You are currently logged-out. You can log-in or create an account to see more talks, save favorites, and more. more info

Zazen: Embracing Mindfulness Without Clinging

(AI Title)
00:00
00:00
Audio loading...
Serial: 
RA-00741
AI Summary: 

The talk explores the nature of Zazen, emphasizing that it transcends mere meditation to embody complete mindfulness and freedom. By being "upright," practitioners go beyond concentration, embodying a state free from attachment to meditation's bliss or difficulties. Zazen is discussed as the Samadhi Paramita, the practice where meditation is perfected by being given up, thereby embracing all experiences without clinging. The practice is framed through the teachings of Dogen Zenji, emphasizing the non-attachment to states and continual release of attainments. The talk also addresses the concept of mindfulness as an intrinsic quality rather than an active effort, and highlights the importance of intimacy with all experiences, including negative ones, to achieve true liberation.

Referenced Texts and Concepts:

  • Dogen Zenji's Teachings: Emphasized throughout the talk as a foundational perspective on Zazen, distinguishing it from conventional meditation practices.

  • Samadhi Paramita: Described as the perfection of meditation, achieved when practitioners let go of meditation rather than pursue concentration.

  • Four Foundations of Mindfulness: Explained as integral to Zazen, embodying listening to one's body, emotions, consciousness, and the teaching of Dharma.

  • Avalokiteshvara (Guanyin/Kanji Zaibosatsu): The Bodhisattva of Infinite Compassion, related to mindfulness practices and attentiveness to oneself and others.

  • Heart Sutra and Emmei-Juku-Kanon-Gyo: Sutras associated with the dual aspects of compassion, listening to the self and the cries of all beings.

  • Ikkyu's Story: Referenced to illustrate the concept of attention as the core of Zen practice.

  • Bodhidharma and Huayka's Dialogue: Highlighted the concept of making the mind like a wall, foundational to understanding Zazen as being upright without attachment.

Notable Concepts:

  • Poisoned Concentration/Zen Sickness: An affliction that arises from attachment to meditation states, discouraged in the practice of Zazen.

  • Intimacy with All Experiences: A key aspect of practice described as meeting experiences without separation, promoting liberation and peace.

Additional Works or Figures Mentioned:

  • Keith's Seasonal Metaphor: Used to explain the natural process of letting experiences ripen and drop away.

  • Zen Master Ikkyu: Cited for the simplicity of attention in practice.

  • Bodhidharma's Teaching to Hui Kug: About maintaining awareness without attachment to thoughts or objects.

This summary should help prioritize this lecture for those interested in deepening their understanding of Zazen's unique approach within Zen practice.

AI Suggested Title: "Zazen: Embracing Mindfulness Without Clinging"

Is This AI Summary Helpful?
Your vote will be used to help train our summarizer!
Photos: 
AI Vision Notes: 

Side: A
Speaker: Tenshin Anderson
Location: Tassajara
Possible Title: Lecture
Additional text:

Side: B
Additional text:

@AI-Vision_v003

Transcript: 

So this morning I would like to continue talking with you about just being upright, the practice of Zazen. So when I mentioned that Dogen Zenji said that the Zazen we speak of, or the just being upright that we speak of, is not learning meditation, some people may have some difficulty adjusting to that slogan, because some people have been practicing learning meditation and

[01:10]

maybe thinking that that was the Zazen spoken of in the lineage of Dogen Zenji. And in saying that, no disparagement is meant of practicing concentration. Practicing concentration is a wonderful, wholesome thing which most Zen monks have spent quite a bit of time involved in, I mean most Zen monks who practice for a long time have spent quite a bit of time practicing concentration and practicing learning meditation, but it just should not be confused with the practice of a Buddha. Buddhas can practice concentration, and they sometimes do, but sometimes they don't. Sometimes they just go, you know, play marbles with little kids or jump in the cold water

[02:22]

or have lunch with no intention to develop concentration, however the Buddha is always completely concentrated, and still, even though the Buddha is completely concentrated, the Buddha can enter into concentration practices of various kinds, which have various results. But the Buddha is not always in a state of practicing some kind of concentration, or developing a certain concentrated state of mind, but sometimes they do. But what is it that the Buddhas are always doing, 24 hours a day, what are they always doing? What are they always practicing? Uprightness. Being upright, they're always being upright, and they're always practicing Zazen. Zazen is what they are. Zazen is unsurpassed, perfect awakening, complete emancipation, that's what Zazen is, which

[03:32]

can embrace any state, even the deepest concentration, even the highest concentration, one can still be upright, but one can also be upright in a state of total chaos. That's what's good about complete perfect enlightenment, it applies to all situations. Just being upright, its relationship to meditation is that just being upright in the realm of meditation is called the Samadhi Paramita, it's when meditation goes beyond meditation, that's what Zazen is. Zazen is the perfection of meditation, and the perfection of meditation is when you give

[04:36]

up your meditation, particularly when you give up the bliss and happiness of your meditation. It doesn't exactly count, although it counts a little bit, if you give up some state of meditation in which you're really having a hard time and you don't like it and would like to get rid of it, you can't then exactly count that, although it's okay to let go of that too. That's called letting go of distraction, that's called letting go of having a hard time, which is also good, but that's called the having a hard time Paramita, that's going beyond having a hard time, which is good, that's also Zazen when you go beyond that, but it's not the Samadhi Paramita. The Samadhi Paramita is when you're concentrated and somebody says, hey, can I have your concentration? You say, sure, here. Or even if somebody doesn't ask, you say, here. Zazen is to give up your meditation practice.

[05:41]

Zazen is when you finally, after practicing many years, come to Tassajara and enter into a deep Samadhi and finally you have no problems, you're completely calm and blissful and the bell rings, you get up and toss it out the window, you let go of your great attainment, that's Zazen, that's the perfection of blissful, tranquil concentration. If you hold to what you have developed, that is called poisoned concentration, that is called Zen illness, or Zen sickness. You have to get pretty good at Zen before you can have Zen sickness, you can't have Zen sickness before you get pretty concentrated, but once you're concentrated you're a candidate for Zen sickness, and the more concentrated you get and the more blissful you get and the more elevated and sublime the state, the more you'll be tempted to take up residence

[06:44]

in that state, and even perhaps fortify it against any attacks, and not share it with distracted people, not go to the coffee-tea area with your great state of concentration because it might get lost. No, Zazen is wherever you are, you let go of it, and as soon as you let go of it, it comes right back into your hand, a thousand times greater, and then you let go of that, constantly going beyond your attainments, dropping them, but enjoying them when they're happening, enjoy them, enjoy them, don't kind of like say, okay, I got to get this up so I'm not going to really get into it because it'll be harder, oops, here comes some bliss, yucko, you know, if I let this happen to me, I'll get it all, no, no, let

[07:51]

it happen! Like Keith says, you know, for this time, this warm California autumn time, you know, the sun's still nice and warm, early autumn, and still doing its thing, you know, still bringing things to ripeness, it's still making things get sweet, the season of mist and mellow fruitfulness, close bosom friend of the maturing sun, conspiring with him how to load and bless with fruit, the vines that round the thatched eaves run,

[08:54]

to bend with apples the mossed cottage trees, to fill all fruit with ripeness to the core, to swell the gourd, to plump the hazel shells with a sweet kernel, to set budding more and still more the later flowers for the bees, until they think warm

[10:01]

days will never cease, for summer is over brimmed with their clammy cells, and they will never cease. Whatever, if it's a state of sweetness coming to sweeter and sweeter ripeness, let it ripen. If you let it ripen, it will naturally drop. So, this letting the meditation state reaches ripeness in the moment, the moment of pleasure, the moment of calm, the moment of tranquility, let it ripen, let the sun warm it to its fullness, its sweetness, and then it will drop, and let it drop. The ripeness of the moment, the fulfillment of the moment, and the dropping, is as in being upright with the moment, it reaches its ripeness and drops away.

[11:03]

Be present with it, make your presence like the warming sun, bring every situation to completion, and watch it drop. So, Zazen is related to meditation in that way. It's not the meditation, it is the dropping of the meditation. Due to its fullness, due to its ripeness, and going beyond into total liberation. So, not learning meditation, but going beyond learning meditation, going to the other shore of learning meditation.

[12:07]

Just being upright is the formless site of enlightenment. Going beyond meditation into the formless site of liberation. Zazen is also not giving, but it is giving, going beyond giving. It is giving coming to its complete ripeness and dropping away. Zazen is also not the precepts, it is the precepts reaching their fullness, reaching their ripeness and dropping away. And so on, it's none of the paramitas, it's all of the paramitas.

[13:12]

In other words, it's going beyond giving, going beyond precepts, going beyond patience, going beyond enthusiasm, going beyond meditation, and going beyond wisdom. That's what it is to just be upright. That's where you see Buddha, beyond all practices and non-practices. So, and at this formless site of awakening is where you will be able to see the creation of the world, and see and witness all things dependently co-arising, to witness and realize Dharma.

[14:17]

I know someone hearing about this might say, well, is there no practice then, no realization? And we don't say that there is practice and realization, and we don't say there's not. We just say you can't defile it. It is a practice, we say, the practice of suchness, and the practice of suchness is the practice that you do without delay. What practice can you do with no delay? That is the practice of suchness. So, how can you practice mindfulness with no delay and with no preparation?

[15:41]

That's the mindfulness which is Sazen. Of course, the Buddha is mindful, although the Buddha is not always in a state of developed concentration. Sometimes the Buddha is in just a completely ordinary state, and also Buddha can do exercises and go into these concentration states. Buddhas are not always in these concentration states, they sometimes are, but Buddhas are always mindful, 24 hours a day, mindful. But the mindfulness that they have is not a mindfulness which they do. It's not a mindfulness which they go, okay, now I'm going to be mindful. One, two, three, mindful. Such a mindfulness is slightly or extensively defiled by making it into something you do,

[16:49]

by making it into an object. So, how can you remember to be mindful? Mindfulness means, the root of the word mindful is memory, remember. To remember, what the point is again? How can you remember to remember? And then you know what people do, they put signs around their room saying, remember, and they say, well how can you remember to look at the signs? After a while it gets boring to be staring up at those signs all the time. Occasionally you want to look out the window, well then you put signs over the windows saying, remember, and on the trees saying, remember. But after a while people stop looking at the signs in the trees and try to find some place in the landscape where there's no signs, so they can see some greenery. After a while just close your eyes and go into complete forgetfulness. Because you harass yourself with this fascist system of remembering.

[17:53]

We don't like that after a while, but most of us have to practice mindfulness for a long time to find out we don't want to do it that way. The way we want to do it, really, is by what we are that doesn't have to be remembered, namely what we are. So what are you that doesn't have to be remembered, that can't be remembered? That's mindfulness. Buddhas are always attentive. Always attentive to what's happening. Now what's happening is they're always attentive to all sentient beings, because all sentient beings are always happening. And they're attentive to that, always. This is their joy, this is their Buddhahood. How do you pay attention?

[18:58]

So maybe you know the story of the outrageous Zen master Ikkyu. Monk said to him, how do you practice Zen? He said, attention! Monk says, well, but how do you practice attention? Attention. But how can you remember to do it? Attention. There's no way to be yourself except the way you are yourself. This is giving up all devices, all contrivances, dropping them, and simply, utterly, being yourself. This is the four foundations of mindfulness, the way the Buddha practices them. Being upright includes and embraces the two names of the Bodhisattva of Infinite Compassion.

[20:17]

Well, there's many names, but in Chinese they have two different names, basically, for the Bodhisattva of Infinite Compassion. One name is kanan, or guanyin, which means listening to the sounds, listening to the sounds of all beings. That's one name. The other name is kanjizai, which means to listen to or observe the way the self exists. So Zen embraces both these kinds of Bodhisattvas of Infinite Compassion. So does the Four Foundations of Mindfulness. This means peace, right? Embracing both those aspects of Avalokiteshvara is the meaning of peace.

[21:29]

Which also, we have two sutras featuring these two aspects of Avalokiteshvara. One is the ten-verse one, emmei-juku-kanon-gyo, the other is the Heart Sutra. So the first aspect of listening to the sounds is the aspect of Zazen where you take up residence in your body. You listen to your body. You listen to the cries of your body. You take up residence in your body. You feel your posture, you feel your body relating to gravity, which it does, as you know, always. You feel this relationship, you enter, you listen to your body. You listen to your body breathing. You listen to your heart, you listen to your digestion, you listen to your nerves.

[22:38]

You settle into this body. You listen to your feelings, you listen to your feelings, you feel your feelings, pleasure, pain, neutral. Pleasure, pain, pain, pleasure, pain, [...] pleasure, pain, pleasure, pain, pain, pain, pleasure, pleasure, pleasure, pain, pain, pleasure, pleasure. You listen. It's happening. Pay attention to it. It's happening. It's being delivered to you every moment. Listen, listen, listen to your pleasure, listen to your pain, listen to your feelings. They're happening. This is called Guan Yin. When you listen to your pain, Guan Yin is in your body, is in your mind. Then, the third foundation of mindfulness, listen to your consciousness, listen to your

[23:43]

consciousness, listen to your emotions, listen to your opinions, listen to your conceptions, listen, listen, listen. Take up residence in your consciousness, fully. Fourth foundation of mindfulness, listen to the Dharma, listen to the Dharma, listen to the teaching, listen to the five skandhas, listen to the four great elements, listen to the four noble truths, listen to the teaching of dependent co-arising, listen, listen, listen. It's being told to you every moment, listen, listen. Be mindful. Take up residence. And then, Kanji Zaibosatsu, the Bodhisattva, which is the meditation on the way your self exists. After settling into your circumstances, look at how the self exists. Meditate on that, see how that is. How is it? And how is self and other related? Again,

[24:45]

now studying dependent co-arising and seeing the way the self exists. These two bodhis, these two aspects of compassion, be compassionate to yourself in those two ways. Bring yourself into the fullness of your life. This is Zazen. Got a watch? There's one by the door. There's one, nice cute little lady's watch. It's an interesting watch, it says, it says watch this, it's time to stop. Okay, everybody stop. I'll give that up. Okay, so,

[25:46]

the wonderful ancestor Hui Kug studied with the wonderful ancestor Bodhidharma. Bodhidharma mostly just showed the practice, he just sat mostly, that was his way. He was lucky, he could just sit, just to make it very, [...] very clear, he just sat and sat and sat. What's the practice? What's the practice? Excuse me, what is the practice? Will you show us the practice, please? For nine years they asked, and asked, and asked, and he showed, and he showed, and he showed, he showed, and he showed, and he showed. So, thanks to him, other ways are possible to show now, other ways to show the same thing.

[26:55]

Anyway, finally he did say something to Hui Kug. He said, make your mind like a wall. He sat facing a wall and his mind was like the wall. Make your mind like a wall. This is called Zazen, this is called just being upright. What's it like to have a mind like a wall? Outwardly, he said, outwardly, don't activate your mind around objects. Inwardly, no coughing or sighing about what's going on in your mind. Do you understand? Outwardly, don't activate your mind around the objects you see.

[27:58]

In other words, you see a tree, what do you see? What do you see when you see a tree? You see a tree. What does it mean to activate your mind around the tree? It means to say, now that, you know, to get excited about it and say, wow, now that is really a great tree. Wow, this is, or that tree really exists, or that tree doesn't exist. Or that tree is like the other tree. No, just see the tree. Now, if you do want to compare one tree to another, then that comparison between one tree and the other tree is another object out there. Don't get excited about that one too. Don't activate the mind around the objects, just let the objects be there, in whatever way they are, which nobody knows about. Really, knowing what the objects are is another way that you activate your mind around the object. There's a tree and you know what it is, then your mind gets a little agitated when you know it. To let it be there before you know it or don't know it, before you

[29:04]

make any comment, that's called not activating the mind around objects. Or another way he said it was, don't get involved in the objects. Your mind has objects. If it doesn't have objects, you can't have consciousness. So consciousness has objects, but you can stop it right there and just let the mind have enough of an object to be conscious. That's enough. Or like they say in mindfulness, the mindfulness of the body, just barely enough that you can be aware of an object. No more, and of course no less. Just be upright, meet it just so. That's what he means by outwardly don't activate or excite the mind around the objects, don't get hung up on them. Inwardly, of course there are objects

[30:05]

inwardly too, but anyway, inwardly in your mind don't cough and sigh, don't say, oh what a great thought, or what a lousy thought, or kind of like I think I'm going to faint my practice is so cool, or I really got a lousy practice, or I have certain opinions about certain people one way or another. Just let all this stuff be inwardly too. So that's the instruction he gave to Huayka, then Huayka practiced, tried to practice that way, for we do not know exactly how long. Wasn't timed back in the early days, but he came back at some point and said, well okay, I have no involvements. When I see things, I just let it be like that.

[31:14]

Bodhidharma says, well isn't that nihilistic to not have any involvements with the world? And Huayka said, no, and Bodhidharma said, prove it, and Huayka said, I'm just clearly aware, and no words can reach it. Bodhidharma said, doubt no more. This is the mind of all Buddhas. Clearly aware, no words can reach it. This is being upright. There are words all around it. Every word in the universe is around this mind. This mind is aware of all those words, every one, and none of them reach it.

[32:30]

It doesn't push them away, it doesn't pull them on. Pain and suffering are all around, it doesn't push them away, it doesn't pull them on. Bliss and freedom are all around, doesn't pull them on, doesn't push them away. It simply is aware, and nothing reaches it. It is like a wall. It is Bodhidharma, it is Huayka, it is all the ancestors, it is you, when you are simply yourself, and nothing reaches you, and nothing goes away from you. So, what is this Zazen? What is this being upright? Nobody knows.

[33:37]

No words can reach it, nobody knows what it is. It is completely free, and it is exactly what we are, every moment of our life. So, this way of being what you are,

[34:50]

in each moment, or anyway in a moment, is the gate to the self-fulfilling Samadhi, is the gate to understanding dependent co-arising of all things. But it's a gate, and then it's the practice that you continue once you have entered the realm of Dharma. Because the practice of just being yourself is selfless, so it can continue even after the self is forgotten. It is the practice of the forgotten self.

[36:00]

So, when the self thinks of this practice, the self feels stumped, perhaps, and frustrated, because the self does not do this practice. The forgotten self does this practice. But if you still are holding to yourself, then be compassionate, and settle into yourself. Be compassionate and patient with the fact that you still have yourself in your hand, and you're holding to it. Settle into the pain and suffering of holding the self. Compassionately, gently accept your situation. And when you find yourself holding to yourself, completely settled into having a self that you're holding, at that point you will forget the self. Uprightly settling into our attachments, attachments drop away.

[37:10]

But the settling, again, must be gentle, and there naturally is some sweetness in it. It isn't always sweet. But we have to gently settle, because we're settling into pain. There's some pain here, because of the clinging. We can't wait until there's no more clinging and no more pain, and then check in and be deliberated. We have to check in now. And if there's no pain, fine. One time I was here at Tassajara, and I was checking into my situation, and I didn't find any pain. So I didn't exactly run to Suzuki Roshi, but I did go see him, and say, well,

[38:18]

you know, it's not difficult anymore. What am I missing? He said, well, sometimes it may be easy for you. It's okay. Don't worry. It didn't last. But even a little, you know, a little bit of break in the pain and even a little bit of sweetness sometimes can be, you know, something we might suspect as due to some kind of denial. Maybe so. Who knows? Anyway, check in. Do heartbreak hotel. How'd it go? My baby left me, left me all alone.

[39:23]

I found a new place to dwell. It's at the end of a lonely street. That's heartbreak hotel. But sometimes the name gets changed, and it's travel lodge. And there's a swimming pool, you know, with a little slide. We're not in control of the housing assignments. We just check in to wherever we are. We make no selection. We just be where we are. This is called total devotion to immobile sitting.

[40:31]

Total devotion to not moving from where you are. Through all the tremendous variation of one day, be devoted totally to not moving from your present universally given experience. God-given experience, goddess-given experience. This is not a mistake. You're not at the wrong address. But again, gently, flexibly settle in. And then be upright there.

[41:41]

I don't say, then the doors will open. That is the open door. There in this realm of uprightness, there is no and then. And then there's bliss. And then there's freedom. This is freedom. Nobody knows why it's freedom or how, but it's a pretty consistent story. They all tell the same story. The self wants to know, well, and then what? The forgotten self can't remember to ask. So who told you recently the benefits of Alzheimer's?

[42:49]

One is that, you know, you never notice that there's reruns on TV. And this is the other one. You keep meeting new and interesting people. And you can't remember who you are. I added that to the list. You can't remember past and future. And then, za means sit. So in his school, za, sit, means to realize absolute freedom.

[43:55]

And to be unperturbed by all outward circumstances. Just like his ancestor, Bodhidharma, same thing. To be completely free of the objects, pain, suffering, cruelty, happiness, sadness, whatever they are. Be free and unperturbed by them. That's what it means to sit. And za means to see your original nature and not be confused. That's his idea. When we see cruelty in the world, when we see an object called cruelty,

[45:21]

we maybe feel duty-bound to get upset. To sit, according to the ancestor, does not mean that when you see cruelty you get excited and upset. It means when you see cruelty, you completely, completely, completely experience freedom in relationship to the cruelty. You do not try to push the cruelty away or pull it on you. You become intimate with the cruelty. Becoming intimate with the cruelty, you are not upset. You are not disturbed by the cruelty.

[46:24]

You are intimate with it. It is not other than you. It cannot push you around. You cannot push it around. And you meet the cruelty in that way and you use that moment of meeting cruelty as a moment to realize peace and harmony in this world. You transform in this way cruelty into peace. Not you. The practice of intimacy with cruelty renders cruelty inefficient. It takes no effect. But if you ignore the cruelty or push the cruelty, then there is cruelty in the world and you think so.

[47:27]

And then there is cruelty in the world and you have made it live. Because you did not become intimate with it. Because when you saw the object called cruelty, you activated your mind and became a slave of cruelty, a servant of cruelty, and your life extended the cruelty into the world. But if you stay upright and close, so close that there is no separation between you and cruelty, so there is no difference between you and cruelty, then there is peace and harmony in the world. If you run at the cruelty and indulge in it, that's not intimacy.

[48:39]

If you run away from the cruelty, that's not intimacy. To meet it with not the slightest bit of intimacy, not the slightest hairs-breadth deviation, this is called sitting. This is absolute freedom from all circumstances. Now if it's something wonderful like Buddha, same practice. You don't run after the Buddha, you don't run away from the Buddha. If it's great pleasure and peace, you don't run after the peace, you don't run away from the peace. If you run after the peace, you make peace into slavery. If you push the peace away, you make peace into slavery.

[49:47]

No matter what it is, peacefulness, cruelty, kindness, roughness, brutality, whatever it is, if there's a slightest difference between you and it, you become possessed by it, and it turns into poison. But through intimacy with all objects, so intimate that the object does not disturb you at all, because you're so close to it, you are one with it, then no matter what it is, you're free and there's peace. But how can you be gentle? How can you be flexible enough? How can you be tender enough to settle into that kind of intimacy with something very sweet, or something very bitter? How can you be gentle enough to settle into intimacy with something very soft,

[50:54]

or something very hard? How? Nobody knows how. When I said this, I could see faces wincing and bodies jerking, because it's awesome to contemplate getting that close to cruelty. We want to be at least a little ways away from it, perhaps in another state or another world. But the wanting to be a little bit away from cruelty, that desire to be away from it, defiles your practice and lets cruelty live. If there's something cruel and we all evacuate the area, cruelty is in charge. If we had a really monstrous person here at Tassajar and we all left,

[51:57]

I wouldn't help that person, I wouldn't help Tassajar. Bitter medicine, the sweetest fruit. So, one time in a Zen monastery, the monks eating bowls were starting to disappear. They wondered where they were going. And someone, I don't know, someone discovered that in one of the monks' rooms

[53:09]

there were a lot of eating bowls starting to accumulate. And they reported this situation to the teacher. And the teacher says, okay, let's get them. And so all the monks and the teacher went to the monk's room where all the bowls were and they brought with them all of their valuable possessions and gave them to him. So, of course, there was nothing more to be stolen. And the monk had everything in the world and he became the great master. But I can't tell you his name, to protect the innocent. But it's somebody who you all know really well.

[54:21]

But you need to get to know this person a little bit better. There's still a little bit of separation between you and this dirty thief. If you and I can somehow find a way to settle so intimately that there's not the least bit of separation between us and all evil, and all cruelty, and all pain, if we can close that gap, we will also completely seal the gap between ourselves and the perfect path of all Buddhas. But if there's the slightest bit of separation between us and any kind of problem in this world, the slightest bit of distance, then we will also be separated by that distance from perfect liberation.

[55:33]

And you might think, someone I might say, of course we wouldn't mind getting close to perfect liberation. It's getting close to our imprisonment that we have a problem with. But actually, when it comes down to it, it's just as difficult, it's just as scary to get close to perfect liberation as it is to get close to utter cruelty. They're both very difficult when you get close. It's just as difficult, actually, I think, to get as close to Suzuki Roshi, to get really close to Suzuki Roshi, was just as difficult for me as it would be to get close to certain other people who I find... You know. I mean, sometimes, you know, you just have kind of like, you know, a bodily reaction to people, right?

[56:44]

Like the smell of some people's breath you really don't like. It's really hard to be... to smell it. Or certain people's body odor. You know, you kind of have an allergic reaction, right? It's not your fault. But anyway, how do you become intimate with that allergic reaction? And you know, you might have an allergic reaction to Suzuki Roshi. If he was here, you know, he came to visit, some of you might have an allergic reaction to him. You might think, I heard he's a great Zen master, but I just feel uncomfortable when I get near him. Most people didn't, but... That's because he didn't get near enough. If you really get near to anybody, there's a time, no matter who they are, when you get close, when it gets really hard not to run away or grab them. Very hard.

[57:48]

Not... when you get really close, not to make them into an object. Very hard. But most of all, you know who it's hardest to get close to. And you can start with that one. Get close to that one that's always with you. And if you can finally do that, then you might be able to get close to somebody else. But it's tough work. So if you don't... If you don't achieve complete intimacy with ease, don't be surprised. All the ancestors had a hard time. If you have a hard time, you have wonderful company. But although they had a hard time, they also were devoted to it. So, if you want to be like the great ancestors, or whatever, then devote yourself to this intimacy with yourself.

[58:57]

And it's only because I want lunch that I'm going to stop. Otherwise, I'm just going to keep talking until all beings... achieve intimacy with themselves.

[59:21]

@Text_v004
@Score_JJ