So, Charlie, I mentioned that this story is in the transmission of the light by Kavan, and it's also discussed by Dogen in a chapter called Sesheen Sesho in the Shobogenza. Charlie has it on the computer, so he printers it out. But here's his instruction, which I thought would wonderfully surprise you. the outside and this is all and this means this means importance condition

[01:01]

or circumstances, or like when we say causes and conditions. This is the character they usually use for conditions. But it also means circumstances and it also means stories. So Bodhidharma said, outside, outside, and then he said, This character, which, remember that character we saw recently? What does that mean? Breath. The character means breath. And to breathe. But guess what else it means? It means to stop. To cease. I mean, desist. Rest.

[02:04]

So he said, outside, stop all involvements. Or outside, cease all involvements. Or outside, give a rest. Give it a rest. Outside, give it a rest. Give what a rest? Give all stories a rest. And stories means... Everything that you see is your current story. But I thought it was so interesting that the word that he used for stop, he could have used some other word for stop, but the word that he used also means breath. Breathe. So nobody translated it. I never saw a footnote like this. Nobody said, we're translating this as outside, give all stories a rest, or outside, you'll cease from all involvements.

[03:10]

And then the footnote says, you could translate this as outside, breathe all the stories. Outside, breathe all conditions. Because it's kind of like, in a way, it's a similar instruction. To let go, you know. To breathe all your stories. In other words, usually we have our stories. We don't think our stories are something to breathe. We think they're something to grasp. Because they're true, right? Just like when we're breathing, we think breathing is our idea of breathing. That's why when we're focusing on our breathing, but then we find ourselves thinking of Hawaii, we think we're thinking of something other than our breathing. Because we think our breathing is this fixed thing, rather than our breathing is the character of the breathing, the other character of breathing is everything that's happening is actually this chi or this energy.

[04:15]

So whatever you're looking at is actually a transformation of your energy and the breath. Anyway, I thought that was kind of interesting. Outside, breathe all conditions. Or outside, cease all conditions. Let all conditions cease. And then the next line is... Oh, the next line is... Chinese goes that way, but I wrote on this side. The next one is... Inside, right? You tell me inside, right? Inside what? What? Inside... Inside what? Inside mind. Inside mind, no coughing or sighing.

[05:30]

And the character is this character. This character, which means asthmatic breathing, choked, gasping, panting. So none of that in the mind. Again, my little quick etymology of this character is his character has a radical for mouth, has a radical for mountain. And this radical, which means like pertaining to or in the situation of. So sort of the situation of the mouth, there's a mountain sitting on top of your mouth. So that's outside. Give up all your stories. When you see somebody, give up your story about the person.

[06:33]

Keep giving up your story about the person. Breathe away your story about the person. When you think about yourself, give away your story yourself. Breathe it away. Some people have some stories about themselves around here. And those stories that they have vary, but when they hold the stories, that is a problem for them. Do you know what I mean? People have to hold their story by themselves. Problems, so you say, let go of those stories, cease all those stories, and then inside, do further work. of having your mind become such that there's no, it's cared for in such a way that there's no constriction there. So it's not, you're working with your mind, not so much in terms of your stories, but more in terms of the way the mind functions. You're trying to see how the mind functions in such a way that it doesn't cause a choking of your life,

[07:40]

life. So that's his instruction. And I just wanted to also, I think I did say this before, but in that chapter on Sashin Sesho, which can be translated as sort of, in a kind of heavy-duty way of saying expounding mind and expounding nature. But you can also translate it as talking about mind and talking about nature. So after Dogen introduces this story, he says that the second ancestor was always talking about mind and talking about nature. Now, who is he talking to? What's the matter?

[08:52]

He's talking to his students? That's a good guess. Us? Yeah. What else is he talking to? Himself? Himself, yeah. Anybody else you might have been talking to? Buddha? Buddha, yeah. And who is the local Buddha? On his teacher, yeah. So he's talking to Bodhidharma and himself. He wasn't yet teaching, but when he was teaching he probably was too. So Bodhidharma gives him this instruction that he was always talking about mind and nature to himself and to Bodhidharma. but he did not realize the essence of the truth. And the expression there, I think is nice, it actually says, you did not realize or you did not attain, the character is Shokai.

[09:54]

Shokai means the character we use for verification or realization. And so it does that. He did not prove or verify, and kai is yakisando kai, which means demerge or agree. The merging of difference and unity, that kai, the agreement, by difference and unity. So he didn't realize agreement is what it actually says. It means agreement with... Bodhidharma or agreement with Buddha. He didn't realize the same state as the Buddha even though he was applying the Buddhist teaching that was given to him by his teacher. But he was always talking about it. He was always talking about the mind and he was always talking about nature.

[10:59]

When it said he didn't realize it, it means he didn't realize it for seven years. He did finally realize it. One day, suddenly, he understood. And he went to Bodhidharma and said, this disciple doesn't have any No, this disciple has stopped all involvements, he said. And then Bodhidharma sort of understood that he... that he... had awakened. He didn't question him deeply. He just said, you're not getting into nihilism, are you? And he said, no. And he said, and then Bodhidharma said, well, what is the state of the disciple? And he said, I'm always clearly aware and no words reach it.

[12:09]

And then Bodhidharma said, this is mind, this mind that a clear awareness that no words can reach, this is the mind of all the Buddhas, have no doubt. So here's this kind of like world, this mind with the teacher and the disciple realize which really no words reach, and yet we work on this together, and we talk about mind and nature. So last night when some, I think somebody asked Diana something about how come she came to Zen, and one of her, I guess her response was she kind of liked the simplicity of it. And I thought, ah, where is it Tazara's students? They probably like the simplicity of Zen, too, and yet I come down here and start talking to them and we thought, well, like you saw, I told you you were in service this morning.

[13:12]

I read that little chapter there on mind and nature. And now we're going to be talking about mind and nature. It may not seem so simple. The simplicity may. may elude you for the rest of the practice period unless you wear earplugs and sunglasses, heavy sunglasses. So in some sense, I'm bringing the teaching out in such a way that it could look complicated. But I'm telling you that part of the reason why I'm doing this is because Bodhidharma and the second ancestor are always talking about mind and nature. So I do too. I always talk about mind and nature. And you people come and talk to me about mind and nature too, don't you? And some people Zen and otherwise have thought, even around the time of Dogen, that talking about mind and nature really didn't help understand the Buddha Dharma.

[14:24]

And some people, there are, I think there are paths in Buddhist tradition where you don't seem to be talking about mind and nature. You don't seem to be. But, you know, you could say whether you really are, you just don't say so. Like... learning to dance or learning to sing, you're actually talking about mind and nature. But the Dogen is strongly recommending us this practice of talking about or discussing mind and nature. He says, again, right in his fascicle, he says that talking about mind and nature is the universal basis of Buddha's truth, by virtue of which every Buddha and every ancestor is realized, unless there is discussion of mind and nature.

[15:34]

Buddha ancestors, do not turn the wonderful wheel of the Dharma. Do not establish the mind and the training. And do not realize the truth simultaneously with the whole earth and all such beings. There's a, there's a, um, koan, twelve. You have it right there? Behind your head there, Eric? Is that it? Number 12. I think it's Dishan. Some monk comes to visit him. I think Shushan. Huh? No? 20? 19? So a monk comes to visit him and he says, where you been? He says, the band in the south of China. He said, how's Buddhism in the south? And he says, there's a lot of discussion going on. And then he says, how does that compare with me planting rice and planting and cooking rice?

[16:48]

It's 12? Or Diza. Diza. So there's that side of Zen, too. So how does this discussion of mind and nature compare with working in the garden and making lunch? That's the end of the story, I believe, isn't it? What is it? What? Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. That's right. So the monk says, in the south there's lots of discussion, and then he says, how does that compare to me planting rice and making lunch? And the monk says, well, what are you going to do about the world? And he says, what do you call the world? So my sort of current interpretation for you of that would be, in one sense, people think, you know, just being in this valley and working in the garden and making lunch for the monks, how does that take care of the world's problems?

[18:04]

Don't we have to be doing some more extensive study like understand the mind and, you know, master all the Buddhist teachings in order to really interact with the whole world. But then he says, what do you call the world? Which, in other words, gets you right back into discussing mind and nature. But somebody else could say, no, I really think what's helping the world is to make lunch for people. We should open a soup kitchen. That's how to help the world, like Diana used to do. Well, yes, that's right. But how does that help the world? So then again, I think our practice is a combination of making lunch and discussing mind and nature while we're making lunch. And some of the people in the kitchen, I understand, are having a little difficulty discussing mind and nature while they're working in the kitchen. Well, it's hard to sometimes keep studying while you're trying to get lunch out and understand how lunch is discussing mind and nature.

[19:09]

It's not impossible, but in other words, to have this magnanimous mind while you're trying to accomplish tasks, a mind which is very big and includes all kinds of things at the same time, and where you're making lunch, but really what you're doing is you're balancing and being unmoved by enticements. Are there some enticements when you're making lunch? Huh? You don't see any enticements? Anybody making lunch today? Are there any enticements in the process of making lunch? Can anybody think of any? Yes, he works in the kitchen. They can. They don't know about the enticements. It's easy when you're outside the kitchen to see the enticements. The smells, the colors, anything else? Praise, yeah. Anything else? The other people in the kitchen, anything else? The menu posted.

[20:12]

The menu posted? Yeah. The menu's an enticement. Anything else? Getting lunch out. That's a big one. The kitchen's been very enticed to get lunch out. Huh? Yeah. Time's an enticement. These are enticements. These are conditions. These are stories. Lunch, time, menu. You're going there and there's enticements all over the place, you know. And then there's oppression. You know, you better get it out on time, otherwise, you know, everybody's going to be really upset and starving. I don't know, you know. So there's, wouldn't it be great to get it out on time and have it be great? And then there's, what if it's late? And they think we're blah, blah, blah. We'd let them down. They hate us. So the kitchen's got big enticements and oppressions daily.

[21:14]

The job, though, in the kitchen is not really the enticements. And the oppression isn't the job. That's just the job site. That's just what's going on in the room in terms of what's arising and existing. The job is to have this mind which doesn't get swayed by that stuff. But it's hard, right? It's hard to keep on that track of not getting swayed by enticements and oppression. And Bodhidharma basically said, learn how to do that. Learn how to not get caught up in these enticements and oppressions. And praise and blame. And then in addition, learn how to care for ongoing working of your body in such a way that you don't constrict or wrinkle or crimp it at all. And this is how to make your mind like a wall.

[22:19]

In other words, a mind that when it interacts with your breath doesn't hurt it. a mind that when it interacts with your vitality doesn't constrict it or make it sick. This is all trying to learn and making you learn like a wall. And this is the way we enter the Buddha way. That's what Bodhidharma said. And then, again, the second ancestor spends many years trying to understand how to apply that teaching. He's talking with himself and Bodhidharma about it. And I'm... trying to carry on the tradition of talking to you and me about this practice. So this is me talking about a Zen story, and that's that. Now I'm moving to, this is called my, well, one sentence called my difficulty lecture.

[23:27]

or my introduction to the practice of the deep perfection of wisdom. In one sense, it's a horror story. In our sense, it's like trying to encourage you to do something difficult. or not encouraging you to try to tell you that there's no more difficulty studying wisdom, especially of the profound variety. She reminded me of a little bit.

[24:30]

When I start talking about forms, when I get to the form talk, there's going to be four lectures this morning. There's nine in the second one, and the second one is about difficulty in studying and how it's normal. Rather than, I mean, it's okay to have an easy time. Matter of fact, one time in this valley, I noticed that I was having an easy time. And it surprised me because I hadn't been having an easy time since the time I came to Zen Center. As soon as I came to Zen Center, from the start, I had a hard time. I found it hard from the beginning. That's why I came to Zen Center is because I found practicing Zen meditation difficult from the beginning. From the start. Did you?

[25:32]

Why would I start something difficult? I started it because I heard that it was a training program to become totally cool. I heard about these people that were really cool, like Hakuen in that story I told you a couple days ago. I heard that he and those other people that were like that, they did this training. So I started to do the training and I found it was hard. I liked it when I was doing it, but I always wanted to not do it because it was hard. So I thought if I went to Zen Center where other people were doing that and also where there was a teacher in that very difficult training, then it would be, I would be able, not necessarily easier, but I would be able to do it more than once in a while. So I went to Zen Center and in fact it was easier to do the hard practice when I was doing it with other people. When I was by myself in Minnesota, it was unusual for a person to do this hard thing So if I didn't do it, nobody would say, how come you didn't get up this morning and practice meditation?

[26:35]

I wanted to go someplace where it would be unusual not to get up in the morning and practice meditation. So I went to live across the street from Bush Street, from Sokoji on Bush Street with other people. So it was normal to get up early in the morning and go over there and sit, but it's hard to get up early in the morning. Have you noticed that sometimes? It's hard to get up early, to get up before five o'clock and then go across. Going across the street wasn't so hard because it was just across the street and it wasn't, in San Francisco, it's not as cold as Tassajara. Going across the street wasn't so hard. And then sitting was hard because I was trying to sit in full lotus. And so I was in my early 20s. It wasn't that hard. But anyway, it was sort of hard. But I got up and did this hard thing every morning. And then it just kept being hard for a couple of years. And then I was down here at Tazahara, and the hardness went away for a little while. And I thought, uh-oh, is that okay?

[27:40]

So I went to Suzuki Rush, and I said, basically, it's not hard. It's at a throne. And he said, the practice may not be hard for you now. Or, you know, now the practice may not be hard for you. But it's okay. So it's okay if it's not hard. Some of you are not having a hard time. It's not necessarily that you're in some evil state. The other side is also true that if you're having a hard time, it doesn't mean you're in an evil state. So... I think myself, you know, a lot of practices actually are not so hard for me off and on. Like thinking about being kind to people, when I think of that, it's not that hard for me. And a lot of you are doing a lot of compassionate activity here and outside this valley. And I just don't hear that you're having a hard time doing it when you're doing it.

[28:41]

But wisdom practices generally seem to be hard for people. It says, in our translation, it says, when Avalokiteshvara was practicing deeply the Prajnaparamita, that's an okay translation, but you could also translate it, when Avalokiteshvara was practicing the deep, Prajnaparamita, in other words, he was practicing deeply, and going deep is sometimes hard. Digging is sometimes hard. but also practicing something deep is hard. In the Buddha Dharma, some people have interpreted the deep in that sutra as meaning basically difficult. It's hard. This practice of the perfection of wisdom is difficult.

[29:44]

And some of you are already having difficulties And so part of my challenge is to work with you having difficulties. At the same time, I don't want to just say to you, well, you're having difficulties, don't, you know, give it a rest or don't worry about it. There are certain kinds of difficulties which if you tell me about it, I can alter. I will be changed by the information that you're having difficulties. So in particular, if what's happening here these meetings is sort of making you, not making you, but you're unable to participate with it, you feel you're being left behind, it may be that it would be good for you to express that. And I can try to find out, well, when will you last here? And we can reconnect so that it won't be just that, you know, me charging off

[30:47]

on some topic and you were unable to participate. So it's normal to have difficulties but it's not necessary to be it's not necessary to not be able to participate in the difficulties. In other words, you may be able to fully engage in this study, even though it's hard. At the same time, you can easily check out, which you won't be very happy with, actually. You'll get extremely depressed if you check out. You'll feel isolated and frightened and withdrawn, and you'll lose your energy. So I don't really want you to, like, run away from what happened in any aspect of our practice here. But in this particular one, if you feel yourself sinking or drifting or running from the material, it's good to let me know so we can reconnect and you can take some, not take, I don't say take, but accept your responsibility for this study.

[31:56]

And I also understand that it's difficult pretty much any time of day to work with difficult things because sometimes you feel sleepy even before the material starts and then it's hard to follow it and really seems like it'd be good to take a nap. And sometimes it is good to take a nap, so maybe it's good to take a nap. But then when you take a nap, when you wake up, things have moved along and you don't know where you are. This is part of the problem here. People also have other problems with this kind of study is sometimes they feel bad about themselves. They think that they're not as smart as other people, which is generally true. Most people are not as smart as somebody. There are some extremely smart people around. And you may be one of them, but there's still people that are smarter than you.

[33:01]

And this group has lots of smart people, so you may feel like you're not as smart as them. And generally speaking, again, sometimes there's people who are smarter than almost anybody here. But we sometimes take turns. Sometimes you're smart and then they're dumb and vice versa. So this is part of what people are concerned about. You know, how smart am I? How well am I understanding? Do they like me for being... the way I am. We get caught in this stuff. And, uh, even if you're not concerned about what other people think, still, and even if you're not worried about being dumb, still it's sometimes a little awkward to learn something new. And I, I say this also to encourage you, is that I, at this point in my life, as some of you know, I'm studying tango. Argentine tango. And, uh, I'm doing it primarily, I don't know, primarily to do something with my wife and secondarily or maybe even more equally primarily to do something new, to do something I'm not good at.

[34:09]

If you just, if you get into your 60s and you've got something you can do fairly well and you just keep doing it, you don't grow. So everybody has to be learning something new otherwise we don't grow, and if we don't grow, we start dying. But growing is hard, because it means you're growing into some area where you're awkward, where you don't know what to do. And in tangos particularly, well, actually, for both the leaders and the followers, and in tango, you're supposed to learn both sides eventually, but the leaders, formally speaking, are the men, but the good women dancers can also lead. When you're a leader, when you're playing that role, you're actually leading the other person, and if you don't know what you're doing, it's hard to lead.

[35:09]

It's one thing to not know what to do, to sit there not know what to do, but actually have to get up there and actually show somebody what you're going to do when you don't know what you're doing. It's hard. And it's dangerous. And the followers, they don't have to know what to do. All they have to do is just let go and have no idea of what's going to happen and just go with it. So that's the great thing for a follower. And people do learn that, that didn't know how to do it before. Like a lot of women who basically were dancing before, even though they know the men were leading, supposed to lead, they were leading. But in tango, it really doesn't work. You can't, the follower, you have to follow, which means you have to let go. And that's something too. So at the beginning, it's really hard for the leaders, because you're just a beginner, you don't know what to do, and you're supposed to be leading someone, and sometimes you're supposed to be leading someone who's better than you, and who knows how to dance.

[36:17]

So it's quite awkward and embarrassing, and then sometimes they show you something in a class, and they say, then you're supposed to go do it, and you didn't understand what it was, and now you're supposed to... Lead the thing which you did not learn. So, of course, you kind of want to go to some other place. Not participate. Of course, I want to, right? But usually I just go up there and I say to the person who I'm supposed to be leading, I say, I don't know what to do. I didn't understand. And sometimes she says, let's figure it out. Or let's get help from the teacher. Or why don't you just try it? But it's, you know, this is necessary for me to be in situations like that. And it's necessary for everybody. But some of you are young, so you're just totally into learning new things. But particularly when you know how to do a few things, to go do things that you don't know how to do is hard.

[37:30]

And so learning wisdom is hard that way. I just heard from my wife that you don't all know Green Gulch, but anyway, Green Gulch has some hills. They're not as high as Tassajara, but some of them are as steep as most, pretty steep, not as steep as some of our hills, but steeper than the road anyway. And so my grandson climbed up to Hope Cottage with his grandmother and back. Everybody was amazed, right? His mother never climbed more than two or three inches. Anyway, we don't know exactly why he did it, but anyway, he did it. And as he was going up the steep parts, he said to his grandmother, he said, Abou, this is a little hard.

[38:32]

Little guy panting up. And then there's a certain place where the road levels off, and he says, oh, this is easier, because it's flat. Anyway, he made it. And so this... Off and on for the rest of the practice period, there's going to be steep times for you. It's going to be a little hard, and there'll be level parts maybe where it's not so hard, and then it'll be steep. But still, you get to decide whether you want to climb this mountain. It's up to you. But if you start climbing it, there'll be hard times. That's normal. And there'll be awful times. In this situation, to some extent, you're not being asked to stand up and lead the class, but that might be good. And you find out that you can actually lead the class, lead the group in this study. And there will be, we're gonna have small groups. After the Wayseeking Mind talks are done, we're gonna have small groups and you can meet.

[39:40]

there and try to express and discuss the situation with each other. There's two more points I wanted to say in terms of how difficult wisdom teachings are. Three more points. One is that I told you this story before. You haven't all heard it. This is inspired by a Far Side cartoon. Do you know that one? Want to tell it? I don't know that even story. Well, you know some Far Side cartoons. Do you know the one I'm thinking of? Well, you got so right. Maya knows. Diana knows. Tell it, Diana. I don't know if I can remember it exactly, but isn't there a... Is there a... There's a dog.

[40:46]

Yeah, there's a dog where? On a tightrope. There's a dog on a tightrope, high above a crowd, and the dog is riding a bicycle on a tightrope, right? And juggling. And juggling, yeah. And there's a cat, I think, sitting on his hat, or maybe... That's... Or maybe there's a fishbowl. Anyway, something's on his head. He's juggling, riding a bicycle on a high wire. And there's a crowd of people down below. Do you follow this? Dog. Dog. Dog. Riding bicycle. Where? On a tightrope. You know tightrope? The wire way up in the air. So the dog's riding the bicycle up on that cave. Okay. Way up. So you're up where the dog is and you're looking down.

[41:48]

There's people way down there looking up at him. And the dog's name is Rover. So it says, high above the hushed crowd, the quiet crowd, high above the crowd, Rover thought to himself, I'm a dog. And this is a new trick. Oh, excuse me. I'm an old dog. And this is a new trick. So in English we have this expression, it's hard to teach an old dog new tricks. So in a sense, all of us are quite old in terms of our ways of thinking. We have ancient thought patterns. So to teach this ancient lineage of thinking of our species, to teach it new tricks, which have been developed, you know, in the last 3,000 years,

[42:53]

more or less. To learn these relatively new tricks is hard for our nervous system, which is quite a bit older and took a long time to make it able to create false impressions and believe them and use them for its own purposes. So we will be discussing how the mind creates false impressions for its own purposes, for the purposes of the organism. of how it does that and how that's a misleading thing and how we believe it and how to disabuse ourselves of this practice. We need to be generous. We also need to work on being enthusiastic and diligent and working on our joyful mind about this practice. We also need to work on the precepts and we need to practice tranquility. If you just practice wisdom without tranquility, you get too wrought up. You tend to get too much up into your head.

[43:54]

You get too hot. And so when you feel you're getting overheated up in your head, it's good to... You stop that kind of, stop the, what do you call it, the talking about mind and nature for a while and go back to practicing tranquility or patience or diligence, these other more practices which help you keep your energy balance. And then when you're balanced again, then you can resume the wisdom teaching. So we need to practice compassion with wisdom. And I think, even if you are working on your compassion practice, I just wanted to clear that wisdom, when the wisdom teachings are coming, they don't often, they're concentrating on the nature of things. They don't necessarily tell you how to take care of yourself. But they're given in the context

[44:56]

of the practical compassion. So you need to keep working on that, which is another part of why it's a really complex process of caring for all the different aspects of your life and then still be able to talk about mind and nature. But sometimes, You can't talk about mind and nature. Sometimes it's not time for wisdom practice because you're too busy doing compassion practice, which is fine. So that's a little bit about the difficulty. And again, I'm welcoming you to tell me about your difficulty and tell me about your discouragement about these teachings and how there's some way we can re-include you in the process. Don't worry about slowing things down. We're actually going along at a rate.

[45:59]

I think the ideal rate is a rate that includes all of us. Some people may get things fast. which is great. And then you might feel like, well, they got it so fast, they don't want to go over it again for my sake. And maybe they don't. But for them to, like, in a sense, slow down so that you can be included is how they can bring compassion to their smart mind by being patient with how slow you are. and to see that actually some other people who also kind of seem to understand are willing to go over it again happily. I remember one time they were talking about, you know, Buddha had two chief disciples. One was Madgalyana, Mahamadgalyana, and the other one was Shariputra. Shariputra's specialty was training the monks in wisdom.

[47:05]

So Buddha was the teacher, but he had, Shariputra was kind of the wisdom instructor. And Muhammad Galayana thought about the other practices of meditation. They said Shariputra would go over the wisdom teachings a thousand times with people. over and over it until they got it. And sometimes he had to go over some point a thousand times and he was happy to do that. And I remember one time in the early days of Tassajara, one of my friends, this guy is a really good worker, a really good energetic worker. And he and I put the rock We worked on putting the rock up in the Christian Memorial site. We took it out of the creek over here and brought it over to the base of the hill in 1972, in the summer.

[48:11]

And then we got to the base of the hogback. And then we stopped, and then a crew of people used a power winch, and it took them a month to drag the rock up the hill. And then when it got to the top, we moved it from the top into its final position and made the base for it and stuff. He really sort of led the thing, and I was even more consistent, named Dan Welch. Anyway, one time he said to Zizekirashi, if we're working here at Tausahara and Sundari's work isn't keeping up, what should we do? And Zizekirashi said, slow down. Because some of us, when we feel pretty speedy, want to know how we can get the other people to catch up, right?

[49:13]

But maybe it's more important to slow down. So, apropos of slowing down, before I give the next two lectures, is there anything you'd like to tell me? Pardon? Pardon? What if you don't know if you're getting some teaching? Yes, two questions. One is, how do you know if you're not getting it? What if you're not sure if you're getting some teaching or not? Sometimes I don't want to assume that I'm not doing something.

[50:23]

You don't want to assume that you're not getting it. And you also don't want to assume you are getting it? Well, because if I assume that I'm not getting it, That might be because I think that there's one way to get it. Right. So there's one possibility is that you assume you're not getting it. Another possibility is you assume you are getting it. There are two possibilities. There's more. There's more, right? So you're wondering, what if you're assuming or thinking that you're not getting it? Do you have your question? Maybe that's why I like the traffic that made my house get much better, even though a cat was far away. Yeah. Well, again, basically, if you think you're not getting it, or if you think you are getting it, in either case, I think what's being recommended is that you talk about it.

[51:27]

Or the other way is expound it. If you think you understand something, well, then expound it. So I said talk, but the other way to translate the word is setsu, which means to teach or explain. So if you think you understand something, then explain it to them. If you think you understand something, expound it. That's one of the ways to check. So, and also if you think you don't understand, then you have, then what you do is you think you understand that you don't understand. So explain how you don't understand. So the point is that you basically talk about and explain what you understand. Given my present understanding, I do not understand what you said. Or short is, I don't understand what you said. That's one way to talk about it. If you do think you understand, And also, I often recommend that if you don't know if you understand teaching, get a class on it.

[52:44]

Sometimes I used to read like the Abhijarmi, you know, I used to read it, and it was difficult. But then after a while, I was able to read it pretty well. And then I started giving classes on it. Then when I read it, I'd read it, and I'd say, what if they ask about this line? I mean, I kind of understand it, but what if somebody asks a question about it, what would I say? So as you're listening to teachings about wisdom, particularly teachings about wisdom, just ask yourself, what would your answer be to certain questions? So start teaching this material. And if you don't think you understand, then you're challenged to explain it. And if you do think you understand, you're also challenged to explain it. So start talking about it. Either way. How does that work to you? Huh? Yeah. That's basically what we need. You get a teaching. Then start talking about it.

[53:45]

Talk about it, talk about it, talk about it. That's what Dogen's recommending about these teachings. There's two parts of Zen practice. One is just sitting. The other is go to the teacher and talk about the Dharma. But actually you can't practice just sitting by itself because you have to go talk to the teacher and explain to the teacher, explain to the teacher what just sitting is. So this is what I think just sitting is. I'm not sure, but this is what I think it is. What do you think? That's pretty good. Go try it. Come and tell me tomorrow what you think of it. But talking about the practice and applying it back and forth, listening to the teaching, asking questions about it. Yes, sir. I don't want to be an illustration because I missed myself. I was having this wonderful and difficult teaching. And because of where I'm at, there's like static and dual.

[54:47]

So I got it as available as I would like to be. Right. And static kind of keeps getting the teaching itself. I don't know if the tape picked up what you said, but basically what I heard you say was you kind of feel drawn to receive what you seem to be scholarly scholarly teachings or teachings about wisdom you're kind of interested in them but you feel too static in your mind and body so it's hard to listen to them and understand them so you think maybe sewing would be more apropos to you yeah right

[55:47]

Right. She feels distracted by her life issues in such a large way, it's hard for her to study something. So sewing is more, helps you calm down, right? Like Patrick was saying, I guess, maybe you weren't saying this publicly, but can I say what you said? That one teacher said that basically meditation is like putting a glass of muddy water down and just letting the mud settle. Not really much you can do, you just allow it to settle. So maybe you feel like some settling is really apropos of your situation now, Joanne, right? And it's hard to look through a muddy water to see these subtle teachings. So you feel like you need to practice tranquility, probably. You need to learn how to give all these activities of your life a rest.

[56:53]

Let them rest. Let all your life situations and life questions, let them rest. Let them settle. That's part of what you feel like you need to work on. Right? Yeah. Which is where I said you have to practice compassion if you're going to do wisdom work. Part of compassion is tranquility, is letting the dust settle. And sewing, when we just sew and say, namukie butsu, and pay attention to what we're doing with our hands, we tend to get calm and concentrated. And that is part, that's the background or basis for this wisdom work. So you do need to do that, so please do it. And if you're somewhat successful, or as you're more and more successful at calming down, if you are, then these wisdom teachings are going to come to you through a more clear, static-free environment.

[57:58]

In the moon time, all this static, it seems reasonable that you would just let it rest. That's your practice, let it rest. Don't cease being involved with all the static, and it'll settle. And then the wisdom teachings will come to you more easily. Okay? And so until it settles, there will be some frustration because you'll be hearing these words, you know, imputation on character, other dependent character, thoroughly established character, suchness, all the stages in the body, parts of the path, depend on this. Linda, before you leave, just wait one second. You can ask your question. If we hear them and stuff, but it becomes ecstatic, it'll be frustrating. So I wish you could hear it better, but definitely be patient with that. Like, just patience. Okay? Before we go, yes. You do? You are not talking about mind and nature. Please continue. We'll be talking about them.

[58:59]

I just want to check my understanding. I have a sense that the expounding was more than just talking about or speaking with it, but also just That's right, yeah. Yeah, yeah. So actually he talks a little about serving Bodhidharma. So the way when he would go up to Bodhidharma and bow, his bow would be a form of expounding his understanding of mind and nature. So his postural presentation would be expounding his understanding of this instruction. Yes? I think maybe you were next, actually. I'm trying to check my understanding of what you said in the last few minutes.

[60:17]

It seems to me that, well, if we have a question about... And if we think we understand it, We're invited to express our understanding and help clarify. Yes. But it could happen that there are 50 different expressions that come up. Yes? Yes? And since you said we should, you know, take time and wait for everybody, it seemed to me that you said that that was okay. And I'm thinking because whenever there's a class... When you said that is okay, what do you mean by that is okay? Yes, right, that's okay. And it's also, you see, it's somewhat useful for me to hear other people's understanding. So although I haven't expressed mine yet, sometimes I hear other people's, and sometimes other people's is similar to mine, and I get a response to my question before to somebody else's question.

[61:27]

That can also happen. I still might want to ask mine, but... Most of the other people's questions might be helpful to you. And brief doksan is a good time to ask just some questions about some aspect of the teaching. It would be very quick. Yes. It's not too much understanding, but the conviction, but that basically affects the need of checking oneself. Well, I might be confused, but do I still have conviction towards the flight, but the flight is still, like, that I really turn towards the flight, and do I still want to listen to it? Well, there's two kinds of conviction that came to my mind. One is, the first one that came to mind was not conviction in the light of the teaching or whatever, but conviction in inquiring about it.

[62:30]

The competence that taught inquiring into the nature of phenomena is good. But I guess that's related to another faith, which is understanding the nature of phenomena is good. So the basic teaching, a basic teaching is that when we don't understand what's happening, when we're ignorant about what's happening, we suffer. If we would understand correctly, we would be free of suffering, and our compassion would be liberated from delusion and function fully. So if that makes sense to me, and that's what I want is to be free and helpful, then I might say, well, then it would be good for me to study and understand the nature of mind and the nature of all phenomena. And also it makes sense to me that inquiring, studying, asking questions and expressing myself and getting feedback and asking questions and expressing myself and getting feedback and asking this process, I might have confidence in that process.

[63:35]

So even though I don't understand, I'm in the process. Even though I haven't reached the top of the mountain, I am climbing the mountain. It's hard, but I do want to do this. I don't just want to get to the top. I actually also want to climb the mountain because not only do I want to climb the mountain, but I want to encourage other people to climb the mountain. And if I climb, that will show them my difficulties and the way I do it might help them. And I see that they help me. So together we're all climbing this great mountain, interacting as we go, and maybe feel some confidence in that process, even though we haven't made it yet. Was there anything else? Yes? He said, did you hear? He said, how could you make the top of that mountain not enticing or oppressive? Not enticing or oppressive. I would suggest that that is not realistic, what you're asked about.

[64:39]

I wouldn't say it's impossible not to make it enticing or oppressive. If it's not, that's just because it's not for you. But if it is, that's just the way it is. I mean, mountains, when you look up at them, they're kind of oppressive and kind of enticing. Again, how do you make the menu not oppressive if you're working in the kitchen? Like, you know, here I am coming to cook, and they're giving me this menu. What an oppressive menu, you know. I'm supposed to do all that? This is really heavy, you know. So it's not so much that you're supposed to, like, say, it's really light. It's not oppressive. It's that if it is oppressive or if it is enticing that you let that rest. Just let go of and find the kind of uprightness and balance and unswayed presence in the midst of wouldn't you like to climb the mountain and isn't it high?

[65:47]

So anybody, I guess, who doesn't feel any oppression and enticement, that's fine, but how are you going to grow? Grow by being subjected to the appearance, to the image, to the fantasy of oppression, like the Buddha. He was already a very good yogi, but as he approached wisdom, he was already able to be quite concentrated. But as he approached the deep wisdom, new and powerful enticements arose to try to knock him off his seat. But he didn't get knocked off his seat by the enticements and the oppressive onslaughts. But they did appear that way. They looked like that. But he was cool. And the coolness, they just drop away. Just look at them, and they vanish. But it's not so easy to just look at certain things. Certain things you do want to run away from, shrink back from, other things you do want to grab.

[66:53]

So just let that rest. Learn to let it rest. And don't necessarily learn to be where there's none of it. You can't grow there. Yes? So I've been thinking now, since you asked this question, you might ask a question, if you don't understand, about the lectures that you've given during the practice day. And basically, what's happening in my brain is you're telling a story that I've either heard before or not heard, and saying this is wisdom and it's a tranquility practice, and sort of saying that is her classification. Mm-hmm. But I do have a question, and I don't really understand. And I wouldn't be able to give a class on it, obviously. And I don't really remember all of it. But I do have a question about the lecture that you gave, not yesterday, but the day before, about Grandmother Mike and Cassie today. Yes. Could I say something before you ask your question about Grandmother Mike? You just said you wouldn't be able to give a class.

[67:56]

OK? Right? But if you had to give a class, or if you wanted to give a class, even though you feel like you can't give a class, you would do something in the process of giving the class. Something would happen. Perhaps you would study, perhaps you would think. You would think about the class a lot. Particularly if you thought you couldn't give it, you might think about it quite a bit. Right, Diana? So you may have the thought, I can't give a class. I'm not able to give a class. Or you may think, I am able to give a class. But actually, what I'm proposing to you is that you kind of start getting ready to give classes on stuff related to the Buddha's teaching. And feeling that you can is a fine feeling. Feeling that you can is a fine feeling. Please give the class. And now, in a sense, you can give a class on how to ask a question about grandmother mine.

[69:03]

Go ahead. So in the lecture that you gave, I didn't really hear so much, this isn't just in teaching. I didn't really hear you saying that so much. I just heard you say, do everything you do has to be a Buddhist ceremony. And that is, I don't know what exactly. And that is grandmother mine. And is that a wisdom teaching? Because it didn't really, in my mind, every other class has been in there. And that one was like a cool, it's like a little different. Yeah, different. I can see that. Well... I think in those practices, wisdom and tranquility are more merged. A lot of Zen practices, they're actually united.

[70:07]

But sometimes they're deepened when you split them apart and see how the different parts are there. So you could split the, for example, the ceremony of offering incense or the ceremony of bowing to somebody on the path or the ceremony of saying good morning. In other words, to say good morning as a way to manifest the Buddha body in the world. So now I say to you, good morning. But I say good morning My main agenda to say good morning is not just to say good morning to you, but to manifest the Buddha body and to enact the Buddha's teaching in this action of saying good morning. That's my heart to attention. How is that tranquility? And how is it wisdom? Well, it's tranquility if, as I say it, I just work on letting go of my story about what's going on.

[71:17]

I just relax with my intention to manifest the Buddha body in this interaction. I don't get involved in this story. That's a relaxation or a tranquility practice. See how this looked like. I had a question. That look on your face didn't mean... I thought it meant... I didn't quite understand that. But you're okay on the tranquility part? Okay, now the wisdom part? Yeah, where is the wisdom part in the good morning? Is it there or not? As you work... Part of what you want to do is you want to realize Buddha's wisdom in this meeting, that the Buddha is wise. So that's your intention now, is to realize that Buddha body and that Buddha Dharma in this interaction, okay?

[72:22]

Where's the wisdom? That's what you want to know, right? Where's the wisdom? The wisdom is, again, not far away from the tranquility practice, but the wisdom is in understanding that what's appearing here is dependent on the way my mind is packaging this. So I'm, first of all, letting go of this story about what's going on, including my intention to practice Grandmother Mind. I let go of that and I feel calm. Now I'm going to look at this story and realize I have a story about my intention and I have a story about this meeting. And my story about this meeting is that I'm meeting somebody in the context of trying to manifest the Buddha Bodhi. And that's what it appears that my mind and intention are doing. Okay?

[73:22]

I'm not done yet, though. That's just how it appears. That's just my story. But if I think that my story is what's actually going on, then I don't have wisdom. Then I just have belief in the way my mind grasps things. In other words, I see the imputational character. I see the imaginary character of what's going on. In other words, the way my mind imagines this meeting. I see that. But I also hear a teaching that what's going on here is a dependent core arising. And I wish to manifest that teaching too, which says that my story about what's going on doesn't really reach this other dependent character.

[74:26]

My story is just the way I apprehend the basic other dependent character of this meeting that's happening right now. That's the wisdom talk about the moment of the meeting where I'm trying to manifest Grandmother Mind. In other words, Grandmother Mind would include the commitment to practice wisdom too. You'd want the wisdom side to be manifested. However, you might not be able to see how it manifested unless you had a discussion with yourself along the lines I just said. However, if you had been having discussions along the lines I just said, without perhaps talking that way, you might be able to see as you were meeting the person, as you were bowing to the person,

[75:40]

and you were bowing with the intention to realize the Buddha body in this bow, you might also suddenly understand that the way you see this bow, the way you see this bow is not at all present in the bow. You might see that. Then Buddha's wisdom would be realized. So grandmother mind in some sense, is the realization of Buddha's wisdom and Buddha's compassion and Buddha's body. It is. But sometimes, even though you're practicing grandmother mind, you also sense that the Buddha's body hasn't been fully realized. You feel that. Or you don't feel it, but if you're required to expound how it's being realized, you may find out that you need to do more work, that you haven't yet realized a chord Usually, even when we are practicing grandmother mind and trying to devote every action to the manifestation of the Buddha body, like right now I'm moving my arm, and I could be moving my arm with the intention that this arm movement would manifest Buddha's arms.

[77:05]

or Buddha's whole body in this motion. I have that intention. This is grandmother mind. When I'm tuned in that way, this is grandmother mind. Okay? And this repeated application of grandmother mind is then conducive to including all aspects of the Buddha Dharma, which finally would include that as I see my arm moving with the intention to realize the Buddha way, I would understand that what I see here, the way I'm grasping this event of moving my arm, is not at all present, is not at all present in the actual arm movement. And when I understand that, then Buddha's wisdom has been realized, grandmother mind has come to, the cultivation of grandmother mind has come to fruition. I was talking to somebody the other day, and I use this story over and over about, Dogen says, you know, when you go out in the ocean, well, first of all, he says, what is it?

[78:25]

When the Dharma does not fill your body and mind yet, grandmother mind is, in a sense, grandmother mind is, I'm talking to you right now. I'm making hand gestures. My grandmother mind is that I really want this to manifest the Buddha body and I want this to enact the Dharma. That's grandmother mind. Okay? I don't know if it is, but I really want it to. Pardon? Is there imagination involved? Definitely. So I'm imagining that I'm talking, I'm imagining I'm moving my arms, and I want this talk and arm movement to manifest the Buddha's body in this world. I want to give my talk and my physical activity and my thought, I want to give this over to realizing Buddha, and I use my imagination to think about how I want that.

[79:28]

Okay? That's the spirit of cultivating this mind. When you don't do this very much, Doga says, or when you don't let that intention of the Dharma filling your body, filling your body, filling your body, filling your mind, filling your mind, when you don't let it in completely, you think, hey, That's enough. I'm full. I got, I mean, I have manifested. This is the manifestation of the, this is the manifestation of Buddha right here. There it is. That's when it doesn't fill you, you feel like it's enough. But when it really fills you, you realize something's missing. When you're really filled, when you practice Grandmother Mind and you really let it in, all the way, and it completely fills your bodies, so all your mental and physical activity is full of Dharma, then you realize something's missing. What's missing? Huh?

[80:32]

The self's missing, right. What's missing is that this way that I'm doing it, this way that it appears, is not at all present in actually what's going on. That's what's missing. What's missing is the way it looks to me. That's actually missing. And to see that is wisdom. So then Dogen gives the example. It's like going out in the ocean and getting away from the shore and no islands. And what do you see? You see a circle of water. But everybody knows the ocean is not a circle of water. You all know that, right? But how does the ocean look? It looks like a circle of water. So, I'm saying that these arms are manifesting the Buddha's body and that's the way it looks to me right now is that these arms are here and my mind thinks that this is my practice

[81:38]

But I know, of course, that this is not really what my arms are doing, that this is a circle of water about my arms, and this is a circle of water about my voice, and this is a circle of water about my mind manifesting the grandmother mind. The actual manifestation of grandmother mind is not like this. It's beyond this little packaged version of it. But there's one more thing which Dogen doesn't mention, which I'd like to mention, and that is that not only is the circle of water not the ocean, in other words, not only is your version of your practice not the ocean of your practice at the moment, you always are an ocean of practice. You're never the circle of water. And all you see is a circle of water, and you can't see what you really are. but you can hear the teaching that you aren't what you see only.

[82:42]

I said only, but now I'm going to change it. It's not only. But what Dogen doesn't say is that the circle of water is not at all in the ocean. There is no circle of water in the ocean. He didn't mention that. So the circle of water is not the ocean. You understand that. The hard part is to understand there's no circle out there in the ocean. Go out in the ocean, there's no circles out there. But we think there is. We think there's all these circles. There's no circle. That's the fruit of wholeheartedly making everything you do the Buddha Dharma. The more you do that, the more you realize, what I'm doing is not actually happening in what I'm doing. I'm totally practicing, but my version of it, what I see, is just a little circle of water, and there is no circle of water at all. There is an ocean, however, fortunately or unfortunately, there's an ocean of practice. There's just no circle of water. First of all, the ocean is not a circle of water.

[83:47]

Second of all, there is no circle of water. That's how this practice of grandmother mind can mature into realizing wisdom. But first of all, you want everything you do to be realizing Buddhist wisdom. And the more you want that, the more you realize that everything you do comes to you. in this circle way and the more you want to understand that the more you will and the more you will understand the more you realize the limited version of what you're doing and the more you realize that the more you can erase the wisdom and you can be mindful of this you can remember this you can remember everybody you meet you're looking at the ocean and you're seeing a circle Or like we say, I'll be looking at the moon, but I'll be seeing you. You're always looking at the moon, but you see all these people.

[84:50]

You're looking at the moon of the person and you're seeing this little version of them. You can remember that. You can remember that. And then that changes the way you relate to these people when you realize that you are actually seeing a fantasy of them, which is normal. That you see fantasies of people. It doesn't mean they're not there. It's just you make them into fantasies because then you can get a hold of them. But without making them into a fantasy, you can't grasp them. And we like to grasp people. Right? Like to get stuff. So that's the imputational. You put something on it so it has a handle. So you can designate it and you can get it. That's normal that we do that. But we can stop believing that the handle and the basis of the handle are really what the person is. We can learn that. But you have to talk about that with yourself a lot.

[85:56]

You have to give yourself that instruction when you meet people. And again, when you look at somebody and you say, fantasy, that's not that they're fantasy, it's that I'm in fantasy land. So I'm in fantasy land. What the person is, is beyond my fantasy. So it's kind of an insult to say fantasy, fantasy, fantasy. It's the other way to say it is beyond my fantasy, beyond my fantasy. That's more complimentary than for me to call you all fantasies. No, it's what you are is you're all beyond my fantasies of you. I don't know what you are. I have fantasies about you and each person I have a different fantasy and there's a reason why I have a different fantasy and the reason for the different fantasy is primarily my predispositions and secondarily but also importantly who you are but mostly I make you into what's useful to me my mind makes you into something I can work with and if there's something about you that I can't work with

[87:02]

I'm not going to get into it. I'm not going to notice it. I'm not going to make a rendition of it. I'll just deal with the part of you that works for my program. But I can remind myself that's what I'm doing all the time and wonder what these people are beyond my agendas. Whoa. And maybe you can do that kind of work. I don't know if you have some static going on. Possibly. Okay, Ana? Eric? So, um, it sounds like, uh, you're saying that there's going to not know when you have that... Yeah, it's not knowing what they actually are, because no one knows exactly what they are.

[88:12]

It's actually knowing that the circle, no one doesn't reach them, but there really is no circle. Well, actually, we're actually saying that there is actually an ocean. It's just that, because if we say there's not an ocean, then we become realistic. Well, we don't have to say there's not an ocean, we just don't have to say there is one. Pardon? We don't have to say there's not an ocean, we just don't have to say there's not an ocean. Okay, so we're going to say there's not an ocean, but just avoid saying there is an ocean. Yeah, so maybe we can just say, rather than saying there is something, we can say there's not nothing. Or just, you know, stop after my fantasy does not meet.

[89:16]

No, it's a more step. My fantasy does not watch, and I actually see the absence of my fantasy.

[89:22]

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