Oh, I don't know. Some of you, Brock, I get the feeling I'm testing this class out. I see some new faces. Want to see what it's like? Yeah. Tonight won't be a usual night. Okay, so one of the things I want to tell you is that in this class, Thought might cross your mind that you're the only person in the room who doesn't know what's going on. Because everybody's just going to be sitting there, you know, listening to me talk. And you might think that they all understand because they're looking so kind of like, you know, perky. And you might think, I don't know what's happening. So I better not say anything because all these other people do and they don't want me to slow the class down. But it might not be true. Someone else might also be kind of like not knowing what's happening. So if you feel like you're getting left behind and don't know what's happening, and the class is sort of going off down the road, leaving you somewhere deep in thought behind everything, you can raise your hand, stop the train, and let us know what's going on.

[01:16]

And then you can get back on. OK? And then the image that I find helpful is that we're jumping rope together. And if you can't get with the swing of the rope, Just say so and we'll stop and start over again. Okay? Are you ready? The rope's going to start swinging now. This is case 53. The Book of Serenity. How many people can see a copy? How many people can't, I mean? Quite a few. Well, maybe you can share with some people. I have a few here. The introduction says, in facing situations you don't see Buddha. Great enlightenment doesn't keep a teacher. The sword that settles heaven and earth obliterates human sentiments. The ability to capture tigers and rhinos forgets holy understanding. But tell me, whose strategy is this?

[02:20]

So, story is, the great master Wang Bo said to his group, you people are all slippers of dregs. You travel like this, where will you have today? Don't you know that in all of China there are no teachers, chan? At that point, fearless monk came forward and said, What about all those who guide followers and lead groups in various places? Wang Bo said, I didn't say there's no Chan, just that there's no teachers of Chan. And so the commentary says, this is an abbreviation of Wang Bo's life. to bring it up completely.

[03:25]

One day Wang Bo went up into the hall and he said to the group, like, what do you people want to look for? And he chased them out with his staff. He was a real big guy, seven feet tall. He started swinging his staff and running after the monks. But they didn't move. They probably moved a little bit, but they didn't run out of the hall. And then he said, you're all joy slurpers. Everybody familiar with the image of dregs slipping? What dregs are? When you make wine, for example.

[04:28]

out of some kind of grain or whatever like in China they make it out of rice rice wine there's some sedimentation that comes out and after the wine sits for a while they decant it and there's some dregs left and some people drink the dregs the leftovers so In the Tang Dynasty, when this story took place, there was a kind of derisive term that was used in some places of calling people dregslerpers. In other words, they're people who are kind of dealing with the leftovers of Buddhism. For example, like they're dealing with yesterday. yesterday's Buddhism instead of today's Buddhism. So he says, if you people travel like this, you practice like this, how will you have today?

[05:34]

The monks weren't present. Sounds like he was saying you guys aren't present in response to the present situation. You're relating to me according to your old idea of what Zen's about. For example, you think I'm the teacher, so you're paralyzed. And they told him, don't you know there's no teachers at Chan? And they still just stood there. But one guy came forward and said what this guy said. And in the commentary, there's a nice story. There's many nice stories. The first one is about this wheelwright named George. A wheelwright named George. He was working in the courtyard of an aristocrat's courtyard.

[06:45]

And he saw the lord of his manor sort of reading in a window. And he said, excuse me, sir, what are you reading? And he said, I'm reading such and such an ancient text, such and such a classic. He said, well then, sir, you're reading the dregs of the ancestors. And the Lord said, you know, Where does a wheelwright get off talking to a lord like that? If you have a good explanation for your conduct, you will live. Otherwise, you'll die. So the wheelwright said, well, I look at it in terms of my own work. If I, you know, when I'm using the chisel, if I go slowly...

[07:47]

It's easy, but it's not firm. If I go fast, it's hard, but it doesn't fit on. Without going fast or slow, it comes into my hands and accords with my mind. There's an arc to it. But my mouth can't teach it to my son, and my son can't learn it from me. Therefore, I just have been making wheels 70 years. And the Lord let him live. I said, you know, therefore, therefore, sir, you're slurping drugs. So this story contains, I mean, is a nice help to understand the broad landscape of this teaching here.

[09:15]

So, if you... If you go fast or slow, you know, if you're biased in your approach to what's happening, you have some problems, like the wheel will be too loose or you won't be able to get it on. But if you're balanced in your approach to your experience, The way comes into your hands, it just inhabits your body and your mind starts resonating with what's going on. But you can't teach this to somebody. You can't teach Zen to somebody. And nobody can learn it from you. But you can keep making wheels. Now, if your son or daughter comes to learn it from you, if they try to learn it from you, they can't learn.

[10:27]

Because that isn't how you learn. You didn't learn it by trying to... Maybe you do watch somebody else, but when you watch somebody else, and they're the teacher, you don't learn this. You get in too fast or too slow. Okay? Does this make any sense so far? Still, somebody is making wheels, you know, somebody is trying to make wheels and being upright in that or not, and making them too loose or too tight or not. But you can't learn this from them. You have to try it yourself. There is Zen, but nobody can teach it. But everybody can practice it. And when one person practices it, it does help another practice it, but the other can't learn it from this one. The other just can be encouraged to try, but they cannot learn it, and you can't tell it to them.

[11:30]

But you can at least tell them what to give up, namely give up trying to get it from somebody else. If you're balanced, you're now seeking to become a wheel rider. You make the wheel without trying to be a maker of wheels. If you try to make wheels, you'll never be a wheelwright. If you don't try to make wheels, you'll never be a wheelwright. Without going fast or slow, in other words, you'll become a wheelwright. And all the wheelwrights have to do that but none of them own it, and none of them teach it, and the ones who say that they can't teach are called the teachers. And they do the practice. So, that's it. And sometimes that's like a simple take on this story and on Zen practice.

[12:37]

No seeking Balance. Don't try to get it from others. Don't try to give it to others. And this is the way to help others. Not asking people to get it from you, not giving it to them, is the way to help. And encourage them to not try to get anything, but also... not avoiding you and not avoiding them. Being close, working together and having no gain and loss between. Just meeting. No gain and loss. When alone, you're not seeking. When with another, you're not seeking. When with Zen, you're not seeking. You don't seek Zen. otherwise, of course, you get farther away from it. And you don't avoid it, otherwise you get farther away from it.

[13:43]

Somehow you have to get close to it without seeking it. So that's kind of a good place to stop for a moment and ask her what she's talking about. So if you take in the dregs of these ancients... If you take in the dregs? Of the ancients. Yes. And chew them and digest them and... incorporate them and come up with something that they, in a way, you could use them so they're nourishing and not... Can you use them so they're nourishing and not poison? Yeah. Well, I mean, they are nourishing, but what are they nourishing?

[14:45]

If you go and get the teachings from the Buddha... It is nourishing, but what is it nourishing? It's nourishing your habit of seeking outside yourself for something good or bad. So it does nourish that. So that makes that habit stronger. Now, it might be somewhat useful to make that habit stronger so that you can see how it works. So it's somewhat useful. But he's not asking his guys to get more into their old habits. He's saying... Aren't you habitual enough? Why don't you just, you know, drop that all and run out of the room when I come running at you? So he asked this man when he was reading if it was alive. Pardon? He asked this man, what are you reading? And then he said, is it alive? And he said, they're dead. What would it be to read as if it was alive? What would it be to read a book as though it were alive? Yeah, or to be in this room as if it were alive.

[15:50]

What would it be? Um, gee, are we going to go look for something that it would be? Are we going to try to look around for some life in the room? Am I? Yeah, well, I wonder what it would be like to be in his classes and be alive. Anybody have any idea what that would be like? Anybody can give an example. Are you dragslipping yourself now? Any other comments at this point in history? That's what I worked like last night.

[16:53]

I'm reading a wonderful book about Abraham Lincoln. You know, he originated the term cool. That's what he said. He said, that's not cool. What was real cool? He also originated stand and deliverance. Anyway, Abraham Lincoln. What's going on? My wife says, I'm reading that. And she said, do you like that book? I said, yeah. She said, I hate history. I said, do you hate your history? Just like we do. I mean, just like, you know, like, real cool, real cool. He was saying ironically, though, you know, some people were like playing some fast trick, you know, on the people who were working against slavery. And they were kind of saying something like,

[17:54]

I've got to give you the example, but anyway, he said, that's real cool. And then he gave kind of an example of how illogical what they were doing was. He said, that's cool. It's like they get you coming and going. And was there a footnote that said that was the first night of history that could have been used? No, no. He made that up. It isn't the first time somebody said the word cool, but the way he used it is the way we use it now. The term he used before was usually referring to temperature. Maybe somebody can find an earlier example of where it's used the way we do it, but he's using it the way we do it. He was the first at a lot of stuff, that guy. More and more. I was just telling the priest today that it seems like he could see.

[18:58]

It seemed like he had eyes. And that's what this story is about. It's about having eyes. It seemed like he had them. Anything else at this time in history? Why does it say the people of old and that which they couldn't transmit had died? Where are you lucky? Page 224. Is there any of that story that you just related about the year? Oh, people of old and that which they couldn't transmit have died. What does it mean? Well, the ancients, they're dead, okay? All right? Hello? Yes. And that which they couldn't transmit, like that which I can't transmit. All right? You know the Zen that we can't transmit? Hello? You hear me? I hear you.

[20:00]

It's dead. Dead now. It's gone. Is that okay? Make sense? Just seems like a funny way to say it. Oh, you mean the diction's funny? Yes. Well, that's, you know, that person who did the translation has funny diction. Have you noticed that before? It's quite deep. She often writes in a way that's not actually English. I mean, a lot of people read this and say, would you say that in English? But that's what I think it means, is that it's just like, if the people who wrote those classics, plus whatever goes in the classics that they can't transmit, it's all dead. If you're referring to the Zen that can't be transmitted, then it's neither dead nor alive. Are you referring to the Zen that can't be transmitted, therefore it's neither dead nor alive? Well, what they couldn't transmit, the Zen that they had that they couldn't transmit, that one's dead.

[21:04]

The Zen that you have that you can't transmit, that's neither alive nor dead. That's... yeah okay uh and then um okay should we go on and read a little bit more yes why are we bothering with this story party why are we bothering with this story um I'm sorry, I don't answer a lot of questions. Do you want to ask somebody else in the room? Well, the last class here, when we were studying this case, case 53, we didn't discuss it at all, because I couldn't discuss it without slipping in dregs. So, and Amaya had some problem with that because we went through the whole class and never discussed the case.

[22:09]

It was just, you know, whatever you call it, Saturday Night Live. Because every time I reached for the text, I felt like, I couldn't discuss the text. But tonight is different. Tonight is not drag slurping for me. But maybe for you it is. So you should not listen to this text. Is there a difference between receiving or attempting to receive a transmission from a teacher as opposed to being a student? You've been talking about practice, which is what a student does. Practice is what a student does? Teachers practice too. As students of whatever they're studying. Teachers show students how to study. So we're looking in this book and we're looking at what the ancients had, that the Shalas had students rather than, as part of our practice, rather than looking at it as a teacher to give us something.

[23:17]

We're looking, you're looking somewhere for what? If you're looking, where are you looking? I'm looking at this book. Okay, now you're looking, looking, what are you looking, you're looking at the book for some reason? What is your reason? I'm looking for confirmation of experience. Yes. So, yes, so. And I find it there. Yes. As a student, I'm looking. Yes. Which I find different from asking a teacher to give you something, to transmit something. Okay. I can see that. So what I'm asking is... Is there a different form of approach to being a student, one that focuses on practice and personal experience as opposed to focusing on a teacher, where the teacher is supposed to provide an answer and read all the words?

[24:24]

OK, so are you saying, are you envisioning or talking about a way of practicing where you're practicing and you're working with your experience? Okay, there's that way of practice, that you're paying attention to what's happening and looking at your life. Okay, there's that. And then you say there's another kind of practice where you quote a teacher and you expect the teacher to do the work? Yeah. When I went to college, I expected the teacher to pour wisdom into my open soul. So you're wondering if that kind of second way of study has any relevance to Zen? I look at that second way of studying what's being talked about here as drag surfing. Oh, yeah, right. That's the extreme drag surfing. It's passive. Well, drag surfing doesn't have to be passive. It can be very aggressive. But you're still trying to get something from somebody else, from something else. Instead of having the teacher pour it into your passenger, you could go and, you know, scalp the teacher.

[25:28]

But you'd still be trying to get something. So, yeah, all those kinds of things are trying to get something from someplace else, as though you could learn something from someplace outside yourself. That's kind of like Dresden. Yes? How about confirmation? How does that function in our practice? Confirmation? Is there a place for that in our practice? Um... When you're no longer slurping dregs, well, if you are slurping dregs, then you need to get confirmation of that. But usually, if you're slurping dregs, you can confirm yourself on that one. I mean, if you know you're slurping dregs, you're right. You are. Now, if you can't figure out that you're slurping dregs, then you might need some confirmation in that.

[26:37]

But that's confirmation in your delusion, right? That's confirmation in your lack of faith in your life. That's confirmation that you're demeaning your life. So that might be helpful to get some confirmation, some evidence from some place that you don't trust your life. Okay? But there's another kind of confirmation. It's confirmation that you do trust your life. Right? That could be another kind. But if you do trust your life, At that point you don't need confirmation to trust your life because you do trust your life. But the funny thing is that when you finally do trust your life, part of trusting your life is that you know that you have to go make sure that you can seek confirmation without not trusting your life. when you do trust your life you understand what do you call it trusting your life means you don't go fast or slow trusting your life you're not trying to get anything from anybody else and it comes into your hands it comes into your mind and then you want to test yourself you want to make a chariot that's never been made before not because you don't trust yourself but to dramatize and enact something

[28:05]

your lack of dependence on anything outside yourself. So then you go to make this new thing, this thing that's never been made before, to meet this new challenge which has never been met before. You do this to see if you then depend on that outside yourself. So these monks who don't need a teacher, who don't need Buddha, go to the teacher to see if they can go to the teacher without trying to get anything. And, a lot of times, they think they can go to the teacher without getting anything, but when they actually get there, suddenly they realize, oops, I think there's somebody over there who's got something I don't have. And then they find out that they were dreaming that they really, really trusted their life. They didn't. Because when it came time and they looked into the eyes of the Buddha, they lost confidence and they said, no, I don't really trust this. Well, Fine. That's helpful. Then they go work some more in their practice until they really trust it.

[29:07]

But then again they go back to meet to see if they can not be fooled by the other. Which means not be fooled by your idea that it's other than you. Is that what it means? The myriad beings confirming themselves? Yeah, that's what it means. And when they do, when myriad beings come forth and confirm you, and you feel that, that's where you're at. And you don't feel like you're here and they're over there. They are you. Then you naturally seek to act that with them. It takes two Buddhas to make a Buddha. It takes two Buddhas to really exhaustively understand what's happening. Is that the donkey in the well? The previous case is talking about the process of the two Buddhas, yes.

[30:08]

It's talking about the process by which the true body of Buddha becomes manifest. This one, this story is pointing out a kind of, what do you call it, a major mistake we make in the interaction between Buddha and living being. This major mistake we make of trying to get something, which means when you try to get something, you go forward to get something, to gain something, and the waste product comes out the back end of that. You go like this, and then there's this... You have to go to meet without trying to get anything. You have to make the wheel without going fast or slow. And then it comes into your hands, and then your hands reach out to get the book without trying to gain anything.

[31:09]

And you see them go up and say, wow, here I am going to meet the teacher, going to read the book, going to practice meditation without trying to get anything. It's wonderful. Here I am living my life without trying to get something for it. I need to test this. I might be dreaming. I might be dreaming that I actually feel okay about just being alive. Like, you know, like, I actually understand there's not something more than this. It's not like my life plus, you know, my life plus. It's actually just my life. And I can't get anything out of it or lose it. All I can do is live it. But maybe I'm just dreaming. Maybe if somebody pressed me a little bit, I would suddenly feel like there's my life plus something. So I think I'll go talk to somebody about this. Joe? Isn't the very moment of... Confirming that... The moment that you lose it?

[32:23]

If you... Lose it? That you... Yeah, that's confirmation is you don't have anything. You're confirmed when you don't have anything. But you might be dreaming... You might be dreaming that you understand that you don't have anything. You might say, hey man, I don't have anything. I'm just here, just living. No gaining. This is my life. That's all I care about. But secretly, unknown to yourself, there's a place where you're holding on in the dark. And you can't see it. Because nothing's pressing you. You know, I'm relaxed, I'm willing to go with whatever, and then suddenly there's a place where you're not actually seeing that all things are coming forth and giving you your life. You don't see it. But somebody else, not that they see it, but if you go meet somebody else, suddenly it might fly up in your face. Like when they laugh at you for your arrogance and thinking that you actually have obtained the state of not having anything.

[33:28]

Oh, you don't have anything? Oh, I see. Oh, that's wonderful. Congratulations. May I strangle you, please? And then you say no. Pardon? They say may I strangle you? Yes. Then you say no. Yes. What did you say? You say you may say no? No. Then you say I say no. That might be a very good response, actually. That would be something which someone who didn't have anything might say. Whereas if you thought, okay, I don't have anything, so he wants to strangle me, so go ahead, strangle me. So when the teacher strangles you, you say, pretty good, he let me strangle you, but that's not it. You did a good job on that one. That's not it. Actually, I think I said something about 75%. This is case 63. Case 63. You know? Jiafeng's attendant. Jiafeng died, and so they wonder who's going to be the successor to the teacher. So everyone thought, well, the head monk probably should be the successor.

[34:47]

Head monk said, I should probably be the successor. But Jiafeng's attendant said, just a second, I was the teacher's attendant. You show me how you can be the successor. He said, well, How about if I sit down, offer some incense and die before it burns down? Would that show that I was the teacher's successor? So he did. He put a stick of incense in, sat and died. And the attendant said, you're pretty good at dying, but you still didn't get the teacher's message. So, yeah, the teacher says, okay, let's see you die. Come on, die. If you've got so nothing, let's see you drop body and mind like big time here. You might say, no, thank you. I want to live forever. Or whatever, you know, whatever your thing is. I want to live ten more minutes. Let me call my mother first, whatever it is. Point is, you don't refer to the Zen books to see what you should say on that occasion.

[35:56]

Or you also don't refer to your own smart comments to see what you should say. You don't reach for anything. And then, is that really so? Are you really not reaching for anything? Well, if you aren't, if you aren't, then without reaching for anything, you naturally want a companion. Because the companion which isn't reaching for anything confirms that you're not. But a lot of people cannot have a companion and say, hey, I'm not reaching for anything. But find somebody who really, you really want to have as a companion and then have that person not be outside you. That would be, that's the traditional way that people look for companionship and confirmation of not needing a companion. Okay.

[36:59]

Huh? I didn't get the last thing. It was the same stuff before. Did you get that? Yeah, I got it. I got this stuff before. Well, just a second. Just sort of like tuning the getting part there. And fly it to whatever I said. It'll all work out. So this... Now, this commentary gets really complicated. But I think it'd be fun to read it, even so. We're doing the whole party. Yeah, that's right. So Wang Bo said, you know, if you guys are like this, you'll incur the laughter of others. Who cares? You should just see that there are eight, you just see that there's 800 or 1,000 people and immediately go there. I'm not criticizing people for going to those big, you know, group meetings. Wang Bo wasn't either, but, you know, it's kind of fun, you know, see a big group.

[38:08]

Let's go over there, right? 800 or 1,000. Must be good. But you shouldn't just seek the hubbub, okay? When I was traveling, if I found there was someone at the roots of the grasses, I would stick him in the head and watch to see if he knew the feeling of pain. What's that about? The intestine. Huh? Well, who's at the root of the grasses? Who's he poking there? What is that? Hermits. Hermits? Could be hermits, right? If I did, if I poked him and he knew the feeling of pain, if he did, I would give him a cloth bag full of rice as an offering.

[39:14]

See that one? Understand? You don't? Well, so when Wang Bo was traveling around, sometimes he'd find these people living at the roots of the grasses, right? So then he would go over to them and... He would poke to see if they knew the feeling of pain. I'm not going to poke her because I know she knows the feeling of pain, so I'm not going to put pain on her. But if she was looking like, kind of like, totally like, you know, like, this, I am cool. And, you know, if you poke me, I look so serene that if you poke me, I might not even feel any pain. If you poke them and they don't feel pain, He doesn't give them anything to eat. But if he pokes them and they do feel pain, he says, okay, you're not trying to get anything out of this practice. You're just a human being who just happens to be serene and present. But when I touch you, you feel pain like everybody else. So here, here's some food.

[40:17]

In other words, this guy isn't a drag slurper. He's just somebody who's sitting there in the grass. at peace with where he is. But some people sit in the grass and when you touch him or hit him or something like that, they don't feel any pain. They're beyond all that. Wang Bo doesn't give them support. You know that original story, right, about him, where he comes to this river with this guy, he's hanging out with one of these guys, he's walking with one of these guys, and the guy says, let's go across the river. Wang Bo says, okay. So this guy gets on his hat and goes across on his hat. Or another story is, he just walks across the top of the water. And Wang Bo said, if I knew that beforehand, I would have broken your legs. And the guy said, you know, I honor your great, I really appreciate your compassion.

[41:25]

So Wang Bo is a person who In China at that time, there were these people, you know, up in the mountains who had, you know, great yogis who, you know, they were beyond ordinary human problems, in a sense. And they got these new kinds of problems, but one boy wouldn't support them because they're off the track. Like dying while the incense burning, you saw it. Wasn't he the one that his mother threw herself in the river? She didn't throw herself in the river. She was running after him to call him, and she fell into the river and was taken away by the current. Yeah, he was the one, right? He's a tall fellow with a thing in his forehead, right? This is one vote. He has a perseverance on his forehead. which some people called a jewel, and other people think it was because he bowed a lot.

[42:35]

But again, as we talked about in the last class, he bowed a lot. Ongo bowed a lot. He had a lot of frustrations and touched his head to the ground many, many times, so he wanted to bump here, all those bows. But when we bow in this tradition here, you bow... to express that you're not seeking something from what you're bowing towards. You bow to cut the duality between yourself and others, between your life and your life. You bow to express that you're not seeking anything from Buddha. But again, many people say, well, I'm not seeking anything from Buddha. They don't bow to Buddha. To bow to Buddha 100,000, 200,000 times without seeking anything, that's different. To devote yourself to a living being, to give your whole life to somebody without trying to get anything back from the person, that's one of those ways.

[43:47]

To devote yourself to your children, to your parents, without trying to get them healthy by devotion. devote yourself to somebody who is hurting himself, who's doing all kinds of bad things to himself. Your devotion doesn't influence them at all, as far as you can see, but you just keep being devoted without getting any feedback, without getting any positive feedback, without getting any gain out of the deal, you just keep being devoted. That's the way the Longbow Bow is produced. And you've got a bump here, a bump on his forehead from not seeking anything through his devotion. And some people say it was a jewel. It became a jewel. Taking the jewel to those who trusted him. That's what I'm doing. Here, if you're always taking it easy like this, where will you find today's affair? By taking it easy like this, you understand what taking it easy is? What's taking it easy?

[44:51]

Sitting all day. Sitting all day. Yes, you know, practicing really hard for yourself, to get something, seeking something. That's easy. It's easy to practice hard when you're seeking something. Well, you know, relatively easy. What's hard is to practice with your whole body and mind not trying to get anything. In other words, to live without any gaining idea. That's not so easy. But anyway, if you practice easy like this, where will you find today? Since you're called pilgrims, you should concentrate a bit. Don't you know that there's no teachers of Chan in all of China? And then it says that since Wang Bo, other masters like Yang To and Luo Shan like to carry out this order. They practice the same way. In recent times, Fo Li and Ching Shou, or Yi, never approved of anyone in their lives and instead ended their succession with no one.

[45:58]

So, you know, teachers like to have successors sometimes. But nobody wants to be a successor to people like this. Right? Right? Do you want to be a successor to somebody who won't let you get anything from her? Right? Nobody wants to be a successor to that, for instance. So fortunately there's nobody around here like that, so you can find some people you can get stuff from. And they'll have a lot of successors, and you can be one of them. But if you met somebody like this, it'd be hard to be a successor to this person because, you know, what would you get out of it? Well, nothing, plus if you tried to, you'd get something. So anyway, these people didn't do too well in the successor department. But they were pretty strict about this thing, you know, they set a good example.

[47:06]

So at the time, nobody was interested, but now maybe there is somebody here who's interested. Perhaps. Someplace in America, somebody's interested in Wong Bo's way. Yes? It's possible they had many successors, but no one was successful because those who really learned from them were like, oh, okay, cool, went off on their own and didn't say, I'm Wong Bo's successor. They were just out doing their thing. Yeah, it's possible. Mm-hmm. It is possible. Nancy had her hand up before you, Susan. But you talked, so you got my attention. Nancy? Go ahead, sweetie. I'm just playing with this in my mind, and thinking of how difficult it is to wholeheartedly go through something, and yet... not expecting people in front of me. And is it the same thing as a funny girl?

[48:07]

Does that kind of, you know, ballpark? Yeah. It's the same ballpark. I'll let him go. That girl being half-hearted. Yes, Susan? Um... You said it's not dreaming of letting go, it's actually letting go, which means it's like holding on to your life. Yes? Why? It's like... Like that, that's letting go, that kind of thing. I think this is wrong. I think you would tell me, it seems like the only way I would know that is if I were coming from a place of holding on to your life, to know that I'm not. Well, I don't know how it would happen, but anyway, it comes into your hands. It comes into your hands.

[49:09]

Take your chisel and your hammer, and you work with it, and pretty soon the Dharma comes into your hands. When it comes into your hands, you don't know it. It's in your hands. Some people think they know it, but what do their hands do? Say, I know. What do their hands do? Are you sitting in your hands? It isn't that your mind knows it. Your mind is in accord with it. Your mind is operating in resonance with it. Not that your mind knows it. That's not really harmonious. That's disharmonious. If you've got a mind and the way is over there, this is a problem. This is painful. To be separate from the way, to separate from the Buddha. So, the power of the Buddha, of seeking the Buddha, this is internal to the Buddha. But you don't know the Buddha. You're just devoted to Buddha without even knowing what Buddha is. But that's hard to be devoted to Buddha without knowing what Buddha is. It's easier to know what Buddha is and then be devoted to it, but that's not intimate.

[50:11]

That's always painful. Because, you know, in the end Buddha says, all this time you've been devoted to me as outside yourself and you wasted your time. Sorry. You say, why didn't you tell me this before? You never asked. And I didn't want to discourage you. Kevin? I was wondering if you... You were wondering? You really want to... You're weary. What? Not by me. Got me shocked for a while about my opinion. Well, good. Let me give you a feeling I want to say.

[51:13]

Okay. All right. So, actually, expectations was what I was thinking. Periodic comment time. Expectations, but giving wholeheartedly. I had It reminds me that the heart doesn't set expectations, but it's the mind that sets the expectations. Like you can give wholeheartedly in your heart, you know, that space that you spoke about the other day. Yeah. Right. Somewhere around there. Yeah. That can give, you can give wholeheartedly without expectations, but it's the mind that sets the limit on, that holds it. Without making that into a heavy-duty policy or something, I think I agree with you. I don't think the heart by itself necessarily has expectations. I think the heart does give, and the heart also takes.

[52:17]

It gives and takes, right? But it doesn't necessarily expect to get some blood when it takes. It doesn't necessarily expect to lose some blood when it gives, but it does give and take. Mm-hmm. What did you know? How did you... How is it that you know this? What? I didn't say I knew anything. Excuse me. How is it that you can be speaking of this personally in the way that you are? How? Because I'm standing on the steps of the cathedral. I'm not... And that's sort of like, it's tradition. Because we believe you. Yeah. We listen to you. We listen to your opinion. We try to start first. I don't, I don't, I'm not saying I never slip into knowing things, but what I know is not worth anything.

[53:21]

Really. What I know is not what gives my life happiness. What gives my life happiness is being totally devoted to what's happening. How do I know that? Con-channeling with the person who knows that. It just comes out of my mouth. And it's all because of Zazen. So here, Wang Bo wants something, wants someone. Wang Bo wants someone. Wang Bo wants someone. Okay, he can want things. He can want someone. Who is aroused to come forth and take him up. It turned out there was... I did?

[54:25]

Yes, you should. Yeah, I did skip. You want me to read that part? Yes, I guess so. Okay. Master Shin, Shang Shan, and his spiritual uncle and descendants are also carried out this order. Those who didn't know thought it was a conceit. Want me to comment? Well, If you don't know what these people are up to, okay? Hello? Look deeply into my eyes. If you don't know what these people are up to, you might think they're conceited. All these guys. Okay? Why do you think they're conceited? Because nobody's good enough for them.

[55:27]

Why is nobody good enough for them? Because nobody thinks they're any good. So, as long as people are confused, they will not accept. As long as people don't accept themselves, they won't accept them. As long as they're trying to get something from the teacher, the teacher will not accept. They don't trust themselves. So they seem conceited, all these people. But that's because people don't understand what they're doing. This is Wang Bo's compassion, that he will give up having a disciple rather than do the disservice of pretending that somebody really trusted herself. It's like, oh yeah, you really trust yourself? Sure, yeah. Okay, so you're good enough. No. If there's the slightest bit of doubt in yourself, they won't accept you. Some people think they're very haughty and think that they're too good to have any successors. Everybody comes and they say no. So, pretty nice. Pretty sad for them, too.

[56:31]

I think that's what that's about. So all these guys are doing that. So you might be possible that some of the people after them who had successors were now so strict and not so kind. But maybe, maybe not. Maybe they were just lucky and they found some people who really did stop seeking. So maybe some of these transmissions that occurred were real and not kind of like giving up on people. This is tough stuff, isn't it? So you can see why some people don't like this. So anyway, here Wang Bo wants, he wants somebody like this, right? He wants somebody who'll come forward and not care about, you know, himself. So somebody did come out, somebody who didn't care about himself, and said, Venerable Depths, in all orders are gathering people and teaching. Why do you say there's no Chan teachers?

[57:33]

Wang Bo said, I don't say there's no Chan, just that there are no teachers. Okay, now, for your information, this, in the original record that got this story, this thing goes on over to the, it goes over to the place on the other page where it says, Longbow also said, in the actual flow of his talking to the monks, he gave a longer talk. Okay? And then it goes on here, and it goes beyond that, and I'll read you the whole thing if you want. But where it says, he also said, that actually continuously flows from this place where he says, I just say there's no teachers. And then he goes on to say, don't you see that the successors of Matsu were over 80 and so on? That flows right after that in the original record. We don't know if he actually said it all at once, but in the original record, it's one talk. And then the commentator says that he brought this up in brief.

[58:35]

The whole thing is not there. He just gave part of it, and that's right. He just gave part of it. But before going on to the rest of what he said, the commentator interjects these other statements. So this story happened, and people, word spread about him calling these monks drug slippers, and him saying, you know, big Zen teacher in China, right, saying, there's no Zen teachers. All the other teachers said, no, he was just kidding, you know. There really are good teachers. I had this meeting here with some people one time, and some people said it was a bunch of Zen teachers having a meeting, and somebody said at this meeting that part of the reason for the meeting was there was some, what do you call it, some alleged abuse of a Zen teacher towards a Zen student. And one of the people at the meeting said, well, you can't have any Zen teachers

[59:37]

if they're afraid of abusing their students. You can't have a Zen teacher if they're afraid of abusing their students, the person said. And I said, well, I guess there's no Zen teachers here then, because we're all afraid of abusing our students. I didn't say actually because we're all afraid of abusing our students, I think some of us are afraid of abusing our students, so I guess there's no Zen teachers. Anyway, I said, so there's no Zen teachers. And then after the meeting, I was walking out here, and one of those people in the meeting said, you were just kidding about that no Zen teachers thing, weren't you? If you don't have any students, then no abuse of students. Right? Yeah. But if you have students, you better not be a Zen teacher, because then you're going to have to worry about abusing them. Or not. Which is it then? So... So Wang Bo said this thing about no Zen teachers, and probably all the Zen teachers all over the country, all the students come and say, did you hear what Wang Bo said?

[60:51]

He said there's no Zen teachers. What do you say? Can you imagine? He's a big teacher. He's Rinzai's teacher, right? Linji's master. So people hear Wang Bo saying this. So it's all over China, you know. So the monks at all the different monasteries say, well, hey, teacher, did you hear Wang Bo said there's no teachers? What do you say, teacher? The students appear as teachers. Yeah, right. Is that possible? Oh. Have you ever abused me by any means? I've made many attempts. You won't tell me. No. Was that abuse? So, hearing about this story, all right? People are hearing about this story.

[61:51]

All the teachers and disciples are talking about this. So, here's the top-of-the-line responses, right? So, Yangshan and Guishan are talking. So, Guishan asked his student, Yangshan, well, what about this story? What about there's no Zen teachers in all of China? And Yangshan says, the king goose doesn't talk. The king goose picks out milk from water. And to begin with, he's not a duck. Yes, he did say that. Maybe it's not a... But let me say it again. King goose. Because the king goose picks out milk from water. To begin with, he's not a duck. Pardon? What did you say? It says next, this is truly difficult to discern. Guishan, the master said, Yangshan teacher says, this is truly difficult to discern.

[62:52]

You can go with that, right? Yes. So this is what happens sometimes. Now this is, you see, this is kind of, not Drake circling, but now we're circling, right? That was pretty good, wasn't it? Where did they get off talking like this? Or where did they get on talking like this? Yeah. How did they get on talking like this? I don't know. Huh? I don't know. Don't we all? Especially we like... I don't know. Then Wu Zi Jie spoke for the monk. In other words, so here's what they do, right? They tell the stories around, right? So people say, did you hear what Wang Bo said? Wang Bo said, there's no teachers of Chan in all of China. And then this monk came up. So when they hear the story, they say, well, I was there. Here's what I would have done.

[63:57]

Instead of going up, well, how can you say there's no teachers of Chan? So Wuji says, if I was there, I would have come forward and said, I thank the master for his fine explanation of the reason. Okay, listen. In all of China, there's no teachers of Chan. Don't you know? You say, I thank the teacher for his fine explanation of the reason. That's what Wudzu just said. And then the commentator comes in and says, I say, he's going to say, I say raw words, refined words, cool lips, light tongue. So the commentator quotes Wuzi who made this abrupt comment. So you have these comments, one after another. See how it's going there. They're hearing. This is the world of Zen at that time.

[64:58]

Wanguo does this outrageous thing. It spreads all over the place. And all the masters and students are making these comments. I would say this. The commentator here says, I would say that. And then he says... A Shiman Song said, Wang Bo's instruction was undeniably marvelous, but the moment he is confronted by the monk, he loses one eye. Now we're getting into the eye business. This eye thing is very important. And then the commentator says, I say he snatched away both of the monk's eyes. Okay, so what is this thing about when the monk came forward, Longbo lost one of his eyes? What's that about? He didn't chase him away. He didn't chase him away? What's that got to do with Longbo losing one of his eyes?

[66:00]

Well, instead of answering him, saying, I didn't say there's no charm, just that there are no teachers. He didn't say that, though. He did say that, but... What if he just chased him away? You think if he chased him away, he would have kept his eyes? Maybe. That's the thing. See, that's what these old people are doing. Huh? What's that? And a teacher. Yeah, maybe so. So you see, can you say something so you wouldn't lose an eye? So these people are saying maybe he lost an eye by his response. I didn't say there was no charm, just that there's no teachers of charm. So did he lose an eye in that one? Some people think so. Maybe Carrie's right. Maybe he should have just drove him out. But if he'd driven him out, the monk might have had some more to say. Would have been a different story. Would have been a different story.

[67:02]

So, now, here's the story. You've got the story. You see the story? It's a simple story in a way. Wang Bo says, you guys are all hung up on Buddhism. You're hung up on Zen. Okay? You're drag slurpers. Don't you know there's no teachers even in this thing? So far, things are okay. Right? That's all right. The monk comes forward. The monk coming forward to meet the big teacher. Call him on this. Meet him. This is what he's waiting for. The monk does it. Does Wang Bo blow it or not? There it is. You know, as you check it out, what do you think? What would you say? Is what you say better than what Wang Bo said? Can you come back to this monk? Or could you say something to Wang Bo better than the monk? Or if the monk said, somebody said that to you, could you come back better than Wang Bo? What would you do? If Wang Bo asserted that something exists, when he said that there's chance, there's no teachers of chance,

[68:09]

He didn't say there was Chan. He said, I didn't say there wasn't Chan. But he is asserting a non-existence. He said, I'm just saying there's no teachings. He's emphasizing there's no teacher part of that. Also, before I come, I just want everybody to stop here and just check out that point, because this is a key point right here. This is the gate, you know, keeping your eyes or losing your eyes right at this juncture. Here's the interaction, okay? Case 52. This is the donkey and the whale meeting each other here. Okay? Wang Bo says this, the monk comes forward, look at this interaction. What kind of interaction was that? What happened there?

[69:14]

This is a key point in the story to come focus on. There's more wonderful stuff in commentaries. But where do these commentaries come from? They come from these people. if these comments are any good, it comes from these people putting some attention to this point in the story. It's a story, it's about having an eye or losing an eye, and the eye of the story is right around this interaction. It's where Wang Bo is doing this, the monks aren't responding, and then finally a monk does respond. And in that response, the response is where there isn't a teacher and where the teaching comes alive. So look at that point, look at that point. Here comes the monk. He says that. It's right there. Then Wang Bo responds. It's right there. That's where the I of the story is. That's where you get your I or lose your I. And in terms of the I, you know, the business of the I in Zen, Wang Bo is like, again, one of the first people to emphasize finding your I. Got to have this I.

[70:27]

Got to realize this I. And realize this I through this inner reaction. So look at the reaction. Study the reaction. Study the interplay. Put some energy into that point. And see if you can come forward on that. Okay? That's the focus of this story for us. Can you find another I? Find it. This is an important I. Turn it towards that I. This is your meditation focus that I'm encouraging you to take, this place right there. Okay? Stuart? I was going to say about I's, about losing an I, that... One way to understand losing an eye means to lose something, and another way to understand it is to unify the field of vision. So losing an eye can also mean that there is an awakening.

[71:33]

that takes place. So it's a little ambiguous. And also, to say that he snatches away both of the monks' eyes might be to say, like, that's the state Dursang is in when the lamp is blown out. It is cutting off discriminative consciousness and the monk awakens. So it isn't even completely clear that this is a talk about gain and loss. Yeah, it's a very dynamic situation. But still, I still point you in the eye of the story right there, the interaction. The story starts because he's interacting with the monks and they don't move. They won't interact with them. They interact in this kind of... I don't know what way to articulate it. They don't leave, even though he's trying to drive them out of the hall. They don't leave. So then he calls them drag slippers. And then finally one of them comes forward.

[72:38]

This is a good monk. This is his response. He's coming forward. This is coming forward. That's good. Then he talks. This is good. He's right there. What's happening at that point? Is this really... bringing the truth to life? Are they really meeting at Buddha the Buddha? What's happening? How would it be for you? Do you agree with the monk? Is this monk speaking for you? Or could you speak for the monk? Do you have something else to say? And then, we don't know what Wang Bo would say to you. Do you have something else to say, maybe? What is it? Yes? For some reason, that monk felt entitled to speak. Entitled? Or to have a glass of wine, so drags or full meals. Maybe he did feel entitled. It's possible that he felt that. In fact, Wang Bo wanted him to come forward. So maybe he sensed that. I mean, he did sort of say, Hey, you guys, you're not responding.

[73:44]

Come on. How are you going to have today? You just stand there? We're giving you a chance. How come you're not doing anything? Come on. play. So he did. So I think he was invited. So he came, and that's good. But it's not just invitation to come. It's an invitation to come and meet at that point and respond to the issue. So this story goes very well with the previous one, case 52. This brings out, this dramatizes what is in theory in case, is performed in case 52. So I think we have more work to do on this case. So please look at your leader. Did you want to say something before we stop? I want to say something about the story about the pine tree in the monastery.

[74:48]

Where is that from? The story about the pine tree in the monastery? I don't think I know the letter. Linji planted his pine tree on the branch of the monastery. Is that the story? Where is that from? Linji planted a pine tree on the branch of the monastery. It's an iron flute. Was I talking about this guy? Is that a P.S.? Oh, it was a P.S.? Yes. It was a long time ago. It was history. It was April 8th. Somebody must have sent me that one. It was history. I signed it. Hey, listen, if you guys say something good, I'll sign it. How many people can come next week? How many people can't come next week? I mean... I don't know.

[75:41]

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