Well, we could spend a little bit more time on case eight, or we could go on to case nine. Ready to go on? You ready? Okay. And Fong. Fong. One day at Nanchuan's, the eastern and western halls were arguing over a cat. When Nanchuan saw this, he took and held it up and said, If you can speak, I won't cut it. The group had no reply.

[01:04]

Nan Chuan cut the cat in two. Nan Chuan also brought up the following incident with Zhao Zhou and asked him. Zhao Zhou immediately took off his sandals, put them on his head and left. Nan Chuan said, if you had been here, you could have saved the cat. Mm-hmm. Don't feel like that.

[03:51]

Don't feel like that. Are we not saving the cat right now?

[06:13]

I think that's a stuck toilet, or is somebody taking a shower? Should we be ready to let go of the concept of classic distance, and start to break past the wish? As the story you suggested yesterday, you said that we should be prepared to let go of our concepts and what precepts mean, and respond to what the situation has, to be able to let go and start fresh compassion. present situation.

[08:07]

How are you doing? Okay. Here's the cat. Does your question come from the point of this story? Do you know where your question comes from?

[09:15]

Where's it coming from? you know, what the values in our lives, that situation. So I guess it's kind of like a story. Nanchuan only asked for somebody to speak. Just one person to speak was enough. Now, do we have something at hand here that's in danger? Is there anybody here who doesn't have something that's held in danger right now?

[10:31]

If you do, please have the courage to say so. That doesn't have something in danger? Is there anybody here who doesn't have something that's in danger? Is there somebody here who doesn't have a cat being held up in your life right now? I don't feel right now at this moment in danger, like there's something in danger. Nothing's in danger? No, it seems to be. What about the Dharma? Suddenly something seems in danger. But how can the Dharma be in danger? I didn't say it was. So I still don't feel really that there's anything there. It doesn't have to be that the Dharma is in danger for you to feel like it's in danger. What's in danger is maybe that we're not going to realize it here tonight.

[11:48]

And we're going to miss our chance. Do you feel the danger about that? Yes, I feel the danger about that. Anybody else not have something that they're kind of thinking about? If you don't have, if you're not sharing this predicament, then why don't you say so? I'd like to know if you're, if we're all sharing basically some predicament that's, that's, uh, we're worried about. Anybody? What? Anybody who's not? You're not? Anybody who's not, who just doesn't see any problem? Or mystery? Does everybody see some problem here, some mystery here that you're concerned about?

[12:53]

Really? No, you don't? So where are you at? Have you received Buddhist precepts? No. No. So you don't have that problem with that or a mystery about that? So do you have any problem or anything you're concerned about? Yes, in a way, but I don't feel as though it's really a problem. It's okay that it's a problem. So if somebody holds a cat up and says, they'll kill it if you don't speak, you don't need to speak, you can let them kill it? No, that's... So what's... I mean, a cat's being held up in front of you right now, and it will be killed if you don't respond. Is that a problem for you? Are you worried about that? Yeah, if you were holding up a cat. And you don't see anything like that happening right now in your life, something being held up to you, that if you don't act, something will get hurt.

[14:05]

You don't see anything like that right now in your life? I appreciate your courage to not say yes before you see it. I'm not really sure. You're not sure? What brings you to Zen Center? The feeling that there's a need to be more awake. And is there any danger in your life that you not be awake? Is that a danger for you? That you miss this chance of being awake in this life? I never thought it was a danger. Do you think it would be harmful if you don't wake up? Do you think any karma might be created if you don't wake up?

[15:10]

Yeah, that's true. Karma might be created. That's true. So it would provide a danger to other people, but I think it would be more like a lack of anything. for me as an individual. It would create a danger for others, that's true. But for me, it would be just nothing. Well, would it be a missed opportunity for you? Yeah, it would be missed, but there would be nothing there. I wouldn't realize that there was even the opportunity. You might realize it later, though, when you lose it. For example, if you're not a human being anymore, you might realize what opportunity you had, right? Do you get a feeling for that? Yeah, I wasn't thinking that far ahead. Yeah, well, that's fine. You remember the last story about the head monk? He asked a question and then he kind of didn't quite answer it on the mark.

[16:29]

He kind of, we don't know exactly what he did, but... And then he got these 500 lifetimes he couldn't do a thing. He was blocked from realization for 500 lifetimes. So, I mean, that's the eighth case, right? You get asked a question and you answer it a little bit off. Your words come out a little bit off. And for 500 lifetimes... your path to liberation is blocked. Could that be the situation right now for us, one of us or all of us, each of us? Could something like that be the case? Could you see if something like that might be the case so that you might slip and make a mistake on that scale? Maybe not that scale, but... I mean, not that you're going to do something really horrendous, but even some small thing that you do, like what we say, a foot of water, a foot of water, a fathom of weight.

[17:30]

It may be that just not recognizing the significance of the situation, which is not a big error, it's not a big grievous thing, but it could have a big consequence. For example, getting into a car without checking the brakes. Doesn't seem like that evil a thing, right? How many times? Who checks the brakes of their car before they get in or before they drive? That's something that many times we do. We don't check the brakes. What if we got in a car and didn't check the brakes, but the brakes weren't there? Just a small example. So I don't exactly want to talk you into it. I just want to know if we're sort of in the same boat here. In other words, that we're in a boat and that there's some possibility here that we're going to, if we recognize that there's some possibility that we could miss the opportunity tonight, at this time, that we could miss this opportunity.

[18:34]

And that missing this opportunity could have long-term effects. Not to mention that if we miss this opportunity, we kind of get in the habit and maybe we miss the next one. So anyway, the teacher in this story saw some people doing some stuff, which doesn't seem that bad. They were arguing over a cat about something. We don't know what exactly. There was some debate going on. And in conjunction with this debate, cause and effect were occurring. And he wanted to know Number one, do they realize that at any given time, a significant event could be happening right now, and if you can speak about it, fine, but if you don't say anything, if you can't respond, then, well, he said he cut the cat, and nobody said anything. So he did. I just meant that they're having a debate and there's cause and effect going on.

[19:47]

Well, actually, the debate is causing it. Yeah. Well, my situation was that I spoke because I was afraid that if we were silent for too long, then something really amazing might happen, like truth might occur. And it was too frightening, so I spoke. That's a bad habit, I would say. Well, but you just said a good habit. Good habit. You confessed. Yes? This entire... this case has really always struck me with great horror.

[20:47]

Yeah. And I realized tonight that in some respects that... probably I've committed greater crimes, but I'm certain... Greater crimes than... Greater crimes than... and I'm sure... committed in cutting that cat. I realize that I committed that crime, but perhaps with less compassion behind it. But when I consider the case, I see the crime, but as to the compassion, I can only take other people's word for it. who said it's compassionate. Indeed. Indeed? Yes. Leaving aside what you said yesterday, finding it in this book of public record, the words and acts of our enlightened ancestors,

[22:01]

who dedicate their lives to the awakening of all beings, the entering of all larnagates, and the ending of all delusions. One can only assume that somebody believes that he's acting out compassion. And So these people in the story are people who have received Buddhist precepts, who have received the, have made a commitment to live an ethical life. And whether people have committed themselves to living an ethical life or not, many people Whether people have received Buddhist precepts or not, most people are involved in some commitment to ethics, and most people who are committed to a life of ethical commitment are hung up on ethics.

[23:10]

Also most people are somewhat committed to common sense. These Zen Buddhists are somewhat committed to common sense. All Buddhists participate in common sense, like most people do. Most people are stuck and imprisoned in common sense. So as Buddhist practitioners, we do not deny common sense. We embrace common sense. We do not deny the Buddhist precepts, the ethical precepts. We embrace them sincerely. But after embracing them, our concern is, how do you become free of this? How do you not become stuck in ethics and common sense? Yes. Yes. In case eight, I mean, this is all... I want to try and relate the two cases because I think that brings us back to what you just said just now about abrasions that get stuck.

[24:20]

Is it Bhajan speaks? Yeah. No, Bhajan did, well, we thought maybe he turned into a fox, but there was the great master turned into a fox after speaking, and in this case the monks don't speak, and the A cat gets cut, too. So, what do we do? Before we go any further, I would like to point out in the last story, Baijian realized that he was a fox and did not fall into being a fox. He awoken, he awoken, he became awake on realizing that he was a fox. When you don't realize that you're a fox, that you become a slave fox, a fox, you have to stay a fox because you don't realize you're a fox. That happened in the last story. Again, enlightened people are the ones who realize that they're constantly transgressing.

[25:31]

Yes? Yeah, right. But nobody's accusing him of holding the letter A while he held up the fox, or held up the cat. Nobody's accusing him of that. I haven't seen anybody accuse me of that. You can start tonight. Are you going to do it? Yes. On what basis are you doing that? Where are you coming from? He said, if you do not speak, I will do this. Yes. And no one spoke when we did that. If no one spoke when we hadn't done that, then perhaps he didn't have the A in it. Maybe he didn't do it. Then he didn't have it if he didn't do it? Yeah, right.

[26:36]

So tell us how this logic works. No, but can't you see it? No? Some people, some Zen teachers say that this story cannot be grasped rationally. or intellectually. But I think that Dogen would say that there is a rationality here. Not necessarily intellectual rationality, but there is a rationality here. But the rationality here is not common rationality. It is not the rationality of bondage, it is the rationality of liberation. What is the rationality here? What is the logic of this story? So Regina, what logic were you trying to point out just now? What is the logic of what you were trying to say? How do we come up with the appropriate response?

[27:51]

Okay, and what is the logic of how do we come up with an appropriate response? Where does that logic live? Can you find that the logic of how do we come up with the appropriate response? Yes. Yes. Yes. I feel like in all the characters in the story that I'm the most arguing. I'm the one that doesn't speak. And when I don't, I become the cat that's cutting too. Are you a non-chuan too? Yes. Holding up the cat? Yes. By not speaking, then I'm cutting too.

[28:51]

Okay, so those are the elements of how. What's the logic of the story? What's the logic of all that? Right? It relates to what you said about when the old guy asked for the turning word in a love story, he said one particular thing. It seemed what we discussed seemed to point to his intention and whatever was going on. Could you say that again now? The old guy. The old guy asked, can you give me a turning point? Yes. On this phrase. The guy gave him a good tiny word in it that made things clear logically, but... It was expressed that the same exact thing that put the guy into Fox 5.

[29:54]

That would have worked just as well. Maybe. What is the logic by which that could have worked as well? Just him being there, reacting to being in the situation and doing the right thing. regardless of what it was, regardless of the formula, would seem to logically be wrong. That's right. What is that logic? And where does it come from? I don't get why Jojo put... Don't worry about that yet. We're still back at the first part of the koan. Non-attachment. I'm trying. Non-attachment, yes. What is the logic of non-attachment? It's form and emptiness and emptiness is form. One is the other and the other is the other. Did you just get a little sloppy there for a second?

[30:59]

Form is emptiness and emptiness is form. Okay. Okay. Is that clear? That was clear, and then I thought you slipped there for a second. Did you get a little excited? Yeah, I definitely did. That was just warning you something. I said it's not attachment. I know, I know. So then I asked you, what's the logic of that, and you told me. Okay? Okay. And now I ask you again, what is the logic of that? What is the logic of form is emptiness and emptiness is form? And where does it live? It's inside yourself. It lives in relationships. It lives in both. Yeah. So, let's have the logic from the moment. Let's have the logic of the present, please. Speak it.

[32:17]

I can only smile at it. That's pretty good. If you could speak that smile. I'd like everybody to be ready to make a response from this place. Find this place, look for this place, and don't let my babble distract you from it. The burden of proof is not a heavy burden, but there is a burden. Yes? Could it just be the logic of the heart can't be explained any more than that? It's very sweet, but you're veering off. A comfortable one. Did you feel comfortable when you said that?

[33:22]

Yeah. It's not speaking that saved the cat. He said, you can speak. Nothing saved the cat. The cat was cut. But, I mean, later on, when he said, you could have saved the cat, that man didn't say anything. He didn't speak. He just left. Action. In other words, speaking tends to lead towards abstraction. When he said that you could have saved the cat to someone who didn't speak, that must have something to do with it. Yeah, it probably does. What does it tell you? Well, don't abstract so much that you get lost in your own thoughts and you're not able to respond to what the situation demands. I don't know if that putting the sandals on your head is... Don't get lost in your own thoughts. That sounds good, doesn't it? It sounds good. That's probably what it's about. And what is the logic of not getting, when you're not lost, when you're not lost in thoughts, what thought is there?

[34:26]

It seems to me like it's when you're at the center and everything is one. I don't know if that makes a lot of sense, but that's kind of what I get from that, also when they're all arguing. Okay. Now, when you say everything is one, I hear it a certain way. What do you mean by everything is one? Tell us about what it's like when everything is one. What it is like to me, or what I... Well, when there's no eastern and western hall, let's say, there's not two different things. There's not eastern and western hall.

[35:28]

They're just people, and the cat is the people as well. I guess non-dualism. When everything is one, okay, one way to hear that is everything means a lot of things. Yeah. Okay. Right. Now when a lot of things are one, okay, a whole bunch of different things are one. What is that? Who is that? When a lot of things are one. Who? Who?

[36:29]

Well, I guess that's me. Yeah, that's right. Yes. Shouldn't we deal with the cat? He's the one who has the problem, then, with the tap results. Let's deal with the cat. It's his life online. Offer. The life of the cat is online. Do you have anything to offer, now that you've... No. He has the top damage of dinosaur results. The cat is the most relieved. I mean, just looking at the story. It's the cat that has the problem. The other people can attack many other problems for the rest of their lives. So they're dealing with results. The cat doesn't seem to have a problem to me. Well, me neither. Yeah.

[37:29]

To me, it's the monks and the teacher that have the problem. Because they're arguing? Well, because they can't move. They can't respond. Yes, they can. They can't. No, the story says they can't respond. They weren't able to respond. The cat did respond. The cat didn't. It didn't. It seemed to me, and I read this thing, it seemed to me, I took his attachment. Here are these two groups of students, Harley, Wilbur, the cat, the attachment. He comes in and says, who can speak? Whoever can say something can save this cat. By the way, what kind of attachment do you imagine is going on here? Here? Oh, yeah, here. Well, here is better. What kind of attachment is going on here? I was talking about the other thing, but that's better. What kind of attachment is happening here? Is it easy for me to talk about the attachments?

[38:31]

Yeah, well, you're trying to figure this out. Okay, handle the one here, and then we can switch back to the one in the story. Even a harder one first. Yeah, that will help us understand the other one, I think. I don't know. I don't know if I can answer that. I didn't ask you to answer anything. I just asked you a question. What attachment is here? What attachment is here in this room? Speak for yourself. You don't have to know anything, just answer the question. You're not up for it right now? I'll come back. Yes? What attachment is here? To find a way to save the cat. To find a way to save the cat? That's what you're attached to? No, no, that's what I... What came to my mind when you asked this question.

[39:38]

What about you? What do you have to do? I have one story. What is it? It's this one and case number eight. It was teaching about compassion. And something like a mirror. So both persons did something really bad. no-nonsense, slapping the big teacher and cutting the cat's head off. And to me it seems as if they did it out of compassion to show them what still, or what they still got inside themselves, from the outside, the monks. So where are you at now? I think it's great to do.

[40:43]

You think what's great? That he can't get. To make him see. Because when he's a Buddhist and he took a priesthood, so for him to work with his priesthood. Yes. And do that in order to make, to help him. These are Buddhist monks, you know, they receive precepts and they're very strict about it usually. But it is actually considered violating the precepts of a bodhisattva if you have a chance to benefit someone and you don't because you adhere to precepts. you should receive the precepts, but then there's a thing called shilabharata paramarsha, which means adhering or grasping, holding on to a conventional understanding of the precepts. Conventional understanding means the way you understand them or the way I understand them.

[41:48]

Just what you brought up about not being possessive about anything and not being rigid in the way that you deal with precepts. If you can't bring this up, and disagree, you know, as monks or as individuals, if you can't speak about it to somebody asking a question, then you're not making any effort to understand one another. Or you're not making enough effort. You're not making enough effort. And that does... I mean, when you don't try to... Or you're making too much effort. Maybe it's because you're editing. You're not letting that exchange take place. And that's probably the biggest problem I can think of. Yeah, it's a big problem. How can you have a feeling or a sense on your own of what a precept means?

[42:57]

How can you have a feeling about what a precept means on your own? You already are doing that. You know how to do that, everybody does. But if your action comes from a not thinking place, maybe it is attachment somewhere deep back in the mind, this is the way I'm supposed to behave, it's not conscious thought. and that causes you to bump with somebody else, if you don't make an effort to work through that, then that's... If you don't make an effort to work through what? This bumping that you have because of your belief, your activity, and somebody else's... If you don't make an effort to work through your relationship with somebody? Yeah. Yes, then what happens? Isn't that killing the cat? Yeah, sure. Now, if that's a possible, if that's possibly one of the meanings of this, then I don't understand the next part of it, and I can't really connect it to that.

[44:03]

It's possibly one of the meanings, but I'm not talking about one of the meanings, I'm talking about the meaning. I'd like to know what the meaning is. The meaning. The meaning. You know, there's that story about Bodhidharma facing the wall. Yeah. And I keep thinking, he knows exactly... In that case he's asked to speak, and that's described as being an act of great compassion, which doesn't seem like an act of great compassion. When is he asked to speak and doesn't speak? Well, it's an emperor. When did that happen? It's not that he doesn't speak, it's true, he speaks. Yeah, he sure does. It's not that he doesn't speak, but he doesn't... sort of indulge the emperor by carrying out a long explanation of what's going on, so he just leaves. So, in some ways that seems like not a very nice thing to do, but it's also very compassionate.

[45:04]

Yeah. And in this case... And he kept doing other things like that, too, other compassionate things. It seems like Nanchuan, in this case, does also do something that seems, in a conventional way, could not be a very nice thing to do. He kills the cat. But actually, it's very compassionate. So what comes to mind for me is that... What's compassionate about it? About? What was compassionate about him killing the cat? Well, I think that... For me, I think that he's showing amongst what they're doing. What were they doing? They were being attached. And did they see that they were attached? When he killed the cat? Yeah. When he cut the cat in two. I don't know. We don't know. Does anybody know whether they got it or not?

[46:06]

They got it. One person thinks they got it. You hope they got it. It's not compassionate if they didn't. It's not compassionate if they didn't. Is that right? No, that's okay. If they didn't get it, it's still compassion. Really? Yeah, I think so. Is it greater compassion if they get it than if they don't get it? It's no better. It's luckier. It's luckier. Are we? I'm not trying to figure it out. Don't speak for me. I'm trying. What am I trying to do, Pam? Well, that's a subtopic. What am I trying to do? Ken, do you see what I'm trying to do? Do you see what I'm trying to do? What? Well, from my point of view, is that when I read it, the cat represents the middle way. And it didn't matter whether at this point they couldn't speak because they couldn't see the middle way.

[47:08]

Okay, so he's going to cut the middle way in two if you don't speak. What are you going to do? The middle way can't be cut in two. Yeah, right. The middle way cannot be cut in two. But if somebody says, I'm going to cut the middle way in two if you don't speak, what are you going to do? And what are you going to do? You speak? What are you going to say? Don't do that. What? Don't do that. What do you want me to say now? After I said the male wave? I want you to speak. I want people to speak. My spoken word was that the calf represents the male wave. If I hold a cat up and say, I'm going to cut this cat in two, if you don't speak, what are you going to say? Don't do it.

[48:09]

Don't do it? What are you going to say? Do you want me to hold a cat up? What are you going to say? Yeah, okay. Okay. The cat. What are you going to do? Who's going to be the cat? What do you think? Hurry up. If you're done, you get another chance later. I want more people to tell me how much... There's a lot of dead cats around.

[49:12]

I'm trying to practice Sazan. with you. That's what I'm trying to do. And this is a non-dual practice, so we can sit here and talk like we're talking. It's okay. We can say everything everybody says is fine. No problem. But still, I'm asking and I'm looking and I'm driving for Zazen, true Zazen, right in this room with all of us doing it together. That's what I'm trying to do with you. And I'm asking you again and again, is this the point of your life? Is this the reason why you were born? Are you sitting in that spot right now? And if anybody's there, I'd like to check to see what you have to say from that place. That's what I'm doing. That's what this koan is.

[50:14]

Yes? If there's nothing to attain, why did he turn the wheel? In response. But he originally, he said, you move, you speak. He put it outside himself, teaching. That's, why did he, what was his reason for doing that? Huh? That's my question. Do you want me to tell you the answer? Yes, I can. Oh, you can try. I can try. Because he wants people to wake him up. Yeah, but that's a grasping desire, is that not? There's nothing to attain. He wants people to wake him up. Oh, excuse me. You mean, why do you say excuse me? Because he wants people to wake him up. Yeah. It's still right, what you said.

[51:15]

Okay. Thank you. Yes. Where are you coming from right now, Stuart? Right over here. How is it there? Very uncomfortable. Okay. Would you move your arms, please? Manchon is a dangerous man. And having a man like that invite you to speak Yeah. Isn't exactly like having just anyone invite you to speak. No. I'm trying asking you to speak. So that creates a greater level of difficulty even than the ordinary one. As we've seen tonight in this room, just the general invitation to speak in a situation where we know where we have to speak can sometimes paralyze the tongue, the double mind.

[52:24]

But to have a fellow like Manchuan say, speak. Yeah. that could profoundly affect people. They might not even know what would happen. They might even be afraid that if they spoke, that he directly would cut the cat in half. Yeah. Anyway, they're afraid, right? People are afraid. We're afraid. When I read the story, I am afraid. It's a frightening story. It's a frightening story, and we're in a frightening situation. If there's anything to be afraid of, This is what to be afraid of. And, yes? Isn't the cat, I feel like the cat is always being held up. That's right, the cat's always being held up. And I have to make an appropriate, hopefully I will make an appropriate response by not to attach. Yes, please. Okay, so the cat's being held up now. What's your response? I would say stop.

[53:27]

Too slow. Well, it would be a word. You had another answer before that one. You hesitated, didn't you? There was something there before that. Well, I think that the cat's already being held up. That was good. That's good, I agree. Yeah, I agree. Okay, the cat's being held up, right? You said so. That's just the situation we're in now. Oh, I'm speaking. Yes, you are. Is this your response? Is this your response? Fine. Wait a minute, don't go back there. Stay where you were before when you made that response, okay? Don't go back to not being there. Do you understand? Do you see where you were when you were talking? And then you went back to the place you were before. Can you see that? One's the kind of place where you wake up and where all things come together to make one.

[54:38]

See the difference? There it is. You did it. I mean, it happened. Wait a second now. I want to know if this is okay, what we're doing here. Okay? Okay, now some people are being kind of quiet. And if you give us a chance, we can interact. So please, the ones who haven't been talking so much, come and play. Please, yes. The logic here is paradox. The logic is that nothing seems to be what it seems to do. Why do you call that a paradox?

[55:44]

Because logical mind wants to be logical. Yeah, but that's not a paradox, is it? That a logical mind wants to be logical? That's quite common, isn't it? All right, that's common. What's uncommon here? To be unexpected, like samples on the head. Yeah, so it's quite common for a logical man to want to be logical, right? Logical mind to be logical means logical mind to be logical the way it usually is logical, right? Logical mind to hold to its usual logic, that's quite common, right? Right. Okay. What's the new logic in this case? That anything is possible. And what is the logic of anything is possible?

[56:50]

Then it all sits down to truth. If I don't have any expectations of what's going to happen, then anything can happen. What do you mean by not having any expectations? What do you feel? Excited. A lot of this was built way over my head. When I read that story this afternoon, my first response was, I mean, I was appalled by it, but then it was, why didn't the monks say anything?

[57:56]

as I'm sitting here trying to understand this idea of what I hold to be, what my common sense holds to be true, and then thinking about trying to let go of that in the situation precipitously, if my daughter was out on the street and a car was coming with me, I don't have to think about that, even though it's my common sense response. I'm going to rush out and I'm going to pull her away from the car. In the same way, I don't understand... I have a question. Is it really common sense to go and pull your daughter out? It's instinct. It's instinct. It's not common sense, I don't think. If you talk about why you did it, or what's good about it, or what you should do or something, you might say it's common sense. But getting your daughter out of the street is not really common sense, is it? If it wasn't common sense, what would you do? Well, it's just elemental.

[59:00]

I mean, I don't know what label to put on it. Even if it wasn't common sense, you'd still do it. Even if it was breaking the precepts, you'd still do it. Yeah. I don't think it's common sense. But it's not some... I don't see it as some understanding that's beyond my conventional view. I mean, it's... Oh, you don't? It's what to do. I think it is. I think it's an understanding that's beyond your conventional view. Because you could easily do that with no conventional view. It is beyond your conventional view. It's... And to do that, your conventional view is not getting in the way either. I don't know, you have conventional views probably, everybody does. Why not? It would be kind of cruel of you not to have conventional views. But pulling a Dara Lestri is not a conventional view, it's an action. which doesn't need to be based on conventional views.

[60:02]

Now, if you hesitated and then started to think, now, let's see, most people would go into the street, and this is my daughter, and probably people would think I'm weird if I don't do it, so maybe I should do it. But, you know, actually, I don't feel like doing it. I'd like to see her get run over. Now, then to sort of reason with yourself that way and get yourself into the street, that might be a conventional view. But there's something very clear, if there is something very clear about that kind of thing, Yes, everything's one. That's an example of everything's one. It happens. And that always happens. But you can't give, you can't, somehow we don't seem to be able to give examples of everything we do throughout the day being like that.

[61:07]

But that's the way everything, everything is like pulling your daughter out of the street. You can say it's common sense to pull your daughter out of the street and you can say it's common sense to brush your teeth, but it's not. But it's not like it isn't common sense and common sense is violated either. It's not violating common sense. What's actually happening is free of common sense. Common sense is not violated. Sometimes common sense can't get a hold of what's happening. It falls off the edge of it. In the case you gave, it doesn't. In the case we have here, common sense doesn't work. But there is a sense that does work. And what is that sense? It's something like the sense that works for getting your daughter out of the street. That also doesn't violate common sense. But you can't make sense of that by common sense. It won't really work. There's something much more interesting than that going on here. It's called life.

[62:08]

This story... is abhorrent because it's directing us someplace that means we have to drop attachment to common sense and attachment to precepts. Not drop the precepts, not violate the precepts, not violate common sense, just let go of it and do what we have to do with no choice. You're forced to act moment by moment with the inexorable force of pulling a child out of the street. I'm thinking of a story all evening that I saw during the Vietnam War where guerrilla theater group gathered a crowd of people and they had a little duck, something like the fishers, and a gas can that was marked napalm. And they were giving lectures sort of on napalm, how it was being used in Vietnam, what it was made of chemically, how it stuck to living tissue and burned. And during this talk, they would say from time to time, and before we're done, we're going to show you what napalm does to a living organism.

[63:21]

on this dog? That's what everyone thought. And before 20 minutes were gone, a lot of people in that crowd had gone off in a hurry to get campus police and various people to stop them from burning this dog up. And when the police finally came and broke up the theater group, they said, this is what we wanted you to see, how fast you could react to saving a life when you thought it was threatened right in front of you. And of course, this is what you want to get. You should feel this way about these human beings somewhere across the world. Somehow this makes me think of this story. This was life in front of them. Like the great matter of life and death right here. So right now. Who's going to save it right now? What are you going to do to save it? How are you going to protect this animal from being burned up or being cut?

[64:28]

What are you going to do? Hmm? Yeah, well, you could go call the police. I don't think anyway we'll do it. You can say that now, but in the circumstances, it wasn't any word. It was the word that would come at that time. And it wouldn't be just any word. It would only be one word. It had to be one word from each person, whatever person, whoever spoke, it would be one word. It wouldn't be any old word. It's a definite word, and that's why it can get stuck in your throat. Are you suggesting it's only one? No, not the same word for everybody. It's the immediacy, isn't it? Yeah. It's letting that word come out of your throat. It's letting that action come out of your body under these circumstances. Yeah.

[65:30]

Yeah, go ahead. What did you say? I said no. You said no? You also twiddled your thumbs. And to add things to the verse... So the other thing is, I'm thinking that nonchalant cutting the cat is a practice of lessons without delay. I see. I'm thinking as we're talking that Nachuan's cutting the cat in two is practicing dustness without delay. How about the monk's not answering? Is that practicing dustness without delay? Practicing that, delaying that. But I can't say. My feeling is not. It seems to me to be, if you don't practice, there are dire results.

[66:35]

It seems to you that way? Yes, it seems to me. And what are you going to do about that? I'll try not to be like the monks. What are you going to be like? I don't know in my sandals, but I'll put them on my head and put them here. Yeah, what are you going to be like now that you see this? Try to be open. Try to be, not try, but just let me out. Give us an example. That's good enough. Come on, folks that haven't spoken. How's this going for you? Can you follow this? Is the English okay? What's happening? Well, I was imagining my life. This case was like a mirror.

[67:58]

Mm-hmm. And everybody could see themselves in the mirror. Yeah, right. What did you see? And I thought that I would like to become one with the cat so I can respond in the way he was feeling, it was feeling. Mm-hmm. What about Nanshwan? Don't you like him? Are you going to be one with non-swan too? Yeah. What about the monks? Two. Everybody? Yeah. Going to be one with the whole situation? Yeah. You want to do that? Or maybe not. In a situation like this, what are you most interested in? What's most interesting to you? In a situation like this, what's most interesting to you?

[69:09]

In that case? No, in this case. In this case? In this situation, what is most interesting to you? What do you have to tell the people? Me? Nothing. You're ready now, huh? Yeah, walk bare. Walk bare? Walk bare. And then what? Why is that money there? Carry what I carry. If my shoes carry me, should I take my shoes off? Carry it. Did you take your shoes off? A little. What bear?

[70:12]

My cold face. Is that where you're at now? Uh-huh. And what's it like? Tingling. Tingling? Can you act from there? Dead doing. Is there confidence? Yeah. Is there doubt? Yeah. Less. Dead cat. What's a phonograph record? A needle. You sit in the old place and I sit in the baby place. Are you comfortable?

[71:19]

Yeah. Can you keep walking from here? How are you doing? How are you doing? Uncomfortable? Okay. We hear you. That's fine. I know. What? I didn't say it was a good feeling. What's good? What do you think I think is good? You want me to tell you? Yeah. Do you want me to tell you? Do you want me to tell you what I think is good? Yeah.

[72:23]

What is good is you talked. You told us what was happening. That's good. Do you agree? Do you disagree? What do you feel besides uncomfortable? Suspense? That's a good English word. Suspense. Yes? I'm still really stuck on the question Regina asked, which is how do we know what the right response is? Because... If you just respond in a way that just what's in front of you, like Jaojo did, and he would have been able to save the cat, why what the monks did also can save the cat?

[73:29]

That's just how they can respond. And they can't talk, and that's their response. So I'm kind of feeling like, well, why can't that sit? Yeah, well, that's similar to looking at that last story when so-and-so said, does not fall into cause and effect and got in big trouble, right? And then later he asked the bhajan, bhajan said, does not obscure cause and effect. And that released him. And bhajan didn't get in any trouble for saying that. Matter of fact, Obviously, it helped this man a great deal. Okay? But... I, along with others, proposed to you that he could have said... Why? He could have said exactly the same thing. He didn't. But those exactly the same words could have been helpful. So it's not the words. It's not the words not falling into cause and effect.

[74:32]

It's something about... the way those words work and the way the person says them is something about whether there's attachment. Right? So you never know before. You never know before. So in this case it's a general a general policy in Buddhist teaching is you don't know whether it's right or wrong before or after. The fact that he the fact that bhajan said this and the story says he was awakened does not mean that we know something about what that response is. It's not a matter of knowing or not knowing, it's a matter of having no doubt. You cannot know or not, you cannot, you can neither know nor not know and still be certain. So we're assuming that the monks had some doubt because he cut the card. Um, I'm not assuming that.

[75:36]

I'm not assuming that. What I'm doing is I'm trying to see what is the point of this story without assuming anything. Just see the point of the story without assuming anything. Just look at it and see it. Like in mathematics, without some kind of like givens, or axioms that you can use, and then already we have many axioms and givens all coming to us every moment, lots of them coming. Then, now, what is the point of this story? Well, what I want to just, what confuses me again is that he said if you can speak, and so they should have spoken, or said a word. Usually we don't have someone telling us what to do. And Zhao Zhou, Noah told Zhao Zhou what to do, and he did the quote-unquote right thing. That's right. He did the quote-unquote right thing.

[76:44]

He and his teacher, he and his teacher, those two people felt certain at that time. It looks like that way. But whether they did or not, the point is that I think, I feel a strong imperative to to simply see what the point of this is. Now, we can discuss this story quite a bit, okay? As a matter of fact, there's a commentary here, and an introduction, and a verse, and a commentary on the verse. You can read it. Also, this story appears in the Blue Cliff Record and in the Gateless Gate. You can read it, and it's fun to read it. I read it myself. But after reading it, what I'm led to feel more and more about this case is that our discussions, although I do not want to stop them, as a matter of fact, to stop them would be dualistic and kind of inhuman.

[77:49]

We should discuss it. And yet, I feel that there's something very, very simple here And it doesn't mean that we can't discuss this case and bring up all kinds of interesting things and not understand many things, that's fine, but there's something extremely simple and this story will only be satisfied by something very simple. And it is a unique thing for each person and it's only one thing for each person. And there can be certainty about it. And this story, more than most, It makes me feel that nothing will be satisfying here except something very simple. Larry? Yeah, I get committed to this. This seems to be the time to talk. Every time I think about it, I get really uptight. The way I heard the story was originally, not originally, but just a version of the story, was that the monks were arguing over the possession of the cat, and they wanted to have it over here, and they wanted to have it over there.

[79:02]

Unlikely. Oh, I see. Okay. And... That's the Solomon story. And... What's his name? Nanchuan. Nanchuan. South Springs. I see. And he picked up the cat, immediately cut it in two, and then took one half and gave it to one wing, and the other half to the other wing, and said, here, now you both have... Yes, okay. Where are you going? Oh, you heard that version? Oh. Well, now what should we do? Okay. How do you feel? Great. There you go. You came into it. The combination of your hand being raised and Pam scratching her head is great.

[80:06]

Yes, go ahead, Christina. I just had a flash when you were talking. If you were to hold up the count and you were to say that, I would have faith that you would not do that. Let's get a cat. I just took the story and put it. If you were Namjoon and if you were to say that, I would have had faith in you at the moment you would not do it. You mean you think I'm a bluffer? No. No, it's not bluffing. You're being who you are. No, that's who you are. That's the kind of person you are. That's the way you feel about me. Okay, now we got you. That's good. You've got me. We've all got you.

[81:09]

We've all got you. You're safe. Yeah. You're safe. You get to be you. That's great. Yeah, I know. So how are you? It's a good feeling. Yeah. So you can keep doing that now. It feels good here. Yeah. And they're all going to help you do that. So now what are you going to do? Give us an example of you, a little sample. Don't look around. Okay, I'll take one of those at this point to prove how I feel, put it on my head, and then at that point, every second, I see things differently. I view and I feel differently when I turn around. You're getting really close. Can you feel she's getting warm, getting close to herself, right? You're letting yourself be yourself. Good. It's good. Yeah. Yes. Well, I think, because I didn't come to study, but... You didn't really what? Come to study this.

[82:11]

I just heard this story yesterday and then today. What did you come for? You come for? Why did you come here? Oh, no, no, no. I said I haven't been studied. Oh, you haven't been studied in this case? No. And I heard first time yesterday. Okay. Yeah. And I, first of all, after all this discussion, and I have something, I don't know if I can explain them very clearly. I think, number one, it's a very simple story. that I think the whole discussion is like, I think everybody made the story even more complicated than it is. We're trying to make it more complicated than what that is, but I think that's good. I think that almost like meditating and, you know, get to, I think almost like the story is like a tool to open up your mind. Yeah. And I also think from, you know, I'm always very practical.

[83:15]

So I think the story was kind of telling you in real life situation, a lot of the situation is like, Like there are so many people says, what do we do? What can we do to save the cat? I think a lot of it in real life, the situation is you don't even have time to ask what we do will be right to save the cat. The situation is either right or wrong. You have to do something. And if you do something, the chance may be 1% to save the cat, maybe 90% to save the cat. But no matter what, if you do something, you might save the cat. The worst thing is the cat will be caught in a trap. But just do anything, and the cat might be saved 90% or 1%. Nobody knows, but you just have to do something. I don't know. I'm not. Did I say something?

[84:33]

Did I do something? You did just fine. Could I have done better? Until I try again. You're a kitty kitty. Which one was better, the first one or the second one? First one. Okay. I never listen to critics. I just want to say that I think it was, it is a very good story.

[85:46]

Best Child Challenge. Make me think how much I'm willing to stand up for my beliefs and to really protect my truth. My darkness. Uh-huh. It makes you wonder. Yeah. I think it is simple. You think what? It is very simple. I've been willing to, in each moment of my life, to really put my Dharma first place. Uh-huh. What is your Dharma? Right now? Yeah. My Dharma? To believe in the truth, to believe. My meditation, my path is my time. What I'm doing here is mine. I'm going to say one.

[86:51]

To me, what Narshan was doing specifically did something. He could have been asking. or was, in essence, saying, what are you going to do? There's always a cat out to everybody, always saying, what are you going to do? It's going to get cut. Another point to ask, what are you going to say? So, you know, if you say anything, I would cut the cat. But the reason why he decided to cut the cat, to me, instead of just saying, you guys blew it, but I'll say this cat because I like it and I don't want to break the piece up. was because he thought he might, he said when I was trying to get cats later on, that they might cause innumerable cats to get cut if he doesn't do that right there. I don't get, Sam was not a cat today. laughter [...] Yeah, that seems reasonable, doesn't it?

[87:57]

Eva, how are you doing? How does this all look to you? It makes you come again? What are you? Trying to be in.

[88:23]

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