And the question is, what is your ultimate concern? Ultimate means the final, or in the end, what is your concern? But it also means originally or fundamentally. So I ask it in both those senses. What is originally or fundamentally your concern? And what will finally be, in the end?

[01:04]

What will you be, what do you think, what do you feel will be your ultimate concern? I've asked that question of myself and others for some time, and I understand that you may not have a ready answer to that question, but still I ask it. At the beginning, and at the end. The word concern has an interesting etymology.

[02:15]

I think its first meaning is, what are you engaged with, what are you involved with? Ultimately, what are you engaged with, what are you involved with? The etymology is, to be mixed in a sieve, kan, to be mixed or together, and sere, a sieve. What you're mixed together with in a sieve before the sifting. What you're together with before the mind moves, before anything happens. This is the root of the word concern.

[03:22]

What are you related with, originally and finally? So I might say that Zen teachings and practices are concerned with this ultimate concern. Our inquiring into our heart or our mind before any distinction has arisen.

[04:35]

A distinction between self and other, distinction between right and wrong, high and low, enlightenment and delusion. So I'm not telling you at all what your ultimate concern would be, but I just want to tell you my ultimate concern is this mind, our mind, this heart, before the distinction between enlightenment and delusion has occurred. And this mind, I propose for you to consider, is a mind before there's any movement,

[05:49]

before you can get some perspective and see something as separate. So I experiment with the path of reunion, or the path that turns around and goes back to this original mind, or that turns around and goes forward into the end of my life, and where that mind also appears. It appears at my birth and at my death. It appears where I start and where I end.

[06:54]

And whenever I meet another person, that's where I start, and that's where I end. Everything I meet is where I start and where I end. Everything that's not me is where I start and where I end. So I experiment with the awareness of that place. And a paradox that comes to my mind is that the path to reunion, the path to the place before separation, before distinction arises,

[08:02]

involves the experience of separation. It will be a separation that will evoke initiation into the world of reunion. If I want to be initiated, if I want the door of the world beyond this one where I'm separated, in order to enter that, I have to experience a separation. And the separation can be... I can use any means.

[09:07]

Any means can be used to experience this separation. But again, ultimately, because any means can be used, all means can and must be used. In other words, I have to be able to be separated from everything as it happens, not theoretically. I'm just proposing a theory that I have to be able to be separated or give up everything, but it actually comes down to what's happening right now. So it's actually one thing at a time, or each thing at a time. I have to use what I'm relating to as my gate. You know, there's a radical expression in one of the Zen stories, at the introduction of one of the Zen stories,

[10:26]

where the teacher says, if you hold so much as the letter A in your mind, you will go to hell as fast as an arrow shot. So even to hold the instruction of letting go, if you walk around and hold the instruction in your mind, you know, let go of what's happening, holding that is still not letting go. You can't hold anything, and being willing not to hold anything, being willing to be separated from anything, opens the door to where you want to go.

[11:32]

So, again, maybe I should say, opens the door to where I want to go. I won't speak for you. And I don't want to try to talk you into entering that same door by telling you that all the Buddhas entered that door. Maybe I will say that, that if you want to enter the door that all the Buddhas entered, they entered the door which opens when you let go of whatever it is you've got right now before you. You don't have to worry about later what you have to give up. As a matter of fact, worrying about later what you have to give up is holding something in your mind.

[12:33]

You will be asked for further donations, but you don't have to think about it now. As a matter of fact, thinking about it now is contradictory to the process of letting go of this. So yesterday we studied in this room a dialogue all day where the teacher says to his monks, as he was about to die, as the teacher was about to die, his ultimate teaching to his monks was to say it's this won't do. To say it's not this won't do either.

[13:35]

So putting aside those two possibilities, what is it? Putting aside those two possibilities, how about you? About a week ago I fell in a trap that someone probably inadvertently set for me. They said something about, well, Zen doesn't have a god, right? Or Buddhism doesn't have a god. And actually it's not true that Buddhism doesn't have a god. In other words, it's not true to say this is not it. But it's also not true to say Buddhism does have a god. Anyway, I got into this trap of discussing with her whether Buddhism had or had not possessed or didn't possess God.

[14:57]

But it didn't work, and I realized that when someone says to you, does Buddhism have a god, you know, basically you should say to them, how about you? What do you think? A little while ago, over in the coffee-tea area, someone gave me the quote of the day. She was cleaning up the coffee-tea area and throwing away, I should say recycling, recycling a brand-named teabox. And these teaboxes have little quotes on them. So this quote is by William Blake. It is, and I'm going to change the gender to protect the innocent.

[16:03]

She who binds herself to a joy doth winged life destroy. But she who kisses the joy as it flies doth eternities, lives in eternities sunrise. The same would apply to pain. Some people bind themselves to pain. Same. If you bind yourself to pain, you destroy the winged life. But if you kiss the pain as it flies, you live in eternities sunrise. I like that at sunrise it also rhymes with flies. I think the sunrise part is important.

[17:15]

If, when things happen, you just, just, you know, barely touch them, just a little kiss. I won't get into what kind of kiss this should be. But anyway, in a friendly way, in a warm way, touch the joy. Touch the joy the way you would touch the pain. Touch the pain and the joy the same. As it flies, not as you push it away, or as you encourage it along, just as it flies by, give it a little peck. Give it a little, hi. This is called separation. And experiencing that separation as joy and pain fly,

[18:20]

fly by, in order to experience the separation, give it a little kiss. Don't close your, don't cover your eyes and your ears and so on as pain and joy fly by. Just sit there and witness the coming and going of the pains and joys and just experience them, just enough. And not any more than that. Then you will experience the separation and experiencing the separation this way will open the door, will let you witness the sunrise, the birth, the dawn of eternity. .

[19:21]

So as I say so many times, in India and China and Japan and Korea, Tibet, Central Asia, Vietnam, and now in America, overall pervades the character of this school, which is simply total devotion to being upright. Upright. Upright means you just sit there and when pain comes by, you don't lean backwards to get out of the way. And when pleasure comes by, you don't lean forward to get a little better grip on it.

[20:32]

Also you don't lean to the left to avoid the temptation of the pleasure or lean to the right to avoid, you know, the pain. You just remain quiet and present as things come and go. It's not easy. It's not easy when a pleasant, friendly face appears not to lean forward a little bit. Or when a frightening, unfriendly face appears, it's not easy not to try to lean to the left a little bit or the right or cover the eyes. I didn't say it was easy. I didn't say anything about it being easy. I just said overall pervades the character of the Zen school, which is simply to be upright. I can say under all circumstances, but I just mean one at a time. I just mean now, really, and again.

[21:42]

And this kind of uprightness means giving up or being separated from, leaning forward and backwards, being separate from all techniques of coping. It doesn't mean there aren't techniques of coping whizzing by all the time. It's just that you also just kiss them and let them go too. You don't attach or hold those techniques. You don't hold any techniques. You don't hold even the letter A in your mind. If you don't hold the letter A in your mind, even if the letter A means heaven or hell, you just remain still, and the hell and heaven will not reach this place. And in this place, things will happen. And how will they happen? They will happen in the, you know,

[22:53]

very complex, multidimensional, inconceivably complex way that the Buddha called dependent co-arising. Everything that happens happens because of everything else helping it. And everything that happens helps everything else happen. Nothing happens by itself, and nothing else besides this thing happens without this thing helping. This is a story, almost a story, about the way things happen that the Buddha witnessed and told over and over. How do you witness this eternal drama? Just be upright, and you'll see these things happen,

[24:00]

just like you always see them happen. But now you'll see that the way they happen is actually always enlightenment itself. And all these relationships that arise this way are joyful and harmonious. Originally, as they're produced, as they arise in their sunrise, in their dawn, they are originally and fundamentally harmonious. But if you hold the letter A in your mind, if you hold any Zen teaching or Buddhist teaching or non-Buddhist teaching or anti-Buddhist teaching, if you hold anything in your mind, if you hold nothing in your mind, then what appears will not necessarily look like harmonious and joyful appearance. If we want to enter the world,

[25:11]

which seems almost like another world, but really isn't, of where all our relationships are harmonious, we must separate from whatever we have before us. We must let go of it, not by the action of letting go, but simply by being upright. That lets go. Not by ignoring what's happening, not by discounting it, but just touch it, just kiss it, and notice that it goes by itself. This is all the separation you have to do. It's radical. It's momentary. .

[26:19]

. [...] I've heard some rumors, and I find my mind in an informal debate with these rumors. I don't really say that there's any people who are actually really saying these things I'm hearing, but from what I hear, I have a little different perspective. And I said to someone, someone asked me about fear,

[27:20]

and I said that actually I wasn't that, what do you call it, that I'm not an advocate of fear. I'm not saying I never get afraid, but basically I have a kind of, my, I was going to say my policy, but I certainly don't want to have a policy about fear. I don't want to hold a policy, policy A about fear. So now, how am I going to talk about fear without a policy about it? So I don't even want to have a policy like, well, fear is not good. That's kind of like holding a certain bias towards fear. If I don't think fear is good, maybe I could hold, temporarily just hold, or even consider that fear is good. That might be a good thing for me to do.

[28:20]

So I got myself into a fix now, I brought this up, how am I going to, what kind of a relationship can I have with fear? How can I like, you know, not like, how can I take care of myself so that I don't like indulge in fear and like hang out in fear and feel loyal to fear? Like, you know, how can you give thing its due? How can I give fear its due? And I don't think fear necessarily needs me to say it's bad. That may be more than it needs. Just give it its due and see how it happens. I guess that's what I could say. Stopping slightly short of making that into a policy. So, there it is. Now, what I've seen and heard

[29:26]

is that when I look at fear with this unpolicy mind, just look at it, just study it, not even knowing beforehand, try not to remind myself of what I already found out about it. I keep finding out that fear involves the future. It involves expectation. The root of the word fear means to extend forward. So, now when I say that, when I say fear involves leaning forward or expectation or the future, then again I find my mind wanting to make a policy called come back from the future. Come back to the present. Again, I want to be gentle about that, not make a big heavy policy like come to the present. You know, you've heard Zen is about being in the present, right? Well, we don't want to make a policy out of that. Maybe we should be willing to throw that out too.

[30:30]

Okay, so let's throw it out. Zen is not about being in the present, but it's not that either. It's some kind of like very flexible attitude towards being in the present, even considering the possibility of being in the present. Allowing that, allowing presence, not forcing it. And my experience is that in the present there is no fear. But again, I don't want to make a policy about that and say in the present no fear. I don't want to make a policy out of that. I guess I would just invite you to the present or encourage you to the present and anybody who finds fear in the present, I would be happy to hear about how that happened. But as I've also mentioned to you over and over, is that there can be anxiety in the present.

[31:32]

And anxiety, there is some overlap between anxiety and fear. And I would say that even in, you know, anxiety has some sense of anticipation. But again, the root of anxiety is not like the root of fear. It doesn't mean extending forward. It means to be choked or strangled. There can be a strangling or choking in the present due to the sense of where I start and where I end. Due to the sense, wherever I start, wherever I end, I can be intimidated at that interface. I can be tormented by that place where I end. I can be tormented by my end and by my beginning. And if I can't stand the torment, the anxiety of my end

[32:35]

or my beginning, if I can't stand it, what I may do is lean into the future and then I'll have fear, which will distract me from this basic anxiety, which arises from my end and from my origin. So that's why I say I invite myself back to the present. Come back. Just an invitation, not a policy. Come back. Come back to the present, Reb, and feel this anxiety, which is pretty much a frequent visitor. Now, in that anxiety, I've heard a rumor that some famous psychologist suggested that maximizing anxiety was good. But other researches have shown

[33:41]

that there's an optimal level of anxiety that's good. That, for example, learning occurs when anxiety is not too high or, of all things, too low. I remember, as a matter of fact, when I was a freshman in college, I took a psychology class and I remember something about that anxiety, that if you're a little bit hungry, like the studying that I did around 4.30 or 5 in the afternoon, when I wasn't like really, really, really hungry and starting to shake, but getting a little hungry, that my mind was up for study. Or another thing I heard is a little bit of tension, like holding one of those little hand-squeezing things, a little bit of muscular tension helps learning, seems to increase ability to learn. But too much tension, too much you and the other thing,

[34:48]

too much anxiety is not so good. And so, learning seems to occur when you feel safe, but to have no anxiety is probably not real safety, it's probably denial or a stupor. I guess a stupor is a kind of denial. If you really, really eat a lot of food and drink, your anxiety level might drop in that place where your blood's gone away from your head down to your stomach and your brain doesn't have enough energy anymore to experience separation. You can't even tell where you end anymore, you just sort of like flow into infinity, because the brain has been drained of the blood. Like a baby, you know, right after they feed and just go, pooh!

[35:50]

So that's nice, but not necessarily a learning situation. So how do you find the optimal relationship with your anxiety? Again, the same practice is suggested, namely be upright with the anxiety and you'll gradually settle with it and find some peace and safety, because you have faced the anxiety, you don't have to jump into the future and wonder what's going to happen next or how long it's going to last, it doesn't matter so much, you're just dealing with it moment by moment. And although you're dealing with real anxiety, you're also feeling, I can deal with it actually, you know, moment after moment, I can face my anxiety. It takes quite a bit of effort, but I actually feel relatively relaxed, relatively alert,

[36:55]

I feel soft and energetic with this phenomena called feeling somewhat choked, feeling slightly tormented by everything I see. Slightly or little, you know, a certain amount of anxiety in relationship to everything that's not me, because everything that's not me is a wonderful and frightening place, because that's where I end, that's where I start, and this is quite exciting to me, this excitement is called anxiety. So, the uprightness settles with this anxiety and you can experience this anxiety partly if you're well, you can enter the world, if you're in the world of fear, you can enter the other world of anxiety by giving up,

[37:55]

by giving up the future, by experience of separation from the future, you can enter the world of the present. By being willing to be separated from fear, you can have direct experience of anxiety. By having this direct experience of anxiety, you can find a place where the mind distinguishes between this and that, between delusion and enlightenment, between right and wrong, between self and other. At that place, there's this problem, there's this anxiety. Settling there, watching the joy and pain come and go across that threshold, a time may come, which we call the dawn of eternity, where the eternal story of how things happen will be laid before you,

[38:57]

will be revealed to you. And again, I propose to you, along with the ancestors' proposal, that when things come up in their original event space, they come up in total cooperation with each other. They don't come up in not fighting with each other. Everything's helping everything else. In the origins of the way things happen, there is peace, harmony, and bliss. If you want to witness this, the gate is called giving up everything other than just being how you are. This uprightness is not a technique. It is simply the door to peace and bliss. It is simply the manifestation of ultimate reality.

[40:02]

We say it's like the dragon when he gains the water playground. It's like the tiger when she enters the mountains. It's like the dragon when she enters the mountains. So this is what I wanted to say this morning. Thank you for listening. If it's relevant, then it's relevant. And if it's not, please forget it. What disturbs me is I feel like following the teachings makes me very passive.

[41:08]

Passive? Yes. Uh-huh. Could you tell me more about how you understood that to mean that you're passive? Could you hear her question, by the way? No. She said she felt like following this teaching, by this teaching, what I said today you mean? Yes. That it would make you passive. So I asked her to say a little bit more about how she thought it would lead to being passive. It seems like you wouldn't enjoy life as much. You wouldn't enjoy pleasure as much. Well, I guess the pain is the problem. Well, maybe that's it. Okay.

[42:21]

So, yeah, the problem is the pain. The pleasure is not really a problem. I'm not telling you to make pleasure a problem. Okay. I'm just suggesting, I guess, that like Blake says, if you grab your pleasure or grab your joy, if you hold it, you'll kill your life. That's all. I'm not telling you you shouldn't enjoy and appreciate and give pleasure a kiss. I'm just saying if you hold it, you'll kill the spirit of your life. That's all. So it's not exactly passive. It's more of a light, flexible, soft way of relating to everything. But what about if you have testosterone at a high concentration in your blood?

[43:22]

No. Then you've got like a physical need to like exert yourself in a certain way. I mean, your muscles want to like really, you know, flex. You know, and you want to like, maybe like throw a ball very straight someplace. If you've got that kind of high hormonal concentration in your blood, you've got other concentrations of other hormones in your blood, then you kind of don't want to throw the ball. You kind of like just want to relax and yield. And that's where you're at. So, when you have a very strong impulse or drive to, you know, be very direct and penetrating,

[44:26]

there's a way to like be present with that and not indulge in that or run away from that. Each person finding their true, their true posture, their correct posture with their given testosterone level. And women of course have plenty of testosterone in their blood too. Right? Did you know that? Yeah. It's just that on the average, men have more. And I guess women have estrogen in their blood too? But men don't have much or have none? None. Very little. They don't have any progesterone either? They do have some progesterone, but not much estrogen usually. If they take estrogen, then that has certain effect, which some people want to have, right? So they take it. They don't have to take it. They can just do other things. Yeah, they can do other things.

[45:28]

Anyway, so, this teaching is not about being active or passive. It's about balancing those two. If you've got a lot of activity, a lot of intense feeling to act, then that should be balanced with something else. It's the balanced state of mind we're talking about, not an active or passive state of mind. So if you're in a very active mode, then you balance that with being aware and receptive to the energy of action, or the impulse. You balance it with something which receives that input, that information. If you're in a very receptive mode, leaning over, way on that side, then you balance that with some sense of assertion, or like, you know, I'm here being kind of laid back. So, again, I often say

[46:41]

that the feeling of uprightness is like an erect swoon. Yeah. Or as my wife complimented me one time, she said, you're always like this, but you're always ready to go like this. What does that mean? What does it mean? I don't know. And today she's not talking. She's silent today, so we won't be able to ask her. But I guess what my interpretation was, it's all about interpretation. Somebody said, you know, Buddhist studies is not about, like, proposing some philosophy, like philosophizing, like this is true or that's true. It's more like, how do you interpret what's happening?

[47:42]

How do you interpret people saying stuff like this is true or that's not true? What's your interpretation? What does that mean? Whatever is appearing, what is that? It's more like this. So, my interpretation, this is not what that's about, but my interpretation is you saying that I make an effort, I stand up, but I'm always ready to take a nap. I'm always ready to, you know, go down. Even though I'm often, like, walking around dealing with gravity, with some energy, I'm also ready to just be experienced that I'm also the result of great, of many, many forces. So I, I just, so there's a me that's not there, that's just sort of the result of everything, that's just down close to the ground. And there's a me who stands up and says,

[48:44]

I'm here. To have those both. To balance those two. Uprightness doesn't mean rigidity, uprightness means honestly where you are and also flexibility or softness. Those two together. Like, this is what I believe, this is how I feel, this is, this is where I'm at, and maybe not. Maybe not. Or maybe not, but still, this is where I'm at. Got to admit it. My question is, how do I constantly maintain this? I have this realization right now, but then it goes away.

[49:45]

Um, how can you constantly maintain it? Yes. Well, you maintain it by letting go of it. And you say, well, but then will it come back? If you're thinking about that, that's not it. In some sense, I guess you have to, you have to like act as though this were your true nature. This is your true nature, so you don't have to maintain this. It's your true nature that you're changing, so don't try to hold on to how you, to your realization. If you let go of it, we say, if you let go of it, it fills your hand. If you hold on to it, you kill the winged life. You destroy the fleeting, you know, flying away, liberated nature of life.

[50:48]

Our nature, all beings, the Buddha saw all beings' nature is that they're liberated, they wake up from what they're into. They don't just have an experience, they wake up from that experience. But if you hold on to how to practice, how to be good, so we're afraid, we think, oh, this is good, so we tend to think, well, if I don't hold on to what is good, then I'll go into the situation, I won't be able to remember what's good, and I might not do what is good. This is a very common feeling that we have. So what I'm proposing to you is not that you hold on to what you think is good and bring it with you everywhere, but that you observe how things happen, and when you observe how things happen, you will want it to be like that. You will appreciate the way things happen,

[51:53]

and that will be your value. Your value will be cooperation and peace. But then when you see that, you say, oh, this is such a wonderful thing, I have to take this now and bring it with me. But that wasn't how you saw, actually saw cooperation. Cooperation was revealed to you. You didn't make it happen. So actually we have this, a class we're going to do next year here. It's called Zen in Action. And so I look forward to my contribution, and part of my contribution to that class, I think, would be to say to the people who come to the class and to myself, these are people who have convictions, like people have convictions about recycling, about not polluting, not poisoning, about carpooling, about not having weapons

[52:58]

and not using them on people, about, about, you know, about 187. And now, we live in the Bay Area, and the Bay Area is the only place in the state besides Yolo County that voted against it. So we live in a strange part of the state. And in some ways I would say, you know, this is just me saying this, OK? But I think the people in the Bay Area are very aware of their fear. And in other parts of the state people are also afraid, but maybe less afraid of their fear. And because they're less afraid of their fear, they're easily driven around by their fear. And so I think a lot of people are afraid, so they vote for that proposition because they're not only afraid, but they're not friends with their fear. I think the people around here are more friendly to their fear in general. It's OK to be afraid in the Bay Area.

[54:01]

Maybe that's why we can vote against something which is basically based on fear of the other. You know? Fear of the other. What's the other going to do? Is it going to get bigger and bigger? Are we going to support the other? So anyway, these are our values. These are our convictions. But if you hold to your convictions, you'll kill your life. So you have to let go of your convictions and then see. Will they then in the next moment stand right up again and present themselves to you? Do you trust that this isn't something you have to hold on to to remind yourself that it's good, but that reality will present again to you that you really think that you're going to die? It's better to, you know, to have peace than war. Or do you have to like...

[55:04]

When you first saw that that was good, it was an insight that you had. You saw that and you're afraid you won't see it again. So then you hold on to it. But if you hold on to it, although you remember the insight, you kill your life and you block further revelation as to the current meaning of your conviction. Yes. You said something about these guys who have conviction about recycling. How about these guys who have conviction in making a difference? Is this considered conviction? Conviction about making a difference? Right. You could have, it's my conviction. I want to make a difference. That's a conviction. So it is a conviction. It could be. OK. I mean, convictions do arise. You see something and it becomes a conviction because you say,

[56:06]

I affirm that. I think that's good. You do. Or I think that's bad. I think it's bad. I think it's... I don't like to see cruelty. You may feel that way. You may have an insight to see that cruelty is not something you like. You dislike it. And looking through those eyes, maybe everybody would dislike it. But if you hold to that insight, hold to that vision, then you kill something. Yes? I think you answered my question which was conviction and how you turn that into judgment of good and bad. You just said you want to kill. Well, convictions sometimes convictions are judgments. I mean, in other words, a judgment arises that you see this is good. You see harmony

[57:07]

and you say, I actually see now that harmony is good. I'd actually better these people to get along for them to fight. You see that and your body understands it. OK? And that can become a conviction. At that time, you feel like, yes, I'm for this. OK? And there's a term we have, courage of your convictions or courage of her convictions. She has a courage of her convictions. And usually what people mean is that you'll fight for your convictions or that, you know, or that you'll die for your convictions. Something like that. Or you'll get stressed for your convictions. OK? But I'm proposing another kind of fear of your, not fear, another kind of fear of your convictions means you're afraid. You're afraid you'll lose your convictions. You're afraid your convictions won't be realized. OK? So, in the face of fear, you have courage. The courage that you don't have to hold your convictions for them to be realized. You hold them up for now and then you let go of them and they fill your hand again

[58:08]

and you hold them up again. That's another kind of courage of convictions. The courage that you don't have to be self-righteous in order to protect your convictions. Even though your conviction might be a judgment. I mean, often they are judgments. Like, I think, it is my conviction that it's better to have trees on the planet than not. It's my conviction that it's better if people are happy than if they're miserable and cruel to each other. That's a value that I might have at this moment. But what people often do who have those very values I just mentioned is they carry them around with them in a pack on their back. And they come in a situation where they've already decided that it's good to be at peace. Well, why decide that?

[59:09]

If you really believe it, you don't have to bring it with you everywhere. Wouldn't you be able to figure that out on the spot? And sometimes people say, well, no, I forget. I forget that it's better to be at peace. So I want to bring it with me so I won't forget. But if you use your convictions as a crutch like that, then you're not really discovering again the meaning of peace in the situation and how you like it now. And so your past insight, which was, you know, I agree with it, then becomes something which kills your current revelation as to the value of peace. And then you become an oppressive person to yourself and others, and in fact you foster war. Wars are usually between people who are both holding values. Wars do not occur between people who have let go of their values and who are now in the process of discovering them together. Even though they might discover different values, the process, if they share the one value

[60:11]

of let's discover our values, they won't fight with each other. Unless they simultaneously realize that they want to have a fight in harmony and peace. They want to joyfully, testosterone-ly struggle with each other. This can happen. You can have two animals who just want to exert their muscles and push each other back and forth. This can happen in peace and bliss. You know, I was just reading about, you know, Saint Augustine's understanding of the Garden of Eden was first people had sex and and sex caused fall. Sex caused original sin. But of all people, John Milton had a different understanding. His understanding was originally Adam and Eve had a sexual relationship and had children and they were getting along quite well. Then happened the original sin.

[61:13]

Then happened fall. In other words, then they started dealing with each other as subject, as separate. And then, based on the fall, sex became concupiscent, became, became lust. Exploitive. Huh? Exploitive, yeah. Sex became something that wasn't just itself, but was used to get pleasure or to get pain or to get power or to give up power or to, or to, you know, get love or to give love or, it wasn't just itself anymore because of this way of looking at it. That's caused by the original sin, that's by the fall. I, I think it is the desire for knowledge. I think that's what it is. You want to know, you want to now know what you love. I think that's the, that's the evolution

[62:14]

of the fall, is that we, is the human mind developed to a point where it had the potential to know things and, and in order to know, we sold out the purity of relationships where you don't know things as objects. So I think that's the, that's the, I think that's a good story about the evolution of how something that's can be done, you know, in other words, it's possible to, to have a, to have a wrestling match with a member, you know, who's either sexual or non-sexual wrestling match with somebody and use your muscles and use your body and interact without, you know, having it be something that you're doing for some other reason, to gain something or to lose something or to win something or to make some point. You're just doing it for itself. In other words, it's possible to be upright in, in rather dynamic dances. So that's why,

[63:15]

you know, although I'm not a, I don't know how to do the tango, I think the tango is a very good dance. Because I think it has a possibility of including a certain kind of energy at the same time being quite upright and present and not doing the tango for some reason. One question. Since we are talking so much about testosterone today, why is... We're talking so much about what? Testosterone or progesterone. Why is that most, most philosophies or religions or thoughts have celibacy considered, you know, important? Whether they are, you know, in most religions. What's the reasoning for that? So, why is celibacy considered to be important or could I say useful? Useful, yeah. In a lot of spiritual disciplines. Yeah. Well,

[64:15]

I think for most people the way that they get involved in sexual relationships is based on this, you know, subject-object separation, right? So then if you have relationships which are based on you being a special thing aside from the other person, or like there's me and then there's somebody else, right? And we have a relationship. So far, this is not so bad and not so good either. It's just sort of that's the way it seems to be. There seems to be this thing of me and somebody else. And then we kind of like maybe have a relationship or some connection and some separation. And then and then something, then there's something special about me starts to

[65:18]

come up in a situation. Something special about me like they say, you know, you're one of the cutest people in the room. Something something special about me like I'm among all the other people and even relative to her or him, I'm kind of like kind of special. And then what happens is some some juice starts flowing then. A juice a juicing kind of thing happens. In this situation in this particular example it's like juice starts flowing into me. Warm juice because you're special. You're cute. You're nice. You're wonderful. You're kind. Or even you're the kindest around or something. Okay? And it can go the other way too

[66:20]

that you say you are one of the ugliest people in the room. You are one of the cruelest most selfish. But anyway, even though they're calling you selfish they're still even though they're calling you selfish they're making you feel more selfish. More like a special person. A standout. So we get a situation like that developing and we feel that we feel that energy flowing. Okay? So what's your question in a situation like that? My question in a situation like that a lot of thoughts come to my mind and again if I realize who am I and I Excuse me. What was your original question? My original question was about the importance of celibacy and Okay. Back to celibacy. We're in a situation

[67:24]

we're in a situation where these juices are flowing. Now if you then physically if you then physically enact this juice is coming towards you then you start physically getting into getting this juice flowing then there is that accentuates the flow of the juice and you can get a lot of energy you can you know you can get inflamed with energy or you can get depleted in energy your energy can go down or up in these kind of interactions. If your energy gets too high then you have you have to sort of have to bring it down and you don't have to bring it down but you're kind of like stressed by having too much energy you're inflated or whatever. If your energy is depressed you need to sort of like go running around to bring your energy back up to normal. If you're jumping back and forth between inflation and deflation

[68:24]

then you kind of get kind of your nerves get kind of racked by the by the constant flux and as a result people tend to get enervated and irritable and distracted by all this energy variation. So some people feel like it's better for your uprightness for your presence if you don't get into these heavy duty energy exchanges these juice interchanges. Okay? So that's that's what I think they feel is. But Milton on the other hand thinks he thought that celibacy was simply sick simply insane because you see you're messing around on the other side of the way of thinking which causes the problem and you're just basically restraining natural expression but basically you're doing the same thing all the time because you think that way

[69:25]

and you just stop that one expression of it or that one elaboration and acting out about it you stop that but you don't just stop it like you know with some people who it's really inappropriate with you stop it with everybody right? It isn't just like celibacy isn't that you don't have sexual relationships with everybody it's that you don't have I mean it isn't that you have sexual relationships with a few people and not other people it isn't that you figure out when it's appropriate you just across the board don't do it right? So then basically you have that basic pattern which causes the outflows which hasn't been touched as a matter of fact you then thwart a natural behavior as a way to try to like stop the effects of the way you think which seems fine to stop those effects but how are you going to deal with the basic problem? So if celibacy is helpful to you to like turn around look at the basic problem then I would say it's a reasonable strategy

[70:26]

just like I was saying before there shouldn't be too much or too little anxiety but some people by restraining their sexual activity get so stressed and so anxious that they can't be present anyway because they've artificially done this thing to themselves so they get really weird you know and they can't concentrate on what they're doing anyway because they're because of this big heavy thing they're putting on their sexual dimension other people celibacy is just right but actually they would be celibate without the policy anyway I mean in fact they just would be celibate in other words they just wouldn't be in sexual relationships because they wouldn't see any appropriate ones so they might go for years it just wouldn't happen but they wouldn't need that policy other people I'm afraid need sexual activity in order to meditate you know and for them being celibate

[71:28]

well I guess it's the same thing I just said in other words it is sometimes the case that the right thing to do is to be be sexually involved if it weren't for that there would be no Buddhas Buddhas come from sexual activity so it is appropriate it is appropriate that that would happen sometimes the question is when when is it appropriate when is it appropriate and you find the appropriate and part of the way you find the appropriateness you know is to have your sexual energy balance so that you can see what's going on so celibacy sometimes is an appropriate strategy sometimes it's not sometimes you're celibate without even being a strategy it's just what's happening and it's appropriate sometimes you don't think of it as a strategy and it's not appropriate

[72:29]

so the question is what is conducive to you being present being relaxed flexible gentle alert and present what is what way of taking care of your body and mind is conducive to that if celibacy would help let's have a little celibacy and people can be celibate for a week a year ten months eight years a whole lifetime but to just sort of like say I'm going to be celibate for my whole life you can say that but I I wonder you know how what does that mean it's a symbol of something right it's a symbol of I'm really serious to say I'm going to be celibate for my whole life means I'm really serious but as a result of being really serious and saying I'm going to be celibate for your whole life that might support you to really be serious about your meditation and as a result of being really serious

[73:30]

about your meditation you might wake up from all your delusions and then decide to have lots of kids you might see that you might see you might have you might have the conviction I want to have lots of kids so I can take care of them and express my love and give them all the nurturing and affection and support and intelligence I can give because I want to make that contribution to the world you might you might see that and then again I would say then forget it in the next moment you might say hey I don't want to have any kids you don't know but I'm going to certainly give up the celibacy you feel in that moment and then a couple of weeks later you might say I think I'm going to practice celibacy again now this may not happen but it might and a lot of people I know who are celibate say that it's just a strategy it's just an experiment so I would suggest that if you're not celibate

[74:31]

you consider that an experiment don't be self-righteous about it and if you are celibate consider that an experiment moment by moment see if it's appropriate well let me say that it's because there's so much impermanence that commitments are useful if everything was set I mean if you just like locked into this little you just get over on this little track and then sort of like lock into it and this other person locked into this other track and then you yoke the two people then you wouldn't need any commitment they just ride through life together but if you're not on a track if you don't have a track and you can both you can walk around and think things and feel things then how are you going to stay together

[75:32]

and be devoted to each other if you don't say I'm devoted to you so let's see I don't know how I can say this but if you have kids even just one kid who's really alive and if you have like a responsible job like I don't know what you know like those things are like tracks you know the kids just keep being there day after day there they are who's going to take care of them so in some sense you don't have to make that much of a commitment because the kids are right there to say hey take care of me and even if the wife doesn't want the husband around she may say well would you please help me you know even if the mother doesn't really feel it's that great a commitment she kind of wants in fact the commitment is is obvious you have to take care of this being and if you have a responsible job

[76:33]

all those things are kind of like forcing you to you know even though it's impermanent the job keeps happening again day after day you know people keep saying you have a responsibility you know you have a responsibility in this society you have to be a good citizen you're an example we need you to take care of this so these things support you in a situation like that even though there's impermanence still there's a lot of support for you to take care of it but if you take away all that stuff then all the more you need to make a commitment and make a commitment means I'm committed to you into the unknown I don't know what our relationship will be I don't know you know as you get older and the kids are gone you know what kind of what marriage is there then when you don't have to you don't have to stay together for the kids so all the more when you go into the unknown

[77:35]

you realize that the commitment has to get deeper so I'm I've been married for 20 years I don't wear a wedding ring but on the 21st anniversary I'm going to put a wedding ring on because now after all these years I feel very much I'm going out into unknown territory I don't know where my life is going or what it's going to be so I have to not have to but I want to make a clearer commitment to take care of something in a situation where I don't know what it will be if I know what it's going to be I don't have to so the same with the precepts the Buddhist precepts you don't know what they are so you make a commitment you don't know how they'll manifest you don't your understanding of them today might be different from tomorrow but you always commit yourself to them commit yourself to explore what they mean what do they mean what

[78:35]

what is the correct interpretation of do not kill what is the correct interpretation of do not steal do not lie what is the correct interpretation of you know practice right conduct practice all good benefit all being what is the correct interpretation so if I live in a very limited world where everything is structured it may be easier for me to tell what's right but as things become more and more unknown and changeable then all the more I need to make a commitment commitment to not a fixed road but a commitment to try to find out what is the path what is the path of peace and happiness for all beings rather than this is the path and I got it and I'm going to bring it into the next moment yes it seems to be

[79:38]

I seem to not be able to let go of that first statement that you made about just taking everything as it is and taking everything as new and letting go sort of what you were talking about today and how you related that to the last question that was the gentleman asked and I've heard a lot of teachers say that you shouldn't plan for the future or you don't have to just live every moment and one moment to the next excuse me may I say something yes if you say don't plan for the future you have just planned for the future you can plan for the future I don't I'm not saying don't plan for the future I guess even when you when you said about that on your 21st anniversary you're going to wear you're going to put on your wedding ring yes and I don't think

[80:41]

that I could even begin to live a life unless I did build on one aspect of myself to another aspect and have that as a foundation for the next thing that I do in life and whether I consciously carry it around with me or I somehow there because there's a continuity to my life if I'm a peaceful person I might not be carrying that around in my mind but it's in my body someplace that I'm not going to be killing people or not going to be causing harm to people and at some point in my life maybe even 10 years from now I can't imagine that a new thought might come up that where I would go the other way and say hmm it seems like do you understand what I'm saying it seems like it's pretty capricious of individuals if they're if they if they if they're not holding it somewhere within them whatever comes up they're going to be acting on that and it could be

[81:41]

as if you were where you didn't have any direction in life is it kind of what I'm saying I just can't quite yeah I think I think I think I understand what you're saying I think I understand your problem I mean your question there's a lot of cobwebs on the ceiling back there so you know we might clean those cobwebs cleaning those cobwebs is based on those cobwebs being there I didn't plan on seeing those cobwebs when I got here but now I do I would recommend and encourage people to clean them I like to have the ceiling look like this more than that it's a value I have however if I suggested and they don't do it I'll try not to look down on them for not first of all for not doing what I asked and second of all for not sharing my value or not sharing it to such an extent that they would clean that I didn't plan to have this reaction I just looked up there and saw those things if in fact

[82:43]

you are a person who moment by moment appears and disappears and every time you appear you don't want to hurt people okay if that's in fact what's happening then what's the problem the problem? yeah, what problem do you have? I don't think it's the problem as much as that every time I reappear there has to be some continuity and I have to be holding that you're saying you do have to have the continuity are you saying that? no, I'm saying in order for the continuity to exist yes I have to have that peaceful presence within me and it has to be are you saying that you think that's true? yes, yes you think in order for there to be continuity you have to have this thing happen again and again no, I'm saying I have to carry it around with me in some fashion otherwise how will I right, okay now

[83:44]

that's related to what you brought up you're talking about peaceful he was talking about how can you have the practice of not holding it how can you bring that with you how can you have a continuous practice of not holding on to something okay okay so what I'm saying to you is something which I want to say this really gently okay I'm saying to you that if you hold your value of being peaceful with you you will go to hell I'm saying that to you for you to consider okay if you actually are a peaceful person if you don't hold it if you let go of it in the next moment you will be peaceful again you will be a peaceful person again if you do not trust that you're a peaceful person and therefore because you don't trust that you hold on to your peaceful feelings you become a murderer because you don't

[84:44]

and you verify that you're a murderer because you don't believe that you're a peaceful person that's why you hold on to your peaceful value if you really believe that you won't hurt anybody that you would rather die than hurt a person if you really believe that then you should be able to let go of it if you really believe you're a man you can forget about it to hold on to that you're a man will hurt your manhood men who are sure that they're men do not have to remember that women who are sure they're women do not go around reminding themselves I'm a woman I'm a woman I'm a woman they discover it and in fact they don't change from being a woman to a man you know they just it just happens it just comes up and it's built on the last moment the last moment that you're a woman will cause you to be a woman in the next moment the last moment you're a peaceful person will cause you to be a peaceful person in the next moment if you hold on to it it isn't that you're not a peaceful person it's that your disbelief

[85:46]

and distrust of your peacefulness is what causes you to hold on to it and that distrust will block your peacefulness So, I'm suggesting to you that your peacefulness will be accelerated, augmented, promoted and nurtured by your willingness to give up the thing you care for most. You should give up the thing you treasure most if you want it to live. The way to protect the most valuable thing in your life is to let go of it, which includes love, your children, you know, peace, let go of it. You don't have to let go of it if you don't want it. You don't have to let go of it if you don't value it. If you value it, I have a different practice. If you don't value it, I have a different value for you, that is, let go of your disvaluing of it. Not valuing it, if you hold to that, will also kill your life. So, I'm suggesting to you, just as I did to him, if you want, and the very practice of

[86:50]

letting go, how are you going to have continuity with that? Well, let go of the practice of letting go. Whatever you value, if you really value it, trust that it's true for you and then you don't have to carry it with you. But in fact, when you first find something very precious, what do you do? You hold it. And what do you do? You kill it. It's a natural thing. Many Zen students, when they first start feeling how wonderful it is to love and be peaceful, they think, wow, and they hold it. They write it down, they hold it in their mind, and they go to hell. Actually, that was very good. Thank you. Thank you.

[87:36]

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