This is tape BME 9814, tape number 304. ...that I feel brings the Buddhist vision into your life with your daughter. How long you live, I don't know. But to postpone achieving that vision and bringing that to your children, to postpone that because of fear of when you are going to die, I say, what's the point? It doesn't do them any good to postpone that. Because that is the greatest gift that we can give to anyone. So my mother, you know, I don't know how much longer she'll live, but between now and then, her children can give her pure appreciation and pure love. That's what we can give her. And I was just there a little while ago back in Minnesota visiting her, and my sister was there, my brother was there. We're all there. and my mother looked at us, and we were all... I didn't want to say exactly on our best behavior, but we were.

[01:07]

I mean, everybody was like... Nobody was, like, getting distracted from the fact that the four of us were together. And my mother... My mother said, I can die in peace now. And she's not that sick right now, but just to have the three of us there and we're just, it was perfect, you know. That one moment, she could see that she, her life was good to have these three kids. And so my brother who lives nearby, he has to like, he called me the other day and said, what should we do? He said, if I pester her I should probably stop." And I said, yeah. But can she feel your appreciation while you're pestering her? If the pestering is part of the appreciation, if it really is clear, then it's sometimes hard to do that and keep that clear vision of appreciation in mind.

[02:21]

Anyway, look at our own impermanence. And I can't guarantee that if you're aware of your own impermanence and meditate on your own death that you're going to live longer. I can't guarantee that, but I think it probably is actually... I think it probably does have what I call a healing aspect. You probably will live longer if you face your death than if you don't. But I can't for sure guarantee that, but I think so. But even though you can extend it a little bit, it's not that much. But the point is that even if it doesn't extend your life, it brings enlightenment into your life. Because viewing impermanence is one of the seeds, one of the ways that the intention, the aspiration to attain complete enlightenment arises from the vision of impermanence. And although you can't necessarily see the inconceivable interdependence of all beings, you can see impermanence a little bit. And again, the more you meditate on it, the more skillful you get, the more it starts to turn into the aspiration for enlightenment, and the more it starts to turn into the abandonment of the belief in your independent existence, which you can see that belief is connected to the descent to death and to the fear.

[03:45]

It transmutes your sense. Meditation on impermanence inspires you to practice and transmutes your understanding of yourself. Helps you clarify your vision. Until finally you see interdependence and then you see that the individual self is going to die but the practitioner is not going to die. And then you work from that position for as long as you live after that. Did you say the practitioner or the practitioner? The practitioner. The meditation on interdependence never ends. There's no way for that to end. It has been going on from before you were born and it will continue after you die. The question is, can you tune into that? And kind of the paradox, no, it's paradox, maybe it's more of an irony, the way to tune into the mind which always meditates on interdependence, the Buddha mind, the way to tune into that is by recognizing the mind that doesn't see interdependence, by facing impermanence.

[05:02]

You're facing the mind that sees only the limited self, doesn't see the interdependent self. You face that one, and facing that opens your eyes to the other one, because the other one is right there at the same place. It's just a complete picture around the partial picture. But you have to admit the partial picture, because the complete picture bears on the partial picture. Because the partial picture is something that's been created by the whole universe too, just like everything else. Narrow views are also interdependent. But if you skip over your narrow view and don't look at it, then your narrow view just goes everywhere. But if you focus on it, it doesn't go anywhere, it doesn't get applied anywhere, and then you see its complement. So anyway, meditating on impermanence is often recommended as the beginning beginning to get into bringing Buddhist vision into your life.

[06:05]

And another one is work on your posture. And working on your posture, physical posture and mental posture, in fact also brings you in contact with impermanence because if you're aware of your posture, your upright posture, that's a very fragile thing. Upright posture has to be constantly renewed so you can feel the fragility of balance. Balance is very fragile. Imbalance is not that fragile. Have you noticed? I mean it seems to be fairly constant. But when you find balance, it's very fragile, very sensitive, and lasts only for a moment. You have to keep renewing that. So awareness of impermanence goes with the sense that practice has to be constantly renewed. When you ignore impermanence, you think you can practice and it'll be like automatic pilot.

[07:06]

But practice is not automatic pilot. Practice is to each moment say, I want to be alive. I'm appreciative for this moment. So impermanence goes very much with this constant effort to be upright moment after moment. And you can be upright even while you're doing all your daily business stuff like that. You can be there in your body when your body's there. You can be there uprightly in all the feelings and experiences you have. So that's another way to bring the basic insight into your daily life and also to reveal the basic insight in your daily life. And the other way, one more way, is to, moment by moment, think in terms of what you can do to help other people, particularly what you can do to help other people you know, in terms of practice.

[08:10]

But also any way you can help people, be constantly devoted to the welfare of other people is another way to bring this mind of interdependence into your daily life. So those are three ways. Yes, Martin? I'm becoming more and more aware of the aging of my body. Yes. I noticed that in the last two, three years in the report, this little sub-change by meditating. Yeah, the fact that you noticed those changes, those telltale aging things. I don't like it. Now, not liking it, that's not a sign of aging. Right. You can feel that when you're pretty young. But, yeah, I notice so many, you know, things, you know.

[09:11]

I just notice that this mouth is not working anymore. It does not pronounce words like it used to. All kinds of... The S-H sound seems to be appearing more than it should. The slurring, you know. Just regular sa turns into sha. The tongue lip thing is just getting all sort of limp, you know. Now it's kind of like really, now work, now pronounce that thing right to the end and get those, you know. But still, you know, if I talk really fast, I don't notice it. But if I talk more slowly and my mouth is more relaxed, it's just not as responding like it used to. The mouth and tongue are dragging behind the mind. That happens to old people. You know? I say it to people who think I'm kidding, but no, a slurred speech is taking in a root here. And my memory too, you know?

[10:14]

People think I have a good memory. You know, I do have a good memory, but it's starting to get even better. Now it's like operating like, you know, I see something and then there's this kind of like wonderful period between when I see it and when the word for it comes. It's like... And then it comes. Whereas it used to be, John, Jay, Helen. Now it's like my best friend, you know, You're my best friend. This has nothing to do with the fact, you know, the fact that I don't know your name, it doesn't mean I don't like you. I do know your name. It's just not coming to my lips. And, you know, my years of Zen practice are coming in handy because between the time when I meet someone and the name coming, which is now getting to be longer and longer, I calmly wait.

[11:17]

I might even say, guess what? We're having kind of like an output problem here. Somewhere in my mind is your name. But don't tell me, let's just wait for it, you know. Or I might even say, you know, I'm a little embarrassed that your name's not coming. But it's interesting, you know. Or, you know, it's interesting. I'm getting old. I'm dying. You know, it's interesting. It's actually happening. It's actually... And feeling that way about it, I actually feel... more interested in practice, more care about other people, and less about me. The more I look at impermanence, the less afraid I am of it, and the more I care about other people, and the more happy I am about practice. So I get happier and happier the more I meditate on impermanence. And I don't have to go looking for it. I get plenty of examples. I think about it very easily. You know, usually...

[12:22]

not too long, maybe a minute or two or something, but not too long goes, usually not a minute goes by without me thinking about my death because it's being presented to me. It's not like I'm so smart or something. It just, it's coming to me all the time because my body keeps saying, oh, this is not like it used to be. The mind's not working like it used to be. The mouth isn't working like it used to be. If I sit still on a cushion, and don't move, and don't talk, you know, then too. But it's not because I can't perform certain acts anymore. It's just that I feel the impermanence in a way that doesn't compare itself to anybody. I just feel death all around me. And it feels good to feel it, not bad. That's how I feel. And when I feel that way, I feel practice is really alive. It's in my life. So in my daily life, it's there all the time because of my body falling apart.

[13:28]

And in my formal practice life, it's there just because the practice opens to the death of the individual. And the more I open to the death of the individual, the more I open to the death of this individual, the more I feel confidence in the non-death of the non-individual. the more I feel like interdependence is happening. The more I feel like the whole universe is giving me life, and I'm giving life to the whole universe. And that's not going to stop. But in meditating on permanence helps that. Okay? So that's really one of the main ways you can extend it. Yes, Terry? The most vivid, probably the single most vivid stimulus toward Deepening my practice was spending time with a friend who at age 44 is dying of cancer. And what was so painful about that was that he could only focus on the individual self and could only focus on the distress that he was going to die.

[14:41]

And he never seemed to have been able to come to that point of coping out kindness of wanting to spend his last positive energy was all so much. So that was a very powerful, very vivid lesson for me. So as I said earlier, a certain phase of meditation on impermanence of myself is prior to the thought of benefiting others. So if some of you start meditating on impermanence, you may not notice right away this great aspiration to live for the welfare of others. But that's a sign of a beginning meditator on impermanence. When you first start doing it, you may just barely be able to face it. Having spent not much time facing it, when you first start facing it, just facing it is enough. I mean, it's all you can do. After you get more skillful at it, it's not so difficult to stay with it, and as it's not so difficult to stay with you, you start opening up to be concerned for others.

[15:47]

But usually it doesn't go instantly to, you don't instantly tune into the proper attitude of meditation on impermanence. It usually takes a while to get the right attitude, which is upright. You know, like, okay, my death. Usually when people get into that, when they first, like the doctor says, she got cancer, and it's serious. Usually people like go, or, you know, it's hard to like stay balanced. It's hard to stay there like this. Or your child has cancer. It's hard to like stay balanced for that. But if you can stay balanced and look at it, right when you find out you have cancer, you might immediately, if you're balanced, when you hear that, you think, oh, what can I do for others? One of Suzuki Roshi's favorite movies is called, is it called Ikiru? You know what it's called? Ikiru. It's about this man who's basically a walking dead man.

[16:48]

He's a Japanese bureaucrat. Here's the story, you know, right? He's a bureaucrat for the city government. And people come in, you know, poor people come in and say, ah, man. And he goes, you know. with his stamp, you know. Next. Next. And then he finds out he has cancer, you know. So his first reaction is, you know, he gets a young girlfriend. The next reaction is he becomes an alcoholic. I forgot what he went through. But anyway, he went through these various... He's meditating on impermanence, right? He can't avoid it because he's got stomach cancer. And he knows it's stomach cancer, so he does all these weird things. But finally, he goes through all that, and he decides he's going to build a park. And so he starts building the park. And his life, he comes alive for the first time in the movie anyway.

[17:52]

He's really alive, you know, and really happy because he's building this park in this slum. Plus, he still keeps his regular job and people come in. He does these outrageous acts, you know, instead of just going, he gives them what they want, you know. Probably get in trouble, maybe get fired. LAUGHTER It doesn't want to get fired too fast because he's also using his business, his authority to build his park. So when you first hear about impermanence, your first reaction may be like selfish and, you know, poor me and all that. You go through that. That's the beginning of meditating on permanence. It's like, oh, poor me, I'm losing my hair. Poor me, I'm losing my teeth. Poor me, I'm losing my speech. Poor me, I'm losing my memory. Poor me, I'm losing my back. I'm losing my, you know, poor me, poor me, poor me. That's the first, that's the beginning of meditating on permanence. Before that, it's like, I got no problems. I'm not getting old. Nothing to worry about. I mean, I'm happy. Things are getting better and better. This is not starting yet.

[18:54]

So at the beginning, you maybe have a selfish rate, sort of go into selfish overdrive for a little while. But gradually, you settle into the deeper meditation, and then you start wanting to see how you can become skillful to help other people be happy. So he didn't get enough into the practice to get to that point. But again, in Buddhism, there's not like a last chance. The practice goes on forever, so you get more chances to practice. So do the best you can while you can, and you get more chances. It doesn't wait. And the one thing I want to say, too, is that I want to stress that we need to balance urgency with not hurrying. Okay? Okay? Urgency goes together with not hurrying. Okay? So when you start meditating on impermanence, as you get into it, you feel that urgency.

[19:58]

But that is exactly why you shouldn't hurry. Since you don't have much time left, the next... Since you don't have much time left, be dignified about the time you do have. Don't rush. because you don't have much time. You know, urgent means to be pressed or pushed, to be driven. You're driven to practice. You're driven to do good and use this precious life as soon as possible, namely now. And the way to use it is not to rush. Every step carefully. Every step try to check to see what's your motivation in taking this step. Are you taking this step to benefit beings? Just check beforehand. Maybe, no, okay. You want to take it anyway? No. I'm going to wait until I want to take it for the benefit of all beings. So a lot of people are standing around not moving for a while. Okay, now I want to take a step for the benefit of all beings.

[21:02]

There it is, a step. Now, another one. Ready? For the benefit of all beings? Okay, another one. You start walking. There you are doing it. You're meditating in a dignified fashion. Now sometimes it benefits people to be silly. So then you say, okay, now I'm going to be silly. I'm going to run for the benefit of all beings. But there's dignity because it's coming from caring for others. They can see this person's running for the welfare of others. Look at that. That's so nice. This person's slowing down for the welfare of others. This person stopped for the welfare of others. So it's urgent that we use our life well as soon as possible, namely now. If we don't use it well now, when are we going to? So now, use this moment well. And don't rush to use it.

[22:02]

So for me anyway, urgency and not hurrying, they're the good friends. So some people are urgent and then they rush. That contradicts urgency. If you have to go to the bathroom, you feel like you're going to wet your pants, okay? Don't rush. Not rushing helps you hold it. Try it out. Check it out. Yes. John? In the case of loss, you're talking about loss of a friend, maybe loss of a girlfriend, loss of a child. There seems to be the period where you simply need to take care of pain, which I really would call selfish, in my sense of it. Grieving, you mean? Right, that it's really very important to be with that in the tenderest, most considerate way.

[23:08]

Yes, I agree completely. Yes. So I'm curious about two things. In what way can you watch for the time when the meditation on impermanence might come to you? That's the first question. And the second one is that I can see how, in the case of loss, the truth of impermanence reveal itself and also the truth of the independent self. But I sense that the third one, the independence, It's more of what you call a transmutation. It's a little different kind of experience as you move into that. Would you comment on both? Okay, so the first thing is about not so much that something is going to die, but something has died or you have lost something. Okay? Okay. And I think that if you lose something and you feel no grief, sometimes it's possible.

[24:17]

Sometimes you lose things and you feel no grief because you have no attachment to it. But sometimes you feel no grief because you have such a big attachment that you're in denial about what's happening. So anyway, in denial, there's not too much you can do about it, except maybe check. If you lose something big and you feel no grief and no sadness, for a while anyway, probably go talk to your teacher about it to see if your teacher feels like you're in denial. Sometimes when you lose something, you don't immediately... The time when you seem to lose it is not necessarily the time when you do lose it. So sometimes you lose things, and at the time you think you're supposed to be sad, you're not, and then later when you don't expect to be sad, you are. Various things, you know, things don't happen according to certain schedules, right? But if you lose, like, a loved one and you don't feel any sadness, maybe check out to see if... But anyway, usually sadness, I feel, comes because something has changed, something has gone away.

[25:25]

For example, like, you know, for me, the first 55 years of my life have gone away. But some attachment may, there may be some attachment to that. And sadness comes to help me let go of my attachment to my past 55 years. So I feel sadness. not just for my 55 years, but for my 55 years plus all the things and all the people I've known during those 55 years which are gone. All my daughters that I used to have are gone. The baby daughters, the adolescent daughters, young adult daughters, they're all gone now. I lost them. They're not there anymore. And there's some sadness about that. All the encounters I've ever had with my daughter All the opportunities I ever had with them, they're gone. But if there's some attachment, the sadness, it gives me an opportunity. If I feel the sadness, I let go of what is already washed away. You can cling to things that are already gone, and then you have ghosts in your life.

[26:30]

Sadness is antidote to ghosts. So all you do is feel the sadness. Okay, that's what you do. You feel it, or grief. And then you're ready to renew your life. So actually you are meditating on impermanence when you feel sad, but also you're meditating on the part of you that doesn't believe in impermanence, that's holding. If you really are totally with impermanence, there's no sadness. You let go of all your friends that are gone, all your own bodies that are gone, all the sunsets and flowers and summers and winters and springs and falls that are gone. You let go of them and now you're here. And if you haven't let go, then you have to do some sadness work, some grieving. When you do that, then you're refreshed and ready to live again. With doing that kind of work, then you're back in the present, and now in the present, you can meditate on impermanence right now and the pain of the present change and the present death that's threatening you.

[27:36]

That meditation then opens your eyes to this interdependent self, But if we're holding on to these past things that have gone and we're still holding on to, that interferes with our dealing with the fresh reality as it's happening. So grieving is good to bring us up to our present meditation. It's in the present that we test to see if we're really ready to deal with what's happening. And it's there that the self gets transformed. But this other work is auxiliary and very important and very good. Sadness is good. It's part of the health process. Breathing is good. The attachment, which is at the base of it, that's just kind of, it's not really good or bad, it's just normal, and it's the source of the problem. And it's interfering with reality. But we don't sometimes know where we're holding on, so we can't do anything about it, but sadness gives us a way to get at it. Does that make sense? Did I answer your question?

[28:39]

Did I deal with the different aspects? Did I deal with the different aspects? You did. Okay. In terms of something related to friends as well, I've had a time in my life where I've just seen people, friends and associates, or a friend's parents, people have just died all the time. And so it feels like the meditation of the permanence is right in my face, but it's also kind of shocking. So that friends are dying or, you know, every time I turn around, like right now, my friend has lung cancer. It's like, I can't believe it. Or like Carlos Castameda, you know, my father-in-law's dad. Yes. And so it seems like it's just very fast, and I think it has something to do with my stage of life. Yes. And then it gets faster. Yes. But I don't seem to have a real sense of neutrality, and I wonder if I will ever get a sense of neutrality or an attachment to that.

[29:46]

It's still kind of shocking to me. Well, the more you meditate on impermanence, the closer you get to non-attachment. So do you think it's possible that people who really have been meditating on impermanence develop a sense of ease and neutrality about this? Modern enough neutrality, I like the word non-attachment. In other words, I think it's possible to be a Buddha. Yes, I do. Not be a Buddha, but realize Buddha. And that means realize non-attachment. And when you have non-attachment, you naturally love all beings and not just like, not like them necessarily, but love them and are very happy to devote your life to working for them. So you're happy, you can be a happy, non-attached being. I think it's possible. And meditating on impermanence is one of the first big steps towards like really getting into realizing that.

[30:51]

You have to be you know, kind of present and grounded in order to really practice meditation on impermanence. You have to do a lot of basic work of like getting in your body, because it's not theoretical impermanence, it's your actual personal impermanence of your own body. So, meditating on impermanence is a ways into the practice. To actually like see impermanence means you're already quite mindful of what's happening. And when you get to the place where you're like meditating on the impermanence of your own experience and all the things around you, you're quite a ways into it. And as you get more and more into it, you start to realize the abandonment of attachment to self. You start to open your eyes to the radiance of the truth of interdependence. I think it is possible. Yes, I do. I've seen people do it. I've seen people realize you know, the fruits of meditation on impermanence.

[31:55]

And the Buddhas, I believe the Buddha was a wonderful non-attached person, and I've seen some of his disciples that seem to be very non-attached, and they all meditate on impermanence. But really meditate on it, not just think about it, but actually get into the actual evidence for it. You're getting evidence for it. and you start to settle into that. As you get more and more settled into facing the evidence of impermanence, not just the theory of it, but the actual data of impermanence, if you can meet that in a balanced way, you'll start to develop non-attachment in the middle of it, in the middle of situations where we most have trouble to be non-attached, namely around our self, which tends to project stability on the world. The selflessness, when you realize selflessness, you don't project stability on the world. You live in a fleeting, interdependent world. And you're happy there, and you want everyone else to see it.

[33:01]

Because then they'll be happy. You love beings more when you're selfless and when you understand impermanence. More fully loving people. Well, just really briefly, one of my experiences, which was really interesting, and it reminded me of some of the things that you said in the past, that a couple of the people who died, in some ways I didn't even like them that much, but I felt really sad, and I realized for these particular two people that I loved them, that I felt really, and it helped me to see the love that I have for all people, that their personalities that fluctuate around me are a little complex. Mm-hmm. It didn't matter. And I felt like I'm able to carry that today. When I feel like conflict with people or when I think maybe I don't like someone that much, I can remember that loving feeling.

[34:02]

The way I feel about it is like sometimes someone who you don't particularly like, even someone that you have a real hard time with, and they die and then you feel sad again my feeling is that you can be attached to people who you don't like can have a deep unconscious attachment to somebody even though you your conscious life you really don't like them the dislike of them is not love and the attachment to them is not love so you know about you don't like them then you're surprised to find out you're sad they're gone when you feel the sadness and you've completed your grieving over this person who you don't like, that brings you into the world where you realize your love of them. But until you do your grieving, you're living, you're still balled up in the past in your attachment so you can't see the love. When you finish the process of grieving, then you have a chance to realize that you love them, but not as a favor to them, not because you like them.

[35:08]

You love them because you're interdependent with them, because they're your life. This person who you didn't like is your life. They were then and they are now. That's love when you see that. So sometimes you have to grieve, though, before you realize that this person you didn't like you love. And you also don't switch over to liking them. I still don't like them. There are people who we don't like who we love. There are such people. Well, I have a dog now that I both love and like. I mean, everybody likes her. She's very likable. And I suppose some people love her, too. But I both love her and like her. But there's some people who I only love. On that note, do you choose to hang out with people who you don't like but love deliberately? Okay, in Buddhism, you may read in Buddhist scriptures, the Buddha says don't associate with, he says, foolish common people.

[36:16]

In other words, don't associate with people who aren't practicing. Okay? But the Buddha doesn't associate with people who aren't practicing, but the Buddha is totally devoted to people who aren't practicing. So you don't go hang out with people who are doing really abusive, harmful things. You don't hang out with them. You don't associate with them. But you do go and help them. But you're not like an associate. You don't go take drugs with them and go rob banks with them and beat people up with them. But when they're beating up people, you'd go there and try to protect beings from that harm. That's not association. So don't hang out with people that aren't practicing. But try to find some way to help people that aren't practicing. In other words, try to help them find some way to practice. That's different from associating or hanging out with them. If you can go into a bar and wake people up in the bar, well, go in the bar.

[37:20]

But if you're going to go in the bar and just get drunk yourself and cause a lot of trouble, don't go there. That's associating, right? But a lot of people aren't practicing Zen Buddhism, but are trying to be good people in the world. And it's still hard. I mean, you're not suggesting not... So where does one draw the line? There are people who are not practicing and who, in fact, it's difficult to practice with. But they're good people, and they're not, you know, running around... There are people who are good people, that's everybody. I know, but I think it's more about robbing banks. They're not robbing banks, right. And what? And, you know, intoxicating everybody around them. They're not doing that. I mean, in a way, they're following the precepts, but they don't mean to be following the precepts. Well, that counts. If they're following the precepts, but they don't mean to, that's okay. Yeah. I'm not articulating myself.

[38:25]

Yeah, well you gotta keep trying. So people who really believe that all the things around them are the most important, the stuff around them is gonna make them happy. Okay. And so they're very invested in that. And it is hard to communicate. to talk about Zen practice with them. Yes. So that they're not necessarily helping you on your path. Yes. But they happen to be... you're close to them. Yes. So what does one do? Okay, so someone who believes that getting material things is going to make them happy. And so how do you relate to such a person? Okay? Is that your question? How do you relate? But... So what do you choose? What is the relationship one would choose? I mean, obviously you can't always choose a relationship, but... Yes, you can. You can choose to be related to all beings.

[39:28]

It's just a question of what kind of relationship. Okay? So, for example, with children, you don't do certain things with children. Okay? But you still relate to them. And with adults, you also don't do certain things, but you still relate to them. So the question is, what's the proper relationship? So associating with people who are doing some things which are somewhat unwholesome, but, you know, relatively speaking, not in like, for example, who are trying to amass great wealth, to associate with them in sort of like...and try to teach them some teaching which they're not interested in. would be like exposing children to information that they're not ready to hear. So it was just not appropriate. Okay? So in that case, you're with the people. You don't necessarily talk about the unwholesomeness of them amassing great fortunes for themselves. You don't necessarily bring that up. Maybe you just are with them and you show them that you respect them, you love them, and eventually they'll ask you, what's the matter with you, you know?

[40:33]

Eventually they'll take a little break in their wealth-mongering and they'll notice that love that you're giving them and they'll be converted by your love. But in the meantime, you don't necessarily hang out with them while they're trying to get all this money or whatever it is. But when you do see them, you give them your best. You give them your love. You give them your presence. You give them your willingness to be who you are. And you give them your willingness to be who you are, who's suffering and feels pain at seeing them waste their time. You're sorry you see them waste their time. You're sorry you see them doing things which are actually wasting their time, which is like really unfortunate that they're wasting their time doing things that are antithetical to what they really want. You feel sad about that. But you can't tell them yet because they don't want to hear. And to tell them ahead of time is like telling a child ahead of time.

[41:39]

It just confuses them and maybe makes it harder for them to hear it later when they grow up. It's like getting somebody to learn something before they're ready to learn it, like having a child learn some sport or ride a horse ahead of schedule. It's not good. But when they want to, you're there. And when they want to, then you do associate with them, because then they want to practice. Until then, when you see them, you give them the best under the circumstances, which is you show them that you appreciate them the way they are. And you also, in fact, are sad that they're wasting their time. This is the end of side one. Please go now to side two. And then you can say, do you really want to hear it? And then they say, yeah. And you say, I don't think you do. I think you're going to, I think you'll be, you know, I don't think you're doing it. And they ask you again. They say, no, I don't think you're doing it. They ask you, yeah, I don't think you're doing it. They say, well, you've asked three times, so now I'm going to tell you. I think your problem is that you're too attached to your money or whatever it is.

[42:42]

You're too concerned with money. That's what I think your problem is. I was listening to the radio and this guy gives advice about how to make investments, right? So this guy calls him up and he says, I forgot what he said, something like, well, I'm blah, blah, blah, and blah, blah. And the guy says, well, how much do you actually have to invest? He says, I have about five to seven million to invest. And then he was saying, this is how I'm investing, but I'm only getting this level of return on this. So what should I do? And the guy says, take that interest you're getting there and spend it. Take that interest and have a good time with it. But this guy says, yeah, but I feel like I'm not getting enough return on this. I feel like I should invest it in a better place. The guy says, wait a minute, what are you talking about? You've got $7 million. What do you think this money's for? How old are you? The guy says, 55. He says, you're 55 years old. You've got this money to enjoy it, to spend it on something.

[43:45]

And here you're worried about how to make higher and higher income and returns on it, and you're not using any of it. You're going to be dead in a few minutes and blah, blah, blah. The guy did not really listen to him. But anyway, even in those cases, even on the radio where a radio announcer kills it, the person's wasting their time and gets freaked out. You shouldn't freak out. Because the radio guy was kind of putting him down. I mean, the guy was outrageous, it's true. But the radio guy should have been more loving. And then the guy might have said, might have realized himself. that what he was doing was very ridiculous, to have this huge pile of money and not enjoying it for himself and just making it bigger and bigger. So now, when he dies in five years, it'll be like 11 million, you know. And maybe the last minute of his life, he'll say, oh, well, I could have the joy of giving this away now. Great. Well, why not start earlier? And once you start, then you're starting to meditate on impermanence.

[44:50]

You're 55. You're not going to live forever, you know. But I want to hire a return." But you can't tell people these things before they're ready and you shouldn't tell them ahead of time because if you tell them the truth before they hear it and they reject it, then it interferes with them seeing it later. You know how sometimes people, they reject something and then later they want it but they're embarrassed to admit it? So you don't give it to them and then later when they're ready they'll ask for it and then they'll be ready. But it's painful to wait. unless you appreciate the person now. So try to appreciate them now at the same time realizing that they have this problem and wait till they ask you. And if you appreciate them, they ask people who appreciate them. If they see your appreciation, you're the type of person that they're going to ask for advice because they think you're intelligent, because you appreciate them. And in fact, when you appreciate people, that's a sign of intelligence.

[45:56]

Not appreciating people is not a sign of intelligence. Seeing people's problems can be a sign of intelligence, but not appreciating them is a sign of foolishness. So to see a person with various weak and strong points and appreciate them, that means you understand something about reality. And when people see that, they don't always see it even though it's there. But when they see it, they appreciate it. And eventually, if they notice that they're miserable, you're the type of person they're going to ask for some advice. And even then, you've got to be careful. Say, do you really want it? When Buddha really was delivering the most kind The most kind teaching is oftentimes the most upsetting because it's the most reorienting. So Buddha was very cautious when he gave a teaching that was really different from what people thought. He made them ask three times.

[46:59]

And even then, some people didn't like it and walked out. When you're first starting to practice and you're still kind of deluded and you hear the Dharma, the Dharma kind of disorients you. As your practice gets stronger, the Dharma doesn't disorient you anymore. It's more like you start orienting the Dharma when you're enlightened. You work with the Dharma. When you're still kind of like holding on, you still think you're going to last for a while, you still think you're independent of other people, then the Dharma kind of like is a little bit of an affront. It's because it's saying you're not going to last and you're not independent. You're actually nothing all by yourself. So, yes. What's your name again? John? John? If I could back up a few steps. We were talking about grieving and loss. Grieving and loss, yes. I seem to have a habit of grieving this self-paradox, when I'm thinking about loss.

[48:10]

To give me an example, if I'm going through a day and I'm hit with a field of loss, A feeling of loss with or without sadness? Well, this is the point. Yes. One of the points. Yes. I try not to grab on and attach to that or attach anything to that feeling and just have let it be and then just dissipate. Yes. Or if I do, I'll start to break it down and by the time that I break it down and realize it's impermanent, it's usually gone. Yes. My question is that in that process... Part of that feels like denial. So... Could you give a concrete example of something that you would lose? Sorry? Could you give a concrete example of losing something? Yeah, like a friend. Losing a friend. Friend dies, you mean? Yes. Okay, friend dies, and where's the denial? And that hits me in the day. And I think of it and I just let it go. And by letting it go and not... What hits you? The awareness that they're gone hits you?

[49:13]

You remember? What is it that hits you? The thought that they're gone hits you? Sadness hits you. Sadness hits you. Okay. And by letting that go, part of that feels like it's an arousal. Okay, so that's right. You don't let the sadness go. That's good. That's a good question. You don't let sadness go. Sadness isn't meant to be let go. The thing that's gone is to be let go. But sadness you shouldn't let go. Sadness you should feel. And all you do is feel it. You don't analyze it. Just feel it. And you feel it in some part of your body usually. For me, my sadness usually starts somewhere around my heart, but it's not just there. It goes down from there, you know, towards the earth. So I usually start at the top of the sadness, the feeling, and then I physically go down to the bottom of it in my body. So you feel the sadness. You don't analyze it. You don't let go of the sadness. So sadness is medicine for what you haven't let go of. So, since you didn't let go, then you feel the sadness and in feeling, in opening to the sadness, the way you open to the sadness is the way you let go.

[50:21]

So, opening to this feeling of sadness at this level which you don't know about, you let go of whatever it is. Okay? Does that make sense? Pardon? Diffuse what? You diffuse what? No, you don't diffuse the sadness. you fully experience it. And when you fully experience sadness, that sadness has done its job. It's like a medicine, you know. You take the medicine and when you've fully processed the medicine, it's gone, it's done its job. Then another sadness may come for something else that you've lost or something else you've been holding on to. So you don't disperse the sadness or you feel it fully and then it's done its job and it's over. You've... You metabolized it more like than dispersed it. Was it the attachment that's being diffused? The attachment is being diffused. The attachment is being dropped.

[51:22]

But a lot of things we're attached to we don't know about. That's why you can be attached to people you don't like. Up here on your brain level you don't like the person. Then down some other part of your body you're reaching out and holding on to them. And you don't even know that until they die and you think, oh! You know? But the sadness comes to help you address that attachment. So feel the sadness all the way to the bottom. There is a bottom to the... It isn't that the sadness exactly has a bottom, but there's a bottom to your openness to feeling. You know what I mean? In other words, things don't exactly have bottoms, but there's a bottom to your feeling of it. So you can wholeheartedly feel something, that has a bottom. Your wholeheartedness has a bottom. But things don't have bottoms. Like each one of you is bottomless, but my experience of you is like wholehearted and open or not. So I can have no resistance to something that itself is endless.

[52:27]

In other words, you can be open to something that's infinite. And every being is infinite, and you can open to that thing. And sadness is something you can open to. You can feel it fully. And then you let go of whatever that thing is. And then you move on. You're fresh. And then another one comes. Sandy? Is sadness always attached to something? This morning, we started walking meditation. And as I got outside, I had a wave of sadness come. I often... Yeah. And it actually feels good. Yeah, it is good. But it's not... That's what we're here for. It's not... And it happens at other times. But I don't know what... That's right. Oftentimes you don't find... Sometimes you find out what it is, but oftentimes you don't. That's why I'm saying is that the attachment sometimes is unconscious. And you never find out what it is.

[53:28]

Like, do you... The ways we connect with some people, we do not know we're connecting with them. Like particularly people you don't like, you sometimes make a connection with them and you don't know that you're making a connection until they're gone. And you never find out what connection you made with them because it's subconscious. But the important point is that you let go and you're fresh now. And actually you say, is the sadness attached to something? The sadness isn't attached to something. The sadness arises in dependence on being attached to something that's gone. There's actually nothing there, but the sadness is arising from an attachment to an illusion, to something that's gone. But a lot of stuff is unconscious. Sometimes, however, when you finish being sad, you get this little message about what it is about.

[54:32]

Sometimes you get, oh, it was about that. Sometimes you find out. But sometimes you don't. I think most of the time you don't. But the point is, it's not to find out what it was about. It's to set yourself free. That's what this whole thing is about. Sadness is to free you, not to find out necessarily what your problems used to be. Does that make sense? That's what I think. That's my experience about sadness. See what time is it now? It's four o'clock. Maybe we should have a period of walking meditation during which some people could test out this urgency thing to walk to the toilet in a dignified fashion and check out to see how that works. hot, you know, be urgent without hurrying kind of thing. And we can do walking meditation and then come back and sit for a little while and then have another period of discussion.

[55:34]

Okay, so walking meditation. Let's do two circles again, one around the outside and one inside. Some people go outside. . There were a few more, I think there were some more questions which I didn't get to, if some people had their hand raised.

[59:34]

Yes? What's your name again? Barbara. Barbara, yes. You were talking about the emotions of sadness and that you said that you should feel it fully, fully then. And I was wondering if that was true at all moments. I would say the same with all emotions, yes. However, some There's a difference between emotions in that sadness is...sadness is not...in terms of, you know, I wouldn't call sadness an emotion, I would call sadness a feeling.

[60:35]

Emotions are more like...I use the word emotion for something that's more active. Like anger, you're trying to avoid something. lust, you're trying to hold on to something. In confusion, you're going back and forth. Faith is an emotion that you...something's...you know, you put your...you just get settled on something as valuable to you. But what I mean by sadness is a feeling. It's more like a physical feeling. In a way, the emotion, the willingness to feel it is like an emotion. It's an emotion of openness. That's the way I would say. What about guilt? Guilt? What about guilt? Guilt? What is guilt? Guilt is, I think, more like, I would say, a perception.

[61:43]

So in terms of Buddhist experience, we sometimes talk about five kind of like categories of experience. One is physical experience, like colors, smells, touches, tastes, and sounds. And the next category is feelings, and those feelings can be feelings of positive, negative, and neutral, or pain, pleasure, Can't tell which. Next comes perceptions, you know, your sense of what you're perceiving. So you can have a perception of anger. Or you can have a perception of, you feel like this is a perception of pain or a perception of pleasure. So there's a feeling plus there's a perception of it. You can have feelings of pain and not be perceiving them. And the next category is very complicated and includes all kinds of emotions like greed, hate, and delusion.

[62:46]

It has emotions like faith and faithlessness, shame and shamelessness, concentration or distraction, diligence or laziness. That's the next category. There's quite a wide variety of emotions can arise there. And the last one is consciousness, which is the awareness of all those, can be the awareness of all those. So I would say that guilt is like you perceive guilt, or you judge, more of a judgment. I judge, or there's a judgment that I did such and such. We usually apply a guilt to unwholesome or unskillful activity. We don't usually say culpable for a good thing, but you could also judge that you did some good thing, too. You were making a distinction as far as shame and guilt.

[63:47]

How do you know when it's really time to rest? One way is you can experiment. You may feel like, I think it's time to rest, and sometimes you rest, and then you find out after you rested that you find out something. And other times, you're not sure if you should rest, and you don't, and you find out you should have. And sometimes you don't rest, and you find out you didn't need to. So by trial and error, you can also consult with fellow practitioners or teachers You can say, well, I feel tired.

[64:48]

Should I rest now? And sometimes they say, yeah. And sometimes they say, keep going a little longer. Sometimes it's just, what do you call it, a little dip in your energy. And you come out of it a little while later. Other times it's like real fatigue and you should rest. Because if you don't, for example, if you're doing something like drive a car or something, it's unwholesome to drive it if you're too tired, right? Because you can really harm people. So in that case, it's not that you're being lazy not to drive the car, It's that you sense that you're not capable of staying awake when you drive in this potentially dangerous piece of machinery. And so you rest for a little while, and then you feel fresh and you start again. So if you're not sure about when to rest and when not to rest, then you just experiment. Maybe try sometimes to say, I feel tired, but I'm not going to rest, and see how that goes.

[65:50]

And other times, whatever I said, do the other one. And learn from that. It always becomes a disaster if you don't rest and keep going, but then you wonder, if you had tried harder and not resting would have worked. Well, sometimes try harder and see if it does work. But then also notice, particularly if we're talking about Buddhist meditation, notice that if you push yourself too hard, notice how you feel about the practice. So you've got to be careful. What some people do is they overwork and then they take these huge compensation breaks. So it's sometimes better to be steady at a lower level than to have these big spurts and big crashes. So oftentimes when we have our intensives, I say to a person who's maybe having a hard time, don't push yourself so hard that you won't want to do the next intensive.

[66:58]

Don't just do this one and get through this one in such a way that you would never want one done, never want to do one again. This practice is a practice for your whole lifetime. It's very important to practice right up to your death. You shouldn't be just practicing for the next couple of months. You should learn how to practice in such a way that you feel like you could continue this kind of practice, your present practice, for your whole life, this level of intensity for your whole life. Now, maybe later you can get more intense. If you start too intense, you may quit, which would be a big mistake. It's better to practice a little bit forever than a lot and then stop. And not that you could stop, but that you feel like you're going to stop, you're going to quit. I don't know if that was helpful. But again, consult with a teacher about whether you should try harder.

[68:01]

Like I sometimes tell stories when I was trying hard and I was having a hard time and sometimes I asked Haseki Roshi and he told me to keep trying hard. But other times... When I was having a hard time, I rested and I was able to continue. Or some other people didn't rest and they stopped practicing. So sometimes people think that, looking at my practice, they think, you were very steady for a long period of time. But included in my steadiness was many times when I would relax and when I would rest. One time in one of our intensive meditations, I started at the beginning and I was healthy, and then after about one day or so I started to get sick. And the next day I was sicker. So rather than quit the intensive, I just stopped working. We had a work period.

[69:01]

I couldn't do the work, so I just stopped doing the work period and I rested during the work period. And then after a while I couldn't stand up. I mean, I couldn't bow. during service, so I stopped bowing. And then after a while, I started resting during meals, too. I stopped eating. And by the middle of Sashin, I was still sitting in the meditations, but I wasn't able to work, bow, or, you know, and I rested during the meals. And then halfway through it, I started feeling better, and I felt better and better. By the end, I was normal. But I continued the meditation. through it, but got easier and easier on myself. So I never really stopped participating in the meditation. And on my breaks, too, I felt like I was continuing the practice, but I wasn't able to perform certain physical acts like stand up and walk and serve and work. But I could walk to and from the meditation hall, but that was about it.

[70:03]

So, I mean, if we live a long time, we're going to most of us are going to get pretty weak. But you can continue, if you have a certain kind of practice, you can continue all the way to the end of your life. But if you work too hard, then you may have a sense that your practice is deteriorating and then it gets embarrassing. And another thing I wanted to just say is that, you know, I was talking about like sitting down in a chair and assuming that it's going to hold you up. So I once said that that's how to have burnout. Now most people think sitting down in a chair and assuming that it's going to hold you up, how could that produce burnout? But that's another example of where you ignore impermanence. You assume that the chair will hold you. Whether the chair holds you or not is not that big a deal. Like, say you sit in a chair and it holds you, fine.

[71:08]

So sit in a chair and it collapses under you, fine. Most people don't get killed from that. But the attitude of assuming that the chair is going to hold you up burns you out. It tires you to go around assuming that chairs and floors are going to hold you. It enlivens you to, when you sit down in a chair, to sit down and not fall into assuming that it's going to hold you That makes sitting down in a chair a much more lively thing to do. And it's not harder. It's actually more alive. Whereas the other way, which is easy, seems to be easy, even though the other way is not hard, it seems to be easy to assume that the chair is going to hold you. It turns out that that robs you of a little energy. Not exactly robs you, but it gradually burns you out and takes away your vitality. And you don't notice it because it's so little. But if you sit down on many, many chairs during the day, and each time you assume it's going to hold you, by the end of the day you would be a total wreck.

[72:14]

That's a kind of outrageous statement, but I'm not kidding. Now, it would be pretty hard to do that and continue it. Like if you actually kept sitting down, like if we did that exercise now and we just sat down, And you assume it's going to be there. And stand up. And you sat down again and assume it's going to be there. After a while you'd say, now what are we doing this for? After about the thousandth chair you'd say. You start to notice that each time you thought it was going to be the same chair, you start to feel sick. You start to feel bad about treating every chair that you sat in, even the same chair, over and over again as the same chair. You start to realize that it drains you And the same way when you meet each person, to assume that each person is a solid, permanent thing, and that you're meeting the same person over and over, you start to get drained. It's tiring to meet the same person over and over, only because it's tiring to ignore that it's not the same person.

[73:20]

You have to make a big effort to not notice that things have changed. So you're actually working against reality, and that tires you. But if you meet each person in each chair, in each door, realizing this is not the same person I saw a second ago. This is called respect. You respect people when you don't assume they're the same person they were a second ago. You respect the chair. It held me before, but you respect the chair when you don't assume it's going to hold you. That way of living doesn't drain you. The other way... although you don't notice it because it comes in such little packages, each time you meet something and assume that it's what it was before, it robs you of a little vitality because it drains you because you're holding on to something that has changed. And that tires you because it's changing and you're fighting against this change. So just little exercises like when you take a hold of a doorknob or when you sit in a chair, when you meet a person...

[74:27]

You know, don't grasp them as what you thought they were before. Try to, like, look again. Try to, like, not fall into assuming that it's the same old person. Sit in a chair, but be ready for it to fall out. Or notice that assumption and let go of that assumption that's going to hold you. It may seem more difficult, but actually it conserves your energy and keeps you alive. It keeps you vital. Even that won't keep you alive, but you'll be vital until you croak. The other way, you're always draining yourself from your resistance to change. You're burning yourself out unnecessarily. There are several hands here. Let's see. You had your hand, didn't you? What's your name? Kathy, yes? Well, I'm so glad that you just talked about the vitality, because I seem to have a recurring doubt that comes around in my practice.

[75:42]

A recurring doubt? Yeah. Yes. The same problem. I have it explained to me. I get clear on it for a while. And then it comes around again, roughly a year later, in those cases. Yes. And it has to do with this question of vitality. There are times when I'll feel as if we're being encouraged to live to some degree in a dead zone between the folks there with us and noticing the folks there. And I think to myself, how is it that sitting very still And who will you experience and enjoy? How is it that that is more alive than, you know, running down to those three-room dance floor and laughing at the wonderful things you are? At the same time, the pain, the torments, you know, the notice, the understanding, the fear, you are the exact opposite of what is happening now.

[76:54]

Okay, I got it. So I'll just go, she's saying, how is it more alive to quietly contemplate pain than, for example, to scream in pain. And it's not necessarily more alive. But in order to be fully alive, you have to be mindful. If you scream in pain, that's a certain amount of aliveness. But if you scream in pain and you're also mindful, you're more alive. more of you is awake to the moment. So running down the hill singing and screaming in joy could be a complete moment of full self-expression.

[78:10]

Or you could be inattentive to certain things and not have been expressing the fullness of your being. Similarly, being quiet and still and feeling a joy that totally fills your body and mind and fills the whole universe, and the whole universe fills you, and you're completely mindful and present, that could be a full self-expression. Or you could be sitting quietly and feeling some pleasure, some joy, but not be fully experiencing it. So the point is that fully experiencing means that the totality of your vitality is engaged and being realized. And in that totality you are also liberated from your current situation. And you are fearless, you are compassionate, you are completely with what's happening,

[79:15]

And you act in accord with what's happening and therefore you facilitate reality for yourself and all beings. And you can do that running down a hill, running up a hill, rolling down a hill, sitting still. Any situation can be that way. In the situation there is kindness, there is benefit. The precepts, the Bodhisattva precepts are all upheld. That's what we're here for is to have moments like that and to let go of them and enter into another one. Was there another question over there? Did you have a question? What is your name again? Debra. Debra? I have a practical question. Practical question, good. In terms of finding a teacher... Yes? ...establishing... Well, teachers do find you, but they don't necessarily tell you that they find you.

[80:29]

They wait for you to find them, too. So I think just basically if you feel openness to a teacher, that's the first step. If you don't feel open to a teacher, then you have to wait until you do. When you feel open to it, then just go places where there are supposedly teachers and bring your openness and see if there's somebody there that you feel some affinity for, some attraction to. And then you can check out this person according to certain criteria. If you want a teacher for Mahayana Buddhism, for the way of benefiting all beings, then there's various things you can check. For example, are they patient with their students? Do they have good students? You know, do students treat each other nicely? Or they just have, you know, good students who are competitive and hate each other, you know? Are they constantly studying themselves? Is the teacher continuing to study?

[81:31]

If it's Buddhism, is he studying Buddhism, or is she studying Buddhism? Do they have an understanding? Are they compassionate? Are they wise? Are they ethical? Do they understand interdependence? They seem to understand interdependence. In the way they teach interdependence, do they have an understanding that makes sense to you? Do they know more than you? And things like that. And again, are they patient with their students? Are they kind and compassionate to their students? And if so, then just keep watching and seeing if they satisfy those requirements. And watch for quite a while before you, you know, take a big step to have some of your teacher. But in the meantime, you can go talk to the person and bring certain practice questions and see how they handle them. See if they're patient with you. See if they listen to you. See if they respect you. I think you want a teacher that respects you and that's patient with you and kind to you. And some teachers have trouble being kind and patient with us.

[82:37]

So be kind and patient with them until they grow up and become your teacher. And also, it's okay to make your teacher into a good teacher. You might find somebody that's not really a very good teacher, but you feel like they're potentially a good teacher and you could try to help them become a better teacher. And then you could ask them if they would like you to help them. They might say, yeah, please help me. And then gradually you could grow yourself a nice teacher. It may take a long time, but if they're willing to learn, you can help them. Students can teach teachers how to teach. You can tell the teacher, well, you know, the way you put that, I didn't understand. Would you say it another way? Say it another way. The Buddha was like that. When the Buddha first started teaching, He was doing his thing, but people didn't get it. So they said, no, try another way, try another way. And then finally he tried it. He said, that's good, we got that. Now try to do that again. So you can teach the teacher. Yes? What's your name? Eric, yes. This is the end of tape number three.

[83:40]

Please go now to tape number four to continue.

[83:42]

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