Do you want to go over the verse of case 33? When first ascending the tiers of waves, clouds and thunder accompany. Leaping up magnificently, look at the great function. With a burnt tail, it clearly crosses the gate of you. The beautiful fish won't agree to be sunk in a pickle jar. An old, mature person doesn't startle the crowd.

[01:04]

Someone used to facing a great adversity has no fear from the start. Adversary has no fear from the start. Floating, floating, just as light as five pounds. floating, floating just as light as five ounces. Massive, massive, heavier than even a thousand tons. San Sheng exalted fame over the four seas. Who, again, was his fear? Tre Feng stands alone. The eight winds blowing did not move him. The commentary kind of explains everything here. But I don't know, is there any questions you have about this celebration of these two?

[02:17]

What is the gate of need? Pardon? What is the gate of need? Well, it says, you know, the dragon mountain gate in Jiang province was excavated by the king of Yu. It is also called the Yu gate, or gate of Yu, and it has three tiers. It's like, you know, three levels of, or three waterfalls, right? One waterfall, another waterfall, another waterfall. Um... So maybe this king, you, actually dug out the mountainside to create these three tiers instead of, you know, one thing, so that sturgeon could get up. You know what I mean? Maybe one big jump to one waterfall or one they couldn't do, but when you have tiers, they can kind of respirate a little bit before they take another jump.

[03:21]

And when the sturgeon make this three-level jump, you know, they turn into dragons, right? That's a dragon gate. It's also named gate of you after the person who excavated it. Right. This expression came from Lin G. said one time, he was seeing somebody up, and he says, in the Lin G., at the school of Lin G., the red-finned carp who wags his head, swishes his tail, and heads south, in whose house will it die immersed in a pickle jar? That's a reference to pickle jar. These fish are not going to die in a pickle jar. You can't get these fish in a pickle jar. Can't catch them.

[04:29]

These fish, these fish, these two fish in this story have become dragons. They've escaped the net. They've climbed the waterfall. They've gone through the gate. They're dragons. Doubly and Tripoli, they're dragons. And they're both dragons. And what is it? Thunder and clouds follow dragons. So they're accompanied by thunder and clouds. I think they've also gone through this initiation of climbing this waterfall. I have a question about the earth tail, because it seems strange that a fish, which, since it's underwater, wouldn't get exposed to fire. This seems like an interesting sort of Chuck's position. And so I wondered if you have any indication of what might have hurt this fish's tail? Well, I'm not sure.

[05:35]

This business about being burnt tail, I'm not sure, but it appears, burnt tail seems to appear quite a few times in this book. A burnt tail. I don't know what that means. I mean, I picture a fish with a burnt tail as sort of something that's driving it on. You know, the fire's behind it, and it's gotten so close that it actually burned the tail a bit, but it's now chasing it on. And I just, I mean, that's sort of the image that's brought to my mind. It's a red fin. Yeah, maybe that's a red fin. Oh, that's right. Burnt or maybe burnished. Burnt like a goat. Burnt, yeah, burnished. Would it have something to burn in the shedge versus the watery shedge? It could be that too, yes. The fish nature was burned up.

[06:38]

Although it's quite apparent that these are both dragons and both ascending the tiered of weight. It seemed that the first quatrain referred more to Sanchon, the more recent abuse, first ascending the tiered of weight. And it leaps up magnificently. And that is contrasted in the second quatrain to behold the tiered man who doesn't start with a drop. He was not newly ascended. What is it? That makes sense. However, the commentators say differently, right? But I can see that that's more straightforward with your interpretation. But the commentators say that the first part of the first line refers to Sanchon, and the second part of the first line refers to Shrepong.

[07:48]

That is, ascending the three-tiered ways is sanshan. And being followed by clouds and thunder is shreyfung. That's what the commentator says. And that this thing about the old mature person does not startle the crowd, that's compared to my task as abbot. And someone who's used to facing great adversity has no fear from the start. That's compared to Shansang's two questions. But I can also see what you're saying too. So one interpretation of this verse and also the verses in the Blue Cliff Record is basically the overall view is that both of these people are being crazed. There's just an overall sense of... I think the overall sense here is just there's not gain or loss here. It looks like that's what's happening. But what you're seeing here actually is not gain or loss.

[08:53]

You're seeing two people who are really peers. They're not into... They never can beat or lose each other. But yet there's some kind of dance that they're doing where it looks like they're being defensive or have some territory. They can act out this. They can fight, apparently. They can be one up, one down without ever really that happening. They're really in very good convenience. So the weight of the verses in both books seems to be just shining lots of praise on these people and say, try this story on from the point of view of these both people are really adepts. Now, why would adepts act like this? That's sort of the... the interpretation of both commentators on both sets of verses, that both people are being praised throughout, and neither one above the other at all. And yet they do kind of like trade off and go like this, up and down, apparently ahead or behind each other at various points in the story.

[10:04]

There's a kind of... sparkliness that you could interpret as one being ahead or behind the other, or some kind of conflict between them. But one of the wonderful things about real communication is that it can appear as conflict. And it's not limited to just looking like harmony in the usual sense of harmony. It really is freedom. to take any form. And that's the form this takes, this story. Yes? I'm sorry, but I really have a problem with this hate thing. I get confused by how they even approach working with these, and sometimes it seems like that in literature. But, you know, the stories that come alive and they're going away, sometimes it feels like, and it's an alligator or some kind of animal that's sort of just grabbing me.

[11:17]

feeling like this, and it's really unpleasant. And every time I start thinking about this story, I start feeling tick to my stomach, and it feels like a poison. It feels like taking a poison. And part of it is around, I get, when you say it, you know, it's too bad for whatever. Part of it is self-pending to the existence of that whole concept of you know, at least two people who, you know, who are they who set their depths? Is this really just two people perpetrating, you know, two emperors with no clothes on it? You know, things are wonderful. Wouldn't it be wonderful? Wouldn't it be wonderful if all the fish got there and that? But there's another priority. The whole thing makes me feel sick. And I'm like, um, I don't know.

[12:21]

What is it? And do I ever see a living in depth? And there are people who are supposedly in depth that end up falling on the face of the front of an ally. And if the spring flat was cold, really uncomfortable. It feels like something sticky. It can't lay off. I just wanted to put that up. No, it's fine. Thank you. I don't want to be in a conversation with people about it or come in and see yourself about it when it's one of the cases that The image I have to do with this tiger, not stronger, but sort of like a little tummy tiger, you know, having a tail, but going, and a little. I don't know how to do it.

[13:26]

That's just, well, what I did back here, I kept walking. You know, you look at the next time, but as soon as I'm back, there's a good story. It was still coming up. I was going to ask, did you say that there's something that made you feel so foolish about this story? You thought... About me. Oh, about the spiritual. Oh, you're talking about it. This one doesn't understand. I think the thing that I feel a little bit, what do you call it, squeamish about is raising the issue of spiritual communion. And... For various reasons. One is that it's a little bit, it could get into emperor's clothes kind of stuff, and also it's about something, about a realm that you can't see with your ordinary eyes.

[14:27]

To some people it sounds really wonderful. Well, I mean, I go on how important it is, and then... And that might make some people feel really upset about a process that's being alluded to that maybe they feel, well, is somebody in on this but not me? Or am I being wept out? Why even bring it up? In fact, it isn't brought up too much in the in the transmission of Zen to America that has not been brought up much for whatever reason. But some pretty emphatic statements are made about this kanodoko, this spiritual communion, and I feel like it's going on in this case.

[15:29]

that this is a spiritual communion. And in one sense, I feel like if you're upset about it, it may be because you sense that this is about something that you really long for. And so you're drawn to it. And then you get into this vortex that this story is kind of like actually pointing you to. So it really... It throws you into, in some sense it throws you into this waterfall that, you know, are you going to get swept away by it or are you going to climb up and meet these people? And in one sense it seems like a tremendous, these people have made tremendous efforts and become these dragons by climbing these waterfalls.

[16:32]

And because they're dragons, they actually can get up and show the functions of the spiritual communion. And even though the spiritual communion is not something you can see. And so the joy of these two people interacting and the joy of their life is something that's also beyond joy. It's not even like joy. As a matter of fact, It can pervade being poisoned or being sick to your stomach. Spiritual communion really has no marks. And so the fact that some of you, or Carolyn in particular, is being twisted and turned and moved about by the words of this case, I feel like whenever that happens in a colon, I think it's good that you let the words get to you.

[17:40]

Although I'm saying this is a happy story, the story of two people that aren't fighting anymore at all and yet are interacting so intensely that it can look like a fight and look like titans actually struggling with each other. I think that this is somehow a theatrical version of a very subtle mutual support where back and forth they're doing the appropriate thing with each other. And another part of what I see in the story is that doing what's doing the thing called climbing a waterfall or doing what's necessary required in order to become a dragon is something that you don't do by yourself. It's not by your own personal effort that you accomplish this transformation is accomplished.

[18:48]

So in one sense, if you look at these people up on top of the waterfalls dancing with each other, you might get really upset and say, well, I'll never get up there. As a matter of fact, it's not that I won't get up there. It's not like you're standing by the edge of the stream looking up there at this torrent coming down and these dragons playing up there, but actually you're in the stream and you're either going to climb or get washed away. And not only you get washed away, but you're going to get washed away from from that scene up there. So you're going to have all the problems of being washed away, plus, even worse than ever, you're going to be washed away from paradise. So it could be quite upsetting to look at this story. On the other hand, if you can tune into this communication that they're doing, that understanding that communication is, in some sense, accomplishes this great work climbing waterfalls.

[19:51]

So I feel like one way of looking at the story is if you take the presentation of these people are doing this rare and wonderful dance, you might look at it and they're not really struggling And they're very fully accomplished beings that you might just feel just left out in the cold. But what I'm partly suggesting to you is that you can understand the nature of their communication. That understanding will do this very difficult work. And it's not that either one of them do it on their own. And it says in one text, actually, that the the merit or the efficacy of going for refuge, the merit or efficacy of receiving Buddha's Dharma and Sangha is realized in this communion. The merit or the actual manifest function of receiving Buddha's precepts is realized in the situation of this communion.

[21:14]

It's not that you go get them yourself, and it's not that somebody else just gives them to you. It's in this interplay that the real meaning of receiving the precepts occurs. You can't be left out of this except by your own understanding. However, you don't get into this just by your own understanding. It's not by your own personal effort you can feel excluded from this communication. But it's not by your own personal effort that you're included. However, your own personal effort is what you have to do. But you need to sort of understand that your own personal effort is just half the story of how one meets with the adepts.

[22:26]

Yes. I have a question as to what you might need about trust at the end with these two. It's like when I feel kind of upset with them, it's because I'm not really sure, or can I be sure, you know, if they're not only thinking, I can't see what they're talking about because I'm not on the same stage. So there's a kind of... It's kind of a problem for me to know if they are or not. So I don't have to trust them in that case. Which is difficult for you. And of course you said some people just kind of fall down and you can see that it probably would be for you. So I thought that. That's one of the, what do you call it, that's one of the things that may, that may, I don't know what, be nauseating or frightening about these stories. But I think that, for me, that's, to some extent, that's, what is it?

[23:36]

Well, part of the dynamic here is that how do you respect somebody appropriately? If you don't respect somebody, They can't do anything for you. They're basically useless to you if you don't respect them. But it's also possible to respect someone without asserting yourself. Some people respect somebody and then they forget about their responsibility to express themselves. And so part of the problem is Part of the danger in this water is, I think that some of you sense, is that if you look at these people or anybody as an adept, as somebody who's free, then you may be afraid that you'll just respect them and you won't assert yourself. That's a reasonable assumption. That's something you should really be worried about.

[24:42]

But it's not so much that you worry about trusting them, it's just that you worry about trusting them in such a way that you stop expressing yourself, which is not really trusting them. If you really trust them, what you should realize is the reason why you trust them is because you need to trust them in order to get them to do their job for you, which is to recognize you expressing yourself. But if you just respect them and forget The hard work, which is, what is it? How do they say it? Oh. Where is it? Anyway, somebody, someone, where is someone? Oh, someone used to facing great adversity has no fear from the start. So in some sense, an adept is an adversity. He's an adversary. They're an adversary in the sense that you have to express yourself in their face. So you may be afraid if you recognize how, if you really respect somebody, that you may check out and split off into just recognizing and recognizing and recognizing him so high in the sky that you'll just forget about your responsibility.

[26:03]

That's dangerous. And that's a reasonable danger. So then what people think is, well, bring them down. Your job is not to bring them down. Their job is to bring themselves down. It's not your job. Even those have a tendency to bring them down. But you shouldn't have to bring them down. And if you try, you're wasting your time. Because you need them up there. So rather than just pulling them down, leave them up there, and you climb yourself. But not just by your personal effort of climbing something, but by your personal effort of expressing yourself. And if you don't want them to be too high, well, just put them up a little bit, and then express yourself up to that point, and put them up higher, and then express yourself up to that point. Well, just put them up higher and express yourself up to that point.

[27:05]

So free is a symbol of quite a few. So the point is you do this maybe in stages. Maybe you don't put them up too high because maybe you can't express yourself to meet such a person. But put them up a little bit higher than yourself so that they mean something to you, and then express yourself toe to toe, face to face. Yes? I think the thing that bothered me about this case most of all, was that this way of talking to each other seemed very steep and dangerous. You know, that addressing people this way, drawing lines this sharply, and playing it through this level of stakes seemed kind of scary to me. But in last week's class, I thought about in that way, and compared it to another way of two NFs talking to a valuable teacher and a more recently awakened traveler who comes to meet the teacher.

[28:23]

And it would express itself in a sort of more obviously congenial way. just that way. That's the way Buddhas are. That's the way all the Buddhas are, and that's how you are, and that's how I am. And thinking about comparison, that actually seems more dangerous. When I first heard it, it sounded more congenial, but that seems like ultimately far more dangerous than that. So here's a story, okay, he's referring to, sort of to a story, where I think that the sixth patriarch meets one of his main disciples and says, you know, where are you from? And he says, what is it that thus comes? Okay.

[29:24]

And the student says, to say that it's this, this is the point. And the teacher says, well, does that mean there's no practice or realization? The student says, I don't say that there's no practice or realization, just that it can't be defiled. The teacher says, this undefiled way has been practiced by all Buddhas. I'm like this. You're like this too. You are thus and I'm thus too. Like I said before, you look at the baby and you say, hey, you're you and you're just like me. It's, you know, this mirroring, this recognition and affirmation. And so that's that story, okay? And so that's kind of, I think that's sort of the story I hear you alluding to. It sounded very, very polite. A little bit of a challenge there of saying, well, you say there's no practice in Realization. You said, what? I mean, the student's not going to say, you know, what it is in terms of what is dustness.

[30:28]

He says, I'm not going to say it's this. And the teacher affirms him very deeply, apparently on a first meeting basis. And Stuart says, that looks cordial at the beginning, but seems dangerous. I think that there's danger all the time. Like when I first looked at this story some time ago, being kind of a dull fish, I just, you know, nothing happened to me. I didn't get, I just, so what? You know? So I, you know, I admire those who can get so into it after studying it for just a little while. Martha? What? I mean, most of these stories that we've read from time, that the teachers who were talking to one another or the teachers and students who were talking to one another, that there's a kind of something they all have in common which took through.

[31:32]

I'm not too sure what the sort of it is, but it's that they love each other. in some work. And I'm not sure if you love them so much, and we talked about it, or whatever, but it's some quality of a deep infection that I feel between people that are dying while being not alone in the case of other things. And that it's that that actually brings this book together. It's because of that ground and being that they speak to the actual And in the context of that, sometimes I look at this, it's kind of sublime teasing. And that's just too light in the context of what they're saying now. No, I think it's fine, sublime teasing. Yeah. And like I say, I'm being kind of dull when I look at the story some time ago.

[32:33]

I didn't understand that this was love. So it didn't mean much to me. But I also see, you know, that as some people say, all objects in the universe have a deep attraction to each other. They're all attracted to each other by the laws of physics and the laws of non-physics. And... At the same time, in this world, things seem to be in conflict sometimes. That's the way it looks. But actually, everything functions under the laws of love. The whole universe functions under that law, under that principle. But the way it looks sometimes, we can't see that. We don't feel that we're being loved by what's happening. What I related to it was, at first breakfast, it seemed like your macho posturing.

[33:37]

It's not very negative, but last week we talked about inspection between these two people. I had worked a number of years in the construction field. This is the kind of dialogue around the stuff that happens constantly, daily. And what I realized with people I've worked with, they actually cared for one or nothing. And that's how I personally waited to dispense. That I could see the caring behind this. Except the people say, hey, I'm really glad to see you today. Take yourself a nail down to a box to floor. But, you know, the French knew I could be really caring. Why would someone put this in the collection?

[34:41]

Who recorded this and wrote it down in the book? And why didn't this exchange pass off into the infinite void and let them completely ignore? Well, exactly. And somebody wrote this down That's a teaching. I think that when you look at it as a teaching, I think it's efficacy and strength in the teaching might be most clearly evident. We don't care who's got about it. It seems like that we all work so well, I think. Because somehow I think that it's out of great doubt. Great doubt isn't it. their final component to climbing the waterfall.

[35:44]

I just can't help it feel, but I think there's no sense to this. Somehow, it also puts you in place where it's very difficult to turn. I can really start with that. Well, I also realize that I feel like when we read this, we're kind of starting from zero, because it's hard to understand, at least for me, like, you know, what's this all about, the golden fish, and what that comes from, and we want to think about the golden fish to begin with, and so forth, whereas I think that you know, ancient times where people have read this, there's already this lore about the fish that's going up and leaking up over this waterfall. If you're already familiar with this whole story and understand the fish, then you come at this exchange with a very different point of view.

[36:55]

And part of the reason why I was thinking of that was that I understand that this The thing about the fish going up these waterfalls has to do with, in Japan, the whole Boy State thing. But this is, I mean, everybody knows the story that this is becoming a man and going through this gate is a big deal. Whereas I wasn't familiar with this before. So I think it helps to know that background. Right, and just to parenthetically, it's really a minor point, but just historically speaking, I think the reason why this story is in this book is because people like this story, they found it useful. But the reason for it being written down, just historically speaking, I would suggest to you that this person here, Sanshan, the fact that he was traveling around China

[37:58]

was probably something that was well known throughout the country, because he was a successor to one of the most influential Buddhist teachers in history. So once he became a successor and started walking around, everybody in the country, in all Buddhist monasteries, was expecting him, wondering when he would show up. When he showed up, everybody was watching. It was a public event. If you can imagine something like that, imagine if there was a Lin Xi in America today, and he had a success and then died, and these guys started roaming around Zen Center and showing up at the White House in Hollywood. When's he going to come to Zen Center? And how are we going to, is there some teacher here that could entertain this person? It turns out that China at that time was the golden age of Zen, so there actually were some teachers that could meet this guy. But when he came, like everybody was watching, and people wrote down what happened, But a lot of things, he visited a lot of places. This is one of the stories that sort of has lasted longest.

[39:00]

That's why I think it got written down. The reason why it's transmitted and it's in these big collections is because it's one of the favorite among the millions of stories. This is one of the favorite ones. And also, as Maya says, we didn't grow up with pictures like this. In China and Japan, people grew up with pictures like that in their houses, or at least educated people had pictures like this in their houses, and even the ones that didn't heard about pictures like this, and this is in the lore of the culture. So this imagery and stuff like that's the way they've talked, especially when they're visiting certain people. I want to also say something, but I'll save it. What was the next thing? With their hand raised. Somebody. Yes, Arlene. When I first heard it be talked about, my thought was, oh, it's a voice club dialogue. And that it's about rites of passage, and it's something that, okay, fine, you know, as a mother of sons, I can relate to that dynamic.

[40:11]

I mean, really, totally. And then when... I'm sorry, I don't recall who it was, said, gee, what would women, you know, what kind of dialogue? So I had a lot of thoughts about that and how different it would be and how it would bring up with men and women conversations about how women to women would do it would be oh it's a little too intimate and you're a little too personal and you're talking a little too detailed if it was women to women men might come out from that approach Are you following me? No. I'm sorry. I just meant that women would talk more intimately and more basically about what was transpiring and digressed into basic language and not metaphors or symbolism or anything like that, perhaps, maybe in our society today.

[41:15]

with the question of how would women react with this kind of conversation? Are you following me now? And I'm thinking of something at the same time. But then... Tonight, when we were reading the verse, and they were talking about the pickle jar, I thought, well, this means that they're not going to stay locked into anything. Does that leaping in those gates mean that they're just going to keep plowing through and not staying locked up in their thoughts, their actions, their perceptions? and the way of what is supposed to be. The pickle jar is going to be in there. Well, also, somebody said, commenting on Sangsheng's original comment, it says, he doesn't touch upon, you know, he doesn't touch upon profound reality.

[42:19]

He doesn't say about Buddha Dharma. He's not talking in the usual terms. he's coming out with this rather unusual way of talking. He's really free to be able to talk this way. And that's also part of his, what is it, his magnificent function. That's why I thought the locked up, you know, the term of not being locked up in there. Right. They're not because they're not locked up. No. But I think that when Scott says something, well, what women would say, the main thing I got from that is that people felt invited to talk. which I think is important. But I still haven't heard how women would talk in this same way. In other words, the same way being that they're talking in such a way that it's not by identifying an experience that you can tell what they're talking about. These are not two people in an experience.

[43:23]

That's the issue. They're inexperienced, but what's really going on here is something that's much more profound than experience. It's an enlightenment which has nothing to do with experience, and yet they're inexperienced. These guys are demonstrating perfect harmony and blissful love while apparently fighting. or, you know, jockeying. How would women, in the same kind of ironic way, or paradoxical way, or a way that clearly shows that it's not by some kind of state of experience that this thing is manifested and communicated, what would that story be like? That's what I still haven't heard. You talked about some kind of general comments, but I haven't heard what it looked like. I'd like to hear. Yes? What's wrong for me is that, um, to clarify gender is like, just giving them a difficult job. Why does it have to be some gender? Why does it have to be women and why does it have to be men? Surely you explain perfect, will, and bliss, and disharmony, then both sexes are apparent.

[44:25]

If you're an enlightened It doesn't have to be male or female. I'm just saying that in this story, these are two men, and they're interacting in a way which sounds like they're fighting. And yet, Nisha pointed out that some people, the way they talk to each other, is that they, you know, they say, you know, you jerk. And that's their best stab at expressing... I didn't understand what just happened. Their best dad? Was that on purpose? I'm not that smart. We wouldn't say that. Yeah. See, when I... Foul a necessity, yes. When I look at this and consider that it's ironic, I think it's very ironic, and I also see the affection, the luck between them, and I see it as power meaning power, that they're very equal.

[45:39]

So there's irony and power and And I think a woman would speak exactly like this. To me, I don't see... I think women speak exactly like this, you know, asking some obscure question when they mean something out. And getting the same kind of answer. I think it's just as female as it is, male as it stands. I mean, I could do a translation. That's what I feel. I don't... Yeah, and part of my question is, do women, first of all, use rhetoric? I think they do. And what rhetorical devices, what is the distribution of rhetorical devices among women? I propose to you that in Zen stories, the rhetoric that they use to communicate their practice, their realization, the rhetoric, the most common rhetorical device is irony.

[46:40]

There's other rhetorical devices that are used too. That's a common rhetorical device which is used by these male Zen teachers. Do women use irony? Do enlightened women use irony? What do they use? Do they use rhetoric? And what rhetorical devices do they use? And I think that some people might feel that an enlightened woman would not use rhetoric. Well, why would they think that? Because people think enlightened people are beyond coming down to using rhetoric. They think that enlightened people are in some state, that enlightenment's an experience. And if it's an experience, well, then you've got to behave in accordance with that experience. If enlightenment, if compassion and love is a certain kind of experience, well, then you're in a pickle jar. But people do think, basically, people think that enlightenment, people basically think the way they think implies that enlightenment isn't a fickle job. That's the way most people see it.

[47:41]

Because they put it in some state and they put marks on it, and that's what they say. They say, now that looks like enlightenment, and this doesn't. That's what most people do, male or female. I'd not just like to ask, I don't know about enlightenment, but I wonder if anybody here can tell a difference in the rhetorical devices or the manners of speaking that the men and women in this group tonight have used. In other words, has there been some easily infected obfuscation in the way men and women have expressed themselves here, naturally by self-conscious? I think that it depends if you're trying to get into the character that is in the book or if you're trying to get in the character that is you. That would be the way you'd expect yourself.

[48:45]

If you're reading it just as the character is part of the boys club as a woman, I would answer it maybe differently from my experience of the men in my life. If I was answering it from who I am based on my experience as a partner or as a parent, it would be more on feelings than experiences of the feelings. I just wanted to say something. I'm going to say something and I want to ask you if a woman would talk like this. Have you heard me say something like, if you hear about some character, like if you're an actress or an actor and you hear about a character, let's say you're a woman.

[49:47]

and you hear about a male part, a male character. And you think about that character, and you have an imagination about that character. Now, have you heard me say something like this, that if you enter into your imagination of that character fully, which is just your imagination of that character, have you heard me say something like, if you do that fully, the actual character will come and meet you? No. So, here's a story. There's two characters in this story. Each of us has some imagination of who those characters are. I have one imagination, you have another one, you have another one. My imagination is tempered by my stories I've heard about these people. Those of you who have heard less stories will create a different image of who these people are. But everybody has an imagination of these stories. I just want to remind you that what I have said to you is that if you entered into your imagination, if you become what you imagine these people to be, not who they are, but who you imagine them to be, if you inhabit your imagination with which you have worked on the story of these people, that these people will come to meet you.

[51:09]

And I don't know if you have enshrined to inhabit your imagination, but I just want to remind you of that principle. Now, does a woman talk like I just did? Can a woman talk like that? I talk like that to myself, but it's really hard to talk to anyone else like that. But I have long conversations with her, and I talk about these stories almost every day, but I wouldn't dare talk to anyone. I've heard a lot of women like that. Cardi? I've heard a lot of women like that. And what? Martha, Carrie, Cynthia. I did the personal, I went to an all-girls school, and the senior player, Cesar Cleopatra, and what they said to me, and the dronald teacher was the woman. Julius. Julius Cesar? Julius Cesar. And the dronald teacher was the woman, and she spoke to me much the way you just spoke, and how I could actually understand the part.

[52:19]

And did you inhabit your imagination? I was Cesar. Did Cesar come to you? I would say that, you know, it's an interesting idea that I forgot that, but I think that in a way it's not very respectful. you know, that women couldn't be fearless. Nobody said that it had to be nicer or something. Why couldn't women talk like that? And it was inspiring to me. Can women be free?

[53:38]

That's not the question. Can women be free? Can women be free? But let's give us an example of the difference of how, I mean, how many men would start throwing? I mean, how many men would start throwing? I mean, how many men would start throwing? Can men be free? Can men be free? What happened? How come they didn't get out excited?

[54:40]

I don't know. They think they already are. Dang. Now, if those men who think they're already free would completely inhabit that thought, freedom would come to each other. What is one woman ahead of you? Could you take your turn, Cynthia? That was it. OK, . Did you tell me that some of the feelings of a need for women's or . Did you take it? Really? Come ahead. Some of the need to relate to the story can come from the historical nature. It's one woman talking recently. Every morning she chants 90 male names at the line of successors, at the line of ancestors. And when you ask the question, we just have to say, well, I've spoken 90 of them this morning.

[55:42]

I mean, we have role models. We have examples. It seems to me that however in our society today, if I'm asked to compare the differences between gender let's say this kind of group of people, some of them are on one side, and you try to make some generalities, first of all, can be very difficult. And we all keep talking here as if there's this male thing, and there's this female thing, and it's pretty obvious, but, you know, you can draw a line right down the middle of the room, and you can start putting words on one side and words on the other side, and nobody could disagree with that, but... That's me. It's a real tough one to swallow. And if I'm going to look for ways to not relate to this, and I think that maybe women would agree also that the bigger difference here is a different continent in 1,500 years. That seems to me to be a lot more of separation between myself and, well, between any of us and and than gender.

[56:54]

So, I mean, you know, that's, perhaps it's easy to say as a male, but I just don't think that it's as easy to say, well, a man would and a woman wouldn't. I think part of the problem is that we never really, as we never really learn or don't have a tradition to express ourselves so much. So that's part of it. I thought about when you were people asking, so what would they say? How would they say it? And I think it's part of what you said about the answer to whatever. We never had this very good background of, you know, studying or things. So we are kind of a native pattern, because So this is why we want men and women. It's more about men and women. And it feels very often like not having something like an identity, like a background where I come from as a woman. I don't have a tradition with women.

[57:55]

So my tradition is men and I'm always in this. It could kind of spill it, and I'm at both of them. That's part of the problem, for us being women, having something I could call, this is what a woman would say. This is where I come from. It's like, I sometimes feel like I don't have a home. It's like, I don't really have a home. Yeah, I'm a little peculiar, but I've also It's like, where are you coming from, you know? I'm not from your problem. And that sometimes makes me hurt. You don't feel like you have a mood, like you have moods? In this cultural sense of being a woman, I feel sometimes we don't. I don't mean it in my personal sense, but it's quite a .

[59:00]

A tradition. Like the male names which end in the morning. There aren't any women's names in there. There aren't any women's names in there. But it's like a tradition. We don't come from a... Yes. Right, and there's also some stories. There's also some stories. And there's also stories in these collections where women teachers are being referred to and you're not told that they're women. There's a number of cases in these collections where it says, so-and-so Dharma master said such-and-such, or so-and-so said such-and-such, but they don't mention that it's a woman. The text doesn't say, this is a woman. And nobody guesses by the way she's talking that it's a woman.

[60:08]

And when we chant with the lineage in the morning, it doesn't sound particularly like... Hello. We can tell you different. Check it. [...] I think it's interesting. The only access to the idea of the disaster are not like, you know, a lot of women are 50% women and 60% women. It's because of the impulse and your imagination fills in the gap. And what I said before about, you know, what people have been saying here tonight and content and the meaning of what people have been saying, I would bet, I would really bet that if somebody took, you know, some kind of electronic equipment and mowed the pitch of everybody who brought us in here or raised it such that you were just going on content and not a pitch, you probably couldn't tell the men from the women unless they were talking specifically about saying, I'm a woman.

[61:19]

That's my situation. This class is an unusual pattern, generally-wise. Usually men dominate the conversation to a great extent when the men are moving together. They interrupt. They get at a much higher rate and so on and so forth. In this class, the women have been talking, I think, as much as the men. The men have not been interrupting the women, particularly. So this is a class. Tonight has been an unusual pattern of speaking for this culture. Thank you for having me.

[62:23]

I think it's partly because we're talking about gender, and it's also partly because we invited, we raised the issue of invited women. Usually in this class, I think the women talk more than the average female situation. And that, if you're talking about gender, you tend to express yourself from which side you come to your subconsciously outcomes. But this whole thing about gender is really bothering me. It's like I didn't come here to be separated from all the human beings. I came here to be in harmony with... I can't express being a man. I'm tired of doing that. That's totally socially bad. I'm here to learn new ways of living. To see these two great masters in my life, I don't... I see two dragons.

[63:26]

How can you tell the dragon is a male or female? I don't know. I think there isn't a way, though. Excuse me, I don't know your name, but... Chris, Chris, your response to what you're saying is I didn't think he was mad at the male either, but the women did. The women did this, so it's not for us to say that this is not, that this is universal. To me it's not so much important whether you can tell a joke whether it's a male or female dragon, but rather can you tell with the person, whether they're male or female, whether they're a dragon.

[64:28]

Can you spot dragons? If you can't spot dragons, you're basically in trouble. What? I think the question here is that, does it hinder? What hinder? This story? Yeah, does this motive, the way these two dragons are talking, does this hinder women seeing dragons? Well, first you got to see one to become one. You are dragons, actually. Buddha said you're dragons. Buddha said all sentient beings are dragons. In order, the first step in becoming a dragon is to see a dragon. When you see a dragon, then you go up to the dragon and you basically start breathing fire at it on the dragon.

[65:34]

And the dragon says, hey, I do that too. You must be a dragon. That's the usual story. And it's not a story that men told. It's a story, basically, that women are the first ones to tell. You tell it, the mother tells it to the baby. The mother dragon says to the baby dragon, you are a dragon, and I'm like that too. That's where we start. That's why we have to do it again when we grow up. That's my story. I learned it from women. Women are the ones who looked at me and said, you are a dragon. I learned it from women. Yeah. Because that's what women do. That's what women do. But women, traditionally, women have not been called there, right? Except as women know. And I think that, and that's been bad generalization, but I think the problem with the language is then cruising back with the language.

[66:40]

It's then that I think the language has been in it, and I think the language in the story, in other forms all over, is in it all the time. Because in a situation like this, a woman is watching two dragons, if you're changing, having an interchange, and whatever, whatever reason, can't stand up, either can't or doesn't, or stands up and admit the squeak and doesn't get the affirmation that, oh, you're driving. So, I mean, I think that's changing, but I think it has been, it has been, it has been. What has been the English? The language, but not... It's not that women can't and they'll talk like this.

[67:43]

It's that they... a lot has been affirmed as being ragged when they do. And so, would it stop? Being a dragon lady isn't a compliment. What a compliment. It isn't a compliment. I heard Cynthia say that women have not been affirmed for pulling dragons and then as a result of that they stopped trying to express that and I think that's true, and I think men also have not been affirmed as dragons, and we also stop expressing them.

[68:45]

The name of the game is find a dragon, express your dragon nature, get affirmation. That's the name of the game for human life. It's rare. If you don't find a dragon, you cannot realize your dragon nature. But you can't realize you're dragon nature by just hanging out with dragons and, you know, feeling the heat and warming your hands and sort of looking up to them and expecting them to do the work. You have to realize the reason why you're attracted to dragons is that you have already been affirmed as a dragon in the past. Everybody here on some level knows that they're dragons. However, we've been told by a lot of people not to express that. It's true. We've been told by people not to express anything. We've been told by people to shut up. Troll up in a ball and get out of the way.

[69:47]

That's what we've been told. You get to tell us that a lot. And that's part of the reason why we don't express ourselves. Because we get in trouble. There's a price of expressing yourself. Especially expressing your dragon nature. And the person to express your dragon nature to is somebody who you see as a dragon. And they seem to be the most dangerous people to express yourself to. For various reasons. Because you need them. And in fact, you need them because of the way you think about them. If you didn't respect them and look up to them or value them as dragons, they wouldn't be so important and you wouldn't be so worried about losing them. So how do you make this relationship where if you express yourself and they don't like it, you get cut off from something you need, which you don't want to do. But if you don't express yourself, you don't realize your potential. See, someone has to express yourself, taking the chance that they might be here with the relationship.

[70:49]

You've got to take that risk. You people are doing that very nicely tonight. Yes? Well, I think one of the big differences in a meeting in a way is that some people in Rome 10 years ago were in a very different experience because there were not so many women priests, and if there were women priests, they were teaching classes, they weren't even lecturing or pumping. I mean, it's a very different atmosphere in these conversations than, you know, even lessons they used to talk. And so I think in some ways I can understand the sentiment being expressed here tonight with Canada isn't really It's an obstacle perhaps to be a vehicle for understanding these features and ourselves. But it's not, it's only a blink of an eye when this very place and this very sauna predominated completely by male pictures. in the present, not to say anything before in the past. And I remember... I'm a long way.

[71:51]

And I think you can say, express yourself, but we may have prided him, but then there wasn't any people we met. There was no... The invitation was almost unrecognizable. The invitation for women to speak. Women can speak quite a bit. Women do talk more than men, basically. The number of words said by women during the average day is much greater than the number of words said by men. I'm not sure. I have heard of research. I've heard of many studies. And studies I've observed is that women talk, say many more words, and spend more of their time than any day talking than men. And most of the women I hang around with talk a lot more than I do. When I'm in a class, a situation like this, men do most of the talking.

[72:53]

In mixed company, men do much more of the talking than women do. But women spend a lot of time with other women, and there they talk more than men. Put two men in a car, let them take a ride, and sometimes they won't say anything to themselves but hundreds of miles. Put two men in a kitchen, have them talk together. They may not say anything to each other for hours and hours, or just a few words like, whereas women often talk quite a bit in the kitchen and quite a bit in the car. Men don't call each other usually every day just to chat. They don't do that so much as women do. Women, generally speaking in this culture, talk a lot more than men. The studies I'm telling you about were done by women. I'm repeating things to you that women have said.

[73:57]

Women do talk like I'm talking. They do say these words that I just said to you. Women do say women talk more than women. They do say that. I've read it. I've heard it. I've heard many women say it. And women have also told me that men interrupt and dominate conversation. I've heard that from women. Most of the information I have about speech patterns have come to me from women. They're taking a big ball here. Yeah. Anyway. There was something that Herd wanted to say. I was thinking that... And what comes up to me, having had a sales background, you know, like, typically imperative, you go ahead and realize, wouldn't it?

[75:13]

Well, that's pretty exciting. Because I don't have that particular pattern of people. But I also think that I am stupid. I'm just repeating what you said. I don't feel that way, but I have my own impediments, and I don't comment. and . So I'm saying it's like, it's just one impediment, but it's not all of it. Oh, yeah. And my question is, what is this that stops us? Because I was really . And it was pretty clear. And yet, what I was talking about when you find a dragon, when I find a dragon, I don't express .

[76:19]

I wanted to ask you if you would speak a little bit more of your Dharma talk. You talked about the true expression of yourself and taking that leap to really do it. And this story ties into that. But where are the boundaries and the practical part of living? And to really, truly express your drag in nature to not go through pain and suffering that you might be asked to leave a community, or you might be just, you know, plowed up against the wall and having every dart from every angle, taking, because I think it's difficult to study the co-on and listen to you talk and yet really understand what the boundaries are. Because I think in human beings in this day, in fact, there are boundaries, and it's okay to say that the repercussions can be pretty severe.

[77:32]

You're ostracized, sometimes. You can really drag them with a full roar of fire, or you're a disruptor. which in some cases can be very positive, but you can also, the price is pretty high. You're kicked out of what you love. Well. It's certainly possible. Like, I don't know, Carolyn threw something across the room today. She could have broken a window. If she had broken it, wouldn't we have kicked her out of the Zen Center? Put her in. It's possible. What do you mean about what? What do you mean about causing unrest or causing an expression of your true self? And I don't think this just applies to This particular community, I think it certainly goes into the business. Well, can you give an example? I thought that was an example.

[78:34]

She did something which was kind of like touching on the boundaries of usual behavior. Can you give another example that we can respond to a particular community? Well, I think everybody was in a safe enough space for her to do that. Could you please give an example? I cannot give you a specific example without citing certain people. We need a specific example to see what the story is. What is the boundaries of behavior? What can you do expressing yourself And I would say to you that there are boundaries in this community. In any community, there are boundaries. And if you push on them, you can get in trouble for it. But I think that the most dangerous thing is always much more dangerous than yelling at somebody or breaking windows. The most dangerous thing is to be yourself. That's the thing which is most dangerous and the most likely you'll get kicked out for it. that is the thing which people most are afraid of is to see somebody being herself even if you're technically inside the usual boundaries if you express yourself people get very most upset about that and that's the most dangerous situation because as i said last week when they come to get you they know right where you are when you're really expressing yourself when they don't like that that really hurts you and even if you stay in the community

[79:59]

You can really be hurt. However, that is the price to pay to be a dragon, is you have to be yourself. And you have to be yourself with, for example, a whole community, which is a whole community is a dragon. A whole community is a very powerful being. And to express yourself fully in the face of a whole community is dangerous. People often get in big trouble for expressing themselves. So that's why my question is to you that I felt some very strong seriousness about when you said that. That was a very profound talk that you gave, but it was you really didn't have permission to do that in most life circumstances without being kicked out, fired, laid off, let go.

[81:04]

Well, at Zen Center, you won't get kicked out or fired, because Zen Center cannot make any decisions like that. They can never figure out how to do that. What? I don't know if that's a point. People happen to have to leave here. I don't know, Ms. Talichur. It's very difficult to get anybody out of here, let me tell you. But it's very easy, very easy to hurt somebody in this community. And people do not have permission in this community, do not have permission in this community to express themselves. They do not. When they do it, they get in trouble here, like everywhere else. If you expect to be able to express yourself with impunity, without some danger, that's just unrealistic. It's a nice dream, but it's not realistic. I express myself, when I express myself, I get in trouble. If I don't express myself, I don't get in much trouble.

[82:07]

I just feel dead. That's all. If I go to a work meeting and I ask, How many people would like blah-de-blah? I get in trouble for asking that question. If I go to work meeting, I say, how many people are opposed to blah-de-blah? I get in trouble for asking that question. Anything I ever do here with energy, I get in trouble. Almost anything. Once in a while, I do something with energy, and I don't get in much trouble. But I just don't hear about who got angry at me. But almost every time I express myself fully, somebody gets angry at me. And I'm on the verge of being kicked out of here a lot of the time. There's various groups of people that are trying to get me out of here. I'll amend it. But first of all, before I admit it, I want to say that before I was abbot, it was also true.

[83:08]

When Suzuki Roshi ordained me, he said, Tenshin is your name, that means red is red, and people will have a problem with that. This is only true of me. I'm the only person in this community that's true of. You know why that is? Because somebody told me I was a dragon. And I trust that person telling me of the dragon. So when I express myself, I'm a confirmed person. I'm a dragon. When dragons express themselves, they get in trouble. Now, are you going to be a dragon or not? If you're a dragon and you express yourself, you're going to get some trouble. But you've got to be willing to take trouble to be yourself. If you're only going to be yourself when there's no trouble, then you're a dead fish. That's all I'm saying. That's what I'm saying. And you people are doing well tonight, expressing yourselves very nicely. You're being yourself. And a lot of people in this class have gotten in trouble.

[84:10]

Dragons can eat trouble. That's right. That's what they eat. Now we know what you eat. You eat at trouble. And we have been giving each other private trouble in this class. There's various angry people in this room now. And if they were a little less under control, there would be some other things happening here than a habit. But we have certain boundaries in terms of what we do, so nobody's really gotten hurt. But there's some situations where nobody's watching and then they get you. Or where you get a whole bunch of people who have the same opinion, you get together in a gang and then go after them. This happens in this community, just like everywhere else in the world. It happens. It's normal. It's a normal thing. It's the way human beings keep human beings from being dragons. It's by threatening them and threatening them, and making sure that nobody gets this chance to express herself completely. And then nobody gets left out of dragon shit, and nobody gets to be one either.

[85:10]

Unless somebody stands up and says, well, I'm going to be myself anyway, even though, even if they get me more. You talk too much in there. Okay. Spread it out. One more comment from Carrie. Okay. Yeah, but there's two here. Yeah, two here. No, no, no, no.

[86:15]

Okay, so next week, I'm ready for K34. Next week, K34. The Xerox machine is broken, so we don't have copies for whoever doesn't have a copy, but it's not a big problem. It's a short case. Next week, though. The next piece of the last box I get. Next week we'll try to figure out how many meetings we've had.

[87:32]

Four. Yeah, I think I had four. I think this is number four. No, three. Three. I think it's four. Like I say, next week we'll spend the class figuring out how many meetings we've been there. And that'll be it. That'll be the case we'll do next week. Ready? It's good. It's good. It's good.

[88:01]

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