Was there something more you wanted to do on the last case? Or some questions about that? Probably it's been said, but I didn't hear it. Is there a difference between being reviled for preaching, reading, publishing, or practicing the Diamond Sutra versus being reviled for something else? And the second and much broader question, which relates to The discussion that took place here afterwards is, what is my practice when I am reviled? Okay, so part of the reason for this statement being made in the Diamond Sutra may be that

[01:19]

In fact, people who were practicing the Diamond Sutra might have been a little surprised that here they are practicing the study of perfect wisdom and they're being reviled. They think, well, how come, you know? How surprising they might feel. Whereas if you're like, I don't know what, being cruel and people revile you, you might not be so surprised. So in fact, you know, there may not be... There's another teaching for what to do when you're being reviled or scorned when you're doing something that you think is, you know, scornworthy. A different practice, maybe slightly different teaching for you at that time. This is a case where you might not expect to be scorned,

[02:20]

reviled and humiliated? Well, I was thinking about, here is Hakuin. Suddenly he is being reviled for fathering a child when he's supposed to be a monastic. Yeah. Right. His outer response is different from his inner response. So, his outer response is, is that so? What's his inner response? What do you think his inner response is? Quite possibly. Not acquiescence or not acceptance, But shock, indignation, humiliation, who knows? Yeah, there might have been that. There might have been an inner response of shock.

[03:22]

Well, I think maybe there was a sense of shock, you know, just like if somebody pours hot water on you, your body kind of goes, you know, something shocking. I think probably he was shocked. whether he had an indignation or not at being reviled. And you might say, turns out, falsely reviled. He was being reviled, but the basis for it was not too good. But there might have been some indignation, but on some level, I think, inside and outside, he was open to consider what was going on. he was like, I would say, oh, how does it come that this is happening somehow? I'm looking at that. So he continues to... And then in the other case where he's being praised, I think his inner response might be, he might not be shocked, he might feel rather comfortable to be praised, but his inner and outer practice would be the same.

[04:25]

The practice, the physiological and psychological reactions to being praised and blamed may be activated in him. Yes. But that's not the practice. The practice is... Well, the practice in his case, I would say, is the practice of the Diamond Sutra. But one of the main differences between being scorned and reviled while you're practicing the Diamond Sutra and scorned and reviled while you're doing some unwholesome karma... is that in both cases, your karma is maturing. In both cases, I would say. And the karma is not really, the scorn is not really for what you're doing right now, according to that teaching. It's from something in the past that you're getting this for. It's just that you might be surprised that here you are doing kind of the best practice you've ever done, maybe. and you're feeling really good about it, and then this is happening. But that happens. You can be doing a very good practice and have this stuff fall on you from past actions.

[05:27]

That's part of what this is about. Not only that, but I think that in some ways when your practice is really good, like if you're practicing a very... what's the word? A very true, very deep teaching, in some ways that might draw almost... the maturation of your karma more intensively than if you were just doing something in some sense milder and less intense. But the difference between getting revilement in one case and the other is that in one case you'd be generating karma while you're receiving the retribution. So that although receiving the retribution would be maturing the karma, or would be receiving the maturing, you wouldn't be at the same time developing the wisdom. So as karma is cleared, you wouldn't be setting up the opportunity for insight because of the state of your presence.

[06:29]

Whereas in the other case, you're developing your wisdom simultaneously with processing your karma. So you could be ready for awakening In one case, in the other case, you're still, although your karma is maturing through you, you're also generating more karma rather than practicing wisdom. So the practice, hopefully the practice when we're being praised or reviled will be, you know, the words might be, oh, is that so? But what that means is, well, not what it means, but what it might mean is, oh, Of being reviled. Of being reviled. As not being reviled as is taught by the Buddha. Therefore, I'm being reviled. So, I'm being reviled. I'm being reviled. But what does that mean?

[07:31]

That means not being reviled. Therefore, I am reviled. I am being reviled. That's a practice you might be doing while being reviled. If I can remember it. Yeah, if you can remember it or if I can channel it through you. Yes. But one more. If I don't express what I feel when I'm being reviled, You mean the psychological reaction? Yes. Yeah. Is there something amiss with that, with not expressing? I mean, we've been stressing express.

[08:33]

Going back to the Hakamon example? Not necessarily. No, I'm just saying, going back to that example, I said maybe he was feeling indignation. Yes. In a way, you know, the practice of wisdom is not really compatible with feeling indignation when falsely accused. So I think maybe, although you might be shocked by the negative energy or the harsh energy of being reviled and, you know, your body might cringe in some sense, your actual understanding, you know, your intellectual work is that you're not getting angry at this person. You are You are appreciating this. You're actually praising this manifestation in your life. You're praising this opportunity. And then also practicing wisdom, hopefully. But if you can't yet practice wisdom, at least you can say thank you for this opportunity. Because this opportunity is not only...

[09:35]

clearing your accounts to some extent, but it's also giving you a chance to practice wisdom. Now, if you could do that, you might actually be able to then also start practicing wisdom right then. So the indignation actually, when I think of it, is not compatible with with the proper response. The proper response should be thank you. Of course, if I say that to a person unschooled in these matters, the revilement might increase. If you say what to whom? If I say thank you for this opportunity. Oh, no, don't say it out loud. Unless you want to intensify the clearing. That's what I'm saying. That's how I understood it. Like with my daughter, I tell the story of my daughter. At some age, she started reviling me.

[10:38]

From her birth, she would project things onto me which people would ordinarily consider obnoxious. But since they were coming from her, I never considered them obnoxious. So she vomited in my face right after she was born, you know, and my daughter's vomit or my daughter's shit was not obnoxious to me, right? So when she started speaking, you know, and the words were like shit or vomit, to me it was like it was funny. It was just like I laughed when she vomited in my face. I don't know if I laughed, but I kind of laughed. Isn't it just wonderful to be vomited upon and not be bothered by it? It's just kind of funny. It's wonderful. So this person could call me whatever, you know, And it didn't bother me. But the problem was I would laugh at her sometimes when she was calling me these names. Then she would really get... It wasn't so much that she would get more angry, although she would get more angry, or that she'd say worse things, although she would say worse things. The bad part was that it defeated her.

[11:46]

So it's okay that they would get more angry at you in a way, That might be okay, but the bad part would be that you would, in some sense, take away their confidence that they can't touch you. And when they can't touch you, in some ways you should let them know that they can't touch you. So gradually I stopped letting her know that she couldn't touch me. And then finally she actually got to me. And then I let her know she could get to me. That was helpful for her, to know that she could. But I think you don't tell the other person that it's not being effective. Don't tell them that. I don't think that's helpful. But to appreciate them on a deep level, to appreciate them, not to sort of say, you're not getting to me or this is funny, but to appreciate them, really, that something comes across there. I think some teaching comes across to them, which is real important to them. But you don't get angry in this case.

[12:51]

You don't. You don't. you really do, on some level, say thank you. Now, the way you say thank you is not necessarily internal or external thank you, but you understand this is a spiritual process I'm involved in here. I mean, if we're being reviled, and if it's good quality revilement and good quality scorn, then it's working. It's doing a scorn thing, fine, right? We're not evading the scorn. We're accepting, I'm being scorned, I'm humiliated. That part's working, you're not running away from that. But then why not now have it be an opportunity for practice too? That's basically it. Now you might say, well, I've done some bad things. I probably can't practice because I've done some bad things. Well, yeah, that's right. There's some part of us that doesn't feel like that. But when you're being scorned, that's being cleared. So now you can practice. So go ahead.

[13:51]

You know? Say thank you and practice the Diamond Sutra. And then more will come and say thank you and practice the Diamond Sutra. Okay? Okay? Yes? But just as you cannot force yourself to love somebody... Force yourself to love somebody? To love somebody. What do you mean, force yourself? Well, you either do or you don't. You either do or you don't. Right. You either get angry or you don't. Yes? I don't think practice is to feel or think in a certain way, but to be present to whatever arises, whether it's a demon or an angel, and you don't try to wiggle them around and change them, or you don't try to manipulate. Right. And you don't force yourself to do that practice you just told us about, right?

[14:55]

But that is practice. And that is love. But you don't force yourself to do that practice which is love. You just do it or you don't. If you do it, you're practicing. If you meet things as they are and work with them as they are, And then somebody maybe wants to know, well, how do I get over into the practice department? Somebody might want to get over there and do the practice, right? So how shall we proceed under... how can we practice? I guess what first occurred to me was taking that... maybe the indignation I would feel as somebody when they were violating me and practicing the Diamond Sutra with my own indignation towards them first.

[16:23]

I couldn't follow that. Do you see what I mean? By thanking, by sort of saying thank you to yourself first for having this feeling of indignation towards this person, because that's a chance for you to practice, it's something you can notice, so that in the future you may be able to be thankful to that person. You know what I mean? I seem like maybe a step or move puts the word to start. Well, yeah, that's some place to start. It's a fine place to start. All manifestations of life are opportunities for praise and appreciation and love. Same thing. Yes, Skidder? I wanted to praise the opportunity to read this wonderful poem. Thank you.

[17:27]

Well, that's what you call it, but I call it Chingman's. Okay, is that enough on the last thing? Ready to move on to the next case? Okay. So the introduction says, try to get it, try to get rid of it, and it stays. Try to keep it and it leaves. Not leaving, not staying, it has no country. Where will you meet it? Everywhere, every place. Now tell me, what thing can be so special, so wonderful? What could be so wonderful, so wonderful that it's everywhere?

[18:35]

That it's everywhere. It has no country. So that's what this is about. It's about something really wonderful. So this monk asked Ching Lin, which by the way means, as you know, if you read the commentary, it means green forest. That's because he lived in a temple in the small green forest. Xiao Ching Lin. Monk asked Ching Lin, When students go by a shortcut, then what? And I would lighten up on this shortcut thing.

[19:37]

Just anyway, when students go on the path, when students are going on the path, how is it? In other words, don't emphasize too strongly that this is talking about a shortcut. If you want, I think it's more like feeling really on the, sort of like, you're kind of like, you're on to it. You know, when students are kind of on to it, that kind of thing more. Not necessarily like you're taking a shortcut, but like you're really on to it. Like if direct. Like direct, you know, or you're kind of like, you're right with it. Are there any more of the cases? Are there any more of the copies? Yeah. You mean copies of the case? Yeah. Does anybody else need a copy of the case? There's some over there. I'd like to give the people who are from outside the copies first since we can get more copies for people who live here.

[20:46]

Okay, so then Ching Lin says, a dead snake lies across the great road. I urge you not to step on its head. And also I would lighten up on stepping on the head business. Just, you know, a simpler way to put it would be, now don't put too much emphasis on the stepping on the head. Now, just don't bump into it. Okay? There's a snake across the road. Don't step on it. Don't bump into it. Yes? I agree with your lightening up on those two things, and I wonder if you would lighten up on dead snake. On dead? Dead. No, I don't. It does say dead snake, however, you know, from reading the rest of it, I wonder if you could imply that a deadly snake is on the road.

[22:07]

No. Because sometimes they look dead and they're not. I think... I'm not going to do that, but I appreciate your point that it might be a deadly snake, okay? But I think that the point is here that this is a dead snake. But you can have... You come out the other side and say, maybe the back side of this is that it's a deadly snake, okay? So maybe it's dead and maybe it's deadly. Or both. A deadly snake that's dead. Yeah. Could be a deadly snake that's dead. Or it could be a dead snake that's deadly. It's, you know, still deadly. So, it's very... Let's not... My feeling is, I want this to be actually a dead snake, but I appreciate that there's this deadly quality, too. Now, a dead snake, ladies and gentlemen, might not be perceived as a dead snake by the student.

[23:16]

Right? In other words, this is a deadly snake that might appear to you. It's a deadly snake that might appear to you as a deadly snake, but actually might be dead. That's another possibility there. You know what I mean? It looks like it's alive to you, and it's a poisonous snake that looks like it's alive, perhaps. But I would suggest you consider that this snake is actually not alive anymore. It's not living, but it looks like it. And it once was. It once was, but it's not anymore. That's a possibility. Yes? Okay, now the monk says, now if you do bump into it or step on its head, then what? You lose your life. How about when one doesn't confront or doesn't bump into it?

[24:24]

And then he says, there's still no where you can escape. Just at such a moment, then what? It's lost. What does that one refer to? At just what moment? When there's no escape? I think, yeah, when there's no escape. That's part of the reason why I think that is also because later it says, you know, it has an expanded version of that statement, where it says, just at such a time, no one around can do anything, what would be right? That's a parallel to this. At just such a time, what then? At just such a time, when no one around can do anything, what would be right? At just such a time when no one around can do anything, what would be right? And he says, it's lost.

[25:29]

The monk says, where has it gone? And Ching Lin says, the grass is deep. There's no place to look for it. In other words, you can look for it any place you want because the grass is very deep. There's no place in particular to look for it. The grass is just... You're in tall grass, right? So... But no place to look for it could be... Be careful. Don't step on it. And then the monk says, you... Two should be on guard, teacher. Another way to read that would be, teacher, if you're on guard, you'll be all right.

[26:38]

And teacher says, this one's equally poisonous. And another way to understand this is, this one's as equally poisonous to me. This guy is equally poisonous to me. For the monk's sake, you take this guy. This monk is equally poisonous to me, the teacher. And the other way would be, this monk's equally poisonous as a dead snake, or whatever state as the snake's in. This monk is as poisonous as the snake or meat. Poisonous as? Yeah. Equally poisonous to meat. Or, another way to read it, that this monk's equally poisonous to the snake. As the snake. Yes? Might it mean also that the teacher is also vulnerable?

[27:46]

This way? Yes. And to the monk. And to the monk. Yes. Is that what you said? No, I think you're just pointing out the teacher could... Well, the line before us, it kind of indicates the teacher is vulnerable. Right? The teacher is vulnerable to the student. This is a danger we never outgrow. It's a danger we never outgrow. Yeah, I'd say so. If you're a bodhisattva, anyway. If you're a saint, maybe you seem to outgrow it while you're in your saintly stage. Could it refer to being on guard as a posture? It was so poisonous. Say it again.

[28:47]

That being on guard as a posture would be dangerous as well, poisonous. As opposed to being flexible or permeable. On guard as a state. You mean the monk is telling him he should be on guard? Yeah. So that he'll be in danger? No, no. Being on guard like staying alert, aware. Yeah. I'm also blanking on the teacher's name who said, are you awake? Yes, I am. You have that kind of on guard. You kind of got stuck there that that could be deadly poisons to yourself. Uh-huh. Yeah. Does that make sense? It does, but I don't quite see how you're pointing out it to be related to here.

[29:49]

Where does it fit into here? Are you relating it to this? Yeah, I was thinking of it not so much that he was relating to the person or the monk, like acknowledging him as poisonous, but as that if you hold this as an idea of being on guard, that that can be poisonous as well. Well, I think your point is, as you say, well taken, but it seems to me that the monk is talking to the teacher, and he's suggesting that it's good for the teacher to be on guard. Now, the way to be on guard is not to be rigid, That's not a good way to be on guard, especially if you're in tall grass and you don't know where the snakes are. It's good to be on guard, but in some kind of open and be vulnerable to this field of vulnerability. That's going to make you more intelligent. You can be vulnerable, but not freak.

[30:53]

Yes? Along those lines, just a minute ago you said that that same last line can be read, if you're on guard, you'll be okay. And when you said that, then I thought, oh, well then that last line, this one's equally poisonous, is clearly referring to that idea that you'll be okay if you're on guard. It was just, I think, maybe what Sonia was saying. So that idea is poisonous, the idea of, If you take the stance, then you'll be OK. So the monk was really poisonous to tell the teacher that it would be OK. He's kind of setting the teacher up and getting him ready for the kill. You seem to like that idea. I understood a little different that the situation is no escape and no... and it's lost, there's no... nothing else to go.

[32:04]

And when the monk in that situation says, what did you have to be to watch out too? And the teacher says, no, this is not, don't turn to me or don't talk about me or it's not, this is not the alternative. So the teacher gives that back, so this is... That's also, there's no escape. Again, escape cannot be to tell the teacher that he should be careful. I see that the next of us statement is the monk herself had sort of a mini-enlightenment, if you will, and Chin Lin sort of confirming that. Saying, even I have to wait and watch out for this one. What's that actual danger that's being referred to?

[33:11]

Going off the path of practice? You know, it says to lose your life. Do you lose your life? What do you mean, to lose your life? Yeah. Well, it's fine to say, you know, that you deviate from the path. You can say it that way. That's true, I think. But also, it's that you actually lose your life. You know, like you got this life and you lose it. You maybe have a little bit, something left, maybe.

[34:12]

But you actually lose life. not necessarily die, but you actually lose some of your vitality. That's the same as not being on the path. Being on the path is facing your whole life. That's one way to talk about it. It seems the only thing unusual about the story is that the snake is dead. That's a weird twist, I don't think. Where it seems to be saying, because the snake was alive, everything they were saying would be the natural things people would say to each other when they confronted the snake. The fact that it's dead, it just seems to be saying that You know, bad karma never totally dies, but there is still the danger, even when something is dead, that it can still hurt you, because there's some energy left over from what it was that somehow can still have an effect.

[35:15]

That's all, you know, what we relate it to, is something still about the snake, even though it's dead, could hurt them. Well... They need to be wary of it. Yeah. Or you can say, your response to the snake might hurt you. The snake's not going to hurt you. it's your response to the snake that's going to hurt you. Like if you eat the snake, it might make you sick. If you run away in fright, it might break your leg. So I don't know if it's that. Your past karma is not going to really hurt you. It's dead. It's not going to really hurt you. It's just going to hurt. I mean, it's going to... The spiritual story is your karma is going to come, it's going to manifest, and that's not really the problem. That's the given situation. That's the place where karma is coming on to us, this dead stuff. Right? Karmic result is dead.

[36:17]

It's not alive anymore. But it can hurt us, right? Or it can be like cover us with jewels. Right? But these are dead, all this stuff is dead. Okay? It's our reaction to it that's the problem. But also we sometimes think that this stuff is alive. We think it's hurting us, you know. We don't realize that actually it's giving us something to relate to. It's the only thing that bodhisattvas have to work with, actually, is these dead snakes. But this is their playground. to show, you know, the proper response to... to what, you know, to jewels and snakes. So the real danger is that we respond inappropriately to what's given to us. And not just step on a cat or something. Yeah, not just... Well, stepping on his head probably would be inappropriate.

[37:22]

Even a dead thing, if you step on it, you could sprain your ankle. Or perhaps you could get hurt if you don't respond to it properly anyway. But the thing itself, I wouldn't put the blame on the dead snake or on your past karma, the results of your karma. That stuff is just given to you now as something to work with. But we have to be careful with it. But don't put it on that the thing is going to hurt us. The hurt of the thing is all we have to work with. Or the pleasure of the thing. These are the things we have to work with. Right? Our feelings are dead snakes. Would the word imaginary or illusionary also catch a little bit of the meaning of what the snake is? Imaginary illusory? Uh... I wouldn't go so far as to say no, but I think to call karmic results imaginary or illusory is OK, but it's OK.

[38:32]

All right. Yes? Just speaking factually, I think the venom in the dead snake is deadly. Is deadly, yeah. I just don't know what happens if you eat snake venom. I don't know what happens if it goes through your digestive system. But if you puncture... Yeah, if it came in through your bloodstream, it seems like it would still be pretty effective. I'm just saying there's various ways to relate to the venom and some of them would be more or less damaging to you. But the main thing is how are you going to respond to the smoke? That's the key factor. Any new hands? First timers? Okay, second timers. Yes? Yes? You said that karmic results are not illusion.

[39:40]

Are not illusion? Are not illusion. Well, I just... I didn't say they aren't or are. To say they aren't is getting into the same thing as that they are. They are just phenomena, you know? What I mean to say is that you are dealing with the delusions that are caused by your past karma. For example, you meet somebody and this person for some reason reminds you of somebody else, you don't actually see this person. Right. You see what you're projecting onto this person coming back from your karma, coming to you from your karma, so the result may not be illusionary, but you're dealing with your own illusion. I understand, you're dealing with karma. Well, if I see someone and I understand that what I'm seeing is just what I'm seeing, then in a sense it's not exactly a delusion, it's just a phenomenon for me.

[40:59]

But most people don't see it that way. I understand that, but I'm just saying, I wouldn't say that what's given to me is necessarily a delusion. I wouldn't get into calling it a delusion, but if it was a delusion, then if I would say, okay, that's a delusion, then I find, you know, that's correct. But in a sense, a color doesn't have to be seen as a delusion. To make too much out of it is a kind of delusion. But just to accept that a color is manifesting to my sensory equipment, that's one way to handle the color. Or if you know that that color may not truly, maybe... colored by other colors from your past, that you're not really seeing what is there.

[42:03]

In other words, what you see is what you see, but most of the time what we see is distorted. I'm saying I, at least. Most of the time what I see is distorted. Well, so, this is your view of most of the time how you see things, as you have just said, right? Right? Yes. So, if you think that's true, what you just said, about the way you work with things, all right? If you think that that was true, then that would be a delusion. to your opinion that you just expressed there. That would be a delusion if you thought that was true. I don't know if you did think that was true, but if in fact you thought what you just said about the way you operate was the truth, then that would be a delusion about the way you operate.

[43:06]

Number two? My impression of this is that not... not, not running away and not stepping on the snake's head is to me, it's sounding like, um, be upright. Like don't, don't step on it and don't go away from it. Just sort of be there with it or see it, understand it. Do you, sounds good to me. I guess my question is then it sounds like there's still a danger though. Um, at the end, um, I mean, at such a time, then what?

[44:13]

Well, wait a minute. You jump from a nice place up to this mess at the end. I'm still way back at the beginning when he's just being upright after the teacher's instruction. Okay. Then he gets into what if you step on it. Okay? You just say he's not doing any of that stuff. He's just being upright with this snake, right? Right. So then the monk gets into, what about if he steps on it? Right. Well, then you lose your life. Right. Okay? What about if you don't know what to do? Well, then it's lost. Where did it go? Blah, blah, blah. You know? So, if this monk can do this and stay upright while he's talking like this, okay, great. Good for the monk. Right. But if you start... indulging in these various alternatives that he's involved in, then you're, you know, done for again and again. You're not being upright. This monk may not be falling for what he's saying himself. He may be just, like, talking to the teacher, right?

[45:18]

Like, he's upright, he follows the teacher's instruction, doesn't step on the snake's head, and then he says, well, what happens if I do? But he's not stepping on the snake's head. And the teacher foolishly says, you know, Well, you lose your life. You say, well, then how about if I don't step on it? I guess I'd take in this, there's still nowhere to escape. How about if I don't step on it? Then there's nowhere to escape, right? Right, I guess I'd seen that as a positive thing, like that's being upright when there's no escape. Yeah, right. If you don't step on it, there's no place to escape. In other words, you're back to where you were before you started talking about not stepping on it. Right. Okay? Okay. So if there's nowhere to escape, and then he says something which doesn't sound like being upright, but if you're upright, you can talk like not being upright. So if you're upright, you can say stuff like, well, and then what?

[46:23]

Or, what's going to happen to poor me? No, you don't fall for that kind of talk, even though it's your own. And also, when somebody else comes to you and says, guess what we have in store for you? You stay upright. You don't step on that snake. But even though you're not stepping on that snake and you're staying upright and you're not stepping on the snake and you're also not avoiding stepping on the snake, you just have nowhere to go, you say, well, let me guess now what you have in store for me. Early birthday party? And so on. Okay? So, part of what you can check out is whether you think this monk is upright through the whole story, whether you think these two people are upright through the whole story, or if you think that they're leaning into their language. Because the language is the language of, sounds like, you know, what next? What can I do? Kind of getting into karma. Sounds like that kind of talk. But maybe he's not talking that way.

[47:26]

Maybe he's just doing this for your sake. He's asking these questions for you. But you maybe think that he's not, that he slipped. Well, then prove it. Any number ones? Number one, number one, number one. So, taking a shortcut, would that be, like, why I need to be other than this, alternative to what's happening? No. No? That's why I said go light on the shortcut thing. Oh. Just think, you know, there's some sense, you know, sometimes you feel really present with your practice, let's say. That's kind of, you know, you're, like, close. You're close to, like, really being... You feel almost like you got the scent of it, you know? You can feel for it, like, jeez. Maybe I could actually practice someday, or maybe it would be all right to actually just drop everything and practice. I almost feel like I could just give everything up and just be here. It's almost like that.

[48:27]

You feel like that? Well, how is it then, right? Okay, there's a dead snake on the road. On the great road, on the big road, there's this dead snake. All right? That's why I say, don't think of it so much like you're on the road and you're trying, where's the shortcut? I don't think it's that, I don't get that feeling. I get feeling like, more like, when you're practicing and you're real close, you're getting, starting to get intimate with the practice. That's how I would take it. You really, you kind of, you feel like you're really there, you know? Feel confidence, feel happy with the practice. Things are going pretty well. Okay, maybe not quite grasping even. Maybe you haven't even got, maybe you're doing better than that. Maybe you're practicing wholeheartedly without grasping. Maybe you're like really feeling, you're feeling as though you're getting something, as though you were gaining something but with no gaining idea.

[49:28]

Like, you had the kind of feeling like, geez, I just got a whole bunch of good stuff. You know, I just got all these gifts and presents and I've attained all this stuff. But you know, with no idea like that, but that feeling, all the good stuff, you know, you have it, but you didn't try to get it. How about that? Well, dead snake on the road. Okay? Be careful. Be careful. Be careful, that's all. Just be careful, as usual. But now, continue being careful. Martha? I think you just answered it, because I was questioning again that first sentence, the first question, because I felt like when the student takes a shortcut, what came up for me was that he's still going into some dwelling in emptiness and avoiding... You're going to some jaundiced state, and thereby, in a sense, being a dead snake on the road, when the student takes a shortcut.

[50:32]

But you're really redefining that first question the way it's about the... Yeah, I don't think he's... that he's trying to get some state or something like that in his original question. I think he's kind of in accord with the spirit of the introduction, you know, like try to get it and try to get rid of it and stays, try to keep it and it goes. I think he's kind of in that, I think the monk's kind of into that realm. All the more the teacher says, watch out. Now, if he was slipping a little bit and trying to get something, then I think the same instruction could apply. It could be either way. But I give him more credit than that. But if you want to give him less credit, I think the teacher still might say that.

[51:34]

Raja and then Linda. I mean, kind of going on that, there's this thing here in the commentary that says he doesn't realize, what the student doesn't realize directly is already about moving off of your seat and saying, you know, like, okay, along the way, and then you've lost it already. But if that's the state of mind that he was in, then I think Ching-Lin wouldn't have said he just would have hit him on the head and that would have been the end of the movie. He wouldn't have kept going and going because it really feels like the student is challenging Ching-Lin. He's testing him. He's being very courageous here. He's coming up to him saying, so what do you think? And Ching-Lin really sees that this maybe he wants to test him too. He wants to test him back. Because otherwise, I mean, it's a very unusual thing that keeps, that Ching Lin keeps going with this thing where it seems at each point that the student's answer is kind of silly.

[52:39]

I'll face it. So it, the Ching Lin's no fool, so I don't think it's, it is silly in a way. So it's really, it really, this really is a Dharma combat. And in the end, I think Changlin says, you got it. When he said, this is a danger for you too. You have to be on guard. Changlin says, good. Yeah, I think that, what do you say, the fact that this story has survived, that this fairly long story has survived, that maybe there's something going on here. other than just a smart teacher and a so-so student. The fact that he continues to talk to him and the student keeps coming back and he keeps talking to him, the fact that this is going on and that people now have chosen to repeat this dialogue for quite a while means that maybe it's a pretty interesting dialogue. At least to some others and monks who lived hundreds of years later.

[53:49]

So it's kind of like again a way I've mentioned to some of you before that I heard this mathematician describe mathematics as going into a dark mansion and you go into a dark room and you move around in the room and you bump into furniture. And you bump into furniture for like six months. You don't just go in the dark room and stand still. You move around in the room and bump into furniture. Somehow you want to find out what's going on in the room but the lights are out. But every time you bump into furniture you find out, you know, something about the furniture like that it's a table or it's a or it's a... It doesn't seem to be a table or a chair.

[54:58]

It feels like a lamp. You start feeling the lamp and you can't find the light, the place to turn it on. So you go on, then later you find some place, maybe on something on the wall, and you turn it, and it's a switch, and the light comes on. But you... you moved around the room for quite a while, like maybe six months, you moved around the room, bumping into stuff until you found the light switch. And all that work was not wasted. So I think this is a good story to move around in the dark. And as you may notice, as you will notice in the verse, they're talking about moving in the dark, riding a boat in the dark. There's some kind of moving in the dark here. Like a labyrinth. Like a labyrinth, yeah. Is there some way you can feel that you're moving in the dark and that you're bumping up against something and finding out maybe that it's just a piece of something dark, something you're bumping into in the dark?

[56:09]

You don't know what it is yet, but you do bump into something. And then can you move some other direction and bump into something else? Just feel your way around in the room here. And then one of the things about... It's a mansion, right? Because once you turn the lights on in this room, then you go into another room. And another room, and another room. Yes? I would like to say that I belong to these people who are very afraid of snakes. And especially since I came to this country, because there are actual poisonous snakes living here. And... It happens quite often to me that, for example, I went down the path to the beach here, and there was something on the path, like maybe a ledge or a leaf, and I took it for a snake and maybe freaked for a second.

[57:12]

And I... So the next impulse is, oh silly me, it is just a branch. What I want to say is I think this moment is very valuable because the way it slips, like what in my mind, let's say in my mind it slips from a branch to a snake and back from a snake to a branch, I have a feeling It's kind of a question that that kind of reveals to me that this is constantly going on. What did you say? Almost like non-stop? Almost like non-stop. It's actually the slipping where things seem to speed up and double and I get afraid and I freak. That's actually kind of stopping. You say you're not freaking out quite as often?

[58:18]

Is that what you're saying? Did you say that sometimes you don't freak out when you see these snakes because sometimes you realize that you're not seeing correctly? I would answer seeing the snakes constantly lying on the path, I mostly don't freak out because I take them for granted. I really believe, oh, there's a dead snake. Oh, I see. But these moments, these rare moments are very precious in a way because I freak out to be in a way reminded that there's constant, I would say now, there's constant slipping going on. Oh, I see. Constantly doing something for what it is not. The other times you're doing the same thing, but you're not noticing it. So these times help you realize that you're doing it then plus maybe other times too. Because I ask myself, like this first sentence, try to get rid of it and it stays.

[59:31]

Try to keep it and it leaves. Just ask myself, for example, very concretely, what could this be? And what came up as an answer right away was a dream. What do you mean by that? It's a wave. I can... One perspective I could have is that's a story about a dream. It's a story about dreaming. It's a story about dreaming. Or it's a story about talking in a dream to another person who's talking in a dream. This is sort of what I was talking about a minute ago. I actually thought maybe that was. So the big key is whether one chooses to remember that one's in a dream. And then if you're in a dream, well, how can you like, how do you proceed if you're in a dream?

[60:39]

Can you still tell people how you feel? I mean, being in a dream, can you still say thank you? Thank you for what you said or in this dream you have just hurt my feelings. In this dream I feel disrespected by what I dreamed you said to me just now. Did you have your hand raised, Nora? Do you want to talk now? About what you had your hand raised about before? Sure. I was wondering if the dead snake seemed like ideas about how to go left back soon. Uh-huh. And then, um... Trying to get back to that lift that I'm quite excited about. You've calmed down a little bit? I'm not so excited about it.

[61:42]

So, it seems like... could you speak up please a way to um a way to navigate through life and to me that seems like it's me The dead snake, it represents having some way to navigate through life? Well, the marketplace would say, I'm going to practice. And then, you could just say, there's a dead snake on the road, so... Well, it sounds like what you were saying before, anyway, is that you intend to practice, and then you tell the teacher that, and the teacher says, well, if you grasp what you think is... If you have some idea about how to practice and you grasp that, watch out.

[63:01]

But then the teacher is also doing the same thing. Pardon? I feel like the teacher is also doing the same thing. Like this example, like he's saying... watch out, if anything. Well, here's how to watch out. So that itself, to me, is something that could also. So I interpreted that you two should be on guard. I interpreted the teacher as having a recognition, too, that his system, his idea about practice is completely poisonous. Yeah. Did you have your hand raised? Andrew? Yeah. First of all, I really don't think the snake's dead. And also, I think on a reflection... Well, that's alive, but you don't think it's dead.

[64:10]

Yeah, that is. I also think that the snake is treatment... Definitely cheating on anybody else. Yeah, well, he admits that at the end. Right. And he says, oh, you're a snake too. McMount says, look, I'm on the path. I'm going right down the path. Now what? He says, you better watch out because there's a deadly snake right there. And who it is? It's Pete. Yeah, I agree, except I think he's saying there's a dead snake on the path and it's me. Well, I think that he is deadly. And the monk says, don't confront it. You know it's good for you. He says, really? What happens if I confront it? He'll lose your life. And then says, I mean, the monk says, really? Well, how about if I don't confront it? He said, you've still got no place to escape. And he says, well, then what? Well, right in that very moment, when I have no place to go back and no place to go forward, what happens? He says, disappears. Yep. And the monk says, well, where does it go?

[65:11]

He says, well, it's lost in the grass. You'll never find it. So, you know, it seems pretty straightforward at that point. So, Okay, and you better watch out too, teacher. He says, oh, so you're poisonous too. That's my take on it. I do think it's a lie. I agree with you except for the part about being alive. Okay. I think... by ordinary standards of alive, is alive. But it's not actually alive. This whole story is dead. But I agree with you, except that at one point this whole story is dead.

[66:14]

Unlike the other stories? They're all dead. These are dead stories about dead people. They're grateful then, too. Can you tell us about the verse? Well, I don't know. It seems kind of late to get into the verse. I don't know if we wanted to skim the surface of that verse. What do you think? Are you going to rehearse? It seems like it's kind of not enough time. It'll be a long time. It'll be a long time, but you can work on this verse for three months or two months or whatever it is. We'll be in the session. Are you in the session, Elena?

[67:15]

Would you like to be? Tricky spot. Melissa, did you have your hand raised? I did, but it was just kind of a question about the commentary. I don't know if that's something... I'm just curious, because I just have this feeling that, at least for me, this case has felt much gentler or somehow accessible. What did you say? Gentler. What was gentler? The actual case that we've been talking about. The story seemed gentler? For some reason, it's accessible to my mind, and the conversation seems more... people talking about their interpretations of it. And I just keep looking at this top line on the commentary when someone says that later this fellow will trample everyone on earth to death.

[68:28]

And I'm just curious if you know what that is because it seems more like he doesn't seem to be trampling in the story. Well, it's not yet the story hasn't taken place yet. Right. This is when he was studying with Dungsan. But, no, this is what they mean by trampling everyone to death. This is what it's like, trampling everyone to... I don't know why they talk that way, but trampling everyone to death means... means enlightening everybody. It means enlightening everybody. Yeah. To death. It's a Zen phrase which means, you know, basically it means trample people's attachments and, you know, and self-clinging to death so that they're free. So this bodhisattvas then go out and trample everybody to death means they wake everybody up. I don't know why they talk that way, but they did.

[69:30]

That's the way they talk about it. That's kind of a prediction of somebody becoming a Buddha. There's an enlightened snake on the road there. Right. It's a kind of a stock, it's a kind of a house slang or something. Yes? The last run-through that, I can't remember his name, but from the point of view of the story, I really appreciated that. It's convinced me more than ever that the snake is dead, but it brings the story alive, so I... And so the way that it did that for me is when Ching Lin said, it's lost, suddenly, and this is sort of a question that might be tackled here or might not. The snake, does that, can that mean both the snake is fangless? In other words, the snake is lost? And can it also mean sort of an abandon all hope? sort of approach.

[70:36]

It suddenly became apparent to me that this could be taken in two utterly different ways, and so the historical story could be taken in two utterly opposite ways. And then also, you lose your life. Can't that be good? Did you hear his question, Andy? I think the Chinese just says, it's gone, it disappears. It says, which means... It just went away. It goes away. I think he's talking about the snake. In Chinese, they don't use subjects and objects very much, so they just throw verbs in there and they leave it to you to figure out what the verbs are about. But I think in this case, when it says it's lost, he's talking about the snake. Snake, okay. Can you compare with that? No. I mean, I concur with the grammar, but not the object that you put in there.

[71:38]

I try to take this concretely as possible. From the beginning when I've read this and I keep... What I think is missing is the opportunities missing. You lost your opportunity. You missed your chance. I'm still here. I'm still here, but you can't play with me anymore. So then you tell me... I think you're right. I think that is... In fact, that's the way I first read it. When I first read it, I was like that. So then you say, well, you know, where did you go? And I say, you can't find me. And then you say, you watch out. That's better, you know, like that. But I'm dead, yes? When I read this, the first thing I thought was that it was the snakeless self, that it was the student. Because when he's saying, when you go by the direct route, you know, so it's kind of like to go by, Nora was saying about practices, it's like the direct route is to drop the self.

[72:47]

You know, and so it's kind of like, he's kind of like saying this, but it's just a practice. And so he's kind of like, you know, in the commentary it said he's kind of bragging about this. You know, like, what about... you know, when you go by the direct route, you know, then what? Are you saying that going by the direct route means you're on the direct route of dropping the self? Yeah, so like he just dropped it. And so it's kind of like the last one where he's carrying, but he's still carrying it with him as his dropped self. And so then the teacher says, wait, there's a dead snake there. And so I was looking at this whole conversation as like this self, you know, like this self that kind of is there and not there, and when you look for it, it's kind of like invisible, and then it's like in the grass, and it's like the snake of self, kind of. And when Andy was saying it the other way, it's like, well, that's the same thing. The teacher is the self. So it's like different aspects of the self is the snake, and where do you find it?

[73:50]

It's like you try to get rid of it, and it stays, and you try to keep it, and it leaves, and... It's like this various versions of self, whether it's a kind of a pseudo-detached self of the student dropping the self and thinking it's really dropped when he's carrying the dropped self, or the teacher truly dropping the self. Either way, it's a dropped self. And in that sense, then the student can say, well, what about you, teacher? Even if it is a truly dropped self, It's still there somewhere. Yeah, or you don't have to give the teacher so much credit. Or you could give the teacher credit, but either way, the teacher is your dropped self. As you're nicely walking along the path of dropping the self, there's a teacher there that's your actual dropped self.

[74:52]

I don't want to step on that bed. No. You don't want to bump into your actual dropped self. So what are you going to do with your dropped self, Carol? Did you try to raise your hand, Carol? I called on you. I don't know if I have anywhere to go. I feel upset at this Maybe it started with what we said. Is the snake a misery? I feel upset that we're looking at words and saying these words can't be actual. It can't really be a snake. These words can't be what? Can't be literal. We're looking at the words the teacher says. Wait, wait, wait. I'm not saying the words can't be literal. Everyone's saying, I think the snake is the self.

[76:02]

I think the snake is this. Like we're taking... You can't see that. He's saying the words that draw a snake. And that the words a snake and the words a self are separated. are separating us from the words ascent. The words itself are separating us from the words ascent. Do you feel like they might separate us from the word snake? You don't like that. You don't want to be separate from the word snake. It's the word snake. That the teacher says the word snake is much more useful and wider because it could be what somebody says, or it could be what somebody else says, or it could be what somebody else says. Right. Yeah, right. Trying to nail down the metaphor. Right.

[77:04]

When, if you can somehow keep it as a snake, you're stepping on it, you're not stepping on it, because the words are stuck anywhere. Yeah. It can shift for you. Sure. It can shift, for example, over to being the self. It won't stay there. No, it won't stay there. Don't worry. It won't stay there. Because we already said it's not the snake, it's not the self, it's the teacher. It's not the teacher, it's the self. It's not that, it's a snake. It's jumping all over the place. It's in the dark, you know, really. This is in the dark, but we're just like going through the dark here, right? And so the word snake allows us to say it's a self or the other. It's the student, it's the teacher. It's obstruction, it's opportunity. So the word snake's nice for that reason. We won't lose track of that, don't worry. We're on guard here. It says in the instruction it has no country. Yeah, so we can go wherever we want.

[78:06]

But we won't forget the original name of the country. Snake Land. I won't tell you not to worry, though. Did I call on you yet? Sunchild? Anybody else for the first time? That I didn't call on yet? Sunchild? Well, when we were on the previous case, he kept saying that it was going to tie into this case. Yeah, I thought I already did tie it in. Didn't you see it? Come again if you would. Dead snake. This is all just, you know, what we're working here with is, what do you call it, karmic retribution. We have a world that's manifesting before us to work with here. Which we're grateful for, right?

[79:11]

We're willing to go into this dark room of this story and feel our way around. But everything we're working with is given to us. by our past karma and by the past karma of all beings. All the Buddha's and ancestors' lives have given us a story and our life has given us to be able to listen to it and work with it, to hear it, to read it, to see people in the room discussing it with us. This is all something that we're receiving now. You could, you could feel humiliated by this story. You could feel scorned and harassed and reviled by this story. It could seem like that. Or your comments and my response could seem like that. This is a reenactment, practicing the Diamond Sutra with this story, you see? That's one way it ties in. This is actually coming to you now as a big insult.

[80:14]

if you're practicing Diamond Sutra now, if you like this story, your practice is no good. Whereas if you hate this story, not hate the story, but if you feel totally tormented by this story, your practice is really great. And because your practice is so good, you will devote your life to understanding all about this story until the lights go on. What if the light just went on? Do I have to start over? Tell us about the light. I was trying to pick that up. Just shot into the grass there, didn't you? If I told you about it, you might revile me, and I don't want you to create too much karma. So we're going to have a break in our koan class now for one month?

[81:33]

Two months? Two months? More than two months. Yeah. So we'll start on this case. This is a wonderful poem. It's about rowing a boat in the dark. Okay, here's the image. You're rowing a boat in the dark. And on both sides of the river, okay, are snow. Okay, but it's not regular snow. What it is, is it's white flowers. Reed flowers on both sides of you. You're rowing in the dark. Huh? I don't know. Anybody know if reed flowers have a good smell? Chinese reed flowers? Anyway, they've got a lot of reeds with white flowers on the banks of the Chinese rivers. It's a big deal.

[82:34]

You're rowing. You're ferrying. You're a ferry person. You cross down the river with these banks, and your banks are white flowers, and you're turning, you're working this rudder, okay? And you turn around in the water. Then you don't know where you are. And it's dark. This is all happening in the dark. Okay? The white flowers are in the dark. The white flowers in the dark, yes. And you don't have to use your pole to push you along. The wind's blowing you along. And somebody's playing a flute, which brings the moon down. And it says, in this translation, it says, brings the moon down into the land of spring. Another translation is, bring the moon down, bring the moon down into sailing to paradise.

[83:44]

So, I meditate on this poem. And all these other people write poems on this case and pick up on the reeds in the water for some reason. They start echoing each other about the reeds in the water. So I don't know if you can go into that room, into that dark room with this furniture. bump into this furniture for two months, see what you come up with. We'll continue to study this case when we start the class again this summer.

[84:32]

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