So we're on case 35, about Lupu. Lupu's acquiescence. Shall we read the story? When Lupu called on Jashan, without bowing, he stood right in front of him. Jashan said, A chicken roosting in a phoenix nest. It's not the same species. Go away, Lupu said. I've come from afar to find out your way, teacher.

[01:04]

I beg for your reception." Lupu said, Hmm? Oh, Jyotsan said, Before my eyes there is no you. Here there is no me. Lupu shouted, Want to sit up here? You can sit here or here. This is Mary. Mary. Lupu shouted and Joshan said, stop, stop. Don't be crude and careless. Clouds and moon are the same. Valleys and mountains are are different. It's not that you don't cut off the tongues of everyone on earth, but how can you make the tongueless person speak?"

[02:14]

Lupu had nothing to say. Jaishan shouted. Lupu acquiesced. You want to sit up here, Linda? You can sit on the floor. Sorry, he hit him. Joshan hit him and Lupu acquiesced. Maybe it would be good to read the... to read the verse, too. Wagging his head, shaking his tail, the red-tailed fish.

[03:20]

Independent through and through, he knows how to turn around. even if he has the art of cutting off tongues. Pulling his nose around subtly conveyed his spirit. Outside the screen of luminous jewels, wind and moon are like day. In front of the cliff of dead trees, flowers and plants are always in spring. Tongueless person, tongueless person. The true order is completely upheld in one knowing phrase. Walking alone in the kingdom, clear and comprehending, let everyone in the land be happy and joyful. A visitor to our class told me about something that came to her mind.

[05:09]

She had been seeing an art exhibit in Tibet, I mean in Kansas City, of Tibetan art, and saw this one statue, this one statue of male and female figures in union, in sexual union. And the title of the statue was Union of Wisdom and Ritual. which is kind of, I suppose it was Prajna and maybe, I don't know what the male figure was, maybe Shakti, or not Shakti, but what the male figure had been, I wonder, in Sanskrit.

[06:18]

And it reminds me of these two sides. One side is setting something up, like a ritual, and the other is just the way things are. that you can't get a hold of anything and nothing happens, united with setting something up. And the union of those two is an issue here, which sets up the precedent for this case. And we have, you want to sit up here, Grace? Just one here and one here. Sort of straight. Straight as a folding chair can be, I thought. So we had this nice conversation between these two gentlemen and

[07:27]

So I think in the background is this balancing, the union of these two sides of setting something up and not setting something up. And maybe they've achieved union of these two sides, of these two possibilities. We can look here and see what we find. So he called upon him, and he stood right in front of him. And then Jaishan said, chicken roosting in a phoenix nest, and it's not the same species. Go away. Taigan pointed out there's a story, some background on this. When he was training, he trained with Guishan.

[08:40]

Guishan was a head cook himself. At one point, he held the position of head cook in Baijiang's community. And a person who came, I guess, I don't know exactly what he was, whether he was a shaman or a phrenologist or what he was. Anyway, some kind of an occult expert came and told Baijian about this great spot for a monastery. So this guy had the ability to, like, take a good spot for monasteries and also, like, tell by people's facial construction and skull shape and stuff like that who would be, you know, what kind of person would go well to be the teacher of a certain type of geographical situation. These are, you know, Chinese geomancy and Chinese phrenology.

[09:42]

So this guy was an expert at both of these things. And he told the baijian that baijian wouldn't be good in this place, that he was too skinny. So he said, bring in some of your students. I can check some of them out. So they brought in the students. And when Guishan came in, they asked him some questions. And apparently, Bai Zhang had a spittoon near his seat. In some of the stories, they say there was a water container near his seat. But I think, actually, it was a spittoon from other stories I've heard. And after they brought the cook in, Guishan, and they asked him about what he thought about it. He kicked over the water bucket on the left, and the geomancer said, that's the guy.

[10:48]

Send that guy to Guishan. So he became, his name was Ling Yu, so they sent him to Guishan, so now he's known as Guishan. And then later, Jiaxian went to Guishan, and he became the tenzo, the head cook. under the teacher Guishan. So they had this nice interchange where Guishan asked the tenzo, Jiaxian, what will we eat in the hall today? And Jiaxian said, year after year, the same single spring. And Guishan said, With such a dharma, practice all affairs. And Josh Hong said, a dragon lodges in the phoenix nest. So he said this sometime before the story we have here.

[11:56]

But he said a dragon in a phoenix nest instead of a chicken. Now, I don't want to be too rigid about this, but I propose to you that a phoenix is a chicken who has realized herself. That when a chicken thoroughly studies being a chicken and settles completely into chicken-ness, chicken-dom, that the chicken becomes a dragon, that the that spontaneity comes to chickens when they really are chickens thoroughly. But not all chickens have been able to thoroughly settle into chicken nature, therefore some chickens have not yet become dragons. Human beings have basically the same thing. often go around like chickens, but we have trouble being chickens, therefore our spontaneity is not available to us because we resist our chicken nature.

[13:10]

Did I tell you a story about Marlon Brando? No? You heard it? Yeah, I heard it. Yeah, so when he was an acting student, the acting teacher said, okay, now you guys are all these students are going to be chicken, okay? You guys are all in your chicken coop, okay? You're roosting there in your chicken coop. Now you get word in some language that you understand, you get word that the atomic bomb is going to go off or you feel atomic bomb going off or whatever anyway. So what would you do? And all the students did various things. Marlon Browner just sat there. And in the interpretation of that story, he would say, what would a chicken do, really?

[14:20]

So he, he imagined, he dared to imagine not being able to imagine anything other than just to sit there. And then, you know, that, that was, I think that was, you know, maybe characteristic of his style that he, he's able to just sort of be a chicken. And then he's quite spontaneous sometimes. A lot of his movies, he just, just ad libs. I think it comes from his willingness to be this weird guy he is. But here, for some reason or other, the guy says he's a chicken in the phoenix nest. He's a... I don't know if he's saying you haven't yet settled into your chicken nature. Anyway, you are a chicken, and you're coming into the phoenix nest now. So go away. And again, as you know, usually Zen teachers use the rhetoric of irony.

[15:37]

So go away does not mean go away. It means stay. Still, he answers as though he'd been told to go away and says, I came to learn your way, teacher. I beg for a reception, and he gives them this reception. Before me, there's no you. Here, there's no me. And then the visitor shouts. And then again, when the teacher says something which you could understand as ironic or not, he says... Now, stop that. Don't be so crude and... Crude and... Crude and careless.

[16:48]

Don't be so crude and careless. And then he says this thing, he says, the moon, the clouds and the moon are the same. The valleys and the mountains are different. It's not that you can't cut off the tongues of everyone on earth, but what about you making me, a tongueless person, speak? And so he's quiet. And the teacher hits him. And he acquiesces. That's the story. What do you think? Any more on this that you want to bring up?

[17:50]

Do you see the red-tailed fish wagging Swishing south. Yes? I have a question and a commentary on that last . Your point is that you were submitted and the declaration of enmity was unceasing. The end of the commentary. It's at the end of the commentary before the verse? Oh yeah.

[18:56]

So this refers to another story. The school of Yaoshan is difficult to uphold. And then it refers to the story of Yun Yan sweeping the ground, case 21. It says that when Yun Yan swept the ground, the dust filled the skies. Okay, picture, so Yun Yan sweeping the ground, the dust fills the skies, and when Lu Pu acquiesced, enmity, declaration of enmity was unceasing. Goodness is being able to speak without a tongue, to use your fists without your hands. Even if stick and shout are employed together, this can only bring up half on the side. So the apprehension is like shutting up an atom, is that right?

[20:23]

What do you have after that? Do you have to uphold the path, this path? To uphold this path, it is entrusted to Tien Tung? Yes. So, again, Martha, what did you say? Well, I was just thinking that somehow the fist or the bone or the shell is still holding up an avenue. Well, look at the story of you and Yan sweeping the ground, okay? Here's this guy sweeping the ground. Do you want to say something before we discuss that? Do you want to put something to address?

[21:26]

You can address that particularly. Go ahead, address it. Well, just simply, I think that it's a parallel construction. It should be understood in the same sense that we would understand the statement that Yunyan sweeping the ground raised a cloud of dust. Yeah. It profoundly settled the dust. in that story. The dust was profoundly settled. And it's in some sense an ironic statement. And I think this has to be understood in the same way that he raises dust in the sense of creating a story, something is done, but it illustrates a principle of profound undustiness. Here, something is done that

[22:27]

has the appearance of opposition and enmity but profoundly it illustrates uh um emerging and unity what do you say It seems like you saw completely this unceasing, then it's, you talk about the chicken being just the chicken was then become the meat. Well, I agree with what Stuart said, you know. In the story of Yun Yan, he was sleeping on the ground, and his brother criticized him for being so busy. And Stuart's pointing out that his offering himself to be in the world of sleeping, where he could be criticized, gave chance for this nice story. And for someone to criticize him, and for him to respond, and for him to have this wonderful interchange, which helped people many years later.

[23:31]

However, there's another point that I think is being said here, is that when he, his sweeping the ground, in other words, his mind being activated, that it was, that when he was criticized, I mean, he was, he actually, his mind was very active. I mean, it was super active. it really did the dust when he was sleeping in the ground the dust filled the sky so in one sense it's ironic in another sense it's literal that he literally was creating a big windstorm by sweeping the ground and everybody maybe does that every time they think anything you create a galactic windstorm. And that's part of the reason why you can make a great settling, because all activity in the universe is connected to the activity of your mind.

[24:46]

There was a brother that was too busy. In his heart there wasn't really any storm. by saying too busy. Well, he said, he didn't deny. When he was accused of being busy, he didn't say, oh, no, I'm not. He said, you should know that there's also one who isn't busy. Maybe his brother did anyway, but we don't... We're getting a little off into this other story, but I propose that part of what's being said here is that it he didn't say, no, I'm not busy, or no, I'm not quite busy. He didn't speak to that. But actually, if his brother had said, he said, your brother said, you are too busy. He is really, really busy. I think that I propose to you that in a sense, what's being said here is, and I think the way to even look at Shakyamuni Buddha,

[25:57]

is that Shakyamuni Buddha's mind was as busy as things are busy. I mean, he contemplated the busyness of the universe. He watched how busy the mind really is, and that there's no limit to the busyness. And he didn't speak about limiting the busyness and then realizing the Dharma. he talked about how the busyness works. So in this case, it also says that when, at the moment he submitted, there was unceasing enmity. So if it's parallel to that, what does that mean? He was very intimate in the sense of enmity being present in ultimate closeness.

[27:13]

Is that parallel? Is that a parallel construction? Well, kind of like there was love within the cave, but there was busyness within stillness. There's stillness within the busy? It's like there's stillness within the busyness? Well, within the hate. Mm-hmm. It's not the enmity, it's the declaration of empathy. It actually is saying yes to your familiarity with Jesus, but not just of that. It actually is saying that's good. The declaration of the intimacy, of the enmity is being stated by the acquiescence. I like it. Think about that for a little while. When you first read this, what came to my mind and circulating is, what is it when the Buddha and the pillar merge?

[28:21]

It seemed like, I was trying to think of this in terms of this transcending, that there's a place where they're transcending, and maybe in order to have that kind of Buddha seal, to have that closeness, you have to have that meeting where they Emerging of different communities. We were speaking about the valleys and mountains are different, but I don't know if that actually reflects this, but you need to have one to reflect the other. Yes. It seems to me like an acknowledgement of the fundamental creation of self. And so we use, we can use in this case, acquiescence as a declaration of the creation of self and other.

[29:33]

We can use acquiescence as an expression that that declaration of self and other is unceasing. And declaring self and other is enmity. But also enmity is part and parcel of creating self and other, is part and parcel of creation. It's accepting. It's accepting the enmity. Well, you could say it's accepting the enmity, or you could say he uses acceptance as a declaration of the enmity. Either way, you could say the acquiescence is accepting the enmity, but as you point out, the acquiescence is said to be a declaration of the enmity. So maybe the best way to declare the enmity that exists in intimate relationships is, one of the nice ways to express it is through acquiescence.

[30:53]

The enmity doesn't need to be expressed once you see it. So you can use acquiescence to declare enmity. That seems very balancing to me. They tried the shouting and the hitting too, didn't they? It says that too. Even if the stick and shout are employed together, this can only bring up half. Now, does this have something to do with getting this tongueless person to speak? And does it have something to do with cutting out the tongues of everyone on earth?

[31:55]

How does that work? Where do the tongues get cut out? How are the tongues cut out? Now can some, where can those people speak? You want some of the tonguess people to speak? I'd like the tonguess people to speak. Maybe, maybe, maybe that's not me. What's the state of the market? There's no you in front of me, there's no me here. A person with tongues will speak.

[33:00]

Goes along like a... And no me, no me, no you before me, no me here. So what kind of realm is that? Is that the realm where the self and other aren't separated and there's no enmity? Is that what he's saying? Sure. It's exactly the opposite of what we seek. But then also Lu Pu shouts in response to him saying that, creating self and other again. Okay. The unity of self and other is one of the opposites, one of the contradictions that arises endlessly.

[34:21]

So I constantly pivoting those contradictions, you have the best chance of letting the bottom drop out. Did you say pivoting between those contradictions, you have the best chance of pivoting from one pole to the other. In this story, in all these stories, the irony which is used as a tool for teaching seems to be setting something up and then turning away from it. When the frequency gets fast enough, I think that the

[35:23]

The bottom drops out. The emptiness of both teachings becomes apparent in the... Not becomes apparent, but is expressed through this continual turning away. Turning away after setting something up? Yes. Did you just set something up? Yes. Can you turn away now? No. Reminds me of a story. This is about, what do you call it, this is about Lu Pu and Jia Xiang. Now, what kind of a person do you think that Lu Pu was?

[36:33]

Yes? Well, it seems like he's trying very hard to impress Jiaxian. Unless it's something to please him, but to impress him... You think he's a person who wants to impress Jiaxian? Maybe. I don't know. In other words, I'd like to know who you imagine Lu Pu to be. What's your imagination of him? Chris? All the fact that Luca was having a challenge in there was just a slight... Luca seems like he's got something under his belt. He's really going for it. He's doing what his teacher was always telling him what to do, is to really try out the world, to try out his teacher. So he's got, for me, it appears to be very confident in what he is. He's acquired the way, and he feels very strong about it, and it has... I think some kind of problem with letting go, that's the difference between trust and character.

[37:39]

So you think he's a person who's got... He's very strong. He's strong, got quite a bit of confidence, and you think he's holding on to it a little bit? Yeah. Uh-huh. And Cynthia? Um, I think I actually kind of identified with him. He felt pain, a lot of change, a lot. I think he's brash, and, um... sincere and straightforward and a little bit undisciplined. What areas is he lacking? Does he need more discipline in? Listening, watching. Paul? feeling the case that you can undercut a jab at the Rizal practice and Rizal tradition.

[38:43]

There are a couple of different ways that I read that. There's one in the first commentary that says, in case special use to handle an angle that transcends sectarianism and goes beyond formalities. What's it? Uh... Well, to me it's the first one. The first commentary, the seven sentences from page 155. And the other place where it says, even if you stick and shatter and pull it together, it can only drill out half the solid. In some sense, it's the demons that are very deft, trained in a certain way of practice and a certain way of expressing themselves. And I think there's, I don't know how much I understand what this takes me, but it's not. It's the same as picking one side and walking with the board. So you can't see the other side as you're walking. There's something about reading this and resisting some celebration of a world completely so impractical.

[39:55]

So here's this Rinzai event. who in his encounter with one of, it must have been a senior worker, who had that look at his group at the end of his practice, and in confronting a solar teacher, his method and his expediency helped shoot. it says, Jia Shan knew that as a long-time meditator, Lu Pu would surely carry out the true order of Linji. And hence, specially used the hammer and anvil that transcends sectarianism and goes beyond formalism. And after all, Lu Pu did shout, So that probably is part of what's going on here. But, and that's still this thing of enmity, right?

[41:01]

It's still an issue here. Enmity between styles. And is lupu maybe acquiescing? Has become appreciative? of this expression of clouds and moon are the same and mountains and valleys are different? Has he become, is he acquiescing to this now? Yes? I feel that the thing about the clouds are the same and the mountains are different is part of the sound of us speaking. Clouds, sometimes the vision of rocks wandering around, so it's like, The sameness of, in this case, it could be like the Vinji ritual, you know, the shabby and beautiful one. Yes. Then there's the mountain, which is sometimes teachers are referred to by the mountain man, or so they are settling onto a mountain.

[42:09]

So in some ways, they're all different. Once the Talmud's met space, they say something different than any other Talmud. And so he said, he's acquiescing, he's definitely meeting Dasha, but it will not stick to John 18. Tim? I think maybe this is just repeating what Titan said, but to say it in a slightly different way, perhaps the moon and the clouds is the same as sort of saying, Yeah, when you cling to that absolute, that absolute is sort of transcendent and the same. We don't have to worry about that absolute having some sort of changing nature to it. But how you show that absolute to different people depends on what particular river or what particular mountain is blocking their way. I'm thinking of the rivers and mountains as the obstacles that individuals face in being able to see that move in the clouds.

[43:13]

And to be able to make the tongueless man speak is to be able to say, I see which rivers and mountains are obstacles for you, and for me to teach you, I've got to not just rely on the same old absolute, but I've got to rely on the circumstances I'm given right now and be able to manifest that absolute for you. I still have a bee in my bonnet, though, which I hope your comments... can weave into that we that you can do it i want to have happen while you're commenting and that is i would like to create an image a fantasy of this guy named lupu i want to i want to like try to i think everybody's saying different things about lupu and i think we're all tuning in on him we've got this successor of Linji, right? He's an adept meditator. He's learned a certain style of practice which has been approved.

[44:15]

He's out testing himself. Various things have been said enough. So let's try to, as we talk about him, let's try to see if we can get a picture of him. I want to get a picture of him. We need a picture of him. Because we do have a picture of him. We all have a picture of him. And this is the guy we think this story's about. So what is the picture? Let's get clear about this picture, okay? So I think Michael was next. Could you open the window? Huh? Oh, thank you. You want the window open over you? It'd be fun. You want to see it? Can you feel something? So I don't know, maybe Michael was next on this ship. This is a little bit off, but I was curious as to whether, is there a comparable story of a Sodoma coming to a Rinzai master and acquiescing? Across the street? There are, yeah, let's see if I can think of one.

[45:19]

There are lots of stories of Sodomas coming to Rinzai teachers and acquiescing. actually we have this wonderful story in our tradition the Soto lineage in a sense died out at one point the Soto teacher couldn't find a successor and he had to give his Soto lineage to a Rinzai priest and then so Soto a monk had to come I guess he wasn't exactly a Soto monk but a monk had to come and receive the Soto tradition from a Rinzai person think of an example of a a Soto priest coming to a Rinzai teacher. Somebody's already in the Soto school. In recent history, a number of Soto priests went and studied with Rinzai teachers or studied koans with them. So they did that. I can't think of one right now where somebody actually whose act was in the Soto tradition.

[46:22]

I can think of people in the... Like the person who founded the Soto school studied, not exactly in the Rinzai tradition, but studied with the others. They often studied with the other side that led to the Rinzai. There's a lot of stories about both people. But after the Soto lineage is formed, Mark? It's interesting to me. The question is asked, how can you make a timeless man speak? And he said nothing after that. He said nothing. Yes. He doesn't speak. Yes. And he acquiesces. Yes. At that point, is he realizing himself? He's out there testing him. At that point, in the acquiescence, he's been sacrificed by different people, different ways.

[47:28]

He's actually ready to sit in the Phoenix Nest. How do you see him? How do you see him in his silence? What do you see there? Yes? I have a sense of him not having found his own voice. Yes. especially in the reason of when he shouted and he says, I'll stop and don't get through with Carol. He used something familiar to him in the shout. And it was in his tradition. And the actress was saying, bowing to the teacher and not speaking. But in me, there's this... I... I see him as a young man not having or but some of them have quite found his own voice. I agree with Martha and much of what's been said.

[48:37]

I think that one, my sense of love to the The adjective that I would add to the description that's already been cumulatively offered is he's very brilliant and thoroughgoing but hasn't been able to take the step beyond his teacher and for that reason can't because he hasn't been able to take a step beyond, also has not been able to fully realize his teacher's method. I think that too much can be made of enmity between the schools. And I think that that's partly the meaning of Jia Shan hitting him. and is acquiescing at that point because that's a demonstration of the Lin Xi methodology.

[49:47]

And it isn't in sect. What Jia Shan is demonstrating is understanding beyond sectarianism. It isn't in this method or in that method. by taking him on this route, I think that the initial impression when he says, what do you do to make the tongueless man speak? At that point, Luobu is speechless, but he doesn't yet acquiesce. He stopped, but he doesn't acquiesce. But after he struck, which is a demonstration of his own teacher's method, In recognizing that, that is beyond sect. And that's the point at which he acquiesces. Because he realizes something that is beyond his teacher's method. He's able to take the step. So you picture him as a little bit different person after being hit than before being hit.

[50:55]

Doesn't it say in here that Lu Pu only knew... about the sharpness of the awl? The pointedness of the awl, but not the sharpness of the chittle. Yeah, the pointedness of the awl, but not the sharpness of the chittle, right. And earlier it says, who dares to stand up to the point of the arrow of the Moongji school? I see him as being very fierce and holding completely to the absolute. Right. Holding to the absolute. In the earlier story, he just leaves and his teacher says, where are you going? And he says, south. He got the line and they shout and hit each other and then he leaves. I don't know. It was some guy. It was some guy. But Stuart's drawing a picture.

[52:02]

I think we're getting a picture of him from some people that he was very brilliant and knew about the point of the awl. You know, awl is a puncturing type of tool. And sometimes in earlier stories, they've spoken of some of our earlier teachers in this book, of people who have worn-out alls. The alls are just kind of worn out. They have no point anymore. What's his name? I think Rikyu also. His name, the name Rikyu, I believe, has the allusion to being a worn-out all. You know that? Yeah. So there's something, you know, there's something, the Soto school is a little bit more, you know, kind of like worn out and kind of like in ruins, sort of, you know.

[53:10]

We had a school once, but then we lost it. And then the Rinzai school came to visit us, so we wanted to bring them down too. And I think there's a point there that the way you free the Rinzai person from his brilliant school is to use his school on him so he can experience his own school being used on himself. So it's not so much maybe that it's Soto versus Rinzai, but the Soto person helps the Rinzai person and the Soto person go beyond Soto and Rinzai. Now, this is our picture, getting a picture of Drupu. I think we also should get a better picture of Joshan, try to figure out who he is. Yes? Well, the part that intrigues me is that Joshan sent him this letter. He found out that he was up in this shack. Did we talk about this when he was here? He was up in this shack that he built for himself for a year, and Joshan found out about that and sent this letter to him,

[54:14]

And I see that Luke, who was a little bit lonely or something, he extends his hands to the guy bringing the letter in a gesture of seeking. which the monk didn't expect, I don't think, because he was speechless. And then he returned in three days, just like Jiaxuan said. What's our image of, you know, we're not maybe familiarized with the behavior of a monk in the Tang Dynasty, what the gesture of seeking, but what do you think the gesture of seeking was? He's sitting there and this person's coming to visit. What's the gesture of seeking? Yes? My image of that was that the attendant came and gave him the letter, he took the letter and put it away, and then reached out as if he wanted something, you know, as if he were expecting something to be given. Do you think one hand? No, actually I saw it with two hands. Two hands? Do you think he kind of like reached for the monk's body or, you know, how?

[55:17]

I think that was more like that. He thought more like this? You thought more like this? Yeah. Reaching out for something. Uh-huh. What more do you see there when he's reaching out? Facial expression. What kind of a facial expression? Longing. Longing. Scared that monk away. Do people see him longing? A longing expression on his face? Or not? What do you see on this guy's face? Who is this guy? This brilliant guy. But also it's interesting that he was living up there for a year without going to see Joshan. You know, surely he knew. It is interesting, isn't it? There was this master there. It's quite interesting. And he hung out for a year without making his presence.

[56:20]

I mean, without going to him. So it seems like he was kind of going... doing this thing by himself. He didn't go until he received another. Where would Mount Jau be in relation to where Joshua was? Three days walk? Or right up, right like up on Flag Rock? Is it the same Jau? You've seen Jau, didn't you? I don't know, but I'll bet it is. Let's assume it is. No, I guess to me he feels really arrogant, Luke Howe does. And there's another line later on that says he's used to vinegar and once he tastes it, you know, how sour it is, at this he acquiesces.

[57:29]

So it seems to me that he acquiesces at something familiar. And I guess I don't have this internal feeling. that anything new happened for him in this encounter, except that he got something familiar. It's kind of like, There's part of this that reminds me of if somebody's hysterical and you try to break into where they are and you can't, then you come with a slap, and that sometimes does it. But it doesn't mean that the person learned something new. It means that they return to a different state, maybe a familiar one. And I guess just my own feeling is I don't feel the movement. It doesn't mean it isn't there. So you see him as arrogant throughout and just sort of got his usual signal and did what he usually does when he gets that signal. Well, this is a different point of view here. I want to know what was in that letter.

[58:33]

Well, we can also... When we start to try to find out who Joshon is, we can also write that letter. Janet? I think he's a Sagittarian. I think he's fiery and he's a risk taker. You know, he was able to sit on the earthquake here, he didn't have to come back. Do I know? Yes, I do. He's also an adept meditator, so he can sit in the mountains for a year. Lloyd? Well, to me, there's several things in it. And the one thing which has just been alluded to, he was nearby, or somewhere nearby, for a year, and never dropped in to say hello. And when he did come by,

[59:39]

He did it rudely, even though he was biting. I mean, they make a big point. They say he stood right in front of him without bowing. And then the shouting later feels like somebody who is really tight and has to show that he knows. Maybe somebody that really knows could walk up politely and bow and express that he knows in the politeness of the body. He wouldn't be forced to adopt tactics just to show that he knows. And that, to me, is the place where he's stuck. Because he feels he has to do that, or he did it. And then he proceeded afterward. If he really were comfortable, truly comfortable inside, he wouldn't have to challenge the other guy.

[60:43]

He could just walk and look him in the eye and say, hello. You mean nobody that understands could be rude? You mean nobody that understands could be rude? Can't we have somebody be rude? If there's a cause for it, perhaps. Or maybe the cause is that that's the way he is that day. He had this great talk. It wasn't so boring. That's right. And the important thing is that he was this way, so we have the story. But if he didn't have that necessity to carry all that baggage with him, then it would be a disaster. Paul? I think that he stayed in the whole cottage for a year. without being polite in introducing himself in the cycle of which he was going to be staying nearby. He became, in his polite character, because he had a character.

[61:43]

I think this was the way he was, he had expressed himself. And I think he tried, once he was confronted with something he couldn't deal with, he tried to find different entries or different ways in. I don't think there was an adaptation that maybe was very important. After he was greeted with being likened to a chicken. He was still trying to find a way in. I think that was his nature. I don't think he was conceived of as being polite or not polite. He was a polite person. When he came to the neighborhood, he would introduce himself as a stand-up hotel. Probably would have brought some presents, too. I see a lot of active people here, and then some people aren't saying. What about the other people? The other ones haven't talked yet. You think you haven't talked enough? You don't talk much. Go ahead. I don't think it's a question of rudeness or politeness. I feel like it's hard to try to look at this without putting our own cultural stuff on it, which I think is not accurate in this situation.

[62:46]

And particularly since he got a letter, so they already kind of knew each other. I mean, there had already been this communication. He received a letter, and he sent back a message. So they had already met. So I feel like he just came and presented himself. Yeah, I just got this image of Jia Shan. I just got this fantasy about Jia Shan that he was looking forward to this guy coming. But he sent a letter. His attendant had come back saying, this is an unusual person up here. And kind of like, hmm. And what was the look on his face? How did he look again when he reached out his hand? What was the look on his face? Sick. What did the... Is that what the... Is that what the tenant said? He said he made a gesture of seeking, sir. I don't know if he was sincere in that or it was kind of like just a display.

[63:47]

It could have been a display. Well... I just, that came to mind. Is irony sincere? You know, is a display, can a display, some people, I mean, is a peacock sincere? Ask a peahen. A peacock has no choice. Yeah, a part of what, one of the agendas here, one of the proposals is that this guy had no choice. that he had to be the way he was. And so part of my question in this practice is do you really have any choice? I mean, some of us maybe have no choice but to be rude. I mean, we just have to be. And others have no choice but to be polite. I mean, that's just the way they are. They are polite.

[64:48]

And they can't really not be polite. on certain occasions anyway, they really must be. It's just really, that's the way it is. There's no, you know, they are, what do you call it? They are puppets of cause and effect and they have to be polite. Can it be that this guy really was that way and that he's deluded too? And can you be brilliantly rude? Of course you can't. There are people like that. Can you be brilliantly polite? Of course. Transcendently polite, transcendently rude. Yes. But then, that's not the end of the story. Then it's time to interact from what you have to be, who you are. And now, you know, what's Josh I'm like? Well, who is he meeting? Some quiet people speak, please.

[65:54]

Let's come on. The time's running out. This is your big chance. Pam. Well, this is in two rooms over here, you know, Sean, and what is it that's being given up? And I see that it's because Nico comes in as a certain person and needs a different way, a different person, a different way of being. So there's something that's given up from this person to the other person that's given over. And more than one, it's that. What's given up? Any ideas of what's given up? Maybe he gave up his clinging to who he thought he was. He gave up his clinging to who he thought he was? That's a nice thing to give up. I just want to see him as a brilliant student, but still in that student head.

[66:58]

He's sort of on the line of like, Everybody's basically showing me, my teacher's showing me that I'm a great student, like I've really done well as a student, but he hasn't made the switch yet to thinking of himself as a teacher. So he kind of goes up and sits right on the summit of a great teacher's mountain and sort of says, Okay, now, excuse me, so you imagine him now to be, tell us more about what he's like, that he hasn't yet imagined himself as a teacher. Well, he's thinking of himself as like, if I thought this great teacher, like right down there in the valley, I look down at his monastery every day, I've got something to teach me. I go down there learning from him, but I've learned what I can learn as a student. It's maybe the way he's thinking. And when somebody comes with a letter, he's like, what do you got to show me? Well, how do you square that with him going down and saying, I've come from afar to learn you, to get your way, teacher? What about that? Well, I think that that only happened after Jia Shan had invited him down.

[68:04]

And so then, now it's a chance to say, oh, okay, this teacher... Did Jia Shan invite him down? Is that what the letter said? Well, I just assumed that if Jia Shan made a contact with this guy sitting right next door, that that was sort of like... some kind of concept that we could be invited for the concept. What did the letter say? Go away. No, he says... I think we have to find out what this is. We need to find out what the letter says. He says, if the monk reads the letter, he will surely come within three days. Pardon? Joshun says, if this monk reads the letter, he will surely come within three days. Yeah, so what did the letter say? It said, go away, get out of it. What did the letter say? I think we should all write a letter and bring it next week. Mark? When he was sitting up there, I had first a question. When he was sitting up there, was he setting something up? And that's the question.

[69:09]

Well, what do you think? What was he doing up there? Was he setting something up? We don't know. We don't know what he was doing, but let's try on... Huh? He was preparing for this interview. Right. He was waiting to be invited. What was he doing up there waiting to be... How do you wait to be invited for a year? How do you do that? How do you do that for a year? What's that like? Huh? And that's a good way to wait, huh? Yeah. He was constantly propounding the Dharma at the Linji school. Yeah, I think he was too. I think he was propounding the Dharma at the Linji school, the Linji school way of waiting on that mountain and practicing on that mountain. His school, right? That's what I imagine. I can imagine that. But then when the messenger brought the letter, he hid it. to bring it back to you.

[70:16]

And that's very significant. I'm telling you about the end of the first paragraph there. They don't get to die. Send his hands in a gesture of seeking that not the speech was. So he sat down first. Well, but you still get the guy. From a sitting position. A sitting, a sitting hit. Those are the worst. I just thought of something, you know, everybody seems to be, is having a story in terms of why Luke Brooks can't come to Ja, [...] Ja. And we hope there's nothing in a sense, if countless man and Josh on trust to get him get something.

[71:24]

And we'll pull out the app in some sense. Thank you. And so yeah, there's a happy ending. We have a happy ending and we have grace. It's a very sad story. I think the fact that Liverpool is like up on the hill, the whole monastery kind of knows about this guy. He's been there for years. It's causing a kind of disturbance among the students. You know, so it has to kind of... from the situation, because it's... I believe in my interpretation of a very strong character, very strong and confident in what he's doing... Does anybody have any doubt about this guy being strong? We all agree he's strong, right? He's strong. He's a disciple of Linji, and we know he's strong.

[72:27]

Huh? You think he's not strong? No, no, I'm not doubting that. He's strong. He's strong in some sense. He's strong. He's strong. He can take care of himself. He can travel around. He can live in the hut. And probably people have heard about him and probably they're aware of his presence. Just like we would be aware if somebody set up camp up there. They can't do it in the Hope Cottage, however. It's locked. But there are some other sheds up there. some abandoned little sheds that they could set up housing in, and I think the forest service might leave him alone, and we would too, but as we walked by the path, we would notice him in there, you know. You know, there's one on the way to the Hope Cottage, you know, that kind of broken-down thing? It used to be much nicer before the weeds grew up through it. I used to go and sit in that place. It's got a plastic roof, and on a sunny day, it's very nice in there. What? Yeah. But before, it had a little wooden platform. It was like a... It was like it had a wooden platform and a little corral outside of it.

[73:30]

It was a couch, but it had also a wooden floor in it with a covering. And it was really nice there before the weeds grew up, and I used to sit in there. He took up residence in that place for a while. So we got that picture. Now, what else about this guy? Is he really coming? Does he really want to seek the teaching? Did he go study with Linji just to be strong, or did he actually want to study with Linji? Did he actually submit to Linji? Did he actually love Linji? Jiesha? You mean Jiesha? No, I mean Linji. He studied with Linji for... He was... Lupu studied with Linji. I'm talking about Lupu, right? Lupu studied with Linji. He was his attendant for a long time. Can you imagine what it would be like to be Linji's attendant? Think about it. Think about it. It'd be like living next to a constant explosion. He did that. He attended this teacher for a long time, and then he left. What is it, post-traumatic stress syndrome?

[74:38]

Because there's a question here about whether he's going to even read the letter. I mean, if he's been up there for a year without communicating with anyone... And I feel that Josh is extremely compassionate. He cares about this guy. He wants to be saved. But he wonders. He may not even read the letter. He may not come. In that case, there's no hope for him. So there's some question about what he's doing up there all by himself for a year and whether he's going to be able to come back. I think he's going to be just waiting for that letter. Yeah. It's a challenge, you know. And he sort of won that first round by waiting longer than Jiaxuan. You wanted to teach me before I was willing to come down and get the teaching from you. I was wondering, actually that was a transcendent rudeness.

[75:38]

I was wondering whether he was suffering from a transcendent imitation. And that in the letter, Jishan touched that. And that's what got it down there. Are you really you? Or are you just another Molly or Lindsay? Are you just this person? Now, if he sent that letter, how would you feel about him coming down and doing what he did? In that case... Then, then, then, you know, yeah, I really, I really, I think, I find it useful to try to imagine what, you know, for us to imagine what this person is and then see if we, if we can, you know, if this picture we have, if we then, if we then can basically put ourselves into that picture and help each other enter that picture.

[76:42]

Okay. Yeah. Yeah, but I want us to get the picture first so we can help. I think we should, I think I'd like us to, I'd like, I don't want to force any particular picture. I don't care what the picture is, but I would like us to get a clear picture of what we think this is, of who we think he is, and a clear picture of Jaishan. And then put ourselves into the picture. Okay? And then watch how the picture works. But if one person tries it on and we don't know what they have in their mind, or if they try it on and tell us, and even if we don't agree, we know what they have in their mind, that would be okay too. Martha? Do you think that Linji was cheeky also? He hit people. He hit people that came just to deliver letters. Well, maybe we have to take a step back and go back to Linji.

[77:56]

That's what UPS stands for, upside the head. Actually, I wanted to make mention of that. I don't think that in this context that he's just being displayed as a rude fellow. I mean, the Book of Serenity seems full of praise for Lingxi. There are stories about Lingxi. that seems to suggest that he is a great vehicle of the great vessel of the Dharma. Looking at it culturally, you know, in our culture, this guy would be rude. In Chinese culture, he's impossible.

[78:58]

Possibly rude. Yeah. It isn't even rudeness. It goes far beyond rudeness. Chinese culture, particularly at that time, was built on very elaborate etiquette and ritual. And all of these people are, like , who was a well-known teacher. He traveled in very, he was, I think, probably royally appointed and traveled in very high circumstances. And for him to carry on as he did, and for his students to carry on as they did, went far beyond any concept we have at Leibniz. I mean, these people were just astonishingly crazy. And I think that we should understand it not as, I mean, rudeness doesn't do justice. And it goes far beyond an issue of rudeness. In order to behave like this and to be accepted as a human being in that society, there had to be a clear understanding all the way around that what this was about was not manners, but some matter that went far beyond politeness.

[80:11]

that the issue of concern here was not courtesy, you know, was not open to questions about courtesy. And I think we have to understand it about Linji, and in some sense, if we take somebody seriously as a student, we have to understand that seriously about the student. That's right, except that the issue which has nothing to do with courtesy should be in union with ritualized courtesy. So the issue of wisdom is one side, but then we set up, Chinese culture had set up rituals of behavior, and Buddhism also had rituals of behavior. Those rituals or those forms are in union and playing with this interaction. So that's part of what's going on here. So I... It's getting close to nine, so I think what I would suggest is a few things. One is, you might just get a little bit more feeling for Lupu.

[81:16]

Look at case 41. Because there you'll see him later. You know, you can see him, as a matter of fact, as he's about to die. And also... You know look back at what he said and you know I just look review what he said in the last case case 34 and Look at what he said in case 32 But loop was said something in a commentary of 33 and 34 and 10 and 20 so you get some more background on but particularly easiest thing would be to look at 41 now I Nobody says that... Linji has this style, right? Of shouting and hitting. Nobody says that Linji only knew the point of the awl and didn't know about the sharpness of the chisel. They didn't say it about him. His disciple, they're saying, at least at the beginning of this story, only knew about the sharpness of the awl, didn't know about the...

[82:21]

the pointedness of the awl, but didn't know about the sharpness of the chisel. He does not yet understand about the usefulness of a worn-out awl, which I think may be Jia Shan showing you how useful not having a tool that doesn't work is. Jia Shan is showing how useful it is to have a tool that doesn't work anymore. This guy has a tool which works. He knows about this, but that's all he knows about at the beginning of the story. He's got a thing that works. His teacher, however, has not been criticized for having that limited understanding. But a lot of people, I think, misunderstand the Linji tradition only in terms of that sharpness. They don't understand that the Linji tradition also includes in its enlightenment, you know, dullness. Jaishan is trying to compliment this guy in some way. So I think that if there's some way you can get more into the characters and get a clearer vision of these two people, that would be useful for us to understand what's involved in the transmission of compassion.

[83:43]

and enacting a vision so you can see what's going on here. Yes. It seems like there's been an assumption that Josh Owen is in combat with Lopu. But I think that he's doing nothing but giving the ultimate compliment to Linji in this whole thing. I think that he's saying, Linji's fantastic, and you're fantastic, and so I'm going to hit you. I mean, what better expression of that would Linji have? Why is there an assumption that this is some kind of put-down? I think it's the ultimate compliment to Linji. Do people see a put-down here? I didn't hear that vision yet. Well, I interpreted that from people saying this is a young student coming around, kind of flogging Lindsey's sail. I think that's part of the vision that seems to be emerging, is that he's not a young student, he's a young teacher, he's a young graduate of Lindsey's training school.

[84:56]

We're seeing that. He's very brilliant. But he's being said that his understanding is not rounded out yet. He only knows one side of this famous story. He only knows about the stick and the shout in terms of sharpness. We are sort of evoking that image. But I don't feel people putting him down. I think people are, you know, excuse me for saying so, but he's kind of like the Dallas Cowboys. Wow. What does that mean? Well, the Dallas Cowboys are a very powerful team, you know, right now. They just, they're very powerful. Huh? They're young, they're young, cocky, and powerful. And they just, you know, they're just very powerful. They just sort of mow down, they mow things down, you know, they mow down powerful teams. But they, you know, they lack magic, you know. They're mechanical. Okay.

[86:00]

It's nine o'clock. It's nine o'clock already. We'll see you next week, but I'll say this right now. That was not a magical game yesterday. I didn't see the magic. It was brutal. It was mechanical. It was like, you know, it was fascist. You know? That's Dallas. That's... Now, come on. But I think the game can be about magic. This game could have been about Lu Pu mowing somebody down. He could have mowed... The first part, he mowed that monk down. He could mow down... He can cut the tongues out of everybody on Earth. This guy can. He's a powerful... yogi. But this story is about something more than that. This story is about something magical. This story is about somebody who's very powerful, who doesn't have to lose ever. Acquiesced. There's something very lovely here. Now, the lovely, it could be a lovely sad story.

[87:00]

It could be a lovely, wonderful, happy story. What story is this? What's it about? You know, what got learned here or didn't learn? Was there movement or not? Who are the people? What happened? Nobody knows what happened any more than you do. But I think we need to work a little bit, and we can help each other. I think try to figure out what happened, who these people are, what makes sense, how you can get into these characters. And once you understand the characters, the story will, then you got the characters, you got the script. So then what is the story about, and what happened? And is this good news? Can you learn something about your life from this? And so on. But we can also discuss Dallas Cowboys if necessary. Maybe it would be better to do over the... No, but not after 9 o'clock. May it have all its intention.

[87:57]

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