So, would you two act it out? You can be Guishan, Meg. You be Yangshan. Yes? Yes? I read it just a minute ago, and when you say act it out, is that connected to the introduction? No, not the introduction. Just the main case. I'll do the introduction. Okay? driving away the plowman's ox, pulling its nose around, taking away the hungry man's food, holding his throat tight. Is there anyone who can administer the poison? The case. Someone suddenly said, all sentient beings just have active consciousness, boundless and unclear, without fundamental survival. How would you prove it in experience?

[01:01]

If a monk comes, I call him, Hey, you! If the monk turns his head, I say, What is it? If he hesitates, I say, Not only is their active consciousness boundless and clear, they have no fundamental... Mahin, would you read the verse, please? One girl and Peter, she said, we know this all for now. We thought we left alone a true idea present at that the child reaches as soon as they defaults.

[02:12]

On the boundless road of destination has touched sorrow. That's it. So what shall we do with this case? There's a story in the Blue Cliff Record, in a commentary,

[03:14]

And it's case seven. And there's a case in this book of serenity, case number 17. May I borrow your pen for a second, Michael?

[04:21]

that I think might be helpful. Basically, what we have here is a subtle discrimination being made between the situation of karmic consciousness that's boundless and unclear, and then a situation of freedom and enlightenment. Some kind of distinction can be made between the two. And in one case, If you say something to somebody, if they respond, you can test by their response whether this is a case of freedom and awakening or whether it's a case of just active karmic consciousness, of confused karmic consciousness, unredeemed karmic consciousness.

[06:31]

Okay? And the basic thing here is that if you call the person's name and they just respond appropriately, that's what awakening is, just appropriate response. And karmic consciousness is when the person hesitates. And there are two forms of hesitation, being too slow and being too fast. Usually people are too slow. For you. Because you're right on time. So that's why I thought this fascicle on Harris-Brett difference would be helpful to review at this time.

[07:38]

The distance between enlightenment and delusion is the same distance as between heaven and earth. In other words, everything that happens in the world is that distance. Everything in the world happens between heaven, which is basically nothing's happening. It's unmovable. unshakable reality and earth where everything is happening and where it's completely movable. Everything is willing to change places with everything else. And everything that seems to be happening is a combination of this great flexibility and softness and no flexibility because there's nothing moving to be flexible about. Everything is a combination of these two things. And if there's enlightenment, you understand, and if there's delusion, you're kind of pushed around by what's happening.

[08:45]

But the difference between these two is can be just the tiniest thing, but that tiny, tiny thing is enough to create the full range of understanding and phenomena. The full range of ideas of self and other or self and elements as we talked about in the case on Wednesday night that just that Harris-Brett deviation just that just that those three transformations of consciousness just transforming consciousness into something that you know something that you can get a hold of imagination that is out there and being able to separate some part of it from the rest of it. That little trick of the mind creates all the different kinds of senses of self and elements.

[09:52]

It's a very thin thing. Okay, so this case 17 talks about that. And in case 17, too, there is a testing going on of this very issue. And we can act that out, too. And would someone wish to act out the parts? There's two parts in this one, too. The great master, Fa Yan, and the not-so-great master, Xu Shan. Great enough to get his name in the book, but he didn't get a school named after him. So who will act out the parts? Susan and Miriam. A hair's breadth difference is as the distance between heaven and earth.

[11:02]

How do you understand? A hair's breadth difference is as the distance between heaven and earth. How can you get it that way? Why, I'm just thus. What about you? The hair's breadth difference is as the distance between heaven and earth. Did you see Marion Fowle? Wasn't one of those earth-crushing But subtle Linda could tell she's different. Okay. And then... Oh, by the way, did you notice the Harris-Brett difference between the two? Hmm?

[12:04]

Did you see it? What? The I in you? Do you see it? That's good. Anyplace else, did you notice the Hare's breath? Was there a difference in the Hare's breath? What? In their voices. In their voices. She was like an echo. It was like a dimmer now. A tinted mirror? A muting mirror? A dirty mirror? Had enough of the hare's breath?

[13:35]

Well, here we are back in the koan class. Studying those old stories. And here comes David. You missed the essence of Buddhism, David. Sorry. I'll have to read a book, though. Stuart Miskin. Poor Stuart. Want to sit up closer, David? I can't see your face. Would you like to sit right there? You can sit over there. Okay, now here's another story like this. It's a little more complicated story.

[14:47]

We can read it together, if you like. Do you like? Okay. This guy, Master Xu Shan and Fa Yan both studied with Di Cang. Do you know what Di Cang means? It means... It means earth womb or earth store, you know, like Jizo Bosatsu, earth store bodhisattva. This teacher is called Jizo or Ditsan because that's the name of his temple. So they both studied with this teacher and they deeply benefited from the power of refinement of studying from the side. What that is? What do you mean? Studying from the side, working directly. Yeah, but anything else? No. No? No. You didn't have any other idea? Sit here. Okay. Then will I have an idea?

[15:51]

What? Then will I have an idea? Yeah, now do you have an idea what studying from the side might mean? Yes. What? I'm studying from the side right now. Right. Do you feel some refinement happening? I feel nervous as hell. What was that? It's a piece of mud. So anyway, they benefited from the studying by the side. This public case is the same as this public case being this one we're studying right now, the one about the hare's breath. It's the same as this following story. where the Fa Yan broke down the superintendent of the monastery. Fa Yan broke him down. What's the matter, Linda? You'll soon find out.

[16:52]

Now you're going to find out. Okay, here goes. Who was there upon enlightenment after his breakdown? The stories where the people broke down are not usually written down. However, there is a story I read recently up where the great master Hakuin Zenji, who encouraged, one of the encouragements for me to start practicing Zen, he said he made two mistakes. And one of the mistakes was where he broke, a monk broke down when he gave him a criticism. Monk broke down and never recovered. And he said towards the end of his life, I made two mistakes. That was one of them. But this is a happy story where the teacher broke the monk down and the monk got enlightened right afterwards. So Superintendent Tzu later became Chan Master Shrenza of Bao-Yin Monastery in Jingling.

[17:56]

One time Fa-Yin asked him, Who have you seen? Shrenza said, I saw Master Ching Fung. Fa Yan said, what did he say? You know, what did he say at the time you saw him? And Shrensa said, I asked him, what is the student's self? And Ching Fung said, The god of fire comes seeking the god of fire. Fa Yan said, How do you understand this? Shen Ze said, The god of fire is in the province of fire. To seek fire by fire is like seeking the self by the self. Fa Yan said,

[19:01]

even understanding this way, how could you get it? Do you recognize the echo to the case above? Even understanding this way, how could you get it? So, even understanding this way, it's like the... How can you get it that way? It's pretty good, but how can you get it with this kind of response? Or how can you demonstrate or prove it or validate it? That's what Fa Yun asked the superintendent. Shrentz has said, I am just thus.

[20:13]

I don't know what your idea is, Master. Same response, okay? Basically. You're following this? And Fayan said, did I skip something? No. Ba Yan said, I ask you, I know, you ask me and I'll tell you. Now this compresses the story. The longer version is something happened in between there. Here's a longer version. So one day Fa Yan asked the superintendent, how long have you been here? How long have you been studying in this temple here? And the superintendent said, three years so far.

[21:19]

He says, you're young. Why don't you ever ask about the teaching? The monk said, I don't want to deceive you. I already attained peace while I was at the place of another Zen master." Fa Yan said, By what words did you gain entry? And Shrenza said, Once I asked the teacher, What is the student's self? The teacher said, The fire god comes looking for fire. Hearing the story, Fa Yan remarked, That's a fine saying, but I'm afraid you don't understand. The monk said, The fire god is in the realm of fire. To seek fire with fire is like seeking self with self. Fa Yan said, You really don't understand. If Buddhism were like this, it wouldn't have reached the present.

[22:23]

The monk left in high dungeon. Oh, isn't that dodging means? No. Indignation. How dare you say that? I don't understand this story. This is how he gained enlightenment, by hearing these words. And it is a good story, but anyway, you don't understand. But after the monk left, He thought, well, this guy is a teacher of 1,500 people. Maybe there's something to what he's saying. Maybe there's some point to his warning that I'm wrong. So he went back to the master and apologized. I'm sorry.

[23:27]

Let's go over this one more time, okay? And Faryan said, you ask me and I'll tell you. So the monk says, Shrenza says, what is the student's self? Just like he asked before, okay? So let's do it again like he asked before. Like he asked the other teacher, ask me. He says, what is the student's self? And Faryan says, the fire god comes seeking fire. And Shrenza was suddenly Enlightened at these words By yen had chisel and all in his hands Taken away the seal remains left there the seal is ruined This is case what? The iron ox, okay Take if you take the seal away

[24:33]

The seal remains. You leave the seal, the seal is ruined. Okay? Case 29 is talking about the same kind of interaction. He broke the superintendent. He broke up the superintendent's barrier of feelings and pulled down, pulled open Master Xu Shan's chains of consciousness. Fa Yan did that. And then Dogen says, after this monk was enlightened, Dogen says, before it was the fire god looking for fire, and it was the fire god looking for fire afterwards too.

[25:39]

Why wasn't he enlightened the first time, but fell into the road of intellectual understanding? And why was he greatly enlightened afterwards and shed his nest of cliché? Do you understand? The fire god comes looking for fire. How much light do the pillars and lamps begrudge? Buried in ashes, though you search, you don't see. Lighting it up and blowing it out, it goes into action again. This is the Ehe Koroku, number 11. So, case 17, case 29, Case 7 of the Woodcliffe record with this story here.

[26:44]

And what we're looking at right now, they're all bearing on the same point. You miss your old seat? Yeah. My book's over there. You want to go back? No. Yeah. Yeah. So, it's quite a bit of material. I don't know how well you followed it. Did you follow it pretty well? The stories? That's a poem celebrating this story, okay? From this book?

[27:46]

which is Ehe Koroku by Dogen. This is Dogen's celebration. So Dogen says, you know, first time through it was fire god comes looking for fire. And it was fire god looking for fire afterwards also, okay? In one case, it was getting involved in intellectual understanding. The other case, it was shedding the nest of pre-shade. What's the difference? And then he says, the fire god comes looking for fire. How much light do the pillars and the lamps begrudge? Buried in ashes, though you search, you don't see. lighting it up and blowing it out, one goes into action again.

[28:49]

Yes? Well, I think the difference is the spirit in which he came. And the first time he came with an expectation and without wanting something particular. And the second time he came, he had First time he came, it appears that he didn't get the need to look for fire anymore. The second time, he was once again looking for fire, but his chef thought, well, I think I'll be a fire guard's job. And he continued looking for fire. He started lighting it up and putting it into action. He said the self is looking for the self. It felt like he was saying, well, it's a futile effort.

[29:56]

We didn't get so high shot. The feeling I got from that statement. Yeah, that was his expression of understanding of the statement, fire God comes seeking fire. In one sense, fire God doesn't have to seek fire, right? But in our sense, fire God does have to seek fire. I mean, it's silly for the fire god to seek fire, right? But at the same time, fire god has to seek fire. And it's silly for the self to seek the self, but the self has to seek the self. Now, even though that's the case, in seeking the self, or seeking fire, how do you seek it? Just fire by himself. Just fire itself. The second time. It was fire itself the second time. Yes, it was light, you know. Can you see the light in this cup? This cup doesn't begrudge its light.

[31:05]

Sometimes you see the light in the cup and sometimes you don't. If you look for the light in the cup, you won't see it. But everything has light. It's a good saying for the tea room. the light in a cup. And, you know, what was the difference between these three?

[32:20]

A hair's breadth difference is as the distance between heaven and earth. A hair's breadth difference is as the distance between heaven and earth. A hair's breadth difference is as the distance between heaven and earth. What's the difference between those three? One is hair's breadth difference is as the distance from heaven and earth. How do you understand that? How do you understand it? A hair's breadth difference is as the distance between heaven and earth. That's pretty good, you know. Don't you think? Somebody comes up and says to you, hello. You say, hello. That's pretty good. Somebody comes up to you and says, hello. How do you understand this? Hello. That's good. But how do you get it that way? And the guy says, I'm just thus. How about you, teacher? Hello. And then he understands.

[33:26]

But since he's a great Zen master, he doesn't have enlightenment. He just bows. He's already... Ah, yes. Refreshing, refreshing. Thank you. Yes? The phrase about the... about the fire in the ash. It refers to the story of a teacher asking his student to relight the fire. The student would say, the fire has gone out. And the teacher reaches in, brings 40 embers from the fire. Yeah. And another case of a validation, a verification, All these stories are about, you know, verification. Pardon?

[34:38]

Why do you need verification? Why? Yeah. I don't answer why questions. So you're safe. Fire gods need it. The self needs it. The self that doesn't need it is... doesn't understand. Some people practice Buddhism and they love it, but they don't need to prove it.

[35:50]

Buddha didn't have a Buddhism to love, but he had to prove it. So, even if you love Buddhism so much that you realize it, even if you love the Buddha way so much that you become liberated, liberation is not enough. You have to go beyond liberation. And prove it. Prove it. Proving it is not so much prove it just to prove it. Prove it is to get yourself out of the nest of the liberation. To get yourself not stuck in freedom is to free yourself from spiritual practice. Wonderful spiritual practice. that really works for you. You have to free yourself from that.

[36:56]

You don't have to free yourself from spiritual practice that doesn't work for you. No problem there. It doesn't work. If you don't like it, you're not going to get stuck there. Matter of fact, you're trying to get out of spiritual practice that doesn't work. You're about to give up, as a matter of fact, most of the time. And try to find spiritual practice that will work. But when spiritual practice works, then you have to free yourself from that. That's what verification's for. It makes your realization impersonal. It makes your realization universal. You could take it to Washington and cut out people's tongues with it. You can split pillars in two with it.

[37:57]

And you can save every single sentient being with it. But your personal liberation does not do that. Personal awakening does not do that. And therefore hasn't been verified. The Buddha's realization is verified as being universal, as being not just for you, but for everybody. How do you prove it for everybody? That's the issue. This monk had some realization, had some entry, but it didn't work for the teacher. And every little act during the day, actually, you can wake up to it. Because every little act is the immutable knowledge of all Buddhas. You're already a success, actually.

[39:06]

You can wake up to that. Right now, any time, which is fine. You can be happy. Just watch TV. No problem. But proving it, that's a different story. How are you going to prove it? How are you going to prove your happiness? How are you going to test it? What is how you test it? Just say, hey, you. Or just say, hello. Or just watch the self seek the self. What kind of tea is this? Is it fitness tea? It has to, it has to. Are you feeling good? I'm feeling, I have a sort, I have a kind of severe illness. Is it contagious?

[40:08]

Yes. But you have to drop down your defenses in order to get it. What? The salt. Martha, how could you say that? Okay, now, ready for the verse? Wanna read the verse? I mean, do you want to? We don't have to. Is there something else? Yes. Never heard you say that before, Henry. Time wasn't right.

[41:16]

One call and she turns her head. Do you know the self or not? So that's a little Zen trick, you know, if you call somebody and they don't know who it is, as they turn their head, or as you turn your head when you're being called, watch right then. When you're not being called by anybody you know, you don't know what you're being called to look for. You're just turning to look. Those are the eyes that see the light. But then they say, what is it? Or do you know the Self? Or what's Buddha? And then you close your eyes because you're looking for something. You're looking for Buddha, the right answer, the Self. And your eyes shut. He calls and they turn their heads and says, do you know the Self or not?

[42:22]

What is it? And so on. Vaguely like a moon through ivy, a crescent at that. So what's that about? What's just a finger pointing? The ivy. The ivy. The ivy's a finger pointing? How does that apply to this story? It describes not being immutable. Describes how we know the self. Describes how we know the self?

[43:26]

How we know the self. The ivy does? No, vaguely. Hmm? Vaguely. Who said vaguely? I did. Vaguely is how we know the immutable self. And vaguely like ivy? Like the moon through ivy. Like the moon through ivy. Greatly obscured. Greatly obscured. You can't see much of it at that moment. Only a bit is showing. Only a bit, and you can't see much of it. So the hesitation is the hair. That's the separation. Is the hair's path the eye thing, or the face of the one? Well, one could say neither. That It's a hesitation in response to the crescent moon through the ivy.

[44:26]

It's a hesitation to what's happening here. This class, for example, is an example of we're being sheltered, right? the architecture of this building and the people, we pack these people in here so everybody's protected as a shield from the truth, right? It isn't like blowing your brains out. You're just kind of like, here you are and you can just relax, kind of like walk in here like you walk in any place else and just, you're not being forced into swallowing the truth, right? And yet, what? Relax? Relax? Well, you could be. You could be relaxed. I mean, a lot of people come in here and have a nice time. It's an option. It's an option. Or you can hesitate. You can hesitate moment by moment in response to the presentation here.

[45:32]

But generally speaking, fortunately or unfortunately, we are sheltered That's one of the things I like about Green Gulch is the fog shelters us from the harsh rays of the sun. A sheltered existence here. It's a metaphor for the sheltered existence that all beings are experiencing. Sometimes the shelteredness is extremely painful. Cancer, other kinds of severe illnesses, war, these kinds of things are actually, it's shelter, but it's, it's ivy, but it's, it's very difficult ivy. It's being clubbed by the ivy. It's having the ivy, you know, rubbed in our eyes. But still, the hesitation is to those kinds of things. Hesitating in response to the ultimate truth.

[46:39]

Not believing that that's fully seeing the moon. Yeah, or believing that it's fully seeing the moon. Two forms of hesitation, which I mentioned before you came in here so late. Just kidding, just kidding. He missed you missing, yes, as a Buddha. And he didn't think he missed much. He did. I was here. He didn't miss much. I was. Isn't there something to do with, I'm trying to get all this vocabulary together, but the whole thing of the emptiness and fullness, because if you sing within the conception, the moon, where there's full connection with

[48:07]

Enlightenment would be, or whatever, would be the emptiness. I almost had something. Good try. Keep it up. For several eons. What? A kelp. Yeah, that's right. Are you relaxed? Somewhat. Okay. Stay on the poem for a little bit longer. Okay. Because I feel like I understand one call he turns his head, you know the self or not, that's kind of clear, that feels very clear. But the second one, vaguely like the mood through ivy, a question of that, I feel like I'm sort of locked out, although it's

[49:08]

It's kind of right there, but I feel like I'm locked out of it. Does anybody else feel that? That's perfect, though. That's it. You've got the meaning of that line. Yeah, keep going, keep going. Precisely, Watson. Keep going, Cynthia. Well, the way you're feeling about the rest of the verse is what the verse is talking about. because it's that kind of seeing something or sensing it or feeling it, but you can't, you know, it's like all around you here, and you can't hold it right here, and you can't really identify it, but you know it. You see, that's what seeing the moon, the crescent moon, through ideas like that. So you're experiencing what the rest of that verse is. You've got it.

[50:11]

That line. I think. When you say the rest of the verse, do you mean the rest of that line? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Not the part about the riches and the child? Falling on the road, destitution. I just don't. But if you have some sense of it... You're a child, aren't you? Excuse me. If you have some sense of it, it doesn't really matter if it's just the tiniest sense of it, because it's there. I mean, you don't... That's right, that's what the crescent moon is. The crescent moon is some sense of it. Just a little sense of it, though. All you need is a little sense of the moon. And we talked about, too, it says, you know, when there's a crescent moon, where did the whole full moon go?

[51:13]

When it's a full moon, where does the crescent go? But when you look at a crescent moon, actually, if you look at it, you can see the rest of the moon. Usually. Usually it's not really black, it's there's something there that you can actually see, not only implied by the lines of it, but you can actually see the rest of the moon. So that's part of what's going on, is just that little bit you've got to work with. But add on to it a little ivy in a way, and you feel it seems vague somehow. And it's like this rich child, child of a rich family, as soon as he falls, as soon as she falls on the boundless road, boundless road of destitution, has such sorrow.

[52:20]

And this is referring to this famous story in the Lotus Sutra about this son of a rich family who wanders off You know, he got a little bit lost, and then he got lost big time. He just got, you know, a little bit too far away from home, and then he was gone. And, you know, and he got on this boundless road of destitution. He himself found his way back home, so it has a happy ending. But the road he was on is boundless. You know, it's really... Karmic consciousness is boundless. It's not kind of like a small area where you're lost. That's partly because we have tremendous imagination, you know? We can always keep imagining being disinherited, being in destitution. We can do that boundlessly.

[53:22]

And it's not like... And also you might think, well, I'll walk around I'll walk around, and I'm on the skids, but I'll remember that I'm actually a child of a great sovereign family, and really I'm Buddha's child, which is good, it's true. Keep remembering, that's nice. But, you know, you're going to feel lousy if you feel that way. So it's true that you are Buddha's child, and you've temporarily fallen into destitution. But if you think about that, you still feel lousy. So it's not so much go around reminding yourself of that, although a little of that sometimes is good to tell people, no, you really are in Buddha's family. That's nice encouragement. But in actual practice, I don't think it's so much that you keep reminding yourself of that. Also, this line seems to echo the first line, in the sense that it's one call, he turns his head, and that's the child of riches, and then the hesitation is the falling on the sorrow.

[54:39]

Right, the hesitation is a falling in sorrow. It seems that we only can know that we're a child which is through our soul. Right. So the path home is on the path of destitution.

[55:43]

And kind of a pitch for studying koans in this class is that there's some people who are functioning in this world And they come to this class and they start feeling destitution. Or they start having sorrow. They feel like they're falling into a pit. So they want to change classes. So they go to Wednesday night, but that's no better. So then they come back to Monday night. Or they try to go to Sunday morning. That might help, which is fine. But if you're trying to run away from the sorrow and the sense of destitution, look at that. Keep an eye on that, that motivation. So in some sense, this verse is a kind of encouragement for us to

[57:07]

live with crescent moons and full moons too if they're up there and uh... even if we can't see a crescent moon without some obstruction live with that and live with the sorrow of that and feel the boundlessness of that sorrow if we do feel the boundlessness of it but don't try to feel the boundlessness of it just to just to feel like you're in the club The boundlessness of it is partly that it's now what you're experiencing. It's the variety that you're now working with. It can be that. And is there any hesitation? Yes? You think something would be wrong with you if you felt that You're missing the boundlessness, but you don't feel the sorrow, but you still feel the missing.

[58:15]

Say it again. Do you think there'd be something wrong with the way you felt if you missed the boundlessness? You felt the destitution? But you don't feel sorrow. You just feel the missing bone. No, that's enough. You can just feel like you're a poor bone. That's enough. You can feel completely comfortable with that. But I'm saying don't try to go feel that way just so you feel like, well, finally I'm a Zen monk because I feel like I'm a bum. I think when you feel like you're a bum, you've basically got the hang of it. Feeling like a bum is, you know, ivy in your face and a crescent moon, which is like, you know, I don't have any money or I just got a little bit of money plus I can't find it. that's enough that's enough that's enough that's just kind of like you know but you don't have to do anything you don't have to like jazz it any further than that that can be the way it is it might shift into something more grandiose but it doesn't have to you know it can just be enough and enough

[59:37]

enough to work with but the key is this hair's breath deviation or this that subtle difference the thing between overshooting and undershooting the moment finding some some way to settle with this uh present situation this practice is really you know pretty simple this is just more encouragement to do the basic practice of being present and observing the subtlety of the mind and how it, you know, how the same expression, in one case it's intellectual, the other case it's dropping intellectualness. In one case you're completely present, in another case you hesitate slightly. You're too soon or too late. You're holding this way or pushing away that way. Or you think you are.

[60:42]

And it's not looking, you know, the instructions not to try to find someplace, some good place to be or some good instruction or something. To keep looking until you find a full moon or someplace where there's no ivy obstructing anything. The road to reunion is through poverty. Yes? I sort of got that when I came over tonight, or before dinner. I could see the ocean a lot. There wasn't a fog because I usually come on Sunday mornings and it's all fogged in. But coming over and I went, oh, that's it. Because sometimes it's fogged in and I can't see that far. And then I can see further. But I wouldn't even, I wouldn't have noticed if I wasn't paying attention, so I just did it together like that, and it's very practical. It is.

[61:56]

And then, and then, here we are. So how are you doing, Peter? Martha? I have a confession to make. Good. I didn't get anything you were saying for the first half of the conference. I'm sort of glad it doesn't matter whether we're keen or dumb, but I thought it was an experience I didn't want to confess to. This fire, all that stuff, and the stories you were telling, I just, I missed it. Mm-hmm. You want to go over it again now? You want to go over that stuff again now? Oh, I wouldn't ask that we all have to do that.

[63:01]

Do you want to go over it yourself, though? Well, I... Not right now. It might happen again. I've not quite had that experience in the class for such a long time where you kept telling stories and I kept saying, I don't know... Doesn't happen very often. Oh, it happens, but it was continuous for... And then something shifted? Or you just stopped telling stories? We got to the verse. Yeah, probably wasn't... It may not be necessary to bring up these other stories, but I want you to I want you to be able to see how the other stories help bear on this particular issue right here. And how the issue is not that we would try to like, what, this story, this koan is not about, it's telling us not to try to get rid of karmic consciousness.

[64:18]

Don't try to get rid of it. Don't try to improve it. Because there's no fundamental... There's nothing good there to work on anyway, basically. The question is how to prove, how to verify, how to validate karmic consciousness. Now, don't try to fix it up. Just validate it as it is. Because it is the... As such, it's the immutable knowledge of all Buddhas. What approach can you have to your mind to make your mind valid? Now, in a sense, you might think, well, the approach then will change the mind, but it doesn't really change the mind. Karmic consciousness is still what it is, always. But there is a path of validation There is a path of transcendence in this field of unclear, unbounded, karmic activity.

[65:30]

Well, I would say my experience is quite similar to yours. My question has to do with the relationship between these guys because it seems like to me that seems like the key factor in the waking up and the difference between asking the question one time and the second time and that one time he doesn't get it and then later he does. How Do you think that the name, that the most important factor there is their relationship? Well, I'd say yes. And their relationship is, the context of their relationship is their bodies, their minds, their language.

[66:42]

Because it seems like that's the most important thing, is that if you just cut it back. But that's the difference. Yeah, the most important thing is that you practice, that you keep practicing. It seems like the earlier part of the class, when the two men are talking, they're talking that hair spread, and there isn't enough ID there. to make it clear, because it's just, it's right there. But it almost seems you need to have that connection if you have something that's scary, so that you pay attention and go through. But that's true. It is almost easier. So this is a case in these stories where the ivy and the crescent moon is very subtle.

[67:46]

It's like fire god is seeking fire god, fire god is seeking fire god. The ivy and the crescent moon are very subtle there. But this thing which causes this whole, you know, surface of suffering in the universe, it's very thin. It's a very kind of, it's like the mind just kind of like, just goes, just puts this little thin film over itself and projects its contents all over the universe. And that film is very thin. It's the thinness of a gesture of the consciousness and you can project everything on that film. And it's like a soap bubble, you know, and everything that's on there is constantly swirling and turning in chaos because the projection process is projecting a chaotic scene because our mind is not organized before it's projected out and changing constantly.

[68:59]

It's very thin, very subtle. And the big differences are just across the surface of the projection. The projection itself is very thin and very subtle. So when you look at the surface and it says the same thing once, twice, three times, ten times, a million times, you can see how subtle it is. And it's just like kind of different positions on the same film. And it's very thin. So my foreground and background, you know, pay attention to the background. It's just there. Like white noise. Well, the foreground is this film. that we project the background onto.

[70:03]

Yeah, except this is just a breakdown, not a nervous breakdown. Your reality is shattered. What does he do? What did he do there? Oh, what did he do? Oh, it's the other one. Anyway, took it away. For Shushan and for the superintendent, he managed to take something away. And their relationship allowed that to happen. And I don't think he did it intentionally, like, I'm going to take something away. Just the way he was, naturally, took it away. Yes?

[71:10]

I've been thinking a lot about the middle of July. Yes? You know, thinking about the four noble truths and so forth. And then I realized, and we talked about it earlier, it doesn't say there's no fundamental. It just says there's no fundamental to rely on. Because if they said there was no fundamental, that would be a fundamental. That's right. So we're not taking a position on the fundamentals. So no fundamental to rely on means whatever it means that the status of the fundamental is unstated. We're not going to say that there isn't one. We're not going to say there is one. However, I think we can say that most people are looking for one and trying to hold on to one and are constantly attributing something to the issue of fundamentalness It makes it something that you think you can get a hold of and rely on.

[72:14]

I think that's why I got lost in the beginning of this class, too, because we've been talking about this case of dinner and talking about, you know, with that man about, you know, for the middle of the line. I came in here and I thought you were going to tell us there's something to be lying about. I mean, I kind of had that all turning around, and then you feel so many off-the-wall things in there that, you know, I just like, I lost it completely. And then it all came back to a different form. It was great. And I wasn't trying to do that. I was trying to, you know, give you more to hold on to. Because for me... So now everybody's okay, huh? Except for Paul. He was in the path of destitution. I thought, somehow, I thought this case was going to take forever.

[73:37]

But it doesn't seem to be taking forever. I guess, for me, we're done with this class. If you feel we're done with this case, if you have some sense of how to work, if you have some sense of how to prove it in daily life, if you have some sense of dealing with this hair's breath or dealing with this hesitation. And so I guess maybe one thing we could do is between now and next class, you could start studying the next case if you want to, But particularly, see if you can apply the practice that you see in this case to your day-to-day life. This issue of, you know, what is it, or hey you.

[74:50]

See if when people say hey you to you, watch what you do, see how you behave. When you talk to others and you say, How do they respond? Work with this in your relationships and see if there's some hesitation and see how you feel with that. Work on that. And then maybe we don't have to do any more on this. Maybe we have enough material now for this case and we don't need to work with it anymore. But we can tell maybe next week by how it goes whether we need to work with it more. And if not, If you don't have a sense of how to work on it, we should work on it some more, I think, so you can use this, so you can put this case into practice, and apply this case to your life. I think it's possible. I think, you know, we're a hair's breadth deviation away from being able to apply it. And if that seems like you're, kind of like, have a feeling for that edge,

[75:52]

Then we can go on to the next case next time, case 38. I think about this case a lot, this one here. This case is one of the fundamentals I rely on. Thank you for your confession. It seems to have unleashed a torrent of other confessions.

[76:18]

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