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Mountains and Rivers: Zen Reality
The talk delves into the Zen understanding of "mountains and rivers" as manifestations of the Buddhist path. It examines the nature of reality, emphasizing two types of existence through the analogy of mountains (phenomenal existence) and rivers (emptiness), suggesting that our perceptions consistently construct reality. The manifestation and non-manifestation of these elements highlight a dynamic interaction between form (phenomenal existence) and emptiness. Drawing from Dogen Zenji's teachings, it calls for an appreciation of the present moment through thorough exhaustion of understanding, while maintaining a relationship between form and emptiness without attachment.
Referenced Works and Texts:
- Dogen Zenji's Teachings: Central to the discourse on the dynamic interaction between form and emptiness and the concept of non-duality in understanding the immediate present.
- Puyo Dokai's Quote: "A stone woman gives birth to a child at night" is mentioned to convey paradoxical nature in Zen understanding related to phenomena.
- Historical Zen Discussion: Mention of traditional Zen teaching methods such as koans, comparing Soto and Rinzai Zen approaches indicates different pathways to understanding realization.
Key Points:
- Phenomena such as mountains and rivers are used metaphorically to communicate Zen concepts of form and emptiness.
- The discourse highlights an ongoing production of reality through our perceptions, challenging the notion of inherent existence.
- The interaction between manifestation and non-manifestation is pivotal in comprehending the dynamic nature of Zen teachings.
- The practice of sitting (Zazen) embodies both the effortful path and an expression of enlightenment, questioning the understanding of practice itself.
- Thorough intellectual exhaustion leads to an appreciation of the immediate present, aligning perception and being without self-clinging.
AI Suggested Title: Mountains and Rivers: Zen Reality
Side: A
Speaker: Tenshin Reb Anderson
Possible Title: Talk 1
Additional text: Wed 19
@AI-Vision_v003
The mountains and rivers of the immediate present are the manifestation of the path of the ancient Buddhas. Together, abiding in their normative state, They have culminated the qualities of thorough exhaustiveness. Because they are events prior to the empty aeon, they are the livelihood of the present. Because they are the self, before the emergence of subtle signs, they are the penetrating liberation of immediate actuality.
[01:16]
The virtue of being able to ride the clouds and the subtle work of following the wind are always accomplished from the mountains. Puyo Dokai said, a stone woman gives birth to a child at night The green mountains are forever walking. I can't read Japanese very well, but I have the Japanese original text sitting here tonight.
[02:44]
So the first word is a word which means kind of like, it's kind of a word going like this. Like make a field or consider this or look at this or how about this or as for this or right about around in here. And the next word is the word which means present. So considering, or as for the present, that's the first thing in the text. And then it says, mountains and waters.
[04:22]
So in this present, mountains and waters that are in this present. What mountains and waters are in the present? Somebody said to Socrates, Socrates, if you're serious, that would mean Turning human life upside down. Okay, now.
[05:31]
What mountains and waters are in the present? Do you have any mountains and waters in the present? You do? Well, good. Does everybody have mountains and waters in the present now? Hmm? Yes. Does somebody not? Wow. Just me, huh? You mean all you people have mountains and waters in the present? Do you, Lee? Well, if you go out, you know, in mountain ranges, maybe you could see some mountains out there, right? But those aren't the same ones that we have here now. Like we said last week, an ancient said... Remember what the ancient said?
[06:38]
Nobody remembers? Well, it was kind of one of those simple ones. Remember those simple statements? An ancient said... Mountains are mountains and waters are waters. Remember? And Dogen Zenji said, this does not mean that mountains are mountains. It means that mountains are mountains. This is the present we're talking about. This is the beginning of the text. This is where it all starts. It all starts right here in this kind of situation. Okay, these mountains and waters that are of the present, these are the manifestation of the path of the ancient Buddhas.
[08:15]
They aren't exactly the path of the ancient Buddhas, okay? They're not exactly that. They're the manifestation of it. Ladies and gentlemen, The path of the ancient Buddhas is not just manifested. It's also unmanifested. It's completely free of manifestation and non-manifestation. But if you're talking about manifestation, then the mountains and the waters of the present are the manifestation. They're not the non-manifestation. Want to see the path of the ancient Buddhas? Want to live the path of the ancient Buddhas? That's the mountains and waters of the immediate present. Can you have them?
[09:35]
That's what I asked you, right? You've been thinking about it for a while. And you thought, well, probably they're not something I could have. Maybe they're not something I could have. You're right. They're not something you can have because they're not something you can have. Because people in the mountains are not, do not, are not, do not understand, do not know. People in the mountains means the mountains. You people in the mountains are the mountains. Those of you who are in the mountains do not understand, do not know. Those outside the mountains do not understand, do not know. So mountains and rivers are not something you can know.
[10:40]
The mountains and rivers of the present are not something you can understand or know. Or have. So you could have said no when I asked you that question. Yeah. Yeah. How can it be? Because of the thought that you're outside. That's what outside is. Outside the mountains is the thought outside the mountains. That's the only kind of outside the mountains there is. It's delusion. Yeah. What? It's delusions of reality, right?
[11:43]
There's two kinds of reality. According to? According to, well... Yeah. One kind of reality is that you and I cannot get a hold of anything. That's one kind of reality. That's the reality of in the mountains. You can't get a hold of things in one sense because things lack inherent existence and you couldn't get a hold of anything, but that the same is saying that things lack inherent existence because you're them. So you can't reach, if you reach out for something, you grab your own face. That's one reality.
[12:43]
The other reality is if you go to things carrying a self, there really is the production of something that's not there. There's the constant production of things that don't exist. That's the other reality. It's real. There's a reality to suffering. There's a reality to confusion. There's a reality to delusion. So it isn't just that delusion is empty. which it is. It isn't just that you can't grasp delusion, which you can't. It's also that something you can't grasp, something you can't know, something you can't get away from or get close to, is constantly produced. There's a constant production of that which doesn't exist. the mountains as something that you can know, or rather the production of the attribution of graspability to the mountains is constantly happening.
[14:14]
We're constantly producing the existence. We're constantly attributing existence to the mountains. We're constantly attributing existence to things that don't exist, which is the same as saying we're producing them, because they're produced simply by saying they exist. And we do that all the time. And it is equally true, too, that things have no existence that you can get a hold of. Those are two things that are real. What does that actually mean to say that things have no existence? I mean, what of the couch you're sitting on, the tree outside the window?
[15:22]
That's not what it means. That's another kind of existence. So are you talking more about... You can grasp, that kind you can grasp. You're talking then more about states of mind? No. I'm talking about the mountains and waters of the immediate present. Can you grasp them? Well, you could climb them or sit on them. That's not the mountains of the immediate present. That's what he said. The mountains, it does not mean that mountains are mountains. It means mountains are mountains. The mountains and rivers, the mountains and waters of the immediate present are the manifestation of the path of the ancient Buddhas. Abiding together, together, abiding in their Dharma position, they have culminated the qualities of thorough exhaustiveness.
[16:33]
By culminating the qualities of thorough exhaustiveness, things are ungraspable and totally transcend any kind of existence that you can attribute to things. Things are much deeper, much more active, much more radiant, much more energetic and dynamic than any imagination can grasp. And they also include that imagination completely. They're really thorough, thorough going, these mountains. I think I'm confused. I've been trying to understand what you've been saying. and what's there by making a metaphor of the mountain and a metaphor of the river.
[17:39]
And I thought that the mountains referred to our ordinary phenomenal existence. The couch is the couch. And that the rivers referred to the couches Lack of inherent existence? Yeah. That's right. But... But that's not... But that's not... That's right. Did you hear what she said? That's right. The mountains are form, feeling, perceptions, all kinds of emotional and psychic dispositions and emotions and stuff like that, and consciousness. In other words, all of existence, that's the mountains, okay? And that's why we're talking about walk down to the bottom of the mountains. Because the foot of the mountain touches the waters.
[18:41]
The foot of the mountain touches the emptiness of the mountains. Okay? These mountains move over the water. That's where all Buddhas come from. All Buddhas come from the eastern mountains. moving over the water. Buddhas do not come from the water. Buddhas do not come from emptiness. Buddhas do not come from the mountains. They come from the mountains moving over the waters. Okay? But the mountains of the present abide in such a way that they culminate the qualities of thorough exhaustiveness. So they're not just phenomenal existence. They're also emptiness simultaneously. That's why these mountains, once the mountains down in the water there, with the tippy toes down in the water,
[19:49]
When existence puts its toes into the water of emptiness, this water splashes up and the mountains jump off and start flying through the air. Real fast sometimes. And also they can go really slowly, but they move. Okay, so you can't squish the mountains of these present into just existence of the ordinary sense either. Got to work that one too. But it is for us through this work with the mountains that we learn how to drive clouds and soar into the wind. It's through the mountains. Did you want to say something? Isn't there a moral relationship between the mountains and the waters in the sense that the water is constantly becoming the mountain and the mountain is constantly becoming the water?
[21:06]
Well, I never heard about that, when the water becoming the mountains. Well, I mean, it forms emptiness and emptiness is formed. Well, it isn't that emptiness switches over into form. Emptiness doesn't become form. I never heard that one. Huh? Yeah, I never heard that. Here's the deal with Pickle Family Circus. Oops. What? Between form and emptiness? The relationship between form and emptiness is the livelihood of the present. This present that we talked about, the life, the life work of the present is that relationship. That's life. Life is that relationship. Life is like, I told you about that guy that came to Zen Center and he asked somebody, what's the practice?
[22:13]
And the guy said, well, you sit. And he said, well, you just sit? And the guy said, yeah. And he was very happy. And this guy is a cosmetic consultant at iMagnon. This guy, then somebody gave him a sutra, a Mahayana sutra, and he read and he saw the word emptiness and he started crying. Why? Because form and emptiness is life. Okay? So our life is, the most wonderful thing to us living people is emptiness, right? But if it weren't for the constant production of that which doesn't exist, there wouldn't be anybody crying over how wonderful emptiness is. Our whole life is a celebration of emptiness.
[23:17]
When we're alive, our whole life is just a big party about emptiness. A celebration of emptiness. A celebration. Celebration means you visit again and again. You go back there and you enjoy emptiness by form. I just said. What do you mean? That's what I said. That's what I said. Maybe you're having trouble turning the English around. Stand on your head. No, you didn't say enjoying form by emptiness and disaster. Does it work both ways? You said enjoying emptiness and form. You enjoy emptiness by form. Right. I know what he's saying, but what should he say?
[24:20]
Should he say what he said? Is that correct English? Yeah, he's asking, does it work the other way? I know, but how do you say it the other way? And enjoy form by emptiness. Well, okay. Are you asking if you enjoy form by emptiness? No. You don't enjoy form by emptiness. Sorry, doesn't work. What? What? Life is, I understand, life is both like a disjunction between form and emptiness. Is it? It's the relationship between form and emptiness, yes. Uh-huh. Ketagiri Roshi says that you first realize that
[25:21]
form is emptiness, and then you realize an emptiness, and then you vibrate between them. Is that what you're talking about, life being a vibration between these two? Well, I wouldn't say vibrate. I would say relationship, because vibration is just a subset of relationships. Okay? Okay. Well, I think what I heard him say was you don't come down on one side or the other, you're stuck. If you find out these two things and then stay on one or the other, you have to continue to commute between. I mean, I didn't know about... Well, you're right, but you're right. I mean, you're basically right, but it's a little bit too... I don't want to stop there, okay? That's all. That's why I like relationship because relationship also allows that, you said you don't stop on one side or the other, but people think they do. So we do. So we go over on the farm and we forget about emptiness and we grasp onto things and we care about stuff because we think they're real.
[26:33]
And then also we flip over, some people flip over to the side of emptiness and they hang out there and they don't care about anything and people go up to them and say, snap out of it. And they say, I don't have to. I got no problems. And you start pounding on them, and they don't really care. Because they don't care. Because it's empty. It's empty pounding. That's a much more dangerous place to get stuck than the other one. But people do get stuck on both sides. But our life is a dance between the two, which is vibrating between them and also getting stuck on both sides. and also taking turns back and forth, and also many other things. So it's vibrating, but it's also like a spinning top. It's also like a vigorously jumping fish. It's also like Rumpelstiltskin jumping up and down on the floor, through the floor.
[27:39]
It's also, it's, you know, I won't go on. See, why is it dangerous to get stuck in emptiness? If you're stuck in form, most people can help you. For example, people can sell you a car. And if you're stuck in form, it won't work for you, right? But if you're stuck in emptiness, very few people can help you. You're just as miserable as you are when you're stuck in form.
[28:43]
But you can't get out very easily because you don't care. That's not it. No, I didn't say it was emptiness. No, they really are stuck in emptiness. But that's not emptiness. I didn't say it was emptiness. You think you're stuck in emptiness. And when you're in form, it's not form either. It's thinking you're stuck in form. You're still having a relationship. No matter what you do, you're having a relationship. But... Most people don't think they're having a relationship.
[29:47]
Most people don't think that their life is form and emptiness vibrating back and forth. Because most people do not appreciate themselves. They do not appreciate these mountains and rivers. that you have here, these mountains and waters. And there's two ways you can not appreciate it. One is called being stuck in emptiness and the other is called stuck in form, two sideways. Or, you know, I talked about many other ways in the last few weeks of ways you can get off from appreciating your life the way it is right here. Appreciating these mountains and these mountains and waters. Not these ones that I'm pointing to when I say these.
[30:51]
I say these, but I don't mean these like... I'm not pointing out these mountains and waters, okay? That's why he says it's not that mountains are mountains. Brian? Brian? About thorough exhaustiveness. Yes. I think I have an understanding of this. I thought it was right. It's not right. Oh, okay. Well... People in the mountains do not understand. What can I say to anybody? You can say it now that we got that straight. I just want to say it. Okay, go ahead. I don't know what it is. So I just had this really down-to-earth idea of thorough exhaustiveness.
[31:58]
Is it like when you have an experience but not quite sure what's happening and kind of pursue it so that you can... really understand what's happening. You do a course of actions and you can really concentrate on something that's happening to the point where you feel deeply pretty much convinced that that's what's happening. Is that like a thorough exhaustiveness of understanding something that maybe kind of Part of thorough exhaustiveness is thoroughly exhausting understanding. That is part of thorough exhaustiveness. And without that, you don't appreciate your life. You've got to thoroughly exhaust your understanding. But then you don't have any understanding. No, you do. Right at the edge... Right just a little bit beyond what you reach, there's no understanding out there.
[33:03]
But you go all the way to your understanding's end. You've got to do that part. We have to do that part, I'm sorry. You've got to do that part. Everybody can do that part, too. Nobody cannot do that part. Because you've got it right there in front of you. It's right under your nose. Follow your nose right to the end. That's your job. That's not thorough exhaustiveness. Because that's something you can know. You can understand that. And you should understand that. And if you understand that, which you do understand, and you have not reached that point, then you should go to the point where you've reached the limit of your understanding. That's your job. That's part of thorough exhaustiveness. But that's not thorough exhaustiveness. But thorough exhaustiveness definitely has that, too. Martha? Are the mountains and rivers of the immediate present thinking, not thinking?
[34:08]
Yes, that's another way to say it. Thinking, not thinking. Thinking of that which doesn't think or thinking of the unthinking. That's the same way, that's the same thing. That's another way to talk about the mountains and rivers of the present. Think of that which doesn't think. Same instruction. You got to think. As much as you can think, you got to think. Because you do think as much as you think. You never rest. You always, you know, like somebody said, I think somebody said the other day, lazy people work just as hard as hardworking people. They do. But there's different results from being lazy and from being hardworking. But they both work equally hard. They're both like totally vibrating back in between form and emptiness. There's probably lazy hummingbirds and hardworking hummingbirds for all I know.
[35:12]
And when Buddha looks at people, Buddha sees living people. Doesn't see like half living people and half dead people. But also Buddha sees people who are like unto death. completely, radiantly, incandescently like death. And other people, radiantly, incandescently vital. These people appreciate their life. These people don't. These people who don't either think they can be it or not be it. These people don't know anything and they've reached the limit of what they know. And they work hard, and they know they work hard. These people work hard and don't think they work hard. Therefore, they get a different result.
[36:15]
But everybody's completely alive, and whether you're in the mountains, in other words, when you're really, the Buddha is in the mountains and doesn't know and doesn't understand. Buddha also understands that people outside the mountains don't know and don't understand. And the only reason why they're separate is because of the way the mind works. Otherwise, they're all one mass of being, which is Buddha's mind. Yes, sir? The idea of thorough exhaustedness and then going to the limits of our thinking mind, it kind of gives that feeling of effort. What about those times when we see our form as form, or we experience form as form, but there's this kind of flash where we kind of intuitively, really deeply we know that it's empty,
[37:22]
And we soon forget it again and we again attach to it as form. What's that flash? Because it doesn't seem to come up through effort, just kind of plops up there for a moment and then it goes away. Uh-huh. What's that? What's the flash? Yeah. What's the flash of where you intuit emptiness? Yeah. I don't know, it sounds like a flash of intuiting emptiness. Where does it come from though? It comes from the place where it happens. It always happens at a place. There's no emptiness. There's no non-local emptiness. There's no place out there and then there's emptiness right over there by that no place. Emptiness is always the emptiness of a place. Places are empty. No places are not empty. Places are empty.
[38:23]
So the emptiness happens at the place. Emptiness happens at a local color. And everything in the universe that's not that local, everything in the universe that's not that local color converges on that local color. And that's why it's empty. And that's why emptiness is so wonderful. Because it connects the place to every place. And it makes that place a celebration of everything except itself. And sometimes you have intuition of that and you cry. Why? It's so beautiful. Why is it beautiful? I call that moment that DJ's talking about is grace. You didn't do anything to get it.
[39:25]
You couldn't demand it. You couldn't train for it. It just happened. It's a gift. It's a gift, yeah. But it is a gift. You did do something, and that is you... There's no effort involved. At the moment of the seeing, I No, there is effort, but the effort isn't that the effort is the effort to make the emptiness happen. The effort is to be at the place. If you're not at the place, you don't get the intuition. I'll just say that right off. You don't get the gift if you're not at the place. But being at the place is not getting the gift. You don't go to the place and then reach out for the gift. If you try to make the gift happen, you ain't at the place. But if you can go to some place and just be at the place, just be at the place, then sometimes you get a gift. Okay? Okay, Lou?
[40:27]
Okay, DJ? Yes, sir? Are you established in that emptiness all the time? Am I established in it? Yeah. How about you? Who says? Some close friends. Yes. I think that Dogen said that there is no... ...talks about the Rinsai, comparing, for instance, the hard work of the Rinsai method, working with koans and so on, this gradual path.
[41:37]
And Darwin says, no, no gap between practice and enlightenment, because sitting is enlightenment. But later on, we find this other, this other one, so this prayer is about exhaustion. Yeah. And then I ask myself, is the same Darwin? So, It's just sitting in his enlightenment. There is no effort. There is no work. We do not have to make any effort. But at the same time, he is saying this and this other one. How can you explain this? I cannot understand. I would like really to penetrate a little more in these two things he says at the same time. How can you help me? The present is contradictory.
[42:44]
So Dogen Zenji, being a person of the present, is contradictory. There's a dynamic there. So you can't get a hold of that teaching. he keeps being alive and therefore you can't get a hold of him. So he keeps contradicting himself. He very much does not want to put a system out there of his teachings so you can get a hold of it and then carry it around with you. Because if you understand Dogen Zenji and bring that understanding to your practice, then you're doing exactly what he says is delusion. If you have some understanding of Dogen or Soto Zen, and you approach your cushion with that, that is going to your cushion with a caring of self, and you're just going to be practicing delusion. When you sit, even for a moment, even for a little time, the entire wonderful thing happens.
[43:58]
All sentient beings are saved. But if you carry that understanding or any other understanding to that practice, then that practice is just a delusion. Because of self-clinging, we want to project that self onto the teaching, too. We want to make the teaching into a self. And when you make teaching into a self, then you can grab the teaching and take it to the cushion with you. Yes. But then you realize that the understanding that you're bringing to your Christian is delusion. You don't delude yourself on top of delusion then by thinking that the delusion of the practice that you're bringing to practice is practice.
[45:13]
You realize, well, I have attachment to self, so I'm going to bring my little version of practice with me to my sitting. So I have self-clinging, and so I'm going to bring my little version of practice with me and then practice delusion now on the cushion. Is it practice? Is it practice? Well, it's practice, but it's not enlightenment. Practice and enlightenment are the same, but not always. They're only the same... Do you want a break? Huh? They're only the same when you do the practice without bringing the self to it. Then they're the same. Do you? If you know that the self that you're bringing to it is the self and is a delusion and is not the practice, then you're not bringing yourself to it.
[46:26]
How can you know it's not a self? You're not... Yes. If you're not bringing a self? Yes. Okay. If you're not bringing a self... By the way, if you're not bringing a self, then practice is the same as enlightenment. Yes. Yes. I'm interested in Joaquin saying something about just sitting is no effort. For me, just sitting is a lot of effort and I can't put just sitting in no effort together. I think the big effort is, for me, is what she's saying about what practices enlightenment is not.
[47:38]
I think when we are bringing our question on when we are sitting without question, I don't know how to explain it. Well, you know, there's two kinds... The effort is your life. Your life is the effort. Your living beings are effortful. You know? Buddhas are effortful. And so are you. So am I. We're effortful. What is it? Regard the lilies of the field. See how they grow. What's the next part? They toil not. They don't toil. But they go . That's effort. But it's not work. It's not a strain. It's happiness. It's life itself. That's all. If you think about it, you could say, boy, it would really be hard to be a lily.
[48:41]
How are you going to get those little things to come up there? I mean, I could see it'd be easier to be like maybe a cactus or something, just go bleh. But to get all those little, that little soft little things to come up there, you know, and those little petals to hang down and all those little, to do that, all that subtle work, you know, wouldn't that be hard? You have to really be careful, you know? Couldn't overdo it. You might blow it, you blow a petal. It's really, really subtle work, very subtle. So you get really nervous and anxious that you're not doing it right, you know? Or like those oriental poppies, those real soft little, those like paper things flowing in the air. How are you going to do that? Now, think about it. It's really hard. But of course, of course, it's just life. You know, it's just life. And there's effort there. And it's not work. Yeah. Yeah. It's impossible, as a matter of fact.
[49:46]
So there's two kinds of effort. I mean, there's two kinds of meditation. One kind of meditation is a meditation that has outflows. Another kind of meditation is a meditation that doesn't have outflows. So the meditation you do before you get to the immediate present, the meditation you do sort of in your idea of the present, it's still meditation, but it's not enlightenment. It's like your idea. You carry yourself to the meditation. It's good, probably. It's wholesome. As a matter of fact, most people do that meditation before they finally understand there's nothing they can do. They do that effortful meditation. They do that meditation where it has outflows, which has gain and loss. They do that for some period of time, and it's wholesome. And that meditation usually precedes the time when you stop bringing the self to your meditation. So you bring yourself to the meditation. You follow the instructions as best you can, and you bring your understanding.
[50:49]
Your understanding is a self. Your understanding is a self. And you bring that understanding to your meditation for one year. two years, three years, four years, five years, six years, seven years, eight years, 20 years, 30 years, many lifetimes. You keep bringing yourself of your understanding to your practice and therefore your practice is delusion. It's pretty wholesome though if you discuss your understanding with some other people so it doesn't get too weird and unwholesome. And then sometime the gift comes of realizing that you actually are forgetting. Actually, sometimes you go to your cushion and you practice with it and you forget to bring the self. You leave it in your room. Or you drop it on the floor just before you sit down and you just sit there. Also, before you understood anything about Zen, when you first sat, you were enlightened. Before you knew anything about it.
[51:52]
Then your sitting was enlightenment then too. But then as you learn more, or after you do a practice period, for example, then you understand a little bit, so now you have a self to your practice, and now your practice is delusion. So does that mean it's better not to study or not to read than just to do it? It's better not to study or read than just to do it, yes. That's better. Then why are you reading this? Because you're not doing it, that's why. You need help. And I'm giving it to you. That's why I'm doing this. And this text is about people that know something, like you, that carry a self to their practice, like you do. That's why I'm doing this. But now if I go in and I don't understand... You know, if I just go in and I have no idea what I'm doing and I sit down there and I'm like, what am I doing? What am I supposed to be doing?
[52:52]
Yeah. Right. Is that just a different kind of self? then the self that goes in there and says, okay, I'm fine. Yeah, if you go in there and think, okay, I don't have an understanding of what practice is, that's another understanding, that's another self, yeah. That's right. You're trapped either way. You're trapped either way. You're not going to get out of it. You're more clever than that. Self-clinging is a well-established pattern. It is extremely skillful and extremely high speed. You know? It can always find a way to maintain itself. You know, always find a way. It never loses its way. What? Yes? What are you establishing that emptiness in? What?
[53:53]
When did you get established in that emptiness? And how did it happen, if you don't mind answering that? You're established in it, too. It's not just me. We're in it together. Sounds good to me. Yeah. Welcome. Welcome home. And we got here now. We always arrive now. We didn't arrive any other time than now. We can't arrive in the past. And it's such a wonderful present. It has a past in it. Jeremy, you didn't ask a question yet. Go ahead. What is the practice of the mountains? What are the mountains practicing?
[54:54]
What is the practice of the mountains? The practice is they walk. That's their practice. What is it? Is that walking on the water? They walk on the water, yeah. And that's one of the things they do. And their walking is the same as yours. Same as my regular... The same as your regular gardener variety walking in the present. The walking you do in the present and the walking the mountains do in the present is the same. It has to be that way. So we should study our walking as a result of that, which means we should study the walking of mountains.
[55:58]
And should, when Dogen says should, he says should quite a bit. What he means by should is he means really that's what you're already doing. That's what your life already is. It's just a matter of appreciating what you're already doing. This is not some additional project. And this appreciation is more not to do something new and extra, but simply to forget yourself, just to forget to bring a self to your practice. But again, you can't intentionally forget a self. What you do is you just study your walking and study the mountains walking. Does this present have a size? Does this present have a... Present have a size? Have a size? Second. And a billion for the tenth, even for the second. What is the present?
[57:02]
You could say the moment... What do they say? They say in its fineness it fits into spacelessness. In its greatness it is utterly beyond location. However... It definitely is located. When we're talking in here, we hear numbers coming out of the laboratory that are very much like reverse of the big numbers that are in the sutras. Yeah. A billionth of a ten billionth of a second is the present of one particle that they recently hit with. How much is that again? One ten billionth of a ten billionth of a second there is a particle. The life of that part, the present But that particular particle was one thing beginning with the second. Are we supposed to be able to train to that present?
[58:08]
Or do we have a little more latitude like a day or a minute? An hour or a minute? Forty minutes. Forty minutes. We have a little bit more latitude. We work in the realm of words. That's where our work is. we're actually participating at that level you just spoke of. That's our life, too. Or like Gary's talking about, the cellular and then subcellular level, that's our life, too. But we don't do it... That's not our practice part. Our practice is in the realm of words. If we can just free ourselves from these words, then we're united with this, you know... So it's only 9900 for a second. Yeah, something like that. No, they found that out, did you know? That's two different things, though. That's two, isn't it? I mean, you know, it's like it's two different, what you're talking about. It's like, it's just, it's like, you know, it's not, I'm just kidding.
[59:14]
It's like... I've come up with another discovery that there's this other particle that's lifespan is 100 billionth of a hundred billionth. That's not possible. Yeah, but it's like that. It doesn't... No, he's right. No, so what I'm saying is, what I'm feeling is like, it's like useless information. To answer the question of how do we look at the President? Well, no, I mean, he's, you know, he's given us words, and I'm asking what the size... Yeah, and the words you're coming up with now, when you hear his words, those words, that's, no, this is what we use. We use his words, and we use your hearing his words, and use what you said. This is the realm we do our work in. This is... I think he did. I think he did. Well, the reason I brought it up is that if I were to stick Brian with a pen... Yes?
[60:17]
Well, in one hundredth of a second, your brain would register that. It would take you 99 hundredths of a second to realize you've been stuck. And that's my present definition of the present. I mean, that's where the words go around. That's where you do all the computation up here. And if you didn't have to do that, then you would be right there, wouldn't you? That's what they say the old Zen swordsmen had. They had a 9900th of a second drop on the opponent. They did? That's what, well, now that it's been revealed that if they were trained in that way, they could react in the 100th of a second where their opponent had to do all the calculations and come up with some words, how to hold the sword, how to strike, etc. That's just a description of physiology. Well, I'm physiological, aren't you? And that's just the slice of the pie. But it's still the slice of the pie, so you know.
[61:20]
Yeah, right. It's the slice of the pie, right. But it's not the pie. I mean, it's the slice of the pie. Well, yours is not the pie either. It's just the slice of the pie. No, it's not. It's true. It's true. It's the slice of the pie. I'm just physical. That's the economy. I understand that people run out of food at dinner time. Is that right? Not everybody ran out. Wow. It's snack time now.
[61:52]
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