a study day to study this koan, Nanjuan's cat. That story is going to be on one day study day on July 18th. July 18th. I think it's snitching. I think it's snitching. You can go to the verse now of case 58.

[01:21]

Are there any copies of it, Brad? I missed a couple. Not one. Many? Yeah. Just coming in slow. Anybody else think? One more back there. One more over here. Here. Would you mind sitting up here? So it goes like this. Continuous merit and fault. Inextricable cause and effect. Outside the mirror crazily ran yajna datta. With the staff, the oven breaker struck. The oven fell.

[02:23]

The spirit came to celebrate, only to be told he'd been turning away from his self. So there's a little commentary on the first part there. It says, merit is upholding scripture and fault is former karma. So we've talked about that quite a bit, that in the process of of reciting and studying and upholding the diamonds of scripture, that activity of studying this wisdom text and teaching it and taking care of it, that's inextricably bound with past karma.

[03:32]

It's not like you do, you know, study the perfection of wisdom scriptures and your karma is over there. Actually, the karma comes and is bound together with the activity of scriptural study. And the way that manifests is this remarkable way of the karma together with the scripture brings on revilement and scorn to you right while you're studying the scripture, right while you're practicing perfect wisdom. You get scorn. You draw scorn and humiliation. So we talked about that a lot. Then it says, next is cause and effect, inextricable. That's, you know, a lifetime discussion there. And then outside the mirror, crazily, Yajna Datta ran.

[04:36]

This is a famous story, which I think many of you have heard before. So it says in there what it is, right? You know, in China, and I guess in Japan too, the mirrors used to have, you know, two sides, right? Often one side would be decorated, maybe copper or bronze or something like that, and the other side would be polished. So one side would usually have some embossed design. And the other side would be smooth and maybe polished. So if you looked at one side, you could see your face. If you look on the other side, you don't see your face. So this guy picked up the mirror and turned it the wrong way one day and couldn't see his face and freaked out. And went running all over Varanasi. Was it Varanasi? No, it was... Srivasti. And running all over Srivasti, looking for his head until somebody... turn the mirror around for him.

[05:42]

Oftentimes they say, until someone told him he still had his head, but another way to understand it is somebody turned the mirror around, because that's probably why the story's here. Because that's what the next part of the story's about, is turning the mirror around. So this famous priest who got the nickname Oven Breaker went to this shrine, a shrine that had a furnace in the shrine where people could burn sacrifices to the spirit of the shrine. And this shrine and the oven itself was known to be, what do you call it, the actual oven was like haunted or inhabited by some troubled spirit.

[06:48]

There was a kind of negative energy around the kiln, and people had to keep feeding it, otherwise there was trouble. So this priest went there with some people one day and whacked the kiln three times and then said, you know, this thing is just composed of various elements, so where does the spirit come from? Where does the holiness or sacredness of this come from? And he whacked it again and the thing collapsed. And then this guy in green with a tall hat comes crawling out of the ruins and says, thank you for releasing me. But the priest says, it wasn't me that released you.

[07:49]

It was your own spirit, your own nature that released you, that you've been turning away from all this time. You're not beholding to me. You're beholding to your own nature. Like a godfather, you know. He says, how come you never came and talked to me before? You only come when your house gets broken. You never had to stay in that place. And then the final kind of comment that's sort of interesting is the guy who's given the comment goes,

[09:08]

Demons fearing evil men can hardly open their hands. Thieves relying on stolen goods can easily take the lead. Linda, here, you can sit up here. Since you're the last person, you can sit here. So we have some latecomers. We have Linda. Linda. And we have Mary. Mary. And Maheen. Maheen. And let's see, I think Samantha's back there. Samantha. It's her birthday today. Happy birthday to you. [...] And who else? And Aaron. And Stella. Stella was here.

[10:34]

Stella was here before? Yeah. She's really here now. Who else came in late? Is that it? We got to enter in. Is that it? Okay, so, so we first, you know, one of the ways we first went through this case and studied it, it's kind of from the point of view of explaining the mechanics of karma and also if you think about this teaching, it's a kind of, what do you call it, it's a vision of another way that the world works. And some people say, you know, talk about, well, you believe this or not believe this, or I don't believe this, but it's not so much, you know, like if you read the Lotus Sutra, you open the Lotus Sutra up and it tells you, it gives you these visions, you know, like Shakyamuni Buddha was sitting in a stupa and then was sitting on his chair and suddenly this this apparition of a stupa came up next to him and this Buddha was there, kind of faintly emanated Buddha there.

[11:38]

And the guy started talking and he said, well, I made a vow many lifetimes ago that when Shakyamuni Buddha taught the Lotus Sutra, I would reappear. This Buddha made that vow. And so now that you're taught, now that you're given this lecture on the Lotus Sutra, here I am. And so it's not so much do you believe that or not, but it's like whether you want to try on the vision of what it's like to see Shakyamuni Buddha teaching the Lotus Sutra and then have this other Buddha come up next to him and be there by his vow that he wanted to be there when the Buddha of many generations later would be teaching the Lotus Sutra, because the Lotus Sutra actually hadn't been couldn't be taught back in those days, so he wanted to be there when it was taught. Like I know the Zen teacher who, he had just a student and he said, I can hardly wait to die so I can be reborn and be your student.

[12:40]

I'm going to be such a good teacher. It's kind of like, not so much do you believe or not believe, but just try on, what world is that, if you think of that? So this is a world where when you're practicing, if you feel like you're practicing the Diamond Sutra, you're studying the Diamond Sutra, then you will be humiliated. Now, most people are humiliated, right? A few people aren't. Those people, I would ask, is anybody that's not being humiliated, are you studying the Diamond Sutra? I know some people, you know, don't feel that humiliated, but not too many people that don't feel humiliated think that they're actually, like, really practicing the Diamond Sutra intensely. Okay, that's just a vision, not just saying that when you really are practicing wisdom beyond wisdom, you will feel humiliated. And just think now, anybody that has ever practiced that extremely profound teaching...

[13:48]

Has that ever happened in the history of the world that somebody really practiced that and wasn't humiliated while they were practicing it? Do you know anybody that really was practicing that way and wasn't humiliated? And then, not only that, but that humiliation, because they were practicing, they didn't stop practicing it when they got humiliated, they kept practicing. The humiliation cleared their past karma they continued the practice, and now with their karma cleared and their practice undisturbed by the humiliation, they realized the Buddha fruit. It isn't that the humiliation is what makes you realize the Buddha fruit. It's the practice. But the practice, which goes with the realization, draws this... Karma. this humiliation. It doesn't draw the karma, it draws the result of the karma. The karma has already been done. All human beings have karmic backgrounds. Everybody's got karmic backgrounds.

[14:51]

That's not the problem. The problem is, let's mature this karma, let's mature it so that we don't have to wait around anymore for karma. Because you can't, you've got to keep hanging around waiting for it. until it's matured. So it will mature if you practice this way. So that's a vision of a world. So you can try on that vision, see what you think of that vision, and just see how it works for you. If you don't like it, hey, we've got some other visions for you. There's no shortage of visions you can try on, enter into. This is just one. How do you do it? How do you do it? You pull out the diamond suitcase and start... Yeah, that would... Read it. Read it. And read it out loud. It's good to read it out loud. And also so other people can hear you. That brings you to find them a little bit faster. They can hear you. You don't have to say it real loud and raucously just so the tone of your voice is what you're getting in trouble for.

[15:59]

You don't want to do it at work or something. That would be a good place to do it. But do it, actually do it with a nice, gentle, friendly voice, in a sweet tone, so that it's the words, so they hear the words, and the words would make them get upset, rather than, you know, that you're talking with a rough voice. Speak very sweetly and kindly with a good intention to benefit all beings, and deliver that message, and you'll get, well, you'll see what happens. Let us know. You know, okay? Yeah. And if you don't let us know, we'll know what happened to you. Susan? What is mature karma? What is mature karma? It just means that you, if you think you'd do something... then the consequences of you thinking that you do something is the results of you thinking you do something.

[17:00]

Everything you think you do will have a result. But I sort of got the sense of like a ripened, when you say ripened. Yeah, ripened, right. And many kinds of karma have three different types of fruit, or three different types of consequences. One happens in this life, one in the next, and one in the next type are just sprayed over many lifetimes. Some, you know, some very far distant ones. Okay? So, mature karma means that that act is like all those different types of karma that are collected. Not just the one in this life, but even the one in the next life has come brought forth, you know, ahead of schedule. How would you know that? How would you know that? Well... I mean, how would I know that? Well, you just... I guess you don't know it until you're a Buddha. I see. But if you are practicing and you feel like, hey, you know, here I am doing my best and my practice is going really well and I feel really encouraged by it and yet people are being cruel to me, and particularly they're even criticizing me for my practice,

[18:17]

Is there something wrong? And the diamonds, this is saying, no, it doesn't mean there's anything wrong with your practice. As a matter of fact, it means your practice might be going quite well. But you have done some things in the past based on the illusion that you can do things by yourself, so you have to pay the consequences of that deluded activity, and particularly in this case, to pay the consequences of deluded, unwholesome activity. which have reached its full trajectory of maturity, then it would be a very serious setback to your practice. But if you practice intensely, particularly the perfect wisdom type of practice, you can bring these fruits to maturity earlier. And then they get dissolved. They're completed. Those are. That's the idea. Okay.

[19:19]

But one thing I want to say here is that I want you to remember that this is the way we were talking before, all right? And I want to say that there's another dimension here that's raised by this next story. Okay? Another dimension of this case is brought up by this story of turning the mirror around, of the mirror, you know, of losing your head. In other words, the first part is about this remarkable teaching of the Diamond Sutra, which we've been discussing. All right? The next part of the teaching is about, in some sense, the fundamental problem that gives rise to karma in the first place. All right? The first part of the story is about practice perfect wisdom and also when you get in trouble, Understand that this trouble is not really trouble. It's actually... It goes nicely.

[20:22]

When you're practicing the thread of the sutra, you have this other thread of the karma being matured right along with it. This is not a problem. You shouldn't get upset about this. You actually should be... You should praise it. You should say, thank you for this stuff. Because it's maturing your karma right along with your practice. That's one kind of... teaching in this case the other kind I'd like to draw your attention to is going back to the situation in which we create karma in the first place is being brought up in this verse the place where we create the karma in the first place is when the mirror is turned around and we think we can't see our head anymore We can't see our face. We're walking around, we don't see our face. Looking, we don't see our face. Right? You understand? You look at the world and you don't see your face. Actually, your face is being reflected all the time, everywhere you are. But since you don't see your face, what do you do?

[21:23]

You freak out. And what do you do when you freak out? Karma. We do karma when we lose our head. We think, I don't have a head. In other words, you can't see your head. You get out of touch with your head. You get out of touch with yourself. Don't you understand, Catherine? You can say yes or no. So in other words, you're looking at me, you don't see yourself. Right? When you look out at the world and you don't see yourself, you freak. Normal human situation. You freak, you get scared, you get anxious because you don't see yourself. yourself out there. So then you start trying to manipulate and power trips, right? Karma. So the second part of the story is a little bit different than the first part of the story. The first part is like this wonderful teaching from the scriptures about how to understand what happens to you when you practice and how that can be a good deal and you keep practicing and don't get mad at the stuff that happens to you while you're practicing.

[22:33]

Matter of fact, say, this exactly, this goes with the practice. Thank you. The other part is a little bit different. This is like going back to the Diamond Sutra itself to point out that everything out there is yourself. And in this story, which is also about the same thing, about saving beings, okay, the activity of saving beings, which is the activity of one who has not been, you know, got the mirror turned around. So it's a little bit different, I think. That's why he says, you know, he says, what is it, what about for a Chan monk, after the after we've gone through this discussion, and he says, what about Vrachan monks? So, Vrachan monks, I'll give you these a little bit different. Okay? I'd like you to track these two dimensions of this story. In one sense, I would say, it's almost like, you know, have you ever heard in Zen, they sometimes talk about the ancestral Zen and the Tathagata Zen.

[23:42]

Or, you know, it's like the Zen of the tradition and the Zen of the scriptures. The Zen of the Buddha teaching, which is kind of the first part, and then the Zen of the actual lineage of what they used to call patriarchs, but now we call them ancestors. Okay? So there's two things going on, I feel, in this case. Why is there a difference? Pardon? What is the difference, or why is there a difference between the two? Well, what is the difference? Do you not feel the difference between the two? Pardon? One is, well, for example, one is in a scripture. All right? This is a story. All right? This is a koan. But this koan is a little bit different from some other ones because what the koan is, is the scripture.

[24:44]

Okay? And this scripture, hmm? Okay? So it's a scripture, and the scripture has this wonderful vision in it. It's kind of like a gate to a kind of vision. But then the later part has a story about the activity of a Zen monk, a Zen priest, who actually liberates a being by his discourse, by his interaction with the being. He liberates the being from its bondage in the, you know, as a spirit trapped in the troublesome inhabitation of the shrine. But then after he comes out, he gives him further instruction. So it's more like, in one case, it's like totally, it's a situation totally made up for the person on the spot. Okay? The other case is a famous quote from a famous sutra which everybody, we all, you know, can study that and learn from that.

[25:52]

There's another aspect of practice which is, what do you do for this person in this situation, or not even this person, what do you do for this demon or this spirit? It's more specific in a way, for this particular person's situation. How do you relate to this particular situation? and the other one's more general. General principle in the first part, a vision which you all can use. The second part is pointing out that there's another kind of function here, which is also tied into this story, that this guy brought, when Tien Tung wrote his verse to celebrate this case, he brought the story of Yajna Jata, and this oven breaker to bring in another dimension. Okay? So there's quite a lot of hands I saw there. They all went away. Anna? How could you also understand it like the other way around, that the usual way is that you always see yourself in everything?

[27:01]

and that you get crazy when you don't see it. And what he does is he turns the mirror around to show that this is just the mirror. I mean, this is just a picture, this is just an illusion. So, are you saying that you always see yourself in other people? Yes. I mean, that's the problem that creates this idea of ourself that we always carry. that we are a self that can act independently. That means that we project us on everything. So when the picture is not there, when we are not there, when we suddenly see we are not there, we get crazy, right? It's very frightful. Yeah, that could be a problem too. Then he turns the mirror around, and that's the relief.

[28:03]

But it's just this click, which for me just says, well, this is just a picture. So, do you know of some examples of where that happens to people, that they go crazy when they can't project their self anymore? Do you know stories about that? Do you have that experience? that it's a whole tradition of German Romanticism. You can't find that picture in the mirror that turns up everywhere. That's in German Romantics, you say? And then also in modern. But that's the other way, as you explained it, so I wonder if that's possible to see, I think it's always good to be able to turn it again, whatever the story is, to be able to turn it.

[29:03]

So it's fine to turn it again. Yeah. Yes. This rewoundment and scorn that is being talked about, is this related to, I once read that when you enter the path that you accelerate your karma? Yes. Okay. You've been gone for two weeks. Right? Right. That wasn't you last week. Thank you. Two weeks, weren't you gone? No. Okay. Well, you missed that last week. Yeah. That's right. Thank you. You got it. We talked about that. Okay. But studying the Diamond Sutra really accelerates it. I'm going to pick it up tonight. No, I haven't. Just read this part right here. Why are you only telling us this now? Right here. Read that. Where are the people in this case? Where is the teacher and where is the student and why is this case...

[30:11]

not the presentation between teacher and student. Why is the case not that way? I don't know. Kevin? I have something to offer. It might not be the answer, but it's an answer. In the world of answers, this is one. Okay, this is another one of those, this is like the other way of interpreting koans where this is like a direct case, I think, where this is the teacher and this is the student. Sort of like, I think Reb has talked about that, how our interpretations now are also part of that teaching. The way that we see the koan going on, the way that we see the story going on is part of that teaching. And so like, I think that this is just like, literally, that's the teacher, and this is the student.

[31:15]

There's the object, and there's the resistance. That's how I get to see it. I've had a lot of arguments in my head about, this isn't really a koan. It's like, you know... It's like the dinosaur man. Did you have further questions? I was feeling like it was about self and other dropping away. There were no self and other in this case. And that this was just an exploration of that. I mean, in looking for them, I didn't come up with what Kevin came up with, but it did feel rather empty of self and other. And then? When there's an emptying of self and other, then what happens? Enlighten.

[32:20]

No, you skipped something there. This particular description, if what you're saying is true, this particular description. Revolvement. Yeah, get some revolvement first. So if you keep studying this dropped off, self-othered, something dropped off, you'll probably get some revilement. Have you gotten any lately? So you just keep studying that and you'll get revilement and scorn and so on and so forth. And you start to become humiliated. By the way, this doesn't count if you get revilement and it doesn't humiliate you a little. It's kind of like work. It can't be like, you know, what is it? Well, I'm getting this, you know, and I'm grateful for it, and it's not bothering me. He's got to be grateful for the stuff that bothers you. It's okay to be grateful for the stuff that doesn't bother you, too.

[33:23]

Right. But, you know, guess what? Guess what, Helen? Guess. Are you gonna? No. Okay. Anybody else want to guess? What's the question again? If you're contemplating a teaching, if you're studying a teaching of self and other dropping away, which is the teaching of self, self as no self as it's taught by the Buddha, therefore we say self. Now it doesn't say self, self as no self as it's taught by the Buddha, therefore we say no self. that wouldn't be dropping off self and other. That would be like, you'd have like self and other and then you don't have self and other, right?

[34:31]

And then you say, don't have self and other. Then you got another self and other. You got self and no self. But no. You have self, self, has no self and therefore we say self. This is a teaching of no self and other. Now, if you practice that teaching and you study that teaching and you write that out on pieces of paper and you tell people about that teaching, okay? All right? then you get reviled. Now let's say you have some understanding of that, then you get reviled more. And you say, but then it won't bother you because you have an understanding of it, right? Right. But there are layers of understanding. You can go deeper and deeper. You can actually have a full-fledged dropping of belief in self and other and hold it at a deeper level. Right? Right? You can see through the self, the independent self of the person and drop that and still believe in the self of phenomena, of the dharmas that give rise to the self.

[35:38]

So the deeper level of selflessness is realized by being tested after realizing the first level of selflessness, being tested and having it get to you. and show you that you haven't got it there. And then to respond to that lovingly. That loving response, well, first of all you're practicing loving response, but now, even now, there's some more subtle level you continue to practice and it takes you to a deeper level. The person who's released at this first level it still actually counts, it still has consequence that they haven't released at the lower level. It actually still makes, you know, a difference. So, it still affects them. So, at a deeper level. Dori is next, and then Raj. I think so. That's what it seems like.

[36:39]

It'd be practice. Reviling yourself, scorning yourself, humiliating yourself, all by yourself, sitting out in the woods, no people around, you know, and you revile yourself. You say, you're insane to be out here studying the Diamond Sutra. This is crazy, you know. How are you ever going to get reviled? Huh? I was adding on to your... You're just kidding. Oh, I get it. If I don't get to jokes, tell me. My question was almost exactly the same. It feels like you're emphasizing, I'm wondering why you're emphasizing the outer revolvement so much. There's that comment from the Sixth Patriarch about the inner reality being the revolvement, the present understanding, the revolvement of karma, the past karma. And it feels like if you, whenever you read the Diamond Sutra, whenever you grasp the Diamond Sutra, you always, no matter how

[37:47]

Deeply you've understood it. It always, if you really are doing it, you're always looking at who you've been and reviling completely. And you don't need anybody else around. Yes, you do. But you're right. The inner process should be clearly articulated, so I appreciate the people who bring up that it's an inner process that has nothing to do with the people who are around you, that it's that there's various dimensions of inner revilement and inner humiliation. They're important, but you do need the outer. You need the outer. Some people are really good at inner revilement. They are really good at it. But still, there's ways that the outer can do it that they do not know how to do. And some people are not so good at inner revilement and so they need a lot... The outer is mainly where they get it. But some people are really good.

[38:49]

I mean, I'm amazed how... I mean, some people are really good at giving themselves a hard time around here. They're really good. And some other people are not and those people need... but the thing is that the thing that the thing that gets you what you need is a study if you study the Dhamma Sutra you'll get what you need you get it inside or outside you'll get it if you really practice sincerely you will get what you need to to mature yourself okay David it seems like it's kind of important to remember that you can get revived with it you might actually just be being a jerk. It seems like there's a trap in this teaching that you could just go, oh, this person is telling me that I'm really hurting their feelings. That's great. My practice must be going really well. No, no, no. Your practice is going well if people are criticizing you.

[39:51]

That is true. But what they're criticizing you for is not a dream. It's for something you actually did wrong. something that wasn't so skillful. That's what you're getting it for. But the fact that they're saying it to you and talking to you like that, that shows your practice is working. If your practice isn't working, what you do is you hurt people and stuff like that. You are a jerk. But you're such a jerk and you have so little practice that nobody even says anything to you. They just back away and say, give him space. Let him do it. Don't say anything to him. He'll murder you. So then you sit there and say, here I am being mean to people. Nobody says anything to me. Maybe I'm not actually mean to them. Maybe this doesn't really count. So I think you'd be meaner. Then they even say it's less to you. So you're just accumulating all this karma and you're not practicing and nobody says anything to you And you're heading for major practice hindrance, to say the least. When people criticize you, it's a sign that they think you're worth criticizing.

[40:55]

That's the thing about a lot of people coming to me and saying, I've been talking about praising life, right? People come and say, well, how can I praise so-and-so? How can I praise like, this person is so blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. How can I praise that person? I said, the fact that you are upset about that person is praising that person. The fact that you care that this person has a closed heart is praising them. If you really didn't care about them, you just say, oh, so what? But the fact that you're crying and that you're having trouble praising them the way you think you should be praising them, and you wish you really could praise your father, your mother, whatever, in that way, that is the praise right now. That's what it looks like. And if people praise you, they praise you because you're practicing. Because, you know, they still love you even though you're a jerk. And the way they manifest it is by telling you you're a jerk.

[41:58]

But you don't then say, well, I'm not a jerk. You say, actually, what they're saying to me is not the full extent of what I've done. It's just a message, it's kind of a metaphor for what I did. If your practice is really good, as I mentioned before, you actually get criticized for what you just did. If you really have a good practice and you do small things, small little errors, you get actually criticized for things you just did. But most people are getting stuff from long time ago. But it doesn't mean that it doesn't count. It just means that you're lucky that you're getting the feedback. And you get this luck because you're practicing. People that aren't practicing are not so lucky. So you need to listen. You need to listen. You've got to listen and not just be like hearing that there's noise and that it's criticism, so that's good. You need to listen. And the more it hurts, the better.

[43:00]

Okay. Because the more it hurts, the more it's clearing you. But, no matter how much it hurts, when somebody insults you, no matter how much it hurts, it's a good deal. You know? It's a good deal. Because you can feel it. When you're really in trouble, you can't even feel anything. You know, you're in such bad shape, you know, you just turn all the, all the, you just, you close your ears, you close your heart, everything. The fact is you can be touched in this way is really, you know, not that bad. The states of war situation where you can't even, you can't even like register that you're getting any revilement. You're just like totally, you're like not feeling the pain. You're afraid you're going to get more. You're not like registering this one and processing this one.

[44:01]

You're worried about how much longer this is going to go on. You can't even feel the pain. This is one example of a much worse situation than being in a situation where you can actually feel what's being done to you. This is good. This is like karmic maturity. Yes. How does the story of Yajna Datta and his mirror issues relate to the oven breaker? I mean, they follow each other just one line of the comb with a net, but I don't see the connection between those two. Well, one simple connection is that the oven breaker turned the mirror around for the guy. First of all, he turned the mirror around by his first discourse on the dependent core rising of the oven where he was trapped. And he broke the oven. So I see first he released him from this demonic possession. Then the guy comes and says, thanks. Thanks. And he says, you know, don't thank me.

[45:06]

The reason why you were there in the first place is because you were turning away from yourself. It's by, you know, I'm just a vehicle of your self-realization process. And the reason why you need this teaching is because you've been turning away from yourself all this time. So, it doesn't say then that this guy was enlightened, but this is the kind of teaching he's giving him. First he's releasing him from demonic possession and then he's teaching him as a normal human being with a funny outfit on. me that then what happens is that somebody turns the mirror around and shows him his face and his heel but that's not part of the story here is that just because everyone knows that story so well that they can just refer to the first part of it yeah it's a fairly famous story a lot of these poems are abbreviated

[46:12]

And then even the commentary is sometimes abbreviated, because Buddhism was pretty well known to the monks that were hearing these talks, that were reading this book. And then the teacher was given commentary to back up, because some of the monks maybe weren't educated in some Chinese allusion, so he'd tell them that. But there's some other things which he doesn't mention, which they supposedly all knew. But we may not know so well. Any other people that haven't spoken our questions so far? Well, the question that comes up in me right now, at this moment, is, this is about turning a mirror. How can I, or what would be turning the mirror in the face of karma, turning the mirror in the face of cause and effect? And so two meetings for me seem to be pointing in that direction.

[47:17]

The two meetings, the two levels are pointing in that direction? Yes. So do you have an answer to what it would be like? I don't have an answer, but... Do you have a question? Yeah, the fact that a quotation is being made into the case in the story seems to be very important in that context. A quotation of what? Here, like the diamond, again, the diamond-colored scripture made into a case. Yes. Because it seems to be as if Let's say that the diamond-cutter scripture as an outside thing, object, a scripture, something that was being produced in religious discourse long ago, that act has common consequences. And the common consequences appear right here. The scripture being quoted That's, in a way, consequence.

[48:21]

It's appearance in this world. So there seems to be a huge dimension in time. That's the way I usually think about karma. And also the way we chant in the morning on my ancient, twisted karma. Huge way. But... But I don't really understand this. But at the same time, here, it is, as I said, cause and effect were falling to one. Because it's still the diamond kind of scripture which comes up. So time seems to really implode. it seems to be related to like here in the text it also says what's the previous what's the age what's am I missing a word what is all my ancient twisted karma it's nothing but the previous moment

[49:45]

And that seems to be, like to practice that, it seems to be turning teaching on cause and effect. What's happening, Linda? I was just thinking of effect permeating cause. The effect permeating cause? And it didn't collapse soon, before shortened. How are you?

[50:50]

Hustled and also embarrassed. But I think there's a point there which hasn't come up in our talk yet. Why I haven't heard it. Has it come up now? Have you spoken it? For myself, I'm more asking for it, and asking for it to come, for this part to come up. You're yearning for a point that hasn't come up yet? That's me. Could be rising right now. Yes, John?

[52:43]

I still don't understand what that special something is about the Diamond Sutra as opposed to other Buddhist text sutras, which causes karma to accelerate. I don't think this is only true of the Diamond Sutra. But you had mentioned earlier that if you did study the Diamond Sutra, the karma acceleration would happen faster than... than other sutras? Did I misunderstand you? I may have said that, but I think that some other sutras would even happen faster. We'll get some suggestions. I think the Lotus Sutra is like that, too. I think you get a similar type of thing happen to you if you study the Lotus Sutra. You'll get a similar type of thing will happen internally and externally. I think the sutras that are pitched at a very high level, like the Lotus Sutra, the Diamond Sutra, other Prajnaparamita Sutras, these sutras, I think, bring that on more than more introductory scriptures.

[54:04]

So I think some do bring it out more, but there's a lot of them that do this. And I think the Perfect Wisdom Sutras and the Lotus Sutra do it. And I think, you know, that's my feeling, that those two particularly. That's a whole class of teachings. And I think studying Zen koans brings it on, too. But some teachings are a little bit, what do you call it? It's a little easier to hold on to your seat in some teachings. They don't push you so hard to let go. As the perfect wisdom scriptures say, they are not so threatening at the beginning.

[55:14]

But the Dhamma Sutra gets threatening very quickly, threatening our usual idea of the way things work, our usual logic of the way the world works, a little faster. But it's not just the Dhamma Sutra. Yes? Yes? The story about Yajna Datta kind of felt a little one-sided. It seems like there's another side to it, too, in that Yajna Datta is someone who is accustomed to seeing himself in anything he looks at. And so when the back of the mirror, like if something's different, then that's a shock. But it could be too that there's maybe someone who doesn't want to look in the mirror at all and is accustomed to seeing different or just wanting to see difference all the time. And then suddenly that would turn around. So it seems like that's I don't know.

[56:16]

I'm not sure. I thought about what we chatted in the morning, difference in sameness. That sounds a little bit like what Ana was saying. You kind of make a similar point to what you said. Melissa? I feel good to speak because I was reading this during Surya today and the only sentence that struck me was, the awake mind at the succeeding moment scoring for the rooted mind at the previous moment. Say that again. The awake mind at the succeeding moment scoring for the rooted mind at the previous moment. Uh-huh. That's kind of what Raja is saying, right? Right? It's sort of what you're saying. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. But it was also what I was thinking of when Brent was talking and I was realizing that the reaction that was happening was amusing that I'm so terrified to speak awkwardly.

[57:21]

What was the reaction? What was the reaction? I don't know, like, of awkwardness and kind of like something happened, you know, that didn't feel like interchangeable. So you're afraid to talk because of some possible blankness or awkwardness following what you say? Or embarrassment or revilement. Embarrassment or revilement, right. So you're afraid that your practice would be good enough to get some revilement. . Or you're afraid that your practice isn't good enough to get revilement, and you just get... Revilement. That would probably be the fear. Well, I think we could do a little survey now. How many people share Melissa's concern?

[58:23]

What is this survey? It's a survey on how many people are sometimes a little bit afraid of what will happen if they speak in the class. LAUGHTER Okay. Maybe some people didn't raise their hand. Okay. Did you raise your hand? I didn't see if you raised your hand. He didn't see? What's the question? Eric? Eric? I have another question. Speaking about Barrett's question, what does the turning of the mirror have to do with his teaching of karma? Maybe I'm getting the karma stuff wrong, because I find that when causality and karma cross, it becomes very difficult to think about. But it seems to me that in the moment of the fruition of karma, of revival or any other negative karma, in a certain sense, the presence of the unwholesome act of the past is present again, and one feels pain from it, one feels the darkness of that.

[59:38]

And yet... we flip that around and we have in that moment the opportunity of realization and letting go of that whole past act, which is just the line that Melissa had read about, the thought of one moment. When the awake mind of the succeeding moment scorns the deluded mind of the previous moment, we see that flip. So at the moment of the fruition of our karma, we're in the presence of our own bad action and yet the flip side of that very same experience that is that opportunity for awakening so for me that that non-dual moment where the arising of a of a karmic result is both painful and liberate is that that turn because if you don't make that turn then all you see is the arising of the of the pain all you all you experience is the is the dark result but if you turn it you turn the mirror then in that very moment in that non-dual moment you you have the space for an awakening so that's a stat uh so baron is that kind of what you're relating to you're driving towards

[60:54]

That's why I said a stab. But I have a question as well. It doesn't have to be a stab at what Barron said. It could just be what you feel. No, I actually didn't even think that I was responding to what Barron said. It was just what he was saying that set me in this direction. Do people follow what he just said? Yeah. Huh? Yeah. You didn't, Susan? Is your name Susan? How many Susans are there in this room? Five. Are there five? Yeah. People who were born around the late 40s and 50s were a very popular name. Yeah. All right. Okay, let's see. There was somebody else with a new person. Elena? Yes, there's a word, scorn, that the newly awakened mind scorns the previously deluded mind. Yes. And I feel that if there's an awakening, shouldn't that produce more compassion and scorn?

[62:05]

Maybe it's a minor point. Oh, yeah, I see what you mean. Well, it's not necessarily a lack of compassion, it's more like, let's say, I see some activity that I did in the past... Which at the time, I may have thought, you know, that wasn't so cool. All right? But as I become more awake, I see more how uncool that was. All right? That's a kind of scoring. It's that kind of thing. To see more fully how much of a waste of time, wasting time is. And really feel, gee, that really was a waste of time. and really kind of feel the bitterness of that wasteful use of my life. That's not necessarily separate from compassion. Right, but it's not judgment either. Huh?

[63:06]

It's not judgment. Well, it's not like judgment, like you're a bad person. It's more like saying, that was really a waste of time, and at the time maybe I had some sense it was a waste of time, I didn't feel too good about it. But then later I may feel, oh, I see more the extent of how foolish that was. And that can be, that can be coming along with compassion, saying, yeah, that was, you know, I really, I really, I was really foolish. I understand now. I did that because I didn't understand as well as I do now. What a waste of time that was. But now I see. Like, you know, what came to my mind is just some of the things we've eaten in our past. You know? Some of the food we've eaten, which wasn't that good, actually. And now we wouldn't eat it. And at the time, we didn't think it was that good, actually, even. But now we realize how bad it really was. And we kind of feel, in some sense, some compassion for how stupid we used to be to put that stuff in our mouth without even thinking about what it was or what it tastes like, and do quite a bit of it, actually.

[64:14]

Now we say, yeah, but it really was unenlightened of me. But also feel some compassion for the poor little young person that we were. And hoping that that person has grown up now and will actually utilize this new wisdom more and more fully. So that feeling of compassion can go away with the sense of, that was a big mistake. And now I realize how big it was. And it feels good in a way to realize how big a mistake it was. You feel kind of like serious in a good way, kind of like, hey, it's okay to be kind of serious about this. That was really kind of a good seriousness about, you know, that wasting time is really a serious matter. which goes with, this is really a great opportunity to do something that's not a waste of time.

[65:18]

So there's a dynamic there that can be quite healthy. And this kind of scorn is not a small-minded scorn, actually a big-minded scorn. Martha? Is there a way, I mean, you're being reviled or humiliated or someone's studying the Dhamma Sutra, And you just take it. I mean, you feel it, you're hurt by it. You take it. There's almost a sense of submission to it and being silent in the face of this being reviled or scorned. There's some way in turn where, in the conventional sense, that you turn to the person who's reviling you and do them a turn by saying, wait a second, you're all face. I mean, where... What is the karma of the person that's doing you reviling? Or is that not really an issue? It is an issue. In the practice period we discussed this, that it may appear that the person who's doing you this, who's being the vehicle for the maturing and the resolution of your karma, that they're doing this favor for you while they're going down by reviling you.

[66:35]

They could, in a sense... this may not be good for them to do this favor to you. For them to be saying stuff like, you know, it's really stupid, this thing, this diamond switch is really stupid and you're stupid for chanting it. That's not necessarily good for them. And so, you might feel compassion for them and feel sorry that they have to do this, but you can't stop them either. Yeah. Can't really stop them. They have opened their mouth and said this critical, insulting thing to you. They have hurt you. And they meant to do it, and they were successful. And sometimes you... Oh, yeah, no, no, no, no. You should definitely not get angry back. Definitely not get angry back, because that will create... The most important thing is you won't... you won't appreciate what's going on. Second, you'll just generate more karma. And also, you'll make a break in your practice of the Diamond Sutra, or whatever it is that you're practicing so good that this is happening.

[67:43]

Don't get angry at this person, but rather be compassionate to them because you understand that they're doing this thing for you and realize that you should praise them. You should praise them. Not praise their revilement, but praise them because they're helping you. They're part of the way the world's helping you process your karma. It's coming in a helpful way now. In a way that you can understand, this is helpful. This is good for me. Unfortunately, they may be actually, in their own mind, thinking, I'm doing this and I mean to criticize this person. So you need to help them and care about them and be sorry maybe that they have to do this. This is something, a practice you can take in whatever you're doing in your life. Yes. You're cooking soup, somebody could... Yes. And again, people won't criticize you for cooking soup if your practice doesn't have some merit. It's getting the criticism, show it, you know, is maturing your karma.

[68:49]

Karma does not come in such nice packages unless you're practicing pretty well. Being insulted by people for whatever you're doing is a nice karmic result. Very nice. You can deal with it. You can learn from it. You can appreciate it. There's other forms of karmic result which are so heavy that you have almost no ability, unless you're really enlightened, to use them and to stay awake and respond to them in a positive, alert way. Is it one way of saying how the self arises when you're unjustly accused? I mean, is that one of the teachings that come from this? How the self arises when... Noticing that? No, this is different. That is an important event, when you're unjustly accused, okay?

[69:50]

Unjustly accused means you're being accused of something which you didn't do, okay? And if you don't understand that when you're being accused of doing something that you didn't do, in fact, let's say you didn't do it, you don't think you did it, that's not the karma you thought you were involved in and you're not completely crazy, and then the self arises then. That's in the case where you're not practicing the Diamond Sutra. Because instead of saying, oh, this is my karma maturing, you get into thinking whether or not this was an appropriate insult So if you're being insulted for whatever, and you think, well, this isn't appropriate, I'm practicing Dhamma Sutra, I shouldn't be being criticized when I'm doing this wonderful spiritual practice, then you're slipping away from realizing, no, this is a maturing of my karma. This is not like some random act of violence. This is a maturing of my karma. And then it's an occasion for not only practicing Buddhism, But practicing Buddhism and then maturing my karma in this good way, this easy, light way, which I can then continue to practice with, doesn't knock me off the map of practice.

[71:06]

So not only is it maturing in this form because of my practice, but I continue my practice as it's maturing because it's so easy to continue it. rather than saying, this isn't quite the kind of refinement I should be getting. Now, I have done some bad things, but this is not the way it should be coming. I certainly deserve some criticism for some things, but not this one. It's not... The way it's working, this vision of the way it's working is not necessarily that it's fair the way it's coming, but that it's appropriate to your practice. You're being given an appropriate opportunity now to practice rather than like it's the one you think you deserve. And to get angry is a big, big mistake because you have a big opportunity so you're wasting your time getting angry. John? I don't know how other people in the class feel, but I can't help feeling...

[72:07]

It sounds kind of magical to me in a way that I find that's for me uncomfortable because I don't really know what this catalyst is that's ripening this karma. You're doing some good wholesome practice and as a result of this good wholesome practice this karma whatever your past actions were that were unwholesome come to fruition yes i don't really see what what this you know how this mechanism really works right doing something well and you can get these bad things that are happening to you yeah i don't see it right it's hard and i appreciate you saying that you don't see it because probably at least one other person in the class doesn't see it So that person probably feels grateful to you right now. This process, the Buddha said, you know, there's various things that are inconceivable and that you can't understand prior to enlightenment. And one of them is the actual working of karma, how it actually works.

[73:09]

How your karma-dependent core arises is inconceivable. And yet Buddhas understand this, but they don't understand it conceptually. They just say, this is how it works. Because of their awakening, they become mouthpieces, and they can tell you how it works, but they didn't figure it out conceptually. Because it's inconceivably complex, dependent core rising. So you won't be able to understand how this works. You can't figure it out. It's rather the Buddha's telling you that this is how it works. And if you try that on, you will become a Buddha, and then you will understand. And then you will be able to tell others with more conviction than you can now that when this happens, what they've got to do is not get angry, but keep practicing. Stay on the practice beam. Don't get distracted by scorn. And then watch and see. Although you can't understand how this happens, you can see, you can verify, I think, that when this stuff happens and you don't get angry, you can feel this stuff gets processed.

[74:17]

You can feel cleared And if you keep practicing, you can realize wisdom. And as your wisdom becomes more and more developed, you can actually then speak this teaching from your own conviction. Jenny, and Sway, and Aaron, and Jonathan, and Barbara, and these are the first-timers. You're talking about being reviled and being humiliated while you're studying, and somehow it seems that the revilement is also a correction? One of the ways to take it is to say thank you, or whatever, to appreciate being on a job.

[75:18]

But also, you haven't mentioned that the person on the Buddha path changes. Are you saying that another interpretation is that it's an instruction to you? Yeah. That's not revilement, that's instruction. But sometimes the revilement is not instruction. You're not doing it wrong. You're doing it right. But sometimes you're doing it wrong. But that doesn't have to come in the form of revilement. A teacher can come up to you and say very sweetly, Jenny, you are a great student and you're doing this wrong. And you say, oh, how so? And you say, this is the way to do it. If you do it that way, your eyes are going to get poked out. If you do it this way, you'll be fine. But this is really a harmful way to do it. This is not the harmful way to do it. But that does not necessarily revile me. It can be very sweet and kind. You feel it's instructing.

[76:18]

You immediately feel grateful. And you don't have to hear this thing about the Diamond Sutra. You just immediately feel thanks. We're talking about when it's not appropriate. When you haven't done anything wrong, you're doing the right thing. And then you get it. It's not, you know, you're being falsely, inappropriately scorned. You're doing a good thing and you're getting harassed. So, there are cases where you're getting instruction, but this is not that case. This is a case where what you're getting is a reminder of the teaching, namely, hey, I'm processing karma, this is not to get angry about, and also, this is a signal, it's an instruction in the sense of, remember, keep practicing. Every bad thing that happens to you, the message is, keep practicing. Don't like, when something bad happens to you, say, oh, practice is no good, so now I'm... No. The reason why these bad things happen is because we weren't practicing at one or two moments in the past.

[77:23]

And insult and revilement are for minor things we did wrong. Big things, you get more than just revilement. This is for, you know... Excuse me, I take that back. I take it back. Even big things could come in this form when they're foreshortened. Okay? So I think this is a little bit different. But instruction is another part of the story. I don't know who was next. The new people, Sway and Aaron, yes? I had a question about the kind of karmic effects of inner revilement, because you've talked about, people have talked about what revilement can do inside, but it's also been talked about the person who reviles, you know, what that karmic... Okay, if internally you look at yourself and you want to hurt yourself, and you want to criticize yourself, and you think you're doing it, then you're creating more karma. But if it's this other kind of revilement, which is the enlightened thought, the enlightened later thought scorns the earlier thought, that's not karma.

[78:29]

That's just a vision of a waste of time. Just like, oh, that was a mistake. Oh, that was a mistake. Oh, that was really a mistake. Wow. Boy, was that terrible. Jeez, I'm so sorry. You can both scorn and feel sorry for yourself. It's just a clear judgment of a waste of time. That is not karma. Now, if you make it into, I want to go around, I want to say these bad things to myself and criticize myself and hurt myself, stuff like that, then, of course, you are... that's bad karma. And you can do bad karma to yourself. And, of course, not only do you hurt yourself right away, but then it creates major problems later for what you do to yourself. But you can do this to yourself, this enlightened mind... can scorn the earlier mind without it being a karmic act. But it's hard for external people to do that unless they're quite awake, because they have to generate the thought and convert it into speech, and they're probably going to get into, I'm going to do this, and they really do think there's something wrong with the person, and they want to tell them that, and they may not be telling them with this sense of, I want to benefit them.

[79:43]

Now, if they do really feel it that way, then they're not getting hurt. But even what, regardless of their motivation, we shouldn't get angry at them. Even if they're trying to help us, we shouldn't get angry at them. It seems like often with inner revilement, there's, whether it's kind of work or work, there is this kind of intention to improve, you know, like the part that's reviling or there's an intention to improve. There's an intention to improve. reviles or judges in order to somehow push the other part into acting... No, no. That's not the enlightened attitude. That's... If you're trying to improve, that's more karma. Trying to improve is one of the things we waste our time doing. And that's the kind of stuff that we then... that revilement will purify us from all the past self-improvement trips we've been on. practice the Diamond Sutra and you're going to get a lot of hassle for all the times you tried to improve yourself.

[80:44]

But if you accept these, then you get clean from your past self-improvement trips. But I just want to tell you what I was laughing at is that up where I live there, you know, at Spring Valley, you know, I live with this woman who reviles me all the time. It scorns me. You got a good deal, huh? Sounds like you got a good deal. I sometimes forget, I must admit. And I sometimes kind of, it's almost like a mock complaint, you know, that I'm being harassed and insulted and humiliated. I sometimes kind of pretend like that. But she always says, but you're thriving in... It really is good for you. You seem to be really doing well. So anyway, it's true. I'm really thriving in this harassment and revilement. It's really good for me. But she's not going down from it because she knows it's for my own good.

[81:49]

This is enlightened later mind. Aaron, Aaron, Aaron, yes? Are you still... Yes? Yeah. I just... I've been thinking about this after class, and I kind of have this kind of weird sense in my... I keep coming back to these two sentences, or two sentences, that seem to kind of speak to how I feel about this space. This is missing the real and clinging to the illusory. When real wisdom appears, illusory karma vanishes, and unexcelled enlightenment is already inherent. This is the middle of the true teaching. And I guess... In part, understanding the meaning based on the scriptures at the end, we have to live all times. And when Bert then brought up the part at the second part about speaking in terms of inner reality, that to me seemed more like a sort of kind of the gem or the... And there's something very vibrant there for me. And I don't know if I keep... I've just been talking about aspects of revilement and endurance and working me through and reflecting back on the feedback that people give me, but it seems it's like taking the case a little too literally in some way.

[83:00]

Because, I mean, that's basically what it says in the case. If someone is reviled by others, it shows them the other way around. And so I don't know if we'll continue with this, but I'd like to hear more about... Well, that's speaking to the wisdom which is the Buddha fruit, okay? So that's really the point. But this is saying, on your way to that point, on your way for that realization that karma is really an illusion in the first place, it's based on illusion, this whole thing is illusion, on your way to realizing that, if you should happen to get any revilement. That's part of the way to that point. You shouldn't think, you shouldn't get distracted by, for example, if you even start talking about this Buddha fruit prior to realizing it, you will get some revilement. People will say, you know,

[84:00]

Well, they'll revile you for even talking about that karma is an illusion. They'll say, you're an irresponsible airhead, and so on. You know, you Zen Buddhists think you're so hot, free of karma, who do you think you are, blah, blah, blah, blah, you know. And they'll say it to you in such a way that it'll hurt you. But that's part of your way to realizing that very fruit, which if you talk about it or read about it, and speak about it and write it, okay? You'll get reviled until you get to the place where you can have that fruit, but it won't be just like, you know, an irresponsible thing. You will have paid your price, your karmic price, and you will also not be involved in karma anymore. But you have to go through paying the price for all the karma you did before, before you're ready to, like, have that fruit. Even though what's like that? Yes, even though it's like that, in that moment you have to work with the revilement and not be disturbed by the revilement.

[85:13]

In that moment, where the revilement comes and the Buddha-fruit is realized at the same moment. You could wake up right while you're being reviled. Yes. Well, one understanding of a long, long time ago is, you don't understand, in terms of your understanding, you don't understand what the inconceivable causes and conditions of this thing manifesting right now. You don't see it. So that's what it meant by ancient karma. Because you can't understand it. You can't understand how you got to be so lucky to be who you are right now. And also how you got to be so lucky to receive this environment.

[86:15]

You can't see all that. that inconceivability of that that's happening in this present moment. So then we say past karma. It's actually illusion that there's past, or that there's future, or that there's present. It's all illusion. But if you fight with that, any aspect of the manifestation of illusion, if you don't accept it and praise it, then it shows you don't actually understand that it's illusion. And then you get another slap, another chance. So this is just saying, if you want to tune into this dimension of inconceivable and liberation, where you're liberated in past, present and future, if you want to tune into that realm of understanding that all this hindrance is really an illusion, it's just a dream, you're actually completely free, if you want to tune into that, then in the process of tuning into that, you probably will have to get purified of some karma. In the process of purification, we'll keep testing you to see if you really want to tune into that, or if you want to fight back. And if so, you're slipping off the ball again.

[87:20]

So I appreciate there's lots of questions, but I also appreciate that people don't want to have class go late, so I'd like to stop. Now, this class has now happened six times, I believe. And that's the number of classes. But if most of the people want to come back next week, I'll have class next week. So how many people can't come back next week? How many people can't come back next week? How many people won't come back next week? How many people will come back next week? Okay, so we can have a class next week. Do you want to do more on this one or do you want to go to the next one? How many people want to do more on this one? How many people want to go to the next one? It looks like it's about half and half. So why don't you start studying the next one, and we'll spend maybe the first half an hour on this one, and then go to the next one. Those of you who did not raise your hand for the next one, I think if you look at the next one, you might get interested.

[88:30]

It's kind of interesting. And of course, it perfectly follows from this one. Do I have a copy of it? No, but if you want to come up here and copy it down... You can write it down in your thing. Let's do it. I'll just wait. Okay. All right. Thank you very much. Thank you. You're going to have a good time.

[88:51]

@Transcribed_UNK
@Text_v005
@Score_83.7