Tonight I'd like to begin by reading part of the Kacchayana Gota Sutta, which is the scripture discourse to Mr. Kacchayana. And I would say that this person named Kacchayana came up to the Buddha and said, Sir, People speak of right view, right view. To what extent is there right view? The Buddha said, this world, kathayana, is generally inclined towards two views, existence and non-existence. This world, kathayana, is generally not upright towards two views, existence and non-existence.

[01:13]

To her or him who perceives with right wisdom the arising of the world as it has come to be, The notion of existence in the world does not occur. Kajjana, to him or her who perceives with right wisdom the ceasing of the world as it has come to be, the notion of existence in the world does not occur. The world, for the most part, kajayana, is bound by approach, grasping, and inclination. And he or she who does not follow that approach and grasping and determination of mind, that inclination and disposition, who does not cling to or adhere to the view, quote, this is myself, unquote,

[02:25]

and who thinks, quote, suffering that is subject to suffering arises, suffering that is subject to ceasing ceases, such a person does not doubt, is not perplexed, herein his or her knowledge is not other dependent. Thus, Kachayana, there is right view. Everything exists. This kachayana is one extreme. Everything does not exist. This kachayana is a second extreme. Kachayana, without approaching either extreme, the Tathagata teaches you a doctrine of the middle. So the middle way is, this teaching of the middle way, different from the last teaching of the middle way, has put more emphasis on wisdom.

[03:47]

And basically saying that not grasping extremes, extreme views, that's the middle way. And there's sometimes spoken about two kinds of middle ways. One is the actual... the actuality of not grasping these extremes, of relinquishing all views. And the other is teachings about the middle way or teachings about... not grasping either of these views. So in this class there's a middle way which is a kind of like me talking, or the Buddha talking, conventional language, conventional designations, which are teaching the middle way.

[05:01]

And then there's the middle way which is the actuality of not grasping these extremes. which is also sometimes called selflessness and is also sometimes called emptiness. In order to do this study, of the middle way in order to realize this relinquishing of views, we need to have a deep love for all beings and a deep intention to care for and protect all beings.

[06:07]

In order to do the work of facing uprightly what's happening, what's arising and what's ceasing without grasping extremes, we need to be rooted in a very deep and wide love. Otherwise, it will be hard for us to relinquish these extreme views. and all other views in between, by the way. If you can relinquish the extremes, you can relinquish the in-between, and if you relinquish everything up to the extremes but hold the extremes, it's still not enough. So actually, concentrating on the extremes is kind of a brief way to become selfless. Concentrating on relinquishing these views But it's hard to face what's happening without grasping these extremes unless you have a deep, deep and wide, wide motivation.

[07:23]

Similarly, until you relinquish all views, your affection and love and compassion for beings is well, kind of has a wound in it or a leak in it. And that leak is you're holding on to some of these extremes. So one of the famous zen zen cases in the book of the blue cliff record talks about how zen masters all they care about their only concern is to knock out the pegs melt the glue unlock the locks drop off the saddlebags just basically to release beings that's all they care about and they vow

[08:34]

to join hands with all living beings and enter into the mud and water with them and walk through birth and death with them in order to guide and protect them, to protect them from suffering and to guide them to freedom. And then it says, how can they do that? How could you join hands with everybody and go with them wherever they have to go? Sometimes, you know, you might see them going some dangerous place, and you might try to stop them. But sometimes you can't stop them. But you can go with them. Can I sit outside while you rob that bank? If I can't stop you? Can I love you while you go on this path to prison?

[09:48]

How could you stay with people when they're doing things that are harmful to themselves or others and keep loving them? How could you walk into death with somebody if you thought it was helpful? And it is helpful to walk with people. They need company when they're hurting themselves. They need love and attention so that they can learn how to stop being harmful to themselves and others. How could you do that? Well, the answer is, the reason why some people can do that is because they have ended all the outflows, all the leakages that occur from grasping at the extremes of existence and non-existence. Although this presentation is very

[10:57]

old one in the Buddha's teaching, the Buddha apparently gave it. It's not too popular, this particular study. I think most people have trouble seeing how they're grasping these extremes of existence and non-existence. And the previous scripture, talking about indulgence, or devotion to addiction to sense pleasures and a devotion to self-mortification, people seem to have easier time observing how they're into that as a distraction from what's going on in their life. But to see how you're grasping existence and non-existence may not be so easy for you to observe. But, in fact, most people are indulging in these extremes, so much so that they don't even notice it.

[12:17]

And you can't relinquish attaching to these extremes. You usually cannot relinquish them unless you notice that you're holding them. Yes. Say it again. It is kind of, yeah. When one person is dominated in the other, it's kind of like one person exists and the other one doesn't. It's like you're sitting there saying, You exist, and I don't. If you're the slave, you say, Master, you exist, and the master says, I exist, and you don't. However, that doesn't hold up for very long because it doesn't count to dominate somebody who doesn't exist.

[13:26]

So that's why masters need to get new people who to come and say they don't exist in order to keep their dominance going. But both parties in that kind of relationship can be grasping extremes. One, I exist and you don't. The other, You know, you exist and I don't. And some people feel, you know, some kind of pretty intelligent, very intelligent people feel that people Really, you can't expect them not to live that way, that they really can't avoid taking one side or the other in this.

[14:37]

They either have to acknowledge the other and forget about themselves, or assert themselves and forget about the other. I exist and you don't, or you exist and I don't. But to walk the middle, some people like, you know, what's his name, Marx, and I think Freud, too, say, no, people can't really walk the middle. They have to, like, split. So we do know that people can split, can break up the relationship into existence and non-existence. People can do that. But again, most people don't notice that they're doing it. And then if you notice you're doing this and you notice the consequences of it, namely, that it makes it so you, well, you can't work in certain ways that you would like to work because of this kind of outflow situation. One example of this that somebody told me I said a long time ago,

[15:46]

which I thought was good, is he said, I said that when you sit in a chair and you assume the chair will hold you up, that's the basis of burnout. That's how you have burnout. So if you're working to help people, and you're into existence and non-existence, every interaction will drain you some. It may seem all right. One interaction like that might seem okay, might even seem fun and certainly seem familiar. But if you do it over and over, you notice that you can't continue because your energies, you're exhausted. So if you sit in chairs and you assume the chair is going to hold you, that's kind of like grasping the existence of the chair as a support.

[16:57]

Not to mention not sitting on chairs that you think are non-existent. So could it be possible that going around and sitting on chairs that you, well, you shouldn't sit on chairs that you think are non-existent, right? But how about sitting on chairs which you don't think are existent or non-existent? How about sitting on those chairs? Wouldn't that be exciting? Have you ever done that? It's unfamiliar, right? It's called the middle way. Of course, you would normally... It's quite familiar to shake hands with somebody you think exists.

[18:04]

And to grasp the view that they exist, that's quite familiar. These are the kind of people that you might want to shake hands with or avoid shaking hands with. But you don't usually shake hands with people that you think are non-existent or people that you think, yeah, or you don't avoid people that you think are non-existent. But how about relating to people that you neither think are existent or non-existent? In other words, people that you don't grasp those extremes with. How about that? This is unfamiliar. This is called the middle way. I mean, maybe it's the middle way. To relinquish your views of existence and non-existence of the people you meet, your own body and mind. How can we not grasp existence, the view of existence and non-existence?

[19:27]

Well, one way is to just look at what's given to you. What's given to you? What's given to you? What's given to you? Somebody's sitting here saying, what's given to you? Is that given to you? Is somebody making some sound? You hear some sound? You see something? Is that given to you? Is that given to you? Something given to you? Are you adding anything to what's given to you? Adding any existence or non-existence to what's given to you? that's how you can find the uh... view of existence that you might be adding to what's happening so here we are every moment we don't you know you don't make me talk to you i don't make you listen to me i don't make this body you don't make this body and yet

[20:44]

Here's this body for me to experience and you to experience. Here it comes, there it goes. Now here's another one, there it goes. And here's another one, there it goes. And here's another one, there it goes. Is that happening? Is there a rising and ceasing of this body? Is there a rising and ceasing of this movement, this activity? Is there a rising and ceasing of thoughts? Is there a rising and ceasing of feelings? That's how it is over here. Is that how it is over there? Are things happening? Are things happening and then not happening anymore? Is that going on? Do you want anything more than that? One person is saying no. Everybody else is not answering. Yes? Yes, yes.

[21:54]

And you also, you said, you know, I heard this expression, when you add back in something, right? Did I hear that? Huh? Huh? I thought I heard, when you add back in. But how about adding back in this selfishness? Because what's this adding back in? How come there's adding back in? Isn't there something like, okay, this is happening, this is happening, this is happening, this is arising, this is ceasing. Well, what about me? What am I going to get out of this? So then we want to add something. And what do we add? Well, what do we add? to the arising and ceasing of our experience. But what is added? Huh? Our grasping. Our grasping. Well, you know, that could be it. But what if we're talking about just, you know, the sound of this person's voice?

[22:56]

What are you adding there? That there's a me here to hear it. And then if there's this thing, this me here to hear it is added, is there just the arising of that? Hmm? Huh? What? Well, yeah, we can get into that, but let's stay with this for a second here. Is it me here to hear it? Is that it? Just is it me here to hear it? Is that it? She says yes, because she doesn't want more than that. How about you? Is that enough? A me here to hear it? Nothing's added to that? Huh? Are you going to add that too? You can do it if you want to. But if there is all of us here to hear it, if that's what you add, if that seems to be added, you know, not just that there's hearing and then in the next moment there's me here to hear it, but there's a sense of adding me to the hearing.

[24:13]

But is there any kind of existence added to the me that's here? Hmm? Hmm? Well, that's the me, that's the self. Is there existence put on that self? Or is it just like something that's arising, a self that's arising? Or do you add something, existence to that? Yeah, we tend to. Can you see that you do that? Can you see that you add existence, the view of existence, to just something that's arising? Well, like, you know, I said, you know, I said, you heard these words, this person arises and this person ceases. This body arises, this body ceases. Didn't some of you think, what does he mean this body ceases? Didn't some of you think this body was lasting? Didn't you? Didn't you think, well, what's he doing? Yeah, sure, it's arising and ceasing, but really it's staying.

[25:16]

Didn't you think it was staying? Even though, of course, you know it's true that it's arising and ceasing. You know it's changing, right? Everybody knows that. But still, really, it's going on. Well, I'm saying, no, no, it's not going on. It's arising and ceasing. This thing about it going on, that's the thing that we're putting on, that it exists. And if it exists, it goes on. So putting existence on this body is, yeah, it's changing, but basically it's going on. And it might die. But it'll probably go on then, too, because it exists. And if it exists, it's going to go on. Or if it doesn't go on, then it's going to be annihilated, which is that it non-exists. You're not just going to let this body, like, appear and disappear. You're not going to let your feelings just appear. They're going to go on. There's going to be, like, something's going on. Don't we do that?

[26:18]

Isn't that familiar? And that's called grasping extremes. So you're watching this body, watching the bodily experiences, [...] bodily experiences arising and ceasing, mental experiences arising and ceasing, and we think they exist. We put existence on them, so we think they're arising and ceasing, but we also think they're lasting. getting annihilated. Isn't that much more convenient to see things that way? Isn't it much easier than this middle way thing where things are arising and ceasing and you're not putting like existence on them? The funny thing is it seems easier to add something to everything and grasp these extremes than just perceive what's happening.

[27:23]

But the reason why it seems easier is because we are built to ignore what's happening. So it's very easy for us to not pay attention to what's happening, and rather than pay attention to what's happening, we see something, and rather than looking at what and how it's happening, we put this existence on it, and then we can't see what's happening. But that's fine because we're not supposed to be seeing what's happening. Because if we saw what's happening, we wouldn't be able to do certain things which, you know, are selfish. So in order to be really, really selfish, it's good not to see what's happening. And one of the main ways we see, we cover up what's happening is putting existence on things and trying to promote that existence. to make it happen, to make it be so that I'm lasting.

[28:28]

Yes? It seems like you can't live if you don't do it. It seems like you can't live if you don't do it? What? It seems like you can't live if you don't do what? If you don't ignore what's happening? Apparently, that's the case because everybody, well, all humans that are living, almost all humans that are doing seem to be doing that. So from the normal human point of view, it seems like impossible to go on without doing that. That's right. Now, some people have brain damage or some kind of developmental problem, and they can't do it, but they go right ahead and live, and they don't think, oh, you know, If, you know, I can't live. I can't live because I'm the way I am. They probably think I wouldn't be able to live if I lived like those other people who are like being selfish. How would I be able to live? But maybe they don't think that because they have this problem they probably can't think such a sophisticated thought. But we who are able to

[29:44]

you know, little philosophers walking around with these philosophical views of existence and non-existence, which we grasp and use at will, we can easily imagine that it's almost impossible to live without this. But also we're built to think it's impossible to live without this. So we're not only supposed to look at this stuff, but if you imagine... Not only are we not supposed to look and pay attention to what's happening... and use grasping these views as ways of distracting ourself from it. And now it is easy for us to do that. But if we imagine not grasping those extremes and just looking at what's happening, we think that that would be almost impossible to live that way. So not only is it easy for us to not look at what's happening, but if we contemplate looking at what's happening without messing with it, we're also built, I think, to think this would not be a good idea because we wouldn't be able to carry on. Actually, we wouldn't be able to carry on, but our normal way of living

[30:49]

seems to be connected very strongly to this. So that way of being, of not looking at what's happening, not just looking at what's happening, not just looking at what's happening, not just seeing how things happen, that way of living, which seems like the only way or which seems necessary in order to live, let's just let it be that way then. Let's let it go on. Let's not fight it. Because fighting it would be pretty much the same thing. Because fighting it would be to say that it's going on, rather than fighting it would be like, rather than look at how we do this, rather than watch how we don't pay attention to what's going on, it would be to try to be different from that. Not try to be somebody other than the person who doesn't pay attention to what's going on. Try to be somebody who does pay attention to what's going on. and get rid of this person who doesn't pay attention, this normal person who doesn't pay attention.

[31:51]

But there's a slightly different way of doing it, which is don't try to get rid of this person who has a strong habit and thinks she can't live without ignoring what's going on. Just watch her. Just see her. See how she's up to grasping extremes. Then you don't have to try to get her to stop. You can just watch her continue her habit. And that watching her continue, as she actually does it, is again the middle way. Or maybe not again the middle way, but for the first time the middle way. Without trying to get rid of this person who doesn't want to look at how things are, but rather wants to grasp how they exist and don't exist. which is not how they are. Things aren't like existing and non-existing. They're dependently co-arising.

[32:54]

They're arising and ceasing. And the way they arise and cease, you know, as it says in here, if you see how they arise, If you watch how they arise, actually how they arise, you will not grasp the view of non-existence. And if you see how they cease, you won't grasp the view of existence. So if you watch things arise and cease, you'll stop grasping these extremes. But we poor little ducks, it's not easy for us to just watch how things are happening. not easy for us it's easy for us not to it's easy for us to grasp these extremes see so don't look at how things happen and you'll grasp the extremes you're already set to do it it'll be easy to continue just don't look at how things happen don't look at how they arise and cease and that'll go on however if you do watch how things arise and cease these ex these views will not arise and if you won't grasp them

[34:03]

Now, the things are arising and ceasing, so you don't have to do anything about that. You've got that working for you. It's called things arising and ceasing. It's called experience. You've got experience. Now, if you can just watch it, which is not easy because you're, again, strongly conditioned not to watch it and just to sort of grasping the streams all day long, if you can start watching it, you will gradually learn experience. that these extremes do not arise, these views do not arise, and therefore you won't grasp them and you will be on the middle way. You will relinquish these views and you will realize the way things really are. And one of the things that you may see arise, one of the things that may arise is the thought, I might not be able to go on if I start looking at what's happening. or if I start looking at what's happening and can't any longer carry on my unusual life of not looking at what's happening, I probably won't be able to live.

[35:11]

That's one of the things that may arise. You may have to watch that arise. There it comes. But if you watch how that thought of, if I don't grasp these extremes and if I watch what's happening, like I'm doing right now, I won't live. If you watch that, You watch that thought arise. Just how it arises, you won't grasp the extreme of that exists or doesn't exist. And you'll learn that you can live without it, but we, again, are strongly conditioned to think we'll be done for if we make this transition. We are programmed to not study Dharma. We're programmed to not study the truth. And therefore, it's easy not to. So we know it's easy, but what's hard is to do this thing called watching what's happening, and there's nothing in it for you. So what you're doing is you're practicing, you're doing a selfless practice, which will set you free of self-clinging, which will be happiness for you.

[36:28]

for your life for life the other way i didn't mention is uh the other way you're always perplexed and in doubt and anxious about everything that happens so stuff is happening stuff is arising and ceasing but because you don't watch how it happens you're anxious you're frightened you're confused you doubt if you watch things arise and cease You don't get anything out of it, but freedom from anxiety. Yes? So it would not be a right view to try to change the way things are arising? To change the way they're arising? It's not right view to try to change what's arising. Correct. Right view is to watch, is to perceive the arising of things in this right way.

[37:35]

And this right way is to not be inclined towards these extremes as you watch what's happening. So even if it's a disease process that you see arising, right wisdom is to see it arising without attributing existence or non-existence to it. Now, If a disease process is arising or, you know, you know, like a disease process, like, you know, some really poisonous event is arising in your life, right? Some really dangerous thing is arising, okay? Some really toxic experience is arising, okay? If you can perceive it arising with right wisdom, you would not try to change it you would see how it happens you would to try to change it would be another thing which would be like not recognizing how it's happening don't you're not putting your energy into trying to change what's happening you're putting your energy into seeing how things happen now if you see how something happens there's right wisdom here now now you have this meditator

[38:58]

who's seeing things arise and seeing how they happen, and now this person will respond. If a toxic event is happening, then you can't stop it from happening because it's happening. If it's not happening, you can't get it to happen because it's not happening. If it's happening, you've got to deal with it. Now, how are you going to deal with it? Are you going to deal with it with the right wisdom or with Delusion. The toxic event has arisen. That's what we're talking about. We have the toxic event. There it is. Boom. Now we see it arise. This person sees it arise, and this person sees it arise. This person sees it arising and says, it exists. And then if I think it exists, then I probably should punch it or run away or who knows what. But anyway, I grasp the extreme of existence in relationship to this thing.

[40:03]

And what often happens when you see a toxic thing, especially a large-scale, intense toxic thing, and you grasp existence, you're often paralyzed in the face of it. Because when you grasp it, you become anxious, afraid, perplexed, and in doubt. That's what you are. So good luck. You know? Good luck. If you run, you might run into a wall. You know? You might run right into a more toxic event. If you stand still and don't move, you might become, you know, poisoned by the toxic event. If you fight it. But basically everything you're doing is coming out of anxiety, perplexity, and doubt. So that's how you're operating, and people don't usually operate very well when they're perplexed, in doubt, and anxious. On the other hand, if there's a toxic event there and you observe it just like the other person, you observe it arise, but you see it with right wisdom and don't grasp these extremes, you see how it happens, and then you make a good response.

[41:12]

You're not anxious. You're not in doubt. You're not in doubt. You see how it is. That's what you're doing. You're seeing. Well, I'm not in doubt. It's happening like this. You know, the toxic event came right from there, and it's going over there, so we should all move over here. Not trying to get rid of the toxic event because we see it's happening, and we see how it's happening. Because we see how it's happening, we can protect beings from it. Toxic events can be, you know, in the environment or they can be in people's minds. People can think toxic activity, like hurting themselves. When this arises, how are we going to protect this being from this toxic thought they have? Get them to look at it. When they see how it is, they'll respond appropriately. Okay? Okay? Yes, Tariq?

[42:18]

When you have someone observing the event, and yet you are also the person in the event, it seems in some ways that you create a duality of yourself. In other words, you're doing this thing, perhaps as you normally would, So Dorit says, when you have someone who is observing an event. Now, we can be careful not to set up someone who is observing the event. We could just go to a more simple situation of when we have observing of the event, we don't have to have somebody doing the observing. We can have the observing just be observing. If you add in somebody who's doing it, then I think you're adding somebody who's doing it. You're adding something. What I don't understand is that what... Who is this someone who is observing the event? Observing yourself during the event. Is it yourself? I mean, obviously it's yourself, but... Obviously it's yourself.

[43:24]

You say that, right? And obviously it's... But some people would say obviously it's not yourself. Where did it come from? Where did it come from? What's it doing to the other? What's what doing to the other? Again, you keep setting up this observing person, right? But am I an observing person or is there observation going on here? So let's say that this body and mind were put into a deep sleep, okay? Would I be an observing person? Not if I was asleep, right. Then we suddenly, this body and mind become awake. Now, I'm an awake person. I'm an awake person. When I was a sleep person, I was a sleep person. Right? Okay. So, when I'm asleep, am I doing the sleep? Am I doing my unconsciousness?

[44:27]

Well, do you think so? I think most people, a lot of people might think, no, you're not doing your sleep. You're a sleeping person, but you're not doing your sleeping. You're not doing your unconsciousness. When you wake up, do you do your waking up? Well, do you think so, really? Do you think you wake yourself up? Do you do that? I don't feel that way when I wake up. The alarm clock wakes me up. I don't feel like I do that. This person wakes up, but I don't feel like I did it. When you go to sleep, do you think you put yourself to sleep? I don't feel like that when I go to sleep. Huh? What? If you think you're... Try it sometime when you're going to sleep. See if you think you're putting yourself to sleep. Watch yourself put yourself to sleep. I think you may find that you don't put yourself to sleep. That if you try to put yourself to sleep, you stay awake. It's when you forget about you trying to go to sleep. So I know some people that really have a hard time going to sleep because they try to get themselves to go to sleep.

[45:31]

And if you try to get yourself to sleep, that will probably not work very well. Well, actually, you forget yourself for a second and you go to sleep. And when you're sleeping, you can wake up without you. Sleeping person does not do this thing called waking up. That's how I feel. That's my experience. That's the way I see it. But it is very common for people to think they do their going to sleep, they do their waking up, and they do their observing. But there can be sleeping, there can be going to sleep without the person thinking that they're doing it. There can be waking up without the person thinking that she's doing it. And there can be observing without a person doing it. But we think, we're built to think, I do everything I do. Even though if you think about it, It doesn't make sense. You don't do your happy feelings, do you? Well, if you don't know, if you don't know, then why would you set up?

[46:35]

You know, there's a living person here and he feels happy. I do not turn on the happy thing on me. You come over to me, slap me in the face, I do not slap myself in the face. I do not get you to slap me in the face. If I feel pain when you slap me in the face, I do not do that pain. That's how I feel. I've looked and I didn't see myself doing the pain I feel. When I get a headache, I don't think I did that headache. Huh? Huh? could cause it well that's that's what we think i'm giving you examples where you can see that you don't have to see it that way right because a lot of times we we think we're doing something when we're really not so most people can't think of anything that happens to them they think everything they do they cause and so employees don't look if you look carefully you'll see nothing that happens to you do you cause you don't cause anything

[47:40]

If you start with the examples of where you think, okay, I'm going to go bang my head against the wall, and that'll give me a headache, right? So I cause the headache, right? That's a normal, a lot of people would think that. Because they think, I can make myself go put my head against the wall. I can do that, right? Isn't that what people think? So, you know, I don't want to tempt you, you know, by saying, you know, I don't think you can go bang your head against the wall because someone would say, oh, yes, I can. Watch, I'm going to go bang my head against the wall. But if I say now, none of you can bang your head against the wall, which I just said, I'm happy that none of you are banging your head against the wall, but I did say that. Now, if you're banging your head against the wall, oh. Right. So Dory's head was banging against the wall.

[48:43]

Did Dory do that? Huh? Yeah. So that's what you think, right? Right. Now, is the way you feel, did you do that too? I don't know that yet, because the thought is. I sort of, I have one quick thing, maybe it's kind of scary now that there's nothing there. I don't like that. But, so I don't know. Well, that, that, that, you said it's scary to, what's scary now again? Because there's nothing there is kind of scary kind of thing? That's the scary part, huh? Yeah, I think it's scary. Nothing is kind of scary to a lot of people. If you think nothing exists... I mean, if you think there's a thing that exists called nothing, that might be quite scary. To give existence to nothing might be quite scary. And the fear of nothing is part of what keeps people away from looking at what's going on.

[49:48]

Because they feel like if they look at what's going on, if you like looking at what's going on, you're looking at what's going on rather than grasping what's going on. If you're actually watching what's going on, rather than saying that exists and grasping it, you're afraid that if you just watch what's going on without grasping it, without putting existence on it, you're afraid that you won't have anything, that you'll fall into a deep abyss. But feeling that, you know, the beginning, just before you made that nothing into an existent thing, that openness there was actually the beginning of the meditation, that she recognized that that would be a different way of being, that I don't know. See, she didn't know that for a second. So something she thinks she knows, in other words, when she knows, she gives existence to something. When she banged her head against the wall, I think she gave existence to something. And then when I asked her about the other example, is could she, did she do the way she feels now? Like you bang your head against the wall and you feel a certain way.

[50:52]

Did you do the thing called feeling that way? And you can say, well, the fact that you banged your head against the wall makes your head feel that way. But still, if you would, you know, it's a dangerous practice of banging your head against the wall, but if you would bang your head against the wall, you would notice that it feels different each time you bang your head against the wall. It would be different, and you couldn't control how you felt. After a while, you might start feeling good. You say, my God, but still I did it. Well, did you? Did you do the way you feel? So in some cases you can see, no, I didn't do the way I feel. In other cases you see, I did do the way I feel. In other cases you feel like, I don't know. The I don't know is even in some ways better than no, you didn't do the way you did. The I don't know is actually closer to the middle way. Yeah, we don't do the little way because we're not programmed.

[52:05]

When you say that, is that we're not programmed, like that's the way we come into the earth, not programmed? Or is it we're not programmed because everything out there tells us not to be programmed? I think it's both that we have the kind of a bot, you know, you can train human beings to do things that you can't train monkeys to do. Like, for example, you have a little monkey and a little kid about the same age, or maybe not a monkey, but a chimpanzee, like, I don't know, a six-month-old chimpanzee and a six-month-old human kid. The chimpanzee can walk. can talk, cannot talk, it can walk, it can like, it has all kinds of motor skills that the little baby doesn't, can't do yet. It can like climb in the trees and stuff like that. Much more skillful physically. But if you put the monkey, the chimpanzee in front of the mirror, even a grown chimpanzee in front of a mirror, it never recognizes itself in the mirror.

[53:07]

Maybe, maybe grown ones do, but the baby doesn't. But you put a human little baby, little baby, six-month-old baby, look in the mirror, they go, who is, wow. They get it. We can do that when we're little, like little babies, before we can even walk. Other animals can't. How come? Well, it has something to do with his brain. We've got a brain that can come up with that. That's me. You know, how do you do it? You kind of like, we go like this and it moves and you go like that and it tilts. There's a, yeah, wow. You go boop, boop, and it goes boop, boop. Uh-huh, yeah, wow. Little babies. We've got the equipment to notice this self thing. work that out okay then in addition to that our mother comes by and says whoa look at that the psychologist is amazing you know so that the the social environment stimulates us to develop these self other kind of imaginations in a sense that we're separate from each other and that these things exist so we make up philosophies that some other animals can't

[54:25]

That's what I mean by programmed, both born with the capacity to feel a self and to set a self on top of everything that happens. But that self, that capacity has to be stimulated by the environment. The brain needs intense social engagement in order for certain behaviors have to be imprinted by interactions with intensely interested adults. So if we don't get that kind of interaction, our brain doesn't develop properly. Like, for example, if a kid were to be brought up by all enlightened people, was surrounded by enlightened people, that baby might not develop normally. Or maybe the enlightened people would know how to... The enlightened person might say, you know, we got to do this, what do you call it, we got to develop this kid's delusions.

[55:27]

Otherwise they won't be able to become a Buddha. Because a Buddha is not just, you know, I don't know what, a Buddha is not just a large cockroach, you know, with with some hair on top of the head but not on the forehead. A Buddha is somebody who has the equipment to see self and other, to see dualistic thinking, to imagine, to be able to create philosophies of existence and non-existence. Buddhas can do that. They can see just like we can. But they can also see through this all, through all this. So Buddhists can do everything that an ordinary person can do, and they can see how it works, but they can also see what ordinary person can't see yet without training. They can see both, not that they see both simultaneously.

[56:34]

We have to like, first of all, learn how to see the new way, and then the new way being we need to learn how to see how things are happening. That's the new way for us. The way that we already know, the old way, is to not see how things are happening, but just see how they would promote this illusory self, how they would be an advantage to this illusory separate being. That's our old way. That's our basic selfishness. And we are programmed physically and societally to do that. An enlightened person would help a baby develop an ego so that a baby could understand that. If there were no living beings who hadn't yet become enlightened, I think the Buddhas would all evaporate.

[57:39]

There would be no work left to do and they would just become the same as the way things are. They would just completely merge with interdependence and there would be no sense of separate beings anymore. But that would mean that all the cockroaches and all the banana slugs and all the wolves and all the tigers and all the flies, and all the mosquitoes, and all the bacteria, all beings would have to attain, become enlightened. That's what it would take. Because if there's some that hadn't, the bodies would still keep working. And if there's little babies still coming in the world, they would train those babies to become normal, human delusion areas so they could become buddhas so that they could see self and other and see all this kind of delusion dualistic phenomena so that they could help beings who are still caught in that realm who would be like in your scenario it would be like this one new baby born among all human buddhas but there would still be all the other living beings to save

[58:49]

So that little being was taught to grow up and be a Buddha. In order to be a Buddha, it needs the skill and means that come from understanding how dualistic thought operates. Because Buddhas don't just know about interdependence. They don't just know about the middle way. They also know about grasping extremes. They know about how that works. They know that when you grasp extremes, you're perplexed, anxious, and in doubt. that you're uneasy and incompetent, relatively incompetent. You're competent at causing yourself pain and bothering other people and animals and plants. You're good at that. But you're not good at protecting beings and making beings free and happy because you're anxious and you're trying in every possible way to get yourself free of anxiety which and you use techniques which don't free you from anxiety but just promote your selfishness all of our selfishness is you know gives rise to the anxiety and then we have we think that more selfishness will be a way to get free of the anxiety so what can i do to get myself free of anxiety rather than well

[60:05]

How about instead of concentrating on what to do to get yourself free from anxiety, how about looking at what's happening? That will, in fact, be a way for you to be free of anxiety, but you won't be thinking about how to free yourself from anxiety. You will be watching how your anxiety happens. Rather than trying to get away from your anxiety, you will uprightly face your anxiety. And really face it uprightly means that you see how it comes to be. You will see, you will see, see, see the suffering that is subject to arising, arising. You will see the suffering that is subject to ceasing, ceasing. You'll watch your suffering go up and down. That's what you'll do. That will be the middle way. And when you see things that way, when you see your anxiety coming up, And now you see anxiety coming up, but you see the anxiety that's subject to coming up, coming up.

[61:08]

You see that too. This is the anxiety that will come up now under these circumstances. I feel a different kind of anxiety in that situation. So you watch how the anxiety happens, how it comes to be. Watch how it comes to be and you watch how it ceases. When you're doing that, what happens? No doubt, no perplexity, no anxiety. And not only that, but from that space, that anxiety unreplexed space, you respond well to the conditions under which anxiety arises. Andy? With all the distractions. in the world and the delusional thinking, I have a sense that the only way of doing that is grasping in a way. I want to get the tape of this tonight and listen for a few thousand times.

[62:14]

That's the only way I can do it. Yeah, so, see, that's good. See, he's saying, when he hears about this, then he notices he applies his usual thing to hearing this. But there's some awareness of the application of the habit. What's happening is the habit's arising. And there's an awareness that the habit of clinging is arising. Being aware of that, is like watching the arising of this impulse to grasp. That's a phenomena. So, the phenomena of grasping may still arise, but if there's awareness of it, that's close to watching phenomena arise. And when you forget that you want to get the tape,

[63:16]

Or even if you get the tape, if you forget to listen to it, then there's a ceasing of the wanting to grasp the tape. So you can watch. There I was. I saw this kind of strong clinging to really get that tape and really learn these teachings. There it was. It rose up. And then it went away. And I haven't been interested in listening to tapes for weeks. I've been watching. I haven't seen, I didn't see it arise again. No interest in listening to those tapes. I had some other tapes I'd like to listen to, though. Put those on. And then, oh, I'm listening to these tapes. Yeah, I'd like to listen to these tapes, actually. And then I don't like to listen to them anymore. Like this is a tape, you know, not middle way tape. This is like some nice music, right? I watched that I want to listen to that. But that ceases too. So wanting to listen to, wanting to study Dharma, that desire there arises and then it ceases. Or then wanting to study Dharma arises again and ceases.

[64:18]

And wanting to listen to some music arises and ceases. That's the study. And the more it's watched... The closer you get to see how things happen, the closer you get to see how things happen, the less you can grasp that these extremes just don't arise in the space of watching. If you really see how things happen, you cannot see that this existence thing just doesn't apply. Or to put it easier, is when you watch how things happen, how they arise, this non-existence thing just doesn't come up. and then if you want then they cease and watch how they cease the existence things conduct so you wean yourself from these views you can still come up with them anytime but you gradually let go of them through your study of what's happening but when you first start studying you're still got these habits they're still there you're still setting up all these existence and non-existence self doing this self doing that that's all this big mess is still happening

[65:22]

The difference is that there's some awareness of it. And that's the beginning of establishing the middle way, the awareness of what's happening, how it happens and how things stop happening, and how when they happen it isn't that they exist and when they stop it isn't that they don't exist. It's just that they arise and cease. Matter of fact, they appear to arise and cease. They do appear to arise and cease. And the more you watch how they arise and cease, the closer you get to seeing that they really don't arise and cease. That this suffering isn't really there. It's actually deceptive. It's a deception. But if you don't look, you think it's really there. And not only do you think it's really there, I mean, you think it's there, plus then you think it's really there, so then you put, now that it's there, but it's like, actually exists, really.

[66:25]

So, first you start watching it, and you stop putting onto it, it really exists, and then you start to see the way it actually exists, and when you see the way it actually exists, you see that it doesn't exist by itself. You don't exist by yourself, I don't exist by myself, all these dualities vanish. And you see the way things really are. And this turns out to be very, very helpful. Because then you can, like, you know, help everybody all the time, and it's not tiring. Because you're not gaining and losing anything. You're not doing anything right or wrong. You just have pure love. Can I?

[67:29]

Can I love a toxic person? Definitely. I can love a toxic person. It isn't really me that's doing it, but, you know. On the occasion of the arising of a toxic person, there can be love. And the love goes with watching how the toxic person, how the appearance of the toxic person happens. In seeing how the appearance of the toxic person happens, there is not grasping the extremes of existence and non-existence. There is a middle way. There is peace in the meeting with the toxic person. There is peace. There is contentment. There is love. Yes, definitely. And you can even... Love non-toxic people. And love them means you can watch how they happen and not put existence onto them or non-existence onto them.

[68:31]

Not say, this non-toxic person really exists and therefore I'm going to get her and she's not going to get away from me ever. No. She can live her life. You don't have to own her, even though she's non-toxic. You can just say, hi. You know? And you can take her hand and walk through birth and death with her so that she will learn how to take care of herself. And you can take the hand of the toxic person and walk through birth and death with her, too. Both of them. You help both of them. Because the duality of self and other has dropped away in this vision of how things actually are. Words would be helpful.

[69:39]

I see a person and And they're covered with sores. And they're staggering down the street, waving their arms all over the place, almost falling down, seeming to be screaming and hollering, seeming to be possessed by violent energy and violent expression. And so then I see there's such a thing. This is what I see. Such a thing arises for me. In some sense, this is all arising inside of me.

[70:46]

This is my perception of the person. This is what I see. I see this, and I feel a certain way about what I see. Who knows what the person is? Maybe if I put my glasses on, they'd look differently. But anyway, what I'm seeing, this is what I see, this is what my brain's creating, and I have certain feelings about what I see. And if I watch that, all that, or if... take away I, but if in observing all that, and not... and just continue like observing it, and watching it arise, and watching it cease, and watching it arise, and watching it cease, and watching it arise, and watching it cease, that's the practice. And there's no grasping that this... that that exists, that this really exists there, out there, Or that it doesn't exist. Like, this is just a phantom, you know, it doesn't exist.

[71:48]

It's really not there. I am having these experiences. But these experiences are to be watched. These experiences are to be watched. Not to be subject to me proclaiming they exist. They do not exist. Which means you enter into this middle way, which is scary because you kind of like don't know. You're not like saying, okay, that toxic person really does exist. No. That person appears to be a toxic person. It does appear that way, but I'm not going to say it exists. I'm just going to watch how it happens that I have this perception. And how I feel having this perception. I would watch the impulse to step into the doorway. And if I had not yet attained the middle way, then my going to step into the doorway, if I was observing my impulse to step into the doorway, and if I would attribute existence or nonexistence to my impulse to step into the doorway,

[73:04]

then I would step into the doorway in a state of anxiety, doubt, and perplexity. If I had the idea of stepping into the doorway, and I watched the idea of stepping into the doorway, and saw how it happened, how it comes to be, and how it ceases, and how it comes to be again, and how it ceases, in that vision of the middle way, I might or might not step into the doorway. But whether I get into the doorway or not, I'm a happy camper. If I get into the doorway, I'm unperplexed and unafraid. If I stay out of the doorway, I'm unperplexed and unafraid because I'm operating on the basis of how things are happening rather than conferring reality or unreality on things by saying they exist or don't exist. So whatever happens, You're going into the mode of seeing how it's happening rather than the mode of conferring reality on it or truth or falsehood.

[74:10]

So you don't go around saying, this is true and that's false. You don't do that. You put your energy into, this is how it's happening, this is how it's happening, this is how it's arising, this is how it's ceasing. And based on that, you're going to respond really well to what's happening. You're not going to You're not going to turn around and run away from somebody who's not going to hurt you and get run over by a truck. You're going to respond in accordance with the way things are happening and that's the best thing to do for you and everybody else. But you have to be concentrating on what's happening rather than hearing something and saying, this is true and that's false. enlightened person doesn't go this is true and this is false they say this is a deception this is just something that's appearing it's not it's not ultimately true but this is what seems to be happening this suffering seems to be happening it's hiding whatever it is is hiding the way things really are and if i watch how it's happening i will see how things really are and then

[75:23]

I will be tuned in the way things really are and this body and mind will respond in a very good way because I'll be hooked into what's actually going on. So, see you next week. It's a short scripture. It's all right there. Thank you.

[75:49]

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