Now, as I remember, last week there were several questions at the end of class. Is that right? So if I start presenting material, then there'll be new questions, and the old questions will get lost in the dust. So I'd like to start with the old questions, if people who had them can remember them. There are about five people, some of whom are here, I think. Do you remember your questions? People had questions? Do you remember them? Want to ask them? You're not sure? You're not sure you want to? Well, why don't you ask it and then And then let me judge.

[01:03]

In reference, we talked about last week various situations where, in thinking of right speech, there might be beneficial results as well as harmful results. And we were looking for some situations. So I had a situation where a friend was asking me for my opinion or my experience with another person. I sensed that she was having some confusion around the issue and had had some negative experiences. And by chance, I had also had a negative impression or experience of unease with this other person. So in thinking of what would be not speech or an appropriate response, it seemed to me that the proof for an honest answer would be helpful to sort through some of her conclusions. But at the same time we had another person with us, a friend, who had no, at best had a neutral, perhaps a positive experience.

[02:10]

And so I felt that if I spoke honestly of what my feelings were, that would be helpful for the one person, but harmful for the second person, because it would then influence what her feelings were unnecessarily. So there is that chromatic realm event. To me, it brought up two larger questions, which is what I wish to pose. And one is... Could we handle that problem right away? Okay, so I think that... Could you hear what she said? So sometimes, well, let's say, anyway, sometimes two people are there and you're asked to speak about some topic. And for person A, it would be helpful to speak. But for person B, it would not be helpful to speak. Okay? In that case, I would suggest that you tell person A that you'd like to talk to them later about it. There are many situations like that.

[03:12]

For example, You have a 13-year-old child and a 4-year-old child who ask you a certain question, perhaps about sex. A 13-year-old would be helpful to hear about. The 4-year-old would be confusing. So you just say, let's talk about that later, so and so. So the one who could be harmed doesn't hear it, and the one who could be helped hears it. So that's how I would handle that situation. Okay? Sounds easy, right? But you have to have the presence of mind to notice what you notice and then... and then come up with, let's talk about that later. I'd like to talk about that later. Which is not that easy to do because you're feeling various, you know, things, you know. You're feeling...

[04:14]

that you want to help this person, you don't want to hurt that person, you're wondering how the person will feel if you postpone it, blah, blah, blah. So to me it's a simple case, but in the situation it might be hard for me to restrain myself from being helpful right now. Also it's more convenient to say it right now. The other way you've got to have a separate appointment. So it takes more effort than just to blurt it out and get it over with. So it'd take more effort that way, but I think that would work. So what's the larger question? Well, one of the larger questions was, if I were to, in that situation or in another situation, withhold the information because I felt it would be safer to not harm the additional persons there. If I were to withhold information, does that have any... karmic effects on the first person who is seeking perplication on an issue.

[05:20]

So, mostly we've spoken in terms of karmic results come from speech or from action. Or from thought. Or from thought as well. Yes. Is there, if one is withholding information that is actually sought by another person, what are the effects? To intentionally not speak is a karmic act. To have the impulse to not say something. And you intend, or I intend, to not say something. That is karma. It's not speech karma, in a sense. It's just a mental impulse. Well, I guess in a sense it is speech karma. To think of saying something and to stop yourself from saying it, primarily with the intention of stopping the impulse.

[06:24]

You have an impulse to speak, but you think it's inappropriate. In a sense, that's not speech karma. But maybe it is, actually. Maybe in both cases it counts. Yeah. Yeah. In some sense, stopping yourself is a kind of speech karma. Stopping yourself from speaking is a kind of speech karma, but it's definitely mental karma. But it's not the same as if you speak. Even thinking of saying something and not saying it is not the same as saying it. And thinking of not saying it Actually, thinking of not... Now my mind's clearing up. Thinking of saying something is not the same as saying it. Thinking of not saying something is not the same as not saying it. So one thing is the thought of not saying something. The other is the not saying of it in the next moment or succeeding moments.

[07:26]

So to not speak... The innumerable things you don't speak that you intend not to speak... are speech karma. The innumerable things that you don't speak that you had no intention to not speak, the things you don't say that you don't intend not to say are not speech karma. The things you think of saying are not speech karma. The things you say are speech karma. The things you think of saying are mental karma. The things you think of not saying are mental karma. Things you don't say that you intend not to say are verbal karma. The things you do say that you intend to say are verbal karma. But the things you don't say that you don't intend not to say are not karma. And the things you do say that you don't intend to say are not verbal karma. But those are tricky because that would be primarily things like someone scares you and you go, ah!

[08:31]

That's not an impulsive speech. But unconscious, slips of tongue and so on, unconscious things that you're not conscious of, that you're not aware of, that blurt out, those do count as verbal speech, as verbal karma. Because there is an impulse there that you're not aware of. But if there's no impulse at all and some kind of speech comes out of you, a word or a sound, that's not karma. That's what I'm saying. Okay? Does that make sense? Was it too fast? Intended non-action, impulsive non-action has consequences. For example, one of the main examples is in Buddhism, in Zen, intending

[09:33]

to not move has major impact. Intending not to move, intending to be still transforms your life. Especially intending not to move for the welfare of all beings is a very wholesome act. And the Buddha did that. Then to actually then physically not move is a physical action which you performed here at the beginning of this session and which we do every week. That's an action. If you do it, If you, like, intend to come here and sit still and you actually... That intention is, generally speaking, and I would say in this class anyway, that intention is a wholesome intention. It is a wholesome mental action. The actual physical posture to take it and sit there is innumerable. In one period of sitting here for half an hour, you did innumerable, you know, millions, you did millions of karmic acts while you sat here.

[10:41]

Millions of times you intended to sit here and did. Millions of times you could have moved. Millions. And you didn't. You did millions of positive, wholesome, karmic acts in that period of meditation by sitting still. So not moving and also being silent. But I don't know if probably you weren't so much intending to be silent, but some of you maybe were actually like trying to be quiet, stopping yourself from talking or whatever. But anyway, to intentionally be quiet, to intentionally not move, intentional inaction is action. Because the definition of action is intention. If there's an intention, there's action. Okay? But to sit still without the intention to be still, like when you're asleep, to be still when you're asleep without the intention, if there is no intention, isn't karma.

[11:45]

To be under anesthetic and not move, that's not karma. And also to be under anesthetic and move is not karma, you know, some twitch or something is not karma. That's my understanding. What do you think? Make sense? At least that I'm saying that? Any other questions, Marcia? Well, just the related question was, when I thought of that situation and deliberately complicated it by acknowledging perhaps that people... in the room, and then afterwards go off and speak to their family or friends or colleagues. And the effects of my words would have a rippling effect. To what extent am I responsible for each of those ripples And where does the next person's responsibility pick up for it?

[12:51]

Are they themselves making a decision to speak or not to speak? Or can we both be responsible for the same action? Yeah. So the way I understand it is we're not responsible for other people's karma. However, if I say something... Everything you do, as it affects me, I'm responsible for. That's different, but I'm not responsible for your doing of the deed. I'm responsible for how it is that when you do your deeds, which you're responsible for, how they affect my life, I'm responsible for that. So, for example, if I try to do something helpful for you, then, and that's my intention, and then I act, and let's say I'm fairly successful and sophisticated and skillful about trying to do something helpful, then your life and how you live and the benefit that that might bring in our relationship, I would experience that.

[14:01]

That would come back to me as, gee, it is good to be good to somebody. That is good. That works out nicely. But some of the responses I get from you might be karma and some might not be. For example, if you say something kind to someone and they seem to relax, and you see them feel like the lines in their face go away or something, or you notice their breathing changes and you feel they're more present. That might be your intention, to make them relax and be more present. You might be instructing them and trying to help them be more present and more aware. So you notice that they are. But being more relaxed is not karma. You can try to relax, but just relaxing is not karma, usually. You're changing your breathing and being more present is not karma. So there could be some non-karmic... So the person is just responding, but not karmically, to your kindness.

[15:08]

That's a consequence that comes back to me. And the other person isn't responsible for that either, karmically. It's just something that happens to them by the sound of my voice and the content of the message. Just again... If someone comes up to you and I don't know what, you know, this is kind of a violent example, but if someone came up to you and injected a sedative into you and you didn't ask for it, they just came up and stuck it in, you're relaxed. Or even passed out. Your relaxation would not be due to your karma. Your relaxation would not be a karmic act. Now you're then injecting the sedative into you might be due to your karma. If you were in a psych ward and going around punching all the inmates or the staff, they might put a sedative into you. So the injection might be the results of your karma.

[16:13]

But the relaxation due to the injection is not a karmic act. However, your relaxation is a result of your karma because you know, everything in your life in a sense is a result of your karma. But not all results are karmic acts. However, if I say something to you However you respond to what I say, whether it's karmically or not karmically. So I didn't give a karmic example. Karmic example might be I do something kind and you might say, thank you very much. That was really helpful. And you might have intended to say that. That's a result that comes back to me and is a karmic act on her part. That you're responsible for karmically. But I'm not responsible for your karma. my responsibility is fulfilled, at least partially, by your response. Because responsibility means both ability to respond and also the way other things respond to you by your... the way you respond to things.

[17:24]

So when you do something, there are consequences, and sometimes the consequences are the way it affects other people, and sometimes the way it affects other people is that they respond... in a not karmic way, and sometimes they respond in a karmic way. But the way that comes back to you is the consequences for you. But the karma they do is you're not responsible for the karma they do. That's what I say. But of course, if you say something mean to someone, and then they go bang their head against the wall, The fact that they're banging their head against the wall, you're responsible for the fact that that's happening, but you're not responsible for the karma. Well, the difference is that you're not responding, you're not responsible for the fact that they intended to do that, but you are responsible for that you live in a world where they're doing that. But you're not responsible for the intention to do it.

[18:27]

Because only that person can give rise to the intention. But you are responsible for living in the world where they're doing it. However, other people are also responsible for living in the world where they do it. Everybody that's in that world where that person is banging their head against the wall is responsible for it. Not just the person who said the thing to them. That's a new dimension. Pick that one up So, I'm speaking and there's a response among you to my speech. Some of your responses are karmic, some of your responses are not karmic. I'm responsible for the way I experience what your responses to me are. I'm responsible for the way your responses affect me.

[19:33]

I'm responsible for that. I'm not responsible for your response. I'm responsible for the way it comes back to me. Everybody else is in the room too, and although you may not be speaking, you are, if you're not speaking, if you are not speaking intentionally, then that not speaking intentionally will be part of the reason for the way you experience everybody's response to me talking. Some of you will be happy at some people's responses. Some of you will be unhappy with people's responses. Your happiness and unhappiness, you're responsible for. None of us are responsible for what the person does. And you're not responsible for what happens to you if you didn't do any karma. Then what happens to you is what?

[20:38]

What's that? What are things that happen to you that have nothing to do with the actions you've done? Are there such things? Huh? Like what? Huh? If somebody commits suicide, you're not responsible for them committing suicide, right? In that event of them committing suicide, you're not responsible for them doing it. I say that, right? What else aren't you responsible for? We said you're not responsible for the act. Pardon? You are responsible for how it affects you. But in what way would the way it affects you be something that you're not responsible for? Huh? Pardon? That's the same as before.

[21:41]

This is hard. The way that you're not responsible for the way something would affect you is when it really doesn't affect you. You're not responsible for that. So when things happen and have no effect on you, You're not responsible for that. And that's kind of strange to say because it's almost like saying, well, then there's nothing that happens that I'm not responsible for because nothing doesn't affect me. But that's not necessarily true. Some things don't affect you, maybe. They happen and they have almost no effect on you. You don't feel happy. You don't feel sad. You don't feel distracted. You don't feel concentrated. You don't feel encouraged. You don't feel discouraged. And things that happen like that, that have almost nothing to do with you, even though they seem to happen, in some sense, you're not responsible for those.

[22:48]

You could say. When it bothers you, you're responsible for the fact that it bothers you. Whenever. Later, now. Whenever something happens and you feel bothered by it, the feeling bothered, you're responsible for. That's because of the way you understand the situation. And the way you understand the situation is connected to the things you have done. And the things you have done are connected to the way you understand the world. And the way you understand the world is... Huh? You're separate. You're separate. So if you think you're separate, then you may or may not do karma. If you think you're separate, you may not necessarily be doing karma non-stop all the time, even if you think you're separate. But sometimes you probably will do karma.

[23:52]

Most people do. As a result of the karma, the result of the karma is the way you experience what happens to you. If you do bad things, what we call bad things, they're bad because what they do is they make you experience what's happening to you as bad. That's one of the main reasons why they're called bad, because they make you feel tormented by what's happening. So when you hear of someone committing suicide, you feel tormented by that. Now, what about someone who is compassionate? What do they feel when they hear of a suicide? Do they feel pain? Probably. Especially if they knew the person or would actually be anywhere near the person or near the people, anybody related to the person, they would feel pain. Would the pain feel experienced as torment? No. Who is this person that's not tormented by this?

[24:55]

Who is this hypothetical person who is not tormented by hearing about somebody else's suffering? Huh? The compassionate person is not tormented. They feel compassion. They want that person to be happy. That's what they feel. They painfully want that person to be happy. I mean, they deeply, painfully, I mean, they want the person to be happy to the point of pain. Put it that way. Or put it this way, maybe it's better to put it this way. Until that person's happy, they're going to have some pain. They need the person to be happy in order to feel really good. That can be the response to somebody else's suffering rather than feeling tormented by it. In what situation might you feel tormented by someone else's suffering? What kind of situation that might be?

[25:57]

Huh? If you're married to them, if you're married to them, or if they're your children, or if they're your parents, in other words, situations where you think your actions have something to do with it, or you feel some responsibility for the suffering, then the suffering, then the thing can torment you. When your own understanding of your own karma is such that you feel that what's happening, not necessarily their karma, but what's happening is you're responsible for it. then you can be tormented by what happens or be very happy by what's happening. You can be very happy that other people are happy. Especially when you think you had something to do with it. It can make you very happy. Now what about if you're not involved in karma? You don't think that way and people are happy. Would you be happy about that? If they were happy? If you weren't involved in karma? In other words, you were enlightened?

[27:01]

By involved in karma, I mean that you're beyond thinking of yourself as separate. If people were happy, would you feel happy about that? Hmm? You don't think so, Kate? No. I thought that, well, it would just be, you know, the same. It would be the same as? Joy is sort of constant. If you're not involved... Yeah, I think what she means is that if you were involved in a sense of separation, you'd be free of anxiety, you'd be happy, and when you met a happy person, you'd just continue to be happy. It wouldn't make much difference. I think that's right. Is it possible that your happiness could increase? I think so. Get this. If you're free of the idea that you're separate from other beings, if you're free of that idea, you're free.

[28:08]

Period. Big time. Free. You're free of anxiety when you're free of that sense that you're separate from other people. Okay? Your actions, your speech, all your actions will become right speech, right life. All that stuff will be immediately purified and spontaneously correct. Okay? So you're happy. All right? Now, when other people can join in that, and when your behavior encourages them to do things which will purify their karma and help them awake up, guess what? Your joy can increase. Infinitely. The joy of personal liberation is enormous. It is authentic. It is unshakable. It is unassailable. It is permanent. However, it can be infinitely expanded when other beings are included in it.

[29:09]

It's complete in itself. There's no problem with it, except if somebody's left out, and that's compassion. When somebody else's sadness presses on your happiness and makes you need them to also experience freedom. And all this has got, now this discussion has got nothing to do with karma. And the speech at this point and the postures and the thoughts are not karmic anymore because there's no idea of the self which is the author of these things. And then when a person is speaking and thinking and making postures from such a place, their actions are more likely to not only be, you know, right speech, which means that it's kind and gentle and true and serious or, you know, sincere and playful and happy,

[30:24]

all that in such a way as to encourage the other people to meditate and be present and be aware of their karma. And actually their speech then basically leads people to become enlightened. So enlightened beings actually can learn how to talk in such a way as to enlighten other beings. This is the best situation, I would say. And the way enlightened beings talk is that sometimes they say, talk like enlightened beings. So enlightened beings talk gently, talk honestly, don't talk harshly, you know. They don't gossip. They don't slander. They don't speak of others' faults. They don't do that. However, they don't do that without making that into karma.

[31:29]

Before we are free of the idea of ourself as being separate, we're doing karma. So then we do karma like an enlightened person would act. But an enlightened person's actions are not karma because they don't do it, because they don't think that way. So we act like an enlightened person would act, but it's still karmic for us. It's very good, and it is right speech, to speak in these ways. but it's still karma. It does produce wholesome results, it does produce good fortune, it does produce happiness, but it also is still caught up in that illusion of separateness. So what we need to do is we need to add into this another kind of right speech. There's two kinds.

[32:30]

One kind is worldly right speech, which is good, which is meritorious, which is beneficial, which is conducive to real practice. And the other kind is, you might say, not beyond the world, right speech, which is conducive to the path of liberation, which brings us in line with the way of being, which is not karmic. which brings us into alignment with the way of being where our life is not based on being separate from other beings. But we can use those karmic acts that are based on a sense of separateness as a way to tune into an understanding of non-separation. And practicing right speech in this dualistic way promotes our opportunity of practicing it non-dualistically.

[33:44]

So non-dualistically you will speak kindly, There would be kind speech but you wouldn't do it. There would be sincere speech but you wouldn't do it. There would be truthful speech but you wouldn't do it. There would be encouraging speech. There would be these kinds of speech. There would be right speech but you wouldn't do it. But you'd know that it was coming out of, which mouth it was coming out of. You'd know which mouth it was coming out of. You could still keep track of that if you needed to. Who said that? You know, who said that? What signal do you want? Raise your hand. Okay. And you could say, I said it. But you wouldn't fall for that I. You wouldn't say, I, I separate from you said it. That wasn't who said it. It was said not by the eye that's separate from you. A lot of people say that you're a terror.

[35:16]

A lot do. Yeah. Just last night before we had this koan class, somebody said that they said they'd come to the koan class and they're afraid to go to the koan class that we have at Green Gulch. And somebody said, what's the reason? And I think I said, what's the reason? This is at the dinner table. And the woman said, I think you're the reason. I think you're the cause. And I don't know if I asked her, but I said, you know, what is it, how am I the cause? So various theories came up about how I'm the cause of the fear in the class. One possibility is that maybe I know the answer to the cons. Another one is, and therefore I might tell them that they're wrong.

[36:22]

Another possibility, another reason why I'm, why they're afraid is because I look like I'm not afraid. Anyway, so yes, so people say that I'm a terrorist, and you've heard people say that? Huh? Yes. So what did you bring that up for? Because I was thinking that's the second non-dualistic behavior. You know, I was thinking, actually, I was thinking of the Zen master who cut the cat in two. Yes. I'm sure he didn't mean to be cruel to the cat. But let's stay on right speech, shall we? How does this thing about what you're just reporting have to do with right speech? It does not. It doesn't? So you're really being the devil's advocate. You're even changing the topic. It must connect somehow. Oh, it does, I'm sure. But how?

[37:24]

Well, you were talking about kindness. Yes. Unmitigated kindness. And I was thinking that I'm sure that sometimes the teachers, in fact, the visit to the school tell kids to students that on the surface it doesn't seem so kind. I see, or seems harsh or something. I guess so, but it's supposedly along the lines of awakening the person. Yes, right. So, there are examples of the Buddha, you know, Shakyamuni Buddha, there are examples where he did speak, kind of, this one guy, he said, you know, What did he say to him? I think he called him... There's various translations of what he said, but there was something like fool, stupid, stuff like that.

[38:34]

The Buddha said that to somebody who was being very persistent about something. And not only that, but he didn't successfully awaken him on the spot. Now, there's all the Zen stories where the teacher yells at the student some kind of harsh thing, and he wakes up. And in the story we were talking about last night, the master... was being criticized by his students. His students were kind of like saying stuff like, the old boy doesn't seem to catch on anymore. When it comes to non-duality, you know, lovers can say things to each other which are very enlightening, which promote intimacy and, you know, manifest the meaning of life. really are not harmful that's why i'm saying you know the the mother when the father and the mother you know are together what they do the children shouldn't see sometimes it's not meant for the children to see because they're in another realm sometimes enlightened beings might i don't know what they might do blankety blank and it might be totally

[39:48]

You know? Totally enlightening and freeing and it'd be like, you know, it's their sport time, you know? But other people shouldn't do that. And what they're doing when they come back into the realm of people who are involved in karma, they say stuff like, She speaks in words that are gentle, soothing to the ear, loving. They go to the heart. They are courteous, friendly, and agreeable. They never speak out of anger. They never speak out of lust. They always speak out of kindness, okay? That's instruction for people that are in karma. People who aren't in karma, They can do anything, especially with other people who are also free. The Buddha said, you know, to his monks, he said, you know, these rules that I've given you are not for me.

[41:08]

I don't practice according to them. He said it's like a prince or a queen or somebody that has her own, you know, what do you call it, park where she plays. She doesn't have to follow any rules there. It's her park. But other people have to follow rules because it's not their park. For the Buddha, everything... is right speech. Everything the Buddha says is right speech. Everything the Buddha says is right action, does is right action. Everything the Buddha does is right, right, right, complete, complete, complete. But for people who don't see that everything that happens is right and complete, there are rules. But that doesn't mean that when you see somebody do something and you don't like it, that you shouldn't ask a question.

[42:09]

And... Matter of fact, it'd probably be very helpful if you did. Ask a question about what's going on here. Ask, you know, how is that compassionate? And so on. But overall, Buddha didn't say... I mentioned that thing about him calling that guy stupid because that was the only place I ever found him calling anybody stupid in all the scriptures. It wasn't like in every other scripture he says to call somebody stupid. That's the only one I saw him doing that. Another time he got a little terse with somebody, but basically he didn't do it very often, but he did do it sometimes. he did speak in a harsh way to one of his students and Buddha taught Buddha taught right speech Buddha taught right speech he taught right speech over and over and over and he said right speech is not to speak harshly and he spoke harshly did he make a mistake at that time if you asked him he might have said yeah or no I don't know what he would have said didn't ask him but it looked harsh two and a half

[43:28]

millennia later to me. But his teaching is very clear about what right speech is. But that right speech is right speech for somebody who's involved in karma. If you're involved in karma, you should speak that way. If you're not involved in this karma, you will speak that way. but not because you're trying to speak that way. That's what comes from you. And sometimes it might look to somebody like it's harsh. It's possible. And if it does and you don't understand that, ask that person. And if that person is someone who's selfless, they will come and they will interact with you over that. They will be happy to talk to you about that. And that interaction will be enlightening. And if it's not, then you say, hey, wait a minute. That wasn't enlightening. And you keep going there. You have to come in there and, you know, get the milk out of the cow. What do you think? I think to tie into this labeling of you as a terror.

[44:33]

A holy terror, by the way? Ultimately, my question is about a defensive reaction that you may get from someone. Yes. Also, we talked about the difference between creating harm and the idea of creating pain. Yes. I do believe there's a great difference between the two. But in my job, I'm often asked to... engaging interpersonal communication with people I don't know very well. Yes. And also to look for blockages, for instance, and go after them. And I find that often creates pain or fear. Yeah. Which can be good. Yes, it can be. But sometimes there's a very defensive reaction. Yeah.

[45:36]

Right? Fear is a defensive reaction. Wow. Okay. And there seems to be no... I say fear is a defensive reaction. I can explain that to you later, but anyway. And because of that, it seems to reinforce that blockage in a way that I'm not going after. Uh-huh. That can happen, right? Right. It can tense up. And that seems to create harm. It might, yeah. It's possible. It's possible to push too hard and then the person goes into spasm, so to speak, like if you're doing massage or something and somebody's got a tense spot, you can push on it in such a way as to stimulate relaxation or information to the person, and then with that information Your touch in combination with the tense spot gives them information which their body then can learn from and figure out what it wants to do.

[46:38]

Without the touch in that spot, maybe they don't have enough information even to be aware of that area. So your touch can help the person wake up at that stuck point. So if there's a blockage in the body or the mind, if you touch that place and the person can pay attention to that, they can understand and release. And the creative, in art or whatever, creative energy starts flowing again. So a teacher can do that. Like if somebody's painting, you come over and you can just touch the painting or touch their hand or something. One of the stories I like the best is that story, maybe I told you, some of you already heard this, is Isaac Stern went to China to teach, you know, Isaac Stern's a violinist, and he also teaches violin. So he went to China to teach Chinese people how to play the violin. So in one scene, there's this, looks like about a 20-year-old, 18 or 20-year-old Chinese man, man he's playing the violin and he's very skillful you know sounds this you can see he's very skillful he's playing beethoven or something or mozart he's playing he's very skillful he's very proficient and isaac stern comes over to him and says you're senior you know he says i don't know if he says you're stiff but he's kind of stiff he's he's proficient but he's stiff i don't know if he says it but he says he says you're not singing he says sing

[48:05]

He said, make it sing, sing. And the boy's good enough so he can keep playing while this guy's yelling at him. And of course he has to yell at him so he can hear. And the rest of the orchestra's going too. But he's good enough to be able to continue to play while being given instruction. Some things you're doing, you can barely do it, and when you get instruction, you can hardly keep doing them, right? Like sometimes in the yoga classes here, if you're doing a headstand or something, and then somebody gives you instruction, you try to do it, you fall over. You can barely stay up in your bad way, and to try to make an adjustment, you can't make the adaptation, you fall over, right? So if you're playing the violin or something, and someone's talking to you, it's hard to take the information in or the instruction and keep playing. This boy could do that. He could listen and keep playing. And then Isaac Stern started singing. So instead of saying, telling him to sing, he started singing. And he pushed the boy, you know.

[49:06]

He touched that stiff point and he sang to it and he pushed him off into his other realm. And you could hear the violin started singing. So the teacher in that case found the sticking point Sang to it and pushed it and the guy could stay with it and go beyond but sometimes if you push they drop the violin and Then you know they don't learn that much I mean they break their violin or they drop the violin they feel embarrassed in this and they don't want to They don't want to take classes for three weeks That's not always bad and some people need that but this is a case where the person was good enough to get pushed and take it in and move beyond and and to really, you know, move into music rather than karma. It went beyond karma in a way. It wasn't him anymore, you know? And you can help a person who's quite aware of their karma. You can take them and bring them into attention with it and just touch it a little bit and then they become so aware of it that they realize they're not doing it.

[50:14]

Then it moves into another realm. But if you push too hard... then they can become less aware. They can react becoming less aware. You can reduce their awareness. If you reduce their awareness, that doesn't seem so helpful. So then you learn, hopefully you're aware and you don't check out too, so you learn from your mistake. And next time maybe you look more careful when you touch And the same with speaking. You speak sometimes in a critical way, but you sometimes check. Many people come to me and say, if you see any blah blah or blah blah, please tell me. If you see me going off the path, please tell me. If you see anything that I, if I'm not aware of what I'm doing, please tell me.

[51:18]

People ask me to tell them how they're doing in the practice. And I say, well, I'll try, but sometimes I see something, but I don't see the opportunity. Like sometimes, you know, when people are eating lunch, like eating lunch or getting their food in the food line at Green Gulch, I see a lot of opportunities. to help people become more aware. I see a lot of situations where I'm not sure that people are paying attention. I do. I see a lot. But to go around and adjust people's posture, you know, while they're sitting, you know, they're sitting there, you know, slumped over their food, talking, not paying attention to what they're eating and so on and so forth. To bring their attention to it, they might be embarrassed, you know. But sometimes I do. Sometimes I go up to people who are eating and I put my hand on their back and straighten their posture, just like in this class, as though they were meditating but slouching. Sometimes when people are in the meal line, I sometimes go up and pull their head back a little bit. But these are people that have asked me.

[52:18]

And sometimes I feel like I can't do it because they'll be embarrassed or it's too much. Most of the time I can't do it. Most of the time I feel like it's too much. They're not ready for it. They asked me for it, but I don't think now. But sometimes, right in the middle of everything, for the people who are asked, I go up and I say, here it is. This is the moment. You look like you're totally checked out. And sometimes they say, Oh yeah, thanks. And sometimes they say, who do you think you are?

[53:26]

Sometimes I ask beforehand, you remember the other day when you asked me, you said you wanted some feedback, if I see anything, and you asked me to tell you if I saw something, remember that? And I say, no, I don't. So then I say, oh, okay, excuse me. Or, yeah, I remember saying it, but so what? Yeah. Or, you know, One time, this guy was serving me food in the meditation hall, and he consistently had his feet being like this or like this or like this. They were always like this. One foot was straight and one foot was off to the right. It was always like that. I thought, gee, that's kind of funny that, you know, I could see that one day it would be off to the right, the next day they'd be straight, the next day off to the left or pointed in. But always to be off to the right, it's like either he's intentionally doing that or he has a kind of unconscious habit, and I wonder which it is.

[54:33]

So I said to him, could I ask you a question? And he said, yeah. I said, when you're serving the Zendo, I've noticed this, you know, that one foot is straight and the other one's always off to the right. And he said, so what? And I said, well, I was just wondering if you noticed that, if that was intentional. It just seemed kind of a coincidence that would happen without you intending to do it. And it would seem funny that you didn't. No, it seemed like it might happen if you weren't intending to do it, just by habit or something, but maybe you're intending to do it, and if you're intending to do it, I wonder why you'd do that. And he said, oh. And then from then on, his feet were all straight. But he did get kind of irritated when I asked him about it. But I, anyway, I do ask people about this kind of stuff because I remember when I was a young monk, sometimes Suzuki Rishi would come up to me and he would offer me some instruction on something, you know, like how to walk in the meditation hall or various things.

[55:44]

You know, he would offer me instruction. I always felt like, oh, great. I'm getting instruction. That's what I came for. But sometimes people forget that they came for instruction. Actually, just last week I was talking to one of the advanced students at You know, teacher trainees at Zen Center, you know, and I talked to him, I talked to him, and at the end, after a long conversation, he said, well, I guess I did ask for this. And I said, yeah, I thought so. I mean, I thought you wanted me to talk to you about this stuff. And when you speak also about something that you're concerned about, that somebody asks you, if somebody says, I want to go north, and you see them going west, it's not that you're criticizing them. That doesn't, you know, you could criticize them. You could say, you said you're going north, and you could be harsh and be angry at them and say, you're going west, you know, rather than, you know, did you say you wanted to go north?

[56:49]

Did I have that right? Now, if you said that to him several times, you might not say, excuse me, but, you know, drive straight now that you want to go north, you might say, hey, you're going west again. So sometimes when you have an ongoing thing, west, west, east, southeast, Once you get the dialogue going, you don't have to necessarily check each time. But a lot of times you have to check, even for the people who said, I want to go north, and I know I might forget, so I want you to, if you see me going some other direction, please point it out to me, because I don't necessarily notice. Same with posture. People say, you know, I want to sit up straight, but I don't necessarily know, so please give me feedback. But even so, sometimes when you first start giving feedback, the first time you do it, you have to check and make sure, now, did you, I thought you wanted that. Are you sure you want that?

[57:50]

They say, well... Sometimes they say, well, no. I changed my mind. But once the dialogues flow, then you can make more comments. Because you get more intimate with this thing. So that's right speech. It's intending to awaken. It's intending to bring people's awareness to what they're doing. It's enlightening. but it has to be given in the right context and that's part of right speech too is to use your speech to try to find out what's going on and what do the people want how can you help them what are they up for that's part of right speech too and not to give the wrong instruction or not to give the instruction at the wrong time like i said last week buddha said if it's harmful and not true, don't say it. If it's harmful and true, don't say it. If it's true, I guess I said if it's true and harmful, don't say it.

[58:58]

If it's not true and harmful, but helpful, don't say it. And if it's true and not harmful, wait for the right time. So sometimes you have something which is true and helpful, but it's not the right time. They don't want to hear it, in the lunch line. They want to hear it some other time. They don't want to hear it today. They have a headache today. They don't want to hear it. They've got enough just to get from here to the door. They don't want to hear it. They don't want to learn anything about Buddhism right now. They just want to get out of the room. The next day, they do want to hear about it. They're up for it. But you have to check. And sometimes you look at somebody and you think, gee, I don't think they're up for it, but I'll check. And they So you don't look like you want to get any feedback of that, right? And they say, no, it's okay. I do have a headache, but I, you know, I'm ready to, I'm ready to hear something. Sometimes they surprise you. But still, it's kind of scary even to ask sometimes because they look so upset or so angry.

[60:02]

You feel like, you know, but sometimes just to get in there and just, it's really a good time to ask. And that's kind speech too. It's enlightening speech. Speech, you see, that's in that way, it gets in there to the place where, you know, you're not separate. You use the speech to get closer to beings. You use the speech to realize, in actual interaction, to realize that you're not separate. And then finally the speech comes from that place of realizing non-separateness. And that's the real, that's the, you know, that's the right speech that's in line with the path. And as long as you feel separate from other beings, then speak in these ways which will help you get closer

[61:10]

And the ways to help you get closer are to speak gently, kindly, truthfully, not harshly, sincerely. These ways bring you closer to people. Let them come closer to you. They're open to you. They trust you. You trust them. Gradually, you get closer and the speech gets closer and closer to the speech, which is not karma. It's just truly right speech. You look like you understand. You're getting good. Any questions? Yes? Yes. Yes, it's a big subject.

[62:18]

Timing is a very big subject. It's actually, it's everything. I personally feel very agitated most of the time. Yes. And arrhythmic rather than being in rhythm. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. So it's very difficult for me to be timely. You know, this is... this thing about time, you know, I said, timing is everything. And I thought, is that true? And I thought, well, not exactly. I would say that in the world of where we're separate, timing is everything. As long as we're separate, timing is everything, because when we're separate, that's the world of time.

[63:25]

And in that world, We need to be in rhythm. We need to find how to be in sync with each other. As long as we're separate, we need to be aware of the timing. We need to get into the dance with each other. But I said that's everything. But that's everything in the world of where we're separate. In the world where we're not separate, there's no timing. In a world where we're separate, just everything comes up together at the same time. There's no timing anymore. But in a world where we're separate, we have to get really good at timing. We have to watch. When is it time for us to talk how? What signals are we getting about what we should say? Oh, I think I should say this, but when should I say it? How do I find out when to say it? When's the right time to try to find out when I should say it?

[64:26]

This is the dance, you know. It's very complicated. It's very fast-changing. But if we can get in there, we become intimate. When we become intimate and act from the intimacy, then there's no timing anymore. It happens spontaneously. There's no timing. But before that, we have to really work on the timing. And that's where our impulse comes in, because we have impulses all the time to do things. That's why we have to become aware of our impulses so that we don't act ahead of when our impulses are in timing with others. And so speaking in this timing way is a way to tune into our timing, our rhythm with each other, and gradually find this place where there's no kind of like you and me doing things, but we're all coming up together. Then beings are free.

[65:33]

But there's a lot of mistakes we're going to make before we get to that point. And so we make a mistake, we say, oops, I was too slow or I was too fast, I blew it. I was too slow, I was too fast, I blew it. Too slow, too fast, too slow, too slow, too fast, too fast, too slow. A lot of mistakes, we have to be able to tolerate those mistakes because that's how we learn. You know, like when you're dancing, I came too soon, I moved too soon, I took, the step was too long, the step was too short. Hundreds, thousands, millions of mistakes make a great dancer. Hundreds, thousands, millions of mistakes that you're aware of make a great speaker. Okay? So next week we can talk about physically doing the same thing physically. how we do it with our body, which is right action. Okay? So this week, why don't you meditate on, see what impulses you have before you move.

[66:41]

So see me? I'm talking now, but I'm not moving. Right? And I'm kind of in a funny position, aren't I? So I'm going to have impulse to move pretty soon, but I'm checking to see what is the impulse. So I'm going to have the impulse to put my hands in the meditation mudra. And I think I'm going to do it. Watch. Here it goes. But I did feel the impulse beforehand. Now you watch. Before you get into the meditation posture, see if you can feel the impulse to get into your meditation posture. And when you feel the impulse, if you think it's good, then act it. If you don't think it's good, wait until it's good. It'll eventually be good, probably. If not, you'll never get there, which is fine.

[67:37]

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