In one of the early teachings that I already told you about, the Buddha said that everything exists, this is one extreme. Everything does not exist, this is another extreme. The Tathagata teaches a middle. Depending on ignorance, karmic formations arise. Depending on karmic formations, consciousness arises. And so on up to, depending on all this, the mass of suffering arises. So in teaching the middle way, usually the way the Buddha begins teaching the middle is by teaching dependent co-arising or by teaching that beings and things and the things of beings have a other dependent character.

[01:19]

That everything arises independent on something other than itself. or arises in dependence upon other things than itself. So the Buddha's trying to teach us the way things are which is between the extreme of exaggerated existence and then exaggerated non-existence, and he begins by teaching dependent co-arising. So everything that you see, everything that you know has this other dependent quality, other dependent character. The Buddha also teaches that everything you see also has a merely conceptual character.

[02:57]

And it has character of a kind of exaggerated sense of whatever it is you know. And we tend to take this exaggerated sense as what the thing actually is. Whereas the thing basically is something that exists by way of dependence on other things. And we sort of imagine that it doesn't depend on other things. And we confuse those two. And the imagination that things on their own, rather than independence on other things, it kind of tends to predominate.

[04:13]

So we take things mostly as our ideas about them. And this is a source of painful emotions and and karma, actions which cause suffering. So I'm trying to encourage the meditation on dependent co-arising, which means to encourage the meditation on the other dependent character of every experience. But you can't see this other dependent character. Even though it is the basis of our imaginations, we take our imaginations to be what's there, and we can't see the other dependent.

[05:39]

And even if we didn't take the other dependent to be our imagination, if we actually looked at the other dependent character directly, we really wouldn't be able to see anything. Because what we're used to thinking of seeing something as is something that we can grasp. something that we have an image of, something that has an appearance, something that doesn't have an appearance. Or when we look at the aspect of life that's not an appearance, it looks like nothing's there. We're used to thinking that if things don't have a surface, it's like there's nothing there. But actually,

[06:43]

there is this non-superficial basic way things are, which is not superficial. It is actually inconceivable. One Zen teacher said, his name was Yuen Mun, he said, all of you right where you sit, each and every one of you has a beam of light shining continuously. And everybody you look at also has a beam of light shining continuously. This is your other dependent character. This is your other dependent nature.

[07:48]

This is the way that your existence actually arises and lives in dependence on other things. You all have this light all the time. Now, he goes on, as of old, far removed from seeing and knowing, though it's a light, When asked about it, if you try to get a hold of it, it's dark and dim, isn't it? So another way to say this, some other ways to say it is that each of us and everybody we meet and everything we meet and everything we experience has a light, has a light nature. or a natural light, and its light is how it depends on things other than itself.

[08:55]

Another way to say this is that everything has a mysterious nature because we can't actually see this other dependent nature. It's inconceivable. But when we do see something, we are actually the other dependent characters right there, but then we superimpose a false imagination on top of it. So how do we meditate on what we can't see? How do we meditate on what is incomprehensible? Well, we can't see it, and it's incomprehensible and ungraspable, but it is right under our nose all the time, so we kind of know where to look for it, even though we can't see it.

[10:04]

We look for it in everything we do see. It is the basis of the way things look to us. When you look at somebody, there actually is somebody there. It's just that they're not the way they appear to you. They're actually more like a light. Another way to say it is that everything you see is actually beyond what you think it is. So meditating on the other dependent is training the mind in what we call non-thinking, or training your mind in what's beyond thinking, or training your mind to go beyond your thinking. Every time you meet somebody, what is it, every time you have an experience, every time we have an experience, we don't meet the experience empty-handed.

[11:12]

We slap it with an appearance. We don't let things come to us without being clothed in appearances. We don't do that. So that's just the way it is, basically. That's part of the way things are for us. We don't just experience things, we think about them. Now here's an example which really isn't an example, but it's kind of like an example. It's more like an analogy example. If I hold something in my hand like this thing you might call a bell or a chime, there is something in my hand, and part of what it is that's in my hand

[12:15]

has a nature that it's what I think it is. But the initiation in defining the middle way, which is the way to peace and freedom, is to learn to meditate on what is in my hand that's beyond how it appears, how I think about it. Where is the mystery here? this thing actually has a mysterious quality that I can't see. It has a light all the time, but if I try to find it, it goes dim. The light and the light, and although I can't see it, I do hear, I'm told what the light is. The light is how this thing depends on things other than itself.

[13:18]

That's the light of this thing. But again, you can't, and I can't see how this thing depends on other things. You can have, and I can have a story a fantasy about how this thing depends on other things, like it depends on the metal it's made out of, it depends on some craftsman, it depends on some tradition, it depends on, you can say many things, but still those are not all the things that it depends on, and the way it depends on those things. So just can we start out by looking at you, me looking at you, you looking at me and saying that there's a light there that I can't see and the light is how what you're looking at depends on things other than itself for its existence.

[14:23]

Can we train ourselves to be mindful of that teaching, the teaching which says whatever you look at, whatever you experience has this quality. That's not all it has, but that's the initiatory mode of meditation. Today I thought I was having some meetings with people at Green Gulch and in the formal meetings people come in, I'm sitting on the floor cross-legged with my robes on, People come in and they bow to me. They bow towards this person who they are having an experience of usually when they come in the room. And they bow to me. Today I felt like that bow is like a ritual enactment that they're bowing to me.

[15:30]

the mystery. They're bowing to what they can't see. What they see is a person with short hair and robes and they think, you know, that's a priest or a teacher or something like that. They think these things. They think good teacher, bad teacher. Okay? That's what they see. Or I'm not sure what kind of teacher. They think that's what they think. But the bowing It's kind of like it's not bowing to the good teacher or the bad teacher. It's really, it seemed today to be bowing to this mystery of what is that thing over there? Bowing to the light of that thing, which everything has. It's like bowing and surrendering, if you excuse the expression, surrendering the arrogance of that we have in thinking that what things are or believing that what things are is what we think of them.

[16:36]

And there's sometimes, you know, like nowadays you think, well, we have this horrible situation But I'm suggesting that in this horrible situation, these horrible things we're being confronted with, each of them has a light. Each of them has another dependent character. But when it comes to things that are really horrible or maybe things that are really lovely, wonderful, we say, maybe we say, I don't know, we have some hesitation to like look beyond what we think it is. Like if something's really terrible, really frightening, really dangerous, really evil, we feel like, well, now I can't like think, I can't open to that this thing Or do I dare to open to that this thing has a light, that this thing has a character which is beyond what I think it is?

[17:48]

That horrible and horrible event, a painful and cruel thing, a thing that appears to be harming life, that it has a nature, right at that time, which is beyond my thoughts that it's a terrible thing. We maybe hesitate at that time. That's why it's easier to start learning this meditation when you're not, you know, in the middle of a war. When you're like looking at something like a flower. And you can say, oh, I'm looking at this flower as though a dream. I see the flower, there is a flower there, but actually what I see is my dream of the flower. And I hear the teaching that there's something there which we call the flower.

[18:50]

And I use my dream as a basis to call it a flower, but there's something there which is beyond my dream, which I do see, something I can't see, a light in that flower. Maybe easier to do with a flower than with something really cruel, but it's the same. The encouragement to look at things this way is that if I hear this teaching that there's something about this flower which is beyond my thinking. I will treat this, I will relate to this flower in a virtue, I will come to relate. My behavior will become more and more virtuous in relationship to this flower. And similarly, taking another step, the response to something which appears to be really evil and harmful.

[19:57]

your behavior will become more virtuous in response to it if we apply this teaching. Sort of between a flower and some current events, someone came to me and said, when people are being rude to me, how can I know what the appropriate response is? And I think I rephrased her question by saying, you said when people are being rude to you, how about when I think people are being rude to me? How can I know what the appropriate response is? And then I changed the question again to when I see or when I think that someone's being rude to me, how can the appropriate response emerge? Then after it emerges, you might say, well, how will I know that it was the appropriate response?

[21:03]

But having the requirement of knowing the appropriate response before it comes may make it harder for it to emerge. Like that example of the person asked the Buddha a question. He said, you're like a person with an arrow in him. that when the doctor comes, he has questions to the doctor about, you know, how is he going to do it and what is his credentials. So I said to her, when you see this rudeness, remember the teaching that this thing that's appearing to you as rudeness, number one, it doesn't happen by its own power. this rudeness appears to you, the rudeness appears in dependence on things other than rudeness. There's no, like, core rudeness there.

[22:04]

There is a rudeness there. There is a rudeness there, but this rudeness depends on other things for its existence, for its birth and for its momentary existence. Also, what this rudeness is, is actually, it has a character, it has a nature which is beyond your thoughts that it's rude. If you can meditate on the rudeness that way, if you can remember also the teaching that this rudeness is actually a lack of essence in terms of producing itself. then the appropriate response to the rudeness can emerge. As it emerges from this meditation, you may not even be thinking about whether it's appropriate or not. Later you may wonder and want to know that it was appropriate. But I'm saying, aside from your knowing, the appropriate response emerges from that meditation.

[23:10]

So an example of this situation is that if you take this thing, you hold something in your hand like a cup, hold a cup in your hand, there actually is a cup in your hand and also there is a feeling or a touch of the cup. that actually something is happening. The actual event called touching a cup or the event of touch, it's happening. But it's like, if you can imagine like touching something and then start thinking about touching it and even like write a poem about touching it. And as you start thinking about touching it, or talking about touching it, or singing about touching it, even though you continue to hold it in your hand the whole time, and holding it in your hand is the basis of all this talk and think about this touch, you lose track of the touch.

[24:29]

And you sometimes can stop talking and suddenly the touch reemerges. That's how we get out of touch with the other dependent, by thinking about it. Except the difference is that in this case the touch, which you're always, whenever anything happens you actually are touching this other dependent character, this touch, this character is inconceivable. So I guess I would ask you, does it make sense to you, I could say do you understand, but does it make sense to you or do you agree, but also does it make sense to you that if you were meditating this way on things, this would be conducive to you not taking them too seriously or not seriously enough? Does it make sense to you that this would help you not care too much about things or too little about things?

[25:39]

if you're doing this type of meditation. And also I ask you, do you have some, I don't know, some strange feelings about meditating on the mysterious nature of everything you experience? Does that seem strange? So anyway, maybe that's enough for now if you have something to say about any of this. Well, I don't know if this is getting ahead of me, but I can sort of think of... You don't know if it's what? Getting ahead of what you... Yes. I mean, I can see three different ways you might approach this, and I'm not sure whether you're saying any one of them would... Like, you could just sort of go around with it kind of on the back burner of your mind that things are not as they appear. Yes? Yes. Or you could sort of take a particular thing, like you're saying, like a cup or something, but maybe something kind of neutral in terms of how you feel about it, and really try to look at it deeply.

[26:54]

Maybe you're saying you can't see the light, but to see something about it, see how it's not the weak thing it is. Yeah, I would say that is a step, but that step is recommended after you're well grounded in meditating on that things... What did you say you had in the back burner? Things are not as they appear. Yeah, yeah. And so in this meditation, instead of bringing that on having the back burner, you have it on the meditation on the other dependent character is to bring that on the front burner. So it gets applied, you're mindful of that in relationship to everything that happens. Once that's well established, then your behavior starts getting transformed in such a way that now you would be able to do the analysis into not exactly the deeper nature, but the analysis of what it is it's covering.

[28:00]

What is the nature of the covering? And also, does the covering actually exist in what is covering? That analysis follows. And that brings you, in a sense, deeper. But I find that, here's what I find, actually, is that as we're meditating on the other dependent, if people start to even try too much to try to understand the meditation on the other dependent, it's because they're not meditating on the other dependent. In other words, if people start caring too much about being able to do this meditation, it shows that they aren't doing it yet. And so that caring too much is a sign that either they're going ahead, in a sense it's like going ahead to get too involved in analysis before you can not take the analysis too seriously.

[29:05]

So then what about the one which to me is sort of, I think it's a next step for me, but I can't say whether it's the next one or the first one, where the things that cause you suffering, you know, the thing that you're alerted to the thing because the evidence that you took it, that you misapprehended it, is that you're in pain. Mm-hmm. Yes, what about that? Well, that would be another way to do this meditation, to take the things that are bothering you. Well, sort of, except that basically is just telling you you're not doing the meditation, which is part of the meditation. That's a way to see that you're not really into the meditation. Because you are totally going for the... You're believing the superimposition, the false superimposition. Now, it's also possible to... Yeah. So you're believing that.

[30:07]

I take it back that you're not really doing the meditation when you feel the pain. I take it back. Because you could be doing the meditation and still the superimposition could still be working. You can simultaneously be thinking, this person is such and such. This person is really being rude and disrespectful of me. So that's going on. And you think that's true and you feel pain for it. But you could be simultaneously saying, at the same time that this is happening, you could be saying, And what's actually going on here, not actually, I should take it back to actually, but what's going on here in terms of initiation into the meditation on the middle way, what's going on here is beyond my thoughts about this which are causing me pain. So again, the word mystery, I like the word mystery because I recently looked up the etymology and its root meaning is initiation or closing the eyes.

[31:08]

So it partly means something you can't see, but part of what the initiation is about is to start looking at something you can't see, meditating on something you can't see, because what you do see is causing you suffering. But what you do see turns out to be related based on what you can't see. What you do see is not based on nothing. It's, although it doesn't exist, it's a thing that's based on something that does exist. But what does exist and the way things exist, you can't see. But just remembering that teaching while you're simultaneously hurting because you believe what you're laying over this, by hearing the teaching about this character, this other dependent way things really do exist. By hearing that teaching, while you're simultaneously covering the way things exist with your imagination, still you're changing your orientation.

[32:14]

And the rudeness starts to change. Your feeling about the rudeness starts to change. And I think maybe... There's two things I want to say about some of these changes. One is that one of the things that starts happening is you actually start to feel sometimes more calm and relaxed. Now, in the meditation where we're practicing calming meditation, we give up discursive thought. We relax with discursive thought and we calm down. Here, we're using discursive thought in such a way that it actually also leads to a kind of calm. Not quite the same. But this is more of a wisdom practice which also can lead to some calm. But this calm is not coming from giving up agitating thoughts. This calm is coming from considering that things might be not the way that you're upset by.

[33:21]

Because this mystery is not upsetting. This other dependent character does not upset us. It's the imaginary non-other dependent character. It's the independent character that we project on things that upsets us. So there's two things that upset us. One is basically this superimposition of false status onto things. That upsets us. And the other thing that upsets us is discursive thought arising in relationship to that. So you can, if you give up that discursive thought arising from this basic confusion, you calm down. But still there's this basic confusion which still bothers us. And there's another way that things will change, but I would like you to help me remember to talk about that later. Because I think, now I'd like to know how you feel about meditating in such a way that you're mindful

[34:29]

that whatever you see has this other dependent character. How do you feel about that? How is that for you? Can you open to that practice? Yes. I think I... Sometimes I can do it, and it's when I acknowledge that I don't know, and I become humble in the situation. Yeah. And consider, you know, when at the actual moment that I'm in the conversation with someone and I think I really, I know what I'm talking about, and it gets a little rough, And there is a moment that I consider, maybe they have a point. And then at that point, I'm opening. And sometimes, and many times actually, I see that I was wrong. It is not easy, but... Yeah.

[35:39]

So this kind of practice, it does... I don't think it's humiliating exactly, but it's more humble. It's more... It brings an element of humility into your experience that there's something happening here which is beyond your intelligent thoughts. so that there is a humbling side to it. Yes? Maybe in line with the humbling element, I find it painful sometimes. I don't want to... I almost sometimes don't want to do this, that there's... I don't want to give up. You're making a grasping gesture with your hand? Yeah. Did you mean you don't want to give up grasping? Is that what you mean? Probably. Yeah. Because this is... I don't want to give up. Yeah, this meditation is like, you know, it feels like it's not a grasping thing. I didn't say that unconsciously, but that's how I experience it.

[36:44]

Yeah, I prefer to keep doing, I would prefer to keep my grasp on what's happening. And that's part of the reason why we might be afraid to do this meditation when we're grasping something as dangerous because we might feel like, well, if I stopped grasping it, I might be more vulnerable to this danger. or I might be irresponsible. Right? If you don't grasp your idea of what ethical precepts mean, you might think, well, then I wouldn't practice them. But actually, the surprising thing is that if you look at some precept or consider some precept and remember that this precept has a character, has a light, which is beyond what you think the precept is, and you orient towards the precepts in this light of its other dependent character, then the actual virtuous behavior will come forth in relationship to the precepts.

[37:45]

But if you think that the precepts are what you think they are, if you believe you're thinking about what a precept is, then you'll care too much or too little about that precept. You'll take it too seriously. not seriously enough and that will be non-virtuous behavior will emerge just like you know like a zen center sometimes you know part of the practice is to wash dishes because we eat and the dishes you know get food on them we have to wash them so people sometimes people are washing dishes in a group And some people really take washing dishes seriously because it's a spiritual practice. And some other people, when they see these people washing dishes in this apparently overly serious way, they think that they don't want to wash dishes well ever again.

[38:47]

Because this person's really into washing dishes really, really well, and it's something that really bothers them about it. So this person is washing, so this one person, both of them, okay, one person is like taking it really seriously. This is washing dishes. This is what washing dishes is supposed to be done. This is the way it's supposed to be done. This is what a clean dish is. And they believe that their idea of dish washing is actually dish washing. And so the way they wash dishes is like, It's kind of like a very arrogant operation. Now, this person over here is watching them and seeing this arrogant operation. There is an arrogant operation going on there. But what this person thinks of the arrogant operation is they believe that their view of the arrogant operation is really what it is. But actually, there's a light there. There's a light in the dishes.

[39:51]

There's a light in dishwashing, which the first guy doesn't get. And then there's a light in the other guy taking it too seriously, which the second guy doesn't get. So the first guy is like driving everybody else away from the dishwashing area. And everybody that's being driven away are people who are believing their idea of him. So then everybody's like fighting, you know. Like one guy's like... getting these dishes really clean, but like driving everybody away from Zen. And everybody else is like getting self-righteous and say, well, I'm not going to practice Zen anymore because it's so sick. Everybody's being non-virtuous because everybody's forgetting the teaching and the other dependent character of dishwashing and dishwashers. So then everybody responds inappropriately. Inappropriately means not conducive to peace, not appropriate to peace, appropriate to war. But that's why it's good to practice washing dishes because washing dishes is a situation where theoretically you could experiment with this meditation.

[41:03]

It wouldn't kill anybody if you... you remember that dishwashing actually has another dependent character, has a mysterious character beyond your usual idea of what dishwashing is. You could do that and still maybe wash the dishes. might wander around a little bit unusually you know you might stick your hands you know in some different kind of soap than usual or something because you're you know you're not so sure what dishwashing is anymore because you're opening to this but it's not that dangerous so this is that's why we do the dishwashing because people can like experiment you can do this kind of meditation in daily life the calming practice is harder to do in daily life But you can do this practice in daily life. You can apply it because you can use your discursive thought. You don't have to give it up. You can use it in that kind of way. Does that make sense? But there's a little bit of letting go of control in the dishwashing area then.

[42:06]

Like, you know, a little bit of letting go of control in the sense of Dishwashing is what I think it is, period. It's more like dishwashing has a character, has a nature, which is what my thinking about it is, is part of what dishwashing is, is what I think it is. That's part of it. But another part of dishwashing, the initiatory aspect of dishwashing that gets you into the meditation on the middle way, the one is the more humble one. Like, yeah, I do think dishwashing is such and such, and I think that that's the dishwashing, and I think this is not dishwashing. I do think that. But actually dishwashing is beyond my ideas of what dishwashing is and isn't. Okay. Then it's more like you bow to dishwashing, you know? It's like, I don't know what dishwashing is, but I'm going to now bow and meet it and see what happens. But there's a little bit of like losing, giving up some little bit of this grasping there.

[43:11]

Even though the grasping keeps going on, like you still maybe think, doesn't look like that person's washing dishes to me. You still think that, but oops, they're okay. but actually there's something about this person's dishwashing activity which is beyond my idea that they're not washing dishes, or there's something on my idea that they're not washing dishes. There's something beyond that, something mysterious, something radiant, actually, that I can't see, but I remember the teaching that there is such a character to every event, every activity. then you start then you start to be a place you don't really make it happen but the virtuous activity starts to arise in the midst of that meditation not because you're trying to be virtuous but because you're getting out of the way of the virtue so this are you Carl still Carl

[44:16]

Um, the person washing dishes. I'm confused about the word, use the word arrogant. I was thinking perhaps maybe the word obsessive might be used. Maybe the person just wants to do a really good job of doing the dishes. That's their main concern. Maybe they're not really thinking that I'm doing a better job than the other person is. No, not necessarily that, but they would, but... They're arrogant in the sense that they think that their definition of what good dishwashing is is actually what good dishwashing is. That's kind of arrogant. Do we know that? Do we know that's what they're thinking? Pardon? Do we know that's what they're thinking about as they do the dishes? Most people do think that what dishwashing is is what they think it is. I mean, you do think dishwashing is something, right? And most people believe what they think dishwashing is. That's all. And it's kind of arrogant that you would think... Like, for example, I would think you're a jerk. And I would then not just think you're a jerk, but I would... You read my throat.

[45:23]

But I would actually think that my view of you, my ideas about you, my thoughts about you are actually what you are. That's kind of arrogant of me. But I don't want to get too arrogant about that statement. But just to say that my feeling is that when I start looking at you and thinking you're such and such, like even thinking you're a man, you know, this is a man, this is a male, okay, that there's something about you which is beyond my thinking. Even there's something about your maleness that's beyond my thinking that, you know, that you're a male, okay? When I do that, I start to feel more humble. So that kind of shows me the arrogance of the way I am when I'm not remembering that side of things. And again, like I said, the word mystery, it has this thing about closing the eyes. It's like you look at something, it's like close your eyes to the way they appear and then look at them again, kind of.

[46:33]

And I also mentioned the word respect means look again. So people are actually more... Of course we know this. People are more than what we think they are. Now, people think things about us, which is fine, but we're not just what people think about us. We're not even the sum total of what everybody thinks about us. Our body isn't the sum total of what everybody thinks about us, although it's got something to do with what we are, because... ...conceivable radiance that everybody has, we start to feel more humble vis-a-vis our ideas about what people are. But in order to wash dishes, you sort of have to have some thoughts about what dishes, dishwashing is. So it's kind of like that's part of the deal. Most people are mostly involved in what they think about as being what's happening. But if arrogance doesn't work for you, hey, I'll pass on it for now. Pardon?

[47:40]

Yeah, that's a possibility, you know? That's part of what virtuous behavior allows, you know? You can walk in and let somebody else wash the dishes. And this guy who washes the dishes in this way, and there are people like that... at some Zen centers, you know. These people, if this person would let other people wash the dishes, everybody would be happy to come in and wash dishes if that guy wasn't there. You know, that person actually could disqualify himself and say, look, I'm so self-righteous about this dishwashing operation, I think it'd be better if I left. And people say, yeah, really, that would really be, you know, we miss your efforts, but it would be more comfortable to have you not here. Why don't you just sort of take a time out, sort of, you know? I don't know who was next. There was some hand out there somewhere. Martina? Okay. Alicia? Oh, you have your hand raised, but it doesn't... You're just scratching your head.

[48:45]

It would be easy, not easy, but it's possible for me to think of being wrong about my impression of other people and behavior and instances that require me to have the impression that I don't have all the facts about. It's harder for me to think that I'm not seeing an object for what it really is, the material world, but not just my impression of the activity or behavior or my response to it. Mm-hmm. Or what you had in your hand example. Mm-hmm. I can't get my brain around that. I can't get my brain around there's something that's there that's not there. Well, it's not exactly that you're wrong about things. Not exactly that. Because, you know, there's some base... to you having these fantasies about people. And so it's not quite, well, maybe it is wrong, but anyway, you have more trouble with physical things than with living beings?

[49:50]

Yeah, because I can see where in this watching example, you know, my impression of the activity that I encountered can be completely wrong. And it's not certainly destined to what was happening. Again, it's not completely wrong. Well, could it? It could be completely wrong. It's not exactly completely wrong because it's part of what's happening. And it's the basis for being able to talk about things. If you think this is... A bell, in a sense, you're right, it is a bell. Of course you know that, you understand that this is not a bell in the sense that this is the word bell, right? And you understand that the word bell is not this. You understand that. But it's a bell in the sense that we use the bell, the word bell, to refer to this.

[50:55]

Okay? Okay? But you also think this thing's over here on its own, separate from you. That's the way it looks to you. And you kind of agree to that. Okay? That's... And that way sort of is dominating in such a way that you can't see how this thing is other-dependent. You can hardly even be open to its other-dependence because of this superimposition of this solidness onto this. True. It has a bell-ness. Exactly. It has a bell-ness. Exactly. Right. So now we're just saying, and that's sort of the basis upon which, you know, you talk about this thing, that bell-ness. Okay? And that's what you think, that's sort of how it appears to you, and you agree with it. So you got that part. But we're not going to get into that so much right now.

[51:58]

We're not trying to get rid of that. We're just trying to say, because that's the part that we're going to analyze later. What I'd like to do now is for you to just realize that there's a quality of this bell which you can't see. There's a mysterious aspect of this bell which you can't see. And orienting towards and meditating on the mysterious radiant quality of this light which you can't see, the other dependent character of this light, this bell which you can't see, the fact that this bell is is a lack of essence in terms of producing itself. There's no essence here that makes this happen. Meditating on that gets you into the meditation and gets you settled. And this meditation has to keep going on all the time. And based on that meditation, then you can turn to look at what you believe the bell is. And if it's hard to do with material objects, Fine. That's where you challenge. That's where you're going to grow.

[52:59]

Some people maybe have an easier time with material objects than with people. Some people have easier time with people who are behaving like this rather than people who are behaving like that. We all have the areas where we kind of feel like, I can't do that meditation now. So start, find some area where you can do it. Find something you can do it with. Like flowers are nice. And just say, okay, I have a dream of this flower. I accept that. But there's something about this flower which is beyond my dream. And it's this other dependent character of the flower that's beyond my dream. And just try to remember that. Just be mindful of that. That's being mindful of the Dharma which you're applying to... Mindful of the... of the dharma teaching which you're applying to the dharma of the flower. We say the dharma of the flower which means the dharma of the thing we call flower and the dharma of the thing which we think exists out there separately.

[54:01]

And the dharma of the thing which appears to be separate on its own is that the thing has a nature which is not on its own. But it also has a nature of appearing like it is on the own. It has the nature also, it has a fantasy nature. So things have a fantasy nature, which we easily see. That's what we think. But it has another nature, which is more fundamental. Because that other nature, the other dependent nature is the basis for the fantasy nature. It's also the basis for the ultimate nature. But let's start by seeing if we can, little by little, spend more of our time bringing this teaching to bear on each event. We're spending all of our time as it is now. All of our time is spent dealing with events. We're doing that all day. We got that part down.

[55:03]

Okay? And all of our time is also spent, generally speaking, thinking about the events. and believing them. Now, just bring this teaching to bear on this same process, which can go on as usual, but you start to integrate this teaching that in addition to things happening, I'm going to remember that the way they happen is beyond the way I think that they happen. I'm going to continue to think about them happening a certain way, but that's not the way they happen. That's just my idea. As a matter of fact, my idea about the way they happen is false because I think they happen by their own power. That's what I think. And I think I happen by my own power and I think I act by my own power. This misconception pervades. If you leave that alone for a while and just start to integrate this other teaching into this mix, that things don't happen by their own power. In other words, they do happen by other power. Try to bring that in.

[56:06]

Bring it in. Now can I call on you, Martina? Yes. But what happened to you this week is like, when I hold in mind that I perhaps have a concept of something, and this concept is probably not right in my seat, so it backfired to the mystery. Yes. And leave the space for the mystery. Yes. That makes me feel insecure in connection with standing up for something I believe in. Yeah, right. That's why I say start with a flower. You know? Start with flowers and big, nice red balls and sand and the ocean. Start with that stuff. But when I have situations where I feel like, you know, okay, perhaps I have the wrong perspective, the wrong perspective about this person, and I give this space, but I still, the teachings come in another situation, all right?

[57:08]

And it's just like, I kind of get, kind of, kind of, then I question my own ability to see what is true and what is not true, and sometimes I see myself getting passive, Yeah. Because I feel kind of insecure. Just giving the space to perhaps I'm not right. So there's this fine line. Yeah, right. That's what I was talking about. And you particularly don't want to be passive in some situation where cruelty is happening. Right? You don't want to be insecure in a situation where cruelty is happening. You want to have confidence in that situation so that, you know, so that you can accept and fulfill your responsibility. Right? And you think it... Huh? Yes? Well, believing that you do the right thing is...

[58:13]

usually what that means is that believing that what you think is the right thing is right. That's what usually that means. Like you think this is right, and you believe it. Right? Or sometimes you think it's right, but you don't really believe it. So then how can you do it if you don't believe it? Is that your problem? If you think something might be good, but you really don't believe it's good, then you feel kind of insecure. You don't know if it's good or not, right? Yeah. So then how are you going to do the good thing if you don't know what the good thing is, right? You're kind of afraid of that situation, it sounds like. When you asked about how I was once in this meditation, it's like, that's my response, and I actually feel more insecure, you know, like more because I have to let go of what you spoke about before, of control, you know.

[59:24]

So I feel like much easier when I keep feeling I have control. It's much easier when what? When I have the feeling I'm in control of something. Yeah. And I feel right. But like letting visual genes come in, actually, I feel like... Reduce? Yeah. Yeah. That makes sense. That's part of why I asked, because I thought somebody might feel that way. So what should we do about that? How do we take care of that feeling? Well, one way is just, you know, stop thinking about this other dependent character and just go back to just try to, like, reinforce your belief that what you think is really what's going on. And if you can get back there. You're arrogant enough. That went up. Yeah. So this does mean that I open to the fact that not even so much that I'm wrong, but maybe I could just open to that, that maybe I'm wrong.

[60:32]

Maybe things aren't really the way I appear. Maybe they do appear that way, But I don't have to, like, get into, like, believing that. But I don't have to, like, get rid of the way they appear either. So something appears to be inappropriate and something appears to be appropriate, something appears to be helpful. It does appear that way. I don't necessarily have to get rid of that. But to believe that it really is that way That part I could maybe give up eventually. But I'm suggesting that before you get into that, first of all do this other meditation which will soften you up. And rather than reinforcing or even weakening your sense of belief in what you think is right, you'll start relating to your thoughts about what's right in a different way.

[61:38]

you'll still think maybe, this is right. But by doing this meditation that there's something about what's going on here that's beyond my ideas of right and wrong, beyond my thinking of right and wrong, it softens you and makes you more a vehicle for virtuous behavior while still continuing maybe to believe that what you think is really what's happening. And based on that meditation, you'll be more grounded in virtue and have more confidence and have a better basis to then start looking and examining whether what you think really applies to anything. And you'll find out the way it does apply and you'll find out the way it doesn't. You'll find out what can be left alone and what needs to be put aside. But we need to be grounded in virtue that comes from this meditation before we can address this other aspect.

[62:40]

And as we sense addressing this other aspect, that's part of what makes it difficult for us to meditate on the other dependent, because we think various things will change, and they will. But some of them won't change so much. Yes? What's your name again? Julia. When you were first asking how we respond to this meditation, Even though I feel like I'm just a beginner and just trying to understand everything. But my initial reaction was kind of excitement in a way, because it kind of opens everything up in a new way. And as far as a way of just coping with the events and things, I thought it would be helpful So it was kind of exciting that things wouldn't be as black or white. It was kind of like a relief or opening in a strange way, even though I don't know if I fully understand what you're saying.

[63:43]

Right. That's what I was saying before, is that there can be a kind of relief or relaxation that can come with this. And this is the thing I was going to mention before that you didn't remind me to do, but I remember myself. that when you open to this teaching, which means when you open to like remembering this teaching when you look at things and when you hear things and when you think things, when you remember the teaching and you open to it, you also start to open to radical impermanence. You start to open to the impermanence of things, which again is part of this humility thing. Arrogance goes more with permanence. Humility goes more with fragility and impermanence. So as I open my mind to the mysterious nature of everything, it also starts to make possible for me to see how changeable things are. Also, as you open your mind not just to the mysterious nature of things, but also to the other dependent nature, as you start to remember this person, this event, this thing,

[64:54]

exists in dependence on things other than itself, as you start to meditate on that more and more and open to that teaching more and more and soften around that teaching, you also start to see more and more clearly, actually see impermanence. You can't see how things are other dependent, but you can see impermanence actually, more actually, because you can see it. So as you open to one thing, you start opening to other things. But you also start to open to some anxiety. So also you start to become more aware of your anxiety around your thinking and how you usually think if you can get control that you wouldn't have anxiety. But actually the anxiety comes from trying to get control. So this is part of the difficulty. Yes? about caring too much or too little, I was thinking about whether that's an absolute or, in a sense, or whether it depends on what you care too little or too much about.

[66:08]

I mean, are there... I'm talking about caring too much or too little about every event. Each event, like having a cold, brushing your teeth, the weather, the war, cruelty, kindness, sweetness, rudeness, whatever the phenomena you're dealing with, we tend to care too much or too little about, because we believe our thinking about it. If you believe your thinking about things, you generally speaking will care too much or too little about things, unless your thinking has evolved to the point where you actually don't believe it anymore. But I just said, when you believe your thinking is what's happening. Now, if you just believe your thinking is your thinking, but you don't really... you can actually understand, not just theoretically, but you actually understand that it doesn't apply to this thing you're looking at, then you not only will respond appropriately to the thing, but you'll actually be liberated from suffering.

[67:09]

In the meantime, to start Liberating ourselves from excessive involvement with things Meditating on this thing will start to balance So I often like like I said here, I think I'd my joke is generally speaking most of the women I know Care too much about their children and too little about pro football and most of the men I know care too little for their children and too much about pro football and You know, everybody's got their imbalances. They care too much about some things, more than they should. Most women don't care enough about pro football. Like, you know, somewhere... What's pro football? Yeah, see? Some men don't follow the pattern. So you don't judge... appearing enough or too little by the gravity of the situation.

[68:16]

Correct. Because the gravity of the situation sounds like you're going to take it too seriously. You know? Like, if it's a grave situation, then it's okay to take it too seriously. But Suzuki Roshi said, what we're doing is far too important to be taken seriously. Now maybe he said far too important to take too seriously, but I think just to take seriously. Or this thing is far too unimportant not to be taken seriously. Okay? Treat the heavy as though it were light. Treat the light as though it were heavy. When you pick up something light, pick it up like you're picking up a mountain. When you pick up something heavy, pick it up like it's light.

[69:17]

Of course, it's hard to pick up something that's heavy light, but pick it up like that. In other words, heavy things, there's something about heavy things which is beyond your idea that they're heavy. And there's something about light things which is beyond your idea that they're light. There's something about grave things that's beyond your idea that they're grave. And there's something about insignificant things that's beyond your idea that they're insignificant. So generally speaking in Zen, the emphasis is on giving more weight to the little things. Because everybody gives weight to the temple burning down. You don't have to tell people to be serious about the temple burning down. What you do need to do is tell people to be light about it. But most of the time, most of the time, the temple isn't burning down. In most Zen temples, life is pretty easy, you know, not easy, but life is pretty harmonious most of the time.

[70:18]

There aren't usually big problems. It's kind of a nice environment usually. So we put the emphasis on all these little things like washing dishes, you know, like treat washing dishes as though it's a big deal, right? Except for this one guy who thinks it's a big deal. He shouldn't take it seriously. Most people don't think washing dishes is a big deal. They think it's a big deal to have to wash them. You know, like, you know. Do you see what I'm saying, Vera? Treat the heavy as though it were light. Treat the light as though it's heavy. In other words, treat things in the way, orient towards them, which is in the way that's beyond the way they appear. So heavy things have as much light as light things. Insignificant things have as much radiance as terribly important things. They all have that light.

[71:19]

This is the way, meditating on this, we enter into the middle way about each thing. Middle way of kindness, middle way of rudeness, middle way of sweetness, middle way of pain, middle way of pleasure. This is how we get into it. To remember to meditate on something that you can't see, but that's there all the time in each thing. It's your light and it's the light of each thing. And what is the light? It's the way things depend on something other than themselves. It's their lack of having an essence that produces itself. That lack of essence is a radiance. So it makes sense that things depend on other things, right?

[72:20]

But we don't look at that. We don't remember that, usually. And just try it and see if you're... I think you're... Like, Juliana already sensed that just even contemplating it, things started to change a little bit for her. And Martina, contemplating things starting to change for her, kind of scary. So you can get a little scared or you can get kind of relieved. When you start seeing impermanence, in some sense, It's a relief in some sense. It's a scary. If you open to this, you're going to open to other things. But that's, this is the initiation. You close your eyes to one, you open your eyes to another. So please give it a try and let's, how many more classes do we have? Four. Four, that's pretty good. So we may be able to get into this practice enough so we can move on to the meditating practice. and analyzing our dreams.

[73:24]

We can do dream analysis, but you have to be more grounded, I think, and familiar with the first meditation before doing dream analysis. Yes? I just wonder, some of this sounds very familiar to the attitude that is looked around this area of multiculturalism and multiple perspectives and radical impermanence. These are ideas that often surface in the culture around here. Would you say that there's some commonality? Berkeley is the retina of the Bay Area. You know? Berkeley's an amazing place. We swim in a lot of this. Yeah. It's not such a comfortable place, although it's difficult. Yeah, a lot of it's going around. Now let's put it to practice, shall we? A lot of good stuff floating around in Berkeley.

[74:28]

Put it to practice. It's not so easy to put it to practice because we're busy, right? We're busy being caught by our ideas. So now let's just like put this teaching into practice. Try, moment by moment, object and person by person, and object by object. See, try to do it. And if you can't do it, okay, I can't do it, then do it where you can do it, like I say, with flowers and salt and stuff like that. And expand it until you do it with, you know, George Bush. Yeah. Some grasping there.

[75:06]

@Transcribed_UNK
@Text_v005
@Score_89.13