And there's two primary texts that I was going to look at with you. One is, as I mentioned already, the Dharma Chakravartana Sutta, the scripture of turning the Dharma wheel, setting the Dharma wheel in motion. which is supposed to be like the first discourse that Buddha gave to his five monks, who he used to practice with when he was into self-mortification. And so in that scripture, what's presented is sometimes called the practical middle way, And the other scripture, which I maybe start discussing tomorrow, is the Kacchayana Nagota Sutta, which is a discourse to Mr. Kacchayana.

[01:17]

And in that, the Buddha presents the philosophical middle way. And copies of the Sutra of Setting the Dharma Wheel in Motion will be available to you this evening or tomorrow morning. If you want one, you can get one. It's also in the Samyutta Nikaya 5, 420. If you want to look it up in the book. And by the way, there's a little typo in this transcription of the text. Under the heading of the Noble Truth of Cessation of Suffering, it says, this origin of suffering, and it should be this cessation of suffering, if you check this copy.

[02:22]

This morning we talked in more detail about what it means, what the extreme of addiction or indulgence in sense pleasure means. And again, it doesn't mean there's anything wrong with sense pleasure. It's just that the addiction to sense pleasure or the indulgence in sense pleasure can often turn into a way of distracting ourselves from the middle way, from the central position, the central path to happiness, which includes facing the truths of your life. And one of the truths of life is that if there's any ignorance, if our understanding isn't complete, there's going to be some suffering and some anxiety.

[03:44]

And we need to face the consequences of our understanding. And facing them in a balanced way is the middle way. sense pleasures may arise to one who is walking the middle way so you're walking along you know anxiously walking along right you're full of anxiety surrounded by hangs by the great unknown You're suffering away with the first noble truth. A sense pleasure arises. That's okay. We're not criticizing the sense pleasure. It's the attachment to it that's the problem. When you grab it, it'll throw you off the path, probably. Unless you're really tricky, the way you grab. And the Kapali word

[04:50]

it's alika in this compound attachment to sense desire, sense pleasure it means to stick to or to cling to it also has a kind of meaning of to be defiled by or to be soiled by. So, if you grab these sense pleasures, if you cling to them, they'll defile you. They'll hurt you. But it isn't that they hurt you, it's the clinging that hurts you. And by the way, the English word addiction has the root meaning of... to give over. And it means to give over somebody to somebody else as a slave.

[05:53]

So like when a Roman citizen would say, I give this slave to you, they would proclaim, you know, this is yours now. That Atticus was their word. So it's to give over to slavery. And another translation would be indulgence. So indulge means to yield to. It doesn't necessarily mean to yield to an excessive degree, but that's especially the way it's used, is to yield to an excessive degree to these sense pleasures in such a way that they knock you off course, the course of happiness, which is called the middle way. And as I mentioned also this morning, I looked up the word comma, C-O-M-A, C-A-M-A, C-long-A-M-A.

[07:01]

And there's a big citation on that in the Polytexts dictionary. And the sense pleasure or sense desire is... Is the word markedly what? What? Most marked application. The most marked application of attachment to sense desire happens in sex. But it isn't just in sexual activity. But that's where the application tends to be most marked. where the grip is the most powerful. Plus the things that arise in relationship to sex, like your children.

[08:03]

These kind of adhesions are most marked. So it's not that sex is the problem, it's the holding to it that causes the disruption of the path And giving up that detachment and giving up reacting on the other side to attaching to mortifying thoughts and actions, giving up those two extremes, one can walk the middle way. But these things keep popping up, these opportunities keep popping up all the time. So you have to keep kind of like, as you walk through the garden of of mortifying opportunities and pleasurable opportunities, you need to just kind of like keep your hands to yourself. Just, you know, kind of dance through.

[09:07]

Don't grab anything. Don't take what's not given. Don't grab. And if you do grab, then confess and notice what happens to you when you grab. Now the Buddha also said that after he talked about this Noble Truth, Noble Eightfold Path, then he went on to talk about the Four Noble Truths. And I just want to say once again that the cessation of suffering is the complete cessation of thirst, the giving it up, the renouncing it, the emancipating oneself from it, the detachment of oneself from it, from thirst. So, because of ignorance, based on ignorance, there's various dispositions.

[10:09]

Already the ignorance is that you're ignoring something. You're turning away from something. You're turning away from the big picture, the full story, of what's going on. And then, because of this ignorance, there's various dispositions, various inclinations to approach, to lean towards. And then there is the arising of dualistic consciousness. And then there's the arising of a sense of something out there. And when there's a sense of something out there, when we are impacted by that sense of out there, we feel something. And when we feel something about that thing out there, we get hungry. We thirst for it. And when we thirst for it, we can't help but grasp it. And when we grasp it, we can't help but try to develop it. And then the whole birth, old age, sickness, death, lamentation, and so on happens.

[11:14]

And then we're more likely to do the same thing again. So round we go. So cessation is when you somehow cut through that thirst for that thing out there. And the middle way is the way you conduct yourself while you're still thirsting and grasping. and suffering because of the grasping and then not going into reaction to that by these extremes but staying with this basic suffering until there is you know gradually vision of the origins of the suffering which tends to transform your consciousness so that

[12:17]

you actually stop grasping, even though you're still thirsting. And by practicing non-grasping, you end thirsting. And when you end thirsting, you can see that the dualistic consciousness is incoherent and then you can stand to face the truth, which you've been ignoring for so long. But I want to say one more time, and I'll say it again, in order to face this painful situation, We have to be practicing all the time compassion with ourselves and with others. Otherwise it's too hard to look at this thing.

[13:21]

And you can even look at this thing in a way that looking at it can be a kind of reaction from looking at it. In other words, this painful situation where we experience the consequences of our attachment, if you bear down on it too hard, it turns into self-mortification. And then you're not really looking at the pain. You're actually in reaction to it. But you think, hey, I must be right. I'm suffering. But you can suffer too much. You can indulge in it. And then you actually distance yourself from it by sticking your head into it. So you have to stay upright and balanced and face the suffering. Just face it. Of course don't grab it, but also don't lean into it. And we need to be feeling a lot of support to do this work.

[14:23]

But if you don't feel like you're supporting yourself, that will undermine your sense of being supported by others. And if you don't feel like you support others, that will undermine your sense of being supported by others. On the other hand, if you do support yourself and give yourself loving kindness and compassion and do the same with others, you will gradually be more and more convinced that everybody's supporting you to do this really hard work. And you'll be more and more convinced that the Buddha ancestors are not kidding when they said this is the work and that they did the work too and that it should be joyful work even though it's hard. So we need to be diligent about this. Somehow we have to find diligence. And again, diligence, the root of the word diligence is from Old French, which means loving, attentive, careful.

[15:29]

So we need to lovingly walk this middle path, carefully, attentively walk this path. We need to be full of zeal about walking this path. walking the path of giving up reaction, of not grasping or attaching or indulging in sense pleasures and not attaching or indulging in working too hard or being too hard on ourself or doing something that's too hard.

[16:54]

I think if you can practice the path diligently, with great joy and zeal, you can face the first noble truth, the second one will come to you, the third one will come to you, and the fourth one is what you're doing. And then you can be just like the Buddha. You can see these truths. And you can, what does he say? You can know the first noble truth. You can understand the first noble truth. And you can abandon the origins, which are the second noble truth. You can abandon the origins of suffering. and you can realize cessation of suffering, and you can practice the Eightfold Path, which is a middle way.

[18:11]

You can do that. Maybe that's enough. John? What do you distinguish between pain and suffering? What I distinguish between pain and suffering? Well, the word that is used in traditional text for pain and suffering is oftentimes the same word. Dukkha. So like...

[19:18]

You know, in terms of every moment you have some sensation probably, whether you're aware of it or not, there's some sensation. And sensations sometimes come in painful or dukkha form. They sometimes come in pleasurable or sukha form. And they sometimes come in neutral form, which you can't really tell whether it's dukkha or sukha. But... And that kind of pain and pleasure is not necessarily a problem. Um, I, if I said that, I'd take it back. You said that you'd become more comfortable with it.

[20:29]

This is what I got out of it. Yeah. You'd become more comfortable with it, but it never really goes away. Yeah, so I don't, I don't say that. This afternoon, I don't say that. After it sets up. So, if you have some pain and you practice patience with it, the practicing patience with it doesn't make the pain go away. But the pain may go away whether you practice patience or not. All pain that I know of goes away. I don't know of any pain that's in Buddhism, in Buddhist teaching, we don't have any, you know, interminable pain. Pain in general also comes and goes. But there's a certain kind of pain that's just the pain of negative sensation, that kind of pain.

[21:32]

That's also called dukkha. And if you practice patience, that doesn't necessarily make that pain go away. But practicing patience makes it possible for you to practice the middle away in the middle of that pain. In other words, you can be very happy in the middle of a painful sensation. Okay? Like, I don't know what, you could have a headache, and the headache could be due, for example, to not having eaten for several hours. which is maybe a good pain to indicate to you that maybe you should eat something. Time to go eat. But you can be happy in the middle of that pain if you practice the middle way with it. So, practice patience and other virtues in the middle of the pain. You can be very happy and free while you're having a headache. But there's another kind of pain

[22:34]

that can arise in the middle or on top of that pain. And that's the pain that arises from you being anxious. And you can also practice patience with that pain. And that pain of anxiety is there as long as you don't understand the truth. And that pain, although that pain arises and ceases, it doesn't last either. It arises in each moment. it arises in every moment, but it doesn't last. It's an impermanent pain that happens every moment. As long as you don't understand, every moment you get a little chunk of anxiety, or a big chunk of anxiety. But even that rises and ceases. So painful sensations arise and cease, but not every moment. Anxiety arises in every moment, every moment, until you understand.

[23:36]

So, when painful sensations arise, you can have general anxiety, but you can also have anxiety about that painful sensation, like, you know, what did I do to get this? You know, how long is it going to last? And pleasurable sensation, how can I make this happen again? How long is it going to last? And neutral sensations, also, I'm worried about that. But you can practice patience with regular painful sensation. You can practice patience with anxiety. You can practice patience with manifold pain complexes. You can practice patience. And if you practice patience, you can be enthusiastic about practicing patience and then practice patience even more and be more enthusiastic about practicing patience. And the more you practice patience, the more enthusiastic you will be about it. Until finally you see the origins of this suffering.

[24:43]

Say it again. Would anxiety correspond to what? Yeah, sometimes people try to use two different words like Which one do you want to use it for? Pain for like painful sensation? And suffering? Suffering, yeah. Or misery. Like a headache, you have a painful headache. Or a bee bites you and you have a pain. But the other kind is misery. Woe. Not that there will always be pain, but sometimes pain will happen pain will always come and go unless you're in a heaven, which we don't recommend. But even the Buddha had pain at the end of his life. He had disease, I mean he had a sickness, and he had a kind of disease, physical problems, and he had pain.

[25:50]

You know, he seemed to be suffering physically. But, he wasn't miserable, he was still a happy Buddha. Happy to be Buddha, happy to be teaching Dharma, full of joy and enthusiasm about practice, and having major physical problems. Question? Now, he was talking to... In this talk here, he was talking to five monks. And these five monks... In the old days, when he used to play with them, doing the self-mortification practices, which all these five people were good at, these were his long-term self-mortification cronies.

[27:13]

They had already left the household life and were wandering around trying to get liberation through the self-mortification thing. And he sort of gave that up and became a Buddha instead. And then he ran into them and they said, where have you been? And he said, well, I woke up and I'm a Buddha now, or I'm the Buddha. And I really, one version of this I really like because it says that those people that he met, these guys he met, he didn't look necessarily like a Buddha or anything. But before he was a Buddha, he never lied to them. So they thought, he never lied before, probably might not be lying now, so let's listen to him. So they listened to him, and he started to tell them about what he saw. And they listened, and they woke up too. And this is what he told them.

[28:16]

But they had already left the home life, so he was telling them, now you guys have given up the home life in order to practice this. So since you've made this big effort, you better practice the middle way if you want to work. So I see that part too about leaving the home life. There may be a way that you can realize the real truth and still be taking care of little ones and medium-sized ones and big ones. Because monks also take care of little ones, medium-sized ones and big ones. Monks take care of little monks, medium-sized monks and big monks. So I think you can care for beings in a sheltered area

[29:19]

and realize the way? I think so. Because, in fact, the Buddha, you know, lived in sheltered areas and took care of living beings. The thing is, you've got to, like, not possess these living beings and not possess your housing. So you have... What they mean by a householder, I think, is somebody who's still attached to the beings that they're caring for, including themselves. As far as I can tell, we have to give up attachments in order to give up attachments. This path is about giving up attachments. Cessation means you let go of the stuff out there. You let go of it. As long as you're holding on to it, it's just going to keep being out there and you're going to keep thirsting. You have to let go. You have to renounce your attachments. I think There may be another way, but I think this is the Buddha way, is renounce your attachments.

[30:27]

Some people, you know, walk out of their house, go off in the monastery, and they get the monastery, and then they get attached to their housing in the monastery. Or they get attached to their cushion, or their slippers, or their positions. Well, that's not going to work. And there's many stories about monks getting attached to things and the teacher saying, no, no, no. So I think if you stay at home, if you want to practice the way, you have to renounce your attachments. I think so. It was more difficult to practice. Now, during the summer season, when there were more things to do, so many things to do, that it was distracting, that being a householder with many more things to do, it's full-time, all the time.

[31:36]

Right. There needs to be more support for you. There needs to be a lot of support. We've got to understand we need a lot of support. We need support, definitely. But still, even though if we get the support, we still have to do the big thing called letting go. I take it back. We don't do the big thing, letting go. The big thing called letting go has to happen. And we need support to let it happen, to dare to let it happen. So... Each of us has to look to see where we're holding on and see if we can keep our eye on where we're holding on. And even to keep our eye to where we're holding on, we need support. But if we can watch, if we can do that, we're on the path, I think. If we're watching where we're holding, where we're attached, then we'll see the consequences of our holdings and our attachments. And if we see the consequences of our holding and attachments, our mind, as we see that, we are transformed by that vision.

[32:42]

and our body and mind become more and more willing to let go or to participate in the letting go that's already happened. This cessation is not, you don't make it happen, it is just realized in your life. You don't make all this cessation happen. You just allow it. So I think, in a way, we all have to do this. And I wish that it isn't just people in so-called monasteries that are doing this. And I hope that also the people in the monasteries do it. So again, even in Tassajara, when the monks in the summer have all these big responsibilities to run the guest season, they have them in the winter too. But there's more responsibilities. On top of the ones we have in the winter, we have more responsibilities. We have to make special food, and make beds that we didn't have to usually make, and drive more trucks over the road, and... run cash registers and sell books and videotapes.

[33:45]

We have to do all that stuff that we don't have to do in the winter. And how can we do that carefully, lovingly, without getting attached? Well, it's hard. So the monks notice all these attachments arising and they notice all the pain around that and they wish they could go maybe to some place where they weren't so attached. And in the winter, maybe it seems you don't notice your attachments so much. So, let's go back to the winter. Okay, it'll be winter soon. Monks have to leave the monastery sometimes and go to the city to see if they won't be attached to the city. City people, I think, sometimes have to go away from the city into the monastery to see what happens to them there. So wherever you are, you need to keep moving around and checking yourself to see if you're holding anything. This is about non-attachment.

[34:48]

This whole thing is about non-attachment. How can we realize non-attachment and non-seeking? The Buddha is saying it's possible. The Buddha is saying it's a good thing. And I'm saying you need a lot of support to give yourself to the way of non-attachment So at home, you know, there you are being a mother of a bunch of kids who need your attention and your love. So there it is, somebody to take care of. Who's supporting you to not be attached to them? Well, they are to some extent. To some extent, they're telling you, you know, things would go more smoothly if you weren't attached to us. But how do you take care of them and find a non-attachment? They're kind of They're kind of saying, take care of me without attachment. They're kind of saying that to you. But where is that? They're giving this message, but they're giving it to you in this kind of incoherent way.

[35:53]

They're not that skillful at guiding you to find what they're trying to tell you you need to do. So that's why it's nice if you could have some other people who were practicing with you, if you could help each other. with this project and make a Sangha that pervades the entire, you know, world. Yes? Isn't coupling up about attachment? Would there be no coupling if there was no attachment? Isn't coupling up about attachment? Would there be no coupling if there were no attachment? I don't think so. Huh? No, I think there could be coupling without attachment.

[37:01]

Now, of course, we know there can be coupling with attachment. So how could there be coupling without attachment? For example, would it be possible for a student to meet a teacher and a teacher to meet a student and them to couple without attachment? Could they form a bond of mutual respect and devotion and commitment without attachment? And you could say, well, yes. Does it happen all the time that way? No. Usually, for example, students actually go out of their way to find a teacher. So there's kind of an approach there. But it is possible the student would be just walking along the road, teacher walking along the road, bump into each other and say, hi, who are you? Well, I'm so-and-so. Actually, I have a story about that that I've told many times. You know? There was this guy walking along the road. His name was Buddha. And he was like, you know, not with his group.

[38:05]

You know? He sometimes took solitary walks. Can you imagine the Buddha walking by himself down the road? He had lots of students, but sometimes he said, see you later. We're taking a walk. And he wouldn't bring an entourage with him. And one time he was walking along And he needed a place to stay so he went to this house of this potter and he said, could I stay overnight at your house? And the guy said, yeah. You can stay in my potter's shed. No, he said, no. He said, I have room in my potter's shed but there's already somebody staying there. So if it's alright with him, you can stay there. So the Buddha went to the potter's shed and asked this guy who was staying there if he could stay there with him. And the guy said, sure, there's room. So the Buddha, you know, stayed in this potter's shed with this guy. And this guy happened to be a yogi, like the Buddha. So they both did their yogi thing all night. And the Buddha noticed this other yogi and said, hey, he's a good yogi.

[39:09]

I don't know what the yogi thought of the Buddha. But anyway, in the morning, the Buddha said, who's your teacher? Under whom did you leave the world under whom did you give up attachments and seek the way and the guy said uh i'm i'm studying under shakimuni buddha and buddha said have you ever met shakimuni buddha and the guy said no i never met him say would you know what he looked like if you saw him said no And then the Buddha said, would you like a little Dharma talk? And the guy said, okay, I'm listening. And the Buddha gave him a Dharma talk. And about three-fourths of the way to the Dharma talk, the guy woke up. And, you know, he let the Buddha keep talking.

[40:13]

He didn't say, that's enough, I woke up, stop. So he let the Buddha keep chatting away until he finished his little discourse, which we now have. And when he woke up, he realized who was talking to him. So he said, you know, I was looking for my teacher and I found my teacher. And I'm really sorry that I didn't recognize you when I first saw you. And I'm sorry that I addressed you and I spoke to you in a kind of, you know, off-handed, nonchalant way. But I didn't know. And the Buddha didn't say, actually, that's okay, it's okay. He just said, yeah, you were kind of disrespectful, but it's okay. And then he said one of the most important things. He said, when you recognize a mistake as a mistake, the Dharma wheel turns.

[41:14]

So he not only woke up, but he recognized a mistake, and he recognized his teacher, and they met without either one, I think, having an attachment to each other. They met, and it is possible. And sometimes the relationship starts with attachment, and then gradually you work your way out of it. And so you stay together out of devotion and commitment, but not attachment. So, like, our children, if we have children, they come into our life and they go out. And we're supposed to let them go, actually. And we have trouble letting them go. Because when you take care of something for a long time, you tend to get attached. But you're not supposed to get attached. It isn't healthy. It's not healthy. You're supposed to take care of them like a Buddha. You know, be totally devoted to them. Think about them all the time.

[42:19]

Give them all your love and all your blood and all your milk and all your money and all your time and all your patience. Give them everything with no attachment. This is what a Buddha does. You're supposed to be a Buddha. But of course, most people, they give everything like that or almost everything like that. but they also kind of like skim a little bit for themselves. It's not supposed to do that. And not everybody has a Buddha in the house to say, you know, you're getting a little attached there. Let go, let go, let go. So we build these major attachments up over the years so that even when we can see we should let the kid go, there's still a little bit of, you know, Why are you dressing like that? Did you put sunscreen on? It's okay to say, did you put sunscreen on, to anybody you want, but you tend to do it with certain people.

[43:32]

Even though they're like 25 years old, 30 years old, did you put sunscreen on? It is possible. That's what Buddha is saying. Buddha is saying it is possible. It's possible to do this amazing thing called being a Buddha. It's easy not to be attached to people that you don't give your blood to and you don't give your money to and you don't give your milk to. It's easy to not be attached to them. Although some people manage to attach to them too. But to give everything to someone and not attach, that's like a Buddha. So you can be a Buddha, but it's not easy. But why not try? Why not? Well, the reason is because it's so expensive, right? It's such a high standard. But that's being held out to you.

[44:35]

But I think you've got to do the renunciation. You've got to give up attachments. It's required, I think. I can't imagine how it's going to work otherwise. You got to let go because really, you know, there's not anything to hold on out there. There's nothing out there. Nothing's out there, so you got to let go. If you're holding on, you're going to always think there is something out there. Because you're saying, your attachments, you know, it's like there's something there. But if you really look carefully, you won't find anything and then you won't be able to attach. Or if you practice non-attachment, you'll be able to say, yeah. Yeah. We've got to realize that there's not anybody out there. And take care of everybody as though there were. Okay? It's on tape. Play it back. Let's hear it. Uh-oh.

[45:44]

Uh-oh. Uh-oh. We're not attached to this tape. We're not attached to this teaching. We're not attached to these students or these teachers. We have no attachments. At least that's our vow, right? Attachments are inexhaustible. I vow to let go. I vow to join the path of letting go of all attachment, which is a practice that I don't accomplish by myself, but only together with all beings. Fortunately, there are all beings to practice with, so we got the perfect setup. Anything else this afternoon?

[46:47]

Yes? Yeah, I think it's like it's really a natural human thing. I think a big part of our equipment is around, you know, the very complex way that we mate, you know, with proms and stuff like that. Other animals don't have to figure out, don't have to know how to go to a prom, you know, or pose for the pictures and all that stuff, you know, and go shopping, you know, and rent a tuxedo. We have to do all that stuff, you know, to mate. Learn to dance. learn to justify not being able to dance. All that stuff. It's about sex.

[47:50]

So yeah, we have a really complex, huge complex, incredibly complex system of ways of coping. We have all these ways, you know, like, we can cope with the incredible intense change of a person's face, you know, the look on a person's face, how it's changing all the time. We can notice all these slight variations and get really excited about them. You know, autistic people, they can't stand to look at a face because there's so much information coming off our face. They just like, they can't deal with all the information that's coming off a human face. We have all this neurological equipment to deal with a human face, which is very much, it's about reproduction. What does this face mean? Does this person support me reproducing under these circumstances or not? Do I have respect from people? Can I get together with so-and-so or not? So we have this tremendous thing about reproduction and about sex.

[48:53]

For his monks, yeah. What he recommended was being celibate. But he recommended more than being celibate. He recommended the actuality of non-attachment. Some monks, some people are celibate. Like right now, as far as I know, everybody in this room is celibate. For the moment. You know? And during practice period, here, you know, 90% of the people in the practice period, or 100% sometimes, for most of the practice period, are celibate. But even though they are, some of those people who are so-called celibate are thinking of pretty much nothing but sex during meditation. They're having no, you know, they don't have a spouse, they don't have a boyfriend, they don't have a girlfriend, you know. They don't even masturbate.

[50:02]

But they're constantly thinking about sex while they're sitting. almost constantly, except when that doesn't work, then they think of something else. They use sex, they use thinking of sex as a way of diverting their attention from what's happening. That's what the Buddha is talking about, is diverting your attention from what's going on. And, you know, The Buddha, you know, wasn't practicing celibacy. Buddhists don't like practice celibacy. They aren't into that. Do you understand? I never, I never, somebody show me where the Buddha said he was practicing celibacy.

[51:08]

I do not, I never heard of the Buddha practicing celibacy. He maybe recommended it to some of his monks, but I do not know the Buddha saying, I practice celibacy. He was being Buddha. You know? Buddha's like, not like, sort of like, it's not like Buddha's thinking, oh, well, we, you know, I'm not going to do that. Or like, no, I can't do that. Or I've got to stop myself from doing that. Or I'm committed to this, not that. Do you think Buddha thinks like that? I don't think so. If Buddha wants to have sex, ladies and gentlemen, if Buddha wants to have sexual intercourse, Buddha will have sexual intercourse if Buddha wants to touch somebody on the nose Buddha will touch somebody on the nose if Buddha wants to get married and have lots of kids Buddha will get married and have lots of kids but Buddha didn't want to Buddha just wanted to teach Dharma

[52:34]

but it wasn't like he was holding back his sexual impulses. He wasn't practicing celibacy. And when you're not having sex, I said it a few minutes ago that you're practicing celibacy. Really, you're not practicing celibacy just by not having sex. Practicing celibacy usually means you're committed to a path of not having sex, sexual intercourse, or whatever your definition of You know, it's called Brahmacharya, right? The path of the Brahmins, the divine path. Okay? Whatever you define as the Brahmacharya, that's your Brahmacharya. You say, I'm not going to do X. That's a discipline you take on and you give up something. Okay? But I don't think the Buddha was... I don't think the Buddha had to give up anything. He just had other things to do. I think you did recommend monks to... Yeah, right.

[53:37]

I think so. But, you know, you'd have... You make your own contract about, you know, what you say. This is what it means. Some teachers might tell you specifically, I want you to do... I want you to not do this, this, and this, or put it positively, I want you to do this, this, and this. Teacher might do that. Student might do something... The student might also propose it. I find that it's pretty hard to, you know... I find it, myself... that it's pretty hard to practice celibacy or practice fasting or something like that without some kind of like gaining idea. I usually find that people who want to do this are on some kind of, they want to get something for themselves. So I usually feel like a better practice for them, rather than fasting or being celibate, is that they don't get involved in any relationship like that without, for example, talking to me.

[54:58]

Because if, like somebody who's staying this morning, if you say you're not going to do something, it makes it more interesting. You know, you kind of heighten it by saying you're not going to do it. Just like sometimes right after somebody gets ordained here, everybody gets real attracted to them. Like, oh, you're celibate, huh? Wow, that's very mysterious. I've never met a celibate monk before. What's that like? How do you feel now? And like sometimes people get together here, you know, and then they feel like maybe it was a mistake to get together. And then they break up and stay away from each other. And then they get really interested in each other. And the reason why they're attracted to each other is because they're separated and not supposed to be together anymore. Then they get back together because of that.

[56:03]

Then they realize that they got back together because of that, and that's not a good reason to be together. You know, to be together because it's so weird to be separated. Like, there's only one person that tells Tahar I'm not talking to, it's you. There's only one person I have to sort of avoid. You're the most special person that tells Tahar I can't look at you, can't talk to you. Wow, this is really getting intense. So that becomes a reason for the relationship was, it does sometimes. So it goes back and forth, back and forth around this. So I think it's better just to say, if you want to get involved in a relationship, you tell me how that's going to benefit all beings. Okay? Then you don't have to carry this thing around, I'm celibate. You're just a human being like everybody else. You've got no agenda whatsoever. And if something arises, you discuss it with your teacher and see if it would be good. And if so, of course what sometimes happens is they forget to talk to their teacher.

[57:08]

Yes? My understanding from various people I've spoken to is that brahmacharya is not the same thing as meaning when you say celibacy. For instance, brahmacharya for married people who want to have children is that you have sex at the appropriate time. So some people feel brahmacharya doesn't necessarily, you could be non-celibate. It's a cultural thing. Yeah. And brahmacharya for months, I mean, the vinaya was developed in a particular situation for months, not for marriage. So, according to that, brahmacharya, you could practice brahmacharya and be married and have children. It's just that the sexual relationship would have to be appropriate. And brahmacharya includes not having, usually in that culture, brahmacharya meant not to have sex with somebody you weren't married to. It means a lot of things.

[58:14]

Like, even today, people will cast a horoscope and really plot very carefully to find out the appropriate day for conceiving a child. And that's part of Brahmacharya? That's the day. That's the day. That's it. That's the day. And then, if that doesn't work, then they do that whole process again. So these are various things that a Buddha doesn't get involved in. I'm not saying there weren't. I just didn't know of so many, and I wanted to find out every possible instance of Buddha touching someone.

[59:17]

I found out that Buddha touched people. Yeah. I haven't heard very many, so here's the ones I found out about. He touched people and animals. In one case he found this sick monk and he picked the monk up. I think he got the monk's head and Ananda picked the monk's feet up and they lifted him up out of his terrible situation he was in. Lifted him up on the bed. I don't know if he actually, I think he helped Ananda clean the monk. So he touched that. Right. So he was taking care of this monk. In another case, he touched a sick elephant. I found. And I also have cases where he sprayed people. He put water in his mouth and sprayed them. That's the kind of Indian medicine thing where the doctor puts... something in the mouth, and you make an aspirant out of it.

[60:20]

He did that on some occasions. So I don't know of other cases where he touched people. I think he might have, for example, we don't know, but he might have touched the head of some of his disciples as a passing on kind of transmission. He might have done that. But I don't know of a story like that. So I'd just like to know of those cases where the Buddha touched people. I don't know of any cases where the Buddha laughed, a belly laugh, which is one of the things why I was attracted by Zen more than by the Buddha, because Zen teachers seem to laugh more. It seems to be in these heavy times, since things are so much heavier, we have to have a little bit more active laughing going on. But in the Buddha's time, a subtle smile seemed to be sufficient. But now I think we need more humor.

[61:26]

As many of you know, when I give talks, sometimes people laugh. I don't mean to be funny, but people think I'm funny. And after the talks, people say, I really like your humor. Sometimes they like the talks, but mostly they like the humor in the songs. Because they're about non-attachment. They're about, you know, let go. Aren't they? You can let go and have love and warmheartedness? Yes. As a matter of fact, attachment constricts your love. When you let go, your love gets bigger, flows more smoothly. Rather than being through this narrow conduit, it opens out, you know. I know a teacher who loved his students, but just couldn't find a way to respond to them.

[62:43]

Couldn't express his love, and he really felt a lot of pain about not being able to find a way. Because he was trying to control. He just didn't know how to let it go. Because he just couldn't understand, you know. There was a kind of cultural interface where according to, you know. And it was good that he, you know, he didn't make a mistake. But he couldn't, he was in pain because he couldn't find a way to relate to what was being presented to him. So those are difficult situations. How to be careful and loving and and yet not be holding on to some idea of how that should go. Difficult. Yes? Can you define loyalty versus attraction? Loyalty? It seems to me loyalty has something to do with, I think, some understanding about what loyalty means, you know?

[63:51]

So... so you know I think loyalty has to do with once you understand what another person would consider to be loyal or what they expect of you or what they think you're up to if you were loyal you would follow through on that until you made some adjustment in their expectations of you so you may sense that some people think you're behaving in such and such a way. And you're loyal to them means you act that way when they're not around or when they are around too. You act that way and you don't go against that way unless you would go and talk to them and say, I'm not going to be that way anymore. So if you felt like your children were expecting you not to be a communist or something, and you know that's what they expect of you, you wouldn't join the Communist Party without talking to them about it beforehand, because you're loyal to them.

[65:05]

You just wouldn't do it. Or if you felt like you had to do it, you'd go and talk to them and you'd say, you know, I'm loyal to you. I haven't been in the Communist Party, but I want to join. And since I'm loyal to you, I come and talk to you about that beforehand. And they might say, okay, mom. So then you join. But you're loyal to them. Or you may feel like people expect something of you, you know, like they don't expect you to, you know, I don't know what, take drugs or something. But they assume, you know they assume you're not going to do that. And out of loyalty, even if you think it might be all right, you don't do it because you think, you know, they expect that of you. Unless you would go to them and say, you know, I want to do this. I think I want to take some drugs. So your loyalty is you keep in touch with them.

[66:09]

You honor them that way. You're lined up with them. Or if someone assumed that you're not having sexual relationship with somebody else. Your loyalty to them means you don't do that unless you would talk to them about it. These kinds of things I would say are loyalty. I don't know what it says in the dictionary, but that's kind of what I feel is loyalty is. I think loyalty is very close to honesty and connected with commitment. Loyalty, commitment versus attachment. For example, if you're in a long-term relationship. Yes. There's a lot of loyalty involved in that, in commitment. There could be. But then that starts bordering on attachment, doesn't it?

[67:11]

How so? Well, you may think you're being loyal to the relationship. Yes. but perhaps there is an element of attachment there. But I don't understand why there couldn't be... I don't see where the attachment comes in. When you're loyal to somebody, I don't see why you'd necessarily be attached to them. It seems optional to me. So you think it's one or the other? I mean, they're not related. I don't see them as necessarily related. I think you can put attachment onto any kind of relationship. You can be disloyal to somebody and be totally attached to them. Like some spouses are disloyal to their spouse and totally attached. Like some men are disloyal to their wives and yet they really attach to their wife, not being disloyal to them. And they don't want to lose their wife. They want to have their wife all to themselves, and they also are disloyal to her.

[68:16]

And some women are that way with their husbands. Not as common, but... So you could be disloyal and attached, and I think you can be loyal and not attached. You could be totally committed to your spouse, to your mother, to your children, and not attached to them. Buddha is loyal to us. If Buddha changed the Dharma, Buddha would consult with us beforehand, would let us know, I'm changing the rules. Because you people would assume that I would let you know before I changed it. I found out that, you know, that life isn't suffering after all. You'd be the first to know. Okay? They can overlap, but they don't have to. You don't have to... If you practice non-attachment... I think you will be loyal to all beings but your loyalty will be different for beings you don't know because you know you don't exactly know what to be loyal to them so you're loyal in the sense of given that there's no expectations or understandings between you you're loyal in the sense of being devoted to them so I think non-attachment goes with being devoted to all beings so in that sense you're loyal but when you have a particular commitment to someone and a particular understanding then you're loyal to that you stand behind that

[69:39]

But there doesn't have to be attachment. Yes? It's kind of like that. It's not necessarily others before yourself. It might be others simultaneously with yourself. You might feel loyalty is good for you. It could, but again, it could be confused with attachment, which, as you say, is self-serving. Now again, some people would like us to be attached, but it isn't really for their good that we go along with their interest in us being attached to them. It's for us. It's not good for them, really. Like some people would like us to hurt them. They say, yeah, go ahead, please hurt me. It's still not good to do it, even though they ask you to do it.

[70:46]

They're confused. So if you hurt them, it's just because you're confused too. It isn't good for them. But loyalty, I think, is something you can feel for someone even if you don't let them know that you're doing it. Some people are loyal to you that haven't even told you they are. They just are. Like Razi is loyal to various people. But she didn't make a big deal of it. She just is. She's got quite a strong loyalty streak that she can spread around. She can be loyal to lots of people. But she's not loyal to everybody. But it's her thing that she's, you know, dogs have kind of the ability to be loyal And people do too. Some people really have a strong loyalty ability.

[71:52]

But the most important thing is non-attachment. That's the best. It's really the best. Yes? I think I'm having trouble with semantics. OK. To me, and maybe just culturally, the word attachment is not a negative word, whereas the word non-attachment and detachment has the connotation, especially detachment, which is pretty much the same as non-attachment, has the connotation of not caring. Uh-huh. So that's where my struggle is, particularly in your family. I understand that the attachment that you're speaking of is bad for the person who's attached and bad for the person that's attached to it because it's unhealthy. Is there another synonym for the word attachment? Clinging? Is that also bad? It has a bad connotation as far as I'm concerned.

[73:02]

I can deal with that a lot better. Go ahead. Practice non-clinging. Perfectly good. The best thing is non-clinging. Yes. Yes. In Luke 38, loyalty and commitment can be self-deceiving. What I've noticed with my parents is that they can be committed or loyal to an idea of how things are, but it's not necessarily the reality. So in essence, that loyalty and commitment is misguided. So in turn, it becomes an attachment because really it's a steadfast commitment or commitment. steadfast loyalty to an illusion of how things are not really the way things are, which could cause me, perhaps, to lie, to protect in some few way that loyalty or that sense of illusion. So, in a way, you can be really committed to an illusion, and that might, that could hurt you, even if it's really just an illusion.

[74:10]

Committed. Committed to an illusion, did you say? Like what? Like if you're thinking parents and children, you sort of create roles of how you think your children are, and you're committed to your children because you think they're fulfilling some sort of role or idea. It's like an attachment. It's almost like a commitment that springs from an idea about it. I didn't hear what the commitment was, though. What's the commitment? The commitment is just giving them support or being committed to that relationship. You're committed to the relationship, you say? Yeah. So how would committed to the relationship be harmful? Because you might be committed, maybe if you're not a parent and child, but maybe you have two lovers, they can be committed to an idea of how they think it is, of what this relationship is, rather than seeing it for what it might look like to you. So you can be committed to some idea of the relationship. Yeah.

[75:18]

And then you might think that committed to the idea of the relationship is committed to the relationship. Yeah. So that would be a delusion. That would be a mistake. So don't commit to your idea of a relationship. Commit to the relationship. Because the relationship won't be the idea you have of it. So part of commitment to a relationship is that as the relationship changes all the time and stops being your idea of it, you stay with the relationship. You keep working on it, even though it's doing all this unpredictable, unmanageable, out-of-control stuff. You're still devoted to the other person and to taking care of the relationship. Okay? Be devoted to what you can't control which is all sentient beings.

[76:18]

Can't control life, be devoted to life. But again, the word devotion means ardent attachment. So, got to be careful of that word. Anything else today? Okay, well, tomorrow maybe we'll start studying the next sutra about the middle way, which is the philosophical middle way, which brings up another aspect of what the middle way can be. Maybe we should cover politics today, too.

[77:24]

Get that over with. Anybody have any political attachments yet?

[77:27]

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