one of our ancestors saying that practicing Zen is shedding body and mind. And I may have mentioned that the term practicing Zen The original Chinese is a combination of the character for Zen and another character which means to practice. It means to meet. It means to reach. It means to penetrate. So I think all those meanings are relevant. to meet, practice, penetrate, reach.

[01:03]

Zen is dropping body and mind. And Zen is to save all beings from Zen is to heal the world of the wound of duality. So reaching that place is for the body-mind experiences to drop away, or it's the dropping away of the body-mind experiences. So that's what Dogen Zenji's teacher, Ru Jing, said according to Dogen Zenji. I have not found in the record of Ru Jing myself that he said that.

[02:15]

However, someone has invited me to study the record of Ru Jing. translate it into English, so maybe I'll run across it. Whether he said it or not, our great ancestor said he did and proceeded to emphasize Zen practice as this dropping off of body and mind. So I might further mention, which I think I did also on Sunday, that this dropping off of body and mind is carried on, is lived in the context of the dropped off body and mind. Dropping off body and mind lives in the context of the dropped off body and mind.

[03:19]

The Japanese is nice because it's reversed. Sanzen, practicing Zen, is Shinjin Datsuraku. And Shinjin Datsuraku lives and is carried on in Datsuraku Shinjin. The Datsyuraka Shinjin is a type of Shinjin. Shinjin means body-mind. It's a dropped-off body and mind. The dropped-off body and mind is the body-mind of guess who? Who is an acronym? The dropped-off body and mind is the body and mind of Buddha.

[04:25]

So the practice of Zen is carried on within the body and mind of Buddha. So everybody who's practicing Zen is surrounded by the dropped-off body and mind, is surrounded by the Buddha body. all the time. And everybody who's not practicing Zen is also surrounded by the Buddha body. So actually both practicing Zen and not practicing Zen are carried on in the context of this dropped-off body and mind. But people who aren't practicing Zen probably don't care about that, that the dropped-off body and mind is all around them. And people who are practicing Zen may not care about it either, but it's important that they know that because the practitioner doesn't do the practice of Zen. The practitioner is supported. The practitioner of dropping body and mind off or the practitioner of body and mind, shedding a body and mind, the person who gets to live the practice doesn't do it, but is supported by the fact that it's already happened, namely Buddha.

[05:48]

is supported by the Buddhas who have already realized this. And they don't do it either, but they've realized that they don't do it. And the ones who realize that you don't do it support those who might still be thinking that they would do it. Or those who have given up the idea that they do it and are just enjoying the drop-drop body and mind with the support of those who have realized the dropped-off body and mind. The meaning of Zen practice or practicing Zen is realized in this communion between the practitioner who is enjoying the body-mind dropping off which the practitioner doesn't do, but the practitioner is. So it's the communion between the practitioner who is living that life and those who have already realized that, the Buddhas.

[06:58]

And the Buddhas are never separate from those who are practicing or those who are not practicing, and vice versa. And that's probably enough for starters for this practice period. I gave two talks about that. Now that's enough, right, for starters? So maybe you have something you want. Any questions you have now would be a good time to ask them, because it's today. And if you don't have any questions, we can go on to some more interesting things. Yes? Is saying you're surrounded by dropped-off body, mind, and that is the same as the universe as it appears to us, that's the same thing? Is it the same as the universe that appears to us? No.

[08:05]

Well, I don't know how the universe appears to you, but most people don't see Buddhas all around them. But if you do see Buddhas all around you, like if you see the trees are Buddhas, and the sky is Buddhas, and the walls are Buddhas, and everybody's a Buddha, and you see how everybody's helping you, then if that's the way things appear to you, then that's what we mean by Buddhas all around, by dropped-off body and mind all around you. if you see everything has realized freedom and everything that happens is showing you freedom, if that's the way things appear to you, then the way the universe appears to you would be this dropped-off body and mind. I mean, it would appear to you that it's a dropped-off body and mind. But if it appears to you that it's not teaching you, then you're rejecting it. You're rejecting it. But I guess if you mean that the way things appear, just as they are, that their dropped-off quality is the Buddha's teaching you.

[09:06]

Is that what you mean? Or what did you mean? We see what's around us, and that is actually the dropped-off body and mind of the Buddha's. But we just see it as our reality. It's not exactly the dropped-off body and mind of the Buddha. It is our dropped-off body and mind. It is our true body. Our true body is a dropped-off body and mind. And, okay, the whole world is our dropped-off body and mind, like the floor is your dropped-off body and mind, right? You're not dropped-off body and mind as whatever, I don't know what you say it is, but whatever you think your body is, that's just your body and mind, right? When that drops off, then the floor is as much your body and mind as what you used to think your body and mind was. And the Buddhas are there, you know, giving you this message that the floor is your body and mind, really. Does that make sense?

[10:11]

It does to him. Does that to anybody else? Any other questions about this? Yes. Suehiko. Is that how you say your name? Yes, it is. Did you say your name Daniel? Right. So I'm just wondering how do we know, well I don't know, how do you know that the true, I guess, nature of reality is a dropped off body and mind and Let me put that out of the way. How do I know that what I'm seeing, me at the center of the universe, is kind of this antagonistic?

[11:15]

Stay where you were. I moved so you don't have to move. How do we know what? How do we know that that's not really how it is? And I'm kind of just sitting around trying to fool myself. the drop-off body and mind, and the other thing is not. I'm just wondering how we know which one is true and which one is false. Okay, so now what's your question? How do we know what? How do we know? Well, there's the worldview of the Buddha. The worldview of the Buddha is what? The drop-off body and mind and what? The world view of the Buddha is, let's say the Buddha has a world view, okay? We won't talk about it for a second. Do you have a world view? Yeah, I think so. So what's your world view? Well, that you're the focal point of the universe.

[12:18]

Okay, you're the focal point of the universe and anything else? Kind of I'm separate, you know. Uh-huh. Basically, what I think to be deluded, what is called often deluded. Yeah, I often call that deluded. That second part about you feel separate from other people. You think your worldview is that you're separate from other people. Is that right? Is that what you said? At times, yeah. Pardon? I think that is true at times. At times you feel like you're separate from other people. Other times I do feel as though I'm connected. and other times you feel like you're connected. But when you feel like you're connected, do you feel like you're connected to people that are separate from you? You just feel connected, no separation, sometimes? Okay. So part of your worldview is that you feel like you're separate, or you seem to see people, think people are out there separate from you?

[13:22]

Yeah, that's very common. And... and that is an instinctive delusion of human beings. The idea that you're the focal point of the universe is not so deluded, actually. You actually are the focal point of the universe. But so is everybody else. That's not an illusion, actually, I don't think. I think that's got a lot... I think that's... If you really thought that, then you probably wouldn't feel like you're separate from things. Because everything's focused on you, you know? I mean, everything is just, you know, there's you, which is the focus of everything, so everything is like just there to focus on you. And that's really kind of true for everybody. Actually, my question wasn't really about the world view per se, but I was just wondering how we know which one is the right way. It's not actually... The world view that you said that you have sometimes...

[14:28]

and the worldview of the Buddha, which is the Buddha does not actually hold to the view that objects of awareness are out there. The Buddha can see things and understand, but doesn't actually even think that they're out there. What's the matter? Nothing. Nothing okay? But you said which one is true. You asked which one is true. Is the Buddha's view true or is ordinary human point of view true? How do you know which one is true? Well, when I answer this question, you're going to also say, well, how do you know what I said was true? But anyway, what I'm saying is that neither one are actually true. It's just that one is delusion and the other is enlightenment.

[15:36]

But enlightenment doesn't look at the truth any more than delusion looks at the truth. They're just views. Just that one is enlightenment and one is delusion. One is suffering and the other is release from suffering. If we would switch from the view that we're separate to see that everything in the universe is not out there, everything that, including us, is not out there, that view is a relief from the previous view. The previous view is anxiety. Primarily, it's primary anxiety view. It's normal human anxious view. The other view is a relief from the previous view. If you actually switch to the other view, you're relieved of the suffering of anxiety. But this view is not really true. It's just a relief from the previous one.

[16:39]

And then we need to also become not attached to that view and be released from that view. So practice is, first of all, to drop the body and mind which sees us as separate, and even the body-mind which sees us as connected, And even the body-mind, which comes up with the idea that with the focal point of the universe, whatever body-mind concoction there is, practice is that dropping away of that and the release of that. And it releases us from all stories that we have that the body-mind has concocted or that has all stories that have arisen out of our body-mind, at that moment anyway, dropping or released. And then that release, we realize, Buddha, because Buddha is basically not the new view. There is a new view, but it's not that view. It's the release from the old. It's the non-attachment to the views. So it isn't so much that Buddhists have this new view that they hold on to, but rather that Buddhists see the old view for what it is, namely a view, and they see it drop away.

[17:49]

And then they may get a new view, which is, well, if the old view of, you know, that things aren't other things, you know, everybody isn't me, if the sky isn't me and the mountains aren't me and the frogs aren't me and the people aren't me, if that view is suffering, when that view drops away, then I'm relieved of suffering. Now, can a new view come? Yes. Yes. But it's not the new view that's the Buddha's view. It's that whatever view comes, the Buddha's happy with. So it's not like the Buddha gets a new view like, oh, everybody's me. It's more like the Buddha gets some view, like gets a face or a cloud or a wall, comes to the Buddha, and the Buddha is relieved of suffering on that view.

[18:52]

So then the Buddha realizes, oh, everything that happens gives me life. So the Buddha can conclude that everything is our life, is my life, is life. So then you can make that into a philosophy. But before it's made into a philosophy, the Buddha's already liberated and being enlightened by whatever happens after release from thinking that this body-mind thing is the thing we should be working with. Now, if you would make that into a philosophy, like whatever happens now, whatever comes gives me life and realizes me, that's fine. That's another body-mind thing you do with your liberation, and then that drops away. And then you can go back, for example, to the previous story, like we're separate if you want to. But you've just recently dropped that view, been released from that view, so when it comes back, you're pretty much ready to have to drop away again. And then when it drops away, the next thing that happens is your freedom. I mean, is the...

[19:54]

is the occasion for your freedom. Like, you know, we have like pebbles hitting bamboo. That's like, this is my freedom, pebbles hitting bamboo. Peach blossoms open. You know, garbage cans are opened. Compost is touched. People smile. Whatever happens realizes you. That's the way, that's enlightenment. But then, that drops away too. Whatever, like the bamboo getting hit by the thing, that body-mind experience drops away too. So then you're released from that. This time you're released from the enlightenment. So you could go back to your deluded view if you wanted to. That could come back. That would be fine. That would enlighten you too. So Buddhas would be enlightened by delusions. This is what they're enlightened about. Does that make sense? So to know which one's true, it's not like one's true and the other one's not true.

[21:00]

It's liberating that for whatever happens, it's not so much that it's true, but whatever happens wakes you up. Whatever happens is the current opportunity for body and mind to drop off. which is always the case. Even before body and mind drop off, if you're holding onto your body and mind, this thing you're holding onto, this is your opportunity to practice Zen. Namely, can you see that what you're holding onto is actually dropping off? And it is possible. Even while you're holding on real tight to your experience, the very fact that you're holding onto it is exactly the reason why it's actually falling away. It's already there. If you just would not move, then it would be realized. And you're always not moving. Every moment you're not moving. If you would accept that, you would wake up. Any other questions about this?

[22:08]

Is that in practice? Mary Lee? Kind of a beginner's level question. Oh, OK. Yeah, well, thank you. I wonder where you sit. I wonder where you sit. I do, too. What is the connection between fitting hour after hour after hour after hour in something like Tanvario or Sashin And then dropping off of body and mind, is it that hour after hour after hour just hurts so much and hurts so much and hurts so much that eventually you give up? And somehow you give up and the release just happens? Is that what the technique is about? What is the relationship between sitting many hours in meditation, in the meditation hall, and what?

[23:16]

And dropping body and mind? Yeah. Why are we doing it, essentially? Are we putting ourselves in the ideal position for this to happen? Well, thanks for that last little bit there. We are putting ourselves into this ritual, this ceremony, of sitting in this formal posture with others who are sitting in the formal posture at designated times and so on and so forth with these rituals and monastic forms. We're participating with these in order to realize that these are not the ideal situations for realizing dropping body-mind. So we should all just go home and sit down in front of the TV set.

[24:25]

I mean... Somehow I didn't... My mind didn't jump there, but, you know. We do have a TV, I believe. Does it work? Does that TV work? It does? Does it have reception? No. We have TV, but no reception. But you can still go watch it. Right here in the monastery, you can watch TV. It is possible to realize living in... Do you live in Palo Alto sometimes? Is that where you live? Yeah. It's possible to live in Mountain View and sit in a room or an apartment and look at a TV and while looking at the TV to realize the dropping off of body and mind. It is possible. Definitely.

[25:26]

you know, sweeping the ground in your apartment and a little piece of pebble hits the refrigerator, it's possible to realize the dropping off of that body-mind experience of hearing the pebble hit the refrigerator. It's possible to realize that. Whether you realize it or not, body-mind is dropping off there right in your apartment. Okay? And it's sponsored by and in cooperation with the body-mind that's already dropped off. That's already what's really going on. So we have these rituals because the rituals help us understand that being in your apartment in Mountain View is a perfectly good opportunity to realize the way. That's what this is set up for. Maybe not everybody that participates in this program enters into this realization right away.

[26:29]

But that's what the whole setup is for. Because when you're watching TV or sweeping the ground in Mountain View, you don't necessarily think. You might, but you don't necessarily think. How is this body and mind dropping away? But you could, but you don't necessarily. Whereas here, you might think about it. And the more you think about it, et cetera, et cetera, the more you realize that you could be thinking that same question without being here. You could think, you know, what is it about this situation, wherever you are? But somehow being here, people often think, well, what is it about this situation? How come we're doing this? But when you're watching TV, you don't say, why am I watching TV? What's watching TV got to do with dropping body and mind? People don't very often say that. But they could. There's no problem if they do, but they don't very often.

[27:33]

Like right now, you know, I don't know how many people are watching TV, but how many of them are saying, what's this got to do with body and mind dropping off? Okay? It's got nothing to do with it. Actually, there's no situation that is obstructing or facilitating the dropping off of body and mind. All situations are equally dropping off. It's just that when you enter a formal practice period, you wonder, what's this got to do with that? And because you wonder what it's got to do with that, you see it's got nothing to do with it. But if you don't wonder, it's fairly unlikely that you're ever going to see that it's got nothing to do with it. So then you're going to think, well, I probably... Then if you're in Mountain View, you can probably think, well, probably if I went to Zen Center, I would practice Zen. You occasionally think that. But when you're actually in Zen Center, you say, what's it got to do with practicing Zen being in Zen Center? And it's got nothing to do with practicing Zen.

[28:38]

It is practicing Zen, actually. But that's not because you're at Zen Center. It's because what's happening is body-mind dropped off. But it's the same in Mountain View, whether you're at the Zen Center in Mountain View or not. So most people don't understand unless they enter into a monastic training situation. Most people don't realize it, even though the monastic situation isn't the ideal place to realize it still. I mean, the monastic situation is where you realize that the situation is not ideal. But in fact, most people don't realize that it's not ideal anywhere but in the monastic situation. People who may be living in mountain views probably think, well, being in a monastery is not ideal to realize the way.

[29:39]

And they're right. But do they realize that where they are isn't ideal either? And without being in the ideal situation, every situation is the place it's going to happen. There's no ideal situation except this one. This is the only one that's going to happen. If you want to call this situation, wherever you are in the universe, ideal, okay. But that's not what we mean by ideal. We think the situation is going to be the reason why the practice happens. The reason why the practice happens is because the practice is happening. And we would like to be able to do something to control the situation so that the practice would happen. Well, that's the body-mind that we want to, pardon me, that dropping off, that approach of getting some kind of guarantee about this thing going to work, that approach is a normal body-mind thing.

[30:45]

Me separate from the practice, how can I get it to work? How can I get enlightenment to happen to me or at least to my neighbor? I'm not selfish. Yes? What's the alternative to that? Alternative to what? To getting the practice to work for me. What's the other way? The other way from getting the practice to work for me? Yeah. Well, one other way is the practice is working for me. That's another way. Including, but it's not exactly other, including how can I get the practice to work for me, that situation, that body-mind situation, that body-mind situation is working for me. But I have to realize non-attachment to it. Otherwise, I'm actually going to try to make things work for me. And I'm going to lose track of the fact of non-attachment to that situation, which

[31:49]

I couldn't, you know, you can't attach to it anyway. It's a delusion that you can attach to something that the whole universe gave you and takes away the next second. But we, even though we know it's silly because we're Buddhists, right, we, deep down, we go ahead and pretend like it's possible to hold on to something that just happens for a moment that we didn't make happen. So that makes sense, right? But then we have to say, now, how can I make that happen again, even though last time I didn't? Many people have meditation experiences. They just go into Zendo. They sit down, you know, after practicing for 10 minutes or two weeks or 40 years. They go and sit in the Zendo and boom, they have this wonderful release, which they didn't make happen. And they say, now how can I make it happen again? And they do that for years. They try to make something that they didn't make happen, happen. They know it's crazy, but they can't resist because they would like it to happen so much. Normal human reaction to happiness. Get a hold of it.

[32:52]

You know? Make it happen again. Even though you know you didn't make it happen, it was a gift. So you say what, do you say an alternative, first of all? Well, yeah. So there isn't an alternative. You work with what's happening. What's happening is actually dropping away. But is there a way to get that gift? Well, the Eno just says you have to be there. Just like right now, you have to be there to get the joke of what you just said.

[33:57]

But being there is not something you can do. You can't do being here. You can come here, sit here, but as soon as you sit here, being here is not something you can do. You can walk around, but every step of the way, you can't do this thing called being where you are. You can't do that. So there's not this thing you can't do, but what you are is what's required for you to receive the gift. If you don't do what you are, if you don't be what you are, which you can't do, you don't get the gift. But you can be what you are. It's more like if you just stop resisting and quibbling with what you are, the gift comes to you. And it's coming to you anyway, but if you're fudging with being what you are, it kind of keeps slipping off you. You keep going on and on. I don't really think this is, this isn't quite enlightenment. This isn't really liberation from suffering. It should be a little different from this. I have an idea about what liberation would be like, you know, and this isn't quite it. But being here is where, when you're being here, you're also saying, yeah, I am being here.

[35:13]

I mean, yeah, right. I'm just like flat out being here because, of course, I have to be, but I'm also completely in accord with what I have to be. I have to be Matt right now with my problems and my happiness and my body-mind. When you're with your body-mind that way, you're not interfering with that body-mind that you have. It's dropping away. In the dropping away, the gift, the release, the touching of Zen, the healing of the universe is right there. You reach it. And you don't have to go to the Zendo for this to happen. It's happening before you get to the Zendo. It's happening before you get out of your bed in the morning to go to the Zendo. It's always happening. So it's fine to stay in bed. It's going to be happening there, too. However, you did agree to go to the... They're taking attendance, too.

[36:15]

What? They're taking attendance in there. But... The body that is dropping off is dropping off in the context of the body that's dropped off. And the body that's dropped off is the body that supports all beings. And that body might get up and go to the zendo. It doesn't always get up and go to the zendo, but it might. It might get up and go to the zendo, but not because it's trying to get something. Now, bodies can get up and go to Zen to try to get something, but this is not the spirit of practice. Spirit of practice is to be awakened by all beings.

[37:18]

The alarm clock is all beings and all Buddhas getting you up. Ding, ding, ding, ding, ding. The Buddhas are getting you up. The wake-up bell is all the Buddhas knocking on your door and saying, Practice dropped-off body and mind. If you really feel like when the bell's ringing, the practice of dropping-off body and mind is to stay in your bed and just drop-off body and mind in your bed, fine. Then the Eno will come and ask you. You say, I'm doing it right now. It's happening right now. You know? And the Eno will come and tell me. And I'll come and meet you and your eyes will be full of tears and you will bow to me, you know, and offer incense to express your joy. Because you feel the whole universe supporting you in this freedom. It will happen that way.

[38:20]

But you also might say, well, one of the greatest Zen masters in history, Yunmeng, said, how come when the bell goes, we put on our robe and go to the meditation hall? How come that happens? He asked that too, the greatest Zen master of all time. How come? How does it happen? How does it happen? Well, watch. Check it out tomorrow morning. See how it happens. Watch how the bell rings and your body rises up and goes to the zendo and sits like people have been doing for 2,500 years. Watch how that happens. See if really you make it happen. See if really that's the case. And if you do think it's happening that way, see that you think that it's happening that way and see that you're holding onto your body-mind. See that that's misery. and so on. But also it's possible that you'll be awakened every step of the way to the Zen door every morning. It can happen. You don't have to be pushing yourself to be a good boy or a good girl to get to the Zen door.

[39:21]

It doesn't have to be that story. It can be that the dropped-off body and mind responds to the bell and wants to embrace all beings who are supporting him by going and practicing with them, by doing this social thing. which helps everybody else. And you share your enlightenment with everybody by going to the Zen door. You can do it from your room too. Fine. But nobody's ringing the bell for you to stay in your room. That's not what they mean. Ding, ding, ding, stay in your room. You know that. They mean, ding, ding, ding, come on, let's play. Let's interact. This is Buddha-land time, you know. Let's all go and sit in Zendo and be Buddhas together. That's what that means. You know that. But you don't have to go if you don't want to, but they're not asking you to stay in bed. You know that. So if people ask you to come, why not? You got something better to do, do it. But nobody that does it usually have anything better to do. Now, if the bell doesn't ring, you probably do have something better to do because nobody's inviting you to come and practice Zen with them.

[40:25]

Why should you go? But here, we're saying, come on, let's do this thing together. Let's sit together and love each other in this way. Let's do it. It's like, what could be more fun? Well, you know, if you've got something better, do it. But, you know, please tell us what it is so we can, like, check it out and say, wow, this is great. This is fantastic. You know, here you are in the garden at this time in the morning. It's fantastic. Sniffing closed roses. Very subtle. That, you know, when somebody knocks on your door and says, come and play, you don't like sort of hide in the corner and say, okay, I'm not going to talk to you. This is very unusual. Buddhists don't usually say, okay, I'll pretend like I'm sick. Because, you know, I want to go play in the garden instead of sit.

[41:26]

Because that's really, I can feel that's what my dropped-off body and mind wants to do. Well, the thing about having dropped-off body and mind is you don't have to lie about it. You don't lie about it. You sing about it. You say, hey, guess what? I'm not going to the zendo. I'm going to the garden. And anybody who wants to come with me, including whoever you know, whoever, can come along. And whoever may say, okay, or whomever may say, would you please come to the zendo? You say, okay, okay. You're not attached to celebrating your enlightenment the way you thought about it for a second. You know, this body-mind thing just drops away. And when somebody says, would you please, you know, let your body-mind drop away now and come to the zendo, you say, okay. Halfway to the zendo, you might have another little attack. You know, start dancing a little bit again. And people say, okay, if that was nice, please come to the zendo. Or they might dance with you. Maybe everybody will get up and go to the garden. Who knows, you know? Things like this do happen. But there's lawfulness of things, too.

[42:27]

And most of the people are into this rut. So why not go with them? Because they're inviting you to come. Was there any other? Rosie, did you have your hand raised sometime? You still want to? I wanted to ask about if the nature of women is permanent. Yes. Right. It does. It's very much to do with it. If the nature of wind is permanent, why fan? So if the nature of wind is permanent, why do any form of practice? Huh? Right? So what did the teacher do? He fanned himself. That's the answer. If you ask somebody, you ask a Zen teacher, you see a Zen teacher going to the Zendo, say, the nature of the Buddha Dharma is, you know, permanent and reaches everywhere. How come you're going into the Zendo?

[43:28]

Right? What's his answer? Huh? He goes to the zendo. That's his answer. Pardon? You understand... Right. Hey, what's the nature of reaching everywhere? Watch. It's going to reach the zendo now. You know? If you asked him if he was going to the garden and you said to him, the nature of practice is that it reaches everywhere, how come you're going to the garden? You could say the same to him there. You could say, the nature of wind is permanent and it reaches everywhere. Why are you brushing your teeth? Okay? He could say the same thing. What would her answer be? She'd go like this. She'd do it. She'd do it. You know, there it is. They're showing you it reaching that place.

[44:29]

Everything they do is the wind reaching that place that they're at. So if they're already fanning themselves, you say, how come you're doing that? If the dropped-off body-mind reaches fanning, how come you're fanning? Only because you're fanning. If he wasn't going to the zendo, You could ask him that for whatever he was doing, and the reason for doing it is just to bring it to that place. But people like to hang out with people who have realized this, so they sometimes advertise where they're going to be. And the place they're going to be is called the practice place. So they go and sit in the practice place. In other words, they're publicly announced that they're going to be practicing there.

[45:31]

If you want to go practice with somebody who has realized freedom, they sometimes tell you where they're going to do it, and then it turns into a zendo. When Suzuki Roshi was in Japan, he didn't go to the Zendo as often as he did when he came to America because people didn't ask him where he was going to be sitting to practice with him. When he came to America, everybody wanted to know, how can we practice with you? So he said, okay, well, I'll be in the Zendo. He could have said, well, I'll be in bed, but not that many people could get it. He had a tiny little bedroom, you know. And his wife didn't want all the people in there. So you get out of bed and you go into a larger room. If you have a lot of students and it's the 60s and all these hippies are coming, so you get a big room. But the whole thing is just being together with somebody who has realized Zen practice.

[46:35]

What Zen practice has realized, this body and mind dropping off all the time. And therefore, they're nice to be with because their freedom incarnate. They're convinced. Down to their, you know, the way their body and mind works, they're convinced not to hold on to this one either. And it's nice to be with them. So they say, well, if you want to be with me, let's see, where could we meet? Okay, well, let's meet in kind of like a neutral space. Rather than me come to your house, let's meet in like a practice place, because people might get confused if you come to my bedroom. So I'll get up early and meet you there, and you get up early and meet me there. And we can do this thing together, and we can celebrate freedom every morning, but we could do it anyway. And if Suzuki Roshi had, if we came to Zen Center to practice, you know, meditation and he said, well, actually, we're going to take a walk in the park, we would have gone with him to the park. But if you go to the park, people get lost in the bushes, you know.

[47:39]

They do, you know. Everybody has to stop by somebody, you know, gets a snow cone or something. So it's convenient to have this situation so we can be together. And then if anybody's holding onto their body and mind, then we can be with them and help them with their attachment by showing them our non-attachment or by showing them, yeah, I'm attached too, but I'm not giving up even though I'm still attached right next to you. Let's both go, you know, discuss with the teacher, you know, our problem about our attachments to what Zen is. Okay? Tanya? Why wall-facing? Why wall-facing? Again, there's no set reason except it's a tradition, it's a lovely tradition, and facing the wall.

[48:52]

Wall facing is one of the ways to say it. Another way to say it is wall gazing. But it doesn't mean gazing at the wall. It means that you're joining the practice of the way the wall gazes. So the way the wall is, is dropped off body and mind. Walls don't hold on to their wall-ness. They can't, because they don't have any wall-ness that they can hold on to. But we think we have a self, a body-mind that you can hold on to, so that's why we suffer. If we'd be like the wall, that would mean we would experience dropped-off body-minds. So we did this wall-gazing, again, because you sit there and you say, again, if you're walking down the street, you know, like, I don't know what, you know, say, well, let's take a walk in the garden. The garden. The garden. Nobody wonders why I'm walking in this garden. You know what?

[49:54]

You think, I'm walking in the garden because of the flowers and the lettuce and the sky and the mountains. That's why I'm walking in the garden. You know what I'm saying? What am I doing here? Why walk this way? Why don't I walk backwards? Why don't I walk with my hands? But when you're facing the wall, you say, well, how come I'm sitting like this? Oh, yeah. I'm sitting like this. Because of this thing called Zen practice, that's why I'm sitting here. I'm not sitting here for, like, because it's got good scenery or to get exercise. I'm sitting here to be like a wall. I'm sitting here to, like, not move. I mean, I'm moving, but I'm trying to learn how to not move. That's why I'm here. And this wall gazing kind of reminds you of that because this is not what you would have chosen as your entertainment. Now we could face the other way and there'd be a perfectly good reason for that too. Face the other way to see the other people, that the reason why you're there is these other people.

[50:55]

No matter where you look, there's always a good reason for what you're doing. But no matter what you're doing and no matter how good the reason, the practice is that that whole situation is dropping away. And whether you're practicing or not, the whole situation is dropping away. So practice is always to accord with reality. And any situation is a perfectly good opportunity. And so this is just a little setup we have just to get the hang of it. I didn't feel like you were expressing any disrespect either. Did you think I did? Oh, not at all. I have not felt any disrespect tonight from anybody in the universe. Okay, and I'm not kidding.

[51:56]

But I am happy about that, that there's not any disrespect in the whole universe. I'm happy about that. I've never seen you be disrespectful. Do you think you can be disrespectful? Huh? You think so? Well, that's a body-mind thing. That's a body-mind thing. Yes, I have this idea that I can be disrespectful. Well, fine. Practicing Zen is for that to drop away. If you disrespect anything, practicing Zen is that dropping away. If you respect anything, practicing Zen is that dropping away. Now, it turns out that respecting things is respecting a thing that's happening. It's not respecting things that aren't happening. It's okay to respect things that aren't happening, but it's mainly about things that are happening that there are respects for. And if you respect what's happening, you just basically don't move or you just basically don't quibble.

[53:04]

You don't try to get away from it. You know, like if you meet somebody, if you respect them, you say, well, yeah, it's you I'm talking to. I'm not going to ask for another person to talk to. This is an expression of respect. I'm actually willing to talk to the person in front of me right now. And then in that kind of meeting, this experience of this person drops away and you're liberated from this meeting, this wonderful meeting. And then you get another one, and again, the practice continues in this way. So is it enough questions tonight about this practice? And body-mind, you know, everything that anybody ever experiences, that's body-mind. You can skip down the path.

[54:07]

You can jump rope. You can do yoga. You can eat lunch. You can do bows. You can sit upright. You can do anything. And all those experiences will be body-mind experiences. And hopefully they'll all be harmless and full of good intention. But they're still body-mind experiences. No matter how good the intention is, intentions are body-mind events. Practice is when the drop and the shedding of them. Practice of Zen is the shedding of them. The freedom from even good intentions, the non-attachment even to good intentions, and the non-attachment to bad intentions. The non-seeking of good intentions and the non-seeking in bad intentions. So no matter what's happening, Zen practice is possible. Liberation is possible. And therefore, no matter what's happening, the world can be healed of this wound of delusion, of attachment and anxiety.

[55:16]

So should I take one more question or should we stop? Well, now there's four. What? You're not going to be five? Okay, Lance and Mimi didn't ask questions before. Yes, Lance? You said something earlier on the CD that I'm still pondering. It's something about stillness, about that in actuality, we're really still in every moment. Yes. But you were just talking about all kinds of activities that our body-mind experiences. Yes. So is stillness what we are when body-mind drop off? Or I mean, is that... No. How is it that we are stillness in every moment? There's stillness whether body-mind... Body-mind is always dropping off. And in stillness, body and mind drops off.

[56:25]

So actually what you are is stillness. You are not two different people. You're not this person and another person. For there to be movement, you have to be here and then you have to be over someplace else. Movement requires you to be in two different places, right? You can't move without being, huh? If your hand's here, it's not moving. For it to move, it has to be here, and then it has to move over here. But before it moves, it's here, and when it gets over there, it's there. So now I'm this person, now I'm this person, and you can impute movement to that change. Right? So at any moment, I'm where I am. I'm not moving in that moment. Otherwise, I couldn't be here. And me, the way I actually am, is dropped off. If we appreciate the stillness of each experience, appreciate, you know, like respect it, appreciate it, accept it, it means that we're not trying to be somebody else in the moment.

[57:34]

We're still, we're not moving. So not moving is our faith. You don't do not moving, you are not moving. And in that not moving, unmoving acceptance of what's happening, you understand, you realize the dropped-off body and mind. So are unmovable sittings to help us realize that in every moment? Unmovable sitting is to help us realize that in every moment? Yeah. Even though that doesn't do it, it's part of our helping program. Mimi? I don't want to hold things up. Okay. So let us conclude. And I just want to tell you that I didn't know how long your question and answers were going to go on, and I was going to try to relate the precept practice to the practice of Zen and the practice of body-mind dropping off.

[58:39]

So I just want to tell you that I'd like to do that. And we may never be able to do that because you may want to talk about... just what Zen practice is in terms of dropping off body and mind for the rest of the practice period, which is fine, but I do have this possibility of starting to discuss the relationship between the precepts, the bodhisattva precepts practice in Soto Zen and this practice of dropping off body and mind. If you want to, you can remind me and we can weave that into the picture in later discussions. May I tell the truth.

[59:19]

@Transcribed_UNK
@Text_v005
@Score_86.4