amateur approach or a loving approach. It's an approach which would which would be concerned with who is qualified to do this and who isn't. It would be approached to prove who is authentic and who isn't.

[16:38]

And that seems to be part of the vibration that comes off the systematic instrumental approach to the study of koans, of using them to get something, rather than studying them as part of your meditation practice. So for me, the stories are perfectly good opportunities for us to encourage our meditation practice. Studying these stories are good opportunities for us to support our meditation practice. The person that had attained realization had never been presented with koans.

[17:59]

Say it again. I sometimes ask myself if a person had attained realization and had never been presented with koans, never been grown up in this culture, never been presented with koans, all of a sudden that person was presented with koans, whether that person, he or she, would know the answers to the koans? Because it's sometimes so strange. Strange and constructive. Yeah. I would say that the people who systematically present the koans might say that a realized person, if they saw the koans, would give the right answer, would give their answer. That's the question that I'm asking. Is that really valid? Yeah, I don't know. We'd have to have a realized person, show them the cons, see what the answer was, and then check with those who know the right answers.

[19:01]

Then they would tell you that was the right answer. And that would be interesting, wouldn't it? It's just off the street, you know, a Buddha off the street, never having heard anything about Zen, would just go down the koan list one after another and get the right answers that the system says are the right answers. It might be the case. I thought you were going to say, if you had a realized person and you showed them the koans, would they be interested? And I think they might be. I think they might be interested. I think those stories might be interesting even to a Buddha. When the Buddha was alive, there weren't these koans. But the Buddha, I think, my picture of the Buddha is the Buddha's interested in just about any manifestation of life. And so if somebody came up and told the Buddha some of these stories, I think the Buddha might say, hmm, that's interesting. Sounds familiar. So I think the Buddha might even say, well, that would be a good story for so-and-so.

[20:06]

in his meditation practice or that would encourage so-and-so in her meditation practice if they would study that thing. That would help them. The Buddha might feel that way. But it's also possible that the Buddha, although the Buddha might get the right answer, the Buddha might have several billion right answers. I think that's much more likely, actually, that if the people wanted to, the Buddha could go down the list and give them all the right answers, but then the Buddha could give them another set of right answers and another set of right answers. And when the people heard those right answers, which were not the right answers they were used to, they probably, they might say, wow, those are right answers, too. Wow. As a matter of fact, all the answers the Buddha gives are right answers, including, of course, no answer at all. It would probably be a good one. Pardon? Yes. Yes.

[21:22]

That's an interesting example because that's sort of... He said that one Korean Zen teacher named Sung San, after he had his awakening, he met some koans. And he said he understood them, but he didn't know how to say how he understood. And I think that's actually part of what this story, Case 56, is about. And we'll get into that, how... how that might be the case, that a realized person might not be able to give the right answers, even though they kind of understood, but they might not be able to say it's possible. Yes? Before you go on to this 56, yesterday you were talking about the cat, and that koan.

[22:27]

Yes. I didn't get it. What was that gentleman's name? Had he been there? Jojo. Right. I didn't get it. I think to do justice to your question would take the next several classes. So I think we're going to have to either you talk to me personally or we have to wait until we start the class again and get to case number nine. That's a very big story. I can't just say something little thing about it right now. So I've been talking to people for some time now about a cycle of practice which is something happening that I don't know about. I see a whole bunch of people smiling. What's it about? Anything I should know about?

[23:32]

No? Okay. So I've been talking about a kind of an imagination and practice which involves receiving the Bodhisattva precepts. And again, a lot of people who study Zen don't realize that in all those Zen stories, the people in the stories are people who have received the Bodhisattva precepts. And with the aid of the Bodhisattva precepts, with the aid of being very careful of all the things they do so that they don't harm any beings, and they respect all life, they work with these precepts, that this is their initiation into their upright sitting practice. And when they realize this state of being upright, they naturally start expressing this uprightness.

[24:38]

They start expressing this balanced way that they are. By receiving the precepts and practicing them, you gradually settle into this upright sitting, this upright way of being, which means that you don't take what's not given, for example. You don't steal. which means, not stealing means, you don't take things. And also you don't get angry, you don't push things away. You meet everything with respect, which means you don't grab anybody or push anybody away. Which means you don't possess anybody or anything including your ideas. You don't possess your ideas and you don't reject your ideas.

[25:40]

You don't believe your ideas and you don't disbelieve your ideas. You don't ignore what's happening and you don't indulge in what's happening. These are the precepts. Don't indulge in what's happening. Don't ignore what's happening. Don't take things. Don't push things away. What do you do? You face what's happening in a loving way, in a respectful way. You're attentive to everything that's happening, and you don't manipulate things. The precepts of not killing, not stealing, not lying means don't manipulate things. You tell the truth. You don't say things to people to manipulate them. You tell people the truth. The truth is not to get an effect. The truth is just to say the truth. That's called being upright. Being upright means to be honest, right? It does. You're honest, you're upright, you're balanced. The precepts guide you into this and you have this practice and with this practice of being upright you then naturally start expressing that and also from that uprightness you study what's happening.

[26:53]

You're attentive to what's happening. Now actually, you know, in actual practice most of us receive the precepts and we try to practice them and we arrive at some level of being balanced and upright, but we aren't perfectly balanced, or we're perfectly balanced for a moment, but then we lose our balance. And even though we're balanced, and even though we're not being manipulative, we can still express ourselves verbally and physically. But when we move to speak or move our body, sometimes at that time we lose our balance. And then our expression doesn't fully show our balanced state. Our expression starts to look a little bit like we're grabbing or pushing away or manipulating. Or even maybe it doesn't really look that way to some people,

[27:56]

but maybe to some other people it does and they tell you and when they tell you it shocks you and you lose your balance and then you come back again with sort of an off-balance thing. So even if we can get to this place of being upright and balanced and unprejudiced and open and vulnerable and strong all together at once it's hard to, like, be that way in a dynamic interaction. And so we train at that. And Zen practice is to try to guide ourselves with the precepts to this upright way of being and then see if we can walk and talk with it. And it's hard. And we train ourselves at this. And one of the ways to try to, like, uprightly face what's happening and dynamically interact with what's happening is to study these stories. These stories are, in some sense, very dynamic friends.

[29:02]

They do not submit to any imbalance on our part. If you try to get these stories, you have troubles. Now, of course, if you try to ignore them, you might not have as much trouble. If you just walk out of this class now and never come back, you'll be all right for a while. But if you're in the class and you try to ignore them, it doesn't work so well because it's going on and everybody's involved in it. So it doesn't quite make sense that you wouldn't be paying attention to them. So ignoring them doesn't work and sticking your head into them doesn't work. Trying to get them under control doesn't work. The only thing that works, actually, is to sit with them in a very respectful way, in a very reverent way, in a loving way. Kind of like, I care about this story, I care about all beings, and I'll just be here until you tell me your secret. And actually, even after you tell me your secret, I'll still be with you.

[30:11]

But I have a feeling you have a secret, because you don't make much sense to me yet. I have a feeling I don't completely understand you. You're a mystery. But I'm interested. I care about you. There's something very beautiful about you." To me, these koans are very beautiful. They're as beautiful as almost a living person. And this koan collection here is put together by somebody who took his most beautiful stories among the thousands he read. These are his most beautiful. And he wrote beautiful poems celebrating how beautiful the stories were. In a sense, everybody we meet is a story. We don't just meet somebody. We meet something, but we don't see what it is. It's not a thing to us until we have a story about it. And with our story, we make whatever a person is come into a thing for us.

[31:15]

But how that happens is, I say, how that happens is beauty. How we make each person we meet and how they make us, that is beauty. And how we make these stories, how they happen for us, is beauty. And the beauty of the stories and the beauty of the people we know is to be respected and it's an object of devotion, not an object of exploitation, not an object of manipulation. And if we can approach these stories in this way, then this way of approaching the stories becomes the Buddha's meditation. And that relationship, that relationship we have with the stories, hopefully then would be the relationship we have with each other. And the relationship we have with each other, which is the relationship of devotion to each other, that is Buddha's meditation.

[32:19]

Buddha's meditation is devotion to beings. But part of devotion to beings is to be aware that the being you're being devoted to, you don't just let them sit there, you have a story about them. Part of taking care of your relationship with someone is to be aware of the fact that you've got a story about them. There's nobody that you know who you don't have a story about. I say that. And being upright reveals to you what the story is that you have about the story, what the story is you have about all beings, and how that story creates what you see. And intimacy with the story by which we experience things is enlightenment. Intimacy with the way we

[33:29]

dream up the world doesn't cause us to be enlightened. It is enlightenment. And who we are right now is actually completely intimate with the process by which we dream up the world which we perceive. We are already intimate with that. It's just that we don't understand that intimacy yet. So this is a non-instrumental approach. Have the copies of the text gotten around to people yet? Does everybody have a copy of case 56? Yes, Herb? So we do bring qualities to this relationship. You were talking about uprightness and awareness

[34:33]

You bring qualities to your relationship with me? Sure. Is that what you're saying? Whatever I'm in relationship with. Well, I bring qualities to you. So, yeah. Well, I guess you could say it that way. I don't quite see that I bring qualities to you. No, no, no. If I'm sitting with you... Yes? I'm not just sitting, I'm sitting with you. I've been struggling for a bit with playing with do I generate qualities while I'm doing that or should I just drop all those qualities? You're sitting with me and what's your question? I'm sitting with you with awareness and with caring and with those kinds of qualities. Yes. That works? What works? That you're sitting here with awareness? Yeah. And what else? Caring.

[35:37]

You're caring, like, about me? You care about me? You care about my story and care about your story about me? I mean, I am your story about me, right? From your point of view. Yes. You care about the story about me? Yeah. Do you know what your story about me is? I know what I think it is. What is it? Well, it's a lot of socialized things like my teacher and that sort of thing. But it's not a pure being with you. You know what I think? I think your story of me is what you think I am. What you see over here, I say, is your story about me. Okay? That's what I'm saying.

[36:37]

If you change your story at all about me, you get a different reb. And if you get a different reb, it's not because I changed, because I'm changing all the time. It's because your story changed. That's what I'm saying. Now, you said it wasn't just a pure being with me. Okay? And I would say, I wouldn't say that when we meet somebody and we have a story about them that it's not a pure way of being with them. I would say that if you don't have a story about somebody, there's nobody there for you. Now, if you don't have a story about me, I'm not in your life. I'm still over here, like, doing my thing. Let me tell you, because I don't run out of stories. But if you don't have a story about me, you don't have a reb anymore. And when you do have a reb, that is the story. For you, I am nothing more, actually. You have no evidence for me. You may think that I'm something more than that, but you have no evidence of anything other than the story you have about me. That isn't all that I am, but for you, it's all you've got.

[37:47]

Now, to say that that isn't a pure way of being with me, I would say it's the only way you can be with another person. You can't be with another person unless you have a story about them. However, it is also the case that there is a way we are together which is prior to the stories we have about each other. However, in that prior world there aren't any people. There aren't any things. There's just the possibility of Reb and the possibility of Herb. And the reb that there's a possibility of is multitudinous because the possibility of me is the possibility of all the different people, all the different stories that you can make up about me. But until you have stories about me, you don't have me. That's what I'm saying. So I don't think that's necessarily impure. I just think that's the only way that anything can happen. That's the only kind of relationships we can have.

[38:49]

Now, why do we have to even use the word impure? I would say impure, if it applies, would have something to do with not paying attention to what we're up to. And that lack of attention, then, then the stories we're making turn into obstructions rather than the only way we can actually work together. So even if we don't look at these cases, if somebody's looking at these cases, they're there for somebody. If nobody has a story about these cases, they don't exist. The possibility, however, continues to be there. And as soon as we start thinking about these stories, one of us, there's the stories.

[39:53]

And when 100 of us think about these stories, then they're even more than they would be if one of us thought of it. You then call the relationship where there's no you and I, but there's no I and her, but there's a thousand. I think we all live in a relationship. What we call relationship is just the memory of what we've experienced. When we have a story, it's whatever we call experience is always something that's in the past. It's something that has happened, that we did, you know. There's a story. You just told a story. Because you told a story, you got a thing called whatever that story created for you. But you asked me something before you told that story. You say, what do I call what it's like before there's a story? Well, you know, I would call it, for now, for today, I'd call it chaos.

[40:59]

Chaos. I would call it reality prior to any mental imputation. And I say that the reality of the world prior to any mental imputation, there are no things, there are no experiences, there are no things. And there is a way an aspect of reality which could be called ultimate reality. It's like the heart surgery, yeah. You could say ultimate reality or an aspect of reality that's prior to us making what's happening into things. But the Buddha's teaching was not about that. The Buddha didn't teach so much about how things are before there are things.

[42:00]

The Buddha primarily taught about how we make things, how things are made. Because if you can see how things are made, then even without all these things going away, you're free right in the middle of these things. And also you have, in a sense, confidence about your intimacy with a realm that's prior to things. But you can never, you can't actually, you know, ever know the realm prior to things because there's no you to know them or them to be known. But out of this random, this world where there's no order, we, Gregory Bateson said, we make a raid, we raid things the realm of chaos and disorder, we living beings rate it and we come back with things. Our imputation, our mental imputation on the world of possibility creates things.

[43:03]

By directing our life energy in certain ways, certain possibilities go down and others go up. And Linda turns from a possibility into a thing. But because she arose by my mental imputation, she's not an independent existing thing because she depends on my mental imputation. So she can change, and I can also understand that she's dependent on me and I'm dependent on her. And then without her even going away, and without the separation between us stopping, we're not fooled by it anymore. In other words, we understand the story and we keep studying the story. But let's look at this story. This story is talking about this, I feel.

[44:08]

There's an introduction. Better to be sunk forever than to seek liberation of the saints. Devadatta experienced the bliss of the third meditation heaven while in uninterrupted hell. Uddhaka Kamaputra fell from the heaven of the summit of existence into the body of a flying wildcat. But tell me, where is their gain and loss? So in some sense this story is about, you know, is there really gain or loss? Is that what practice is about? The introduction is saying, you know, certain people gain quite a bit, but in the end all their gains really were nothing.

[45:10]

And a lot of people primarily live in terms of gain and loss? Quite a few people. Almost everybody. We could even say everybody. But it's possible. Again, even if you are personally in a life which is primarily concerned with gain, which is primarily concerned with gaining things for yourself or for those people you like, and primarily concerned with avoiding loss, even if you're involved in that, okay, it is possible to realize the Buddha way. How? How? How, if you're in such a situation, could you realize the Buddha way? Do you say confession? Well, confession is part of it, but then after confession, then what?

[46:18]

What? Yeah, but you know, she said confession, so the thing you do after confession is you receive the precepts. So here you are living in a world where you're, let's say theoretically, you are like really devoted to pretty steadfastly. And you're not very distracted about it. You're pretty concentrated on almost always being attentive to how you're going to get stuff for yourself or how you're going to do something which is going to be good for you. Pretty concentrated on that and also pretty miserable because that's what you're concentrating on and pretty concentrated on avoiding losing certain things. And in the middle of that, what do you do? You confess that's the case. You say, that's the case. Well, it's the case because you just said that was the case. This is the koan. The koan is, I am totally caught up in gain and loss. Then what do I do after that confession?

[47:22]

I say, I receive the Bodhisattva precepts. Under the circumstances of being primarily concerned with gain, I receive the precept called, don't steal. I'm totally concerned with getting stuff, so then I practice not taking anything. They go closely together. You see how they go together? I'm trying to get stuff and I practice not taking. Also I practice, I'm trying to get stuff and I practice not lying. In other words, I don't say stuff that's not true in order to get something for myself. I say the truth even if it doesn't get me something. And so on. The precepts anyway are the antidote to this situation of concern for getting stuff and avoiding losing stuff. Then I get to a place where I'm still in the situation of being primarily concerned with gain, but what? I'm just upright. What about this concern for gain and fear of loss?

[48:23]

What about that? What do I do about it? Do I notice it? Yeah. Am I attentive to it? Am I attentive to it? Yeah. Do I try to manipulate it? No. Now, the concern for gain and loss is totally into manipulating the gain and loss thing. Gain and loss, gain and loss. That's going on. But the meditation, the precept and the meditation of being upright is that you don't... Somebody's like out there trying to mess with this all the time. Somebody's like really actively arranging things for my benefit. And this guy's a mess. Do I try to manipulate him? No. I'm just attentive to him. I follow him all day long. I keep my eye on him. He goes that way, I go with him. How you doing? Goes that way, I go with him. I'm always attentive to him, theoretically. I love him. He's at least in my top ten favorite people. I'm embarrassed by him sometimes, but basically, I love him and I'm going to take care of him and I'm going to attend to him and watch him and learn.

[49:31]

And as I learn, he might learn. But even if he doesn't learn, I'm learning. I'm learning, I'm learning, I'm learning. That's how I conduct myself in this realm of gain and loss. So, the liberation of the saints, what's that? What's it like there? Huh? Guess. What? No, wrong. But taking a chance like that is like, you know, overcoming gain and loss. They don't get involved in it anymore, right. It's like, no, there's no gain and loss. Gain and loss is like... Gain and loss, what? No gain and loss here. Not even boring. I mean, this is like, it totally cooled out. Like, you know, the juice has been removed. We've got like, you know, a saint here. Now, am I criticizing saints?

[50:34]

Well, not exactly. It's better to be sunk forever in hell than to be in that situation. Better to be in hell forever than to be in a place where there's no hell and no kind of like, geez, I wonder when I'm going to get out of hell or when is my promotion coming through? Buddhas do not live in a place where there's no gain and loss. They live in the world of gain and loss. They live and they love the beings who are suffering in the world of gain and loss. It's all they care about is helping the beings who are in the realm of what am I going to get out of this? What have I got out of this so far? And am I going to lose whatever I've gotten so far? Buddhists love those kinds of people. And as you know, there's quite a few of them, so Buddhists have a lot of people to love. Buddhists also love saints who don't have these problems. They even love them. But Buddhists are not living in the realm where they're liberated from that.

[51:44]

None of this stuff is happening. They live in the world of gain and loss. Okay, so now, is that enough on that? So here we got the story. Yeah? What is the difference between a saint and a Buddha? Different between a saint and a Buddha? Saints live where there's no gain and loss around. So like this, got a saint in the room here. Got these people in the room. Your gain and loss trouble is not, the saints are not worrying about your gain and loss. The fact that you're involved in gain and loss is not a problem to a saint. And they also don't have any gain and loss, so it's not a problem to them either. They don't have any problem themselves. And basically, although they may hear about your problems and say, geez, I'm sorry, it's not really like that's what they came here for, is to hear about your gain and loss and help you with that. All Buddhas want is to interact with these beings who are hung up on that stuff.

[52:49]

And nigh that... But the Buddhas understand that those who are hung up on it are actually... The reason why they're hung up on that is because they're Buddha's children. Our hang-up is actually the way Buddha identifies us as the children of Buddha. That's the difference. See the difference? Buddhists have inconceivable joy of helping these retarded children. You know, who are primarily concerned with, like, you know, gaining a little weight or losing a little weight, improving their vision a little bit, seeing a slightly better movie, this kind of stuff. Getting rid of several pimples, getting a little taller, having a slightly better wife. Or a lot better wife, whatever.

[53:54]

These are the kind of people that Buddhists love. So here we got two people. One of them is Dung Shan. And Dung Shan is our ancestor. And his brother, whose name is Uncle Mi, calls him Uncle Mi because Uncle Mi is older than Dung Shan. They're both disciples of Yunyan. Uncle Mi's first whole name is Sungmi Shenshan, Shenshan, which you see there. Sungmi Shenshan, Uncle Mi for short. So the great master, Dengshan, is traveling with his elder brother, his uncle, Sung, Mi, they're walking along and then they see a white rabbit run in front of them.

[54:57]

And Uncle Mi says, swift. And Deng Shan says, how? And Uncle Mi says, it's like a commoner being made into a prime minister. Deng Shan says, So venerable and great. Actually, the Chinese says, you know, old, old, great, great. So old and so great. Yet you say such words. And Mi says, well, then what about you? And Dengshan said, generations of nobility temporarily fallen into poverty. I can't remember where I saw this, but Suzuki Roshi did a nice little commentary on this koan someplace. And his image of what Dung Shan said is like, he said it's like some combs, some old family heirloom combs, you know, like combs that ladies wear in their hair, like some family heirloom comb that had fallen down the ground and broken.

[56:18]

Another way to translate this is the ancestral diadem has fallen low. So the image actually is of one of those really fancy little hair stickers, things that an aristocratic lady would wear, or a diadem that's sort of fallen on the ground and kind of got dented or broken. That's the kind of colorful image. But it's also going to be translated as generations of nobility. you know, generations of aristocracy temporarily fallen into poverty or broken down. Okay? So this is like two different approaches to koan practice. One koan, one approach is that, you know, people like us who are like, I don't know what, we're like commoners, right? Commoners. Like we're into like you know, making a lot of money on our crops, having lots of healthy kids, that kind of stuff.

[57:31]

Gain. Self-protection. Competition. Me first. This is common, right? This is a commoner. So it's like there's a practice by which you can, like, like that, become, like, really noble. Like, maybe like a saint, be like a saint. Like all of a sudden, hey, I don't put myself first. I'm not scared and anxious because, you know, I'm concerned about myself. I'm like liberated. I'm like a free person. I'm no longer hung up on my own stuff. Hey, it's great. This is terrific. And like, it can happen like that. And you know what? There are stories like that. So Uncle Mee sees the rabbit running across the street, and that's what he thinks of, is that it's like a commoner being suddenly made into a prime minister, or like us suddenly being liberated from our petty concerns, from our common concerns, and to be a liberated being, to understand what's going on really well and all that.

[58:51]

And the Dengshan says, oh, Uncle Mi, how could you talk like that? And Uncle Mi says, how about you, sis? This great being has temporarily fallen down. That's us. How do we fall down? By a story. Once a story is told, well, first we fall down by telling a story, and then we forget we told a story, and then we're caught in the story, and then we're a commoner because everybody's caught in their story. But before the story was told, we had this thing called our original face. A very noble original face. What is our original face? Well, it's prior to your face.

[59:59]

It's a face that you had before your parents were born. You know that one? What was that one? You can call it a noble face, but what would that face be like, do you think? Would it look like Buddha's face? It would be anybody's face, yeah. It would be the face of all beings, except prior to when they get made into things. That's the face you have before your parents are born. That's the situation that we've fallen from. But we have to fall from it, otherwise we wouldn't have an existence. In other words, we fall from a place which isn't non-existence and isn't existence. We fall from a reality which hasn't been compromised or biased by any agenda of life. We've fallen from just infinite life into small-scale common existence.

[61:00]

This is our fall. This is our fall. We have fallen. We are fallen beings. But it isn't that we improved this fallen being into a better fallen being. And it isn't that we go back to pre-fallen. It's that we understand and we are a Buddha. And a Buddha is not somebody that goes back to the pre-fallen. And a Buddha isn't like an improved fall. Like, you know, got these people here and the Buddha's up here. The Buddha is the understanding of this process of falling. And There's the falling, there's the understanding, there's the enlightenment, there's the wisdom, there's the compassion. So Deng Xiaon is just saying what we got here is not that we don't have a situation where you can now be promoted just like that.

[62:03]

Just a twinkling of an eye and you can be heavily promoted. It's not like that. Although that's the way some people see it. It's more like you can understand the way you are and how you come to be. And then you don't need the slightest bit of improvement, and nobody else needs the slightest bit of improvement either. So again, it's not a manipulation process. That's why the meditation is not manipulative. The meditation is more like facing how things are happening rather than getting in there and engineering because that's just more of the same. So in this way of reading this story, the way I'm reading and the way I'm talking about this story, plus I think what the story is talking about, which just happens, you know, I kind of think I'm talking about what the story says, is that I understand the story as telling us how to practice. Two ways. And Dung Shan thinks his way is better, in a way.

[63:09]

And I think Dung Shan's way better, too. So that's two of us. And if you do kind of a survey among all the Zen people, probably most people would think Dongshan's way is better. But some Zen people, as you may know, are into not cooperating with the program. So some of them just will say, no, I really think Uncle Mi's better. But I think... I think Dung Shan's way is better. Better meaning more in line with Buddha. Because again, what does Buddha do with rabbits and commoners and Zen people? What does Buddha do with them? Buddha's devoted to them.

[64:17]

And how is Buddha devoted to them? How does he express his devotion? Yeah, he sits upright with them. And then sometimes, you know, he starts talking. But sometimes she doesn't say anything until somebody says, hello. And Buddha says, hello. But although Buddha may not talk, Buddha is, like I was studying with some people today, Buddha is... In the Lotus Sutra, it says there's one great cause for Buddhas to come into the world, or come up in the world, to manifest in the world. The one great cause is the desire. A desire is what makes Buddhas manifest in the world. Again, saints don't have any desires. And having no desires is really is really comfortable, in case you have never heard about that.

[65:18]

I had a friend who was a heroin addict. People, when they take heroin, I understand, it's like when the stuff's in them, they like don't have any desire. For, you know, I don't know how long, two seconds or three minutes or whatever it is. But for a while, there's no desire. It's just like, no desire. It's awfully nice. Does anybody know what I'm talking about? Can you imagine being that cool? Like, no desire, which means no anxiety. Of course, I just asked for a little while, and that's what they're saying here. These yogis here, Devadatta and so on, they got into these states, you know, like... But it ended, and when it ended, they were not happy campers. What? Were they Buddhist teachers? Now Devadatta was, I believe, Buddha's cousin. And Devadatta was kind of like an unhappy camper. And he actually tried to kill Buddha. But he was a powerful yogi too.

[66:23]

And without heroin, he got into states that were like, you know, no desire. Very high quality worldly bliss. Anyway, okay, no desire. Does that make Buddhas? Does no desire make Buddhas appear? No. What makes Buddhas appear? Desire. Now, by the way, do Buddhas have worldly desire? They don't. So actually, Shakyamuni Buddha just happened to be, he had a side, what do you call it, he had a second job. He was a Buddha and he had a second job. You know what his second job was? Guess. Time's up. What was his second job? Guess. Huh? No, it wasn't his second job. No, his first job was being a teacher. His second job was he was a saint. Buddha was a saint. Funny, huh?

[67:24]

But he was... He was a saint who was not at all attached to being a saint. He was just kind of like... It's kind of like some of you being Americans and some of you being German or something like that. It was like that. except not like the way we are. It would be like you're a Buddha and you're a German. So the Buddha was a saint. In other words, the Buddha had no worldly desires. The Buddha was not like trying to get promoted to be Buddha. And then when he got to be Buddha, he wasn't hoping to be like promoted to be like the best Buddha that anybody ever heard of. He wasn't concerned with getting nice housing at the monastery, or even he wasn't concerned with having a monastery. He wasn't concerned about hanging out with kings and queens, even though he did. He wasn't concerned, he wasn't trying to gain famous disciples, even though he had them. He wasn't into worldly stuff, so he was like on heroin all the time. He was like totally, totally cooled out and blissed out whenever he wanted to be.

[68:35]

He was a saint. But he was also a Buddha. In other words, he had this tremendous desire. What was his desire? He wanted, not just liberate, he wanted beings to open their eyes and ears to his wisdom. and he wanted them to study it, understand it, enter it. He really wanted that, and all Buddhas have that. That desire makes Buddhas appear. It's a desire. They have a passion to do this. So they love these people. who, you know, have manifested in this kind of limited way out of the infinite possibility of life. That life is infinitely, can be anything, and has chosen to be us. And some other people too, as you know. Life has chosen to manifest itself in this extremely unique way all over the place and to keep doing it over and over.

[69:45]

Buddha is the strong desire that each of us will actually realize Buddha's wisdom. And then, of course, spontaneously, Buddha's compassion. Buddha's compassion is that Buddha is in pain, too. Not only does Buddha have desire that we would realize this wisdom, but Buddha is in pain until we do. But again, it's not the same kind of pain that we're familiar with because he's also totally blissed out and extremely joyful. And so one definition of compassion, there's two words for compassion. Not really, but there's two words for love in a way in Buddhism. One is maitri or metta, which means loving kindness. which means you really care about everybody and want them to be happy. Buddha has great loving kindness for all people. Buddha really hopes that we're happy and likes us the way we are now.

[70:55]

But Buddha also has this thing called karuna, which is compassion. And karuna, I think etymologically means dented happiness. So the Buddha loves us, but the Buddha's not completely happy until we realize Buddha's wisdom. So that's connected to the desire that we would realize it. So Dung Shan's saying, all of us, all of us little white rabbits, all of us commoners, are kind of like limited, common people. and yet unique versions of our great nobility. But Buddha is not noble or common. Buddha is not the nobility and not the commonness. Buddha is the understanding of how nobility and commonness resonate and take turns manifesting.

[72:01]

Buddha is not like a man or a woman or like unspecified, unmanifested possibility. Buddha is understanding all that. And that understanding then makes all the people who have fallen into this limited state, makes them Buddhas too, while still being in this fallen state. So, what time is it? Okay, so that's kind of an introduction, so now I have some questions. Yes? But Buddha has no preferences. I mean, he has no preferences. Buddha has no preferences? When it's necessary, he has... You mean Buddha doesn't prefer you over Dung Shan? Is that what you're saying? I mean, I can be... I can be a Dung Shan. Oh, that me! laughter laughter

[73:04]

Yeah, Buddha doesn't prefer his great disciples over anybody else. Right. Is that what you think? Is that what you thought? Yeah. You're right. Well, I mean, I'm struggling with the word temporary. Yes, temporarily. That is because when you describe this, let's say, initial fall into being, it doesn't seem to be temporary. It doesn't seem temporary? How old are you? How old are you?

[74:09]

Okay. Well, maybe I'm a little older than you. To me, it seems very temporary. I'm going to be out of here real soon. You know, it's been great, but I'm not going to be here much longer. This unique thing, this fallen state here is not going to be like this much longer. I'll be gone. It's temporary. That's what temporary means. And then pretty soon I'll be like back to nobility land. I'll be like totally like unspecified, uncommitted, no small time stuff for me. I'm going to be like, you know, all of you. And not only that, but all the possibilities that you downplayed to get to be yourself. I'm going to be there. I'm going to be back in the big river. Okay? Real soon. Like, real soon. And that's why I'm having so much fun between now and then. Because there's not much time left. That's what temporary means. And Barrett, you might be like me. Who knows? That's what temporary means.

[75:16]

It means we're just going to be limited like this for a little while, and then we're going to be unlimited, you know, pure possibility again. And then we're going to be limited again. And then we're going to be pure possibility. Then we're going to be limited. We're going to keep resonating like that back and forth until either we fall into a trap of being a saint and then go back into possibility and not come back for a while, or until everybody really feels okay about being pure possibility, which is unlikely because life is really cool, or everybody's a Buddha. But in the meantime, we've got all this work to do, right? What's the work? Precepts. Being upright. And then see if you can express that uprightness in a way that looks like the precepts.

[76:18]

And then... Do we have perfect wisdom here? Do you see your story? Do you see the story by which you are made and by which you're made, everybody? Do you see that story? Are you catching that story? Are you falling for that story? Are you not fooled by that story? And if you're not fooled by that story, are you really happy to not be fooled? And do you feel unbelievable, inconceivable, joyful, great compassion coming out of you all the time? If so, great. If not, get back to work. Get back to work, get back to being balanced. When you're balanced, then express yourself. Is your expression in line? If not, get balanced. Try again. Off, balance. Off, confess, balance. Confess, balance. Express, whoops, balance. Express, whoops, balance. Express, whoops, balance. Express, hey, not whoops, whoops.

[77:27]

Express, express, express, could this be it? What do you think? I don't know, just a rabbit ran in front of them, and it was white. So that made lay people, lay Buddhists in China in those days wore white. So then Uncle May thought, oh, you see this white thing run? It's like there's this transformation, right? So he thought, oh, that's like an ordinary person becoming promoted to a... Prime minister, and prime ministers, by the way, were black. The ministers were black because they're into calligraphy, right?

[78:34]

So they didn't want to spill, they got ink on their black clothes, there's no problem. So the common people wore white and the aristocrats, the scholars, the great beings were black. So you can change that fast and you can change that fast, but that's not what Deng Xiaon's into. Deng Xiaon's into You know, this form that we've manifested is just a temporary limitation. Do you understand how things happen? Do you understand how we've fallen into this state? Do you understand the Pentecostal rising, how this has happened? That's what he's concerned with. When you understand that, it's not a matter anymore of up and down. That's not what you said. You said it is a matter of up and down.

[79:38]

Didn't you say it is a matter of up and down? I don't know. Did I say that? What did I mean? I think you said that. What did I mean by it's a matter of up and down? It reminds me of someone saying, understanding that wind is eternal, but not knowing it pervades everything. Once again? Knowing that wind is eternal but not realizing it pervades everything. Yes. I think it's like that. Because if you say there's up and down, you've already fallen into some state. Yeah. Yeah. So that's what he's talking about though, right? Falling into a state of where there's up and down. Yes. But his concern is not for up and down, for once you've fallen and up and down. That's what I'm saying. We've fallen now. He's not concerned with getting us up out of that fallen state.

[80:40]

That's right. But it sounded to me like you were saying he was. No, I'm saying he isn't. He's not concerned for getting fallen people out of their fallen state. He's concerned for us to understand that we're in a fallen state. and that we're temporarily in a fallen state. We're in a fallen state just for a little while. That's what I don't agree with. Is he concerned with getting us to realize we're in a fallen state? Yes. That's what he's concerned with us realizing. Because when you realize you're in a fallen state, then you have a chance to understand how you're in a fallen state. Understanding how you're in a fallen state is wisdom. But is understanding that you're in a fallen state another way of manipulating a fallen state? No, it's not. If it is, you can't understand it. If you're putting any energy into manipulating your fallen state, you won't be able to see how you've fallen. Right, so how about if you just completely be in that fallen state?

[81:44]

You have to completely be in the fallen state. That's part of it. That's called being upright. But then when you're in the fallen state and you're not trying to manipulate it anymore, you're not trying to get something for it, take a pill for it, or make it more fallen, like I want to be the most fallen one or something like that. You're just upright. You're balanced in that fallen state. Then your eyes open to how you fell and how you keep falling, like making new stories which keep making you fall again and again with every story. So when you see how you fall, you're a Buddha. But that doesn't stop you from falling. It just makes you a Buddha. Because Buddhas actually are in the world with all this fallen stuff. It's just that they're... And they come because they want to show people how to understand fallen. We say fallen. Fallen is pratichasamutpada.

[82:46]

Fallen is dependent core arising. That's fallen. That's how we get to be here by dependent core arising. So fallen means we come into thingness, into limitation, into packages. That's our fall. If you understand that, you don't have to stop falling. You've got now, this fallen state has got wisdom in it and compassion. This is like, you know, Buddha center. But there's no kind of like improving this fallen state. It's just that the Buddha's light now is coming out of the fallen state and illuminating other fallen states to educate them to admit that they've fallen, study how they've fallen, and wake up from their fallenness. But without messing with the fallenness, like, oh, God got rid of that. No. You can't have wisdom. The content of wisdom is our fallenness, our little tight... concern, all this stuff, that is the content of wisdom.

[83:47]

How that works is what wisdom operates on. So we don't like eliminate that. You understand it. Eliminating it... You're right up to the end, but when you said how that works, it seemed to me like you stepped away from it. How what works? When you said, when you realized how that works, then you've already stepped back away from it again. When you realize how it works, you step back from it? Because I thought it was you that said that even the Buddhists gave up a long time ago trying to figure out how it works. I didn't say figure out how it works. I said realize how it works. Okay? I did say realize, but I don't say figure out. If you're trying to figure out, you're still... you're still, you're manipulating. Trying to figure out how things happen, you're still manipulating.

[84:48]

Realizing how they happen, you're not manipulating. So again, when you're upright, you're not trying to figure out how things happen. You're giving that up. When you give it up, then you understand. Now some people still have questions, which I appreciate, but also somebody else is helping me by going like this. This means, that's a T, which means, stands for time out. or also stands for temporary. Temporary termination of tension. So if you can ask me your question later or write it down or whatever, I'll answer it later. So there's a little bit more on this case. So we'll study this case again next week, okay? We have a one-day sitting here next week, but we'll have class. The one-day sitting ends at dinnertime, so we'll have class next Monday night, even though there's a one-day sitting. I mean, if you come, there will be class.

[85:53]

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