So the title of the talk could be Wisdom, Training in Wisdom Beyond Wisdom. Some time ago I mentioned something, and Linda Ruth asked me to spread the word about this point that I raised. Kind of a surprising thing for some people. And that is that it is possible to have some authentic insight into selflessness, but yet still have a number of

[01:03]

behavior patterns which were established prior to that insight, which are still functioning. So in other words, a person could have an authentic insight and still respond to situations in ways that are no longer apropos of that insight. In other words, respond as though they were selfish, as though they thought they were separate from other beings. And so I would say that that's the case, that if you see someone who's behaving inappropriately, it doesn't mean that they don't have some insight. Or put it the other way, if someone has insight, it doesn't mean that the way they're behaving is appropriate.

[02:18]

So there's two mistakes you might make without this piece of information that I just passed to you. One is that you would think that because someone behaves in a certain way that they really don't understand much, whereas they might understand quite a bit. but they're just not acting in accord with their understanding. Or vice versa. You might think, you might have heard or even seen them demonstrate a very good understanding. You might even have heard their teacher say that they have a very good understanding. And then you look at their behavior and it doesn't seem right to you. So you might think, well, it probably is right because they're somewhat enlightened. Whereas actually it's not right what they're doing. Does that make sense to everybody? So, in a way, you might say, well, if you see someone acting inappropriately, you might give them, what do you call it, the benefit of the doubt.

[03:31]

Maybe they do have some understanding, even though they're behaving pretty badly right now, or vice versa. Even if somebody has good understanding, this behavior which you look at and you think is not in accord with the precepts Well, maybe it's not. Okay? So, in other words, there is training, in a sense, there's training after enlightenment. Or there's training after a certain level of enlightenment. There's also a level of enlightenment after which there is no more training. So some renditions of the Buddhist path have been put forth in terms of five aspects or five stages. The first stage is called stage of preparation.

[04:37]

or, you know, stage of getting your blank together, getting your shaitza together. And the next stage is the stage of concerted effort. The next stage is the stage of path, or the stage of seeing, path of insight, where you actually see that the person doesn't have an independent existence. At that point you actually enter what are called... you become kind of like a saint or a junior saint. A saint in training. However, as I said, the next stage comes, which is further training, which is called the stage of... sometimes talk of the stage of meditation or stage of cultivation.

[05:42]

Did I say what the stage of insight was in Sanskrit? It's called darshana-marga. Darshana means seeing. It's a path of seeing. The next path is called bhavana-marga. Bhavana means being, so bhavana means to bring into being. So it's a path where you bring your insight into being, you integrate it with your behavior. You recycle, you plow your insight into your behavior. In the last stage, according to this five-path system, the last stage is called ashaiksha mark, I mean anasrava mark, which means the path which doesn't have any outflows. And in terms of training, the first four are training paths, and the last one is a path beyond training. And actually, the path of insight is rather brief, can be quite brief, and the path of bringing the insight into being can be very long.

[07:01]

So in other words, the training after authentic insight can take many years of practice. There is a time limit on it, though. You may be happy to hear it. Seven lifetimes. There will be no more than seven lifetimes before you get that training done. And in one sense, one perspective on what this training is, is this training is service to all living beings. So after insight, the way you train yourself is by practicing service to all beings. In other words, giving. And giving can take the form of the usual idea of the practice of giving and also the practice of ethics, the practice of patience, the practice of enthusiasm, concentration, and wisdom.

[08:17]

This is the way you practice giving. So I just want to get it over with, write the Sanskrit on the blackboard here. So the first kind of insight is called a purgala. Purgala means the person or, you know, a personality. So it's not that you can't have a personality like... Everybody's got their own personal style. Even if everybody was really enlightened, they still have their own style. But if you realize that the person the person doesn't have a self, isn't an independent self.

[09:29]

Nai, this na, put na together with atma, atman, self, put the na, which means no, together with the atman, you get nairatmya. So you have insight that the person lacks independent existence. And this is the basic insight which enters you into actual selfless Buddhist practice, even though you still may have habits which were developed prior to that insight. However, even though you still have this insight, you still may not understand that all elements of existence even the more subtle elements which compose experience and which we don't usually misconstrue as the self of a person, that those elements of existence also lack self.

[10:35]

To understand that all elements, even the elements and conditions which make up experience, that they lack self, independent self, that's called dharma. And in the Heart Sutra, where it says about when there's no hindrance, no fears exist, in Sanskrit, actually, it has these two written. It's referring to these two. These two insights remove two kinds of hindrance. And the two kinds of hindrance are the klesha, avarana, Vahana. Vahana is covering or obscuration.

[11:42]

And the other one, Nyaya. Vahana. The ultimate reality, the full, completely liberating reality is uncovered when these two kinds of obstructions are removed. So you can look at your experience, moment by moment, without saying that this experience is the experience of a person who exists independent of other persons. That's purgala-nai-ragya. by practicing service to all beings, which would make sense based on the previous insight, you even start to see that the elements of your experience, of the experience of this person, that they too are interdependent with each other in all things, and they also lack self.

[13:02]

Even though you attain this insight, there still may be what you call some leakage or some outflows which can cause some anxiety and fear still at some very deep level. When I say this, I mean even when you have understanding, you don't misconstrue the five skandhas as a self anymore, independent. of the five skandhas. You just see the five skandhas, and you don't see a self in addition to it. Or if you see a self, you understand, you experience the self, and you can see which of the five skandhas it is, and you see again that it's not something in addition to the five skandhas. Your self is not something in addition to your experience. Just seeing that, but still not understanding that the elements of your experience themselves are interdependent, you still feel some anxiety because you're still out of touch with ultimate reality. You're still a little obscured.

[14:07]

You're still a little afraid. There's still some outflow possible based on clinging to the belief that the elements of experience substantially exist independent of each other in all things. that causes an outflow, a disturbance, and fear. But to train yourself based on this insight and the bodhisattva practices of love and devotion to all beings in the form of the six perfections or the ten perfections or a million perfections, those practices bring us into realizing that the elements of our experience also lack inherent existence. And then there's no disturbance. There's no hot floors. There's no fear. And then that full realization is coupled with the practices which you've been doing all along of service to all beings.

[15:11]

But now the compassion is conjoined to a fully developed wisdom. And so the compassion becomes even greater and more effective. So that's a basic story, which I just told you. Any questions? Well, you said elements. Skandhas? Skandhas. That's one story, elements, five elements. Crisis and conditions. Well, the elements, when you have an experience, the main conditions for the experience can be categorized in five groups. You can fully account for your experience by mentioning those conditions. So if you tell me your experience, we can talk about it, and we can talk about which skandhas are there.

[16:23]

I wouldn't get anything outside the five skandhas. Outside the five skandhas. We have this tradition of the five skandhas' picture of experience, and supposedly now, after a number of years, couple thousand years now of looking at experience, people seem to be able to account for any experience as any conventional experience anyway, as some type of composition of those five skandhas. So those are the conditions for an experience, a normal conventional experience, subject-object type of experience. Okay? And then, if you think there's a self, then you can tell me, well, is that an experience of that, or a sense of that, or some data of that?

[17:24]

And if you tell me that, then you can tell me what is the experience, and then I can ask you, well, doesn't that belong in such and such a skanda? And you can say, probably, no. And I say, well, where would you put it? And you might say, well, can I have a sixth skanda, please? But really... Like that, just like that. Yeah. So there... But if you have to tell me what you're like, I would say, well, that sounds just like your good old Force Gundam number 13. You know? And here, let's look it up and see what it says. Doesn't that sound just like what you said? And all the ancients said that they called that, you know, diligence. Or, you know, cuteness. You know, that's already been accounted for in the list. Isn't that what you're talking about? But still, even that level of insight, when you're really convinced of that, there's still two more problems. One is habits, and the other is that you still may not understand that the skandhas themselves have outflows.

[18:28]

All the elements of experience also have outflows, because, like, there's faith in something, and there's diligence about something. They're all interdependent, so they don't exist but you still could be holding on to the independent existence of the elements of your experience, even though you don't add a self on top. And holding on to that still is causing a subtle dualism, a subtle sense of independence, a subtle sense of clinging, a subtle disbelief in the interdependence of all phenomena. And therefore, on some subtle level, sort of pre-personality, you're scared. There's some fright of the system. There's some fright. So nyaya means view, your knowledge. Yaya means view or knowledge. And it means, you know, shorthand for inappropriate or incorrect knowledge. Your knowledge, you don't really understand completely the whole range of your experience.

[19:35]

Yes? Could you just briefly define what you mean by outflow? Outflow... And outflow, you know, means leakage, but also the basic meaning of the word is flood. And it means it could be flooding, something flooding into the life system or flooding out of the life system or flooding within the life system. Some sense of gain or loss, some kind of like polarity, or I one time heard Gregory Bateson talk about a circuit. It's like there's a circuit. Like it goes from positive to negative or left to right or gain. So these gain-loss circuits in your mind. Whereas the total ecology of your mind, there's no gain or loss. But if you look at the different elements which compose an experience, there's some kind of transaction going on. In the Abhidharma, it says, it describes, it says, you know, what are the things that don't have outflows?

[20:44]

And what are the things that do have outflows? It says, literally, 72 dharmas have outflows. In other words, all the experience, the five skandhas and the subdivisions of the five skandhas into 72 elements, all of those have outflows. What doesn't have outflows? Well, the two kinds of nirvana don't have outflows. And the path doesn't have outflows. But what is the path composed of? The path is composed of the 72 dharmas which have outflows. How come the path doesn't have outflows? Because the path is the totality of the system, of your mind. And there's no gain or loss in the whole five skandhas, or the whole totality of your experience. So when you understand your whole experience, there's no gain or loss. But if you look at the elements, there's gain and loss. And within that, there can also be interjecting a self, which there's a big gain and loss around that.

[21:49]

That's the grossest kind of gain or loss is around the self, which is totally imposed on experience. And a metaphysical concept is brought into this experiential field, and it causes a big disturbance and lots of anxieties. and lots of outflows. Yes? So, wouldn't it be correct to restate what you're saying? Because you said the totality of the path doesn't have outflows. And there's a teaching that identifying each constant element is error, but there's also a teaching that what is manifesting right now is Buddha. So, is that the same thing as saying that the total circuit, considered as a whole, there are no outflows, but cutting off a part of it and identifying with it is outward?

[22:54]

Does that make any sense? Yeah. To me. By the way, the whole picture isn't a circuit. The whole picture of a given moment isn't going anywhere. But looking at parts of it, they're all going someplace and doing something. But if you look at them even more thoroughly, you realize that the way the story of how they're going and coming, or gaining or losing, that also depends on something. So there really isn't gain and loss there either. So it's like a partial story of what's going on is what makes the sense of gain and loss. So I'm trying to integrate this teaching that the way we are right now is perfect or is Buddha, but teaching also that how we perceive things is delusional. You're trying to integrate how it can be Buddha that we perceive that we're delusional.

[24:02]

Yeah. Yeah. And that's ultimate truth. That the way we are is that Buddha and delusional being are actually inseparable. And there's nothing else on top of that. They're just sentient beings who don't understand, who are inseparable from Buddhas who do. There's no Buddhas like over in that park and sentient beings over in this park. But sentient beings think that Buddhas and sentient beings are separate. Buddhas can see sentient beings and Buddhas, but they don't see them as separate. They know that all Buddhas are practicing together with each person who thinks she's practicing by herself. And the way she actually is, which she doesn't understand, that is precisely what is meant by Buddha.

[25:08]

Buddhas would like her to see that and understand that because she would be happier. But the nature of a Buddha is a Buddha is not happy when a Buddha doesn't understand what a Buddha is. So if we don't understand what we are, we're not happy. When we do understand what we are, we are happy. And I'm just talking about two levels of understanding what we are here. The first level is you understand that the person is not cut off. In other words, you understand the person is something which is made up of and construed out of very clear experiences, which you can see and which can be understood. And then, the next level of understanding what we are is that the elements of the experience themselves are interdependent. So when you understand what you are, hindrance is removed, ultimate reality is intimately what you are, and there's no fear.

[26:17]

And to move from one level to insight to the other, it turns out you do these bodhisattva practices, which, again, is kind of, to me, surprising in a way. That you move from one level of insight to a deeper level of insight through love and compassion. And that's also the way you train yourself out of your old habits. which were based on both levels of delusion. You know, purgala-atmya. Most people don't even see dharma-atmya. It's in the background. The purgala-atmya, the belief in the person, the self-worth of the person, is so gross and so overwhelming that they don't have time to even look behind it. It's such a mess, they don't have time to look at a feeling, or notice that they're angry or greedy. But it's there in the background, causing this subtle disturbance.

[27:32]

Yes. So what's the difference between self and the idea of a self? Which function does it have? The idea of a self is an idea, and so the idea is one of the skandhas. It is one of the conditions for the belief in a self, which is more. The belief that a self is more than an idea. Right? So, the idea of a self is one of the things a person could use to, like, believe that there is a self that's more than just an idea. There also could be a smell of the self, which a person might use as a basis for... There could be a sound of this, you know, the sound of yourself, the touch of yourself, the most certain emotions which you could say are, that's my emotion, you know,

[28:42]

there can be identifying with such and such an element, and then construing that that element overarches the entire experience and owns it. So, you know, karma is something that the actor owns. The self that's imagined as overarching the experience that overarches the karma or the overall pattern of the mind. So is the problem, well, it's a problem anyway, let's say it's a problem because if you're one of us, it's repeated continuously. If you're one of us, what's repeated? Like a benefit you're selling. You have to, so, in other words, it's now the case. Yes. It's constantly being treated, constantly getting that information. So you constantly have five skandhas, you mean? Yeah. So you have five skandhas, yeah. Okay, so what's next? Well, all the information, if you're not, I guess if you're not concentrating, it's constantly...

[29:52]

temptation to believe in self, because, even for just a few seconds, because you're constantly being bombarded with a reminder that you might have some sense information that might pertain to you being a sense of self. Yeah. Even if you're concentrated, that still goes on. But if you're concentrated, you could notice, for example, it says a sense of self. And if there is, then you could tell yourself or somebody else what that was. Is that why we're always talking to ourselves in the Zazen? Yeah, because you're a true student of Soto Zen, you're always studying yourself in a concentrated way. And you ask yourself, is this self, or you actually don't ask yourself, you just ask. There's the question from ancient times, is the self a six skandha? Is the self something other than five skandhas? Which skandha am I getting this idea of self from? and you find the skanda, you say, well, this skanda is the self.

[30:55]

But that's not the self. This skanda can't own the other four skandas. So that falls through. It's not really a self. It's a feeling. It's a smell. It's a consciousness. It's an emotion. So is there a problem there? No. Yes. Referring to what you said at the beginning, could there be a selfless behavior without insight? Yes. There can be selfless behavior without insight, except if there's not insight in the background of the selfless behavior, might still be a deep, a latent insight, I mean, a latent delusion. So it's possible that without this kind of insight, or without this kind of insight, without either type, you practice the bodhisattva, you know, practices.

[32:00]

But, in fact, when you're doing the bodhisattva practices, even though you don't think you have an insight, you do. So you have this insight as soon as you start doing bodhisattva practices. As soon as you start practicing giving, you understand purgala nairatnaya. But by giving, I mean the giving in the sense of the giving paramita rather than the giving in the sense of the whole range of paramitas. Because you can't give prajna paramita until you have this understanding of the selflessness of dharmas. But if you're actually practicing giving, you have insight into the selflessness of the person So bodhisattva practices, if you put the bodhisattva practices next to the usual path, the usual five-stage path, the bodhisattva practices start at insight and go further from there.

[33:07]

So if you're really practicing giving, at the bodhisattva practice of giving, even before you reach the perfection of giving, you have this kind of insight. And to practice giving, even if you're not good at it, you still have this kind of insight. But if you have this kind of insight, and you do those practices, then that tends to go with integrating the insight, plus also, which is really what I find so wonderful, it actually also attunes you with this very subtle level of reality, which is not an experience. because you're realizing the emptiness of the experience, of the elements of experience. So it's actually that you attune yourself, your life becomes attuned with a reality that is more basic than human experience and doesn't start and end with human experience.

[34:12]

But human experience depends on that reality. And we can actually realize that reality, which we can't know as an object, through the bodhisattva practices. which I found rather surprising. Anything else? Any other questions? Yes? Why do you find it surprising? I guess I didn't think that compassion was the way to the most subtle wisdom. I guess I understood that the most subtle wisdom would give rise to the most developed compassion. And I understood some compassion necessary to be able to practice. But then I thought, maybe once you have insight, that the insight, I more thought of insight and concentration working together.

[35:13]

But I didn't think of concentration as love and compassion, as deepening your concentration and your wisdom together as part of the practice of compassion. I didn't think of it that way, but now I do. And working with other people for their benefit is a concentration practice. And if you have insight enough to work for other people's benefit, and you are working for their benefit, then you're doing concentration and insight together. And through compassion, your concentration and insight are building on each other, or deepening each other, and your insight is getting more and more subtle, and your concentration is getting more and more deep. But somehow the language didn't feel like that for a long time. Yes? Are you saying that even selfish giving gives rise to an experience of selflessness, or in the act of giving itself there's an experience of selflessness?

[36:18]

Well, did you just say selfish giving? Selfish giving. I don't count selfish giving as giving. You're talking about, like, the real parmita, giving without... No, not the prajna, not the dana parmita, but the dana which is just regular dana, okay? That is, there's insight in regular dana, not the dana which is purified in three wheels, as we say. When you realize that giver, gift, and recipient are interdependent, then you realize prajnaparamita. But even before you understand the interdependence of the constituents of the giving process, You could have sincere giving, which is not selfish, where you actually feel terrific about giving something. How come you feel so good about getting something? I mean, like, really feel good about it, not because somebody saw, not because you think you're going to get something for it. You just feel good because you're touching reality when you give that way.

[37:24]

When you give without trying to get something, you're actually getting close to ultimate reality. And you feel really good about that because what you feel bad about is the slightest distance from ultimate reality we feel bad about. I don't know, we're just so lucky. We can't feel really good all the way and be totally fearless until we're really intimate with ultimate truth. And giving gets us very close to that. Now, there still could be in the background, though, an established belief in the elements of existence. But when you give that way at that moment, you don't believe in yourself. Obviously, at that moment, you're happy because you don't believe in yourself at that time. Now, could it reemerge? Could that belief reemerge? Actually, you know, it seems like it can't. But according to another teaching is that it may re-emerge but it's never going to take over like it was before you actually gave at that time.

[38:35]

You're never really going to revert and never really be happy believing in yourself again. So in seven lifetimes or less you're going to be like really finished with the course and ready to really have enjoyable practice. Do you recommend getting just out of practice when it feels... Whether it feels joyful or not? Well, if it's an emergency, yes. But that doesn't count as spiritual practice. That's more like, you know, somebody else needs something. But I kind of feel like it's okay if you come up against, in the process of such practice, that you sometimes feel that resistance, that stinginess. That's part of it. But I feel like as long as the stinginess is there, you're not given yet. But it's good to hang out and get intimate with that stinginess. That's what often talks you into the place where you can feel how nice it would be to give.

[39:38]

And then you think about how nice it would be to give until you really feel good about it, and then you give it. So as a spiritual practice, I think it's better to give a penny and really enjoy it than to give a dollar and regret it. It's very bad to regret doing good things. It's very good to not regret doing good things. So, it's good to give a penny and not regret it, and it's bad to give a dollar and regret it. If you give a penny and enjoy it, then guess what you can do next? A nickel. And then you enjoy it. And then if you enjoy that, say, geez, maybe seven cents. And gradually you work your way up to large donations, which you really enjoy, and you really enjoy it. That's giving. Giving is joy. That's the name of that stage of practice for bodhisattvas. The giving stage is called joy. And based on that joy, you move into another practice which is not so joyful, which is a little picking you.

[40:47]

The ethics practice, where you get into being very careful about all the things, all the little karmas that are happening, which is kind of troublesome. But bodhisattvas give themselves to the practice of ethics. When you give yourself to the practice of ethics, you again demonstrate the understanding that the person is not an independent agent. that the person is not independent of his ethics. So it's another kind of giving is ethics. But ethics is not so joyful apparently. Well, sometimes it is, but when you're having, you know, when you're not in accord with it, it really hurts. You know, when you take on the ethics, take on the Bodhisattva practices, and then you don't live according to them, it's kind of painful, right? You feel bad, you feel remorse, because the Buddha said, don't kill, and you just kill, so you feel bad, right? But feeling bad about killing is part of giving.

[41:50]

So anyway, just back to what he said, selfish giving is not giving. So basically giving is selfless, but there can still be some subtle sense of self in negotiation, even though you really are giving selflessly at the level of the person. If the person's making a profit on the giving, it's not giving. If you're getting promoted from your gifts, that's not giving, that's just not a business deal. Which is fine, but, you know, it's not giving. I think there was somebody before David. A hand over there to the side there someplace. Was there? No? You were ahead of David. Yeah, that's what they think. Okay, okay. Well, I had one question, but that can wait until another time. Now I'm interested in this joy which giving offers... Now, you said that to give without wanting anything for the self, without wanting to get anything, is the pure one, is that.

[43:04]

Right. It's like Donna, pardon me, Well, at least it's working in that direction. Don't empower me to strictly speaking means that you understand that the self, the gift, and the recipient are interdependent. But even if you don't understand that, you can still have a big joy at giving to somebody else who you don't think is you and who exists over there, and you exist over here to some extent. You can still, on some level, feel some separations. and still get a kick out of it. You're just not clinging to it anymore. What about the desire to get the kick? What about that? I can notice that in things that I've done. Like, oh, I'm going to give this and that. I'm not happy in giving. That makes the giving less joyful, and it pretty much can totally destroy it. But even if you still have that sense of joy afterwards. Right, that's what's hard. Here you gave without trying to get any joy.

[44:07]

You got the joy, now you got the joy. Now the next time it's harder, right? Because you try to do it again. The last time I gave without any concern for myself and it was really great. So now how can I do it in that way so I get that same thing? Except this time I'm trying to get it for myself. So how can I talk myself out of that? Well, it's interesting. I actually just thought of it from a different angle, though. What if, like, I had to make a decision to give something, right? Like, I just made a decision that I'm going to hand this to Meg, but I made the decision before my hand went, you know, perceptually speaking, right? But I was already happy that I had made that decision, you know what I mean? Before it ended up in Meg's hand. So where's the giving? Like, where is the giving? Where is there an opportunity for me to have it before it happens? I'm not following that. I hope everybody else is. I'm curious if anyone else is. Do you want me to understand too? Well, if you can. Tell me again. I'm more delayed.

[45:08]

I'm going to give $20 to the Green Gulch donation box one of these days because that arouses a thought in my head that is really kind of joyful. Yeah? That counts. Right? Now I've just... Now in my head... Right? In my head... I'm already feeling the joy from the giving that has gone on here. That's where it really happens. It happens here. The giving happens here. Then sometimes you follow through on physically doing it. But first of all, in your own mind, you want to give. So you can actually sit here and think about giving the Golden Gate Bridge to Linda. and feel really good about that. And that counts as giving. If you really would like to give her some, you know, some income property. That counts.

[46:08]

Okay? Then when you actually, like, go and, like, and give it to her, it's okay that you enjoyed it as long as you don't follow through in order to, like, enhance your joy. Or ask for tolls. It does count when you... First of all, it's in your head that you think about it. But sometimes you give it before you have a chance. Sometimes you give so fast and you don't even notice that in your heart or in your head you're already... Things get really nitpicky like that. It's really easy to not even know if an action or thought or whatever is or wasn't a chord. Yeah, that's part of the difficulty. Is that you're... If there's any belief in some substantial reality, you're still somewhat hassled in the practice of the precepts because you could be not doing them appropriately. You're always wondering, am I in accord with the precepts? You're always kind of like wondering about that. And that's okay.

[47:11]

That's just a sign of incompletion of the practice. And that's why it's kind of difficult, because you could be off. People want to know, how can I find out if I'm right? Well, that's just clinging to the opposite of I'm wrong. That's like assuaging your anxiety, which is coming from your lack of complete understanding. It's not going to take away your anxiety to grasp, I'm practicing the precept right. You're still going to really be anxious, but you're going to be distracting yourself by this award ceremony you're going through. As soon as the ceremony's over, you're anxious again that maybe you're wrong, or etc. So then again, maybe you grab, I'm right. I'm practicing these precepts right. So if you grab, I'm right, you're in trouble. And of course, if you grab, I'm wrong, you're in trouble. But both of them are distractions from the basic anxiety which is arising from you haven't fully realized the wisdom beyond wisdom. To feel that you're practicing precepts and you're wondering,

[48:12]

Am I off? Am I on? I could be either. Both are kind of like not in accord with reality, to grab either one of them. So then you feel the basic situation, which is a constant prod. My understanding is not complete. I still haven't settled a matter all the way to the bottom. The precept practice helps you feel that. Helps you feel you don't completely understand them. And it's a cop-out to sort of swing into a direction of, I'm doing them right, I'm doing them wrong. I'm sorry, so where does it fit in? Excuse me, I'd like to say, it's okay to confess, I think I did it wrong. Just don't be so sure. Don't say, I broke the precept and I just happen to know that's really true. So since I'm a bad person, I get to also be self-righteous. So where does it fit?

[49:14]

I think it's the Kendra call that says when dharma does not fill your body and mind, you think it's already sufficient, but when dharma fills your body and mind, you understand that something is missing. It seems like I guess when you've perfected the practice, then you're beyond this right and wrong. So then it seems like in that case, nothing would be missing. That seems like, I'm just a little confused how these two things fit together. Well, you understand the part about Dharma doesn't tell you you think you're okay, right? Right. In other words, you think, I'm doing the precepts perfectly. Oh, okay. But that part's pretty simple, right? Yeah. So when Dharma does fill your body and mind, you think, well, maybe I'm not. Maybe I don't understand these precepts. Maybe you don't. That's right. Maybe something's missing. Yeah, maybe. Now, he says something is missing. You could also say, well... Yeah.

[50:14]

What's missing? Well, how about all Saint Jinping's enlightenment? How about, you know, the work of the bodhisattva is incomplete? Uh-huh. Yeah. Fine. I knew about that. Thanks. I already knew that. Okay, I'm sorry. One last thing. So, but then that sounds like an impermanent situation. Like a... What's an impermanent situation? The bodhisattva's work not being done. Like... like that we're working on something here, and at some point it will be finished. I guess, you know what, it could be finished, but it's, since it's such a big job, some of the areas, if you look at the vows of bodhisattvas, you know, it's interesting, Samantabhadra's vows, they say, you know, I will do this practice until all sentient beings have, you know, blah, blah, and blah, blah. And then it says, but since they're limitless, this practice is limitless.

[51:17]

There's certain things which bodies have a vow to that doesn't, they don't end. But it's interesting that some of the things on the list, they're really big, but they do end. So it just says, I will do this until all these such and such happen, and then I will stop. And what they say is like, geez, that's really big. But to some of them they say, there's never going to finish. So some of these vows do not end, according to that teaching. But... Maybe that's okay for Bodhisattvas because they really enjoy their work. Anything else tonight? Oh, yeah. Oh, sorry. Janie. Back to giving. There's an experience I have giving where I get a lot of joy out of seeing somebody else helped or happy. Yes. But at the same time, there's a way which also, I think, reinforces my sense of separateness because there's something that goes on with me at the same time that's like, oh boy, I got to help them.

[52:30]

Something like that. Yeah, that's a little bit of a problem there. So there's this great story about Nagarjuna, right? And his disciple Aryadeva. So there's this big heavy-duty shaman up at, I think it was at Milana University, who was defeating all the Buddhists in debate and causing a big disturbance in the Sangha. And Nagarjuna was invited to come up and... save the monks but he was busy with something he wanted his disciple to do it so he told Aryadeva what you need to do to take care of this guy in the debate so you go up there and do that but on the way by the way you're going to probably get asked to give something and if you give it and don't regret what happens to the gift you'll get it back but if you regret you won't get it back

[53:34]

Can you believe that? So this great yogi, philosopher of Madhyamaka's philosophy, going up to the monastery, and a beggar, a blind beggar, asked him for one of his eyeballs. So, I don't know, but he removed his eyeball anyway. This is before, you know, modern day technology. So he removed the eyeball and gave it to the beggar. The beggar tried to put it in his eye but couldn't get it to work, right? So Aryadeva is walking along with one eye given away. He's walking along and the beggar gets angry. He takes his eyeball and smashes it on the stump. And Aryadeva looks back and regrets having given it. So he doesn't get his eye back.

[54:38]

And Aryadeva's name got changed from Aryadeva to Kanadeva. Which means one-eyed god. Can you believe we have a story like that in our tradition? So, anyway, if you give and think about what happens to it, and care whether they use it well or not, or whether they're happy, or anything like that, it can lead to regret, which undermines the value of the gift. You really have to give it. That book, what is it called, this thing about the gift, you give it to a circle, right? You give it to the circle, you don't know where it's going to go, you actually give it and you... Don't know where it could go. Now, if you think it's going to hurt somebody right away, well, you can still see it. You shouldn't give it. You don't know how it's going to work. It does come back to you, but you can't see that. If you're trying to, like, say, I want to give it and I want to know what happens with my donations. So people make donations to Zen Center and they want to know, come back and check how did you use it, right? Well, that's undermining. Our funders just say, well, you make a donation and we're not going to tell you what to do with it.

[55:43]

Then you get more merit. So... The even more joyful way to give is to give so completely that you don't even regret people misusing the gift. You don't regret giving it. You're sorry that he smashed it, but not regret giving it. Amazing, huh? Any other comments, questions? Is that it? Yes? Oh, I think Linda was next. Excuse me. Just when you were talking about giving in the mind, it just reminded me of Shakyadeva, the guy from the Bodhisattva Way of Life, where he's this monk who doesn't have very much to give, but he gives parasols and gold and anguans and wonderful fragrances and music and celestial food and all that in his mind to the Bodhisattva Way of Life. And I remember reading that thinking, well, with my staff, I can give anything I want. Right. There's so many things you can give away in your mind, and nobody's going to regret it.

[56:52]

Nobody's going to get angry at you, unless you tell them, I guess. I thought of giving your house away. It's outrageous. Yes, you next, I think. I'm thinking about giving out. being selfless, and just let's say we are here, the training place, it's selflessness. Yes, right. So, I'm wondering, often I heard that at some point it's very important to do ego work, to be selfish, to say what I just want for myself. So I'm wondering is it important even to explore, is it right? And when yes, is it because there is a way to even explore this side or to be able to be selfless

[58:05]

Does it mean that I have to explore for that my selfishness, my wanting to have everything for myself? And when this is true too, is then, for example, Green Gorge a good place to explore this? Well, I think yes. So, like, I plan to talk about this on Saturday, about one of the main functions of our forms is to surface our selfishness. So when you have a schedule, you know, that's a good way. You have a schedule, you come into a place where you're committed to follow a schedule, and the schedule then is a way for you to become aware of your selfishness. So when the Han goes, you can feel, oh, I don't want to go. You don't have to jump up and down and scream about it, but you can feel, oh, I want to finish this letter, or I want to sleep a couple more minutes, or I want to do some more yoga, or I want to read one more page.

[59:13]

You feel that. See, that schedule, the forms of practice, are one way to help you surface and feel that self, that self-cleaning, that self-concern. And train yourself to be free of it, because the more you watch it, the more you realize it's much more pleasant to just be the sound of a honk. And when the honk goes, you just move, you go. And you see, what you first of all have to see, what it's like to resist by wanting to not go, or some other people resist by wanting to go and get ahead of the other people, you know, to be the best schedule follower. That's another way for yourself to surface. Some people want to, like, raise their goshill halfway up to their neck. Other people want to, like, get up just in the perfect place and be the best bower on their tunnel. LAUGHTER These are both ways to surface yourself.

[60:18]

The more you see yourself, the more you see yourself, the more clearly you see yourself, the closer you're getting to realize the forgetting of the self. To which extent is it necessary to nourish this selfishness? You don't have to nourish it, it's strong enough. Some people have such, have, you know what you call it, fragmented senses of self, and in that case, they're still trying to be selfish, but they're having trouble getting a grip because their self is kind of like misformed or something. So in some cases people need work to clarify their self so that they can be more clear, you know, about what they're up to. And so sometimes psychotherapy in that way helps for a person to become more clear about what is my self that I'm holding onto and what isn't.

[61:20]

But once you have that clinging, that's usually strong enough, It's just a question of help, doing some therapy so she can be more clear about where you are clinging. Everybody's clinging, it's just that some people have such a messy ego that they can't tell where they're holding on to. So it's harder to see it. It's nice to have a nice round one with no holes in it and no other people inside of it and stuff. Some people actually have what's it called? It's called intruded selves in their self, like their parents or something. It's really complicated for them to know where they're holding, you know, and stuff like that, because they're holding themselves where they're trying to exclude their parents. It's real messy, so it's nice to have a nice simple one, but some people don't, so they need therapy to simplify the clinging situation. So studying that self, if you really study it and study that self and the self-cleaning, you forget it. And giving and so on are ways, giving yourself to the schedule, giving yourself to the forms are ways to train in selflessness through surfacing your selfishness.

[62:32]

Well, I appreciate there's lots of questions and stuff, but it's getting kind of late. Right? Don't these things go usually until about 8.30? Yeah. So I appreciate your enthusiasm, and we'll have other opportunities. And I would like to ask if you could help set up the room again afterwards by taking the chairs out and putting the tables back. That would be nice to help the guest program. I kind of find it interesting that the board for the San Francisco Symphony is going to come here tomorrow. So it's nice that the symphony is having their meetings here. Even if they don't give us any free tickets.

[63:16]

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