We meet on the street that ask us for money or whatever. I got one long essay and one medium-sized essay, and also I got a list of places in mostly the East Bay that give meals to people. And so I guess wherever you live, you could maybe try to become familiar with what facilities there are where you are. You might have a little slip of paper like this or several slip of paper with you to give to people because maybe people don't know. Some people are from out of town or whatever. This might be useful. If you'd like a copy of this, I could send it to you. And it inspires me to make a larger one for different parts of the Bay Area to give to people, to pass out.

[01:06]

It seems like a good thing. I appreciate your response to that question, to that meditation. This is our last class, and this fall I'm going to do another class at the Yoga Room, which is not on my teaching schedule because I didn't know I'd be doing it until a little while ago. And if any of you have any suggestions about what topic or what focus the class this fall might have, I'd be happy to hear from you. It'll be in November and December, the class. Pardon?

[02:12]

I think it'll be on Thursday night. Thursday night. One of the things that it said in the description of this course on Precepts of Enlightening Relationships was that we would discuss explore how to balance recognizing others and asserting yourself or expressing yourself and listening to others, how to balance those. So it doesn't say so, but I implied by considering that balance and exploring how to balance those two, that balancing those two would be good. And some very intelligent people, some very intelligent people, like Marx and Hegel, thought that basically people weren't interested in balancing self-assertion and recognizing others.

[03:31]

that what most people want to do is the easy thing, which is to take one side in a relationship and either be the one who expresses himself or the one who listens. In other words, one be the master and the other be the slave, one being dominant, the other submissive. This is easier, actually, although it doesn't work very well, as you may have heard, and requires... you know, communism to counterbalance it or something like that, they kind of felt that most people aren't up for it. It takes too much attention and energy to balance, to like really respect people and at the same time not forget yourself. And maybe I'll just start with that.

[04:48]

I was gonna try to do something more than that. But maybe I'll wait before I try something more, what do you call it, ambitious. And just bring up this point for a little while. And then later try to apply it. to some particular precepts. For example, when you're sitting, like I asked you, do you feel when you're sitting, I asked you, do you feel like you're helping others when you're sitting? Do you feel like others are helping you? Another way you could say it is do you feel like you're expressing yourself in a helpful way? And do you feel like you're recognizing that others are expressing themselves? Can you sense that when you're sitting you're expressing yourself?

[05:54]

Are you expressing yourself when you're sitting? Is that an expression? And when you see other people sitting, do you recognize them and appreciate that? And do you express that you recognize and appreciate it? And do they express to you that they recognize and appreciate that you're sitting? Do you sense that? What do you think? Yes? It's easier for you to sit in a group. I've never really understood how that works or what it's about, but I definitely feel that. So you feel other people support you? Yeah. When you sit in a group, you feel like they're helping you. So you recognize that they're there and that they're sitting, and you appreciate it. Do you feel like you're expressing yourself at the same time? I'm not sure what that means.

[06:55]

Do you feel like you're helping them? So you feel like maybe you're helping them when you sit with them and you're sure that they help you. But you don't see that helping them is an expression of yourself? Well, you don't have to. You don't have to see it. But... Okay? But you could make it that way. In other words, you can be in a relationship where you feel like, oh, I really appreciate what you're doing, you're really helping me, and maybe I'm helping you. Okay? But you could change that and say, I feel I'm in a relationship with you, I feel like you're helping me, I appreciate that you're helping me, I feel your support, and maybe I'm helping you, but actually, I want to say that I really do want to help you, and I hope that me sitting with you does help you. I really want to, and I do feel that way, and I want to tell you that is what I want to do.

[08:00]

You can assert that and see if they respond and see if they say, I hear you. I hear you, Chris. And then you say, well, am I helpful? And they might say, yeah, actually. Or they might say, no, actually. You say, well, how could I be helpful? Because I want to be. And so on. I went into the meditation hall at Green Gulch a couple of days ago. It was on Saturday. And there was very few people in the Zendo, actually. But there was one bank of people, you know, one row of people sitting there. And I just saw them sitting there and I really felt appreciative that they were there. And I'm going to have a meeting with them.

[09:04]

On Thursday morning I'm going to tell them that I really appreciate that they were there. Sometimes I go in there, maybe I have to be all by myself, nobody else is there. And sometimes it's almost like that. But then sometimes there's a few people there and I really appreciate that they help me. Now, being an old student, I know that when I go, it helps people. I know they like the senior, the oldest people to be there. I know they do. Because I remember when I was a young student, I really loved my old teacher to be there. So I know when you practice a long time, people really like to see you there. So I know that I help them sit. So I go every day because I know it helps them. But it helps me also to go for myself, just to go. So the fact that it helps them helps me. The fact that I know it helps them and that I go to help them helps me.

[10:10]

Also them being there helps me too, of course. So I see it just starts to, the more you think about it, back and forth. But sometimes you're in a situation where you feel, I feel helped, I hope I help you, but I'm not sure. You can be stronger. Especially if you feel like, I know you help me, it's very clear you're helping me. I'm not so sure I help you. Well, that's kind of like not balanced. You don't have to sort of say, well, I know I'm helping you. That's different. But you can say, you could say that, but you could say, I really want to help you, and I also want to tell you that, and I want you to hear that, and I want you to tell me if you hear it. And I also want to tell you, another form of expression is, I feel you're helping me, and I want to tell you you're helping me. So I'm telling you you're helping me. Do you hear me? Does it make sense to you that you're helping me? And they say, yes.

[11:14]

Well, good, because you are. Am I helping you? Yes. Well, good, because that's what I want. This kind of thing. And this sitting, but also the rest of this event here, I think some of you feel helped by the other people who are coming here Right? Did you come here to help them? Did you take this class to help the other people show up even though you wouldn't even know who they're going to be? That's hard, not knowing who they're going to be. At the end, maybe you say, well, now that I've been helping them for six weeks, now I'm glad I helped them. The first night, I wasn't sure I wanted to help them. It's a funny thing is when you're with a group of people and you feel like they're helping you and over the time you start to feel more that you're helping them and they're helping you and the more you want to, actually.

[12:23]

You're saying that it would apply to the same thing in individual relationships, like a couple recognizing each other and asking... Yeah, I was definitely leading up to that. And I was going to apply it to some of the precepts, to see how you do that with the precepts. But I started with, just generally, that you can express yourself to a group, assert yourself in the presence of a group, and feel like the people in the group are asserting themselves. Do you feel that the people... who make the effort to come here and sit with you, do you feel that they're asserting themselves? And again, I think that it might be the case that some of the people who come here actually are asserting themselves. It's not by accident that you're here, but you may not realize that you did assert yourself, that it was quite an assertion, quite an expression of yourself that you decided to come and be in this room night after night.

[13:32]

I was sitting in my car before class, you know, and I just looked up that street over there, that side street, and I was just looking at the hills and the tree, and I looked at one of the houses, you know, and it's kind of hot. I looked up, there's a house in the corner, and up in the top floor of the house is kind of like in one of the peaks of the roof, there's a glass window, so like the attic is an apartment. I couldn't see, you know, anybody up there, but I just thought, you know, maybe somebody's sitting up in that apartment. Maybe they're hot. Maybe they're so hot they left their apartment and went to a bar to have a beer. But I wonder, you know, all these people in all those houses around all over Berkeley, are they in their room feeling like they're helping people and feeling like people are helping them? And I thought... We have this little group that gets together now.

[14:37]

These people come from all over. They go in this room, and they do that to help people. And they feel like other people are there to do it to help them. And not just each other, but help everybody. We're not just sitting in our rooms. We're being helped, but do we recognize it? We are being helped, but do we recognize it? People are supporting us. It isn't like the enlightened people, you know, start getting people to help them. No, they just wake up and see that people are helping them. And part of the way they wake up to see that people are helping them is that they want to help people. The more you want to help people, the more you see that they're helping you. And sometimes the way they help you is by not coming to the class. That's another kind of expression. Some people didn't show up. They're also expressing themselves. But do they know it?

[15:39]

I don't know. And do you feel helped by the people who didn't come? That's the more advanced step. Yes. It seems like there'd be a lot of ways that people could be helping each other. There's a lot of ways? There's a lot of different ways that people could be helping each other. Yes. Even though there's no verbal or visual communication. Right. Is it important to maybe open that up? Is it important to open it up? Yeah. It's important to open it up, yes. Pardon? What are some of those ways that people… I just did just now in class. We never talked about this before. So many people go to meditation halls because they want to meditate. And like Maria was saying, it's hard for her to meditate in the morning because she has to get up really early to bake.

[16:46]

So she appreciates this evening class, evening session, because it's hard for her to sit in the morning. So she comes here because this is a situation which supports her practice. So she knows that it helps her, right? But she didn't necessarily tell you people that you're helping her. But she knew that. But you didn't know that, did you? But now you do. But also she didn't tell me that she came here to help you. But maybe she did. Did you? Yeah. So now it's out in the open. You know, my secret loves no secret anymore. Okay, you're telling, some of you have now admitted, Chris has admitted that she comes here and feels helped by you people. She's saying thank you to you, kind of, aren't you? So, you come here, you do help each other, you help me.

[17:49]

You do. Now tonight, we're expressing it. You already were expressing it. Now you're expressing it more. So now is an opportunity before another class is almost over to say thank you to each other. Go ahead. Did Joanna say thank you to each other? You embarrassed to say thank you? Come on, Howard, say thank you to Linda. So you can bring it up more, okay? You can say thank you. Like my wife used to say, do you love me? She used to say that. She said that in the late 70s and early 80s. And I said, yes.

[18:57]

And then I said, well, do you have some doubt about that? Do you feel kind of insecure about it? She said, no, I just want to hear you say you do. So when we go out of our way to come and sit together obviously some of us are coming here because we think it's helpful so the other people must be helping us and some of us probably are coming here to help the other people and some of us are aware that the other people are coming here to help us but to say it just brings in another dimension of expression. It's a fuller expression. And also to find out where they're at is a little bit more of, well, I'm saying I feel helped and I want to help you. How about you? I'm recognizing you. Since you're helping me, I'd like to know if you noticed it. Did you know you were helping me? Now, some people you know are beautiful to you, but they don't know they're beautiful to you.

[19:59]

So sometimes you might say to them, did you know that I think you're beautiful? And they might say, no. Well, I do. Well, okay. They don't believe it, so tell them again. You know? And so on. It doesn't hurt to say thank you. It doesn't hurt to let know. But you don't have to do it every time. So in Zen, we don't walk into the meditation hall and say, thanks. We don't do that. But we do come in and bow. And that means thank you. That means I've come to help you. This means I'm coming to help you. This means I'm coming to be helped. But sometimes we say it with our mouth and sometimes we say it with our tears when a friend dies who we've been sitting next to for many years or a friend moves away and so on, you know. So there's many ways There's no limit on them.

[21:01]

As many ways you can do it, the more fully you express yourself and also leave, but don't just go, you know, overwhelm people with your gratitude and your expressions. Say thank you, but then stop a second and give them a chance so you can see what's their response. Thank you, Jimmy, but... You're welcome. Yeah. You're welcome. It's this dynamic of this interaction in your speech, in your thought, in your posture, with your body, speech, and mind, express what you have to express. So this third precept of embracing and sustaining all beings, you practice that. You do that, but you don't just do it yourself. You do it yourself, and also you recognize that other people are doing it. That's part of doing it, is to notice that other people are practicing it too, because they are. And if you're doing it all by yourself, that's not as full a relationship, as not a fully enlightening relationship for you to be going around helping people and for them not to be helping you.

[22:16]

or for you to be helping them and them to be helping you, but you say that you notice it, and you don't, and they don't. You don't hear them. So you need them to tell you that they know they're helping you, and you need for them to tell you whether they know that you're helping them. And sometimes they can't tell you that they're helping you because they don't know, so you have to tell them, and then say, did you hear me? So this precept of embracing and sustaining all beings... is done in the context of this meeting, this balancing of neither side, you know, both sides holding up their side and both sides noticing that the other one is or isn't holding up her side. And again, there's many ways to check that out. And that's the precept of embracing and sustaining all beings, but this thing applies to the other precepts too, like when you embrace and sustain right conduct, in other words, which includes embracing and sustaining the forms of the practice, the yogic forms.

[23:33]

You're doing the yogic forms. So in this case, the example of how you're helping each other is that you're practicing the first pure precept, is that you're practicing these forms. these forms of conduct. And practicing these forms of conduct helps people. And then practicing these forms of conduct helps you. So those first two precepts are realized together in this case of this class. Because you're not just helping each other by saying nice things or giving each other gifts and support. You're helping each other by each of you doing a practice. The middle practice of embracing and sustaining all good, that's more like giving people donations and giving them your blood, giving them a comfortable place to stay, giving them your attention. Those are practices too, but they aren't exactly like you doing a practice and disciplining yourself by a traditional means.

[24:36]

Just ordinary acts of kindness. But again, It's easier for some people to just receive gifts or to give gifts than to give gifts while recognizing who you're giving it to and realize what they're giving back to you. That's more dynamic. Some people feel comfortable giving but they don't feel comfortable receiving or vice versa. If they receive, they feel maybe some obligation or indebtedness which they feel uncomfortable about. Will they be able to reciprocate? So they want to be in an assertive position most of the time because then they feel like, well, I don't have to worry about indebtedness because I'm giving a lot. But what if the other person is giving a lot too? Then it's more dynamic, the balance is more intense.

[25:39]

So all three of these precepts, first one having to do with your conduct, your discipline, the forms of your practice, your posture, your mindfulness practices, the things you do in terms of disciplining yourself. the good things you do for yourself and for others, and the ways you embrace and sustain and relate to people. In all three of these areas, for them really to work and really stay alive, you need to work towards this balance. And I said before, you know, it's easy to split off and have one be the expressor and one be the recognizer. One be the asserter and one be the receiver. That's easy for people to play one side or the other. And it's not very intense, but those don't work for very long. They work for a while, and while they're working, they can do some, you know, things can be accomplished, and some of the things are not that bad that are accomplished.

[26:50]

You can build a house that way. You can raise a family that way. But after a while, one of the parties, at least, loses interest in the other one. And the one that usually loses interest is the one who is asserting himself. Because the one who is just receiving and recognizing becomes a non-entity. And it's not fun to assert yourself to nobody. What's fun to assert yourself to, it's also scary, is to assert yourself to somebody who is somebody, who you really think, oh, wow, that's really somebody. Like, I care about you, and now that I care about you, but you are like somebody. I mean, I'm not talking to a blank wall. I'm kind of afraid to tell you because you're really somebody, and I kind of am concerned with how you feel about that.

[27:52]

But if I keep expressing myself and you never respond, after a while, it's not much interest. So the person then tends to go off and try to find somebody else. That's somebody still. And if that person plays the same role, they'll cash that person in, recycle that person too. Now, the person that's being receptive, they sometimes stay interested because they've got somebody there, because they're recognizing the person. So they're still interested in the person because they're kind of like saying, yeah, you're the person. You're doing the thing. So yeah, you are interesting. And not only that, but I'm making it possible for you to be somebody. But the other person is making it possible for me to be nobody. So they're going to leave pretty soon and I'm going to be nobody. And I don't know if I'm going to be able to get the hang of it again. So it's not a very good deal. The expressor, the asserter, goes from person to person looking for somebody to meet. The one who is recognizing, who takes that role, you know, loses herself or loses himself, betrays himself, denies himself.

[29:09]

So, yes? I can agree. You do? I think that the receiver loses interest because they're not being recognized. Well, good if they do. Good if they do. But if they are receiving, that means they're recognizing. Okay? So in the process of losing interest, you're not really losing interest completely because you're still recognizing. So as you start to lose interest, Because you're not being recognized, but you're still recognizing, you might let the other person know that you're losing interest. But since you're just a receiver, you don't tell them, so the thing collapses. So I think the receiver can lose interest too, actually. It's not that interesting for them, but it could be because there's still somebody there, because at least the other person is saying something. They're not recognizing that, so that's no good.

[30:18]

It gets boring not being recognized for you. And that's good that it does because you shouldn't keep doing a relationship like that, really. But some people do think it's interesting because they keep feeding this person who becomes the great Gildersleeve. Yeah, you're the only person old enough. Do you remember the great Gildersleeve? Anyway, some people stay interested because of the empire that's created, but it's good that you don't. You shouldn't go along with this very long. It is really a waste of time. Really, don't go along with it. I'm not saying be impatient, but as soon as possible, blow the whistle. Danita? Thank you. Danita.

[31:27]

I sound apprehensive? Apprehensive, huh? Danita. It seems to me, from what you're saying, that the only way to be recognized is that you have to assert yourself. Yes. There's no way around it. There's no way around it, because if somebody recognizes you before you assert yourself, they don't recognize you. They recognize their fantasy of you. Now, even when you assert yourself, they recognize their fantasy of what you just asserted, but you can work on it. And that's what a lot of people do, is they present, they do assert themselves, but what they present is something which is not them, but which is easy for people to recognize because it's so darling or whatever.

[32:34]

But this thing over here gets recognized, which is really safe for you, because if anybody doesn't like it, it's not going to hurt you, it's not you. But if you move this thing over here and it's you, then if they don't like it, it hurts you. Being recognized is not always pleasant. I knew this woman one time. I still know her, actually. And she, her father was, I don't know what his problem was. I think he was an alcoholic, etc. And she looked like her father. Her father was dark and she was dark. and her mother was blonde and all the other brothers and sisters were blonde. So after the father died or ran away or whatever, the mother always hated the daughter because the daughter reminded her of her abusive husband. Hated, I don't know, maybe too strong, but never loved her and never let her get near her. And this girl was, I think, maybe the oldest daughter or the most dedicated daughter to the mother, too, but the mother always kept her away.

[33:45]

Then one time, as the mother was dying, and, you know, losing her ability to recognize which kid was which kid, she could get close to her mother and her mother could, you know, love her not knowing who she was. Which was, you know, she still took it, you know. Still, at least she got to be close to her mother. But it would have been a little nicer if her mother actually knew who she was and loved her. That would be like something to work up to, right? But that's what it's about. It's like expressing yourself, putting yourself out there, the actual you, which won't necessarily be received. But if you put out a fake you and that gets received, it doesn't work. The other person keeps playing along with it, but you know they're not recognizing you. Plus, you're not expressing yourself. So you're really not anybody. So it's not easy. Now, some people it's easier for, but even those people that are sort of into expression, they often are also faking it.

[34:53]

They're putting out a false self too. And part of a good recognizer is to say, I had the feeling like that wasn't really you. Was that actually you? In other words, part of a good recognizer is to be an expressor. And part of what you express is that you feel like you're getting an inauthentic response, which is really scary to say. Can you imagine how difficult that is, to say that in a loving way? Did you follow that? That make sense? Did it, Lisa? Huh? In other words, part of being a good listener, in order to be a good listener, you really have to be a good expressor, because if you're a good listener... And you listen to the person, but they give you a phony version of themselves. If you're really interested in them and really recognize in them, you can kind of recognize that that wasn't them. So in order to like get in, because you do recognize them and appreciate them so much, you want to get the actual person.

[36:00]

So then you got to sometimes tell them, could you please kind of come back in line with yourself, please, and give me who you really are. Could you give an example both ways? Which is two ways? Could you give an example both ways? If you wouldn't recognize him, if I said something to you, that's not who you are. Well, I wouldn't quite say that's not who you are, but I would just say, you know, maybe it doesn't make sense to me what you just said. Or I might say, do you really mean that? Sometimes you feel like people aren't really saying what they mean. You kind of feel like that. You might be wrong, but you sometimes feel like that. But in the case where you feel like they are being themselves, they're there too. You recognize that they're there too. It doesn't hurt to say, you know, I really appreciate it.

[37:01]

I really feel... I really feel... Somehow I really feel that you're really being honest with me. I really appreciate that. I really appreciate that you really brought me and showed me your heart. I mean, really... Well, it's just great to be with you when you're really showing me what you really got going. And sometimes what people bring is suffering and pain. Not pleasant to see, but you really feel good that they showed you that they really showed you what it was, that you're like dealing with their actual life. It's very lively. I used to get much less sleep than I do now. So sometimes, quite often, people would come and see me and I would fall asleep while they were talking to me. And then I started getting more sleep, but I still kept falling asleep when some people were talking to me.

[38:03]

And I realized that I fell asleep when people were not really there, when they were just sort of like going, giving me this, not them, that I would get very sleepy and go to sleep. Now, sometimes I get sleepy when it's not that way, but... So I stopped going to sleep and I started telling people quite soon, something's happening over here, you know. I'm getting, this is not entertaining anymore, you know. You're not, you're not, you're not thrilling me. Can you imagine why I'm not interested in what you're saying? I can't say that. Watch me. You have to be you have to be kind of intimate to say that so you can be more polite you say excuse me I really feel sorry to say this, but I have this funny feeling coming over me which I might call Could I tell you how I feel you might say yeah, I said well I really don't mean to hurt your feelings, but I'm feeling really bored Can you can you imagine why I might feel bored?

[39:15]

Now that I'm telling you that I'm feeling bored. I don't feel bored anymore Because now, before that, you know, you were feeling bored, but you didn't dare say you were feeling bored, so you were like not expressing yourself. You were listening to them, but it was boring. But you didn't want to express yourself because you're afraid to hurt their feelings. But if you don't, you just get more bored, and you get more and more trapped in your lack of interest in this person who's not really... showing himself to you. I really think that when somebody really shows me who they are, I don't get bored. I don't think so. I've talked to many, many people for many, many hours, and I don't think when anybody was really showing me something about themselves, I don't think I got bored. Now, if somebody doesn't want to show me themselves, I don't get bored. Like when I'm walking down the street, you know, here in Berkeley or San Francisco, it isn't like I keep falling asleep by every person that walks by who's not showing themselves to me.

[40:20]

I go, huh. That doesn't happen to me. But when I'm sitting in my room, all comfortable and everything, and somebody's coming to see me, and the name of the game is show themselves, and then they don't, then I get bored. Because they're not doing the game. The game is I want to show you what's going on. I want to talk to you about my life. The people on the street don't say that, so it's not boring. They're just like bopping down the street. But if they walk up to me on the street and they say, I want to tell you something about myself, and then they don't, then I go to sleep. Do you see? Mary Beth? I can imagine a situation, and I've been in them, and I'm not in a sort of focused environment. that you're describing to me, where the name of the game, as you say, is to show yourself. And I've been in conversations, and I've heard actually psychotherapists say that in the event that someone was hearing something that they were very uncomfortable with, they're just not ready to hear the other person's story.

[41:20]

I'm not suggesting this about your story, but in my own experience, a feeling of boredom or an effect of boredom can come up. Right. [...] But I said that wasn't always the case, right? If they come in and talk to me about me, if they come in and start telling me about me, I might get bored with that. Because there's so much to the point, right? So if you start getting on my case and start pressing my buttons, I might go to sleep to escape, right? But when you're telling me about yourself, I don't get bored because you're telling me something that I have difficulty hearing. But I do get bored if you're telling me not about yourself. Because among all, you know, the one thing I do not want to hear from somebody is about who they aren't.

[42:25]

I'm like not interested in that. That's like the worst waste of my time is for you to tell me who you aren't. I mean, all the things you can tell me, like that's the most uninteresting thing for me to hear from you. It's called a lie. But not admitted. But if the person's lying and then they switch over and say, I was a lie, then everything comes back. Did you understand what I said there? Was that clear? It's kind of a strange way of talking, but I... It's kind of ironic that that's really like... And people do that, right? They actually say something, they actually present somebody who's not them. They go out of their way to show something that's not them. And that's like, really like... It shouldn't be tolerated. You shouldn't get impatient... and get angry at them, but you shouldn't put up with it.

[43:28]

But you've got to develop a skill about how you don't put up with it. You don't want to not put up with it in a way that's going to hurt them. But actually, you can get that skill because if the skill comes from the fact that you actually want them to show you who they are, Then you've got to kind of go back and just discuss what the meeting's about. Did you actually want, like sometimes I say, just a second, did you want to do a monologue? I sometimes say to people. And they almost always say, no. And if they say, yes, I do, then I say, well, could you do it someplace else? And they sometimes say, fine. I say, you can just stay in the room. I'm going to leave now. You stay and just keep talking. But that's very rare. Most of the time they say, no, I didn't want to do a monologue. We just sort of got into that, didn't we? And I have to sometimes tell people, you know, you can go like this to me, too.

[44:37]

If you ever feel like it's a monologue in this direction, just go like this or start crying. Just go like this. I'll stop. I do not want to continue. So the precept that I wanted to talk about, which relates to this, is the precept of not misusing sexuality. So it relates. And I said last week, a week before, you know, somebody said, well, is that using sexual energy? And, you know, basically... In a sense, everything we do, we have other kinds of energy. We have many kinds of energy, but everything we do, there's sexual energy in it, I think. There's also, what do you call it, other kinds of energy, like electronic and electrical energy, thermal energy. But there's sexual energy in everything we do. But there isn't a precept about not misusing thermal energy.

[45:40]

Because actually we do use thermal energy to talk, to move our arms and legs. But sexual energy is there too. And it's a particularly complex one. So looking at sexual energy and how our sexuality or sexual energy, looking at that, First of all, look at it in terms of the three pure precepts. Okay? Then look at it in terms of the other nine great precepts or major precepts. Okay? That's one way to look at what it is. And then the other thing is look at it in terms of asserting yourself and recognizing the other. Look at it that way too. Look at it in terms of is the other person expressing himself? And are you recognizing it? And are you expressing yourself and being recognized?

[46:51]

Do you feel like you're expressing your sexual energy? Do you? If you do, do you recognize it? And when you do, do they recognize it? So not misusing sexuality, or to put it the other way, using sexuality, I put it another way, not even using it, because even using it in a way is kind of off. But expressing your sexuality in an appropriate way, not misusing it, but letting it flow in a helpful way, then it will embrace and sustain all beings. it will embrace and sustain goodness, and it will embrace and sustain right conduct. But can you see yourself expressing it?

[47:55]

Or does it somehow happen without you noticing that you're expressing it? And do you feel that some other people are expressing goodness And do you recognize it? And when you're expressing it, when you notice you're expressing it, do you feel recognized? So I would say an enlightening relationship is one where sexuality is happening in this balanced way. And if it's not happening in this balanced way, then I would say it's not an enlightening relationship, or it's not fully enlightening. So if you look at the Buddhist precepts, The usual understanding of this precept of not misusing sexuality is lay people, people who aren't, you know, celibate monks, lay people should be faithful. That's usually what it means. And monks just don't have sexual relationships.

[48:59]

Well, that's fine. But that's not enough to get to an enlightening relationship because monks have sexual energy And lay people, even if they're faithful to their spouse, they have sexual energy, but they still have to use it. They still have to have it function in this enlightening way. Otherwise, it's not enlightening. It's just like, what do you call it, this essential resource of our life that's there all day long, all night long, it's there. And in order for us to have an enlightening relationship, this sexuality needs to be functioning in an enlightening way. And an enlightening way means that it's being expressed fully. But it can't be just expressed fully on one side because you need to be met. So somebody else has to do it too. You need to be in a relationship. And it doesn't mean that you need to be in so-called, you know, intimate relationships.

[50:03]

genital sexual relationship with somebody for this to happen but your sexuality needs to be expressed recognized and the other person needs to express and you need to recognize it it has to be like that for it to be enlightening and there's two people back there that had their hands raised are you a couple so as in jane and and carol Well, can you give an example? Have you ever noticed yourself expressing sexuality? Okay, then you got an example. Do you want me to give another one? What's your example? Well, just one. Just do one. Just one. You wanted one, right? Yes.

[51:07]

That's right. You can do that. And if your sexuality is going to be part of an enlightening relationship, well then, let's have it be functioning in everything. In other words, everything you do, you're going to realize that precept. So when you give someone something, when you give someone something, Okay? That is not misusing your sexuality. To be generous is not misusing your sexuality. To steal, to take what's not given, is misusing your sexuality. Your sexuality is there. Okay? So if you take something, you're misusing your sexuality. But if you give or receive what's really given, and when you receive something, you check to see, was this really given? That's like your sexual energy being used in an appropriate way. When you feel warmth towards somebody, that's sexual energy. When you feel anger, that's sexual energy.

[52:09]

Sexual energy is there. Okay? So how do you take care of that anger? How do you express it? At the same time, recognizing the other person. When you recognize somebody, it means you appreciate them. I mean, somebody's over there. That's actually... Okay? You recognize them. You appreciate them. Recognizing me isn't just like, I see you there and I hate you. It's I see you there and you're actually somebody. You're actually a living being. I appreciate you. I acknowledge you. I affirm you. You're really something. And I have anger here. That's not hurting you. And that's the way to use that energy. It also takes care of another precept. When you practice one, you practice the others. Okay, so go ahead. More question?

[53:10]

Make it more specific if you want to. That's fine. You want to make it specific? I gave it just to give a specific one, but you said specific, but limited. Limited specific. Like what? Like kissing somebody? Well, we're just going to say you have sexual attraction towards somebody. You have sexual attraction. What does that mean? You want to touch them. You want to touch somebody? Yeah. Well, what's the difference between wanting to touch, let's say, let's say what? What's the difference between wanting to touch a... People are very liberal around here. I don't know what. Touch a dog? LAUGHTER And touch a very attractive, in your case, man, I guess. You like men, right? Yeah. So what's the difference between wanting to touch a dog and wanting to touch a man? What's the difference? Yeah.

[54:17]

Well, but there's sexual energy in both cases, right? But what's the difference in the way the sexual energy is going? What's the difference? Well, the extent to which you might... The way, the extent to which you might want to touch each one would be different. The response I'd want back would be different. Ah, the response you want back might be different. Ah, yes. Mm-hmm. But the actual feeling of wanting to touch might be... Like, people touch dogs all over. It's quite, you know... Like my little dog, you know, who's not here tonight, she likes to be, you know, stroked on her belly. She goes... And she just loves to be stroked across those little nipples, you know. She never had any, like, pups, so, you know, that area is like... She likes that area to be touched, and I like to touch that area because she likes it so much. It doesn't feel that bad on my hands either, but she really likes it, so I like to do that for her. She recognizes that I'm doing that. I want to do that for her.

[55:21]

It's a nice thing. My sexual energy is coming into play that way. Now, if you touch somebody else and you want a different kind of response, okay, then is the difference in the sexuality kind of because you want a different response? Is that part of what it is? Well, let's say it's a friendship that is a non-sexual relationship. non-genital sexual relationships. Which is like almost, yeah, right. And I just want to point out that, just one little point, is that almost all relationships are almost all the time non-genital sexual relationships. The hottest couple in history, you know, is still most of the time non-genital sexual relationship. They have a sexual relationship 24 hours a day, but most of the time it's just, it's, you know, it's other things, right?

[56:26]

Right? So, yes? So you wanted to have a relationship that you think is, like, probably never going to be genital. Okay? But there is still that kind of attraction. So in that situation... Well, but wait a second. Wait a second. Wait just a second. You said it's never going to be, but there's still that kind of attraction. So it is already sort of, isn't it? You mean it's just never going to... It's never going to manifest in a certain form, but you already feel that genital part is already turned on. Yes. Okay. Sexual energy doesn't always turn that stuff on, but sometimes it does. So it already is happening, really. Isn't it really? I mean, it sort of is. I mean, things are happening. If you could test a person, you'd find certain things are happening, right? Certain juices and hormones would be flowing.

[57:30]

Certain electrical impulses would be happening. You know, certain things could be happening between you and this other person, which don't happen between people sometimes when they do have so-called manifest genital relationships. Is that clear? Did everybody follow that? No? Don't be embarrassed to say if you didn't. Everybody did, okay. So, some people who never, so to call, consummate it, they have it going stronger than some people who, like, have babies together. And they can barely, you know, it barely happens. But because of certain things, it does happen. But other people, without ever sort of consummating it, it is happening. So in your case of where it's not going to happen, in some cases it is happening. So it is happening. Oh, okay. And so are you expressing your sexual energy in that case? Yeah.

[58:30]

Okay. When your body's expressing your sexual energy, you don't do this on purpose, right? You don't say, okay, now I'm going to turn my hormones on. Your body's just doing that. It isn't an on-purpose thing. It's a chemical thing. But you can still say, this is happening. I am expressing myself. My body's expressing sexuality in this way right now. And is it appropriate? Is it appropriate? Well, it seems like it probably should be because it's happening. Now, now what? Okay, now, this is your example, right? And this happens to people. Yes. That's a good question, because you might not say to the person, what's going on with you? Right? Because, why not? Because, why not? It might be misusing sexuality.

[59:35]

Why would you tell them? That's one of the questions. What would your reason for telling them be? Would it be because you thought it would be helpful? So sometimes when we feel these things, we don't mention it because we think it would not be helpful. For example, it could happen that you'd feel this towards a child. It's possible. Or someone, you know, virtually a child. And if you told them, it could harm them. So, if you care about the child, if you recognize the child, you don't tell them. But do you feel like you're expressing it? You are expressing it. Do you feel like they notice it? Do they recognize it? It's hard to find out in this case because you're not going to talk to them about it. But do you feel like they recognize it? Maybe hard to tell.

[60:37]

But if you can tell that they do, I would say you're in an enlightening relationship. I just want to stop there because I just said something kind of pretty far out. In other words, that you notice... you feel recognized non-verbally for some things, and that subtle recognition is very important. But you can't talk about it because it would be harmful to talk about it. In some cases, you can talk about it like the case of sitting together and appreciating the support. You can talk about it. It's not going to hurt. But in some cases, you can't talk about it, but if you can tune in to the awareness that you're expressing yourself, Not voluntarily even, but still you're expressing yourself involuntarily. But you can be mindful of an involuntary expression and you can be mindful of that you're being recognized and never talk about it.

[61:41]

But that is an enlightening relationship because in that case you are very aware of what's going on because it is going on. It's happening. And part of enlightenment is to tune into the subtleties of what's going on with our sexuality. Other animals of our species notice what's going on with us. They may not be aware of it. So in that sense, the relationship's not fully enlightening if they aren't aware of their side. So what you need to do is work for them to become more aware of what's going on too without necessarily talking in ways that are inappropriate and which would actually distract you from what's actually going on. Sometimes what's going on is very subtle, and if you start talking about it, it becomes grosser and easier to notice. Is that clear? You're noticing something. You're expressing yourself sexually in some very, what you call genital way, which is not appropriate to talk about.

[62:44]

You're aware of this, and you see it as an expression, and you're mindful of it, and you feel it. And you can even tell that they recognize it, and you can even tell that they don't know they recognize it. And you can't talk about it, because if you talk about it, then the talking about it would make it grosser, which wouldn't be appropriate. And the talking about it would distract you from the awareness of its subtle present form. And that's part of the reason why people do talk about it, is because it's so... I don't know, it's so wonderful to be tuned into that subtlety. They can barely stand it. Because they're anxious to be aware of this subtle working. There's many reasons why we have trouble with that. You start feeling very close to the person, but can't do anything about it. A lot of times when we feel very close, we start feeling anxious because of our delusion that we're separate from them. And yet... We're not separate from them. We're having these things happening between us.

[63:46]

We're not separate, and we're feeling that we're not separate. It's being demonstrated, and we start to feel the anxiety of our ideas confronted by reality. And then in that situation, we want to do something about it to distract ourselves from the anxiety. And touching them or talking about it often cuts the anxiety, but it really just distracts you from it. And then you start doing things which are actually what they're doing from the point of view of waking up because they're distracting you from this enlightening process which involves anxiety. It's intense. Carol? I really wanted to ask about when you're not expressing. You're always expressing. So when you don't notice it? No.

[64:53]

Well, when I lie to you, like if I'm angry and I say I'm not angry, then I'm expressing myself in the form of a lie. In other words, I'm telling you that what's going on is not what's going on. I tell you, different from what I'm experiencing, I tell you what's going on, okay? So I'm expressing myself in the form of a lie, which you might not find that entertaining. Excuse me. You might not like it if you actually had a sense of what was going on with me. Lying as other examples of what? I'm saying your sexual energy is involved in all expression. Okay? So if you lie, [...] you're misusing your sexuality. Okay? Your sexual energy is... Pardon?

[66:01]

Oh, you want other examples of misusing. Okay, here goes. Ready? Ready? Ready? Stealing. Now, stealing can be in the form of stealing a kiss, stealing a feel, stealing sexual intercourse, called rape. Stealing can be in the form of having sex with somebody that's not appropriate, like a child. That's taking what's not given, in many cases. Maybe some case, some place, a child and an adult getting together is okay, but usually... It's not appropriate because the children are not yet ready for it, because they don't know what's going on. They don't understand what's happening. Therefore, it harms them. So, if you have sex with a child, that's not really given to you, even though they may go along with it or even initiate it, it seems. Like my little girl used to climb all over me when she was about eight, and I told her, you can't do this anymore. And she knew she wasn't supposed to be doing it.

[67:05]

She just didn't show up to her friends, actually. She knew. So I said, no, you can't do this anymore. You can't crawl all over me now. You're too big to do that. When they're four, maybe it's okay. When they're eight, when they're nine, when they're ten, you say no. And when you say no, that's how you're a sexual being. You're a male. You're a father. You're a sexual being. And your sexuality says, this is not appropriate for me to be having this girl crawling on me. you know your sexuality is not supposed to be operating like that. To let that happen is stealing. It's also lying. It's also, in a sense, killing. What are you killing? You're killing your daughter. You're killing her sex life. You're confusing her. You're hurting her potential for a healthy relationship, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

[68:07]

What else are you doing? Are you being possessive? Are you being greedy? I think so. Are you being angry? That may be harder to see. It's hard to see that maybe. But check it out. Usually they're all happening. Are you being... Are you slandering somebody? Yes, you are. You're slandering this person whom you're involved with in such a way that it's not helping them. To treat people in a way that's harmful to them is to kind of slander. Slander is harmful. We mean a harmful way of talking about somebody, a way that defames them, that degrades them. And to have sex relationship with someone in this inappropriate way degrades the person, degrades you too. So you're slandering yourself and slandering the other. Also, you're kind of like praising yourself. Well, I can do this. It doesn't matter. Because, you know, they're not that important.

[69:10]

It's intoxicating. You're intoxicating yourself, probably. You're distracting yourself from what's really going on. And all those precepts are going. Now look at the other ones. Are you following, are you actually like embracing and sustaining all beings? Are you practicing good and are you practicing right conduct? Put it in a positive way, have sexuality function in this positive way where you're really like, basically what I'm saying to you is that sexuality, when it's operating right between us, We're meeting in this mutual way. Now, most of our relationships do not evolve into certain forms of sexuality. But those ones that do, those are the ones you must be most strict about making sure that the criterion of mutuality and reciprocity and mutual expression and recognition, there it should be particularly important

[70:23]

realized. With other people, if we have not yet got to that point, at least we're not necessarily getting anything for ourselves from it. Did that make sense? That was kind of a big statement. I don't know if you got that. For example, to be involved in the types of acts which are related to reproduction. even if you're doing it with a member of the same sex. But those kinds of acts, which are similar to the kinds of acts that cause reproduction, in other words, where genitals are involved and where there's penetration and these kinds of things, where people are entering each other's bodies in certain ways, these kinds of relationships, this kind of intimacy physically, in those cases, then you really have to make sure that all the other precepts are happening. In cases where you're not that intimate, you may not yet understand how to be intimate.

[71:26]

In other words, not being intimate with somebody means you're not practicing those precepts together. When you practice all the precepts with somebody, you're intimate with them. You may not be having sexual intercourse, but you're intimate. But to get involved in sexual intercourse before you're intimate, that definitely is violating the precept of misusing sexuality. And it definitely is violating the other precepts, too. But before you're intimate with somebody, if you don't, like, use them or let yourself be used, and you're working towards intimacy, but you're not, like, stealing something or possessing something, then you don't, you know, you're doing the best you can to try to learn what these precepts are. And on subtle form, you might be violating these precepts. But you're working on them. And you're working on the precept of the appropriate functioning of sexuality.

[72:30]

Anyway, we've got it. It's part of what makes us alive. And if we don't use it, it's going to just interfere all the time. Because, I mean, if we don't, I say we use it, if we don't become intimate with it, it's going to be constantly distracting us from an enlightening relationship. Yes? Yes? yes and uh most of the time that's as far as it goes i don't think it's appropriate to express yes most of the time that's the way it goes yeah so but if it's recognized in some way when i'm talking this i'd like to express it you know let me explore it more

[73:37]

If I don't do that, I feel I'm not expressing myself fully. Yeah, well, you have the potential. You have the, pardon? Most of the time it's not recognized because I'm just watching it. Most of the time it's not recognized by yourself? I recognize. Okay, so that's good. Because it's happening, so that's good. So what's the problem? But I went with the person more sometimes. How? Well, just by meeting the person or... But aren't you meeting the person? Getting to know them better. What's the problem with that? I just can't stop to talk to everyone. Pardon? What did you say? Did you say you can't... You can't stop and talk to everyone? I don't have enough time.

[74:46]

So, your problem is you're in the supermarket. You see somebody. You have this feeling you recognize it. You want to get to know them better. Okay? Okay? But... you can't stay in the supermarket much longer. Right? You've got to leave. So you don't have time to get to know them better. Is that what you're saying? Is that your problem, Martin? Huh? Is that your problem? Well, this is an example. You meet somebody in the supermarket. Somebody walks by. You have this feeling and you feel like, I want to get to know this person more. That's a perfectly good feeling. Bodhisattvas want to get to know everybody better. Enlightening relationships mean you get to know people better. It's fine to want to get to know people better. No problem. Now, you're telling me you don't have time. That's the problem, Martin. That's the problem, that you say you don't have time.

[75:47]

I have the time. You do have the time. For enlightening relationships, you can't say you don't have the time. That's like saying, I'm not going to practice generosity. What are you talking about? Oh, okay. What's the problem? Well, it's just, you know, the expression of, you know, feeling it and expressing it and talking it, you know. Wait a second now. Let's look at this. You're in the supermarket. You see somebody. You have this feeling that you want to get to know them. What's the problem? Well, the problem is for me to express that. Well, how are you going to express it? By talking. You're going to go up to the person and say, I'd like to get to know you better? Well... That's one of the ways, yeah. Is there some problem in that? Well, it's a problem. Like, I have a fear I might not do it. I might not express that because... Well, why not express it? I just don't think it's appropriate, you know. Well, if it's not appropriate, do you want to do it if it's not appropriate? No.

[76:47]

Well, then what's the problem? Huh? Huh? I see people, I might, you know, I might want to get to know somebody. I see people all the time. I'd like to get to know them. But I don't necessarily go up to each one and say, I'd like to get to know you better. I don't necessarily, but sometimes I do. But the times I don't, there's two, a couple of reasons. One is I don't think it's appropriate. Another one is I'm scared of what they'll do, even if I think it's appropriate. I'm still kind of afraid. Well, they think I'm coming on, blah, blah, blah. But I have to look at myself. Now, am I actually, like, sincerely want to get to know this person? I mean, that's really what it's at. I want to get to know this person. I have the same fear. Yeah, so if you have a fear, then you've got work to do, which is coming up in relationship to this thing called look at your fear. What's the fear about? That's working on the relationship when you have a relationship with somebody part of it is You have feelings and we have things to say and you're afraid of what's going to happen to you That's what that's what this is part of bug part of us sexual intimacy is to look at Martin and see what he's afraid of That's part of what and then maybe you tell the person In a supermarket, maybe go up to him and tell say I'm I'm afraid of what you're gonna do And then they say oh

[78:08]

Well, I hope you feel better, you know. And then you walk away and you say, what a lovely person, you know. I'd really like to get to know her better. I think I found the way. Like I was in Whole Foods a week ago. And I was walking down the aisle. Yes. And I saw this woman. Yes. You know. Very attractive. Yes. And I kept on walking and she kind of walked into the, and she was hooking in the bins. Yeah, right. Right. And she bent down and I was in the other seat. I bent down at the same time. Yeah. Butts touched. Yeah. Yeah. And she said, oh. And you said, oh. Yeah. Yeah. That's how we met. Okay. Well, that sometimes works like that. And she's okay? Is she all right? But the question is, you know, the question is, did that go with all the precepts? And maybe it did. But not everybody wants to meet that way, Martin.

[79:16]

And you know that. It really is okay to want to get to know people. It really is okay. But if you want to get to know them, then that's the thing. You want to get to know them. You don't want to, like, harm them because you are interested in this person. So you might see many, many thousands of people that you want to get to know, and you have to wait maybe to a little later till the next time you meet. Eventually, this is part of Buddhism, which is hard for people to get, is that we're going to be together for a long time. We're going to change, but eventually we're all going to get to know each other better, and that's part of the deal. And to want to feel that you want to get to know people is partly fueled by sexual energy, but it's also very closely related to enlightenment. Wanting to know people better and be close to people is very close to compassion. But compassion is that you also don't want to hurt them at all, and you want them to be happy and become enlightened.

[80:22]

And it's possible to want that for somebody and also want to get to know them or to want to get to know them so that you can help them with that. In fact, they go together. But you have to keep awake to whether you're slipping into any kind of selfishness. So sexual relationships... in order to be enlightening, are not selfish. You're in the relationship as an act of devotion to the other person. So you want to get to know people, but in a way that's going to help them on their schedule, when they want to be beneficial to them. So I was saying, now, I'd like to get to know this person. Now, how could I help them? And how could me getting to know them help them? And maybe the way to get today, the way that would be, would be To let them, you know, go shopping. Go ahead, go shopping. That's the way you do it. That's the way you help them that day. And keep an eye out to make sure that they, you know, don't fall down or nobody rams them with their shopping cart, you know, stuff like that. Just take care of the person, okay?

[81:26]

Isn't it simple and isn't it difficult? It's very simple. Just always, you always think embrace and sustain this person who you want to get to know. Wanting to get to know somebody helps you embrace and sustain them. Yeah. On the other side of trying to respond respectfully and compassionately for someone who you have some kind of relationship with, friendship with, who's misusing their sexual energy around you. How do you respond compassionately to them? Well, what do you think I'm going to say? No, no, I'm not going to tell you to stop doing that. Because you want to tell me, you want to know how to... So, you first of all think, how can I respond compassionately? In other words, compassionately means how do I help the person?

[82:32]

How do I help this person? That's the main thing. Yeah. Well, that's one way that might be helpful, but another way to point it out would be to say, I feel uncomfortable. That might help them. That might be quite helpful to them. You probably feel uncomfortable when they're doing that, right? So for you to tell them that is not telling them what they're doing, which, you know, that's just your opinion. But if you're uncomfortable, that's a good thing to give that person. That will help them. I think, usually. And then you can also ask them if they'd like to know about what it is about it that's making you uncomfortable. And your sexuality is involved there, too, because your sexuality is part of what helps you see what's... Because this is an important thing for you. It affects you, you know?

[83:33]

What other people do in that realm affects you strongly. So your sexuality is functioning in this way to help this person by telling them they're making you feel uncomfortable. What they're doing, you don't exactly know. You just know how it affects you. And that you can tell them. Now, it does help to check beforehand to sort of like lay the ground about whether they're going to recognize you. You have something to express. Now, you're recognizing them. and you have something to express about what you're recognizing, you're also recognizing something you feel. But you might also, in a case like this, which is a very intense piece of information, you might check with them beforehand whether they're up for hearing from you something that you feel about in relationship to them. And if they say yes, say, well, I feel uncomfortable about this thing. When you do that, I feel uncomfortable. That is compassionate.

[84:34]

That helps people wake up. Does that make sense? Very helpful. Very helpful. But it also helps to, like, get the person ready for it because it's a pretty strong message and also to get their attention. Okay? Well, it's time to stop and Thank you very much for your... What do I call it? Your life. Thank you for your life. Thank you for being alive. And I would like to get to know you better in whatever is the appropriate way. And we do have time to work this out over the years and years and years. Thank you very much. And let me know if you'd like this information.

[85:38]

And let me know if you have ideas for the next yoga room class this fall. And if you want to meet my dog, come to Green Gulch.

[85:50]

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