Do you have copies of case 42? Yes? No? OK. Case 41. You know, at one point Lu Pu said, you must directly realize the source outside the teaching. Don't grasp the principle within words. And then when he was about to die, he said, if you say this is so, you add a head on top of your head. If you say this is not so, you cut your head off to seek life.

[01:02]

and so on. And so, what did you learn from this, from the case? From this case. That's good. And then the verse says, The bait is clouds, the hook the moon, fishing in a clear pond. In ancient, I used a rainbow as a pole, a new moon as a hook, and a piece of cloud as bait. In clear waters, one can pull the boat of compassion. What does that mean to you?

[02:07]

What does it mean to use a rainbow as a pole? It means you can't use anything. And what does it mean to not use a rainbow? Pardon? To limit oneself. To limit oneself, uh-huh. How does the rainbow limit you? And how do you limit the rainbow? When I think of a rainbow, I think of using, it's a combination of rain and sun together.

[03:12]

Rain and sun together. It's a dependently co-risen event. Right. It's like using something that comes together that's out of your... That's good, but you missed one thing. You have to see it. The wonderful thing about rainbows is that they appear in nature, they're natural phenomena, but they require our eyes. And they change when we move. The rainbow is directly transformed by our movement and our attention. If we don't pay attention to the rainbow... And not only that, but the way we pay attention and where we are and how we move changes the rainbow. And we all see different rainbows. And the rainbow moves and changes according to each of us. This is a good kind of pole to use. Yes. Yes. So if you see a fishing pole in the shape of a rainbow, usually there's something caught on the other end.

[04:22]

And a rainbow unites the above and the below. And the result of this bridging is color. And if you don't pay attention, the rainbow disappears. It appears and disappears by our attention. And it combines heaven and earth. So you can use a pole like this to fish when the water's clear. OK. Now, what does it mean? Now, you know about the duck, the wooden duck that you use in rough water. But the instruction in the commentary says that follow the flow through the ravine straits.

[05:30]

Don't get stuck with a wooden goose. The different explanations given in various places are hardly reliable. None is as good as these meditation instructions for the meaning of the wooden goose. What does that mean, not to get stuck with the wooden goose? Could it mean not to get stuck and follow something to show you the way? Yes. That's what it could mean. Yes? Not to worry even if... Not to what? Not to worry even if the wind just goes over rapids that maybe would indicate that both compassion couldn't make it.

[06:31]

That it would seem too rough by virtue of passing through the wind views. Uh-huh. Right. In other words, don't use the wooden goose. So what should you use? The boat of compassion. Yeah, but what do you use in the boat of compassion? Pain. Huh? Pain. Pain, uh-huh. Is pain a rainbow? Is pain a rainbow? Can you fish with, can you fish use paint as a, as a, as pulp? Is there something you can't use? You can't use, you can't use a rainbow. You can't use a rainbow. That's what you should use.

[07:36]

You should use something you can't use. You can't use a rainbow to fish. Can you? You tell me. This is a review. Let's see if we can go on. You can use being in the present moment without getting attached to expectations and future plans like the wooden goose. But can you use that? You can't use that. Can it use you? Well, you know, if it uses you, is it separate from you? It can realize you. It can confirm you. Yes? How about giving up the idea of usage? Yeah, how about that? Because the Wooden Goose, of course, is about getting to safe waters and kind of not going into dangerous situations, not drowning.

[08:44]

deep waters and dangerous waters so it's a limited way in a big stream why not indulge in the entire stream even though it might be dangerous which is of no use perhaps well I I think I will go I mean I'll be happy to go along with no use part The other part sounds like, you know, I don't know, you're adding something, I think. It's okay to do what you said, but it's also okay to go through any part of the stream, the scary part, the safe part, whatever. The point is not to use anything. Not to get stuck with the wooden duck or the wooden goose. That also includes, one way to get stuck with the wooden goose is to not use it.

[09:54]

You get stuck with it that way. To not look at it when it goes down ahead of you. That would be stuck. To figure out what to do by looking at it could be getting stuck. The point is, are you using the wooden duck? Are you using the meditation instruction? If you are, you're stuck. And if you have tried to avoid meditation instruction, like don't count your breath or don't pay attention to your posture because you're afraid to use meditation on your breath or afraid to use concentration on your posture, and then try to not do it, then you're also stuck. Then you're cutting your head off to protect yourself from getting stuck using some meditation device. So some Zen teachers let people use

[11:10]

Meditation devices, actually give them meditation devices because if you don't give them meditation devices, they can use not having a meditation device. So it's maybe better if you're going to use something to give people something to use, rather than give them not something to use. But other Zen teachers won't give anything to use. So what else did you learn in case 41? What about this guy who said he was the only pure one who wrote that song, Leaving Clamor?

[12:18]

And he said he was the only one who was sober and he jumped in the river. What did they bring that up for? The sober man was very careful. He was very careful, yes. So careful. He was so careful that he drowned. He threw himself in the river. He was very pure, right? He thought of himself as very pure. What did they bring that up for here? George?

[13:20]

I felt that the sober man was an illusion beyond song, but not to say that he thought of himself as being pure because he remained outside of the transmission, but he thought of himself as being pure because he knew that he had not reached the state where he was qualified for the transmission, and so he denied himself the transmission. That's what I thought the reference to sober man was. So you're thinking again that in order to be pure and honest, he refused the transmission because he realized, he felt that he wasn't qualified. And that was his kind of like, his soberness, right? He wasn't intoxicated by the prospect of becoming a successor. Is that relevant to anything?

[14:33]

Anybody can relate to that? Does that have any meaning to you? Does that have anything to do with fishing with a rainbow? I don't know if this really connects, but I thought about that once, just now when you asked that story about the one who goes fishing with a straight hook are the ones that turn away from life. There's some image in there. I actually didn't know what to make of that line. You didn't know what to make of what line? About the sober person. It's dying while we're alive. Isn't that one of those two guys who died, who starved to death on the mountain?

[15:46]

So do people feel that the reason why he's bringing this case of extreme purity up is that he's alluding to the elder Yansong who wouldn't understand, who really wouldn't understand? Is that how you feel? Yeah. It seems like it also referred to, um, Lupu. You know, Lupu had a certain idea of what he wanted. You know, the song to do things a certain way. But it was, uh, a rigid idea. Just like the silver man thought he was the only one. And he ended up drowning. So, I think part of what you... I would agree with some part of what you just said.

[16:55]

That is that... Yeah. That the story, the illusion is to someone who holds fast to an idea. That's what the story of the poet who threw himself in the river is about on one level. I saw the references to Jan Song's resolute expression of emptiness throughout the dialogues that he had with his teacher. And the comment being one on the danger of having an idea

[18:07]

about emptiness or letting that be an idea having a view of it I don't know where this came from, but here's a cartoon.

[19:39]

It has two ducks talking to each other. And there's a third duck next to the two ducks that are talking. and uh the one duck says all right so he's wooden but you know they say the same thing about al gore And then somebody wrote on this thing, I think it was me, the various explanations given in different places are hardly reliable. None are as good as these instructions about understanding the meaning of the wooden goose, the wooden duck.

[20:47]

What instructions? Don't use it. Don't use anything. And then on the other side of this cartoon is another cartoon. It has a woman looking at a man across the room, sitting in easy chairs, and she says, she's looking at him and she says, he's reading the newspaper, and she says, come a little bit closer. You're my kind of man. Funny. Ready? Look at her face. Whose face is that? Hey, there's a fish in there. Do you see that? Yeah. That's good. There's a fish in this picture.

[21:52]

Can you see it? Can you see the fish? Right in the middle. It's very tiny. It's in the bowl there in the middle. It's a tiny little fish and she can see it. That's very good. Just like a little girl who's learning about fishes. That's right. You're everywhere now. So can you put this into practice? This instruction? Yes? The sentence, the different explanations given in various places are hardly reliable. Yes. Isn't that an explanation given in various points? No, it's given right now. What about wooden dishes? And also, it's not saying that that's reliable, that instruction. If you, how will you act on the instruction that the various instructions are hardly reliable?

[22:57]

How will you, how will you deal with that instruction? You won't make that one reliable, will you? No. So then, now that that one's not, now that you're not making that one reliable, the other, the various other ones in different places that you've heard, those, those aren't. But not reliable also means, what does it mean besides, what does not reliable also mean besides not hardly reliable? What does that mean? What does hardly reliable mean? It means partially reliable. Yes, it means might be reliable. If you say not reliable, then you've got another reliable one, if you hold that. So how will you use the instructions given in various places at different times and so on? How will you use them? However you can. However you can? Yes, of course. But that's what you've just been told not to do. How will you use them? Come on. Do you?

[23:59]

Don't use them. That's how you use them. Don't use them. But if you think don't use them means that you don't use them, that's not what it means, right? I'm teaching a class to high school kids. I wish they were here because they wanted to hear about Zen paradox. Do you understand that, don't you? Who said that? Tell us about how you don't understand it. Well, I think the moon is enough. You think the moon is enough? This is a new moon tonight. It's dark. It's dark. It seems like we're always putting everything we do, we put out a wooden deck first.

[25:01]

It seems like we don't act without thinking about it first. But it happens at all sorts of levels. In other words, if we go to pour a cup of tea, it's almost like we pour it in our mind first, and then we pour a cup of tea. But it happens at that level of thinking, well, I pour a cup of tea and then you pour the tea. But we also do it totally unconsciously at the same time. There's also another level of putting out the duck that we're not even aware. I had a funny thing happen to me. I used to work in a precious metal foundry and I used to work with silver bars. And I used to pick them up there that had these silver bars. One day I went to pick up a large gold bar And I felt like it was nailed to the table, because gold is actually twice as heavy as silver. And then when I looked down, I realized, oh, it's a gold bar.

[26:02]

I could pick it right up. But it seemed like, without even realizing it, I figured out how heavy it was. So I told my muscles how much force to use. So even without even being consciously aware, I'm putting out a wooden duck also. So it's like, you know, you're putting our wooden duck at the conscious level, but also there's a part of us that puts it out at the unconscious level also. So it's almost like, how do we even act? You know, we're, you know, hang on. So how do we, how, how do we, um, to this deeply ingrained habit. What's the perfect response to noticing the function of this habit? You just notice.

[27:08]

Is that a possible response, to notice that, since you did it? Well, I don't know what to do with that noticing. But before you do anything with the noticing, what does that noticing do for you? Well, it just makes me aware of what I am. Uh-huh. See, my point is that I don't know if we can take a step.

[28:23]

I don't know if we can walk without putting on a duck. Yeah, right. That's what I mean. I got that. Did everybody else get that too, that he doesn't know if he can take a step without putting on a duck? So now that you, now that we're in that world, how shall we live? Don't use the duck. Hmm? Don't use the duck. Don't use the duck. Right. Right. I would have to learn to walk in a whole new way. Literally. But would that new way be to try to stop yourself from your deep habit, do you think? Or would that new way start with admitting that you have this deep habit? I don't know, I'm trying to put it out of a wooden deck to see what it's like.

[29:24]

I just put myself doing it, trying to imagine it. I don't know, it's worth a try though, I mean, whatever it is. I mean, it would be something worth trying. Well, how about right now? What are you going to try to do now? Well, actually I thought. No, that would be, that's just another wooden duck. Did you see the wooden duck? I saw a wooden duck. Did you see it? That duck I missed. After I pointed it out, did you notice it? No, that's the duck I missed. Wooden duck means not just something that happened, but something that you were going to use for some purpose. You know, you were going to use this wooden duck to protect you from falling into using wooden ducks, right?

[30:28]

So then you... That's what the wooden duck is. Wooden duck is to protect you from, in this case, now that we're in this class, you're trying to think of a wooden duck to protect you from using wooden ducks, right? You notice that you're using wooden ducks all the time. So then you came up with this idea, I have to live a new way, right? And you thought the new way would be to not, what did you say, not what? Act without thinking. So that was going to be your new wooden duck. Acting without thinking would protect you from this thinking you do. You're always thinking of how to find a wooden duck to get you through things, right? So now you thought, this is a new, improved wooden duck. But that's a wooden duck too, right? But did you see that? I saw it. And I can think of wooden ducks like that too. You did it for me, but same. So now we're back to seeing a wooden duck. In other words, you're back to the place you said you were before.

[31:31]

You said you were constantly doing it, and then you thought, well, maybe I won't do it. Maybe I'll take a break from what I'm constantly doing. Maybe I'll be a new person and stop doing what I've been doing all this while. And what did you think of? Exactly the same thing, which is exactly what you said, namely you're constantly doing it. You can't get out of it like that, because trying to get out of it is just another wooden duck. And the more you realize how treacherous the mind is to create this situation, the more you look for something that'll get you through it so you can avoid the crashing around that happens from using this wooden duck to guide you. Hmm? Use a rainbow. Now, what's a rainbow? A rainbow is to catch yourself at using a wooden duck. There's no use in it. You can't use catching yourself. As soon as you catch yourself, you want to use it. You want to be like, well, what's that going to do for me now that I caught it? Then you switch back into wooden duck. But when you first see it, that's like a rainbow because that thing doesn't exist unless you notice it.

[32:34]

The function, the using the wooden duck is not the rainbow. You can't use that. You can use the using of the wooden duck. That's what it is. It's in the realm of you using stuff. It's not in the realm of what's happening. What's happening is, you think you're using that. The rainbow is to catch yourself at that. So to use that, you can't get any use out of just noticing that you're on this trip. And then we want to think, well, what does this do for me? What does it do for me to catch myself at this? Well, as it turns out, it purifies you on the spot. But it purifies you means you don't get anything out of it. It means it not only doesn't improve you, it doesn't depreciate you, it doesn't do anything to you. Plus it also, because it doesn't do that and you're living with that, it purifies you of caring one way or another.

[33:40]

Meantime, you're caring about things left and right. and you're not going to stop. But catching yourself with that and admitting that purifies you of that. And it especially purifies you when it doesn't do anything with it. If it messes with it, then you would never be able to resist using it, because it has a use. Now the funny thing is that when you enter into this realm where you're not using things anymore, then everything is your will. So how are you going to put this into practice? The teaching of this case is not getting stuck with a wooden duck. How are you going to do it?

[34:43]

We already said it. Can you say it again? What? Pardon? Getting stuck with a wooden duck? Catch yourself at being stuck. Admit that you're stuck with a wooden duck. Pardon? Purify and then get stuck again. Is that like to know yourself is to forget yourself over and over again? To know yourself is to forget yourself, but then when you forget yourself, then what? You're actualized. What? Then you're actualized, then what? Then you go back again. You go back again. How do you go back again? Just by... It just comes naturally anyway.

[35:43]

I know, but what's the function? What is this vehicle? Are you people following this? What? Its vehicle is the idea of the self. Vehicle is the idea of the self, or the vehicle is to get stuck in. Idea of self and getting stuck. Okay? Getting stuck is the way you purify your realization. Because if you don't get stuck again, then realization has its sign, leaves a trace. It messes with you. But there's no trace of realization. And not only that, but there is proof. There is verification and there is proof And the proof is that there's no trace. And the proof of no trace is that you completely re-enter back into the realm where you try to use things.

[36:49]

Did you get that out of this story? This is a story about what is and the story about how we try to use things and that's the way things are. Now how can we not tamper with the process and completely value the process over getting something out of it? That's part of what this case is about. This case is pointing out how we try to get something out of what's happening. And I think most of us are willing to admit that we're constantly trying to get something out of what's happening. That's a deep habit. But when things are clear, in other words, when things are the way they are, then we can use this rainbow. Then what we can use is this is, you know, the actual dependent co-arising of things.

[37:57]

That's what we use. In other words, we can't use anything, you know. Yes. This morning, this case popped into my head, and around what you were just saying, I was thinking of if you're kind of into gain and loss, and if you're into gain, you're trying to get ahead, like trying to go forward. I was thinking, oh, let's get ahead. And then it reminded me of the case of putting a head on top of your head. You're trying to gain. gain something and how that word in there sort of sort of reflected this that that error of this case of adding something to what's just happening yeah and if you're trying to gain gain getting rid of some bad some getting rid of getting rid of this habit that's also adding ahead

[39:08]

This morning I asked Tia a question, it was bothering me, about why do Buddhas depend on Prajnaparamita? And she explained it to me, I think, pretty good. So I understood that they, because they understand the wisdom of it, and because I was saying, well, what about emptiness and all that? And she explained that it is empty in the sense of nothing. She made it clear to me, I don't want to explain it back. But then I said, okay. Here, you can confirm me. And so I said, okay. So, I like that explanation. And then I said, alright, so today I'm going to practice non-interference. So I'm not going to interfere with things around me, I'm just going to Because I kept trying to figure out, like, what's the formula that I'm going to control things and figure out what's the formula.

[40:16]

So I'm going to try this other way, like, is it cutting my head off to do that? And so... I think there's like that sort of the middle way of doing that, but it's still that formula. I mean, I'm always trying to find a formula, but in that Heart Sutra of knowing the wisdom of the self and... I don't have all the words to describe, but... Well, I think you're doing pretty well. Not to say it didn't do well after that, but when you said that you were going to try to... you were going to try to... I thought you were going to try to avoid this pattern, and that would be cutting your head off. Yes. And so, when, again, then when you cut your head off, and you admit that, then you're back in the realm of practicing

[41:26]

what does he say, practicing outside the teachings. So he gives you teachings, this is cutting your head off, this is adding a head. So then you catch those things, catch those extremes, and that leaves you someplace else. Right. And that place is not interfering. This way you tried was was interfering. You were going to practice non-interference, but then the way you did that was a kind of interference. If you catch yourself at that, and you don't sweep back into your usual kind of interference, there you are, and there's nothing you can do anymore at that moment. But studying the... And I won't even say that's non-interference. Because if I say that, then I'm exemplifying interference again.

[42:29]

All I'm saying is that when you catch yourself at these errors, that's it. Then you don't know anything after that. Yeah. And then you get fed up with that and you go back on a trip again I'm still trying to find it again. Again, trying to find a formula is fine. Just realize that trying to find a formula is another either cutting your head off or adding a head, basically. You're trying to find a formula, trying to find words in which you can find the teachings. Which, you know. But you can't just use words. You can. You do. You can.

[43:31]

That is, however, an error. That is using a wooden duck. It won't work. It's the same... You know, it's worse than before you start practicing. But that's good because it amplifies... the normal tendencies of using the world, using life, it shows that. Everybody's going around trying to use life, and now practice makes a way for you to catch yourself at doing that. It says, now watch. We give you this way to stop that. We give you a way to stop trying to capitalize on life, to stop trying to exploit life. We give you this way of not doing that. And then you watch how you do that again with everything that's offered. And so you're doing that too. Then you hear about not interfering and you make that into a form of interference. You hear about not thinking and you make it into a kind of thinking. So it helps you realize how pervasive, because if you don't have these, without these techniques, you don't realize that how pervasive and unstoppable this pattern is.

[44:42]

Before you try something, you think, oh, I hear all about these meditation techniques. Probably if I tried them, I would stop being this kind of person. And all these techniques that you're given to stop being the kind of person you are, As soon as you try them, you fall right back in the same thing. So they help you realize how inevitable and, you know, how inevitable and how irresponsible we are. Okay? And once you admit that, then you're back to like, well, now I can't do anything, I guess. Again, that's another formula. You see? There's no way out. Now, The Buddha was like this too, as far as I can tell. Totally in this situation and completely admitting this unstoppable situation, this complete entanglement, complete stuckness and feeling full of anxiety about it and struggling against it and embarrassed about it.

[45:54]

He says, you know, he was really embarrassed to be this way. He was just like you and me. But at some point he realized that he had no alternative to this. No alternative to this habit. Most of us think we have an alternative to it. When you hear about release from it, you think there's an alternative to it. But the people who have received release are those who have stopped kidding themselves that they weren't doing this all the time, who thought maybe this is an exception. So by being totally absorbed in admission of your humanness, you become free of it. When you become free of it, you don't move into another space where you then can say, well, now this is it, or now this isn't it.

[46:59]

I can't say it all. In that moment, he's saying it all. What's he saying? I can't say it all. He can't say it all? Well, I'm wondering if there's a story within a story which has to do with Lopu facing death. So perhaps how he's facing death and still teaching, going right up to the limit, still teaching all the way, and the head monk and others are trying to help him. Stop teaching. They're trying to what? They're trying to... Well, Hedmark says something on Timely, and then Youngstron is hoping the question will go away, but Ropu sticks right to it.

[48:14]

He wants to argue it out. Well, he's dying, in effect. So I'm wondering if there's a larger meaning to the koan as to respect death, facing death. Well, in a way I have trouble understanding your question because the whole point of this is that he's facing death. But it gets away from that. It seems... It seems like it's getting away from that. Is it getting away from that? You don't seem to... You're saying it seems like it gets away from it, but you don't seem to think it gets away from it. Well, it kind of... You seem to think that's what it's about. It seems to lose more proof. It seems to lose more proof. It does?

[49:15]

At the very end he says, how miserable. Right. But in the first paragraph when it says that the one about to pass away was cut down chiefly, and tears come from the gut, and it's impossible to hide and escape, but is there anyone who has cool eyes? Well, I think Lopu has cool eyes. Yes. But all these other things, they confuse me as they all enter in. This teaching you're talking about... What other things confuse you? The whole story confuses you. The person diving in the river to his death, the sober one. Yes. There are some other things. Oh, the... The wooden goose becomes a teaching within the teaching as to how the fool is facing his death.

[50:16]

Yes. That's my impression. Yes, that's right. And now we're facing our death, and words are happening, and when the words happen, we get confused. always. Every word that happens we get confused because our mind uses it, and as soon as you use a word it throws you off. But we have the ability to notice that we're thrown off. You can experience being thrown off. Being thrown off can be experienced. And if you admit that you catch yourself being thrown off, you're right. And you can see the reason for being thrown off. Namely, you're trying to use what's happening.

[51:17]

If there wasn't that trying to use, there would be no disturbance. Now, when you catch yourself at using and disturbing, and then you don't try to use that, you just at the moment of admission, just at the moment of recognition, that's it. At that point, you're purified. And when you're purified, that purity can take refuge in Buddha. And taking refuge in Buddha is not, I'm going to use Buddha. If you're, I'm going to use Buddha, then you catch yourself at that, admit that, and in the admission of that I'm going to use Buddha, you switch over to open-mindedness, to take refuge in Buddha without using Buddha, to take refuge without getting anything out of it. But you don't say, okay, I'm going to take refuge in Buddha without trying to get anything out of it.

[52:20]

You just admit that you're a person who tries to get something out of everything. And in that admission, your mind opens. And then if you take refuge, you're fine. However, then, when you get there, the mind comes back in and says, okay, now we can really get something. And you pull it down again, and now you're going to capitalize on this realization. So again, you catch yourself, admit it, purify, and take refuge. And again, this unstoppable... anxiety and complication and attachment arises again, and you catch it again. Even after acquiring Buddhahood, will you continue this practice of confession? Yes, I will. Why, after attaining Buddhahood, would you have to practice confession?

[53:23]

Because you have a mind, and the mind constantly wants to use whatever it's imagining. It wants a wooden duck, it wants a technique, it wants a program, it wants a whatever. And it finds one always, and it has all kinds of judgments about it and so on. However, that creates a disturbance and a pain which you can notice, and you can notice the causation of the pain, and admitting that pattern puts you in a place where you can purely notice patterns for a little while. Well, I think that's what Yang Zong is doing over and over. First he says, I cannot say hello, and then he says, I have no identity to answer the teacher. It's like he keeps taking refuge. Do you feel Yang Zong keeps taking refuge over and over? Yes? I just want to sort of compare what you're saying with ordinary people.

[54:34]

psychological understanding of how the growth happens. And it seems like ordinarily we do, like you say, we try to make things better. But it seems like sometimes it works, at least for a while. And I'm wondering where that feeling of it seems to work for a while comes from in this process. Like I can think about a problem. You're wondering how? So I would say to you, please look and see how that comes about. There's a way that that comes about. You can watch how you figure out that it comes about. You can see how you figure it out. This is something, again, you can observe. How you calculate that these things have been proved. You can see how that comes about. And then you can also see... But that's just a calculation, very similar to figuring out that things got worse.

[55:37]

Okay? There's a way you figure out that things get better, and there's a way you figure out that things get worse. You can check that out. It follows certain rules of language, which we can talk about. It's kind of wonderful and mysterious how it happens, but we can actually watch how it happens. Okay? Okay? It's like a rainbow. And then there is the imagination that what you've just dreamt up is more than just something which you've dreamt up. That really things did get better. And you can catch that causation too how you then go a little bit step further and you say, this is so. Not just I dreamed this up, but this is so. Or, and then you notice how that will cause a disturbance which wasn't there, or isn't there, when you don't do that. However, you'll also notice that you always do do that. However, when you just admit that you do that, at that moment, you're free.

[56:44]

It's not that you don't do it, but you're free of this activity. And that's useless. And then you notice how long it is before you make use of it, which is again another pattern of causation, which you then will again say is real. And then you'll notice how that causes pain. You can notice how that causes pain. Then you may try to do the opposite, not attributing. Then that's the opposite, and that'll cause a different kind of pain, which is actually worse, but harder to spot, and you may be needing more help there. So all, you know, you say ordinary psychological, fine, get in there and watch how it happens. And if much is possible, with the spirit of watching without trying to get anything out of it, and again, if you try to do it that way, that won't be right, because you'll be trying to do it that way. But be open to the fact that you can watch it without trying to get something out of it.

[57:48]

And that happens... right after you admit that you are trying to get something out of it. As soon as you admit that, right at that time, you're telling the truth because you're almost always up to that. So when you admit that, you're right. And then you're open. And then at that moment, you're not trying to get anything out of it. And at that moment, you're not getting anything out of it. At that moment, you are valuing what's happening above what you can do, what you can use, what you can use to make things better or worse, what you can confer reality upon, and so on. you have just entered another realm, you have just taken refuge in Buddha. You've taken refuge in Buddha right after admitting that you're a human being. And the more you admit that you're a human being, the more thoroughly you realize that you are a thoroughly human being, and that you're more thoroughly that you realize that, the more thoroughly you will take refuge. And the more thoroughly you take refuge, the more thoroughly you won't be worried about how long this refuge will last.

[58:50]

you won't be hoping that it'll last for longer. You'll just take refuge without thinking about whether it's going to go on longer or shorter. You'll just take refuge. And then, the mind will rise again and throw you back into samsara. And then if you admit you're in samsara again, and you're in samsara primarily, not just because your mind's creating images, but because you believe they're real, therefore you're in samsara again, you admit it. That's right. you're ready to take refuge again. You take refuge again, and again, without hoping for it to last. Of course, your goal is that it would last, but not really last, because Buddha nature doesn't last. It lets delusion arise again so that Buddha nature can be born again. So you enter into this really wonderful and ungraspable, useless, from the human point of view, realm. Well, you cannot rest on your laurels, but you'll always try to.

[59:59]

But you can also gradually start to admit that you're such a totally corrupted being. And you can more and more accept that. And the more you accept that, the more you realize that you would never be able to stay in any state for a long time because your corruption is so powerful. It comes right back in and brings you back down very nicely. Plus you have a vow which says, come back, Shiva. So when that happens, you're fine. So yes, every example is good. From psychological, from nature, all these examples, watch how they go. This is how it happens. Yes? What's some practical advice about maintaining... I don't live at Green Gulch, and so I'm out in the world most of the time, and I'm often forgetting this. How I maintain... What's practical with maintaining faith? Practical maintaining of faith? Put a wooden duck on top of your computer. That's a very good idea. That's the best I did.

[61:04]

Okay, thanks. Thanks, May I? I really appreciate your help. Why is it called no trace? Why do you refer to that as no trace? Why do I refer to what as no trace? That process of... Letting things come up and then seeing that and then... There's no trace of cessation. There's no trace of becoming free of ordinary human mind. And the way there's no trace is you're right back in the soup. Buddhas are not afraid to be like us. Buddha's compassion is that Buddha is not afraid for each of us to be just like we are. If there's a little bit of like wanting to come back sort of to a slightly improved Jeanette, there's a trace. There's a trace. A little, just the slightest bit, you know.

[62:05]

And yet, there is verification. There is proof. And in a way, the proof is that you come back to being yourself more thoroughly somehow. More completely. More completely. Not a little bit less. Not a little bit less hooked. More hooked. More sunk. More stuck in the wooden duck. More human. But of course you can't be more human, so it leaves no trace. So, there's more courage, more fearlessness, more enthusiasm, more devotion, more fear. Embarrassment. More embarrassment. They are in tension.

[63:02]

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