So, should we study case 58 tonight? The introduction says that understanding the meaning based on the scriptures is the enemy of the Buddhas of all time. But deviating one word from the scriptures is the same as devil's talk. Does someone who is not included in cause and effect still experience the result of actions or not? That's pretty straightforward.

[01:02]

The case follows from this. This is from the Diamond Sutra. The Diamond Cutter's scripture says, if someone is reviled by others, this person has done wicked deeds in previous ages and should fall into evil ways. But because of the scorn and revilement of people in the present age, the wicked deeds of past are dissolved. Now, someone might say that this statement is generally true, but this actually has a context. And the larger context is that in the previous section of the Diamond Sutra, the Buddha says to Subuddhi that the spot of earth, the place on the earth where someone would... where this sutra is revealed, this Diamond Sutra is revealed, and...

[02:26]

that spot of earth will be worthy of worship. Just the place on the ground where the sutra is revealed is worthy of worship by the entire world of humans, divine beings, and fighting demons. It's worthy of being saluted respectfully. It's worthy of being honored by circumambulation. It's worthy of being a place, it should be a place for ceremonial offerings. It's like a shrine, that spot of earth. And yet, sabudhi, those sons or daughters of good family who will, on such a spot, take up this very scripture. this diamond scripture, and will bear it in mind, recite and study it, they will be humbled in mind.

[03:43]

They will be humbled. They will be well humbled. And how? Because the impure deeds which these beings have done in former lives, and which are liable to lead them into states of woe, in this very life, they will, by means of that humiliation, annul those impure deeds of former lives, and they will reach the enlightenment of a Buddha. So, it says, you know, wicked deeds of the past are dissolved, and you can add, and they will reach the enlightenment of a Buddha. So, in some sense, the first level of the scripture of this case is offering a kind of a certain kind of teaching which is, in one sense, quite straightforward, in another sense, inconceivable.

[04:52]

As a matter of fact, the sutra goes on to say that the Buddha says, in past lives, you know, I I served various Buddhas, like 84,000 lifetimes I've served Buddhas, and they were all satisfied with my service. And the merit of that, of course, is very large, the service of so many Buddhas, such satisfactory service is very meritorious. But the merit of that is not comparable at all to the merit of studying this scripture. especially studying the scripture now, under these circumstances of the world today, and then too. So to study the scripture and to uphold the scripture and to recite it and take care of it, the merit of that type of activity is so great that when beings hear about it,

[06:01]

they would become frantic and really confused, hearing how immensely great the merit is of reciting the scripture. So the scripture is a scripture on the inconceivable truth. and the practice of the scripture and the results of studying the scripture are also inconceivable. And yet, we can talk a little bit about the teaching here, and that there's a basic principle that all actions have some consequence. However, the consequence is not deterministic according to Buddhist teaching. It's not indeterminate and it's not deterministic. It's a dependent co-arising. Dependently co-arises, the action dependently co-arises and the consequence dependently co-arises.

[07:08]

So, if one is practicing, generally speaking, that foreshortens the maturation period of unwholesome activity. Another basic non-deterministic... principle of karma is that not only does karma have result, but the longer it takes for it to mature, the more interest it accumulates. So an unwholesome act that goes on, that doesn't mature over a long period of time becomes a very large unwholesome consequence. Unwholesome acts that are foreshortened from their full possible range of maturity the results are then lessened. And they're lessened both in terms of maturation time and also in terms of the context in which they come to fruit.

[08:10]

So if something unskillful is done, and would naturally lead to various unfortunate results. If one practices, one brings the result to maturity earlier. Plus, if you're practicing when the result comes, if not only you're practicing to bring it early, but you're practicing when it arrives, now it is that it happened earlier and less, but your reception of it is better. Now, if you're practicing the Diamond Sutra, for example, you bring the result to you in this life, rather than many, many lives more. You bring it to you, bring all those possible future maturations to you, to come to you in this life. Plus, since you're practicing, when they come to you, you receive them well. So you get them less, they come sooner, smaller, and you're better able to work with them. As a matter of fact, you can work with them in such a way that while working with them, you realize unsurpassed, correct, and complete awakening.

[09:19]

That's what this scripture is talking about here. And the nuance in the different translations from Chinese and Sanskrit are a little different. This one says, The Sanskrit says, if you practice this scripture, if you bear it in mind, recite it, and study it, you will be humbled. And you will be well humbled if you study this scripture, this Diamond Scripture. And by means of that humiliation, you will realize the Buddha fruit. The Chinese says, more like, If, while you're reciting the scripture, people revile you and humiliate you, then your deeds will be dissolved. The consequences of your disease, your karmic deeds will dissolve. In other words, they won't dissolve like nothing will happen, but they will be they will be dissolved by the thing of being reviled and accused and insulted and disdained.

[10:28]

By that activity, they will be dissolved because that will be the resolution of these deeds. So if you're practicing the Diamond Sutra, if while practicing the Diamond Sutra this happens... then because it happens while you're practicing the Diamond Sutra, these things will be dissolved and you will attain the Buddha fruit. The other one says, if you practice the Diamond Sutra, this will happen. It's very different. Maybe not an important difference. So this text is saying that without any doubt, definitely, if you bear this scripture in mind, study it, copy it, and recite it for others, you will without doubt realize Buddhahood. And this is, you know, the social consequences of this, people might want to ask some questions about, but basically this is saying

[11:39]

First of all, it's saying if you're practicing this scripture and anybody gives you any trouble, you should basically say thank you to them because they are dissolving your karma and setting up your enlightenment. So if you're practicing this scripture, no matter any insult you get, you definitely should never get angry at the person. It's not appropriate to get angry at them because they're helping you. They're being a vehicle for your karmic freedom and for your enlightenment. If you've been, you know, like one Tibetan verse says, may I learn how In a case where I've been very kind to someone and been totally devoted to them and given them my very best attention, but they would turn around and attack me viciously, may I learn to understand them as my greatest teacher.

[12:43]

And people say, well, what about all these abuses and injustices in the world? But this is talking not about other people's injustices. This is talking about injustices to you. This is talking about that there aren't any injustices to you when you're practicing. When you're practicing, there's no injustice anymore. Now, what about people who aren't practicing? We can talk about them later. But for you, who are practicing, no matter what cruelty is inflicted upon you, it's not an injustice. And particularly, these minor things, like people being mean to you and reviling you and humiliating you those are definitely because your practice is good. Okay, so there were a couple questions from the peanut gallery, yes? Yes?

[13:48]

I'm sorry, I just, there was this distinction between the two, the slight difference between what the two scriptures are saying. Yeah, right. One is saying, that if you practice this scripture, if you study it and so on, I'm one of these, in this shrine place, this place that's worthy to be a shrine, if you do that, you will be humiliated. And by means of that humiliation, the karmic results of your past deeds will be annulled. and you will attain the Buddha fruit. The other one says, if while you're practicing this, you get insulted and so on. If that happens, then the same thing. Yes. When you said practicing the Diamond Sutra, did you mean just reciting it, or did you mean actually practicing the Diamond Sutra?

[14:53]

Well, actually any part of it. Reciting it, copying it, holding it up for other people, reading it, trying to figure out how to practice it. All these kinds of efforts. The place where these efforts are made is like a shrine, and you're practicing in such a place. All those count. And of course, the more you do it, the more infinite the infinity of the goodness of this stuff is. That's what it's saying. And if you practice this way, you will be, you will be, you know, humiliated. Yes? In your experience, have you found this to be true? Yes. But, you know, some people might say, well, you're not humiliated because you practice the Dhamma Sutra, you're just humiliated because of your past evil deeds.

[15:57]

But that's why everybody's humiliated, according to this. It's just that the Dhamma Sutra... brings on that kind of humiliation rather than the other kind the other kind of humiliation is not really humiliation it's these states of woe there are situations where you where you hardly are even humiliated because you're not even like aware of your potential you can't even hear the buddhist teaching that's real that's That's the real bad thing to happen to you, that you'd wind up someplace where you wouldn't even hear the teaching. That's like much worse than anything can happen to you when you've got the teaching. Because if you've got the teaching in your life, no matter how bad things happen to you, if you understand what the teaching is saying about them, then these things happening to you are liberating you. I think I've been more reviled and humiliated since I've been practicing than before.

[17:08]

I think so. By quite a large, you know, what do you call it? Order of magnitudes? Or order of magnitudes larger? Actually, the amount of revilement that I'm receiving, I don't even know about at all, probably. But if I practice harder, I think I'll know more of it. Yes? I was interested in the different wording between the version you read and the one that's cited in the Book of Serenity, the difference between being humbled and humiliation and scorn and revilement of people. The humbleness and humiliation to me sounds... More like sort of an internal, like me being humbled is like me, sounds like me realizing my delusions or my evil deeds. And the other one sounds more like other people judging me.

[18:17]

Well, yeah, so do you see humble the same as humiliation? No, I don't, but I think you said both words. Yeah, I said, you will be humbled. And then later it says, by this humiliation. So it doesn't matter too much whether it's coming from the outside or the inside. I guess it sounds like one, like you could be scorned and reviled by people and not really, and not necessarily be humbled. You mean like you could say something like, well, tell me, so somebody's like saying, you know, Zachary, you're like, you know, a really a blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, [...] blah. And then what would happen to you that wouldn't be humbled? what would be going on inside you that wouldn't be humbled by that. You'd get really mad. Right.

[19:25]

So that's not what this is about. Right. If you get mad, you don't believe this teaching, you're not studying the Diamond Sutra. Because the Diamond Sutra is saying this. This isn't the Diamond Sutra. The Diamond Sutra is saying, if you hold the teaching up and you're bearing the teaching in mind, then you won't get angry when people insult you. And when people insult you, you just say, oh, Diamond Sutra says, Diamond Sutra says. So that means you go like this to people when they insult you. And you say, this is a shrine. I'm in a shrine here, right? And people are making fun of me and insulting me and slandering me and scorning me for being in this shrine space. Okay? And I'm being in the shrine of what? A shrine of my true nature which is no nature at all, according to the scripture. And if you practice that way, people... And one theory is that when this scripture was written, the people who wrote and practiced this teaching actually did get in a lot of trouble because it was a very unusual form of Buddhism at that time.

[20:35]

So even other Buddhists criticized them for this kind of teaching. But still, these days too, you get in trouble if you talk like this, Now, talking like this doesn't mean like taking this literally either. That's part of what this teaching is about too, is you don't take this literally. And without taking it literally, you still don't get angry when people attack you when you're practicing this way. And if you're practicing this way, you don't get angry when people are attacking you. But people will attack you, the scripture says. They will insult you. Even the Buddha got insulted. How come he got insulted? Because he had such a good practice. If you don't get insulted, if you don't have a good practice, you don't get insulted, then guess what happens to you when you don't get insulted?

[21:38]

You keep not having a good practice. You just like coast along in the wrong track. And nobody gives you any negative feedback, so you just say, hey, let's keep going this way. This is really big trouble. But when you get scorned, you know you're in the right place. You're getting close to the fruit of the Buddha. You had a question already, didn't you, Rain? So that's your number two, right? Okay. Now you wait. You can have seconds and thirds, but these other people get to go ahead of you. Please. Okay, Wendy and Jonathan. Was there anybody else that had their hand raised? And Swet, yes? So, these ideas of karma seem really different from Western ideas about free will. I mean, is there free will, a belief in free will in Buddhism? Well, In Buddhism?

[22:39]

I don't know about in Buddhism. I don't exactly know what in Buddhism means, but the Buddhist teaching is everything is dependently co-arisen. So that means you can't produce a thought all by your own power. So you can't think of nodding your head by your own power. That's not by your own free will. It's a dependent co-arising, because if I didn't say that to you, you wouldn't be nodding your head. It might be not in your head, but because it's something else. So, in Buddhism, there really is nothing that really makes sense in terms of free will, because that's like... But there is, in Buddhism, the recognition that people think they do have free will. When I say in Buddhism, I mean, you know, I think that. I think that people think they have free will. So, that's what I think. So there is the recognition on the part of at least one student of Buddhism that people have free will.

[23:40]

I know a lot of people that think they have free will, that they think they can think of something and do something by their own will. So Buddhism recognizes that, but recognizes that as a delusion. But if you study the process by which people have such delusions and act upon those delusions, you're studying karma And studying karma is part of right view. Studying karma is part of what will liberate you from the delusion that you can act independently of all life. So studying karma, then, if you practice the scripture from the point of view of your own personal power, that's okay. That will work a certain way. So although we don't recognize free will as a thing by itself really that makes sense, we recognize that people are concerned with free will and some people believe in it. But although there may not really be a thing called freedom, I mean called free will, there is the realization of freedom.

[24:47]

But the realization of freedom is no more of a real thing than free will, because freedom also dependently co-arises. But there is the dependent core arising of this thing called free will, which means people think that there's such a thing because it's inconsistent. There's a contradiction in free will. Whereas freedom is not inconsistent. It's a coherent thing. Free will is incoherent. Freedom is coherent. So there is the realization of incoherence. That's called the dependent core arising of illusion and confusion and pain. And there's a dependent core arising of happiness and freedom. But both of them are dependent core arisings. But one's freedom and the other's bondage and power. Neither one of them are more real than the other, really. It's just that one of them keeps falling apart just by looking at the reasonableness of it. The other one falls apart only by its dependent core arisings.

[25:50]

It's empty because it depends on things. The other one is not only empty because it depends on things, but what it depends on is confusion. Whereas freedom doesn't need confusion, except as something to be set free from. But if you don't think there's free will, then what do you think? Whatever policy, whatever view you have, that would be a perfectly reasonable thing to study. It's dependent on co-arising. If you don't believe in free will... If you believe, for example, in determinism, that material events force you to do things, and you do not have free will, but you think that's what's happening, that's also a delusion. So Buddhism is not deterministic, and it's not indeterministic. It doesn't say you're free to do things by yourself. It doesn't say you're forced to do things by others. But if you hold either of those views, that's okay if you study them. you'll see their dependent core rising and be free of both of those views and move to the middle, the middle way.

[26:56]

The middle way is understanding dependent core rising of the extreme views. But neither of those views aren't Buddhist, they're just views which Buddhists study, if they happen to be in the neighborhood. The Diamond Sutra is part of the study of extreme views. So when you're studying dependent core rising, you will be reviled. OK? Let's see, who was next? Wendy? Oh, Jonathan. Yeah. When you were studying the last case, it would be early to bring this up, but you had said that that was sort of a means to study this case, or you wanted to sort of lighten this case. And I don't see that at all. You don't see it? Well, the last case was a little bit, again, on the level of seeing the case as instruction. The last case showed something about, gave you some instruction about how to study.

[28:00]

So if you want to study what's happened, like study the Diamond Sutra, it's good to not bring anything in to your study of the Diamond Sutra. And if you're studying the Diamond Sutra, it's good to put things down as you study it. That's part of what the Diamond Sutra would tell you But the case before also told you that when you're studying the Diamond Sutra, keep putting the Diamond Sutra down. Because the Diamond Sutra, Diamond Sutra, as no Diamond Sutra, is taught by the Diamond Sutra. So whatever you think the Diamond Sutra is, you should realize that the Buddha teaches that the Diamond Sutra is not what you think the Diamond Sutra is. And that's what it's like to study the Diamond Sutra. And you keep upholding and being devoted to something that you can't grasp, that's inconceivable. And you even put down your conceptions of inconceivability. So the previous case is kind of like, helps you have the right posture in studying before and after that case.

[29:05]

Okay? Hmm? Pardon? Pardon? You still need the diamond scripture? You still need the diamond scripture? Oh, no, no, you don't need to pick anything up. That's what I just told you, is you don't need to. As a matter of fact, if you do, you won't be studying the diamond scripture. You'll be studying something you picked up. The diamond scripture is not something you can pick up. One time somebody tried to lift up the Diamond Sutra. They had a little problem. They wouldn't budge. And they hired this kind of like, you know, this big heavy equipment company to try to help them move it. They could not lift it up. It cannot be lifted. That's what the KSB4 said too. It said, even with your big strong arms, you cannot lift up this putting down. Right? You can't pick this. The Diamond Sutra is not a thing. That's what the Diamond Sutra says.

[30:15]

Read the Diamond Sutra. As you're reading it, it says, don't pick me up. That's what it's meant by upholding the Diamond Sutra, is not to pick it up and say, this is the Diamond Sutra. Have you read the Diamond Sutra? That's what it says in there. It says, you know, Zen center has no Zen center, the target teaches, therefore we say Zen center. Diamond sutra has no diamond sutra, therefore we say diamond sutra. Okay? That's what the diamond sutra says, literally, and that's the kind of practice that it is. It's like, how do you practice in such a way that you don't pick things up? But then you don't do the opposite, like not picking up into a thing, and then you're like... Like, don't touch the sutra or something. Yes, Sway? It seems to me, well, what happens when someone who's not reading the Fatima Sutra has a confrontation or is reviled and finds himself repungal in that situation?

[31:30]

I mean, it seems to me that there's the potential, I guess, for that kind of humility in every situation, regardless if you're reading the Diamond Sutra or not. Right. As a matter of fact, in a sense, you are reading the Diamond Sutra, whether you know it or not, when you're being humiliated. And the Diamond Sutra is nice because the Diamond Sutra would not say, oh no, you're not reading the Diamond Sutra, because the Diamond Sutra isn't anything, really. So you're conducting your life in such a way... that your experience, you're being humbled, you know? That you're experiencing, people come up to you and say, you know, your practice stinks. And you're like noticing that they're saying that, you know? You're like, your ears are not completely filled with wax. Because your practice has dissolved the wax. So are the results then? So really, any kind of, whatever you're insulted, whenever you're insulted, then I say to you that that's because your practice is good. Even if I say your practice is bad, the reason why I say to you that your practice is bad is because your practice is good.

[32:39]

I don't say, I wouldn't, almost nobody's practice is good enough around here for me to say that it's bad. Because, you know, almost nobody. Except you, of course, Sway. Your practice stinks. But most people, their practice isn't good enough for you to insult them like that because they'll get angry. You know? Because they don't believe the Diamond Sutra. So you insult them, which is actually because their practice is good, but it isn't quite good enough to realize that because it's good that you're insulting them. So then they slug you, which isn't good for them because they forgot the Dhamma Sutra. And the reason why you even said it to them in the first place was because they had practiced with the Dhamma Sutra for so long without knowing it. Yes, Helen, you're not that bad. Ha, ha. But if you don't... And that doesn't give them a chance. Pardon? What did you say? If you don't insult people that will get angry, it doesn't give them a chance to see themselves get angry and to learn to lay... Right.

[33:49]

And that's called... That's called the practice is not too good. That people don't offer them those chances. But as a teacher... As a teacher, yeah. As a teacher, I'm a puppet of people's lousy practice. That's why I shut up all the time. But even though I shut up, I still get reviled because, you know, my practice is lousy. But the only way you can learn to do that is by it happening to you and seeing yourself get angry at that. It's not the only way. No. You can sit there and say stuff like that for a while. You know, you can sit there and say, the only way I'm going to learn is for you to tell me how bad my practice is so I can get angry at you and see how stupid it is to get angry and switch over to being appreciative of what you said. You can say stuff like that, right? Well, it can work that way. It can, yeah, but it's not the only way. Another way is to be quiet and study the Diamond Sutra and then just wait until you get insulted. Occasionally wait for the insult rather than saying, come on, insult me so I can learn.

[34:54]

Study the Diamond Sutra. If you study Diamond Sutra, you know, you can revive much faster than if you beg for insults. This way he doesn't agree. It just doesn't make sense to me. Maybe if I study the Diamond Sutra. Well, not only will it make sense to you, but you will start getting insulted. Some people are waiting for you to start telling your dinosaur joke. They're not going to do it until you start studying it. Because when you start studying, they know, oh, now she'll be able to listen to my negative criticism of her. Now. Now she'll be able to handle it. She won't get angry now. Now she understands. Now she's really encouraged. She's ready for that. She can be tested. Huh? Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's okay that it makes sense.

[36:00]

Were there some bodies moving over there? Oh, Helen? That's number two for you, Helen. You have to wait. You're after, what's his name, Rain. And Jane, I think it's Jane and Allison. You said somewhere that this isn't literal, not to take it literally. Right. So what is being reviled, scorned in a non-literal sense? Just difficulties in general? Pardon? In a non-literal sense, what it is to be... What is it to be reviled in a non-literal sense? I mean, if it's not literal... No, it is literal. It's a literal revilement. Like, you know, you're stupid, you're a Buddhist freak, you're in a cult, you know, Diamond Sutra is just sick, you know, you're a nihilist, you know. you don't really care about people because you're talking like that, blah, blah, blah, this kind of thing.

[37:04]

But also with a nasty tone, too, you know. Even they might say something like, oh, you're really a good student, aren't you, Jane? Yeah, you're really compassionate. That kind of thing, you know, scorn. They're really like besmirching you with backhanded comments. Okay? But you don't take it literally. It's a literal insult, but you don't take it literally. Oh, okay. Okay. You know that this is just... your religious imagination functioning. You know you're having a vision. You understand you're having a vision, a religious vision. You know, you're like actually in a religious, you're like in a religious world where you're not being, you know, literally insulted. But this is not literally what's going on. What's going on is this is your liberation process happening. You're actually coming free of your habits. Rather than, okay, here I am, got my habits, and everybody's saying, good boy, good boy, good boy.

[38:10]

No. You're practicing, so you're drawing this dramatic assistance in the form of Allison. What does it mean? Well, it's kind of like taking these things literally. It's an enemy. Like you have an understanding, like I'm talking here, you read the koans, so then you have this understanding, and what's the understanding based on? The scripture. That's an enemy of your Buddha. So you say, well, what would be a good thing for my understanding to be based on? Should I reject the scriptures then? If you reject one word of them, then that's demon talk. So you don't reject the scriptures and you don't rely on them.

[39:14]

What do you rely on? Guess. She pointed at herself. Wrong. Wrong. you rely on reality, which is that you and the scripture dependently co-arise. You base your understanding on reality, not on the scriptures, which are over there, and not on yourself, which is over here. The interdependence of you and the scriptures, that thing, that reality, that you can rely on. Because, of course, that's totally inconceivable, and you can never cash in on that. And when you rely on that, then people will start reviling you. Because you start manifesting your compassion in these ways of studying these nonsense scriptures. From the point of view of people who are taken in literally. They are literal expressions not to be taken literally. They are visions of religious life that are not taken literally.

[40:18]

Okay. Any new people? Yes. Yes. So what is it about the Diamond Sutra that makes it different from the others that that would bring this up? It's not just true of the Diamond Sutra, but the Diamond Sutra is one of the sutras that points this out about itself. But it's true of other scriptures too. But it's maybe a little bit more true of the Diamond Sutra, because the Diamond Sutra is kind of a revolutionary tone, because it says stuff like, you know, the Diamond Sutra as no Diamond Sutra is what it really means. What Liz really means is no Liz. But we don't just say that, then we go around saying, well, my name is no Liz. You go back to, therefore we say Liz. So you have to be Liz as usual, but with the revolutionary attitude that really the meaning of you is that you're not you. That's really what you are. But also, you're conventionally Liz, so you can't throw out the conventional Liz and switch over to this upgraded, non-conventional, not Liz.

[41:29]

That just distracts you. Just go back to being Liz, but remember, what Liz really is, is not Liz. Ultimately, you're not Liz. This kind of thing is particularly... revolutionary. It has that upsetting, demolishing potential. So Diamond Sutra is sometimes criticized as a little too rough, a little too stark. It should have a little padding around it, some people feel. Because it says diamond cutter, you know, it keeps cutting. Cut, cut, cut, cut. Okay, any other new people before we go on to the second timers? Okay, so we have Rain and Helen and David. Oh, Carrie, another new timer. Oh, and Carol. Okay, Carrie and Carol. Carrie first, please.

[42:31]

Yes. Yes. someone who's not included in cause and effect explains the results of action or not yes what's not included in cause and effect yes what about what what is not included in cause and effect well let's say there was somebody that wasn't shall we without saying what that is Okay? Do not sing, no. Okay? One of the things I want to say tonight, but I was thinking of saying it later because this part of the class is actually sort of easy, is I like this expression which I mentioned to some people that mathematicians said, mathematics is like going into a dark mansion and then going into a dark room

[43:35]

and closing the door, and then moving around and bumping into furniture for six months in the dark. Until finally the lights go on and you actually see what's going on in the room. And I like that image of mathematics, but I also like that image for Zen practice. Going into the dark and bumping into things in the dark. And just by bumping into these things, You sort of learn things by that, but actually what you learn is, you know, well, I don't know, you learn something, but that process of realizing that that is the process and not getting angry at your shins and the furniture, but just realize that this is the way that the lights are going to go on, is by being in the dark, bumping into stuff. And that also reminds me of, as I mentioned to you before, that I was... reading a mathematician talking about consciousness and he said, he said, I'm not going to define consciousness rigorously because I don't know what it is.

[44:49]

But not knowing what something is doesn't stop mathematicians from talking about it because we can talk about something in terms of its relationships with other things even though we don't know what it is. So even if, I'd like to not say what this thing is, that's free of cause and effect. All right? but I can still say something about its relationships. Namely, could something that's free of cause and effect still experience the results of actions? And I would say, yes. There is something that's free of cause and effect. And part of the way the Buddha is actually free, not just sort of free, but free. I mean, just plain, whatever you got, the Buddha's free. But part of the way the Buddha shows her freedom is by plunging into an intimate embrace with cause and effect, with karmic effect. So, if we keep talking about and studying this thing, which is willing to experience cause and effect,

[45:59]

and study cause and effect, we will eventually realize that which is free of cause and effect. But if we say what it is, there's going to be kind of a problem in that. We have to be very careful not to define this too early. And the Buddha did say, actually, that one of the things that you can never define is the qualities of a Buddha, really. And yet, you can say that the Buddha has this relationship with cause and effect. Namely, that's Buddha's like playground. And you may be promoting him ahead of schedule on that one. But maybe not, you know, because he was embarrassed, you know, that that happened.

[47:01]

And you say, well, that's really a Buddha. To be embarrassed, that's like top of the line Buddha. And to tell you the truth, he was somewhat free of his embarrassment. You know, being embarrassed is kind of like, oops, I'm in cause and effect. Oh, geez, I'm not supposed to be here. Oops. I'm a Zen master. I'm not supposed to be in cause and effect. But then when he told the story, he was kind of like, hey, look at me, foolish Zen master. And that was kind of like free of cause and effect. Being willing to admit that he was that way and that he was embarrassed. That's pretty good. That's why confession is so endearing. Or one of the reasons. Okay, second timers now? Oh, Carol. Oh, Carol. I wanted to say a little environment.

[48:04]

I was thinking, I was noticing, when you explain difficult matters so clearly and so well, it's very hard enough to take you literally and rely on some And I wanted to ask for that to become more difficult, for what you said to become more difficult. Do you want what I say to be more difficult? No. Well, I want it to be shown a way to make what you said more difficult. Not more difficult. I don't know how to put this exactly. Well, that's reliable. And now I've discovered the way, which is to get called on second. So my heart is pounding so loudly, everything you said, I can barely hear what you're saying.

[49:15]

Good. Yeah. Now, some people do not want what I'm saying to be more difficult, and they drop out of the class. But those of you who find it too difficult, then imagine coming forth and expressing revilement, and then that will make it more difficult, as Carol's discovered. But that wasn't very disdainful of you. What did you say, Fred? It seems to me that you misunderstood her just now. Yes. What she was saying was, you're a hypnotist. Yeah. And you sort of hypnotized her into a state of easy relief. Will you make it more difficult for her to accept what you're saying?

[50:20]

No, I thought what I was saying... It was very close to that. It's on this point of understanding the meaning based on Scripture. Understanding the meaning based on... Yeah, I thought you were saying, protect me, O Lord, from understanding based on Scripture. Especially easy understanding based on Scripture. And also, but you didn't say protect me from deviating from the Scriptures. You're not worried about that right now? No. You're technically separated from them. By them. Yeah. Well, not by them, but by basing yourself on them. As over there. So am I a snake charmer or a snake? Mahin? Just wondering, how do you see it so you can see it well in your space?

[51:27]

How do you Well, I think what sometimes happens is that if you look at somebody else and they're getting criticized, you may think, oh, that's unjust, that's unjust. They're trying to be helpful to somebody, something like that. They're trying to... studied Buddhism or something and people are attacking them. So you might say, that's injustice. But I was saying, let's talk about yourself as a practitioner. Let's first of all give yourself, not give yourself or something, but realize that it's because of your good practice that this is happening. Then it's not an injustice, it's a, you know, it's part of your process of liberation. It's actually, what do you call it, it's because of your merit that you're getting this insult. But if we look at someone else who's being treated badly, if it looks like they're being treated badly, then the attitude might be different.

[52:35]

Then we need to go investigate how they're doing, see how they're doing, see what their perception of the situation is. And that interaction, hopefully, will lead to relief of injustice, of the dependently co-arisen thing called injustice, which you see over there. But when it applies to yourself, in terms of yourself, if you want to be in the story of liberation, then you forget about actually thinking that you're being treated unjustly, but actually you're being treated appropriately, vis-à-vis your good practice. You're not really being treated well or badly or fairly or unfairly. You're being treated appropriately, just right, for your practice. And you say thank you. And then people maybe give you something else which is appropriate.

[53:38]

And you keep appreciating this rather than getting angry at what your practice is actually giving you now to work with. But that's not the same as according to someone else's practice and their difficulties. In that case, you have to get in there and help them tell you how it is for them so that you can find out, and in process of you finding out, they find out what's going on with them. Sometimes you get surprised about what's going on with them. Sometimes they don't feel like it's revilement. Sometimes they feel like it's appropriate. even a compliment. So you have to get in there and find out what it is before you can assess this phenomena of injustice. And then as you study it, injustice will be relieved and justice will be established by your investigation of what is apparently an unjust situation. Well, I'm doing this because I understand, after having experienced re-violence in a number of different ways, what you're getting at.

[54:52]

And it seems quite an esoteric teaching. And I don't want to say risky or dangerous or something, in the sense that I feel like a lot of what we do in the world as social activists or whatever we're doing is based on kind of stuff some kind of reviling that's going on with one group to another, or one individual to another. And when you say that you're not, that we do something different, we see another person reviling, or we don't take this teaching and assume that this is happening there as it might be happening to people in this room in this practice, then yet, there's something very petty about all this. There's something very empty. You know, I'm hesitant to say that it's useful in a certain way. For us to assume that it is, and to transpose this into another context to live with.

[56:01]

Do you mean that heady is kind of like because it's useful it's heady? It's been useful in my own practice, very useful, that turning. The most useful thing I think ever. And yet I also can see how the activity in a troubled world is about stopping one group from violating another, or another person from violating another. That's some people's activity, yes. Many people's activity. Yes. Some group of people are trying to stop somebody from reviling somebody else, right? But quite a few other people are trying to revile other people. That's mostly what they seem to be doing. I don't hear them trying to stop people from reviling. I hear them just reviling people who are reviling. I haven't taken a census on who's doing reviling, who's trying to stop reviling, but anyway, people do have these different occupations, I agree.

[57:05]

So I'm just saying, it seems to go into that world which you just described, and say, hey, I've got this insight, and I'd like to work with it. There's a great gap, you know, like that. What do you mean by go into what world? Go into a situation of people who are not studying the Dynastute, who are not studying Zen, who are not studying the Buddha. Okay, right there, okay. You say go into a world where they're not. I didn't say go into a world where they're not. I said go in and check to see what's going on. You don't know how they're perceiving the situation. I said go in and find out what's going on. They can tell you how they see it. So if they see it, I'm being reviled and that's my enemy and I should attack them. then you might sort of ask about that. But you might find out that they are practicing. It's hard to tell from the outside how they're understanding what's going on. But I think it is good, I think, and part of studying the Diamond Sutra is to try to find out what is going on in the minds of these beings.

[58:11]

That's another part of the Diamond Sutra, is trends of thought. trends of thought. As no trends of thought are they understood and taught by the Buddha. So part of the Diamond Sutra is to try to understand the no trends of thoughts of the person by asking them what trends of thoughts they have. By you interacting with beings about their trends of thought, they receive the teaching, which is the no trends of thought. In other words, they become relieved of their own trends of thought by your bodhisattvic interaction. By trying to find out what their trends of thoughts are, they and you together realize the dependently co-arisen nature of their trends of thought. So you don't come in and sort of say, well, here's the Diamond Sutra. You come in and say, well, what's going on with you? And sometimes you find out, they look up at you and they say, you know, you've got a Dhamma Sutra person right there, you know, and then you revile them. You dirty old rotten sneaky Dhamma Sutra practitioner, I didn't know you were doing that.

[59:22]

I thought you was like just suffering from injustice and here you are cooking away here on the verge of the Buddha fruit, my God. You might find that out. And if you don't, if you don't find that out, then you don't revile them. You just gently inquire into the trends of their thought. And as you understand the trends of their thought, they understand the trends of thought because they're telling you what they are. The Buddha can read people's minds, but what the Buddha does is doesn't primarily do that. The Buddha gets the people to talk. And in the process of expressing our trends of thought, we understand them. So that's the way to teach the Diamond Sutra in this situation. Ask people what's going on. Ask them what their views are. Once you find out they're practicing the Diamond Sutra, then things get rough. But then it's okay if they get rough because this person is practicing the Diamond Sutra, so they're up for it. You know, they want to like, let's get this over with, you know.

[60:25]

Let's, come on, give it to me. But you don't give it to them before they ask for it. You don't, you know, you don't go into the cancer warden say well you people you know how come you have cancer you know have you heard of the first noble truth you don't necessarily say that you ask them how they're feeling and maybe you find out by the way they talk that they want to hear about Buddhism or maybe they don't want to hear about it but maybe the way they want to hear about it is they want to hear that somebody's interested in how they're feeling and then Buddhism is enacted by your dialogue with them put your hand over here Yes. I think this is an extremely important teaching. All of Mahayana Buddhism is based on the liberation of beings, and Zen is in the middle of that tradition. I thought it was over on the left a little bit. I thought we were on the left side of the middle way. In Tang China, monks flocked into monasteries to hear great teachers give them death words.

[61:44]

They seemed to love it, or at least a lot of them did. Well, the ones who stayed more than one night did. In fact, one of the ways that I think that you can practice the Diamond Sutra is to be terrified that you're a teacher. And be afraid that... Be terrified what? Be terrified of your teacher. Of your teacher? Yes. Be extremely... Also be terrified that you are a teacher. Be extremely worried that they're going to challenge you. And also be extremely worried that they're not. Particularly be afraid that they're not. Yeah, right. As well as... having no idea that that's what you're doing. Yeah, that too. John?

[62:46]

Yeah, it seems to me, I'm having this feeling that a lot of this is about how embarrassing it is to just be a self, you know? Yeah. Just to be egocentric, and then... And then you get in the state or not of noticing it, of having the whole world kind of show you how off track you are. So, like this word violent either comes, if you're lucky, I guess, it seems like it's saying, either comes from inside or outside, if you're kind of sensitive or in a subtle enough state so that you see that things are not working the way your ego centrously is kind of telling you that it's working. Is that? That could be that way, but also things could be going just fine from your point of view, and everybody else is telling you that it's no good. Not everybody, but a lot of people are telling you it's no good.

[63:49]

Well, but if you're not practicing, then maybe you won't even hear it no more. Notice that they're saying that to you. To not notice that they're reviling you, yeah, that would go along nicely with not practicing. So it sounds like the more you practice, then you notice kind of subtler and subtler kind of revival. Mm-hmm. Yeah, somebody said, who said it? They quoted me. Who was it? Oh, it was Bob. Where's Bob? Did you quote me saying that? That bodhisattvas are in this kind of harassing each other all the time. Framing. They're training each other by, you know, finding littler and littler and more subtle things to pick at. So, of course, they get really good at helping each other. Yes? When I hear that for a person who's studying the Bible Sutra, this reviling can help burn out your karma,

[64:58]

It is the burning off of your karma. The burning off of the karma, leading to freedom and enlightenment. Yes. Is it that the reviving the self sort of purifies you, sort of like a purification by fire? Yes. Or is it that, or both, that you get the opportunity to see yourself, because you react to reviling and you have a chance to see yourself. Both. But seeing is not burning off karma. That's not a karmic act. That's an enactment of your understanding at that point. It's an opportunity to wake up. So, everything that comes to you is an opportunity to wake up or it's an opportunity to stay asleep.

[66:02]

But when negative things happen, those are definitely the maturing of some karma. And when positive things happen, that's definitely the maturing of some karma. But when you're practicing and positive things happen, you don't feel like, well, how come? you think, well, that makes sense. I am trying to be helpful and things are going pretty well. I tried to do something wholesome and I got a wholesome result. That makes sense. We don't have such a problem with that. So in other words, you do something wholesome, you intend it to be wholesome, and you think you understand that that was the result. It may be wrong. You may be, in other words, It may not be what you just did or what you have done in your memory that's causing this thing to happen. It's actually more complicated than that. But if you think so, you're still kind of in the ballpark of studying karma. But when bad things happen to you, right when you're doing the best thing you ever did, when you're doing the kindest, most intelligent thing,

[67:07]

most insightful way of being that you've found so far, and then you get reviled, then you might think, wait a minute, this is the way it should be. Don't freak out now, right when you're starting to work. So not only is this clearing you up, but it's giving you a chance to practice at the same time, to appreciate something which is a little hard to appreciate, which demonstrates your understanding, plus this thing is to be appreciated anyway. So a good thing's happening to you, which is good, and now you have a chance also to understand that it's good, which is even better. What's really good is to understand this, because that's the practice. And when you do the practice, then you get tested to show you understand the practice. But understanding this teaching is what's really good. Being reviled is good in the sense that it's giving you an opportunity to clear the karma, but what's really good is to do the practice the wisdom of the scripture. So you said both. But one is receiving the karma and burning off karma.

[68:10]

The other is practicing the scripture. And then if you do practice the scripture, then you get more. Another opportunity. And the opportunities will either get bigger and grosser. They have their challenges, right? Or they'll get subtler. And those are hard too, not only because they're subtle, but because you feel like, hey, why is it so picky? You know? This is such a small thing I hardly need to even deal with. But no, that's like you're missing an opportunity to say thank you. There's little hassle. And the big hassle is in between. So all those things are clearing you, but if you don't appreciate it, then you're missing the chance to practice it and therefore draw more opportunities and more examples to again appreciate and be cleared and appreciate. Clear and appreciate. The more you appreciate, the more you get opportunities to clear. And the more you're cleared, the more opportunities you get to appreciate it. So you get clearer and more and more appreciative. So the process, they feed each other. That's why, you know, it really does lead to the Buddha fruit.

[69:15]

It isn't just that you get cleared. You get cleared and full of, you know, wisdom. And some people can have plenty of wisdom and also be totally clogged up and still keep being hassled. But that means that you have more to learn. Your wisdom can even get greater from handling these, processing these things. Yes? If the re-violment is inner, and I understand of that re-violment, did I understand you to say that that doesn't affect your karma? The re-violment has to have some kind of co-arising existence in an active participant or an active... No, it can be inner revilement. Inner revilements also are the maturing of karma. So if I have inner revilement and I understand what I'm doing, that I'm reviling myself. Yes. And I understand that.

[70:16]

Yes. And I, rather than get angry and kick the furniture, I really look at it and I see where it's coming from and I find kindness for myself. then that changes the karma? No. The thing that happened to you is already not changing the karma, it is fulfilling the karma, it is closing the account on that karma. The thing, when it first happens to you, it's like burning karma off right there. You're already a little bit freed by that thing maturing. And also, small things like being reviled and bumping your shins on the furniture in the dark, that kind of stuff, is like very short-term maturation stuff. Those things, you know, they haven't been accumulating for very long. So you've got foreshortened karmic expiation. Is expiation the right word? Mm-hmm. So you're actually getting freed right in the spot of that particular, whatever that action was which led to that.

[71:23]

Plus, if you appreciate it, then you're doing the practice, the type of practice, which tends to foreshorten these things and it'll probably bring more things on you and you'll bump into more furniture. But when you bump into the furniture in the dark, this is the stuff that sets up the lights going on. But if you get angry, then you're just creating more karma and you've got to get more furniture bumping into you. But if you keep practicing after you get angry, then it'll be bumping into furniture rather than being in a situation where you won't even be able to feel what's happening to you. You won't even be able to be aware. You're totally unconscious. That's the real problem. Those are the states that we really have problems with, is when we don't even feel the pain anymore. Because we're so smashed, the smithereens, by... the big maturations. Okay, any other first timers?

[72:25]

Okay, now we've got second timers. Did you get your second one, Brain? Okay, Brain, Sway, Zachary, Jonathan, Liz, Helen. So we're talking a lot about karma and the... Dissolving of karma, transformation of karma. And we're talking about is that that itself leads to enlightenment. Pardon? We're talking about karma as if doing something with karma is going to affect enlightenment. Studying the karma. Studying karma. Studying karma realizes enlightenment. So before we were talking about the Dynastutra, it said, and you'll be saying two things, that practicing the Dynastutra would lead to transforming karma on the Yes. Yes. And it would also lead to enlightenment. But we've been talking about karma, is it by transforming the karma that softly to enlightenment? No, no, no.

[73:26]

It's, it's practiced in the Diamond Sutra, karma is maturing, okay? The maturing of the karma is the freeing you from karma. So past karmic stuff is going to be processed, right? And you're going to process it faster because you're practicing. But you're practicing. It's the practice in combination with the clearing of the karma that is the condition for awakening. Just maturing karma, everybody does that. But not everybody appreciates the process of karmic maturation. If you don't appreciate the process of karmic maturation, you're not going to wake up. You're just going to keep fighting back and creating more and just getting more and more antithetical to your good opportunity. But if you say thank you and study and realize that what's coming to you is because you're studying and because you've been practicing, this kind of attitude is commensurate with Buddha mind.

[74:32]

This is the way Buddha feels about things. Okay. Zachary? I was wondering about the karmic consequences for the person who reviles. It seems like they're helping you, they're reviling you, burning off your karma. Yes. But what about their karma? Are they also creating negative karma for themselves at the same time? Well, if the person that's reviling you is somebody who's practicing the diamond scepter and they're getting reviled while they're practicing it, but they're reviling you, they're fine. But if there's somebody who's not practicing, they're getting in big trouble helping you. That's ironic. It's a sad thing that somebody's helping you out by getting in more trouble themselves. But if they're practicing and they're reviling you

[75:34]

while they're really reviled too, and they're just like, you know, then they know that even while they're reviling you, they're not doing a very good job at it. Because other people are criticizing and saying, you shouldn't be so rough on Zachary. You're really being too rough. You're really a mean person. And they're kind of going, yeah, maybe I'm not doing this right, this reviling thing. Maybe I should have reviled him a little differently. I'm really... This is actually because of my practice that I'm getting reviled while I'm trying to help Zachary by telling him how bad his practice is. Because he begged me. Actually, Helen begged me, but she doesn't deserve it, so I'm going to give it to Zachary. But just to revile people, not because you really feel... that this is going to be helpful to them. And also, in the process of doing it, realizing you're not doing a very good job and feeling insecure about it and all that, then that would be trouble for me to act like that.

[76:41]

And now that, but you have to do it wholeheartedly, too. Because if you do it half-heartedly and get reviled for half-heartedness, it's hard to learn from that. So you have to wholeheartedly Tough, huh? Got to really be practicing, like, to wholeheartedly revile people as compassion. So that's what we have these Zen stories about. And so I want to say that, in a sense, I feel like there's two approaches to this story. One is sort of the way we're talking about now to understand the laws of karma, these inconceivably strange laws. And the other is, the second part of the koan starts sort of where he says... He says, well, how about for Zen monks, how about for Chan monks? And then he tells a story about this guy whacking the oven. Okay? So... The story kind of, in some sense, there's another dimension to this story, which is, so far I've been talking about this story a little bit like just the mechanics of karma and how karma and practice work together.

[77:59]

This is not about just karma. This is about karma and practice. There's other stories about, I mentioned a few things about the way karma works when you don't practice. When you don't practice, then karma just goes along really nicely. You feel really comfortable. You're totally miserable, causing lots of trouble to everybody. And you're giving yourself in deeper trouble, but you're perfectly comfortable. Because you're human. And you got basically a really good deal. I mean, you got a good deal. I mean, the worst thing that happens to humans is nothing compared to what's going to happen to some of the things that human beings are doing. To the human who's doing it. And when you're really not practicing, you just go ahead and do this stuff and you feel fine. I haven't been talking about that. This is about people who are practicing. People who are practicing have problems and get criticized. And the more thoroughly you practice, the more you draw it on yourself.

[79:02]

And again. Of course, you also draw all kinds of compliments and benefits and support, too. You get tremendous support. tremendous help and kindness to help you practice so thoroughly that you get some revilement. So this is a happy story here. But there's another way of looking at this story, or this koan, which isn't this way. Because this is, you know, if you look at this story and look at this case, this is a case where what the case is is a quotation of a scripture Right? This isn't a story about a teacher and a disciple. See the difference? Something different here. But that same dynamic is in this story. Okay? So I haven't been talking about that. I've been talking about the principles of karma and practice. But how is this case like the other cases? How can we put this quotation in here? It's different from the other things, you see.

[80:04]

So I'd like you to think about that in the next class. There's another dimension here. besides the fact that this isn't just like a quotation, this is a quotation in a koan book, which most of the other things are about student-teacher interrelationships, about this kind of dharma transmission between people. That's going on in this case, too, but it's not so obvious. So I'd like to go into that next week. In the meantime, jeez, you guys are going to have a great time. Reviling each other? Huh? reviling each other? No, no, no. None of you are going to revile anybody, and yet somehow some of you are going to be reviled. But I don't think anybody, any of you, I don't think any of you have the ability to revile anybody. But I think some of you have practices which are good enough to get a revilement now. I think some of you are almost ready to be humiliated.

[81:08]

But I don't think any of you are ready to humiliate anybody, except me, of course. I think you're ready to humiliate me. Really? Huh? Well, I guess it's time to stop clapping.

[81:29]

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