This, uh, just wanted to say again that, um, I... I did notice that the attendance in this class is the fullest that I've ever seen here. I don't know what the reason is. I'm a little surprised, because I thought it was kind of hard material. But... maybe that's why he came back, because he didn't... wasn't so clear. Oh, that was simple. I don't need to come to any more classes. Anyway, thanks for coming back regularly. As I mentioned before, the first teaching that we have of the Buddha talks about that avoiding extremes the Tathagata teaches or, excuse me, avoiding extremes the Tathagata realized the middle way, a middle way.

[01:16]

Avoiding extremes the Buddha realizes a middle way. This is the first teaching. And then another fairly early teaching, he said that the world is generally inclined, the world generally leans towards two views or two extremes. This world is generally inclined towards two views. One view is the view of existence and the other view is the view of non-existence.

[02:28]

The world is generally inclined towards two extremes. One is the extreme view of existence, which is the view everything exists. The other extreme view is the view everything does not exist. Without approaching either of these views, that Buddha teaches a doctrine of the middle. And how did he teach the doctrine of the middle? So taught the doctrine of the middle by saying

[03:39]

Depending on X arises Y. Depending on this arises that. That's how I taught the middle. So avoiding extremes, the Buddha realizes the middle and then teaches the middle by teaching, depending on this, that arises. In particular he said, depending on ignorance, karmic formations arise. Depending on karmic formations, dualistic consciousness arises. Depending on dualistic consciousness, blah, blah, blah, blah, up to in this way, in this dependent way, the entire mass of suffering arises. And then he said, depending on the cessation of ignorance,

[04:44]

arises the cessation of karmic consciousness and so on. In this way there is the ceasing or the arising of ceasing of the entire mass of ill. So the Buddha realized the extreme by he realized the middle by avoiding extremes and taught the middle. And the way he first taught the middle was in the form of teaching the way things are which avoids extremes, is that they're other-dependent. So he taught how they're other-dependent and also how everything's that way. But in particular, most important to Buddha was how suffering is other-dependent, arises dependently, and how the end of suffering arises. So in the early teaching, he teaches the middle by means of this teaching of dependent core arising.

[06:09]

And then in the later teachings, which are typified by the verses, the fundamental verses on the middle way, which I passed out to you in several translations, this is a later teaching. This teaching appears in written form approximately 600 years after Buddha. And what is felt to be the most important verse in this whole work on the Middle Way Verses, which has 24 chapters, and the 24th chapter The eighteenth verse is this one that I gave you, which talks about a relationship between dependent core arising, which is the basic way that Buddha teaches the middle way, and emptiness, and conventional designation.

[07:18]

So in this verse, it basically says that the way these three things are related, the way dependent core arising and emptiness and conventional designation are related, that relationship among those three is the middle way. This is a clarification of the early teaching. He doesn't just say dependent core rising is the middle way. In the early teaching, it looked like he was saying, I discovered the middle way. The middle way brings peace and calm and freedom and nirvana. I discovered the middle way by avoiding extremes. And what is the middle way? Dependent core rising. Now he says... pentacle arising, I declare it to be emptiness.

[08:24]

That being a conventional designation, that is the middle way. Later the Buddha teaches that, gives the teaching of emptiness to clarify what the pentacle arising is, how it actually is. And also, he mentions that is a conventional designation and that that, all that, is the middle way. So the relationship here is a relationship where emptiness is a clarification of dependent core arising and where dependent core arising is one of the main or the main way of understanding emptiness and where conventional designation is essential in order to understand this whole process.

[09:35]

And the fact that emptiness clarifies the middle way, or to clarify as dependent core arising, and dependent core arising helped us realize emptiness and that verbal designation is essential in understanding the process. All of that is the middle way. Not one of those things, not any one of those things is the middle way, the relationship among them. So wisdom wisdom can see the middle way, which means wisdom can see the relationship among these three, or wisdom sees the relationship among these three. These are three dimensions of truth. Not one of them all by itself is truth.

[10:38]

One of them is ultimate truth. Emptiness is ultimate truth. But that is not the middle way. The middle way is the relationship between emptiness, dependent core arising, and verbal designation. Because emptiness is not nothing. Emptiness is the clarification of how things happen. The way things happen is called dependent core arising. Emptiness clarifies that process by saying that that process is empty of any kind of imagination of how dependent core arising happens. And the imagination of how dependent core arising happens is the basis of conventional designation.

[11:39]

So we hear that all phenomena arise in dependence on something other than themselves. Whatever it is, x, it arises in depending on y. We hear that. We also hear that whatever it is does not, it lacks the power to produce itself. It is not produced by itself. That's how things happen. But whenever we think about such a process, we naturally have some image of how things happen. Thank you. And in fact, the way things happen is free of our conceptions about how they happen.

[12:48]

However, we wouldn't be able to understand that it was free of our conceptions about the way it happened if there were no conceptions about the way it happened. But there are conceptions about the way it happened. That's why we have to also study our conceptions of the way things happen in order to find out that the way they happen is empty of those conceptions. So that's why I said to you earlier is that to say that a thing, the identity of a thing, is nothing more than a verbal designation is the same as saying it's empty. A thing is empty of being anything more. Excuse me, the identity of a thing is empty of being anything more than a verbal designation. So you and I, as dependent core risings, are free of any kind of image which would be the basis of designating us.

[14:02]

We're free of that. However, our identity is not free of it. In order to have an identity, there has to be some imagination about what we are and a verbal designation. Then we have an identity. But our identity is nothing more than an imagination, a thought construction, which is the basis for a verbal designation. Nothing more than that. The verbal designation, there's something to that, but the basis of the verbal designation, there's nothing to that. That's not in the way we actually are. It's just a fantasy which makes a landing pad for a verbal designation so we can have an identity. And the relationship between that conventional designation and the way we actually happen is that with that verbal designation, the way we happen can have an identity, can be talked about.

[15:14]

But the way we actually are is empty. of the verbal designation. There's nothing about us that the verbal designation actually applies to. And we're also empty of the image by which we were able to apply the verbal designation to the way we are. So the profound aspect, the profound way that dependent co-arising is, is that it's empty in this way, but also that it is available to conventional designations in such a way that conventional designations can evoke an identity in a process that doesn't have an identity. And so we have a world appearing in this way out of that. So the way the Buddha originally taught dependent core arising was, I would say to you tonight, was a way which indicated basic, his basic religious practice, which we are encouraged to continue always, which is just to remember that this, to meditate on dependent core arising, which will help us

[16:31]

Be aware that impermanent things are impermanent. We sometimes lose track of the impermanence of impermanent things, and so then we treat impermanent things like they're permanent and have various problems because of that. Because we think impermanent things are permanent, we get excessively involved with them. either get too involved or not involved enough. But by meditating on this teaching we start to relate to phenomena more and more appropriately, more and more virtuously. It isn't exactly that we go from non-virtue to virtue, but we turn away from non-virtue, whatever amount there is, to more and more virtue because we develop more and more proper relationship with things because we're constantly remembering and the teaching that they are other-dependent.

[17:46]

However, this meditation does not yet address the profound aspect of dependent core rising. But it is the basis of becoming aware of the profound aspect of it. So far we're still seeing things in their superficial way. We can see things in their superficial way. In other words, their superficial way things are is some image of them. The somewhat deeper way that things are is that they're not the images of them. They are the dependently co-arisen nature of them. That's more deep and more basic. The dependently co-arisen nature of what's happening is the basis of our imagination about them. We can see what we imagine because images can be easily grasped and identified.

[18:52]

The way things are actually happening is inconceivable. So there's an inconceivable nature of things. The other dependent nature is the inconceivable nature upon which conceivable experience is based. So while still seeing conceivable things, people and trees, pain and pleasure, by seeing these things, or rather I say people and things, what I mean is seeing images of people and things, people and things, pain and pleasure. There really is pain and pleasure, people and things, but we can't grasp them in their other dependent nature. In their middle way we can't grasp, but we can grasp them in their conceptual way. by mediating our relationship with people and experiences with images, then we can grasp the images.

[19:56]

And we think we're grasping the person or the event, but we're not. We're grasping the image. So while still doing that, we listen to a teaching which says, although you're grasping, you're not grasping the thing, you're grasping your thinking about the thing. which, you know, please admit that's what you're doing. Or at least admit that you've heard the teaching that says that's what you're doing. And if you don't believe it, then admit you don't believe the teaching. But then also listen to the teaching which says the basis of this graspable, or this basis of this grasping life, is an ungraspable life. Your ungraspable life is under the graspable life, like I was saying last week about the road that covers the river, right? The river is always flowing, but you can't drive a truck on a river unless it's frozen.

[20:59]

So we freeze the river and pave it over, and then we can negotiate the river. However, you know, We yearn for the river because part of us, most of us, is really living in the river, swimming around there, you know, like it's alive. So here at Teaching Knowledge it says, there's a river underneath this graspable road and aren't you hungry for it? Doesn't that sound familiar? Yeah, you kind of know. And of course we have an idea of the river, but that's not the river. But anyway, we kind of sense it, we kind of long for it. And that river thing is that impermanent, flowing, other-dependent nature. You just keep listening to that and you gradually, gradually become more and more convinced that things really are existing that way. So by meditating on this basic teaching, you start more and more to be able to be convinced, although you can't see it yet, you become more and more convinced and you start more and more living by it or living in accord with it.

[22:22]

You start to withdraw from excessive involvement with impermanent things. Impermanent things means other dependent phenomena. Based on this practice, which again we have to always do this practice, we are ready then to start studying our fantasies, our imagination, and see how our imagination works and see how it's correct or incorrect. see where it's right and where it's not. Some conceptual awarenesses are correct, others aren't. And there's the main one that we're trying to overcome, the main false one, is that there's something in things that actually, you know, corresponds to this image we have of them as being, you know,

[23:32]

something about them actually that there's an essence of you know kit or an essence of rochelle in kit and rochelle which there isn't that's there's not a self of the person in the person that corresponds to this you know the word self of the person we have to like but we can find that that idea and we can and we can study it and we can convince ourselves it's not so And then we're ready to look at how the thing is empty of that identity. How that identity is nothing more than a word. The word actually isn't in the person. And again, everybody knows that the word Rochelle isn't Rochelle. And Rochelle isn't the word Rochelle. That's not what we're going to get over with. We're going to get over the idea that there's something in this person over here who we call Rochelle that corresponds to Rochelle.

[24:34]

And we actually do think that there is, most of us, especially her. You can identify that, get used to that, own up to that, get familiar with that, and then based on this other practice, be ready to refute that and get over that. In other words, stop agreeing to it. It isn't that we don't still have that feeling that there's something in here, that there's actually a little red inside of red. It isn't that you get over that feeling or that idea. It's you just stop agreeing with it. You stop believing it. You stop saying, yes, there really is. Okay. So I just want to also mention that I heard this, actually, again, when you're studying something like this, this teaching of dependent core rising, it's something that you would apply to everything because it is, you know, basically...

[25:43]

it's about everything, all your experiences. So you would apply it to everything, but then also you start to feel like everything's... almost like then everything's telling you about... as you start to do that more, then you also see the teaching everywhere. So as you apply the teaching to everything, after a while you start seeing the teaching everywhere. It starts coming back to you. So I was listening to this Carol King song, which I really didn't know very well before, but I just... heard it, it's called, I think the name of the song is Only Love Is Real. And so there's a line where it says, only love is real, everything else is illusion. And I thought, yeah, that's almost right. So did you know how I would say it?

[26:45]

Pardon? No, not quite. It's warm, though. Only love is real. I'll give you a hint. Everything else is illusion. That's the part that I disagree with. And also the only. Yes? That's what Carmen said. What I thought was... the not so nice way to say it is, is, see, only love is real. I would say just love is real and everything else is illusion except the absence of illusion in love. So love is basically real. Love is, love is, dependent core rising is love. Love is actually the way everything makes you and you don't make yourself.

[27:51]

That's basically love. And it's the way everybody loves you and the way you love everybody. That's basically love. It has nothing to do with, you know, judging people. It has nothing to do, I shouldn't say it has nothing to do with it, but there's nothing about judging people in there. You support people no matter what you think of them, and what you think of them supports them too, no matter what it is. But you said everything else is illusion, but one thing that's not an illusion is the absence of illusion in love. So all the illusions we have about love are not love. So only love is real is not quite right. Basically, what's real is love. Basically, love is reality. Love is the basic reality. Dependent co-arising is the basic reality, the fundamental reality.

[28:52]

And everything except emptiness is an illusion. Everything else is an illusion. All the ideas we have about it, which make it come into having an identity in the world, Those things are illusions. I mean, they're just fantasies. But there's one thing that's not, in addition to love or in addition to dependent core arising, that's not just a fantasy, and that is the fact that the fantasies are not in the love. So there is one exception to her, her everything else is illusion. Does that make sense? But it's close. I thought she was close, close enough to get my attention when she said that illusion thing. Everything's illusion. I said, hmm, that sounds good, but not everything is illusion.

[29:57]

The pentacle arising is not an illusion. Now, when I talk about it, in order to talk about it, I have to put a little illusion over it so I can put the word dependent core arising on it. But the dependent core arising that I'm putting the word on is not an illusion. That's why you can't see it. That's why you can't actually see beauty. You can see people and you can see their beauty, but you can't see the beauty as anything in addition to the people. You can sense, you can intuit it's a person's beauty. But as soon as you put any kind of way to identify it, to get it to exist for you, that's not the beauty. That's not the other dependent character. Other dependent character is not an illusion. It is pre-illusion. It's before the illusions are applied. That's why it's inconceivable.

[31:03]

But that's how it's inclusive. That was the notion of designation that you... that the... are... Yes. Yes. Yes. And that too is part of the middle path. So... It is, yeah. It is part of the middle path because number... there's... in some sense there's two kinds of middle path. One kind of middle path is the actual relationship between the way things happen... And part of the way things happen is that things can, through imagination and through verbal designations, things can come to exist with an identity. So the unidentified Jim, who arises and ceases, who is not actually called Jim, but the unidentified, inconceivable, ungraspable life that you are,

[32:19]

you know, in person that you are, with a body and everything, that person, unidentified, is your other dependent nature, which is always with you. But part of the reality of our life is that we have actually conventionally existing, identified Jim, too. That requires conventional designation. And your identity is nothing more than a conventional designation. Take away the world, Jim, and we do not have an identified person over there. That's what it's saying. So part of the middle way is to explain how things appear in a world, how things appear as identified entities. And the way they appear is by illusory codings and then a designation on top of them. So it explains how things appear with identities, but it also is saying that verbal designation is necessary in order to give the teaching about the middle way too.

[33:29]

So the middle way is the relationship between our unidentified radiant interdependence by which we come to exist, the relationship between that imagination and designation, and our freedom from our imagination and designation. Those three things, how they work, that's the middle way. That's the way things are actually going on. But then there's also to teach the middle way, in order to teach the middle way, the Buddha had to make conventional designations. So conventional designation is there's a teaching of the middle way, and there's the actual middle way. And the actual middle way is this relationship between the way things happen, the way they're manifested with identities and made to appear in a graspable form, and the way they're always free of our imagination. That's the actual middle way, and then there's a teaching of it.

[34:29]

So the teaching requires conventional designation and also It's a teaching about how conventional designation works with things that basically are beyond conventional designation. But conventional designation can kind of fish into causality and pull out identities. But the actual process of causation, Buddhism as a teacher teaches causation, but the causation, none of our stories about the causation are actually in the causation. So when the Buddha first taught, depending on this, that arises. Depending on that, the next thing arises. Depending on the next thing, the next thing arises. He taught that. When he first taught it, people might have thought that the way that he said that and the way they think about that, that's actually the way that things happen. And he let them go with that for a while. For hundreds of years it was allowed to just think of it that way. But to equate that process with emptiness says that all these stories about how the causation happens aren't actually in the causation.

[35:38]

Any categories or images you put into the causal process don't hold up. Everything is caused, but there's no identifiable things in the causal process. That's the deeper aspect of the causation. So Buddhism is a causation-centered teaching which is dedicated to help people become free of suffering, but it's not the worldly idea of causation. It's not the usual idea of causation. I'm not sure exactly where different branches of science fall in relationship to how close they are or how far they are from Buddhist causation. Most sciences are causally oriented like Buddhism and in that way Buddhism is very close to science.

[36:40]

But in some ways Buddhism has this more poetic dimension too. of bringing an awareness of how we must set the processes of nature free of imagination, which I also mentioned to you earlier that the early idea of the Romantics, like I think they often use Wordsworth as an example, was the way that the Romantic poetry could work to facilitate Liberation was to bring the imagination and nature into unity. But later romantics thought that the way to achieve salvation was to free the imagination of nature. I mentioned this before, right?

[37:45]

But the Buddhist way is not to free imagination from nature more, but to free nature from the imagination, or to realize, to see that nature is free of imagination. You don't have to free it. It's already free. In other words, imagination doesn't reach nature. the way things happen actually is free of imagination. We only need imagination in order to talk about nature. And being human beings, we must talk about nature. It's part of our human thing, is that we have to talk about nature. But then the words come to us to tell us how to free ourselves nature of the imagination we use as a vehicle to talk about nature. Rana?

[38:56]

I remember last time you asked for the feedback for the next 30, Yeah. When I thought about a lot, at the same time, I thought a lot about emptiness. Mm-hmm. And I found out that I really don't understand this concept. And I just thought, well, maybe I'm not smart enough. And I really thought... Maybe you're not smart enough? To understand this concept. And then I have another thought that maybe if I understand it, then I can grasp it. So by itself, the meaning of emptiness is not as much as I understood. If I understand it, then it's graspable, then it's not emptiness. So it's not, then I convince myself that it's okay, I don't understand it, I get it wrong.

[40:00]

I thought in my own life and experience very important is when I realize my heart is open and when my heart is closed. And I would like to hear more teaching how I can keep my heart open. Or what should I do? What tools should I use when my heart is closed? So basically, that's what I'd like to say more. Well, thank you for saying that because I also want to again stress that this type of meditation, this teaching which is trying to encourage a meditation where we actually come to be able to see the middle way, to see the relationship our true relationship with things, that that meditation is based on compassion practices.

[41:12]

So we haven't talked about compassion practices much in this class other than me telling you that the basis of this meditation practice is compassion practice. However, Another thing to say is that this meditation practice, this wisdom meditation, is in order to purify the compassion which is the basis of this wisdom. So this wisdom is based on compassion, but the compassion it's based on is the compassion of our not completely developed wisdom. And the completely developed wisdom then will purify our compassion of, for example, our extreme views. You can have compassion and still have extreme views. Like you can really care about somebody. I mean like easily be ready to give your life for them. Let's say you could easily be ready to give your life for someone.

[42:17]

I'm not saying it's easy to be able to give your life for somebody. Let's say you feel perfectly fine about giving your life for someone, you care about them that much. This is certainly compassion. it might be only under certain circumstances where you do it. For example, if they change their makeup, you might say, now forget it. Or if they start looking like somebody else. So you think, well, this is a different person. I'll give my life to this person, but not that person. So you can feel great compassion for somebody and then they change a little bit and you call it off. This is called a little problem, a little kind of impurity in your compassion. But with wisdom, you could be willing to give your life for someone and they could change into quite a different person, which they will, and you could still be willing to give your life for that person.

[43:24]

Plus also you'd be able to see if it would be helpful to do that or not. Because you could see the actual way the person really is. So compassion practices are definitely part of this, which have to be done in parallel. And in particular, when you notice that your heart is closed to anything... then it's good to be compassionate with that closed heart. It's not, I don't think it's, generally speaking, I don't think it's very compassionate to like be, beat yourself up for having a closed heart. I think sort of like if you have a closed heart, you say, you know, I have a closed heart today, you know. And be gentle with yourself about having a closed heart. And if you're gentle with yourself about having a closed heart, the heart might relax and open.

[44:27]

And if your heart's open, be gentle with yourself about that, and maybe it can close. And then open, and close, and open. Maybe it can just really be what it is. And then it being what it is, sometimes open, sometimes closed, that's an opportunity for your compassion to grow. on a closed or an open heart. A compassion can grow on a closed heart or an open heart. It can grow on anything. So, yes, we have to keep working on compassion, which, and part of compassion is to confess when you don't feel very compassionate. But not confess and punch yourself. Confess and say, yeah, I have some limits here. And then your compassion grows a little bit by accepting the limits of your compassion. Fighting the limits of your compassion, of course, tends to inhibit the growth of your compassion. Being impatient with your compassion is not compassionate.

[45:36]

Being patient with your compassion is compassionate. Patience is a compassion practice. So keep working on that. But speaking of surveys, I was thinking of some different possibilities for the summer. One direction to go would be more towards studying the nature of mind and how it works and the different kinds of... different ways we know things and different types of cognition and also to learn how to tell, you know, correct from incorrect types of perceptions and so on. That's one direction, more of a psychological. Another direction I was thinking to go was more towards in terms of this, a bit more related to what you were saying about consider the bodhisattva vow, the bodhisattva spirit and how that can be developed.

[46:37]

and encouraged the spirit of compassion. So I wondered, you know, one's more in the direction of the basis of compassion and compassion orientation, the other would be more like a continual study of the nature of mind. I wondered, I suppose you're all interested in both, but any preferences for the compassion study way? A little bit more for the compassion, wasn't there? Of course, they're not separated, but, you know, it's a matter of emphasis. Okay. Yes, Vera? Yeah, I was thinking they're not separated, but, you know, since a lot of these concepts are really difficult, but they were for me. Yeah. Everyone said, well, I see a light bulb. What's going on?

[47:40]

What about continuing? Continuing? The Middle Way study, you mean? But maybe bringing in some of those other things into the Middle Way study. I don't think that the middle way will be sort of like not mentioned. It'll probably come up some, but it wouldn't necessarily come up as much as in this class. But I guess the middle way meditations are more on the side of wisdom practices. than on... they're based on compassion practices, but they're more emphasizing... middle way is more like finding a balanced view. So it's more having to do with view rather than conduct.

[48:47]

Compassion is more related to conduct. But of course the idea is that if the view is purified, then the conduct is transformed. But it's more emphasizing understanding your relationship with things such that once you understand better, you naturally respond better rather than necessarily other ways. Even while we still don't understand, let's try to relate better. Even while still we sort of believe what we see, let's not act on that basis. Let's do the right thing even though this person doesn't look like they deserve the right thing. They deserve the wrong thing. Which, again, I think I mentioned this in the class before, is that because what anybody you meet is not just what you think they are. What they are has something to do with what you think they are because what you think they are is based on what they are. Whoever you're looking at, the basis of your fantasies about them is the actual person.

[49:55]

There is a relationship there. However, they are far beyond this little pint-sized idea you have about them. Anybody that you meet could be a great bodhisattva. So really, part of the meditation on dependent core rising is to be mindful that anybody you meet could be a great bodhisattva. And therefore, we should treat everybody with that understanding. Donald Rob Stone? Yep. Yep. You name it. That's another one. Yes, Beth. I'm still really unable to process what you've been teaching. And when you send your wisdom meditation on its topic,

[50:57]

I don't know how. I don't know how thinking harder about this is going to make it any clearer. And I know that's not the same thing. But there are little bits of wisdom that, if I look for a second, I'll get what you're talking about. And then I won't get it all. And I'm wondering, in practice, how I would take whatever... The basic practice... And move on. The basic practice, which you would do now, And in the future, even if you started to work on these more difficult aspects and meditating on these more difficult, profound teachings, you still would do this basic meditation, which is that whatever you're experiencing, whether you're seeing something, hearing something, thinking something, feeling something, looking at a person, looking at yourself, looking at yourself in the mirror, looking at somebody else, whatever you're looking at, you listen to the teaching which says that this phenomenon does not arise by itself, it's not produced by itself, and it arises in dependence on things other than itself.

[52:09]

You listen to that teaching and you get that teaching, you know, such that even you can feel it, you can feel the teaching without even saying the whole thing, but you have to sort of like have the full content. You have to have the positive and negative side of it, I think, well in your sort of being, so that when you look at people, you kind of feel that teaching when you look at people. So the positive side is, if I look at you, I remember that you are coming to be, your existence is dependent on things other than yourself. And you do not have an essence that produces you. When I look at you, I remember that teaching. And the more I listen, the more I'm mindful of that teaching, also the more I will realize that nothing against you, but that means that I will understand that you are impermanent.

[53:12]

And I will understand that you're not reliable. I can't have confidence in you. Nothing against you, but you have this nature that you're not reliable, you're not stable. You're not in your own control. And when you listen to the teaching and you start to understand that that's the way everybody you know is, you start relating to them differently. You're not going to try to control someone who is unstable and not worthy of confidence and impermanent. We try to control things that we think are permanent. We want to keep them on this track which we imagine them to be on, a permanence and controllableness and reliability if we would only like get them to be this way or that way. So your behavior will start to change as you listen to this teaching.

[54:16]

And it says again, it says listen to this teaching, you can't yet see this What you see is things look like they're stable, reliable, and in our culture, actually, it's kind of considered an insult to say to somebody that they're unreliable. But in the realm of religious practice, it's okay for you to quietly consider that people are not reliable. And there's nothing against them. It's their nature. because they're interdependent. If people are interdependent, you can't rely on the person because when other people change, they change. Just like, you know, you can make up stories if that makes sense. You rely on this person, but when their kids are sick, they can't come to work. Or maybe you rely on this person to take care of their kids, when they're sick, but then they don't take care of their kids because they don't want to go to work.

[55:18]

So, you know, depending on conditions, people are... Because people depend on conditions, they're not reliable. There's no core there that's reliable. However, the point is not that you rely on people or plants or rocks, but that you have good relationships with them. And again, I use my grandson as example. I do not consider him to be reliable. He's not stable. I do not have confidence in him. But I do want to have a really good relationship with him. I love him so much. And I want him to have a really good grandfather who, like, really relates to him in a good way Not in sort of like, okay, get this kid to like me. Get this kid to be happy. Get this kid to be this. He does not go with any program like that.

[56:22]

With his mother, you know, she doesn't care about love. She just wants to get him under control. Because she, you know, she has to live with him, right? So you say, yeah, this is really nice, except you have to live with the person. Then you've got to get them under control. So forget about love. Forget about appropriate relationships. Just survive with this guy who's constantly... He's constantly talking. You know, get this, get out of here, you know. And then she gets a break and says, can I have him back now, you know. She does love him, but she doesn't really sometimes want to be around him anymore because he's too much, you know. He's too much. You can't control him. You can't like turn the volume down, make more space between the words.

[57:29]

This teaching really helps. It really helps. It doesn't mean you don't love people. It means this helps you have a good relationship with them. But you have to be mindful of it. You have to remember it. You have to know it well enough so you don't have to go find a book again to read it. So you hear this teaching, you hear it. In other words, you're remembering it. And after a while, it's like, I gave you some short versions of it, like mystery. Everybody you look at, you say mystery. That's code for this person is far beyond my image of them. I do have an image of them. They're very pretty. They're very obnoxious. I have these images. But obnoxious or pretty is just the surface. You know, beauty is only skin deep. Ugliness is only skin deep, too. But really, beauty is not skin deep.

[58:34]

Beauty is really, the real beauty is this mysterious, ungraspable thing beyond the skin. But there is skin there and it's very penetrating sometimes and very difficult to be with the skin. But this teaching will help alleviate the stress of the skin, of the voice, of the surface, which is what you think the person, the surface of the person is what you think they are. So your thinking will continue, create this superficial impression of who people are, and this practice, this meditation will continuously, when you remember it, will remind you that people are not just what you think they are. They are partly what you think you are, but mostly, basically, they're before your thoughts about them. And everybody's pretty much on the same ground there because everybody is totally interdependent and dependent on others.

[59:42]

So in that way you start relating to everybody the same. And I don't know if this is really true, but a lot of Suzuki Roshi's disciples felt like, you know, he really did treat pretty much everybody the same. That's what a lot of his students felt. I don't know if that's true, but a lot of people felt like not just that he saw them, but they saw that he seemed to treat everybody else. He seemed to respect everybody. Anyway, I don't know if he was that way completely, but he was that way at least a little, and you can be like that a little. to find the way that everybody is basically the same. The way that everybody is the same is everybody has this other-dependent character every moment. Nobody doesn't ever skip a beat of being other-dependent.

[60:47]

Just sort of occasionally say, okay, forget that now. I'm in control for a second here. No, there's no break. But people look like they're permanent and that they make themselves and you think that they're a certain way. That's going on too. And that's going to continue to go on for quite a while. The meditation will take a very long time before that will stop. But what can stop is you can more and more stop believing the appearance, even while it's still there. But even before you stop believing, you can start loosening your belief and juxtaposing this teaching to the belief. And you'll start, even before you stop, you can soften it. So that's the basic meditation, which I hope you go away from this series of classes with that meditation. And if you can do it a little bit, great.

[61:51]

If you can do it more, better, I would say. Better for you, better for your relationships. Better relationships. Does that make sense? And the other aspects are the more profound aspects, but they're based on this one. Without this base, you shouldn't get into the profound aspects. Also in this Fundamental Verses on the Middle Way, Nagarjuna says, without being grounded in the conventional truth, the ultimate should not be taught. In other words, without being grounded in the conventional truth of the way things appear and the conventional truth that things are dependently co-arisen, you shouldn't really be meditating on emptiness yet. I've told you about that, but I'm actually telling you, do not meditate on emptiness before you're based in this practice. That wouldn't be appropriate.

[62:53]

But I did bring up these verses on emptiness to let you know that this basic meditation that I was just talking to Beth about, that's not the whole course. But it's the basic meditation which you do not stop, ever. Because emptiness is in relationship to this basic meditation. That's the foundation. So for most of us, we should just work on this basic meditation and then gradually start to get ready for the more profound teachings. But don't give up the basic one. Does that make sense? Anything else you want to bring up this evening? Bob? I've been kind of thinking about this stuff. Yeah, it's like a triangle. Or it's actually, another way I used to visualize it is it's like a tetrahedron.

[64:00]

So you can see the basis of the tetrahedron is those three. But then the peak of the tetrahedron is the middle way. Does that make sense? Well, I was thinking about the size of it. The sides? Talk about the relationship. If it's on a plane, you mean? Yeah, on a plane. You can see it on a plane. Well, and then you could put between... No, I don't think it works that way. If you have a... If you had a, like a... I guess it would be an equilateral triangle. I think a tetrahedron is four equilateral triangles, isn't it? One, two, three, four. It's a four side. A tetrahedron... Huh? Huh? Tetra means four, right? Huh? Yeah. A tetrahedron is a four-sided... A tetrahedron is the most stable three-dimensional solid.

[65:05]

It is also the shape of the body sitting cross-legged. You know? This is a triangle here. There's a triangle here. Triangle here. triangle here, and the center triangle is like here, your stomach. So I don't think that if you have emptiness, dependent core arising, conventional designation, I wouldn't put the middle way between any of those two because if you put it between emptiness and dependent core arising, Over here, between there, you would be leaving out the conventional designation. If you put it between the conventional designation and dependent core arising, over here, you'd be leaving out the emptiness. That's why I think it has to be elevated up so it relates to all three simultaneously, the middle way. The middle way is the relationship between the three.

[66:06]

But you could also tip the tetrahedron up this way and have a plane where there's middle way dependent core arising and conventional designation. And then up here you'd have emptiness. Or you could flip it and put dependent core arising and down here you'd have middle way dependent core arising and conventional designation. So you could flip it any way. But I wouldn't put it between, because if you have it in a line between any of them, then none of the pairs account for the middle way. So the middle way is sort of like an emergent thing from this relationship. The middle way is more like our life when we understand this relationship. The Dependicle of Rising is really basically our life, except without understanding its relationship to emptiness and conventional designation, our life is a life of suffering.

[67:12]

So the two-dimensional dependent core arising that doesn't have this relationship understood, our life does not realize its fullness. But, you know, that's just my idea. You might be right about where to put the middle way thing. But that's the way I've thought of it over the years, is to have it. And then the other piece of that I wanted to ask about, two of the three you've mentioned are not impermanent, but they're permanent. In a sense, that's right. Well, actually, in a sense, actually, all three of those are permanent. Because fantasy is kind of permanent. Because fantasy, you know, is not really, you know, bye Rana.

[68:14]

Like for example, particularly the fantasy of a self or something in the thing which the conventional designation corresponds to, that thing doesn't actually happen. The self of a person doesn't like arise and cease. It's just an imaginary thing. So it's kind of permanent too. And dependent co-arising is kind of permanent. Things that arise interdependently are not permanent. But the process of inter... the process of dependent co-arising, the way things are, is kind of permanent, because they're always that way. And the fact that the way we are is innocent of our fantasies about the way we are, that innocence, which is our emptiness of that, that's also permanent. So those things are actually kind of all permanent in a way, those principles. But understanding them is a dependently co-arisen phenomena.

[69:17]

It's our life. It's a life of understanding. It's a life of freedom. That's not permanent. Our freedom, our happiness, our compassion, our wisdom, these are things which arise interdependently. Those aren't permanent. What we want to realize is an impermanent understanding of impermanence and permanence. Anything else you want to bring up? Yes. Olivia? I wanted to see, I'm sure that you've taught techniques on meditation and that's maybe for another time, but I know that we spend a very short time at the beginning of class meditating and I think that there's maybe more I could learn about the techniques of meditating.

[70:25]

Because I think that the time we spend talking or employing all the conventional designations, but I think that there's such a unique opportunity when you're meditating to let go of that. I mean, it's harder to let, I don't think you can let go of it as I'm sitting here talking to you or as I'm listening to you. there must be a great deal to learn about. There is a great deal to be learned about meditating. And I think I mentioned it in the beginning of class, but I know that although I mention things, you do not hear everything I mention and remember everything I say. I understand that. But I think I did mention that there's two types of meditation that we can talk about. One type is where you give up discursive thought, and that is called calming meditation.

[71:30]

And the other type is where you use discursive thought in order to develop wisdom. And this class has been a meditation class, but it's been the wisdom variety during our discussions. What you have been doing, what you were doing during the quiet time, some of you were doing, at least one of you was doing insight or wisdom meditation during the quiet time. So there was basically three camps here during the quiet time. One group was giving up discursive thought, and experiencing calm while they were sitting, developing calm. Another group were using discursive thought to agitate themselves and upset themselves. They weren't giving it up. They were using it, you know, to rile themselves up. Like they were thinking, our themselves should be, you know, blah, blah, you know, whatever.

[72:34]

Not you, but somebody else. And some other people were using discursive thought by saying, what I'm experiencing right here, the bodily experiences and the sounds of the music and so on, have this other dependent character. They're not produced by themselves. They come to exist independent of other things. That's a meditation too, but it's discursive. So the quiet meditation time could be used for the wisdom meditation or the calming meditation. Either one. And there are unlimited numbers of ways to try to encourage ourselves or give ourselves a hint about how to let go of discursive thought. And one can let go of discursive thought.

[73:36]

Discursive thought can be released. Matter of fact, most of you probably have some period of time where you do release it. There are times in your life when you do release it. When you're dancing sometimes, you let go of it. When you're playing music, you let go of it. When you're doing yoga poses, you let go of it sometimes. You use your discursive thought in order to do a certain activity, and then when you're doing that activity, your discursive thought is let go of. And sometimes because it's engaged completely in the thing, you let go of it. It's not that it's not happening. it's that you let go of it. So you can be sitting there thinking, Donald Rumsfeld is, you know, not worthy of my compassion. That thought can run through your mind, but you can just like, it can just be like the sound of a bird in the tree. It's like you don't identify with it, just like... He just, you know, let go of it.

[74:42]

And here comes the thing, Donald Rumsfeld does deserve my compassion. down wrong so blah blah blah just take just no don't get involved and when you do when you train your attention to not get involved in the stuff that's flying through your head although this stuff's flying through your head the presence there is not moving with this stuff so Olivia is a jerk mm-hmm Olivia is a queen mm-hmm Olivia is a great meditator mm-hmm mm-hmm whatever it is, you really, you know, you don't get involved. This is a calming type. The insight type is, Olivia's a jerk, that thought arises, you go, this has another kind of character. The surface is, Olivia's a jerk, you know, I think so and I believe it or I don't, but this is based on something which is not produced by itself.

[75:51]

arises and depends on other things. So then you start to see this thing differently. In the first case, you start to relax with it and become calm with it, with it and everything. Suddenly, when you start to look at things with the aid of the teaching, you start to see them differently. Little by little, your relationship changes in terms of how you understand them. In the other case, your relationship changes in the sense that you don't get involved. In this case, you're not going to penetrate. They're both meditations. And we can all get better at both styles. We can all get better at letting go of discursive thought and develop more composure and more stability and more relaxation and more buoyancy and so on to that mode that is an important mode of meditation. So actually one person came to one of these classes and she came in the room late and she said, I saw all these people with their hands in these circles down by their stomachs And I just became terrified, so I just laid down. She came in, she was just scared of all you quiet people.

[76:56]

So she just laid down in the corner, and then she dropped out of the class. Because it's just like, she feels like, you know, she thought it was very interesting what we were talking about, but she just wanted to come and be quiet. And I said, well, I do sometimes teach classes like that. And she said, well, please let me know when you do. That's the kind of meditation I want. She just really wants you to just learn composing meditation. So I'd be happy to teach, you know, the tranquility meditations. I have had some courses here like that. We also work on other forms of compassion. Tranquility meditation is a dimension of compassion. So the basic compassion practices are giving, precepts, patience, enthusiasm, and tranquility, or meditation, concentration practices. Those are the basic dimensions of compassion practice. So we could have a class on each one of those. That'd be fine with me. And then there's the wisdom practices. So I'm sure you're all interested in all of them. So it's kind of like, you know, what should we do?

[77:58]

So I'll wait for a revelation as to the most appropriate response. And you can send me little messages if you want to help me. When's the class starting? Here at the yoga room there's going to be a class. It's in July and August. I think on Tuesday nights. July and August. How many classes? Seven? Okay. Okay. There's no linear way, but you don't have to do it that way and most people can't do it linearly because your life keeps like coming in there and flipping you around That's it's it's often presented in a linear way because easier to ingest it that way just like if you look up at the stars, you know, I look at the stars and how they move, most people do not get it. Some of the stars are often translated in terms of constellations and stuff like that.

[79:09]

But telling stories and narratives sometimes make things simpler for people to understand, even though what they're telling a story about is extremely not narrative. So anyway, thank you very much for your enthusiastic participation. And remember, treat everybody as though they might be a great bodhisattva.

[79:40]

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