In San Francisco. And in one sense that may sound like a kind of whimsical answer, which it is in a way, but it's also an answer which says a couple things. One is it says the facts of your daily life are the ultimate meaning of the Buddha Dharma, but it also, if you look at the price of gas in San Francisco, that connects to the whole issue of war and peace in the world. price of gas is not a trivial matter. People care a lot about it and are willing to go to war over it. So, in one sense, the price of rice in Lu Ling was the same. How much rice cost in China in the Tang Dynasty was not a light matter. Who had it and who had how much was always an issue of primary concern in politics and government

[01:01]

And yet it's also a very ordinary thing. We buy rice and gasoline. It's part of our ordinary life. And then in the verse of this case, the verse starts out by saying that accomplishing the work of great peace has no sign And sometimes it's translated as no particular sign or no fixed sign. But literally it says, has no sign. And again, this is a kind of Zen approach. Namely, we are concerned and we are dedicated to peace and its great work. But there's no, it has no sign. You can't say what it is really. We work for it, but it's very mysterious how to arrive at peace. In some ways war is easier to define.

[02:04]

But peace is very subtle. And how you achieve it is, there's no way you can say. And yet we approach a path of working for peace nonetheless. We may prefer to go on a path towards peace that has a sign, which is comforting to us. It has this sign. It's this way and it's not that way. But according to the Zen teachers, that's not the path to great peace. It's actually the path to war. So in such a practice, such a subtle and mysterious practice as working for peace, where we start out admitting right off that we don't have some fixed sign of how to arrive at it, We need these precepts to support us, to help us understand what Zen is. And in the process of translating this text on Zen precepts, I ran into another text on Zen precepts, which I didn't know about.

[03:14]

Which now I don't know what I'll do about that. Anyway, in the process of looking at a footnote on this text, The Zen teacher who wrote this text said, although there is no precept outside Zen, there are no precepts outside Zen. So Dogen Zenji says, you know, when you practice Zen or when you practice Zazen, you don't need to maintain precepts because there's no precept outside Zen. Zen is your life. And there's no precept in addition to your life. Your life as it really is, is the precept. So this guy says, although there's no precepts outside of Zen, there's also no Zen outside the precepts. If you think you can practice Zen without these precepts, well, there's no such thing as a Zen that's outside these precepts. But there's also no precepts outside Zen.

[04:17]

And then he said, when Buddha ancestors benefit sentient beings, they always use the pure precepts first. So last week we talked about the refuges. This week I'd like the first three precepts, the refuges. This week I'd like to talk about the three pure precepts. But also last week... One of the ways I talked about what it means to take refuge in Buddha is that we take refuge in Buddha, but we do so, Suzuki Roshi says, and other people say that you take refuge in Buddha, but we must do this with pure faith. And pure faith means that you have to take refuge in Buddha. with body, speech and mind. Not just in your head, not just in your voice, but with body, speech and mind.

[05:28]

In other words, completely. But another way to talk about taking refuge is that, with a pure faith, is that you give up everything else. When you take refuge in Buddha, you just abandon everything else but Buddha. Or you live with a body, speech and mind which is nothing but Buddha. And I get this expression, stop shopping. Give up all shopping. Moment by moment, don't try to shop around for another body, another speech or another mind. But also, With everybody's speech in mind you have, don't shop around for anything but Buddha. Always be concerned with the Buddha way. What is the Buddha way? So Wendy Johnson made a beautiful drawing here. It's a Safeway card.

[06:34]

No shopping, right? Can you see it? The balloon is a little balloon that says, got that, got that. Gone, gone. Okay? So I thought this is kind of a nice picture, but it's also kind of drab. And in a way, this part of practice is part of abandoning everything, of giving up everything, but taking refuge in Buddha. It's in a certain sense, it has a bitterness to it. It has a sadness to it. to give up everything but the Buddha way, to just go straight ahead every moment, with no side trips, there's a kind of sadness to it. No little entertainments anymore, folks. Just straight ahead. In other words, die. That's kind of a deadly picture. My proposal to you and my faith in Zen is that if you're willing to die, if you're willing to give up all shopping,

[07:47]

Then you can shop with all sentient beings. I propose to you that if you don't give up all shopping, you can have a pretty nice shopping spree. You can shop with some sentient beings, but you can't shop with all of them, unless you're willing to give up shopping. So once you give up shopping, you better try it. Then when you go shopping, you're willing to shop with anybody. You know what I mean? Look at this little guy here. This little guy on the other side. It's one little black spider, I think. Oh. And down at the bottom here are cockroaches, rats, mice. Gophers. No, gophers. Cats, dogs, grasshoppers. tied people in bodhisattvas.

[08:51]

There it is. If you're willing to give up all shopping and take refuge in Buddha, you can shop with all sentient beings. The problem with this picture is you've got to be careful here that if I put this up here I'm not promising something. and misleading you to think that something great is going to happen. But anyway, she drew it, not me. It's like a tasahara. At the beginning of practice period we have this initiation called pangaryo, which is that people sit in zendo pretty much all day for five days. During Sashim, we have little breaks every 40 minutes or so. But during Tangario, you're basically supposed to stay at your seat from early morning till breakfast, and then from after breakfast till lunch, and then from after lunch until dinner, and then from after dinner till night. You can go to the toilet, but you're really supposed to only leave when you go to the toilet.

[09:56]

Sometimes people have a lot of toilet work to do. But I don't know. It's the honor system, so. But some people, you know, really don't drink a lot of water and just sit there. And then after Tangardiya, people, they get out, and then they can follow the regular schedule, you know, and they can go to work and stuff like that. They're very happy to do that. Oh, work? Okay. Anything else? So now the three pure precepts. In the early Buddhist teaching, the three pure precepts were said to go like, you know, stop all evil, don't do all evil things, do all good, and

[11:01]

clarify the mind or purify the mind. That was the early expression which appears in the Dhammapada. The Mahayana Buddhist way of putting it is not to do evil, to do all good and to mature or develop all beings. So in the Mahayana tradition, the way to clarify your mind is to be concerned with developing other people. The Buddhas are the ones who are always thinking of how other people can grow and learn and be benefited. That way of that orientation clarifies the mind. So those are the three pure precepts, basically. The expression, the way that they're put in the Zen precepts is a little different.

[12:07]

Instead of saying avoiding evil, it's put positively. And in this text, this text that I'm using here, this essence of... the Buddha ancestors correctly transmitted precepts, Zen precepts. The first precept, instead of saying avoiding evil, they say it's the precept of fulfilling the rules and laws. So one way to say it, instead of avoiding evil, is to embrace and sustain right conduct. And then the other ones are the same, to fulfill all wholesome dharmas and to fulfill all beings. So, I don't know if I remember this right. I couldn't find my notes, but... On the first one, it's sometimes called Prati.

[13:09]

This is Sanskrit. So this is, you know, this is a regular, before Zen, this is just teaching the three pure precepts. Prati Moksha. Is the dot under? Yeah. Prati Moksha Samvara. That's the first one. Can you read that? P-R-A-T-I-M-O-K-S-A All right? Patimoksha. Somewhere. Patimoksha means literally, I believe, moksha means to turn or be liberated. It has to do with the face and the idea that the face is turned. In other words, you're liberated. Pratimoksha means conducive to moksha, conducive to liberation. And the pratimoksha is the word that they use in early Buddhism to refer to the regulations, to the precepts like don't kill and don't steal and don't lie and things like that.

[14:18]

All right? What people often think of as precepts are what the early Buddhists called pratimoksha. And sambhara means discipline or restraint. That's the Indian way of putting the first precept. The second one is called kushala. Kushala. Dharma. Samgraha. Samgraha. You can't see that either? Kushala, K-U-S with a slash over the top, A-L-A, Dharma, D-H-A-R-M-A, Samgraha, S-A-M-G-R-A-H-A. samvara.

[15:25]

That's also a samvara at the end. The discipline or the restraint of kushala, dharma, samgraha. Samgraha means, well, I'll do it the other way. Kushala means skillful or wholesome. It comes from the word kusa, or kusa grass. And the early Buddhist... used kusa grass for their meditation seat. They gathered kusa grass and sat on it. And the word kushula is derived from that word because kusa grass is like pompous grass. It has a sharp edge. And in order to collect the grass, you have to be skillful not to cut your hands. So the word skillful came from this dangerous grass. Which, again, I might mention that wholesomeness has to do with being able to skillfully handle dangerous things. And often skillfulness is developed by cutting your hands on dangerous things for a while and learning how to do it by trial and error.

[16:34]

So kushla means wholesome or skillful, and dharma means things, and saṃgaraḥ means to gather. I think even sometimes they say sarva kushala dharma or sarva kushala dharma sangraha. In other words, to gather together all of the good things, which is a different kind of practice from following rules or prohibitory precepts. It's doing things like practicing giving and patience and concentration. and enthusiasm and insight. These are the good dharmas to practice. The third one's called Sattva Kriya. Sattva Kriya Sangrava.

[17:40]

Maybe also Sarva Sattva Kriya. Sarva means all. Sanghara. Sarvasatva Kriya Sanghara. Discipline. Kriya means like to purify or to mature or to work. Like Kriya Yoga, does that mean kind of the yoga of working, is that what they call it? Mm-hmm. Good word. Yeah. I think it's realistic purification through Kriya. Purification through Kriya. Purification through work. So you kind of, you work, you try to get all beings to work through their thing, to mature and develop all beings. That's the third one. Okay? These are the three in Sanskrit. And there is a teaching... which I don't know where it came from exactly.

[18:44]

I don't know if it's, you know, I can't cite the Indian Mahayana sources of it, but it appears in early Zen in China that associates the three bodies of Buddha with these three precepts. And when I first heard of the association of the three bodies of Buddha with these three precepts, I was a little surprised. First of all, I guess not everybody knows what the three bodies of Buddha are, right? So, the three bodies of Buddha are, the first one's called? Dharma. Okay, if you want to say it. Okay. Anyway, usually we say, first of all, Dharmakaya, Buddha. Dharma means truth or reality. Kaya means body, and Buddha means Buddha. So the truth-bodied Buddha, that's the first one.

[19:47]

Or the reality-bodied, or true-bodied Buddha, true-bodied Buddha. And it would line up with... And it would line up with which ones, do you suppose? What? Well, you're right. That's right. Although I wouldn't have thought it was that one. And then the next body of Buddha is called Sambhogakaya Buddha. And Sambhogakaya means, I think bhoga means like, you know, orgasm. It means like mind-blowing bliss. Sambhogakaya means gathering together all the orgasms that there are. And that big body of orgasm, of total mind-blowing bliss, that's another body of Buddha. Wendy, I just used your drawing as a visual aid.

[20:51]

Thank you. And sometimes I call that the social club of bodhisattva. That's where bodhisattvas kind of hang out together, in that bliss body. It's also called sometimes the reward body. It's the body you get in reward for faith. So, for example, if you faithfully practice Buddhism, practice these precepts, one of the goodies you get out of that is you start to see... You enter this social club with the other bodhisattvas, and in that social club, guess what you see? What do you see when you see the other bodhisattvas? What do you think you see? Yourself. Yeah, and how do yourself look? Looks very happy and looks very beautiful. In other words, one of the rewards of practice is other people start looking really good.

[21:53]

Not necessarily pretty in the usual sense, better than that. They start looking really beautiful and you see how wonderful people are. That's a reward body. You also get to see, like when you see a Buddha, you don't just see a person anymore, you see all these rays shining out and stuff like that. So all these fantastic descriptions you heard of Buddhas, you get to start to see that stuff. which I actually, I've seen people see. I've never seen anything myself, although I sometimes say that as a joke. But I've met people. I've seen actually large groups of people who see that. Right here at Zen Center, like at certain times, I've run into people and they look at a person and they all see how beautiful the person is. You know, they say, what do you see there? And they all say, oh, this is a fantastic person. It's amazing what they see. They often see that right after a sashi, they see that. Not everybody necessarily in a session sees it, but sometimes like a high percentage see how beautiful a particular person is, and they really do see it.

[23:00]

This is the bliss body, which comes to you from, for example, the practice of just sitting. Being that stupid for a week, you get this reward. Okay, so then the next body is nirmanakaya body, which means, nirmana means transformation, or phantom. It's the phantom body. So the phantom body of Buddha is that a Buddha looks like a person, and looks like a person at a particular time. It's not a person in general, but a person at a particular moment. So the body of Buddha can be transformed into a particular person. Nirmana. N-I-R-M-A-N-A. Nirmana, K-A-Y-A, Buddha. So the first Buddha, the reality body Buddha is totally, you can't see it, aside from this.

[24:09]

Do you want to see it? This is it. Do you see it? This is it. It's the way this is. It's actually identical with the cosmos. The whole universe is this Dharmakaya Buddha. So if you want to see a Dharmakaya Buddha, look at what's happening. Look at the people in the room, look at the walls, open the window, look up at the sky. Whatever you see everywhere, what's happening in the totality of the universe, as much as you can see it, that's the Nirmanakaya Buddha, that's the Dharmakaya Buddha. Is that something that anybody can see? No, it's something nobody can see. you can't see it when you look for it all you see is the universe we all have diluted vision so nobody can see it because everyone's diluted no you can't see it because it is not anything in addition to what you see you're not seeing it you're just seeing reality but

[25:09]

We're just seeing reality. And you, each of us, being a particular transformation of reality as a Nirmanakaya Buddha, when we somehow can see that the world around us is the Dharmakaya Buddha, then the bridge, the fact that we human beings can see that, even though you can't see it, in other words, you see this as perfection, that then creates the bliss body. The bliss body connects these two bodies of the Nirmanakaya and the dharmakaya. Because of self-clinging, we can't believe that this is reality. We can't enjoy this as perfection. And we think that perfection would probably be something a little different from this. Right? We have that tendency. But when there's no more self-clinging, then we have this reward body which connects the ordinary world to us, we really appreciate it completely.

[26:16]

But it's not like people start actually twinkling a little bit, or their wrinkles go away, or they start being nicer people or anything. You just see that the way that they actually are is just exactly what they are, and there's nothing more than that. So the Dharmakaya, in fact, is the way things actually are, but the way things actually are is not the slightest bit in addition to the way they are. So if you reach, try to get a hold of Dharmakaya, you always come up with a thing. You come up with a piece of paper, or a flower, or a person's arm, or a sound of a bird, or the sight of the moon, or a painful feeling, or an emotion. You come up with something like that when you reach to get it. You can only get things. You can't get this body. But the way everything is, is the Dharmakaya. And when you realize that, then also you realize the Sambhogakaya. And the person who realizes it is the Nirmanakaya.

[27:19]

Okay, those are the three bodies of Buddha, and those are associated with these three precepts. So Stuart already guessed accurately, or he heard before, I don't know which, that the Dharmakaya is associated with the first precept, to avoid all evil. That's the Dharmakaya. To do all good, to gather together all wholesomeness, that's the bliss body, the Sambhogakaya Buddha. And to live for the benefit and work for the benefit of all beings, that's the Nirmanakaya Buddha. Only in the limited form of an individual person can you actually liberate beings. The dharmakaya can't liberate beings because nobody sees it. So as an individual person you can work for the benefit of beings. but it's hard to work for the benefit of beings unless you're sponsored by these other two bodies.

[28:26]

So the three bodies of Buddha, of course, are one body, and these three precepts are really one precept. These three precepts are what we call Buddha. spoken of in three parts. Just like the body of Buddha is not just a person, is not just a feeling of bliss, it's also reality. So these three bodies of Buddha make up what we call Buddha, and these three precepts make up what we call Buddha. And these three precepts correspond to the three bodies. Okay? This is something you might want to meditate on. And one other piece of information is that these three precepts and these three bodies are associated with time, past, present, and future. And there, too, I was a little surprised to hear how that was matched up. Which one of the precepts and which one of the Buddhas do you think is associated with past? You're right.

[29:35]

The reality body, the pratimoksha, the avoiding evil, not doing evil, that's associated with past. The bliss body of Buddha, the reward body of Buddha, and the practice of doing all good and accumulate all wholesome dharmas, that's associated with what? Huh? Ah, finally you got one wrong, good. It's associated with the future. And nirmanakaya, the practice of working to benefit people, is in the present. Because actually the only ones in the present is this particular person right here, right? And you can only work to help people in the present. But accumulating wholesomeness as a future orientation because

[30:38]

Although you can only help beings in the present, you can work to accumulate... You will... In order to accumulate all goodness, you cannot do it in the present. The full range of your good intentions cannot be found in the present. That's why you need to deal with the future. The full impact of your happiness in practice cannot be contained in the present. That's why it has to be projected into the endless future. So the body of vow, the body of eternal joy, that's the future, that's the second one. Bait. Bait. Eternal joy in the future. No, it's not so much that you'll get eternal joy in the future, it's just that the kind of joy we're talking about cannot be contained in the present. You can convert people in the present, but you can't express your dedication to them in the present completely.

[31:43]

You can tell someone you love them now and you can help them now, but there's actually, will you do it again tomorrow? The bliss body is that you can do it again tomorrow. You convert people in the present, but your dedication goes on beyond now and will happen again tomorrow. It's what sustains you. This bliss body is what sustains you beyond this present act of beneficence or kindness. So it's not so much you're going to get bliss in the future, but more your dedication to people cannot be expressed fully now. As a matter of fact, today you may not be very nice to people. Your monokai may be kind of flimsy today. Or, anyway, it may be not very nice, but actually quite helpful. But your dedication, your devotion to people, will go on beyond this current moment of attempt. You may screw up today, but you're not going to try again tomorrow, and you're going to try again the next day, and you're going to try again the next day. This is the spirit of the working to accumulate all good.

[32:45]

You cannot accumulate all good right now, but you can convert a being right now. Okay, anyway, I just thought I might mention those teachings about that. So how does reality, Dharmakaya, take on the past? Oh yeah, I thought about that too. Well, this is just talk, okay, I'm just going to say this is true, okay. I'm just saying that... The past is really big. Precept, this kind of precept have to do with some, I said to the elders that were visiting, the elder hostel people, about precept, what does precept mean? One of the people said, a prior conclusion. Precept means written before. A bit of a prescriptus, something like that. And this other guy said, a prior conclusion.

[33:50]

By watching the behavior of beings over a long time, human beings figured out, they came to a conclusion and set up these kinds of precepts. You cannot come to a conclusion about what will be good. That's something we have to keep working on in the future. But what doesn't work, what is contradictory to life, has been concluded. So, of course, killing is contradictory to life, stealing is contradictory to life, and so on. This has been concluded in the past. And I deny that, but the accumulation of all the past experiments and trials that living beings have done, that's the reality body. The fact that things work the way they work is well established. The laws of karma have been worked out. The fact that things are really the way they are, and there's no alternative, And that the way things are is not the slight bit in addition to the way things are. And there's no reality that's kind of like looming up above things. That's set by all the past that's ever happened.

[34:54]

And that's why, in a way, the present is ironclad. You've got to just kind of like accept it and work with it as it is. As the devil in the form of... What's his name? Jack Nicholson says, well... We kind of, the kind of the cards are dealt from upstairs. Down here we play the odds. Yeah. I feel like you're talking about this like it's common knowledge. What's common knowledge? That things are the way that you're explaining them to be. Oh, I don't mean to say that. So what do you think is common knowledge? I would think common knowledge is that people think that reality is something other than this. That good news is something other than this, right? Good news would be to find out something that's not this. Yeah.

[35:56]

That seems to be common knowledge, a common opinion. Yeah. Yeah. Is this kind of what they were talking about, the hearings of Jeff Thomas, about natural law, and that our Constitution is based on higher laws than man-made laws? It reminded me of what you were talking about, precepts. I don't know exactly what they meant there, but there are higher laws than man-made laws. It's true. I'm not, I shouldn't say it's true. I mean, I think that's true. For example, it just made me think that one of the things I wrote on one of the person's rocks was this, mountains, rivers, grasses, and trees. And I wrote that partly because Mrs. Suzuki told me one time she met this famous Japanese actor and whenever he was, whenever he's asked to do some calligraphy for people, this is what he writes.

[36:58]

This is what he thinks about all the time when he's acting. He thinks about this all the time. I don't know if this relates to what both of you are saying, but in other words, what comes to my mind is that if you want to be beneficial to people, you shouldn't think about people. If you're really concerned for people, you should never think about people. Because when you think about people, you think about your dream about people. So you should give up your dream about people and just think about mountains and rivers and grass and trees, and then you'll be able to see what people are. That was what this guy said. So give up your idea of people if you want to really meet people. Instead of going around saying, oh, I'm going to think about people, or those are people. In other words, what I see here, this is the people I'm thinking about. If I'm really dedicated to people, I'll think about mountains and trees and grasses and rivers, and then maybe by reversing the way I think about people, thinking about it in a way that's not my habit, maybe I'll get illuminated about what people are.

[38:07]

Is that what you mean by delusions, by the way? Is what what I mean by delusions? that thinking about people the way we normally think about people is a delusion? Yes. The way we think about people as we normally think about people is a delusion. And if you believe that the way you usually think about people is real, then you have a delusion about a delusion. But if you know that the way we usually think about people is delusion, you have a chance of waking up. Buddhas go around having delusions about people too. But they wake up to that in the midst of those delusions. And one of the ways they do it is by reversing the way they think, right in the middle of those delusions. And the main reversal that you make when you're in the midst of delusions is to stop thinking that delusions are real. Because most people not only have delusions, but they think they're reality. So is that why... What do you mean?

[39:13]

Pardon? So is that why it would be connected with the precept of avoiding evil? Is that why the Dharmakaya is connected with the precept of avoiding evil? I didn't... Please tell me how that... Make the link for me. Well, to not... to not have to speak of what reality is. Yeah. Yeah. Yes, to not have fixed views about what reality is, is to avoid evil. And to avoid evil is not to have fixed ideas about what reality is, and therefore you can see what reality is, rather than what you sort of planned on it being, or what you thought it was going to be. And you avoided evil by doing a practice. One of the ways you avoid evil is by doing good practices, like reversing the way you're thinking. Well, I want to... Could you give an example of reversing thinking?

[40:32]

Yeah, go around thinking about mountains, rivers, grasses and trees all the time. That's a reversal of thinking. Or go around all the time admitting that what you see, you think actually exists. You catch yourself at attributing inherent existence to everything. Try to see how you think everything really exists, how all these delusions are actual realities. By catching yourself at that, that's a reversal of the way you usually think. Because the way we usually think is we go around and do it, and then we just believe it. We don't even notice that we're doing it. We just do it without noticing. To notice that you're doing it and to admit that we really think these things that we see are real, like we think people who are mean to us are really mean, and we think the people who are nice to us are really nice. In other words, we have a delusion or illusion, somebody's being nice to me, and we believe they're really being nice, so we feel happy. We see somebody being cruel to us, we have the illusion that they're being cruel, we believe it, and we want to kill them. But in both cases, we believe that's really true.

[41:36]

We believe there's really something to that. To catch yourself at that belief and to admit it would be reversing the way you're thinking. So you're saying it's impossible for people to abuse us? Am I saying it's possible? Impossible for people to really abuse us? It's just a delusion? Well, I say... Let me read this to you, okay? This is the commentary on the three pure precepts, okay? First precept of fulfilling good rules. So what do you have? You have... Do you have that? You don't have that in here, huh? Oh, there it is. Okay. So, the three collective pure precepts. Fulfilling rules and laws. It is the abode of the laws of all Buddhas.

[42:39]

It is the source of laws of all Buddhas. Okay? That sounds like the Dharmakaya, the truth body. The precept of fulfilling wholesomeness. It is the teaching of anuttara samyak sambodhi, teaching of unsurpassed perfect enlightenment and the path of the practicer and what is practiced. That's all the good things. And that's the body of bliss. The precept of fulfilling all beings, it is transcending the profane and holy. Not getting caught in profane and holy. Avoiding both of those things. And taking self and others across the shore, to the other shore, okay? Now the commentary here says... The repentance procedure appears, in other words, you do a repentance procedure, and then you take the three refuges and the three pure precepts.

[43:45]

And then he says there's nothing that's not included. If you do those three things, repentance, refuge, and these three precepts, that takes care of it all. He also says that starting with the repentance procedures, these three precepts, these three refuges, and these three cumulative pure precepts are not separate from, guess what? Buddha. Buddha, Zazen. But what do you think now, Tom? Starting with repentance, the repentance procedure, and then taking refuge in the three treasures, and then the three pure precepts are not separate from what? Delusion. Okay? They are not separate from delusion. Or one may say that before the deluded aspects have departed, the true aspects have arrived.

[44:57]

Emancipation is attained in the midst of delusion. So if you say, does that mean, what did you say? I say if someone is beating me and I say it's a delusion, do I stand there and let them beat me? Right. Okay, so somebody's beating on me. So what do you want to know? I want to know whether I should give them... So I think they're beating on me. That's my opinion of what's going on. Is it just I think? Is it just a delusion of I think? Oh, maybe. Do they think they're beating on me? Probably not. Well, you want to have that they don't and I do? Want to have it be that one? Sure. Okay. He's doing something to me and I say he's beating me. He doesn't think he's beating me, right? He thinks he's being nice to me. Let's just say that, shall we? How about realistically? Let's say he thinks he's doing something you deserve.

[46:03]

Yeah, right, like your father beating you. He says, this hurts me more than it hurts you. I'm doing this for your own good. Okay, I'm not really beating you. This is love, right? Like when the Russians came into Czechoslovakia, they said, we love you, we're liberating you. The Czechs said, please go home. No, we can't, we love you, this is what we're doing to help you. Okay, anyway, the person thinks they're doing something to favor for you, you feel that they're abusing you. So what do you want to know? You want to know if you're deluded? Yes. What do you think? Do you think that's not delusion? Oh, I think I am deluded. I'm just wondering. No, in that case, do you think that's a case of delusion or not? Or do you think it's reality? At this point I'm asking. I don't know. Well, I don't know either. Now that's a place to start. To know whether that... We're sitting here talking to know after we've created this phantasmic oracle little story here, for suddenly one of us to know what's right and wrong.

[47:11]

That's what we call self-righteousness. That's a big... Yeah, we don't want to be bigots. So anyway, so anybody have any clear examples of anything? It mostly comes from here, you know? So now do I think I'm being abusive to somebody? Let's start with that. Traditionally that would be sort of a kind of a thing, right? You are either Think you're really benefiting a real entity or think you're really abusing a real entity or something? Isn't that kind of one of those typical watch-out sorts of situations? Yeah. One would be think you're benefiting people. That would be a watch-out. Bodhisattvas do not go around thinking, I'm benefiting people. If a bodhisattva thinks they're benefiting a people, they're not benefiting a people.

[48:13]

Matter of fact, they're not even a bodhisattva at that time. What? Why? How? Before I answer that, I want to make clear bodhisattvas are constantly living the vow of wanting to benefit people. Okay, that's their vow. That's their total commitment. But they rarely, I shouldn't say rarely, anyway, when they think that they're benefiting people, at that moment they're not a bodhisattva anymore. And how is that? Because to have an idea of self and other means you're not a bodhisattva. You are not a bodhisattva at that time, you are just a regular sentient being. You may have the vow to be a bodhisattva at that time, which is good, But that moment you're not really a bodhisattva.

[49:17]

You're what you call a titular bodhisattva or a nominal, nominal bodhisattva. A real bodhisattva is someone who's not only committed to help people but doesn't think in terms of self and other. And the way they practice in order to not think in terms of self and others is they think of others first. as a kind of exercise to balance the tendency to think of self and others. But if they then think of others and think there really is a thing called others and then think they're helping the thing called others and then they're a thing called helping the thing called others, that is simply delusion. It's not helping anybody. As a matter of fact, it's hurting the bodhisattva at least and probably hurting the other person. Isn't it? possible to have the idea of helping others and still not, and non-dualistically? I mean, I can see the trap. Yes, it is possible. I can see the trap, but what about the other possible non-dualistic, isn't it? It is possible to think that.

[50:20]

Like a bodhisattva, I sometimes say bodhisattvas think on their birthday that they're helping people. Once a year you can think that. It's okay. Okay. But people go around saying, I'm helping people and I'm being helpful. This is not a bodhisattva. This is a, I don't know, what do you want to call that? I'm not going to say, huh? A titular bodhisattva. Huh? That's a titular. No, that's not even a titular bodhisattva. Titular bodhisattvas are people who want to help people, but don't really, but don't really want to do what's required. At the moment that you think that way, that state of mind is antithetical to helping people. because actually you're showing people the exact problem that we all have. In other words, you're taking yourself seriously, and you're showing them, okay, you want to see how to have problems? Watch me. I think I'm helping you. Now, you think that way, too, and we'll be two miserable people. But you want to show people how to help themselves, and you stop thinking that you're helping them.

[51:22]

Start thinking of grasses and trees and mountains and rivers. That's one way you can try to help people. In other words, abandon your usual modes of thought, self and other. Or another way to do it is admit that you think in terms of self and others, but admit that that's a delusory process that you are totally caught in. So rather than really thinking you're helping other people, why don't you admit that you're totally confused by that way of thinking? That will help people. See the difference between thinking you're helping people and admitting that that way of thinking is erroneous? When you think you're helping people, that's something you should confess and repent yourself of. You have committed, you've gotten off the track when you think that way. This is something you should catch yourself at. and admit. When you catch yourself and admit, now you're ready to start over again. Starting over again would mean, I don't know how to help people, but I want to. That's very helpful. People like that are really helpful. I've met a few. They want to help people. You can feel they want to help people, but they don't know how.

[52:24]

They don't even know who people are. They don't even know what other people are. Matter of fact, they don't even see any other people. This is what a bodhisattva is. They don't see any other people. But they're totally dedicated to them. To be totally dedicated to other people without thinking that there are other people, this is the miracle of Mahayana Buddhism. There is such a path. However, if you think in that practice, if you think, oh, there's another person and I want to help him, that's not a problem. but wanting to help them. The thinking of the other person is the problem. And then to think, I'm helping the other person is really aggravating it. But that's okay if I admit it and say, okay, I missed, I'm off the track, and I'll go back home again and make my vow again, and I'll probably slip again. But if I keep admitting, eventually I'll get the hang of it, and pretty soon I'll stop believing that there really is somebody else. Is this at all similar to the, you know, first of all you see mountains as mountains and rivers as rivers, and then mountains as rivers and rivers as mountains, and then you go back and see mountains as mountains and rivers as rivers, so after you learn that... That's a new version of it.

[53:31]

I didn't like that. Everybody's real loose tonight. Is it similar to that? Yes, it is. It's very similar. Right, after you see the delusion, then it's like, then it's not a sickness or a poison. Speaking that way again. Once you see sickness as sickness and poison as poison, it's still sickness as sickness and poison as poison, but sickness as sickness is not anything at all. But you have to admit that's what it is, and then you're free of it. So you can't use the same words but in a relative way. rather than before you were using them in an absolute way. So that, you know, if you don't feel that separation from a person that you're helping, isn't there an inactive state of consciousness where... If you don't feel a separation from a person, then probably you're denying that you feel a separation from a person.

[54:42]

Normal human beings feel separation from people. So if you don't feel that, if so many people don't feel that, well, that's fine, but you're kind of weird if you don't. Normal people feel separation. Bodhisattvas admit that that feeling separation is a delusion, and if they believe in it, they believe that they believe their delusions, and they confess that. But it isn't that you don't feel the separation. It just seems so fantastical then. What's fantastical? Like nobody's a bodhisattva. That's right, nobody's a bodhisattva. There is no such thing as a bodhisattva. There's no such thing as a bodhisattva. There's no such thing as a sentient being and there's no such thing as a Buddha. If there's no such thing as dharmas, you don't get to like have the Buddhas are such a thing.

[55:44]

No, there's no such thing as anything. All dharmas are empty, including bodhisattvas. But those people have signed up for that course. They said, okay, I'm signing up for a practice where I'm going to be, I'm not going to be such a thing as what I am. Other people are not going to be what they are. And I'm also not going to then try to pretend like I'm not believing that I am what I am, that I think other people are separate. I'm not going to try to not be a human being. If you try to not be a human being, that would be based on that you believe that human beings are the way you think they are. And you're going to try not to be that way. Accepting things as they are is based on the fact that they're empty. If you think that they're real, you won't be able to accept them. Matter of fact, you shouldn't. If things were really the way they were, we should change things. Then there's intention and there's action, there's no rest in between. It's just intention and action, intention and action.

[56:46]

Well, they're simultaneous, intention and action. Well, that's another thing I just want to mention, is that karma, there's three kinds of karma, body, speech and mind, and the thought karma always produces the body and the speech. You never just do a physical action or a, or a, what's your name, Jigar, for a spoof, but there's a thought that perceives it, even though you may not be conscious of it. Okay? So there's an intention, and then there's action. And action that emerges from belief in self is harmful. And, of course, there's hierarchies of harmfulness, There's some extremely harmful things and some less harmful things, but basically, actions that emerge from belief in self cause trouble. Actions that emerge from realizing that self is an illusion and not believing in it, from understanding what the self is, those are acts of compassion.

[57:49]

Bodhisattvas understand that there is no graspable self, and therefore, if there's no graspable self, there's no way to establish an other. If there's no clear, fixed thing called a self, then there's not a clear, fixed thing called an other. Although, they still are completely involved, like everybody else, in seeing a self and seeing an other. Just like everybody else. It is that they understand and have studied this situation so clearly that they kind of forget what they're seeing. They can't really remember how to believe in it. So therefore, they're a little different in the way they act because they have studied the self so much that they realize what it is and therefore they don't cling to it. But they don't mess around with their nervous system and the way they think. They think just like we do. However, there is a change that occurs and a transformation that occurs and there is liberation. But the liberation they get into is not by changing things,

[58:51]

like fixing them up, the liberation is not like different from this. And yet there's liberation. So if you say, well, what is liberation? Or what is it? Then we're not supposed to say it's this or that. And then you say, well, if you're not going to say what it is, then isn't there any liberation? Isn't there any transformation? We don't say that there isn't. We just say you can't defile it. You can't defile the liberation. You can't defile the freedom. That's all. So when you make decisions about beneficial action or action, just that, it's not doing something for something out there, just what is wholesome now, not doing something wholesome for that person out there.

[59:59]

But we make decisions about beneficial wholesome action. Yes, you mean when you decide you want to do something wholesome? Yeah, in the moment. Wanting to do something wholesome is not the same as doing something wholesome. Right? Wanting to do something wholesome is also not the same as deciding that something is wholesome. Wholesomeness is not something I get to decide by myself, I'm sorry. I can want to be wholesome and then do something which I want to be wholesome, but if I decide by myself that it is wholesome, that's not true. I cannot decide myself what is wholesome. Wholesomeness has to do with what other people think of it. Therefore, I intend to do wholesome things, or I don't. Let's say I do. Let's say I try to like, one, two, three, excuse me, I'm not teasing anybody, but I'm going to try to make a wholesome sound.

[61:06]

Listen. I'm sorry. That was my attempt to do something wholesome. Was it wholesome? I don't know. What do you think? Yeah. Thank you. I got one wholesome vote there. Anybody else think it was unwholesome? You said I'm sorry? Yeah. That's wholesome, isn't it? Wholesome? Yeah. But I wasn't sure myself whether that was wholesome or not. And actually, yes? Excuse me. Vowing to do all good is, generally speaking, quite wholesome, I think. That's an example of something I think is wholesome. Yeah, what I'm saying is that you can't figure it out by yourself, even. Even with the precepts? Even with the precepts. Yeah, even with the precepts.

[62:08]

This is the opinion of all past human beings, so I'm not really doing it just on my own. Well, like, for example, not killing. What are you going to do about that one? Are you going to say that if you kill anything, it's unwholesome? Is that going to be the way you're going to figure it out? I wouldn't figure it out, but if I were about to kill something, I might stop without asking another person what they thought about it. Because I have the precepts and I have... Okay. I'm not saying you ask somebody before you do it, necessarily. I'm just saying, let's say you don't kill it. Okay? And so then, I don't think anybody's going to generally speak, and people aren't going to fault you for that. But what if you do kill it? Then is it unwholesome? Yes. Yeah. What if somebody else kills it? Is it unwholesome? Yeah, so you can't tell what's wholesome for them, right? Right, I think that's good that you don't. So maybe you think you know for yourself, but not for others.

[63:11]

Yeah, and I think it's really important, though, that I do think I know it for myself. So then when you didn't kill the thing, you thought that was wholesome? Yeah. Yeah, and I think that's not so good. I thought it was really good that you didn't think the other person was unwholesome. That's really good that you didn't presume. Well, I got 50%. But to not kill something, like, for example, that means you could sort of, like, spend the whole day and not kill anything, and then you could conclude today I was wholesome. Oh, that's completely different than what I actually meant. I meant in... Well, I don't mean to corner you. I'm just saying that to restrain yourself from killing something, which I think is good that you did that, then to say yourself that was wholesome, I don't know if you can say that. The act is wholesome to that. Not that I am wholesome. It's different. Even that the act was wholesome. Isn't it all that you can say is that I just didn't kill something that... Yeah, you can say, I didn't kill anything. As far as I know, I didn't kill anything. And there were several times where I almost did and I didn't.

[64:14]

I did that. But, again, it doesn't seem... I haven't heard that... What did you say? I haven't heard... From what I've studied, I haven't heard Bodhisattvas walking around saying, today I was wholesome. No. I don't hear them say that. I do hear them say, today I did some unwholesome things. And they might not be right about that, But anyway, they got the right idea of confessing that they might have gotten off a little bit. And the main way bodhisattvas get off is by violating these precepts, that they think they violate them, and also that they have self-attachments. That's the main way they break them. Self-attachment means you're not practicing good. And then you can violate these precepts by harming people or whatever. Sometimes I blew it here, I blew it there. They confess their faults, but they don't go around saying that they did good. That's a precept which says not to praise self at the expense of others. Now, it's okay to say I slept well, or I ate a good dinner, or I ate dinner well, I didn't spill on myself.

[65:20]

That's okay. But you've got to be careful when you say that because maybe the person next to you did spill on herself, right? So when you praise yourself, it's good to praise yourself not in isolation of other people. So, like, today I ate dinner without spilling myself, but it was partly because, you know, it was not a very, it wasn't, you know, it was a well-prepared meal in such a way that it wasn't too difficult, and nobody yelled at me while I was eating. With aid of all beings, I would manage not to spill myself. That's pretty good. That way of talking, then I sort of feel good about what I did, but I don't necessarily say that I did a wholesome thing. But still, I appreciate my success. That's okay, as long as I don't think I did it all by myself. You know, I also think the good and the bad is somehow added, because if I don't kill today, or leave out the eye, if no action of killing, I mean, it's impossible not to have no action of killing. I wouldn't live today. Because every time I breathe, I kill. There's bacteria I'm annihilating.

[66:22]

But I accept that the same way as I accept when I'm walking along with a frog there, I stop my foot from falling on it. Thank you. I mean, it's not like it's good or bad. It's not like it's good or bad? It's not like I praise myself or blame myself. To tell you the truth, I think that stepping on frogs is bad myself. Don't you think so? And that's your shit? I think killing frogs is bad, don't you think so? I try not to step on frogs. Well, I'm just asking a question. I think that stepping on frogs is bad. That's what I think. What do you think? I try not to think too bad. I try to think that stepping on frogs feels better than stepping on frogs. Okay, fine. For a lot of reasons. Fine. I would say that the only way to practice the precepts is that if you're not doing them by yourself, that it's impossible for one person not to kill. The only way not to kill is if you're practicing with everybody.

[67:24]

If you practice with everybody, it is possible not to kill. But one person by herself cannot avoid killing, I don't think. One person by herself cannot avoid stealing, because how could you avoid stealing? Because everything you get, if you're practicing by yourself, could potentially be taken without the people's permission. They have to give it to you. Therefore, in order to get anything without stealing it, it has to be given to you. And in order for it to be given to you, somebody has to give it to you. Without them giving it to you, you cannot avoid stealing. Therefore, only by the aid of all beings can you avoid stealing. Right? But if you think in terms of all beings cooperating with you, then you can follow these precepts. But it's not you following them by yourself. To think that you kill something without everybody cooperating with you, to think that the being dies in relationship with you without that being cooperating with you, I would say that's what's called violating the precepts. Just to think in terms of yourself is violating the precept.

[68:28]

Everything that comes from thinking in terms of yourself is basically, to some extent, violating these precepts. So, for me to think I step on a frog, basically, even if I don't step on a frog, for me to think I avoided stepping on a frog is breaking a different precept. If not, I didn't kill the frog, that's for sure. Frog survived, but I broke another precept. You're practicing with all beings. Is it even possible to break precepts? It is not possible to break precepts. Precepts, in fact, are impossible to break because you do practice with all beings. Wrongdoing can never be established. That's why it's called wrong. Wrong means wrong, yet that doesn't happen. Wrong does not happen. But if you think in terms of self, right doesn't happen. And in fact, by thinking in terms of self, although wrong cannot be established, by thinking in terms of self, you are totally involved in wrong.

[69:31]

Wrong does not exist, but you get totally involved in what doesn't exist, because you think in terms of self. Wrong does not exist, but you are totally caught up in wrong. because you think in terms of self, and you believe in self, and you act in that. Therefore, what you do is not wrong, but you're involved in something that doesn't exist. And that's wrong. That's error. Mistake, wrong, suffering. And if you get involved in wrong, then... All your good practices and all the stuff you're trying to do get eroded and set backwards and your practice gets dislodged and confused and your energy gets dispersed and you get depressed and other people get upset and it's just a big mess because we're involved in wrong. Because we're involved in something that doesn't exist.

[70:32]

Therefore, we should not do wrong. We should stay away from wrong. We should avoid wrongdoing. We should end wrong. we should end being involved in what doesn't exist. Which is very difficult because you have to abandon all self-clinging in order to not get off track. And the way to involve self-clinging is to practice a third precept, namely always think in terms of developing other people. Because if you're always developing other people, then you develop the other people to practice with you, or you develop your understanding that other people are practicing with you, and then you appreciate how they're helping you live your life, and then you don't break the precepts. So not getting involved in wrong, again, is not shopping. Is that it? Yeah. How does one approach helping other people without...

[71:33]

Thinking that they're helping other people. Well, like right now, I'm going to try to approach you and try to help you now, okay? You won't? I'm going to right now. I'm trying to right now help you. Yeah? This is an experiment right now. I'm going to try to help you. So now what am I supposed to avoid doing now at this time? Well, earlier you said you're supposed, when a bodhisattva thinks that he's helping someone, he's not helping someone. Yeah, so right now, I don't think I'm helping you. I'm wanting to help you right now. I'm trying to help you. I'm wanting to help you. I want to help you. But I'm not thinking that I'm helping you. Believe me. Do me that favor. I don't believe you. I really don't. But I want to. I want to help you and I'm not thinking the thought that I am helping you.

[72:39]

I could think the thought. Want me to think it? I couldn't even think it because you think we're laughing to me. But I could think the thought I'm helping you. I have thought that, I must admit, I confess, I have thought I've helped people in the past. I've slipped into that. And guess what happens after I slip into that one? Then when they do certain things, it's very hard for me. to accept what they're doing. I'm much more flexible if I just want to help people but don't think I am. So you're saying that's okay. What's okay? To want. Wanting is absolutely essential if you want to be awakened. If you want to be enlightened you have to primarily want to help people. That should be your main thing in life. What Buddhists are always thinking about They're always thinking about helping people. That's what Buddhists think about. That's what bodhisattvas who are training to be Buddhas, they're always thinking about helping people. I want to help people. I love people. I want to help people. And also I hate people. But bodhisattvas do not.

[73:46]

They do not go around thinking that they are helping people. They don't do that. That's a waste of time. Well, why think that? And I say, okay, you can think it on your birthday. It's okay on your birthday to think, I help people. It's my line of work. What do you do for a living? I help people. It's okay to think that once in a while. But it's also okay to forget a few years, not even think about it for several years. It's okay to forget it. It doesn't help to think you're helping people. It does sometimes, it is sometimes encouraged. I often get encouraged when I see people being helped. which means I see people mature. That makes me very happy when I see people developing and getting happy and taking care of themselves and not spilling their food on themselves. I feel happy. It's great. I don't take it personally. I try not to, although sometimes I think, well, I was in the neighborhood when it happened. But I generally speaking do not go around here thinking I'm helping people. I don't spend much time doing that. I do think sometimes, which is similar, while I'm dedicating my life to helping people, so even if I don't, still I'm putting, I'm getting my whole life energy and all my, I'm getting total emotional involvement in this project.

[74:56]

So then if you're not reciprocating, I might feel like, well, how come you're not doing your part or something like that? But I don't necessarily think I am helping. But this other part even kind of slips into that, of I'm making all this effort. Anyway, I'm trying to help you, but I have not yet thought I have helped you. And if you say to me, boy, you're really helpful, then I have to watch out for that and think, oh, I am? Oh. So I have to watch that. Bodhisattva, I have to watch out for that. It seems like it's really a hard thing to figure out what is helping someone. You don't have to figure out what's helping people. You just try. Isn't that part of trying? To figure it out? Figuring it out, I don't think it's part of trying, because how are you going to figure it out? Let's say you're trying to help somebody, okay? And you try and you try, and then the person's sort of like, let's say they're, I don't know what, let's say they're kind of causing a lot of trouble in the world, okay?

[76:00]

Let's say they beat up people a lot, and steal, and hurt people. And you try to help them, okay? And let's say you notice that they stop beating people up. You notice they stop hurting people. You don't have to work that hard to figure out that something's happened in the person. It doesn't matter for you to figure out that you helped them. The important thing is the person's developing. And then let's say the person becomes completely enlightened, and you see this great, wonderful person in the world. What's important is that the person has become this Buddha. It doesn't matter whether you helped them. The point is you tried to help them, and somehow they were helped. You don't have to figure out that they were helped. That's not necessary. If you can't figure it out and you never figured out that they were helping people and they were helping people, that's okay that you couldn't figure it out. The important thing is that they are transformed and they do become beneficent. The fact that you don't notice it, especially if they're your student, is probably good. Can you imagine a teacher that had students, all these beneficent Buddhas were the students and they never even noticed that they were that great?

[77:01]

This would be amazing. Wonderful. And many generations later they say, this person had eight Buddha disciples, and he didn't even notice it, or she didn't even notice it. No problem. The point is, it fruits all that counts. Not that the person who was helping them, or again, that person who was helping them sort of as the chief of staff of all sentient beings. One person doesn't help you. One person helps you in a context that So if someone's dedicated to your welfare, living their life to help you, to help you develop, this is your teacher, okay? But they do not necessarily ever think they help you and they're not necessarily ever figuring out that they're helping you. The important thing is that they are helping you and they watch to see, are you developing? They're always watching that. And if they notice you're developing, they feel happy. But they don't necessarily figure out that you're developing. They just see it. It's not a figuring. Do they try to look away at what action might harm you?

[78:04]

Definitely. Definitely. So they try to figure that out. They try to figure that out. And they go ask their friends. They say, now, if I say this to this student, if they think it might be not good, they ask, now, if I say this to this student, do you think that will be helpful? The person says, I think it would be helpful. So you try it. But you don't know. And if you think it's not going to be helpful, you don't do it. If you think it is going to be helpful, well, give it a try. But you don't know and you don't say after you succeed. You don't say. You're not supposed to say. It says in the books, don't say after you help somebody, oh, I helped them. It says you're not supposed to do that. That's arrogance. That's aggregating, abrogating arrogance. to yourself the function of helping a person but one person doesn't help another person all by of their lonesome one person helps through the support of other people like everybody helps you help people like if you're a doctor many people help you help the person you don't do it all by yourself and for you to help people is good but for you to think you did it by yourself is again this dualistic thing and you're not a bodhisattva again

[79:15]

It still may be good that you fixed their leg. That's good. But for you to think you did it is not good. That's extra. And that sets you back. That undermines this good thing you did, this helpful thing you did. For you to be thinking that it was helpful. And again, it's OK to think it's helpful if you realize that everybody helped you. What you're talking about is attachment to ego, isn't it? Yes, definitely. That's what I'm talking about. It seems if you just subtract a subject-object, then that would be it, too. That would be it, but that would be... Subject, and we have an object like... Subtract it. Like I am helping you, or you are helping me, but if there isn't a subject-object, and it's just helping, that's in the lines of the action of a Bodhisattva. Right. And just helping would be going both directions, too. Right?

[80:17]

It wouldn't be that I was helping you any more than you were helping me. And that's the way it is when you help people. I'm not saying there isn't any helping. I just said you don't think about... When you help people, you're helped by them as much as they're helped by you. You feel as good as they do. Okay? But again, when he says subtract, don't think that subtract means that it's not there. Because if it's not there, then you're not a bodhisattva. Because bodhisattva has entered into the mud where there is self and other. They live in that polluted world of discriminating mind. So subtracting doesn't mean that you don't see another person over there. Subtracting means that you know that this is a delusion. The way to subtract is to admit that this is a delusion. Yeah. So what about thank you? I mean... Thank you. Yeah, I mean, so somebody does something good for somebody and they realize that that person and all other sentient beings helped them. Yeah. Yet you're there, okay?

[81:19]

Yeah. So you say, thank you. Is that delusionary? Well, wait a second. You mean somebody does something good for me and I realize... You said you do something good for me and I realize that all sentient beings helped you? Kind of recipient of your kindness. And yet I realize that all sentient beings helped you? Which, you know, who's who? No. Either way is okay. You helped me. I have this realization that, yes, you did help me, but there are all kinds of other factors involved in helping me. But it's important for me to say thank you. It sure is. Because I can't address all other sentient beings. Well, yeah, it's hard for you anyway. Yeah, so you say thank you to me. And I also think, oh, well, he's thanking me. But I might also say, well, you're thanking me on behalf of the rest of the universe. And sometimes people come and say to me, I want to say thank you. I don't know who I want to say thank you to, but I want to say thank you to somebody.

[82:20]

And I just want to say thank you. And sometimes I feel like, what about me? LAUGHTER But, you know, it's kind of enlightening to put it that way, so I thought you were left out. You know? But the other way is also, if you thank me, then I have to remember, oh, well, I'm not left out in this case, but really he's thanking all of Zen Center. He's thanking all the wonderful teachers that have ever existed, all the people that are helping us right now, all the donors, and he's also thanking himself. You know? I have to remember that, not to aggregate this this gift of appreciation just to me. I have to sort of say, okay, everybody, I'm sharing it with you all. And then if somebody says, well, did anything happen today? I say, yeah, well, Alan Hawkins thanked me today. But when I say it, I say it, and by the way, I want to thank you for helping me You know, you help me do that thing for him. You know, I really realized that. And then I say thank you to a whole bunch of people because you said thank you to me.

[83:23]

That's the spirit of bodhisattva. Totally stupid. That's true on that note. On that note. You see? May you marry an angel.

[83:33]

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