Somebody said last week that... we didn't finish the last case we only have half of it case 54 so is there anything more about case 54 anybody would like to discuss What I was thinking this week is that, as I was contemplating, it reminded me of the old arms, the second unsupported thought.

[01:13]

But this case is like, What that would be to be with an unsupported thought is what you would do or how it would be helpful to see somehow those that emerge. Yeah. Supported what? Thought. So would you say that how does unsupported thought use a lot of hands? Even a thousand arms is an unsupported thought. Oh, I see. In itself, you know, and how the compassion... How is a thousand arms an unsupported thought? Well, I guess for me, just...

[02:19]

trying to contain or hold a thousand hearts is just sort of beyond any way that my mind would conceive. And the way that it would help beings would in a way be inconceivable in the sense of all those possibilities. It had the stones of no one way. Mm-hmm. I see. Uh-huh. No one way. Is there anything you might want to put up? Well, it seemed like we didn't finish the second throughout the body, his hands and eyes.

[03:22]

We didn't sort of finish the poem. Because when I went back to it, I certainly didn't, you know, I don't have a sense of the second half of this poem. Let me see. So there's this part where he... Da Wu says, it's like reaching behind your head for a pillow in the middle of the night. And Yun Yan says, I understand. And Da Wu says, how? And he says, the whole body is covered with eyes and hands. And he says, well, that's pretty good, but you only got 80%. And then Yun Yan says, well, what about you, elder brother? Dawu says, throughout the body, eyes and hands. Eyes and hands throughout the body. Right? So, did you have any question about that?

[04:26]

Well, I don't really felt like I really understand. You didn't understand? Yeah. What did you understand? Anything? Well, I got half the first half of the column. There's something there. But then the second half, there's no handle or key for me there. I'm still sort of blank. It doesn't invoke. It's up in the water. And you feel like when it doesn't evoke something that maybe you don't understand?

[05:41]

Yeah, usually at the class, choose on these things, things start to happen. And it certainly allows me to, if not now, but in the future, be able to to find where this fits. At a certain moment, it'll fit in, but it's still somewhat opaque to me. Well, I'm just wondering the difference between you look at the coin, and it's opaque, and you look at the coin, and you said it was blank. Well, it's the same thing. I can't get by saying just that you need anything by any difference. It's just a way of expressing the same thing. So I... Does anybody else have any... Yes?

[07:04]

I wonder where the halfway mark is before the understanding of... I don't have my glasses. I understand. How do you understand? Right. Well, yeah, the coin seems to be in two parts. Yeah, it's the second part of the coin. Right at your hand, it was raised. One thing that, when I read the book this week, what I thought was, first, when Jungian says, all over the body is hands and eyes, and then at the end, Daowu says, throughout the body is hands and eyes, and what that was for me, that throughout the body is, from the, it feels like the inside, um, The difference between all over and throughout feels like an inside understanding, an inside reaching, just more organic. And then all over would be more in my understanding that I would be thinking more.

[08:12]

Although, if I say that, I'm not sure that's real. All right. Well, as Henry was talking, he had this sense that he's got it. That's what it's about. You're blank. You're just blank. And what comes up, you're there for it. The colon's not even going to get in the way. You're not going to carry an understanding with you. So I was turning right there as he talked to me. That's why I didn't go on further to say talk. In fact, I can also understand that we're talking about it some more. Jennifer? When they were talking about it, I found themselves in the same training. I got this. If she fell, a thousand arms would be more great to capture.

[09:17]

Okay, a thousand arms would be more great for me. And just now when we were talking, I had this idea of, if she fell, a thousand arms all over her body would be great for catching, because that's sort of the attack to capture, or the movement for the capture, the idea to catch someone that's fallen, that's kind of a thousand arms. Is that what you thought? Carol? Do I have no boundaries? Do you? No boundaries? Pardon? I think that Heather should be in that throughout. Hmm. Did you say even him? Just that he was denying being in it.

[10:18]

He was denying being in it? Yes, throughout. Pardon? Who is he who is... Apparently, I thought, it even was because Henry seemed to be denying he was in that throughout. I thought Henry was out of it. Maybe it's not possible to get a hold of it throughout the body. Maybe that's exactly what that was trying to express. Well, I think he thought that you never still thought about it. So... No.

[11:21]

Here is the kind of a colon. He's becoming this kind of a... We could have, like, sweatshirts, you know. We could have a little ball. In football, that's usually a center. Thank you. But if you reach them out in the wrong way, they'd all get broken. A thousand-armed receiver. For a white receiver? Yeah. Just throw it anywhere in the area.

[12:31]

Ten centipedes. In effect. I'm glad that we talked about this somewhere, because I didn't really have a, I hadn't really focused on that part of the co-op thousand arms and arms.

[13:57]

And I just, I really like the comment about what if they'd like to cast somebody to be taught by somebody without a thousand arms. I feel like I have much more of a sensual feeling with that target. How wonderful that would be. Yeah. I get this image across my mind of, you know, of a wedding, you know, and on the wedding night they disrobe and you find out that your partner has a thousand months. I guess some people say, well, okay. And some other people might say, oh, yeah. What are we going to do with these thousand arms and eyes?

[15:01]

You could be like Lincoln and say, Google. Or like Lincoln and say, stand and deliver. Huh? What? Abraham Lincoln said that, stand and deliver. Is that from the Bible? No? I don't know. I have two bodies. A body which makes an effort and a body which enjoys. So the first body is a body that does what you do with somebody hanging from an iron. And the second body is a body that doesn't do it.

[16:06]

Thank you. So you notice the parallel between this story, this story of this, you know, the one monk says, how do you understand? And one monk says something, and the one who asked originally says, that's pretty good, but you only got 80%, and then he says, so you've got case 52, case 52, says the Buddha, the true body of Buddha responds

[17:13]

According to the Dharma, the true body of Buddha is like vast space and manifests in response to beings like the moon and water. And then he says, what's the principle of response? What's the principle of this, how vast space responds to beings? And the monk says, it's like an ass or a donkey looking into a well. And the teacher says, that's pretty good, but you only got 80%. The monk says, well, how about you, teacher? He said, it's like the well looking at the donkey. Okay? So... You can juxtapose those two statements.

[18:24]

The... So how does the... How does the compassion of vast space respond to beings? Well, Like a hand reaching back in the middle of the night for a pillow. Oh, I understand. But how? How does vast space respond to beings? The whole body is covered with hands and eyes. the whole body. The whole body is covered with hands and eyes. So that's how it responds to beings. And each response is like this. And he says, well, that's pretty good, but you missed something there. Well, what did I miss?

[19:27]

Hands and eyes throughout the body. But if I compare it back to the other one, How does it respond? Like a donkey looking into a well. Well, what about the other side? Oh, it's the well looking at the donkey. But again, it's not like the well looking at the donkey is 20% that was missing, exactly, but sort of. It's not like one's 80%, one's 20%, but anyway, between the two of them, you get the whole picture. So some of you didn't study case 52, right? So if you look back at case 52 and study these two together, they're a pair, right? I mean, they're not a pair exactly, but they're the same colon, actually. It's two different perspectives on the same process.

[20:31]

One emphasizing how the true body manifests, and the other is about how the true body responds. How does compassion respond? How does the body manifest? And also, you can also remember that the donkey looking in the well And maybe you could say the whole body covered with eyes and hands, hands and eyes, okay? Like the donkey looking in the well. That's like... What is it like? It's like... Consciously, Falling flowers consciously fall onto the flowing stream.

[21:40]

And the other one is mindlessly falling flowers are carried along by the stream. Is there a similar difference between great compassion and sentimental compassion? Oh, I see. Uh-huh. You mean the donkey looking at him in the well might be sentimental compassion? I think that would be a little harsh. Maybe going a little bit too harsh on that first one. I think sentimental compassion, I don't know if I want to apply that to any kind of compassion which has any sense, any conscious awareness.

[22:48]

Well, sentimental compassion means that compassion which is somewhat routinized and kind of set in some pattern. So I think there still could be responsiveness even though there's some consciousness. Responsiveness not like holding to a fixed way of... I think sentimental compassion, the feeling of that is more like When you feel compassion for some being, and then you, well, one example is you feel compassion for some being, and you let your feelings for that being become associated with the compassion. Like, you have some positive affect toward somebody, and then you care about them.

[24:01]

Right? Those are two different things. Actually, you don't have to have positive affect about somebody to care about them. You can care about them even if you have negative feeling about them. But let's say you have positive feeling, and then you start mixing the feeling together with the compassion, with the concern for their welfare, for wanting them to be free. Then if the affective feeling becomes confused with compassion, then that compassion can be hindered when the affective feeling changes. Or even if it stays the same, there may be some kind of energy dynamic around that affect which will deplete you, tire you. When you're helping somebody that you don't really like, it's not so tiring.

[25:06]

I mean, assuming that you also don't then mix up the compassion with not liking them. But if you mix the compassion with liking them, then each compassionate interaction is a slightly tiring, and pretty soon you realize that if you spend one more moment of compassion with this person, it's going to be kind of like Snuff City. You're going to die from loss of energy because you're giving this energy or affect with each moment of compassion. or if not one person, maybe a lot of people. So the compassion gets kind of locked into this emotional pattern and then either drains you and or when your person starts to change, because of that, because of your association of them being a certain way and caring about them according to the way that they appear,

[26:16]

then you have trouble adjusting and that adjustment problem interferes with the compassion. You can even start maybe not liking the person and getting angry at the person and getting distracted from your compassion by the fact that they're changing from what they were before. The other direction could also apply if you get involved in not liking somebody, you can let that not liking get mixed up with compassion. But that's not so much a danger as the positive affect. Because once you get into a compassionate relationship with someone that you're not attracted to or that you're even repulsed by, usually you just go to work on the compassion and you don't spend much time indulging in negative affect. I don't know if that makes sense. Cheryl looks like she's trying to think her way through this.

[27:21]

You having trouble following that? Did you follow it at all? I can't repeat. Well, so anyway, if you, let's say there's somebody you really think is really attractive, and your affect you feel is you kind of like to be somewhere in the neighborhood of them. You like the way they smell, or the way they look, or the way they talk, or all of that. And then you notice that they're suffering, perhaps because they're attached to something. And you want them to become free of their attachment. Okay? Yeah, that's compassion. You see, you see them suffering and you want them to become free of what is causing their suffering. But you also think they're really, you know, you got this feeling for them. So you're doing this feeling thing along with along with this compassion thing.

[28:33]

Okay. And this takes energy to be doing this. It uses some of your energy. And you go right ahead and do it because you're not, I don't know, anyway, you're trying to be compassionate, but you're also doing this other thing, so you're getting tired from that kind of interaction. That's one story. Another story is they start to change. and you become attached to that. Don't notice that you're attached to it, maybe. And they start moving and changing and so on and maybe become less attractive. Maybe they don't look the same way or maybe they're not as nice as to you as they used to be or something like that. Then the fact that they're changing from this really attractive

[29:35]

kind, or not kind, but anyway, sweet, easy to get along with, cooperative person, now they're starting to become something which doesn't seem so cooperative. Okay? Then you start to have trouble with that. And that trouble you're having with that can then interfere with the compassion. But the compassion is now mixed in with it, so... If it was clear you just got trouble with this person, you can just work on that, but you've got this compassion associated with it. So the compassion then becomes undermined or you sort of have to abandon it even because you're so tangled up with the person. And you let yourself get tangled up with them, partly because you're being so compassionate. You thought, hey, I'm being compassionate. I can get all involved in this other aspect here. It's okay. Aren't I being helpful?

[30:37]

Well, yeah, you are. But pretty soon, it's going to all blow up. Or you're going to backfire anyway. Because you're going to start hating the person who you're feeling compassion towards. You're going to start hating them, testing them and so on. Because you've got yourself in this mess, partly without even noticing it, because you weren't just like on the make. You were actually being compassionate and caring about them. But you're doing this other thing at the same time, which is not compassion. Affective relationships Strictly speaking, not compassion. They're just an affective relationship. Affective means you feel an affect, and then are you studying it, or are you just feeling it? Are you just studying it, or are you feeling it, and even looking forward to it? I say, well, what if I look forward to it?

[31:40]

I'm being compassionate, so I can look forward to it. But then looking forward to it, maybe preferring to see the person rather than not see the person, It's a perfectly normal thing, but be careful not to get that mixed in with your compassion. If you get into things like that where you prefer to see somebody rather than not seeing somebody, or if you prefer this person over that person, that's just something you've got to work with, right? It's just a thing that we have. Some people you prefer, some people you don't. The ones you prefer, maybe you want to sort of like, if they come around, you're kind of like, that's kind of a pleasant thing. The ones who you don't prefer come around, it's kind of unpleasant, right? That's normal. But to get either one of those mixed together with compassion, that's sentimental compassion. And then if you vow, once you get mixed up with those or confused with those, your compassionate activity with this person anyway becomes a problem.

[32:44]

And if you do it with lots of people, then pretty soon the very people who you're dedicated to, those people you start running away from, you've got to get away from them because they're kind of like Does that make more sense? But I didn't think that I didn't think that that the donkey looking into the well or the hands and eyes covered with the body covered with hands and eyes I didn't think necessarily we were indicting that as a sentiment of compassion but more compassion just at the level of because it's still this thing, right? It's still this. It's this kind of response rather than this kind of response. It's right out in front of you. You see what it is and you're reaching for this pillow rather than that pillow. And you've done this more than once. And you don't want to reach for that pillow and you haven't. And actually have a pattern like that.

[33:48]

That would be then... Then you can say, how does the bodhisattva of infinite compassion, how does compassion, how does some sentimental compassion, how does a person of sentimental compassion use their hands and eyes? Well, how do you describe how a person behaves? when they're picking and choosing among various beings. They expect certain results. If you go to a smorgasbord or something, you don't reach in a direction where you don't know where your hand's going to go. You look at the food and you reach for, usually for an actual piece of food. You don't like reach for the side of the table. That's not the usual thing. You don't just close your eyes and go like this. Partly because it's kind of rude, you know, because you might stick your finger in whipped cream or something. What basically is like, you pick this over that, you know.

[34:51]

You take this and that. That's the usual way. That's the way of a sentimental compassion. And all of that, but you would pick according to your habits, you know. You wouldn't necessarily, you wouldn't just necessarily say, I'm going to pick, but I'm not going to pick according to my sentiments. Right? That's not the usual way. Sentimental compassion would be, sentimental response would be, somewhat recognized, established, held in front. This is like, it's like, I don't, compassion, I don't care. This is just compassionate, oh, something, you know, something. But then, within this kind of reaching, there's two kinds. Okay? There's two ways of this kind of reaching. Okay? There's a reaching where you're consciously reaching, like a donkey looking into the well. This is the manifestation of vastness in response to beings.

[35:54]

Vastness doesn't not respond to some and respond to others. It responds to everything. So always there's a response. It's not like, could you wait a second? I want to take care of this person first. No. It's responding to everybody with no hesitation. But still, even in that realm, there's two ways. There's the way of the flowers consciously falling onto the stream. And there's the way of the flowers mindlessly falling onto the stream and being carried by the stream. Carried mindlessly. Huh? Oh, carried mindlessly. Flowers fall on the stream and carried mindlessly or consciously falling onto the stream, onto the flowing stream. Consciously falling onto the flowing stream. So then you come to the smorgasbord and you consciously fall upon the food. Okay? Okay. But it's flowing. The food's flowing all over the place for you. You just go into the flow of the food. There's no preference, you know. But you are relating to the food.

[36:55]

Like, I'm coming at the food now. I'm responding to this food scene. The other is, you mindlessly fall upon the food and are carried by it. You go to the food and you're mindlessly carried along by the food. Two different ways, you see. And They're both reaching for the pillow. We're talking about two different ways of reaching for the pillow. Two different ways of manifesting, of wisdom in a sense manifesting, or compassion manifesting in response to beings. Two different ways. And then sentimental compassion is something else. And of course sentimental wisdom is just fixed ideas. But I think actually I'm not talking about sentimental compassion here. That's why I think it's a little bit strict to say that having any kind of conscious awareness of responding to beings, that that makes us sentimental. Not necessarily. Okay?

[37:56]

So this was the first well that this downfall came across. Pardon? What? This well that the downfall started to be on was the first well it came across. It wasn't good. No, not necessarily. It could be. That could be the story. But the other possibility is this donkey just looks in this well, and then his master pulls him away, and he goes over, and there's another well, and he looks in another well. Wherever he goes, you get a well, this donkey. This donkey will respond to all wells, always slightly differently according to the kind of well it is. There'll be some difference, but this donkey responds to all wells, not just some. I would think. But still, looking into the well is different than the well looking at you. And being compassionate and feeling some compassion and concern for someone and wanting them to be free and seeing them out there is different than another kind of compassion which is not you thinking that you want to help the person.

[39:06]

So reaching for the pillow can be something which is kind of like, oh, I want to help this person. I'm not sure how to, but I want to. The other is not that way. It's more like the pillow coming to get your hand. It's the other side of the story. And one isn't better than the other. They're both 80%, or they're both pretty good, but you have to have two together to fully characterize this dynamic process. And in the verse, this is brought out a little bit. Elenia? There's a way where I find myself thinking about the ancient Mrs. Cornplay, and that the donkey and the well would be like emptiness is born. That's where I'm going with this. And then, whereas this koan, it feels like it takes it one more step. And it's like the is, the pre-emptiness is born.

[40:09]

The is separates emptiness from form. And this koan, I believe, somehow tonight, and I've been continuing to chat about it, this koan takes this out. Mm-hmm. and let's there be nothing to talk about. I understand that. And I don't agree, but I think that both koans carry that, maybe sense carry that, that in both koans, one side is form, I think this isn't form is emptiness, I think this koan is about emptiness is form. Both of these poems are about emptiness is form. Okay? But the is, in one case there's an is, in another case the is is not exactly taken out, but become not a separator. Yeah. It's like, and actually, in the Tarsutra, that is is not really an is.

[41:10]

Like, is like a, what is it, a copula? You know? Is it a copula or a copula? Hmm? Kapala. It's not really a kapala. It's not really like an is. I think is is a kapala. It's not like this is that. But it's kind of like that. But the actual character is, what is it? Ku, zoku, zei, shiki. Shiki, zei, Shiki, zoku, zei, ku. Shiki, zoku, zei, ku. Ku, zoku, zei, shiki, right? Zoku, zei. Zoku means immediately. And zei by itself is like is. But zoku, zei together means like immediately is, or... Not even like, you know, immediately, without something in between. No something in between. But it's a little bit like slight separation there, but also sort of an immediately. Emptiness immediately is form.

[42:13]

There's not like there's emptiness and then there's form. Emptiness is always the emptiness of a form. You don't have any floating emptinesses. And you don't have any floating form. Now we, sometimes people think that there is a floating form. Of course, that's the usual way. But then when people hear about emptiness, they think maybe there's a floating emptiness, that there's a floating insubstantiality, a lack of self someplace. But no. Emptinesses are always emptiness of something. So as soon as you have emptiness, you always have form. As soon as you have form, you always have emptiness. But I think this story, these stories are more about, okay, you got emptiness now. Great, infinite compassion, got emptiness. Vast space, you got emptiness. But vast space immediately is form. But how is it form? It's form in response to beings. It's form in response to some form. But in one sense, it's almost like form is emptiness.

[43:14]

The other case is form immediately is emptiness. And so in one case, there's a little separation, like the donkey looking at the well. In the other case, the well's looking at the donkey. A well cannot separate itself from a donkey, right? It doesn't know how. Donkeys kind of a little bit know how to separate themselves from the well. Like, you know, try to pull the donkey away from the well. No, I want to stay with the well. Now, a mule, you can never get away from the well. A donkey, you can get away. But the well doesn't hold on to the donkey. In both cases, it's kind of a natural thing of just kind of like, So I think this is, yes. So the throughout the body is not known, it's more like mindlessly. The stream mindlessly carries the bars, the stream doesn't know it carries clouds.

[44:15]

Right. So part of the way we go like this, you know, you don't know about. Because part of it is not that you're going like this, Part of it's more like the pillow. You don't reach for the pillow unless it's a pillow, right? Unless the sort of possibility of pillows, of pillows had been invented, or, you know, that people had made it. All that leads to this. You help people. Sometimes you, like, give somebody some water. But the intention, this is not just supplying water, the intention of giving this water is to there's this feeling of wanting beings to be free of suffering, and then it manifests into this response. But you still feel like, there's still this kind of thing like, I'm giving you this water. The other one is, the water is given, but you don't know about it.

[45:20]

You don't know this is happening. Part of compassion is you don't know it's happening. You don't know how it's happening. Like in this quest, I don't know what's happening. I don't know if this is helpful to you. I don't. Partly I don't know. I don't know how that's happening. I don't know how the well's looking back at the donkey. But that's part of the way the vast reality manifests is that what's being responded to also looks back at the responder. But the responder doesn't know about that. But the responder is totally involved in that. The one dancer doesn't know how it is for the other dancer, really. But just because you are dancing with somebody doesn't mean that it's sentimental dancing.

[46:24]

And you might be willing to dance with somebody else. Even though it's different, you might be willing to change partners. And that's infinite compassion from the level of you knowing that you're changing partners. And you're doing the dance with this person, with this person, and with this person. And you recognize there is a difference and you can see it and you're doing something and that's part of it. And there's difficulties with that part. There's some anxiety or something like that. Maybe it's part of the deal, part of the medium in which the compassion for which the vastness is manifested. But another part of it you don't know about, but it's happening at the same time. And that doesn't mean that the other side of it is what you're doing. What you're doing is the same side as what I'm doing. But there's a way that you are for me that's the completion of the compassion.

[47:32]

Not the completion of my compassion, but the completion of compassion. Not the completion of my vast reality body. No, my behavior is The way I respond is the manifestation of the reality body in response to beings, including me, as the hands and eyes all over the body. But the hands and eyes throughout the body is the way that everything is how it's responding the part that I don't know about, that I can't know, in the same act. Okay? Yes. Could it maybe be said, like, we consciously, while we're consciously following what we like, the intention, for example, if I walk along and I saw someone carrying a big rock, and they're struggling a little up, and I say, could you use some help with that rock?

[48:48]

And they say, yes, I surely could. So when I go over and grab the rock, it's the compassion, At that point, grabbing the rock, carrying the rock with another person, is that compassion? Or am I just carrying the rock? Or is it carrying the rock and helping the other person? It seems to me it's the middle. It's carrying the rock with the other person is compassion. I think so or not. The question is, do I agree with you? And the way you tell that story, first of all, it sounds closer to the previous story of how the reality body is like a vast space and it responds according to circumstances.

[49:52]

The way you told the story, I don't feel necessarily that you had a story about compassion. Because you didn't tell me anything about that the person moving a rock was an example of suffering. The person was attached to moving rocks or anything like that. So I don't hear necessarily that it's compassion. I don't necessarily feel it's compassion for like, you know, Klaus pushes on my elbow and my arm moves. I don't necessarily feel that that's compassion that my arm moves. So I don't know if I would say that's compassion, but it does seem more like something, there was a response, some things happened, and the truth manifested in that way of you interacting with somebody over a rock. That, in fact, the truth manifested that way at that moment. And there's two ways that it did.

[50:55]

There's two sides to that. One side is that you consciously that you consciously saw this happen, and you participate, you saw yourself doing this. The other side is the same act happened with, the same thing happened, the same thing happened with, mindlessly happened. It wasn't you doing it. It wasn't you knowing about it. There was no subject-object there. You're saying there's no compassion in what you're talking about. The way he told the story, I didn't get a feeling of compassion. I thought it was more like Case 52, the way he told it. I think when I couldn't tell the story, it was a kind of conventional compassion, someone who's struggling with a rock. Right, but he didn't tell me that they were suffering or anything, but it could be kind of a conventional idea of I want to be helpful.

[51:59]

But I think, again, not all helpful acts are acts of compassion. You could want to help somebody with something without necessarily being directed towards wanting to become free of suffering. You could want to help somebody get rich. It isn't necessarily compassion. You can want to help them with something they're doing. It's kind, I think, and it demonstrates the reality of our interconnectedness. But I think if we're talking about compassion, I'd like to bring up the fact that there's actually interest in helping somebody become free. Otherwise, it's more like the previous case, where it's more of a general response situation, which is more the wisdom side of the story, that all interactions carry this aspect. But compassion is a special thing, which completes the story of wisdom, so that it isn't just that you have insight into the way things work, from both directions. You understand both the donkey looking into the well and the well looking at the donkey.

[53:03]

It isn't just that you understand that. That's not the whole story of Buddhism. The other story of Buddhism is that there's a concern for beings who are hung up and don't see that and are suffering because of that. So, these two stories are all I have. They bring out something that each one brings out something the other one doesn't bring out. Case 54 doesn't bring out just the, you know, non-compassionate, the way things are kind of thing. And case 52 is more like just the way things are, in terms of the way reality, which you can't, which is, you know, unformed, the formless reality, how it gets manifested in the world in response to circumstances as they arise. In some sense there's no discussion of compassion in that. And one can become liberated by tuning into this interactive process.

[54:09]

If you're tuning into wisdom, you're tuning into what's happening. But that's not enough for the whole story because you could not care about people and still understand that story. It's possible to have wisdom, some wisdom, and some understanding and be literated by that and realize some confidence in reality and realization of reality without caring about people. For example, you can realize a state prior to being hung up in problems and not care much about people who are hung up in problems.

[55:11]

Well, prior to in the sense that, like, for example, what do you call it, an embryo, you know, a fetus, doesn't have problems of an infant. Okay? A fetus is, in some sense, not really suffering much. And it's innocent of a lot of problems that a that a newborn, an infant has. And you can be more, and you could be more and care more for that state than what it's like when the baby's born. And it's good. What? No, it is wisdom. It is wisdom. You're preferring wisdom. The fetus is more like wisdom. The fetus isn't yet involved in delusions. I'm a little bit confused by what you're saying.

[56:27]

My understanding of wisdom is that it's this understanding of connectedness, the pentacle rising with all phenomena, that is so powerful that you actually cannot possibly imagine being separate from anything else. Right, that's the penis. The fetus is in sight. Ah, it's conscious. In other words, you think it's like the donkey looking in the well. For you, To be like the fetus is for you to realize wisdom. You, with your powers, to be separate from things, to know things objectively.

[57:29]

If you could be like the baby, you would have gone to a state prior to your ability to separate. So for you, the baby isn't really itself wise, but for you to be in a state prior to being able to separate. But to go through separation... You still have the mental equipment to separate, but you've realized right in the middle of being able to separate yourself from another being, you've realized a state prior to that ability. That's a bad process to care for others. No. You would think. You would think, you would hope, you would hope, okay? Now, what I'm proposing to you is that there is the phenomenon of a person, whether they can see that, you know, people hearing about this face that you have before your parents are born, okay? that you hear about a state prior to earlier in development, you realize an earlier state of innocence while you're as an adult.

[58:45]

And when you have an experience like that, you realize some wisdom. And you would hope that you would have compassion to care about people still. But in fact, many people who realize this do not care about people anymore. Maybe they cared about them before, but now they don't care about people. That can happen. And it is a problem if they don't care about people. And some people, in their minds, notice they actually have some sense. Or they don't have some sense. or it is very dim that they sense that this state of freedom is very wonderful. But they don't care about what happens to beings who are not in that state. And that is not Buddha's wisdom, but that is a very important kind of wisdom.

[59:48]

And in order for it to be Buddha's wisdom, it has to be connected to beings which you do not yet, which you, either you do not yet, or you've realized a state which is innocent of, thinking that there are beings. Yeah. I don't know if I can repeat it, but there is a freedom that comes to one when one is innocent of the way of thinking which makes you feel separate from other beings. And when you are free of that and you don't feel separate from other beings, There aren't any other beings. And you can't care about them from that point of view. There's nobody to care about. And you don't.

[60:49]

In that way itself, you do not care about other beings. And you're happy because there's no other beings. Our anxiety comes from that we think there's other beings. We have that ability to think they're some other beings, and we're anxious about that because they might not like us. They might not support us. They might not cooperate with us. And some of them, we really care if they're healthy, and they might not even cooperate with being healthy. Some of them, we have a strong concern that they'd be well, and they don't do what we think would be good for them. And we feel really upset about that. I'm talking about realizing that from a certain point of view, there aren't any other beings. And when you realize that state, you are no longer anxious. You're no longer worried about what they're doing. You don't care. From that point of view itself. That's not Buddha's wisdom. Buddha's wisdom has to be coupled with this great compassion. You're not talking about Prajnaparamita.

[61:55]

I'm talking about Prajnaparamita. That first one is Prajnaparamita. Well, the first one is Prajnaparamita. Does Prajnaparamita include the compassion even though there are no beings? No. It doesn't? No. Well, I would say, you know, try it on. No. Look at the... Don't they say that Prajnaparamita cares about any people? Prajnaparamita is a light for beings. Yes. But it doesn't say prajnaparamita cares about any people. The wonderful thing about bodhisattvas is they can care about beings that they understand don't exist. So how does that manifest? Huh? How does what manifest? It's great compassion. You want them to be free and you also want to work to help them be free. That's compassion. But compassion without this knowing that they aren't other than you is not the fullest possible compassion.

[62:59]

The fullest compassion is compassion joined to realizing emptiness, that there aren't any other beings. But realizing emptiness means, in some sense, to a certain extent, you go back to this space before your parents are born. You go to a state of innocence where you can't actually, you actually do not have the ability, it's not that you stop yourself, but you realize there's a way that does not separate, that cannot separate from other beings. Katie, maybe you should talk. No, no, no. How can you have it? Well, one way to have it would be to do spiritual exercises that would free you of belief in subject-object dualism, but without taking bodhisattva vows of compassion.

[64:10]

without developing compassion alongside of it. That's how you could do it. That's why usually people are recommended to develop compassion before they get into perfect wisdom, so that when perfect wisdom starts manifesting, you're well trained and you don't forget that the whole point of this is to benefit other beings. To benefit other beings before yourself. In perfect wisdom, there are not any other beings. In fact, in reality, there are not other beings. the Buddha's deepest wisdom does not see other beings. But the Buddha is totally motivated by the concern for the welfare of other beings. So the compassion practice is yoked with the wisdom practice. So you don't have the freedom that wisdom gives you, personal freedom, separate from caring about others. You care about others even when you can't see them anymore as separate.

[65:12]

The fetus, I'm saying the fetus is like, what would be common for what human? Yeah, for a being who can't imagine separation, okay, to realize innocence of that ability. that you let go of that ability. Like right now you're here and you're looking at me and you let go of your ability and your attachment to being able to separate yourself from me. You become innocent of your capacity to get involved in this delusion that you're separate from me. And therefore you are free. But at that point you do not necessarily care about me at all. You don't hate me either. You just don't care about me. You don't care about society.

[66:18]

You just don't care about it. There's no society. And you could even allow cruel things to happen. It could happen. And this, of course, is Pauline. So it can happen that a person can behave appallingly in social situations while they have actually realized some very deep realization of freedom. That's what I'm proposing to you. Yes? Helen? Let's see. Right. Yeah. Right. So, if you're thinking of it that way, that the perfection of wisdom must include giving, ethics, patience,

[67:21]

you know, enthusiastic effort and concentration, if it's got those, if it's conjectured with those, then it's connected with compassion practices. Those are compassion practices. The first five prime meters are compassion practices. The sixth is the wisdom. So if you say that, well then you say, well then perfection and wisdom includes those. So, same thing. So, But I'm also saying that if you practice this wisdom without these other ones, and you can, well, yeah, it can be, but maybe it shouldn't. Maybe we shouldn't say, maybe we should say that in the bodhisattva system of the six paramitas, it's not really perfect wisdom if it doesn't embrace these other five. So maybe it's, but it's, but maybe it's just, you know, very powerful wisdom without the other five.

[68:45]

Huh? Yeah, pardon? It doesn't seem wise? Well... Understanding, right? Well, maybe I won't say why. Maybe I'll just say that it's a way, it's a kind of understanding that the person might experience as liberation from all the problems which they knew about, almost all the problems that they had before. And they feel really certain, and they feel really innocent, and they feel really good and they don't care about other people. I don't think so. They might be considered a sociopath. Yeah. They might be manic.

[69:49]

I can't say. The thing about this person is this person is actually pretty free. So they can be manic. They can also be like, huh? What? They can be wild? No, I said for a while, that they might very well be some social activity that might impose upon them the idea that there is somebody else. Yeah, but they might not actually fall for it. For a while, you say for a while, but maybe for the rest of their life, they might never be touched. And this is interesting because this is a case we're coming to, case 55, about not being affected anymore. What? Well, this is the world we live in, ladies and gentlemen. We live in a country where there are people, and actual people, living in this country, who have realized the state I'm talking about. And they are powerful people.

[70:51]

Because they've realized this. And they don't care about other people. They don't. Because there aren't any for them. And they are powerful spiritual leaders. Powerful spiritual leaders. And they have more power and more spiritual realization than some people who are talking about and practicing compassion, but do not, have not realized, do not know about, that there aren't other people. And those people are, you know, don't make us feel creepy, and they are not sociopaths, but these other people almost are sociopaths. They're almost, yeah, almost sociopaths. But they're friends with and supporters of and supported by some of the political leaders of the country. Some of the people who are standing outside the abortion clinics are not just kooks, but they're people who actually have some uplifting confidence that basically they're not going to let go of this lifetime, probably, unless they meet a real big Buddha

[72:14]

So it is creepy. But we're talking about compassion, and I'm just mentioning to you this fact, this phenomenon, I should say, that a person can have some, if you don't want to call it wisdom anyway, it's like they know something. They know that there aren't other people. And they're right. Pardon? Pardon? Yeah, you could say it as well. I don't know if you can say evil, but it's appalling. It's frightening what can happen. It can hurt people, or it can allow people to be hurt. Right? But you've got a person here who, I mean, they've got something going for themselves. It seems difficult or harmful Oh, dear. It seems difficult for... It's hard for me to think of there being a car in there, any more than it would be from a storm.

[73:21]

I mean, it might result in getting a... It's almost like there could be a storm. It's almost like there could be a storm. For them, it would be like there were a storm. But bodhisattvas... The car is not like us. I mean, not... Even a bodhisattva could potentially be disturbing for a situation, but they would be simultaneously committed to caring for all beings in the field. That would be their primary concern. It would not necessarily improve anything. It wouldn't necessarily improve anything, but it might help beings become free. And also not just free, but free in a way that has compassion involved with it. John? Is there no wisdom that's born of love in all of this? Buddha's wisdom is born of love. That's where it's born from. But you're talking about another kind of wisdom also.

[74:24]

Yes. That seems different from Buddha's wisdom. Yeah, it does. It is different from Buddha's wisdom, but it's... But it's a bona fide spiritual attainment. And it is happening in this country. And I say in this country more than almost any place else in the world that it's happening. You can get by with it here easier than most places. These people are on TV and stuff. What? Let's be compassionate to these people. What? You're saying that people are supported by the government and the way you describe the people, and you know that they don't care about those who are close to them. I think people may not care about certain people, but you're saying that they actually reach this rather high state of liberation and don't see other beings, including... In their liberation? I'm proposing. Okay. That if people have realized what I'm talking about, they did not... In their level of their realization, in that realm, they did not see other beings.

[75:37]

Okay? But what you're talking about, you have a sense that they have. That they have what? You said there are people that have actually been functioning out of that... I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt. I'm guessing that they might have that. In the basis of looking at American culture. on the basis of looking at American culture, on the basis of watching people being enchanted by them, on the basis of seeing their power, on the basis of seeing how politicians use them and align themselves with certain people. On this basis, I'll say, maybe they have this high quality of vision,

[76:44]

But I also propose that it is possible to have this kind of vision and not have compassion. I'm proposing that. In other words, I'm proposing that it's not that all people who don't have compassion develop are just like morons and their attitudes are totally off. I'm saying that they can have an authentic and very impressive, admirable state of understanding that hasn't been linked with compassion. And that it won't, and I don't think it's going to be good to try to put down, or even to imagine that they don't have a high state of enlightenment. I have no idea what you're talking about. I guess it's enlightenment. So I feel like I'm... Okay, well... They see their own reflection as well.

[77:57]

So anyway, it's quite good to have your hands raised. What did you say? What? What I'm talking about is something that happens to these phenomena, these appearances. This can happen to what we in the conventional world call people. People can get access to this kind of wisdom. And this kind of wisdom is exactly the same in some sense, in terms of understanding, as the Buddha's wisdom. The Buddha also does not see beings as separate. He gets free of that. He's innocent of that. But that's conjoined with wisdom. Huh? Conjoined with compassion. And I'm suggesting that these can be separated. And I'm suggesting that it actually is happening, that this is happening in America right now.

[79:07]

And if you want to bring me a series of evangelists and so on, I'll try to figure out which are which, who's got it and who doesn't. But basically, I feel like it is happening in America, that such phenomena has been happening in America for a while. that we have an actual thing going on here, and it's been going on for a couple hundred years. What? Is Buddha's wisdom anything other than a storm? It's a storm conjoined with wisdom. Is human existence anything other than a storm conjoined with or without, conjoined with wisdom and compassion? When you join the storm, you see that there's not something called you and it in the storm. It's just interaction when you're in the storm. And when you realize that, you know something about what's going on in the world.

[80:10]

You know a storm. And you're free of this thing about you being separate from the storm and being harassed by everybody. You're no longer afraid. But Buddha's wisdom is conjoined with compassion in that realization. I thought you said that the way to be free of suffering was to help others. Yes, it is. Actually, I didn't say the way to be free of suffering is to help others. The way to be free of suffering is to want to help others before yourself. That's the way to be free of suffering. To want that. But when you actually become free, you no longer think that there are the other beings. But you start with that. That's the bodhisattva vow. You give up a certain attitude and adopt a new one. Excuse me, but with that attitude, you're not going to want to hurt anybody because he clears you, right?

[81:13]

So in that way, wouldn't it be like an insurance policy and these people wouldn't do any evil? We're not self-destructive people. Anyway, these people will not say, will not say what? I want to hurt people. And they won't think I want to hurt people. They won't. But they might not care. They might not care, but the government does things like bomb Iran. or bomb Iraq. They might not care. In fact, they might stand there right next to President Bush and say, this is a good thing. Or if they don't, some of their cronies who know them might do it. What comes from prejudice? Just discarding the Iranians, they're saying, you know, go ahead, bomb the Iranians, bomb Iraq. It wouldn't allow bombing of the Canadians.

[82:16]

I mean, they make some choices. They're not liberating people. I'm not liberating in that sense that you're describing it, but it kind of is, but there's people who have prejudices against certain countries. There's certain kinds of people that have no... The politicians are doing it, right? These people aren't in the government necessarily, but these people will allow the government to do certain things. They will support the government's war policies. They seem to be able to do that. They could do that. They wouldn't then think of hurting anybody. They wouldn't do that. You're right. They would not think of hurting anybody. In that place, there is no idea of hurting or helping.

[83:18]

Just a second. Just get that point. In that place, you do not think of hurting or helping other beings. You don't, because you don't see it that way anymore. However, that realization by itself would allow, you would allow, you wouldn't care about these other things. You could not care about them. That's what I'm saying. You would not go to war against somebody. But your position could be co-opted by a government which wanted to hurt other beings. You could allow that. Because you wouldn't know that that goes with valuing all life. And that you wouldn't allow bombs to be dropped, you wouldn't go for bombs to be dropped on soldiers and then killing soldiers even, not to mention civilians. You wouldn't go with that. if you had compassion. You just, I don't think, I don't think you would. But I'm saying that such of you, such of, such, that I'm saying that it is possible to have a state of understanding and liberation that you would allow cruelty, that you wouldn't care.

[84:23]

You wouldn't do it yourself. You wouldn't think in those terms from that place. Yeah. Well, yeah, you would, but it doesn't mean that you wouldn't still keep taking care of your children. It doesn't mean that. If a feeling arose in you, if you have your own children, a feeling arises in you, an affective feeling, like you like your kids, you'd let that happen. And if a feeling arose in you that you didn't care about your neighbor's kids, you'd let that happen. Compassion would not intervene in your lack of caring about other beings. But if you cared about other beings, that would be okay. It wouldn't bother you. You're free of that. So your usual prejudices would just go forward, as usual, whatever they were.

[85:28]

And you'd be free of your own prejudices. If you preferred your own kids, fine. But on the other hand, if you didn't prefer your own kids, you could just let them not be cared for. You could do that, and it wouldn't bother you. You'd be free of it. and also you could help them rather than other kids, and that wouldn't bother you either because you're free of what other people think of you. You spend more time with your own kids than you do with the neighbor kids. You send your own kids to college, but you don't send the neighbors to college. It wouldn't bother you that people say that stuff to you. It wouldn't get to you because there's no other people talking. You've got a place of sanctuary, freedom from all this stuff, which is good. Buddha has that too. But Buddha also uses that to help people. It's conjoined with this compassion. Pardon? Yeah, right. That's right.

[86:30]

And what I'm talking about is not bringing it out in a balanced way. But you can't just... What? What? Well, I think it's okay if it scares you. You see, I think this is an appalling thing, but what I'm suggesting to you is don't get rid of the being appalled by assuming that people can't have this kind of spiritual attainment, this appalling situation can't manifest, because I'm proposing to you that it can. That you can have someone that actually is in touch with reality at a certain level and is liberated by that contact. And they're not going to be probably a troublemaker, but if you have a whole bunch of people like that, they're going to be happy and they're going to let certain things happen which you don't want to have happen. And they could even tell some other people who don't have that attainment that they can also not care about these people.

[87:33]

So they can allow prejudice. That kind of being has to be new. That's what I'm saying. In a certain way, but the being itself doesn't care or not care. They don't care or not care. This is a liberated realm. This is a kind of liberation. Pardon? You were talking about the brilliant. Yeah. But it's a little bit different for a sociopath because this person's not going to do this stuff. This person won't do this stuff, I don't think. I haven't heard of any examples of this person. But you're right, might, might not. But probably won't. Is this a practice throughout the bee? There's this... Like the eyes all over the body. You know, I think maybe we should end the class. And you guys... But if you're upset by this... I think that's because you have compassion.

[88:38]

If you didn't have compassion, this wouldn't bother you. But this is possible. This is the world we live in, that such things can happen and do happen. And this is part of our study, is to figure out how to deal with this phenomenon. Okay, that's what I feel. Can we pick this up later? Sure, definitely. Yeah, if you're up for it. Remind me. Passionately. This is an awakening. We need to stop because some people want to go and some people want to stay. So let's just let everybody go.

[89:16]

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