I'm studying this story, this teaching from Nantron saying that Buddhas, other three times, don't know it is. Cows and cats know it is. and the Zen master named Tien Tung wrote a verse about this saying limping and palsied tattered and disheveled what's that got to do with this story A hundred can't be taken.

[01:16]

One isn't worth it. What's it got to do with this story? Different kinds. How do you mean different kinds? Oh, they're different kinds? Uh-huh. What different kinds got to do with the story? Well, definitely that you practice with different kinds. What's it got to do with the Buddhas don't know it is, cows and cats know it is? Buddhas don't know it is cats. Because cats and cows have probably practiced it different times. Uh-huh. Maybe. Yeah. Would anyone care to say how this story is functioning in their life?

[02:30]

Makes me wonder what it's all about. Makes you wonder what your life's all about? I've been thinking considerably about the matter of taking care of the water buffalo. Mm-hmm. How do you relate that to cows and how it is? Oh, I don't know. I don't see any particular connection, but taking care of the water buffalo seems relevant to you? Yeah, it's like taking care of the water buffalo I get. Cows and cats know what it is. I haven't got that. Absolutely.

[03:31]

Melania? Lifting and palsy and Karen and Michelle tells me that I might make it to the And then the other piece is that I feel completely lost. Wouldn't it be great to be able to eat everywhere?

[04:35]

No. I think we can. I think the opportunities are there all the time to eat everywhere. But he became able to eat everywhere because he wasn't allowed to eat everywhere. No, he wasn't allowed to eat anywhere. He wasn't allowed to eat where he wanted to eat. He could eat some places, but not wherever he wanted to, he couldn't. Does that mean we have to give up eating where we want to eat so we can eat everywhere? And what's that got to do with Buddhas of the three times not knowing it is? Non-discrimination.

[05:41]

And what's non-discrimination got to do with not eating where we want to eat? It's okay. It's okay. Not being prisoner of impulses. Not being prisoner of your own impulses. Not having preferences. Pardon? Not having preferences. Not having preferences. Being free of preferences. I'm always drawn to the added saying, the Brutus of the Three Times don't know it is just because they know it is. Cats and cows do know what it is just because they don't know what it is. Does that let you off the hook?

[06:49]

No. But you don't want to be off the hook. I'm thinking about videos of cats, cows, relatives seeing birds or animals, and thinking about how lucky they are. They don't have the concerns. I don't think they do. They have the concerns, so many concerns and thoughts as we have, and they just eat and fly around and smell things and see things. If not, could be knowing it is. Are you saying how lucky they are? They are lucky.

[07:54]

Are you lucky too? Yes, I think seeing that inspires a possibility in me or encourages me to feel like it's possible for me to be like that too. It's possible for you to be like a bird? How about you being like a person? And the birds being like birds. if that's possible. I guess that takes a lot of learning. It takes some learning because you're a learning kind of a guy? Yeah, sometimes. So you're not suggesting you want to get off being human so you can be like a bird?

[08:58]

Sometimes I do want to be a bird. You can get off being such a complicated person? What's that? Get off being so complicated like you are with all your thinking apparatus? Uh-huh. That's part of being a human, right? That you want to get off being a human bird simply? I don't know if birds want to get off being birds, but people want to get off being people. I don't necessarily just want to get off being... I just want to get off being human or see a bird. But look at a bird and see, like, how can I be like a human and like... You want to be... And like what I like in a bird. You want to be like what you like in a bird. Do you ever want to be what you don't like in a bird? I want to be what I don't like in a bird. What don't I like in a bird? Have you ever seen birds tearing up worms? Is that the part of birds you don't like so much?

[10:01]

For example? Just guessing. Now that I think about it, that I don't want to be liked? Not necessarily, because... Like birds, when they attack each other to steal food from each other? Is that kind of the part of being a bird that you're not so interested in? But you don't like that part of the birds, do you, particularly? No, I don't. I mean, I don't like it, but I don't necessarily have an aversion towards it either. But do you have an aversion towards it? Is there anything about birds? You said you didn't like some things about birds. What are the things you don't like? Just tell us. I said that there's things I don't like about birds. Didn't he? You introduced that. That was your fun set. No, no. He said I liked the things I like about it.

[11:04]

Oh, he said you said the things I like about being a bird. But there's no things you don't like about birds? Well, I don't want to be something else other than who I am or myself. You don't? I like the bird. And you don't want to be like a bird? Unless it happens to be how you are? No, I want to be like the bird. I see the qualities that I like in the bird, and I want to... Be like those qualities? I... What do you mean then? Being more free from care. You want to be free of cares?

[12:05]

You want to be carefree? That the word carefree means, you know, it's like not caring, but be carefree, but be able to care when necessary. You want to be able to care when necessary and also be free of your cares when necessary? Would you like to be free of your cares all the time? When necessary? I want to be free of my cares all the time, but I don't want to... Not care? Not care, yeah. You want to be free of your cares while you care? That would be nice, yeah. I mean, well, it's hard to imagine. Yeah, that would be nice. It's not so hard to imagine. But... Free my cares while I care. Does that sound good?

[13:14]

Sounds good. Sounds difficult to be free of your cares while in the midst of caring. Well, it seems like you're free of your cares and you're not really caring. Well, maybe that could be the case, that you think being free of cares is that you don't care. But that wouldn't be free of cares, I don't think. That would be just that you don't care. And then as soon as you start caring again, you might or might not be able to be free when you started to care again. But a little while ago, you thought it might be... good to be able to be free right in the middle of caring be free of cares but you just thought it might be difficult hard even hard to imagine yeah it wasn't was it hard

[14:33]

Didn't look like it was hard. Was it hard? No, it's inspiring. So what's it got to do with being palsy and limping? It's the same thing, isn't it? Being caring and being palsied and limping, kind of the same thing. I mean, caring and being palsied are kind of the same thing. Not why. There's not why. They're just the same thing. Caring is kind of a limping, isn't it?

[15:53]

Don't you see the limping in caring? Do you need to be attached to the caring? No. No. if you're attached to the caring, it's like if you're attached to the limping, attached to the palsied, or attached to the not-palsied, then that's being attached. And that seems to be not freedom, right? So people who are palsied or limping or people who are not palsied and not limping can easily be attached to those states. Like, if you're limping there might be some attachment there in the limping. Can you imagine? If you were limping, you might be attached to the limping. You don't have to like something to be attached to it.

[17:01]

Yes? I was just wondering whether Rosie was anywhere else. She didn't have a word. She might have been shoved outside. She's not coming. Rosie? Rosie. I don't know. I don't know. Is there much more? Around your cellar. Does anybody see the dog, Rosie? She came in. She came in. I don't think so. She did come in. She was there. She was there. She was there. She was trotting and wagging. Isn't that clear about being attached to limping? A person might be attached to limping. A person might not be attached to limping. Huh? No? You don't understand that? No, what's... Sarah?

[18:13]

Well, I can understand being attached to living for any other sort of what we might consider negative, you know, being disheveled or... I can understand... You can understand that? Yeah? I just don't quite understand its relevance to the verse. I don't understand the verse. Oh, well, is the verse about being attached to being palsied and disheveled, or is the verse about not being attached to being limping and disheveled? What was the rest of the verse? The rest of it is tattered and disheveled. and then a hundred can't be taken, one isn't worth it. And there's a dog. It has to be about being awake no matter what the circumstance.

[19:15]

It seems to me it has a lot to do with just accepting yourself as you are, no matter what, accepting yourself. What has to do with accepting yourself no matter what you are? I mean, no matter whatever state you happen to be in, that acceptance is food. Yeah. So you wouldn't be attached to being palsied and disheveled? I don't know about attachment. You don't know about attachment. So when attached... So we could be attached to being palsied or not. But if we're palsied and we accept being palsied with no attachment to being palsied, then we could be free.

[20:28]

Right? And maybe that's what the case is about, since it's written by a Zen master, and these cases are usually celebrating something. Or not celebrating something. But usually celebrating something. Usually these are praise. Usually he's praising. Is he praising this time? I think so. It says he's praising. I'll be darned. But generally, generally he's praising. So he's not praising being palsied, because palsied isn't necessarily better than non-palsied, but it must be that he's praising being free of attachment to being palsied. Most people who are palsied In the surveys I've done, most people who are palsied are attached to being palsied.

[21:34]

Most tattered people are attached to being tattered. And most people who are untattered are attached to being untattered. That's the general... What usually I find is people are attached to whatever they are. Even though they often don't like what they are, the reason why they don't like what they are is because they're attached to it. Usually. Except some people don't like what they are and they're not attached to what they are. They just don't like what they are. And they're free of what they are, plus they're free of not liking what they are. It's just kind of a hobby that some unattached people have of not liking what they are. This story with union not understanding so many times, I mean, is this, it's hard for me to accept that, I mean, it seems like a palsy limping along and not getting it and not getting it.

[22:39]

And yet, you know, the question comes up, did he really get it? Or maybe the other person didn't get it. And who gets it, the beetrooters and beetroots or the cows and the cats? And so what this brings up for me is my supposition of what getting it looks like, that getting it isn't limping or palsied. That knowing it is, or knowing it isn't, is at least clear. And Yunyun seems, it's just difficult to find out where he does and how he does realize the story. The last part of what you said was something like, it's difficult to realize, to see where and how he realizes. Yes. It's difficult. She's having a difficult seeing where and how he realizes, because she's looking for some way to see where and how he realizes, and she can't see the way, unless maybe the way you realize it is by not getting it.

[23:52]

Maybe that's the way. But I'm not saying she's coming to that conclusion, but she might. She might come to that conclusion, but the rest of you probably won't, right? Because you know that there's no way, that there's no way you realize. You know that, right? Otherwise, Otherwise, it wouldn't be realization if there was a way to realize, would there? Would it be? No. No. So this is a case where Susan's having a hard time seeing where and how he realized, but it says in the story that you know, blah, blah, blah, blah, but still he was the successor of Yasha, who was another limping guy who says he's limping.

[24:58]

He says he was limping, but, you know, you may not think that he was that limping. You might not think what he was doing was limping, but he says, I'm limping. Is this that one continuous mistake sort of thing? No, it's not. For me, this is willing to be, this is very personal, but willing to be seen as limping. It's willing to be seen as limping. What is willing to be seen as limping? Feeling exposed in my not knowing. Feeling exposed and you're not knowing is similar to being exposed to being seen in some way. So you can be exposed to being seen as limping or not knowing. The story ties that together. Uh-huh. And maybe, what's his name?

[26:09]

Yun Yan. Do you think he was willing to be exposed as not knowing? Again and again. Does it look like he was willing to be exposed as a student who's kind of like not getting it? Megan? What I was going to say, actually, is that it seems like... It seems like in the beginning when they're talking about Buddhas and cats and cows, it seems that they're pointing out that people have sort of an aspiration to be Buddhas, to be like Buddhas. And what they're really pointing to is that you should want or not want, or that you should be in a position where those questions don't even arise and those aspirations are even there. And... And you don't even, you're not concerned about whether or not you're fooled, but that you are just really working within the discipline of the practice and trying hard to just practice deeply.

[27:18]

But the rest of it doesn't really matter. What is the discipline of the practice? Well, all things, I think, in the practice, trying to recognize... what your aspirations are and trying to, to really, I think in this case, to really drop the white body in mud and free yourself of those sort of, I don't even know the right word, contradictions or aspirations and just, and just see the world for what it is. So, the practice is dropping away body and mind? Pardon? Well, just a second. I wanted to ask her before you say it.

[28:20]

It's okay. I'll be right back to you. Are you saying the discipline, the practice, is dropping body and mind? I think the practice is the discipline. And is the practice that's the discipline and the discipline is the practice, is that dropping body and mind? Is that the practice? Yeah. And is the practice body and mind dropping away? Is that the practice? Not necessarily. What else might the practice be besides that? Whatever you are before body and mind dropped away. Or you think the practice is the body-mind not dropping away? Is that what you're thinking, maybe the practice first? I think it's kind of both. I mean, I think it's not like you can have one and then have the other and then it stays there, but that you would fluctuate between the two. The two are, one is the body-mind dropping away and the other is the body-mind not dropping away?

[29:24]

Yeah. And you think that the practice is both of those, or one of those, or…? Well, I think that practicing is the fluctuation between them. The practice is the fluctuating between the two? The pan thinks so, too? Or you just said? OK. OK. So the fluctuating between the two is, one is the body and mind dropping away, and the other one is body and mind not dropping away. And what is the body and mind not dropping away? I think where I am now, whatever I'm doing, there is... So, and what are you? Are you like a body-mind? Yeah. Yeah. So there's the body-mind dropping away and then there's the body-mind. Body-mind not dropping away, it's just a body-mind, right? Not talking about it dropping away. It's just a body-mind.

[30:24]

Now, is the practice... the fluctuation between body-mind not dropping away, but you're saying the practice is the fluctuation between body-mind not dropping away and body-mind dropping away. Right? And I would suggest that you consider that this isn't really a fluctuation, but that this is just body-mind, and this is body-mind dropping away. And the body-mind is right here. really, with the body and mind dropping away. That there's no dropping away of body and mind without body and mind. So what you call body and mind not dropping away is included in body and mind dropping away, or dropping away of body and mind. But in terms of the way that we see it, when we are in the state of body and mind. When you're in the state of body and mind, yes, and not in body and mind dropping away, then I would say that that's a case of what we call not practicing. That's just body and mind leaving out the dropping away of body and mind.

[31:32]

The body and mind, there's an ignorance of body and mind dropping away. Whenever there's body and mind dropping away, there is body and mind. There's no body and mind dropping away without body and mind. Body and mind dropping away doesn't mean there's no body and mind. That's what I would say. Okay? So you got a Megan body and mind and there's no dropping away without that. However, there's also no body and mind without the dropping away of body and mind. If you think there's not dropping away of this body and mind, then you think well, then what you think is the definition of not practicing. And you may not think, I'm not practicing, but you might think that. Or another way is, if I think that my body and mind is not dropping away, then I say to myself, I think I'm not practicing. By definition, I think I'm not practicing when I think my body and mind is not dropping away.

[32:36]

Then I would say, Reb thinks he's not practicing. If I think my body and mind is dropping away, that is just what? What? What? Delusion? Well, but what kind of delusion? It's body and mind. To think that your body and mind is dropping away is body and mind. Right? That make sense? To think that your body and mind is dropping away is body and mind. To think that your body and mind is not dropping away is body and mind. So if you think your body-mind's not dropping away, okay, then you think you're not practicing. But you are practicing, and the way you're practicing is that body and mind which thinks it's not dropping away is dropping away. That's the practice. You can call it a fluctuation if you want to, but really it's just that you think you're not practicing, and that thought, that person, that complex of stuff that comes up with, I'm not practicing, is actually dropping away.

[33:41]

That's the practice. To think that you are is also another body-mind, and that dropping away of that is the practice. So the practice is actually always going on. I disagree with the statement that body-mind dropping away is a result of practice. I would say that the body-mind dropping away is the practice. Now, you might also think that the body-mind dropped off, or the dropped-off body and mind, the condition of the body-mind being dropped off, or the body-mind which is in that state of being dropped off, you might think that that was the result of the practice of body-mind dropping away. You might think that, right? But I don't think so. There's always actually a dropping away of body-mind and there's always the dropped off body and mind.

[34:47]

But there's a difference between the body-mind dropping away and the dropped-off body-mind. Body-mind dropping away is something that is the way body-minds are. They're dropping off. The dropped-off body-mind is the way that body-minds aren't. And that doesn't happen. One happens, the other one doesn't. One is happening, the other doesn't happen. Isn't the dropped-off body and mind just memory or thought? Pardon? Isn't the dropped-off body and mind, if one thinks of it as such, just memory and thought? Is the dropped-off body and mind memory and thought? Yeah. No, memory and thought is body and mind. Perfectly good, body and mind, memory and thought. Anyway, that's what I think. And the dropping off of what I think is what I think is the practice.

[35:54]

So back to the situation of Susan being vulnerable to be seen by herself or others as not knowing or as limping. That's a body-mind situation which she experienced, that she's experiencing. And Yun Yan is somebody who seems to know himself as not knowing, and probably he also can sense that other people think he doesn't know, too. But yet he is a successor to the practice of body-mind dropping away. He's a successor in that practice. In other words, he's an embodiment of that practice tradition. And he had a body and mind which didn't know certain things, didn't get certain things, and that body-mind also kept manifesting questions of Dharma siblings and Dharma parents.

[37:13]

He kept asking questions all over the place in the midst of not knowing he was that kind of body-mind that he was. But not all people are like him. He was that way, but not everybody is like that. Not all the stories are about people like him. As a matter of fact, sometimes it looks like the successors are the ones who get it. So like Dawu, his Dharma brother, was more kind of like, he got it. And he looked like he got it, he talked like he got it, and his teacher said he did get it. And Yuen Yuen thought he got it. Although Yuen Yuen didn't get it, he kind of felt like Da Wu did. And he related to him as though he did. And Da Wu related to him as though he did. But Da Wu was a different kind of a successor. He was a successor too, but he was a different one. He had to accept looking like he knew and having people think he knew.

[38:16]

He wasn't as much of a kind of limping guy as Yuen Yuen was. And yet Yuen Yuen, limping along, could be the teacher to kind of a hotshot person like Deng Shun, his main successor. He could teach this guy who looked like he knew from early times. And Dung Shan never really looked, in very few of the stories that most people know about him, did he look like he didn't know. But actually, in some of the stories between him and Nguyen Nguyen, he looked like he didn't know. And Nguyen Nguyen, who didn't know, could teach him and show him that he didn't know. That arose because... The body and mind of the ones who don't know drops off all the time. So there's freedom from being limping, there's freedom from being real elegant and athletic, there's freedom from not knowing, there's freedom from body-mind, whatever it is.

[39:31]

This being proposed as a possibility and dropping off is the process of freedom from body and mind. Do you want to say something, Klaus? No, I thought it's just wonderful, this true freedom, what he just described. Yeah, it's really wonderful. So what's it got to do with the Buddha's not knowing? It is? Pardon? They know it is, but they don't know that they know that it is. They know that it is, but they don't know that they know it is. Reverend Cutchins? Just to remark that in the story Yun-Yen says about his interaction with Yashan, he didn't explain it to me. And that's exactly what Dongshan said in praise of Yun-Yen. He didn't explain it to me. Who said he didn't explain it in this story?

[40:40]

Yun Yan said of Yao Shan. Yao Shan didn't explain. For the interview with Yao Shan and said, I've come for this. And Yao Shan said, oh, my back is sore. Ketra didn't explain. And he said he didn't explain it. So I guess that's that then about this story is that it's kind of a flop story because it really isn't appropriate to explain it. And nobody seems to be able to get it without an explanation. But it would be kind of out of character for this lineage for anybody to explain it. Now, maybe somebody could come in. So I guess we should move on before anybody explains this story.

[41:40]

And so some of the people in this room are going on to the next story before they understand the story before they get it. But even though you may not get this story, you might be a successor to the lineage of not Nanchuan, not Zhaozhou, but Yunyan and so on, and the Yaoshan, Yunyan, Dengshan lineage. Maybe you could be a successor to that lineage if you're in this state of not getting a story, because it looks like you don't get it. Although I heard some pretty intelligent remarks. They just sounded like body-mind to me. smart body-mind, clever body-mind, in some cases maybe less clever than some of the other clever ones, but I just heard body-mind.

[42:47]

I didn't hear anybody understand the story. Did anybody hear anything, understand the story? Did anybody think they understood it? And if anybody did, bring the body-mind forward and we'll see. Oh, yes. It's no use talking about this. Let's go on to the next story. So the next story... I have a question. Yes? You have a question? About the story that Rebecca's not talking about. Yes? She's about knowing. Knowing? Yeah. You have a question about knowing? Yes. That's just the reason why the Buddhas don't know and the Captain Kow do know. What is that? What is that knowing? Knowing is one of the basic functions of the... What do you call it?

[43:49]

The body-mind. It comes with this capacity. The mind has the capacity to know. Chinese character... I can't write backwards for you, but it goes like this. I mean, know. And so one of the basic qualities of consciousness is to know. Or, you know, like, as in gnosis or cognition. It's just a basic impression of objects of awareness. Is it sort of like a bottle we try to put reality in? No. No. You don't have to do that. I mean, you don't have to put reality into a bottle. You can just have that this is the impression of what's happening. This is not saying this is what's happening. This is not saying that what's happening is this. It's more like this is the impression I have

[44:50]

This is the impression we have, or this is the impression of what's happening. This is not what's happening, this is my impression of what's happening. So, in a given moment of experience, there is basically an impression of what's happening, a cognition of what's happening. But you don't have to then say, and this is what's happening. You don't have to do that. You could do that, and mind has the ability to do that too, but that's not the basic cognition. And that character for know, I believe, is the same character that we have in the next story, where Jinshan says to Shushan, clearly knowing. He doesn't say clearly observing, as in the first case of this book. He says clearly knowing. In this case, it's not clearly knowing it is.

[45:53]

In this case, it's clearly knowing, and the Chinese is really cute, it's clearly knowing life, not life, nature, or birth. The character for birth and life is the same Chinese character. It means birth or life. So you can read life, not life nature. Clearly know life, not life nature. Which you could say clearly knowing the not life nature of life. Or life's not life nature. Okay? But you could also say clearly know birth's not birth nature. Or the unborn nature of birth nature. ...birth, clearly knowing the not-life nature of life. Okay?

[46:54]

Is that right? Can you get that kind of like thing there? Okay, clearly knowing it, why are we stayed by birth? Clearly knowing the unborn nature of birth, why are we stayed by birth? And stayed, that is a Chinese character for that, stayed by as a passive marker and as this character which means to be restrained or be detained or resist or a lot of these associations. Yes? The character you just referred to is... also has an archaic meaning of flow. Flow. Yeah. And in a different translation of this passage, actually, in plant records, they don't use this character. They use the character which has the same pronunciation, which means flow. Mm-hmm. And another translation of it is instead of wire, stayed, and by the way, the word stayed, does it say stayed?

[48:07]

The word stayed can be restrained, but also can be supportive. The English word stayed can mean restrained or held, like a stay on a ship is a binding thing, but also can mean to support or uphold. So there's a little nuance, a little vibration there around that you're being restrained, that life restrains us, but also life supports us. Using the word stayed here is an interesting word to choose because it has both a supportive quality and restraining quality. And another translation is, instead of why are we stayed by life, another translation is why isn't one held back by life? Why isn't? Why isn't one held back by life? In other words, taking it on the supportive side.

[49:09]

But I think they're all worthwhile, though, in that. So anyway, seeing the unborn nature of birth, clearly knowing the unborn nature of birth, Is it that we are stayed, either supported or held back, by birth? Does that make sense? That there would be a question there? That if you could see the unborn nature of birth, then how would birth either hold you, restrain you or support you? How could you be supported by something unborn if you see it? Wouldn't that release you from being either held back or even supported? One might wonder about that.

[50:14]

Does that make sense? The question is something like this. or when you see the not-life nature of life, then how does the manifestation of this life, which is unborn, either restrain you, hold you back, or support you? It depends on how you are in it. It depends on how you are in it. Yes. So how would you be in it that it would restrain you if you understood that it's unborn nature. How would birth restrain you or support you if you understood clearly, if you knew clearly it's unborn nature? How would that be? Well, we're getting answers before the ancestors.

[51:15]

That's good. Yes? Did you want to tell us about that? So knowing or not knowing can't really change what is. So knowing... Knowing or not knowing can't really change what is? Yeah. Well, it doesn't change it, but what is depends on knowing and not knowing. So if there's knowing, what is arises with that knowing. The knowing doesn't... What? You asked me. Well, if there's no... What is includes the not knowing or knowing that's happening, right? Uh-huh. So the not knowing doesn't change what's happening. No. What's happening arises with the not knowing. So the knowing, so the brick holding back or supporting and the knowing are together too. Yes. Right. But still, you might think that... The question seems to be, how is it that, isn't it kind of funny or isn't it surprising that with clear knowing of the unborn nature of birth, that birth can function in a restraining, supportive or staying way?

[52:27]

Isn't that surprising in a way? Isn't it? It's not? What is surprising? Well, that's the same thing. Isn't it surprising that you can participate in something unborn? I mean, not only that you can, but that you can when you see that it's unborn. Now, if you don't think it's unborn, then you could be dreaming that you're participating in it. But when you actually see it's unborn, when you see that birth is unborn, then wouldn't that sort of pull the rug out from your... Wouldn't that sort of... No. No? No? Okay. Okay. So, yes? It reminds me of Bajong's Fox, about not being blind to cause and effect, not caught or not caught, but things go on. So, not being blind to cause and effect, still things can happen. You're not stepping on the roof on it, but at the same time you're not completely caught in it either.

[53:29]

Right. I agree that that's the same, but aren't you people surprised by that, that it's possible that you can see how things happen, and now you see how they happen, not be blind to them, but by seeing how they happen, see that they don't happen? That's what he's seeing here. He's seeing cause and effect, and he's seeing that these things that arise don't arise. Birth is unborn. So doesn't that Do you see something there that's a little bit, that's kind of surprising, that's something that doesn't, isn't, that has an unborn nature? Yes. Can support you? Yeah? After studying all these cases? Well, maybe he, this guy, the guy who's taught, the teacher who's talking to him, maybe hadn't studied all these cases, so he wasn't as sophisticated as you people, but can you imagine how back in the old days... You know, being one of the first people on the block to see the unborn nature of life, you might wonder, how can you be supported or held back by life then?

[54:35]

He's not really asking that question anyway. Is he kind of just kind of testing his... I don't know. I don't know. Liz? Liz? It makes me think of how the bodhisattva vow is to come back, and I think it's not a frivolous vow, but a bodhisattva is truly offering something to come back. They're not coming back in a way that they're completely aloof and have all power to not be caught. Right. Exactly. Or what I was thinking was, it makes me think of bodhisattvas who are totally devoted to the welfare of beings that aren't born. Their whole life is devotion to beings whose nature is unborn. But isn't that surprising? I mean, isn't that surprising that somebody would be devoted to somebody who isn't born by nature?

[55:41]

But they're not born themselves too, right? Right. That they would also take care of themselves while clearly seeing the unborn nature of yourself, of your own birth, that you would be held or supported by that birth. Isn't that surprising? Yes. Yeah, I think it's kind of surprising and it's kind of wonderful. Now, To think that if you don't see this, in other words, you see that birth really has the nature of birth, then it would probably make sense that it would restrain you or hold you or sustain you, right? That's what most people think. So they think, yeah, well, birth is real, and so I'm into birth. Life is real, so I'm into life. But when you see that life's basic nature is not life, It's different.

[56:43]

Wouldn't it be different? And wouldn't that be amazing that you would still be held by something where you can see that it can't hold you? Well, that's the beginning question, anyway. I see Vernon's hand. Yes, Vernon? Did you want to say something? Yeah. I just have the feeling, I like the way you've been stating that. Oh, good. I know, I get worried when he doesn't like what I'm doing. It makes me feel that understanding and knowing just Not even words that relate to that, they're just pointless. I mean, it's sort of outside the realm of knowing or understanding.

[57:46]

What's outside the realm of knowing? The way you've been saying that, about the unborn... I wish I could write it down, and I just... I can't regurgitate the words. who you've been asking us, isn't this surprising? And it just seems like a compassionate realization, but nothing to do. And I don't surprise that I can't understand it or that I can't know it, because I don't think I'm supposed to. I don't think the words... Yeah, I think you're right. You're not supposed to, but what if you did? This is about what... I don't think I can. So you think that, okay? Do you know that, by the way? Just because they do know it. This is a case where clearly knowing, you don't have to clearly know

[58:52]

You don't have to. You're not supposed to. I'm just saying, if you did clearly know this thing that all life, all life has the nature of unborn, then how would you be into this thing which you clearly see, you clearly know is unborn? This is like the first question. I think it's because the Bodhisattva, it seems to me the Bodhisattva has gone through, spent many, many lifetimes participating in the delusion that life is birth. And that when the Bodhisattva realizes that life is unborn, he or she has compassion for all those beings who still participate in the belief that life is birth. Let's see now.

[60:06]

OK, so unborn and I'm willing to be held back by that. Thank you. Yes, did you want to say something again, Reverend Cutchins? So now comes, now comes, I don't know what this is that's coming now. Is this an explanation? It might be, and if it is, somebody's in trouble. So Shushan says, bamboo shoots will eventually become bamboo. But if you use them now for bamboo rope, can you make them serve the purpose? So you know what that's about?

[61:12]

Is that clear? No? Okay, so bamboo shoots are edible. You can eat them right away, I believe. Isn't that correct? But you can't. They're soft, you know. You can just go, boop, and eat them. Hmm? What do you think? Leached? Yeah, but you can eat them right away. I mean, they don't have to get any bigger to eat. You can eat them in that form, okay? But they also can grow up and be big bamboo, and then you can cut that bamboo and eat that too, right? When it gets thicker, like sometimes, you know what I mean? When the bamboo gets to be bigger, you can also cut that and eat that.

[62:14]

I did that once. Do you know if you've eaten that bamboo that way? No? Well, it's like it looks like, you know, more like it has more like a slab, little slabs, little chunks. Nobody's had that kind of stuff, that kind of bamboo? What? You haven't? It's the stuff out of cans, right? No, it's a shoe. Well, it's in cans. Sometimes it's in cans. But it's often in Chinese restaurants. They have, you know... Anyway, so you can eat it. You can eat it when it's bigger. This is also talking about that you can also use the... You know the little sheaths that the bamboo comes in? Little sheaths? You can use them to make rope. Okay? They're not really... I mean, I don't know if anybody eating those, but I suppose you could, but... Is that clear? So, he's saying that bamboo shoots will eventually become bamboo, in other words, they'll eventually grow up

[63:25]

but you can eat them before they grow. You can eat them when they're young. And the sheaths around the bamboo can be used to make a rope. All right? Does that make sense? So he's talking about that the bamboo shoots will eventually grow to be bamboo, but if you use them now to make rope, Can you make them serve the purpose? The bamboo shoots need time to practice. Pardon? The bamboo shoots need to practice and grow up and become more difficult. You could say that. But could you use your practice, could you use the bamboo too early? Is that what he's talking about?

[64:31]

What's he trying to say here with this imagery? Yes? Well, the way I read this, if you realize the humble nature, well, put it this way. If you understand that everything is unborn, one could say, well, why give a damn? And why let things take their normal course? I follow the thing of the first part is, if you understood the unborn nature of birth, you might not give a damn. Right. Because I care about things that aren't born. Right. Why care about things that are insubstantial? Why be devoted to insubstantial things? But I didn't understand the thing about let things take their course. What did you mean by that? Well, this is sort of the logical consequence of that is that, hey, why care about it?

[65:32]

Just let things go however they go. That's right. And here we're talking about here is nurturing life, actually, bringing it to fruition. One possibility is nurturing this life, letting the bamboo realize its purpose, let it grow up. But what's this thing about making the rope? What's that about? Is the rope discipline? Is the rope discipline? That's interesting. Liz? Probably wouldn't work. It's a different thing. Bamboo fiber is different when it's big than when it's small. Just the shoots wouldn't make work. The sheep make rope, right. It's those kind of little, there's bamboo leaves, right? There's leaves, but there's sheaths. If you go up to my house, you'll see there's sheaths lying all over the place.

[66:34]

And they're like, you can make rope out of them, but you can also wrap things in them. They're Sometimes they're this long, or even longer, and some of them are that wide. And of course a bigger bamboo, I don't know how wide they get, but they're about this wide and you can wrap things in them. You can wrap things and cook them in it like they do with tamales and what do you call it? Sometimes banana leaves. You can use them that way to wrap things, cook things, but you can also make a rope out of them. But you can't use bamboo shoots for that purpose. And so what's this about? Yeah. The way I was reading it was, it seems that while you're immature, you're still a bamboo shoot, then you are stayed by life, but implying that once you mature, then you'll no longer be stayed by life.

[67:35]

Say it again. Being immature, a bamboo shoot, you are stayed by life, but implying that once you're fully mature, you will no longer be stayed by life. And how did that fall from what he said for you? It says, clearly knowing the unborn nature of life, why are we stayed by life? And I was reading the answer like, well, you're stayed by life now, but there's an immaturity. But in immaturity, we no longer will be stayed by life. Maybe that's what you're saying. I didn't get how... You're saying that Shishan's saying... What? What Shishan... Immaturity and immaturity. And in immaturity, I could be totally off, but in immaturity you are stayed by life, but eventually there will be a freedom where you won't be stayed by life.

[68:36]

In immaturity you're stayed by life. In immaturity you're not stayed by life. So, now, you think that's what he's saying, or is that what you're saying? No, no, no, that's what I think Shui Shan is saying, and I think that's why Jin Shan keeps going. You think Shui Shan is saying that if you're mature, you won't be saved by life, and if you're immature, you will. And, okay, so anyway, somehow you're coming up with that's what you think he's saying. So she thinks that Shushan's saying that if you're immature, you'll be stayed by life, but if you're mature, you won't. You don't agree with that, though, do you? No. Denise? Far off the mark, but I was just thinking it reminds me of the appropriate use in the appropriate situation. Yes.

[69:38]

That's what the bamboo thing's talking about? Yeah. Okay. Okay. Well, part of it comes from the previous story before when he talks about the girl saying that you don't have enough strength. So it seems like that's sort of what they're talking about there. It seems parallel. Ah, so you think something's parallel to something? But you don't have to talk about anything else, because you just said that you think that this monk's saying that if you're mature, you won't be stayed by life. Right? Right. Now, what is his name? Jin Chan's not saying that if you're mature, you will be stayed by life. Not quite saying that, but he's sort of saying that, isn't he? Because he's saying clearly seeing the unborn, you... how would you be stayed by life? He's not actually saying you will be stayed by life, but he's saying how would you be, and how would you be means maybe you would be.

[70:47]

Maybe you would be stayed by life even if you did see the insubstantiality of life. Maybe you'd still be stayed and supported, and maybe you'd be supported by life. Matter of fact, maybe, although he's not saying so, maybe those who do see clearly the insubstantiality of life, maybe they're nothing but life. Maybe they're nothing but life that they've seen the insubstantiality of. And maybe they're mature. Maybe. And maybe, as Meg's saying, Jinshan's saying, if you're mature, you won't be stayed by life. But what else could Jinshan be saying? We have Meg's possible interpretation of this imagery, and now we have cedars. Okay, so sort of what I'm hearing him saying is if you, like using them now, using them as bamboo shoots...

[71:58]

is somehow like knowing the unborn nature and using it as refusing to be stayed by birth, refusing to join in the whole thing. And he says, if you do that, then you can't make them serve the purpose. So if you refuse, if you're not stayed by birth, then it's like the whole thing is gone. It doesn't work. If you're not stayed by birth, the whole thing doesn't work. Something, yeah. I don't know what the right word is for something like that. Yes? Stuart? It seems that maybe Chosang's statement turns on something like purely knowing the unborn nature of life means converting seeing to knowing.

[73:15]

But as the case proceeds, Jinshan doesn't seem to agree with this understanding. But I think that's how I construe Jinshan's response. You mean that later on you'll be enlightened on your own? No, that's Jinshan's... response to Shushan. Oh, what did you say? That Shushan's response to Jinshan's question is something along, has, I think maybe, has something to do with converting seeing to knowing. One thing is kind of a living activity to see the import nature. of things, but knowing it reflects something.

[74:25]

Knowing is a kind of activity born of reflection, not of the activity. It isn't mediated, seen. It's a mediated activity, mediated by consciousness, mediated by thought. I take it that that's Shushan's response. If you take this... You feel he's trying to take knowledge and turn it into seeing? That's how you get stayed. You can get stayed. Someone who clearly knows the unborn nature is stayed by life because he sticks to knowing. Uh-huh. and therefore aborts his vision, or aborts the development of his vision.

[75:28]

But then Jinshan doesn't agree, seems in the next line, doesn't agree with this. Excuse me, I missed a line there. I missed Shushan in your story. Yes. You're saying Jinshan, are you saying Jinshan's saying that by clearly knowing you get stayed? Clearly knowing, yes, why are we stayed by life? How does it happen? Clearly knowing... And are you answering him by telling us that the way you're stayed is by knowing itself? Is that what you're saying? I think that's how I understand Shushan's response. Oh, Shushan said, but do you agree with that, do you think the answer is that when you clearly know the unborn nature of life, that you stayed by that because of the fact the way knowing goes? So you think sticking to knowing would be the way you would be stayed by life?

[76:36]

Yes. You think that? I do think that. And then you think, and does Shushan agree with you? I think I came to that by reading Shushan's response. That's how I understand Shushan. So you agree with Shushan. And I agree with Shushan. Okay. And I'm surprised by Jin Chan's reaction. Okay. I'm caught with Shushan. Now, is this a case of being stayed by life? With or without clearly knowing... the unborn nature of life? Well... Maybe I shouldn't be asking you. It could be that, but to me it feels more like willing to play the game. More like willing to play the game than being stayed by life? or, in this case, by willing to play the game of being state by life.

[77:46]

I'll go in there and get state. Okay. Thank you. You're welcome. Roberta? Well, I'm reminded of the story, I think it's Master Ma, when he was asked, why are you fanning yourself? You know, the nature of one is everywhere. It was a student of his. A student asked, why fan yourself? Magoo. Magoo? Master Ma Gu, who was a disciple of Master Ma. Oh, coincidence. Anyway, then he asked, why are you fanning yourself? And Master Ma, what did he say? Well, you don't understand the nature of what... He said why... The disciple said, the wind is pervading you, why fan yourself? And he kept fanning himself, right? Right. I don't know. So I think the response was, you don't know the nature of the wind prevailing everywhere. If you don't understand why I'm fanning myself, is that a proper paraphrase for that?

[78:52]

Well, let's just do it. He says, the nature of wind is permanent and it reaches everywhere. So how come you're fanning yourself if the wind reaches everywhere? You've got built-in air conditioning, right? Right, right. So why are you fanning yourself since the wind will get there anyway? He said, you understand the nature of wind being permanent, but you don't understand the meaning of it reaching everywhere. He says, what's the meaning of it reaching everywhere? This is the meaning of reaching everywhere. See? There's the meaning of it reaching everywhere. Little puppet fan. Puppet fan. I'm working for the wind here. The wind has taken over my arm. Because it reaches everywhere. So what I'm likening it to is saying if life is all unborn, why do anything? I think the answer implies that there's still a proper progression within the near time that has to be honored.

[79:57]

Saying you have to graduate high school before you go to college kind of thing is what I see this response as. And then, I mean, I'm not, I don't know all of this, but I'm also interested in, Jinshan says, later on, you'll be enlightened on your own, so there's something else going on here about linear time, later on. That phrase isn't used a lot in koans, it should be right there, but he's saying, later on, something will happen. There's something here about linear time and non-linear time and how they, I don't know what, how they dance together or something. Yeah. Yeah, that's what I think. I keep thinking of the unborn. The way you say this, it's almost like you don't have to think linearly about birth and death if you're thinking of the unborn.

[80:58]

You don't have to think linearly about birth and death if you clearly know the unborn nature of whatever. You don't have to think linearly about it. Right. You don't have to think non-linearly about it either. Right. Okay. But this understanding about the bamboo shoots, like you said, it sounds almost as if there's, you know, there's growing up and there's development. You know, you can't make a robot of a bamboo shoot because you haven't gotten a chance to... We're old enough to be ready for that constant, you know, being there. And you're rushing across it, neck or any of it. But the unborn life almost feels right. It forces you to be here every moment without worrying about death, but just being here as it happens. I think that paying attention and being there for what's coming up is part, is one of the kind

[82:14]

Anyway, being there for what's coming up is part of this thing about clearly knowing the unborn nature of birth. You don't get to clearly know if you're not present. But now we're talking about being present and clearly knowing the unborn nature of birth. It seems like that element itself is being stayed by life, being present. Well, that's the basic situation that's being set up here to consider. So does anybody, I mean, I assume you all are up for clearly knowing the unborn nature of birth, right? Everybody's up for that, right? I mean, is everybody okay with that, that that's sort of like part of the deal here? I'm a little nervous.

[83:32]

A little nervous about? About what? What's I'm a little nervous got to do with you being up for clearly now in the unborn nature of birth? It's the way you feel, but does the way you feel have anything to do with clearly seeing the unborn nature of birth? Huh? No. Does anybody have anything that has something to do with that, other than that you'd like to commit yourself to realize clearly knowing the unborn nature of birth? Are you up for that? Huh? I mean, do you see that as something which is part of the course here? Pardon? So that's the basic situation.

[84:35]

Now, then we have some questions, if that is realized, that's what this case is about, right? And so I think we have some more to look into here about whether you agree or disagree with Shushan and what's Shushan's problem. Does he have a problem? What's his problem? But please, please, by all means, clearly know the unborn nature of Earth. Okay?

[85:31]

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