Last week, I brought up the first teaching of the Buddha, the teaching which the Buddhist tradition says is the first teaching. And in that first teaching, he right away introduces the notion that there's two extremes that ought not to be practiced. In other words, yes, extremes that ought not to be practiced. And one extreme is the extreme of devotion to indulgence in sense pleasure, and the other is devotion to self-mortification.

[01:13]

And he actually, in his history, his prior life before realizing the Middle Way, he actually practiced those two extremes. When he lived in his father's house, he practiced the extreme of devotion to indulgence in sense pleasure. And then when he left his father's house, he practiced devotion to self-mortification. So his story is basically split into those two parts. He tried those tricks, he practiced those two extremes, and then he found the middle. And when he found the middle, he found peace. And in a sense, while we were sitting, I was contemplating that

[02:26]

we were sitting and our bodies, perhaps, in the sitting posture, our bodies were experimenting with what's the middle way for this body to be during this period of sitting together. And the first way of introducing the middle path seems relatively more physical than the later ways that he introduced the middle path. Because this indulgence and sense pleasure is to a great extent physical. Although you could indulge and sense pleasure by reading something or It could be a mental sense pleasure that you'd be indulging in.

[03:29]

Some people read novels that way. Or poetry. Strictly speaking, it's not so much the... But I guess you're not actually seeing the pictures in the novel. You're more thinking of them. But basically, it seems like a physical thing is a primary thing. And then also self-mortification you can do mentally. You can criticize yourself and things like that mentally as a way, as a path. Voluntarily or involuntarily assumed, but it's mostly physical. So I just I was just thinking about whether your body's found the middle way while you were sitting.

[04:32]

Or were you devoted to indulgence in sense pleasure or were you devoted to self-mortification just a little bit while you were sitting? Sitting in meditation With the intention to develop calm, one does not really consider this issue of whether you're finding the middle way. You're actually giving up discursive thought and just relaxing. But it's possible to also sit and be relaxed. But then actually consider whether you're sitting in a middle way, whether you're sitting in a middle way or whether your sitting is in a middle way, or what is the middle way of your being there in your meditation. And similarly right now, are you avoiding those two extremes right now physically?

[05:40]

Or do you feel like you're, can you sense perhaps that you're off balance in one way or another? In terms of gravity, but also in terms of like, are you leaning towards one of these extremes? Can you identify that at all? If I'm sitting, like I'm sitting right now, and if I sit in a certain posture, it might be uncomfortable. And if I adjust the posture, I might feel more comfortable. And it might be actually a more appropriate way to sit. But I also could be adjusting the posture

[06:57]

in an ongoing devotion to trying to find a more comfortable posture, to find a more pleasant way, a more pleasureful way to hold my body. And I think I mentioned last week also that these devotions to these extremes are ways of distracting ourselves from our present experience. So you could adjust your posture, but not with the intention of distracting yourself from your present experience, but just sitting in a way that you feel is more appropriate. Do you have any comments about whether you sense that you're sitting in a middle way now?

[08:16]

Or whether you sense some leaning towards one of those extremes? Yes? How would I classify you having a fantasy while you're sitting? Or even having a fantasy right now? I guess what I would emphasize in this context is that are you fantasizing with the intention or in the lineage or in the club of devotion to sense pleasure?

[09:17]

Like some people in some of our sitting, when we have long sittings at Zen Center, Some people get bored and they intentionally start thinking of certain topics to entertain themselves. In that case, they're pretty aware that they're just doing that to entertain themselves. Or some people are uncomfortable and then they think of certain topics in order to get away from the pain. Then it may not be, well, it may not be this particular type of imbalance. It might be more related to the next type of middle way that I would speak of because in some sense you might be able to accomplish the first kind of middle way but not the next one.

[10:27]

But still, it might be even though it's quite habitual and you cannot identify that your mind is going off in certain directions to mortify yourself or to please yourself, even if you can't see that you have that motivation. It might be that if you considered it a little bit more, you might see that there was a motivation to do that. So I think now we have this new fad. Maybe I shouldn't say fad, but new epidemic. I mean, it's not quite an epidemic, but among young people, they do this ritual cutting. And... a lot some of them report that they although it hurts to cut a little bit they get some relief from their anxiety by doing that because at least they at least they keep they have some sense of control you know so it's this kind of self mortification but it takes them away from their extreme anxiety so they they kind of were trying to

[12:11]

use the mortification not necessarily to get pleasure, but to get some relief from their life situation. So it may be that some lines of thinking are used just habitually to take you away from being with what's happening. And you might be able to identify that it's through pain or through pleasure devotion, devotion to pain or devotion to pleasure that you find a way to get yourself away from what may be more difficult than pain or pleasure. For example, fear and anxiety are maybe more difficult than pain and pleasure for us to face. Or another thing would be difficult for us to face would be, guess what?

[13:17]

What might be really difficult to face? Well, then they die. Pardon? Well, then they die. Death might be difficult, yeah. But something kind of more ironic in terms of this class, it's kind of a hint. Noise. Huh? Noise. Noise? Enlightenment is getting close. Well, being alive, but being alive in a middle way. I think the middle way actually might be very difficult for us to face because we're unfamiliar with it. If you're indulging in self-mortification, it's painful, but at least you're like a human being. You're a good old suffering person. And again, you can have a lot of feelings about your self-mortification.

[14:24]

And similarly, if you're seeking and being somewhat successful at indulging in sense pleasure, You can have a lot of feelings about that and be kind of like a normal person, one of the group, right? But when you're facing the middle, you're not doing that stuff, and it's kind of like, are you still a human? Or have you been taken over by the body snatchers? Because a lot of your feelings, like greed, hate, and delusion, wouldn't be there in that case. So the funny thing is, I think that maybe the scariest thing for us to face is the middle way. in a way, because death's possible there, too. What would happen to you? I mean, where did you go? The usual person, what happened in this middle way? It's facing kind of unknown, too. It's facing the unknown and unpredictable, which includes death, quality of our life.

[15:31]

When you're in the middle, you feel like you've escaped? Yeah, isn't that interesting? Again, it's kind of ironic or paradoxical that when you're escaping, you don't feel like you're escaping because you've got pain or pleasure. So how could I be escaping? Right? But if you give them up, you feel like you've escaped from your habits, which you know that when you're in those, you know you haven't really escaped, but actually you've been trying to escape. But when you're in the middle, you feel guilty? I have guilt about the escape. Yeah. What do you call it? Survivor's guilt? Is that what they call it? Is that what it's called?

[16:35]

Yeah, you feel like... Again, you might feel kind of cold, like I've left all those people who are in the... I've left the extremists, you know. They're out there, you know, banging themselves and hitting themselves or, you know, like indulging themselves. And, of course, they're miserable, but... You know, maybe I've abandoned them by coming into this middle place where everything's kind of like a little bit cool in the middle of the flames. So that, you know, you can feel a little bit inhuman. And in a way, in a way you're kind of inhuman because you're giving up some of the things that are so typically human in that process. So I think people, that's another reason why it's kind of hard to face what it's like to be in the middle. And you know, when Shakyamuni Buddha was sitting under the bow tree and intending to, he didn't have the word middle way yet, but he was intending to, he wanted to attain the way of freedom.

[17:50]

He was assailed by the demons of his own mind, the demons of the world which tried to actually throw him off by getting him involved in war or getting him involved in sensual pleasure. And he didn't go for either one of those. But then finally the demon came to you and said, who do you think you are to sit here and attain the way? kind of like, you know, what's so special about you that you could be like, sit here and be enlightened? And that's a good criticism. And that's sort of the next part of the middle way bears on that, in that if you're sitting there and in this middle place, in terms of these extremes, and you're like there, and you're doing the practice, then in some sense,

[18:52]

you haven't got the second kind of middle. Namely, the middle way that you exist, middle way that you are. So anyway, that got him. And so he touched the earth to ask the earth to witness that he wasn't just sitting there by his own power, you know, that he wasn't there like all by himself, existing all by himself, doing this great feat of attaining the way. He kind of said, I don't mean to do this by myself. So he touched the earth and asked the earth to witness that the earth was, that he was acting on behalf of the earth, that the earth was acting through him to realize enlightenment. And the earth testified And they say it shook six ways and a great voice, like a thousand voices, came up saying, yes, you can sit. You don't have to move until you attain the way. So sometimes if you feel like you're sitting just in a selfish way, just take your right hand and touch your fingertips to the ground and ask the earth if it supports you to continue the practice.

[20:06]

Just like Buddha did. Because Buddha wasn't sure. He said, just check it out. Just touch the earth. May I continue to sit here in this cool, balanced place for the welfare of all beings. Do you support me to do that? It's a good practice. Is it? Yes, Phil? You asked us what our experience was while meditating with the middle way, and I'm not so sure what I think about it, and it seems that the middle is always a relative position. We can see almost anything is extreme, maybe even perhaps meditation. I'm wondering while you're meditating what signs you see or what feelings you experience that inform you that you are, or have attained the middle way.

[21:20]

Well, So the last part of his question was, are there some signs that would indicate that you've attained the middle way? Is that what you said? I guess in a non-conceptual way is what I'm thinking, because the middle way seems to try to judge it. So I'm wondering, what do you experience in the meditation that informs you that you've attained the middle way? Let me say, first of all, before I address your question directly, just to say that I was first kind of checking if you could sense any imbalance. It's easy to tell when you're off balance. So I was asking you, can you identify any extremes in your sitting of indulgence in either of those extremes, either fully or partially? That's my first kind of question. Could you sense that? And I still have that question out there. Now, he's asking now, how do you know that you are in the middle?

[22:26]

And I would say, generally speaking, that when you are in the middle, most purely, you do not necessarily, or perhaps just don't think that you're in the middle. And again, I'll When we get into the next kind of presentation of the middle, you'll see more why that would be antithetical. This is a yoga room, right? And I've had the experience in this yoga room of doing headstands. And my experience of doing a headstand is that when I'm not balanced, I can tell. You don't necessarily fall over when you're not balanced. that I can kind of feel when I'm not balanced. But then sometimes the various kinds of imbalances drop away and there's this balance there. But if I think about that I'm balanced, it throws me off a little.

[23:31]

And the more I'm balanced, the less I'm spending my time celebrating, thinking about this great feat that's occurred. So my experience is that when balanced, that if I confine the balance with the thought, oh, I'm balanced, that may not knock me over, but it detracts from, it confines the balance a little bit for me to say, oh, I'm balanced, or yay, I'm balanced, or how cool it is to be balanced. Although it's okay to do that, of course, it's a free country, a free yoga room. But I've observed that when I do not give the seal of approval to the balance, when my mind doesn't do that, that this situation which I have not said is balance, the situation where I'm not falling over, I don't feel unbalanced, but I have not converted not feeling off-balance into unbalanced,

[24:44]

That if I don't do that, the situation that I have not yet, which is not off balance and it's not on balance, the situation then expands. It gets very big. Which, it's kind of like, seems like that's the point of the posture. But I could say, oh, I'm balanced, or I could say, Donald, am I balanced? And he might say something or other. But for me and Donald to certify that I'm balanced, I think, confines the middle. And that is true of the middle, too. The middle that the Buddha found, you cannot get a hold of it. Which is, again, why it's difficult to face it. Because again, you can get a hold of being off on this side, you can get a hold of being off on that side. I mean, you can fall over, you know, on your face in those two ways, or you can find yourself falling, or you can feel you're about to fall, and you're right, pretty much.

[25:57]

But the middle, really, what's hard to face there is that you can't really get a hold of it. Because it's just being where you are. And you can't get a hold of being where you are. Where you are you can get a hold of if you want to, but you really just are who you are, where you are. But to face that is very difficult and unusual for us. And so it's quite natural that you'd like to know how you'd know if you were there. But that is... actually indicating that you've gotten into an extreme if you get into that much. The middle is still there, it's just that you move away from it. So when you realize the middle, when you realize it, when you understand it, you actually can also tolerate not making it into something you can grasp.

[27:02]

And finally you understand that it is ungraspable and you stop trying to grasp it. And then you realize it even more deeply. But it's hard to get used to because it's unfamiliar to be in a situation where you're not getting something to hold on to and you're not even looking for something to hold on to. So first when you get there, You might feel guilty or something, and then the guilt gives you something to hold on to. But just to be there in this way is unfamiliar and scary in a way. I've found it's much easier once you feel comfortable. You have a lot of nervous skills to build off the sense of imbalance.

[28:08]

So one knee is hurting or your back's a little twisted or separated. After making certain kind of adjustments, there's a quiet stillness, a comfortableness that doesn't last very long because tonight, for me, I suddenly realized, oh, I haven't done this, I've neglected to do that today. In the stillness of sitting came the rush of things yet to do, the pressures of the day. So it's nice, it's comfortable to sit there, but it's not easy to sit. That's another thing you realize in the middle, is you realize the impermanence of, for example, the quiet. Feeling quiet is also... Actually, the quiet's there in a middle way.

[29:10]

Namely, it's in the second kind of middle way, which is that the quiet doesn't last and it's not annihilated. And then things arise. For example, one of the ways that one can see that the quiet doesn't last is that it seems to cease and noise seems to arise. But the middle way of the noise is the noise doesn't last either. And it can be followed by quiet. The second kind of middle way which is more in some ways it emphasizes the first one in some sense emphasizes more like feelings and they could be physical feelings or mental feelings but it's about feelings of pain and pleasure and having some inclination towards one or the other.

[30:39]

particularly an established habitual inclination towards one or both of them. Second kind of middle way emphasizes more way of seeing or a way of understanding. So I just wanted to mention the second way the Buddha says that the world generally is inclined. The world is generally leaning towards two extremes. And in this case, the extreme is put as... It exists and it doesn't exist. Those are the two extremes. And that's why I kept talking about the second one in terms of these questions.

[31:55]

So Phil's question was really, he found some balance and then He wanted to know, well, does the balance exist or not exist? So the mind that wants to find out if the middle has been realized, if the mind that wants to find out does it exist or doesn't exist, is the mind which is going out searching for extremes. like this is the middle, the middle does exist, or the middle doesn't exist. But the second kind of middle is to avoid the extremes of it exists or it doesn't exist. And by exist or doesn't exist means it really exists sort of all by itself, or doesn't exist, really doesn't exist. Those are the two extremes. And...

[32:58]

To have either view generally or in particular on something as a kind of philosophy or view is extremes that are avoided in this second kind of middle way, which in some sense is deeper than the first one. So as I said before, the middle way can't really be grasped. So this is another way to say it can't be grasped because it, the middle way, is something that you can't really grasp as really being there and you can't really grasp as really not being there.

[34:06]

The middle way is the way things are in this middle way. Things are actually between really existing and really not existing. That's the way they actually are. So the first way is the way you conduct your life and whether you're distracting yourself from it by these kinds of devotions. The second middle way is really about the way everything is, not just you as a person, but each phenomena is living in this middle way. The first kind of middle way is kind of necessary in order to study the second middle way because if you're distracting yourself from what's happening, it's hard to look at what's happening and then see that what's happening is happening in a middle way. And the middle way is also sometimes called dependent core arising. That everything happens depending on things other than itself.

[35:13]

Because things happen depending on things other than themselves, they don't really exist in the sense of, you know, they're not permanent and they're not self-existent. They exist only dependently. They don't exist independently. And because they exist dependently rather than independently, they can't make themselves happen and they can't repeat themselves even once more. That's the way things exist. Because they depend on things other than themselves. They can't make themselves happen in the first place and they can't keep themselves going once they're there. So you can't keep silence and stillness going. And they can't keep themselves going. And some people think, hey, no, but don't these great yogis sit down and be quiet and stay quiet for a long time and stay still for a long time?

[36:28]

The middle way says, no great states of yogic concentration and peace those events those states exist in a middle way they happen but they happen through the power of things other than themselves and therefore they can't keep themselves going and they don't last they exist in a middle way but also they don't like not happen it's not like they don't exist at all they do exist dependently so the middle way is actually like that and that way is the way everything is that's the way everything exists Everything exists depending on something else.

[37:36]

And that middle way is also difficult to face. And this, I asked you before, could you sense some kind of inclination towards indulgence in sense pleasure, excuse me, devotion to indulgence in sense pleasure or devotion in self-mortification? I didn't get much of a response. But if I ask you now, can you see some kind of like inclination towards things exist or they don't exist, if I don't get an answer for that, then I think you're really in severe denial. Because almost everybody is doing that. But in this class, you know, I didn't see anybody like reaching into their pocket for, you know, some M&Ms or something during the period. I didn't see anybody popping any pills. I didn't see anybody gouging their flesh or sitting in triple lotus.

[38:41]

Oh, there's a guy here, there's one. See there, finally somebody came out of the closet. But not that much, right? Just one guy. So generally speaking, you were well behaved during that period of meditation, you know. There wasn't heavy self-mortification, mutilating the flesh. Nobody was sitting on a bed of nails that I could see. Nobody was like gouging thorns into their skin. And nobody seemed to be like really like wiggling and twisting and trying to get more and more goddamn comfortable. So I can see that maybe you wouldn't notice that. But the second kind of middle way, you probably could notice that one. That one's going on more even when you're being relatively well behaved. And that's even more difficult to be in the middle where you're not taking the view that things

[39:58]

Go on. Last. You're not taking that view that they last. That's a hard one not to take. Don't you sort of think something's lasting here? You know we're all going to die, but don't you sort of think you're kind of like lasted from the last moment? Don't you? Now you may think, well, as I'll just say, and the other view is that it's also quite easy to take is that we're quite familiar with is things get really annihilated. Like they changed and they're gone. They're not there at all anymore. And so, you know, if you look at something and it looks like it's pretty much the same, like you can see, well, Ronna changed a little bit. There, she just changed. I saw her change. She's smiling a little. She's smiling. No, she has changed. This is not very good. She's changing a lot. It's easy to see she's changing. But Bernard, no, he's changing now too. Would somebody please hold still for a second?

[41:02]

Beth. No, Beth's changing. No, she's not. There she is. She's holding still. So Beth's staying the same. That's good. Thank you, Beth. No, now she changed. It's really okay. I'm just saying that maybe you do feel like, well, yeah, I kind of feel like I'm sort of the same person as I was when I came into the class. But is that like an extreme thing? that it just sort of appears that I'm kind of the same person, although I've changed a little bit and I know I got older and stuff like that, but I do sort of feel like I'm the same person. Matter of fact, I know I've gotten older, but I sort of do feel like I'm the same person that I was when I was five. Same little guy, just in an old body. But is that an extreme view? Well, it is, yeah. The appearance is a consequence of the view. The appearance makes it so we don't see the change.

[42:03]

So, and again, when you start looking at people and talking about how they're not changing, that helps you, actually. When you confess that you think people aren't changing, then that helps you. You tune into that belief that they're not changing. That confession helps you see that they are changing, especially if you share it with them, like I did. Now, then they sort of like, oh yeah, I'm not changing. And then the more you admit that you think that, the more you start to see that that sort of comes from the view and perpetuates the view that we're actually eternal, that we're permanent. And this is a deep habit, this view. basically innate to have this view that things are permanent and so familiar that we hardly notice it however if you would give it up for a little while you would doubt the unfamiliar thing you would notice if you if you

[43:11]

when you start to see impermanence and when you start to see the middle between these extremes, that would be maybe pretty surprising. As a matter of fact, yes, that would be surprising. As a matter of fact, when you're in this realm, you get surprised a lot. You get surprised more than ever before. But it gets to be more like surprising rather than shocked. Now when we see impermanence, sometimes it's just shocking. But sometimes as you get more into it, it's more like surprising. Like when I offer incense, you know, put a stick of incense in, you know, as I meditate in that way, I'm not so much shocked if it doesn't do what I think it might do, I'm not so much shocked, but I'm surprised.

[44:19]

I'd be more shocked if I step on the floor and fall down and break my leg. That's more like shocking. The surprise element maybe is in the background, because I'm so shocked. But these smaller things, when you're meditating on the middle, doing daily tasks, like if you're a Buddhist priest, offering incense is a daily task. If you're washing dishes, if you're working with soap and water, if you're meditating in this way, you might get surprised by actually what happens. The dishes will get clean. I don't know. Your wife may not think so. My wife doesn't. She knows that I do a lot of dish washing, but she doesn't usually think the dishes get clean.

[45:25]

She appreciates the effort, but she doesn't think I'm very skillful. I'm not supposed to say anything about her, but anyway, she almost never does the dishes, but when she does, she does a really good job. She thinks so, anyway. I do, too, actually. She does a better job when she does it. Did you have your hand raised, Carmen? Yes. I understand, I think, what you're trying to say about us thinking that things are common and they're not. And the other extreme is annihilation, thinking that something could be changed forever. Something's totally eliminated. Like it's not there at all. It just seems like because things are so impermanent, it's easier for me to understand that things are not impermanent and that things change all the time.

[46:30]

It's hard for me to understand that that constant change doesn't deny that. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Well, you know, in American culture, a lot of people do think that when a person dies, that they're not there at all anymore. So a lot of people actually, in some cases, I guess that's what you do think is easy to think, right? That when something ceases, it's not there at all anymore. So that side you can understand. You decide that... No, when things change, again, that's good. Things don't change forever. They just change for the moment. Just in that moment. They don't change forever. There you go.

[47:32]

That's an interesting little gift you gave me by saying that things change forever. Now you can say that when they change, they don't change back. But then we turn, they don't change back into what they were before, into that they change forever. That the change, that the change goes on forever. Right? So there you go. You thought it was easy for you not to get into the eternalism, but there you did it. I thought you did. That's what it looks like to me. Now, I don't think that necessarily that view you have of eternalism is going to be going on forever. Because actually, it actually arose there for a second. So the view of eternalism, the view that things last, that view doesn't last forever. That view only lasts for a flash. But it's a common view. that happens again and again in flashes.

[48:34]

So I thought that was really interesting that she thought she could understand in permanence that things change, that things cease, but then she thought that once they ceased, the ceasing goes on forever. And that's annihilation. See, annihilation is that the ceasing goes on forever. It's the eternal ceasing. Right? Funny, huh? What? Both extremes? It's both extremes? In a sense, it's both extremes, except you don't realize that when you see things change, you thought you realized impermanence, but impermanence is that it just changes for the moment. The change doesn't go on forever, and the ending of the thing is not total. Because the thing that's happening now depends on other things.

[49:40]

Okay? Then it ceases. It arises independence on other things. And it ceases independence on other things. Yes. When you said Bernard, right before that, there was no thought that any me existed. That you knew about. That I knew about. We knew about it. So this is what you're talking about now. When you said Bernard, I immediately existed in my mind. But obviously it passed. It's kind of like the same thing. Yes. So my view changed. Your view changed. Right. The simple ones, huh? Yes. They all are kind of simple, actually. Could you wait a second?

[50:52]

There's something a little bit more I want to tease out of this one. And that is, when something arises, it doesn't arise by its own power, and it doesn't cease by its own power. Because it doesn't arise by its own power, it can't last. And because it doesn't cease by its own power, it can't last. The ceasing can't last either. Because the ceasing is not done by the thing itself. So the thing itself can't keep itself in the ceasing state because it's ceasing dependent on other things.

[51:53]

So the ceasing is also impermanent. Namely, ceasing is not annihilation. See how it works? Just a second. Rana was next. You're welcome. When you were talking about washing dishes and surprise arises, actually those surprises are more linked to the sense realization. But there are senses that suddenly... Well, she said that the surprise was linked to the sense thing, but I think actually the surprise is more linked not more linked, but equally linked to your attitude, that your mind is surprised.

[52:54]

When you see blue, your eye isn't exactly surprised to see blue. It's more your mind that's surprised. I don't mean to separate the two, but I never felt like my eyes were surprised to see a color. It's more like my history is surprised to see things. or my aesthetic capacity arises. Maybe it's more like now I'm a little bit aware of like the touch of things, the sense of, you know, Yeah. Yeah. It has a different experience than before. Like I notice, you know, I notice things that I usually miss them. Like I notice my hair. I notice my hand in there.

[53:58]

Yeah. This is kind of the middle way too. We start to notice the feel of things, the smell of things, because you're not spending your time indulging in self-mortification and sensory pleasure, you kind of like more here with what's happening. Then, even to be more fully here, you can then start to open up to, do you have the view that what's happening lasts or that when it ceases, it ceases forever. So I'm just saying, check that out, and then you go deeper into the middle way. But again, isn't that funny that we can appreciate that things change or things cease, but we don't just have them cease, we have them cease eternally.

[55:03]

So we flip-flap back and forth between existence and non-existence, these two views, and we really do see things that way. And things are not that way. It's very much linked to our breathing. It's very much linked to our breathing. Yeah, it's linked to our breathing. And this breathing that you said, that in a real way you experience things expanding. Like before, when I was breathing, I didn't know where to go. You know, it was really... You know, but now, sometimes I can breathe and it just goes. And I don't know where it goes. It goes really, and I feel it goes out of my ears and, you know, it just goes out, you know. And this seizing, rising and seizing is very much, everything is like that. The ocean comes down and we go down, you know, this movement.

[56:11]

Yeah. Great. Patti. I'm struggling to see how that is not. My mom passed away, so my ability to have a face-to-face interaction with them as Sikhs Yes. Well, again, I said the fact that things don't go back to the way they were before gets converted into annihilation. I'm not saying things change back to the way they were before. The middle way doesn't say that. I'm not saying you get young again.

[57:13]

I'm just saying that the way you are now doesn't last forever, which I guess you all got that picture. But what I'm suggesting to you is that part of you thinks that although you don't think you're going to never get any older, part of you thinks you're going to last forever. I'm suggesting that you check that out. I'm suggesting that probably you do think you're going to last forever. The other side of it is when somebody dies and you're still alive, then you see they didn't last forever. So then you turn their not lasting forever into that they're not lasting forever. Or you turn their ceasing into forever. Rather than, she changed and she's not like what she was before, but what is she? She's not where she was before, but what is she?

[58:19]

And what are you right now? You're not what you used to be before, but what are you now? And what is the middle way that you are now? And what is the middle way you were before? And what is the middle way you will be later? The way you used to be is that you weren't permanent. And also, the way you used to be was not annihilated. Can you see that the way you used to be was not annihilated? Yeah. The way you used to be is not annihilated. However, the middle way that you used to be and the middle way you are now and the middle way you will be later, including the middle way that you will be when you so-called die, it's the same middle way.

[59:21]

And this is what we're trying to find, is the way we always are through all the changes. That we do change, And also, when we don't go on, we don't last, even for another moment, we don't, and we are not annihilated. As a matter of fact, we turn, so turning it back the other way, we turn the fact that we're not annihilated into that we last, and we turn the fact that we don't last into annihilation. So I do feel like I've been here all this time. So I turn the fact that I wasn't, the five-year-old boy has not been annihilated. He's not here anymore, but he's not totally not here.

[60:27]

He's not completely non-existent. Isn't that a little bit difficult for you to get? And at the same time, don't you sort of get it? The five-year-old girls that you used to be, the five-year-old boys that you used to be, they're not completely, totally non-existent. And they didn't used to be, when you were five, that thing wasn't totally, like, really there all by itself. But if you think it was there all by itself, then it would be totally annihilated. But it wasn't ever that way. So it was totally annihilated. So see, this is more what you're into, right? This is the extremes which you can more easily identify even when you're being relatively well-behaved. Carl? No, that's not right.

[61:40]

See, he said, but I appreciate you saying that, that's good. He said, when things change, they're not annihilated, they're just different. But when you say they're just different, then that means you think they lasted. See, most people understand gross impermanence, like they understand that when you die, you know, that you're going to be, that's not just going to be different, right? You're going to cease. You're going to cease. It's not just different. But before that, what you thought was that when the five-year-old ceased and the five-and-a-half-year-old arose, that it wasn't really, the five-year-old wasn't annihilated. The five-year-old continued in a different form. That's another way, see? This thing called the five-year-old now is five-and-a-half-year-old or five-year-and-one-day-old. So you don't see the impermanence of the five-year-old.

[62:44]

You think the five-year-old lasts. And if you can't see the five-year-old lasts, if you actually see that the five-year-old didn't just become different, the same five-year-old, but now it's a different five-year-old, different same person, if you can't see that, then you annihilate it. It's hard to be in the middle. see you flip from one of the other so it isn't a different it isn't it you aren't a different version of what you used to be what you used to be ceased but wasn't annihilated it isn't like you're just you're the same person but different no the person you used to be a few moments ago ceased but was not annihilated This isn't a different version of the same person. This is a different person. The other one ceased. But the other one was not annihilated. And this one won't be either.

[63:45]

And this one won't last to be another version of himself. He'll be a totally different person. And the old person, who's not this person, was not annihilated and didn't last. You see, the middle way is much more dynamic than we're used to coping with. We like to make things the way they aren't. And there's reasons for that. Let's see, I think Jenny, maybe Jenny was next, I'm not sure. The way that I understand what you're saying is via the teaching of karma. And that, you know, I was born into the world with issues and stuff from the past. And if I don't fix them in this lifetime, I get to be with them in the next lifetime.

[64:47]

I get bored with the same stuff of children if I don't change. So does that make sense? I think I understand what you're saying, yeah. But I don't know. Pardon? Does it what? Your karma does go with you from five to Yeah, part of the great challenges of Buddhism is to try to figure out how you can account for karmic transmission when you have impermanence. It's tough. It's kind of hard to understand how the cause and effect works when you have this radical impermanence. But we sort of have to work with it, because it's really important.

[65:52]

So this is part of our challenge, is to understand how that all works. The other question I have is, where does the study of Buddhism Where does the study of Buddhism what? It lasts. It has lasted. Yeah, right. That's not the middle way. What you just said is not the middle way. That's Gin and Jenny's way, what you just stated. Okay, what is the Buddhist way? The Buddhist way is the middle way. Okay, but the study of Buddhism has lasted. No, that's what you say. That's called the extreme of it exists. You're showing us the extreme of exists right now. That's an extreme that Buddhism recommends giving up and doing the middle way. So now here we have a few seconds.

[66:52]

This is your chance to state the Buddhist position. Again, try to give it another try about Buddhism. The study of Buddhism evolved through Yeah, that's true. But let's get into this lasting and not lasting thing again, okay? The study of Buddhism... You said before, it lasts. Passed on, that's fine too. The study of Buddhism, does it last? According to Buddhism... According to the Middle Way, does the study of Buddhism last? Huh? Jenny, you hear those people say no? According to the Buddha's teaching, does the study of Buddhism last? And is the study of Buddhism annihilated?

[67:54]

No. It's not annihilated. It's happening right now, right in this room. Did this last from before? According to the Buddhist teaching? No, it didn't. The Buddhism before this class is not lasting over to this class. But it's not annihilated because, look, because we have a new class of it. It's not totally annihilated. It's happening again. But it's not the same thing in a different form. It's a different thing. in the same form, sort of. It's kind of the same. It's kind of like Buddhism, [...] and it's not the same one as before. And the one before didn't get annihilated, and it didn't last. This is hard to understand. The middle way is hard to understand.

[69:00]

It's easy to think that things last or that they're annihilated. You are demonstrating how easy it is. You're doing it very nicely, right? We can all do that. But the middle way, so subtle, very difficult. And this is being demonstrated, too, how difficult it is, how hard it is to understand. Now you have something that's really worthy of having a hard time with. This is something that's hard, so go ahead and enjoy how hard it is. And we have six more classes, by which time you probably still will think it's hard. It's like I've been studying for a while. I'm still amazed how subtle it is, how subtle the middle way, how it's the balance, it's the supreme balancing act of the body and the mind. It's very, very wonderfully difficult. Yes? I just wonder, I'm sitting here trying to grasp it as a concept. Yeah.

[70:00]

And it feels to me that's not the way to understand it. That's right. Try not to even grasp it as a concept. Let the concept also be, like in a middle way, and then you will understand it. But could I understand it through experience more than... This would be my other way. Okay, I don't grasp it. It sounds like you're trying to get into the back door there. There's no way to grasp it. And even though we can't grasp it, there's no way to grasp, we can understand that. It can be understood. You can realize it. You can understand it. You just can't grasp it. Paul really wants to ask a question. It seems like there's no place in the middle way for any concept of time. That's not true.

[71:02]

That's not true? The middle way has room for everything. So it's got room for it. But linear thinking may have no place for that. No, there's room for everything. It's just that this linear thinking about time, it happens. It does happen. There is linear thinking about time. I think they have some right over there near you. It happens. It's something that happens in this world, and it happens in a middle way. And so when you understand the middle way, you'll understand linear thinking differently too. Once you understand the middle way about anything, that's a different understanding than we have before. It's the way of understanding things that's peace and freedom. But it doesn't mean that there's no phenomena. You can't name anything that the middle way won't deal with.

[72:04]

It deals with everything in an even-handed way and demonstrates the way the thing actually is in this balanced middle way, which when we realize that, which is very difficult to realize it fully, we attain the Buddha way. So you'd bring any topic and we do the same meditation on it. We try anyway, do the same meditation on it, and then our understanding will change. Just like if you practice the middle way, when each person you meet, you try to see, now what's the middle way that this person exists? Well, this person doesn't exist by her own power. She's not making herself happen. She exists. She's created independence on other things. As you start to meditate on this, on the pinnacle arising in the middle way, it starts to change your relationships with people or topics or ideas, everything, concepts. Okay?

[73:10]

Thank you very much.

[73:11]

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