where it's not the truth, that it's really the way things are. And Brooks said something about, well, sometimes he knows there's suffering, but other times he's not sure there is any, right? And one of the simple discussions of this is in this book, What the Buddha Taught, also in the Abhidharmakosha, in Chapter 6, there are three kinds of suffering, okay, I like to say it in Sanskrit. First one's called the suffering of suffering, dukkha-dukkha. Second kind of suffering is called, in the Abhidharmakosha they call it the suffering of suffering. No, the first one's called suffering of suffering, dukkha-dukkha. The second one's called the suffering of pleasure, sukha-dukkha. Sukha means pleasure, sukha's pleasure or sweet, and dukkha's frustration or something's

[01:03]

off. This second kind of thing is also called the parinama-dukkha, the parinama being separated from something, so it's the dukkha that's being separated from pleasure, sukha-dukkha. You know that kind, right? Being separated from something you like, right? Like warmth, food, help, your friends, so on, right? You know that kind? Yes? Yeah. That kind's familiar. When that's happening you know they're suffering, right? And when we have just regular old pain and misery of being, you know, so on, does everybody know that, not so much maturing, but as your body gets old and starts to rot, do you know

[02:05]

that that's unpleasant? Teeth rot and, you know, heart not working very well anymore, stuff like that. This is called the pain of growing old, of aging. Now, dying is also painful, but also being born is painful, do you know about that? Yeah, well, it's difficult anyway. Difficult means painful. I was sitting by the bed of Kadagiri Roshi as he was dying and I was sitting next to his wife and she whispered to me, you know, she said, sitting here now, and I just remembered that just a few weeks ago our first grandson was born, and she said, I realize now that being born is painful and difficult, like this. For the person who's being born it's just as hard as dying, she said, but the people who are watching feel differently, because when the baby's born we get something, but

[03:07]

when our husband dies we lose something, so we feel different about death, who are watching. But those who are going through it have a hard time with both of them, plus the time between those two we have a hard time too. Now the third type of suffering is the most difficult to understand, and it's called samskara dukkha. The dukkha, samskara means things that are made, you know, things that depend on the The dukkha, the suffering that comes from just the fact that we're conditioned, but what that means is it's the suffering, basically we've already talked about, it's the suffering that arises in conjunction with having five skandhas that we cling to. So if we have any idea of self we can't restrain it, because it's like if we have an idea of self it gets projected on the five skandhas and that entails suffering, but that's rather subtle and hard to understand. It's called samskara dukkha, or suffering of being made or of being created, or conditionality.

[04:18]

It's the third, there's three types, dukkha-dukkha, sukha-dukkha and samskara-dukkha, that's the second one. The dukkha of sukha is that when you're having pleasure there's something wrong, even when you have pleasure. What's wrong? You might lose it, you might lose it. Then there's also the dukkha of sukha is when you don't have pleasure, pleasure is taken away from you, that's another way. So when you have it something's wrong because you might lose it, but also not only might you lose it but you're not even enjoying it because you're thinking of how long it's going to last. Or how to get more. Yeah, you're taking it in and as you're taking it in you're wondering, how can I get more? So then you feel bad because you're not even getting what you're having. As soon as you start to experience pleasure you're immediately thinking, how can we do this again? Let's try this again. What happened to that one? Try it again. Something's wrong. This is the pain of when pleasure is happening, then when it's gone we have a problem with

[05:19]

it too. That's the second kind, so it's called parinama dukkha or sukha-dukkha. Two names for the same subtle nauseation. The first one is the heavy-duty, you know, just hard-going of getting pushed out of shape all the time by cold and heat and insects and birth and death and aging and all that sickness. Yes? Huh? That's just conditional. Third one, the third one? The first one. No, that's from actually experiencing direct physical and mental sensation of pain. It's the pain of feeling pain. Direct negative pain and then feeling pain about the pain, rather than accepting the pain and being enlightened upon the pain. In the traditional story of the Buddhist path, usually the time of awakening happens when

[06:20]

the monk is meditating on pain. Awakening happens on pain, usually first. So you don't have to have dukkha-dukkha, you can have nirvana-dukkha, if you practice. That's just the third and fourth truths. The conditionality one is the third one, which comes from the fact of, in the sutra where it says, birth is suffering, aging is suffering, lamentation is suffering, despair is suffering, grief is suffering, death is suffering, being separated from what you want is suffering, being put close together with what you don't want is suffering, those are the first two types. And it says, in brief, at the end, in brief, clinging to the five aggregates is suffering. Now, we do that constantly, we do not miss a beat at that, except, you know, something goes wrong with us, we're constantly holding a self, so we're constantly suffering because

[07:25]

of that, we're constantly feeling anxiety because of that, we're constantly anxious about that, constantly. However, we have learned, as I was discussing with Anne yesterday, we learn from an early age to, you know, cool it on that one, you know? Don't cry about the fact of just, you know, being in pain about having a self. You can cry about, you know, for a while, you can cry about it, you fall and cut your knee, you can cry. And then you're supposed to, after you get attention, you're supposed to stop. After it's addressed, you're supposed to stop. So, diaper rash, okay, you know, being hungry, okay, being overheated or being too hot, you know, turning red or turning purple, it's okay, cry at those times, that's fine. But once it's fixed, stop. You know, putting the kid's shoes on and putting the dress on to go to school and they're crying, you know, what's the problem? Stop the crying. I'm suffering, what's the reason? Well, I don't know. Well, you know, keep it to yourself.

[08:27]

We've all got problems. So we basically learn we're not going to get much sympathy for this kind of like third kind of suffering for most people, because they also didn't get sympathy for it, so they're in denial about it too. So basically, we keep this anxiety pain suppressed because otherwise we'd be crying all the time. Yeah. Yeah. Right. And then the people who love us would say, well, what's the matter, what's the matter? Well, I just, you know, something's off and I think it's because I'm clinging to my five aggregates. Well, couldn't you just have a little sign that that's what it's about so I don't have to worry every time you do this? Well, we don't know how to tell them that, right? Because they didn't teach us either because they weren't taught. So this ignorance is such that we basically tell each other, deny that you're in this kind of pain, keep it to yourself, don't talk about it, and therefore we lose touch with it. So when these other two go away, you think, well, I don't know what they're talking about suffering. But it's there all the time. We're all the time we're worried, all the time, all the time.

[09:31]

Every person you look at, like I told you about this before, every faith you meet, you watch carefully. Are they going to kill me? Are they going to dislike me? Are they going to love me? Are they going to give me a banana? We are so highly attuned to watch each person's face and we can tell in a minute whether we're safe and then we look again because they might change. We're always watching the faces of all humans that we meet to see if we're safe because we're worried about this. But it isn't that when they smile that we feel permanently relieved, it's just that for that moment that, oh, you know, the threat's gone. But as soon as a little slight wrinkle comes back in the eye, we think, oh. We're constantly watching for whether we're being approved, loved, supported, or not even approved, loved, and supported, but assaulted. Human beings used to ravage each other all the time. People on different hillsides used to run down and attack the other ones and steal their women and children and run away with them. People used to do that. Yeah, they used to do that. Yeah, they used to do that.

[10:32]

Are they still doing that? Yeah. So there's still some usefulness in being able to spot whether somebody is a friend or enemy by looking at their face. Mainly. It's hard to tell by their back. Anybody noticed? But the face. We're highly attuned to be able to look into the eyes and see, is this person a rat or not? Is this person a lover or a hater? We're always concerned with this. And this is annoying to have to watch this all the time, especially if it's annoying when the face starts to shift over to disapproval, and if it's the face of a powerful person, it's very scary. Right? So, since it's so miserable and so on and so forth, and since we're not supposed to show how upset we are, we actually don't notice it too much. But basically, you know, Brooks, you're a total wreck, you know? And you're in denial about it too. But don't worry, you know, Buddha was just like you.

[11:35]

And that's the third truth. The third truth is Buddha was just like you, and Buddha became completely free of this problem. However, Buddha did not become, well, even Buddha became also free of the first two types of suffering too, but they kept happening. The first two kinds of suffering, you know, the suffering that happens when you get extremely cold or extremely hot, that one, that kind of pain, that will keep happening to your body as long as it's alive. But you can become free of that too, but it isn't that it doesn't happen. The other kind also, in some sense, you can become free of, but maybe it keeps happening. You can still have an ego, which causes suffering, and you can become free of it even though it's still happening. But the Buddha actually got to a place where that kind didn't even happen anymore. That was like totally gone. That he was transformed, in some sense, so that he didn't have to deal with that one

[12:37]

anymore. But he still had to deal with pain. He still had back pain and stuff. And when he was sick, he still had a hard time walking and so on. But he was free while he had those things. Okay? That's the proposal. Buddha was just like us. Not only was he kind of like neurotic and spiritually off base for many, many lifetimes, but he also had physical problems like us too. Actually, he had back problems. I didn't hear that he had any knee problems, but Suzuki Roshi had knee problems. So, part of the Four Noble Truths is, well, what? Eightfold Path, right? Heard of that? Another version is 37 Wings of Enlightenment. Heard of that one? Anyway, part of the Eightfold Path is mindfulness.

[13:38]

So, mindfulness. There's four basic traditional kinds of mindfulness. Mindfulness of body is the first one. Mindfulness of feelings is the second one. Mindfulness of general state of consciousness is the third one. And mindfulness of dharma is the fourth type. Okay? Under mindfulness of dharma come teachings about the Five Skandhas, so you can learn how to see them, and also the Four Noble Truths are under the fourth category. And the first Noble Truth is suffering, and it has these three types. Okay? The third type, which is rather subtle, you're studying under the fourth foundation of mindfulness. So, first of all, you become mindful of your body. And you people are doing that, right? You go in zendo, you're kind of mindful of your body. You're working on your posture. Some people tell me that mainly what they're doing during zazen is they're constantly working on their posture.

[14:43]

Posture, posture, posture. That's the foundation of mindfulness on the body. Mindfulness also includes mindfulness of the breath. That's the grossest one. That's the easiest kind of mindfulness to practice outside the body. That's the first one. It includes all the other ones, but it's just the first. The second one is mindfulness of feelings, like positive, negative, and neutral sensations, both emotional and physical. As you develop your mindfulness of your body and mindfulness of your feelings, then it will be easier for you to notice this third kind of suffering. So, the mindfulness practice will help you identify this suffering and to see whether it really is universal as long as there's clinging or self-belief. And then when you get to the fourth stage of mindfulness, you're ready for this more subtle work, which you prepared by doing the first three types of mindfulness. So you have a chance then to actually verify that there's this kind of suffering,

[15:45]

dukkha-dukkha, sukha-dukkha, and samskara-dukkha. You can actually see that may be kind. By sitting and meditating on your body and becoming more aware of your feelings, you start to open up and become, as someone said, raw. You start to trust that you can feel. It's okay to feel what you feel. And you start to feel this anxiety and pain, which is there all the time. It's the background of these more gross forms of... the easy-to-understand forms of suffering. I'm pausing now, okay, to just let that settle. And I will open to questions for a little while now, but I want to tell you that I want to move next to look at this kind of dizzying...

[16:50]

I'm going to say that which may be sort of dizzying, and it is to look at how we look at the Four Noble Truths, which are looking at how we suffer. Okay? And I am delighted and encouraged by your response to bring up the question of the truth of the Four Truths. I had no idea how enlivening this discussion of truth would be, the truth of the truths. But it has turned into another kind of like... what do you call it? Fertile field for understanding our processes. So I'd like to get into that. And I'm going to say that before I open to questions now, because I might get lost in the dust.

[17:51]

Okay? Roberta? I heard you state earlier on, and I think you've stated this before, that actually Buddha's teaching was not that life itself is inherently suffering, but that our whole being are clinging to life. Right. And, see, when I heard that, that felt like a big relief to me. Because I always feel like when I hear the statement that life is suffering, I feel like it's a violation in a way because I feel like, how can I say what life is? You know, in the moment of life, there's such an immense amount going on, that I feel like it's just taking a bulldozer and, you know, just... Yeah, a bulldozer or what do you call it? Shackles? Smothering it. Yeah. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. So another way to say it is that when you mess with life, when you try to categorize it or contain it or say what it is, even saying what it is, is again a projection of belief in self.

[18:54]

Yeah, yeah. And that's a violation of life and it hurts, fortunately, when we do that. So it's good that it hurts because it says, it's good to know, what am I hurting about? And the message that comes back from your Buddha nature is, well, what you're hurting about is you're messing with your Buddha nature, which is your life. You're un-messed with, you know, un-manipulated, inconceivable, radiant life. So life isn't suffering, life is incredibly, inconceivably wonderful, but for most of us, every moment, since we're messing with it all the time, there's a suffering. Okay, yeah, I just appreciate that clarification because otherwise, you know, looking back on my life, there are times when I might have said that I was happy, you know, or it looked like things were going great because I was clean, or my sense of self was so present, I was pretty anxious a lot. But, you know, there have also been many times where,

[19:57]

you know, things were externally really terrible, but I would just reach a point where I would just totally give up, you know, surrender, and to have found in the middle of all these, you know, painful experiences in life, that when I look back at it, sometimes there was some kind of joy there, which I can't even describe, you know, or something indescribable, because I think that at that time I just gave up, you know. I've also had a few moments, and they didn't last, where it just felt like my suffering disappeared because I think my sense of separateness disappeared. So I can't go back in my life and say that every single second of it, you know, that there was suffering for us, and I can say that it was present a lot of the time. You know, I can't fix it that way. You can't fix what? I can't fix my life that way. You say life is suffering. Oh, no, this is not really a statement about life. This is saying life, under these circumstances, is suffering. And these circumstances are ongoing.

[20:57]

So, basically, some people can say, I have been suffering non-stop this whole lifetime. There's never been a... This is a pretty enlightened person that can say that, but anyway, some people say, I was suffering non-stop until this moment. I finally just dropped the whole thing, and now I'm not suffering anymore. Okay. So, ready to do this kind of like somewhat dizzying, but I think perhaps hopefully helpful thing. So now, in this process, I might be able to bring up just a little bit of these three different ways of looking at truth. But I guess the dizzying thing is it's kind of like a circle around a circle. So you have four noble truths, okay? And then you look at them, and then the four noble truths are about, I mean, the fundamental, the key issue here, the four noble truths are about how believing in self entails suffering.

[22:01]

That's part of what they're about. Okay? And there is the... And they're also partly about to say that believing in self is a kind of endemic thing in our blood. Or it's like in the continuity of our consciousness, there's a... Coming right along with our consciousness is a belief in self riding right on top of it. That's the second truth in a way. And then that's the cause or the condition for the first, which you can see if you understand the second, that the first will be for most people, not universal. I mean, it will be universal among people, among sentient beings that have any kind of sense of self that they believe in, this will be universal among those among those sentient beings. Those ignorant sentient beings,

[23:02]

this will be the state of affairs. And these ignorant beings are the people that Buddhism is concerned to help. That's the second and the first truth. And usually, as you may have read some places, usually we talk about condition or cause and then result. But in this case we talk about result and then cause. And the reason that they give for that when they ask, what's the reason for this order? Is that it's easier to comprehend in that order. It's harder to comprehend, actually, the subtleties of this belief in self and so on. So it's easier to start to comprehend through the suffering and then go to the second one. And then the next part, which you know, is the third truth is another effect, that there is an effect or there is a result or there is a possibility that can be realized of perfect freedom and happiness. And then the first,

[24:03]

the fourth truth is that there actually is a path of practice which is the realization of nirvana. Or like Jeremy remembers me saying that nirvana is the mode of study or the mode of study is nirvana. Is that what you thought he said? Yeah, he said the mode of study is nirvana. Yeah. So the mode of study is the eightfold path. That's the way we study. And that is nirvana, actually. But sometimes they say that is the cause of nirvana. In dualistic terms is the cause but in actuality it is, the actual practice is the nirvana. When you are in that mode of study, when you live a life where you are in the mode of study, where you like got suffering, what do you do with it? You study, that's nirvana. Give Buddha a little, give Buddha a sentient being, a suffering, Buddha is compassionate, that's study. Buddha studies the situation, studies her own suffering, studies other suffering. That mode of studying suffering, that mode of studying the conditions for suffering,

[25:05]

that is nirvana. That's what Dogen would say. And Buddha didn't put it that way because the people weren't sophisticated enough to handle non-duality right off. So he said, that leaves, he said it's the path leading to nirvana. It's true, but actually it is not leading anywhere, it's the path leading to itself. Because practice is nirvana. Buddha's practice is nirvana. There's not another practice for living people. Okay, those four noble truths, one more time, right? so then, so, the pivotal thing then is this, is this, is up in the center here, is how do you relate to your psychophysical existence? You got a psychophysical existence? You got a psychophysical existence? You do. Right? I do. Is that right? Yes. Yeah. How do you relate to it? If you, if you relate to it in the mode of study, if you study it, if you study, study, study, then we have nirvana. Okay? Everybody got that?

[26:06]

Okay? If you don't study it, but rather like grasp it, try to buy and sell it, try to own it, categorize it, do anything with it other than study, then, it's, then, the psychophysical situation dealt with in that way. And I would say dealt with that way compulsively rather than, you know, voluntary, you know, self-inflicted suffering of grasping, which a Buddha might do, to sort of, to demonstrate the dharma of suffering. But this involuntary, habitual, ignorant grasping is suffering. Okay? That's the way of relating to the psychophysical situation. Okay? How are you doing, darling? Good. Okay, now here comes the next one. Now we look at the Four Noble Truths. What are the Four Noble Truths when we look at them? What are they? When we look at them, when we talk about them, what are they? Dharmas. What? Dharmas. They're dharmas, yeah. What do you say? Ideas. They're ideas, yeah. And so when we look at, when we look at ideas, when we, are we perceiving them? Hmm? We're talking about the Four Noble Truths,

[27:11]

are we perceiving, are we hearing about the Four Noble Truths, perceiving them? So what's happening? Five Skandhas, right? All right? As soon as we talk about the Four Noble Truths, we got an idea, which is, which is an object of consciousness, but we don't just have consciousness. Of course, consciousness arises with its object, the ideas. Also, there's a feeling. Some people have a feeling, Oh, goody, the Four Noble Truths. We're going to talk about that some more. Other people go, Oh, God, no, no. Other people say, I don't care. Also, you hear about them. You hear, Oh, no, no, no, Four Noble Truths. You hear that. That's when you got to hear, you know, you got to hear, you go, eee. Five Skandhas. You can't have one Skandha. All five come up. As soon as you hear anybody talking about Four Noble Truths, or six, you know, lousy truths, or Leslie Matthews, as soon as you hear that, five Skandhas. Boom. There's never any, like, Leslie Matthews without five Skandhas for any of us, including her. Right? You understand that? So, Four Noble Truths, what happens? Five Skandhas out here. Looking at the Four Noble Truths. Now, if you have five Skandhas, if you have five Skandhas,

[28:13]

guess what you have? You have feeling, right? Feeling is judgment. Right? You always have judgment. You always have judgment. You always have, like, good or bad. And also, you always have, although it's not always obvious to you, you don't know about it, you always got a right-wrong thing in here. You always got a true-false. You know, like, so I'm walking along and somebody brings Stephen in, says, here's Stephen. Yeah, yeah. Okay, that is truly Stephen, you know. Or then a few minutes later, they bring in a fake Stephen. I go, hmm, that's not Stephen. No, that's not Stephen. No. Yes, it really is me. I grew old and I grew up, you know, I cut my beard off and, you know, I got fat. It really is. I'm Stephen. Really? I don't believe it. Let's talk to me a little bit. No, you're not Stephen. Yes, I am. Remember when we did this and that together? That's not enough. Okay, it's true, you are Stephen. We're always into that. We never meet somebody we don't meet somebody

[29:14]

that we don't try to figure out whether we know him or not. Do we? You meet somebody you never met before you think you never met them before and you think that's true and you can be talked out of it and they say, yeah, I used to be your old friend back in fourth grade. You know, really? You know, tell me about it and then blah, So then you start to doubt but you, so far anyway, you don't think you know this person and then gradually, suddenly, boom, you believe you do and then the world changes because you think it's true that you knew him before. When your mind says this is true it becomes a different world which can be switched back but you know, when it switches back it's going to be another world. We're into this. Having five skandhas we have this thing about truth operating on what we see. Now, we look at the four noble truths and we do, we think they're true or we don't. Now you can say, well, what if you're not really sure? Well, maybe there's future lives or maybe there could be. Well, then you don't think it's true, do you? You think maybe it's true

[30:17]

and maybe it's false. So, your true-false thing is operating. You just haven't come up with yes, it is true or no, it is false. But the true-false thing is operating on these truths. All right? That means this person, when we study the four noble truths, what I'm so excited about and so delighted about is that presenting the four noble truths and then bringing up are they true, I bring up, you're pointed back now at the very process what they're talking about. You're pointed back at your own processes now. You see? Do you, does this Vaiskandha think that's true? How is this Vaiskandha thinking about this? And this throws people into this which then starts to make them suffer. I mean, become aware of suffering. Become aware of suffering. Not start suffering but become aware of it because you're not looking over there, Vaiskandha, what are they? Oh yeah, that's nice, that's... So, some people said,

[31:19]

you know, what are you going to teach this fall? And I said, four noble truths. Some people said, oh good, that's simple. I didn't know how rich it was going to be. I thought, yeah, it's simple. This keeps... This is very helpful to me, this thing about looking at the truth of the truths because it has thrown many people back into experiencing what do they think is true? Which means they start looking at how they operate. They start to be aware of how you're judging and this true-false thing which we're usually not that conscious of and that's part of our lack of consciousness of what's going on here usually. So the thing is that when you start looking back at how you determine truth which you're not very aware of, you start to notice a bunch of other stuff like that you usually don't pay attention to like that you're suffering because of having a self. The nice thing about opening one door of a place we don't usually look is you get to see a whole bunch of other stuff. That's the great thing about this so far. It's opened up all this stuff so that's kind of dizzying

[32:20]

I thought, to do the thing on the thing on the thing which also sends you back. But that's what I've been observing that's what I think is really wonderful about what's been happening in this study. Because for me the word truth is kind of cold word. It's cold, philosophical kind of up in the head. But actually although that's the case I think that's partly because I'm in denial about how important truth is to me. Because it's too painful to be aware of what you think is true. Not too painful. Not too painful. It just could be painful. And partly painful because if you don't think anything is true then maybe you also don't think anything is false. So then you can get along with everybody, right? Because everybody's equally sort of like I don't know which. But if you decide, for example, this is the true path of Buddhism what about the people who aren't practicing that way? We don't want to have a fight within Zen Center about this, do we? I'm sorry. You're always recommending

[33:20]

not being prejudiced. what happens when we're not trying not to be prejudiced? What happens when you're not prejudiced? What happens when you're trying not to be prejudiced? Frustration. How about being unprejudiced? Being unprejudiced? Being unprejudiced would mean that if you're prejudiced you would study it. Being unprejudiced is nirvana. For a human being to be unprejudiced is nirvana. Because, again, being unprejudiced means that whatever happens you study it. You wouldn't just study well, I'll study Buddhism but I'm not going to study Taoism. If somebody puts Taoism in your face or Steven in your face you study it. Being unprejudiced means you study whatever is happening. Including your prejudices. Like, again, Suzuki Roshi says non-discrimination does not mean that you don't discriminate. It means that you study everything. Including, of course,

[34:22]

discrimination. You study. By studying your discrimination you will realize non-discrimination. By studying your prejudices you will realize an unprejudiced heart. Okay? So, being unprejudiced is fabulous and a lot of us were attracted to Zen because of stories. I was attracted to Zen because of stories of people who demonstrated under pressure being unprejudiced. It wasn't like demonstrating whatever way, man. It was like unprejudiced when you have a prejudice. Like, somebody's got a knife to your face or you're spitting in your face or is insulting your face. In that situation when it's like study rather than you have a preference. You have a prejudice. Your prejudice is I think this person is insulting me. That's your prejudice. That's your prejudgment. You didn't say you don't say

[35:23]

when you spit in my face was that, you know did you intend that as an insult or anything? Now, before you check with them before you check also, if they spit like, you know, with a kind of before even checking to see how they feel about you you prejudge it real fast. This is an insult. That's prejudice, right? Now, of course, if they go that's a little harder to judge. But you still prejudge it. You still prejudge it. You still go I think that was kind of affectionate. You can't help but prejudge. We're not going to wait. We're not going to wait till further discussion to find out what's happening. We can't afford that, can we? So we prejudge everything. Then you say what did you mean by that spittle? Then we find out sometimes we're right in our prejudgment. But we prejudge everything. Everything that happens we prejudge. In other words, we judge it right away before we get any further information. That's prejudice. Right? That's disrespect. Right? You have a view of something that's it, that's it.

[36:24]

You take it right away. We can't afford we don't feel we don't feel because we're self-centered we don't feel that we have any room to wait for that kind of stuff. So we right away judge it and then later you may say okay, now I've judged it now let's see what did you mean by that? A lot of people never ask. They just go on it. it's a little bit more enlightening to check because then you find out oh, that was a prejudice that just unmanifested there. When I was a little kid I went to the YMCA on Saturdays for a while and there was various activities which I was supposed to participate in but before the activities happened I was thrown into a room of boys who were bigger than me and so they did that big boy to little boy thing and I was trying to play cool you know and they came over and I think they did something like you know some boy thing with me trying to play cool taking my cue stick

[37:25]

away from me or whatever and this big black kid came over and said you know leave him alone and I really appreciated that but I remember that he was black and he protected me from all those big white boys because I didn't expect if he had been if he had been a white guy I would have said oh, nice white guy but he was a black guy and I said hmm, black guy protecting white guy from white guy I noticed that I had a prejudice that black guy wouldn't protect me from white guys I had that prejudice it surprised me I never forgot it that's a prejudice that was I was prejudiced but the event showed me my prejudice and loosened it a little bit but how did it loosen it? by pointing it out to me the event showed me my prejudice it wasn't it was partly that a black person was kind to me so kindness is a key ingredient in surfacing our prejudices sometimes if a kind person comes into our midst oftentimes

[38:25]

in the presence of a kind person we feel safe enough to look and recognize that we're prejudiced but the recognition of the prejudice is the key thing in the process of liberation from prejudice so that always you know that changed my relationship with black people with black men and then on I asserted I thought these people can for no reason at all be kind to me protect me you know well I shouldn't say for no reason but these people can unexpectedly protect me and be kind to me these big black people and then it's interesting another time right around the recent central LA riots I was driving around San Francisco you know and I didn't I wasn't sort of into the fact that sort of like San Francisco was kind of like in kind of like a contact high with that black people in San Francisco got excited about that right and started to act out a little bit too in some places so I was driving by this project that has a lot of black people in it and these boys

[39:26]

came running out of the project you know first of all I never even occurred to me not to drive by the project just because of the riots were going on in central LA it didn't occur to me I didn't think oh projects black people you know I wasn't thinking that way I was driving down the street black people the kids came running out and I thought oh little black kids coming up and then they threw these these little balloons full of what turned out to be water at my car and went into my window and splashed all over the inside of my car but I didn't know what it was for you know a while I was just I was sitting there to feel you know what is this is this water is it you know I didn't know what it was but there was an immediate thing of how foolish I was to drive by the place where the black people were because there was a riot of black people so and that kind of mind started shifting into protecting yourself and then prejudging situations you see for defense so then after

[40:28]

that after that I would be for days after that you know I would be driving you know and a black guy would come around the corner of his car and I would kind of watch is he going to run into me is he going to throw a rock at me because he's black you know this happens to the mind right very uncomfortable you know very uncomfortable like friendly black man walking down the street saying hi you know kind of like what's going to you know am I being naive to sort of like not be ready for you know attack you see how it works it's because of this self thing and of course some say well but there's survival value yeah right but it's still uncomfortable and even when you're not being attacked you're still worried so anyway the thing about we do do this true false thing and I think that has opened up another dimension of practice for us here oh and I was going to say was that I think a lot of Buddhists do not have strong feelings about what they think is true

[41:28]

in Buddhism and part of the reason for that is that they in a sense it makes a kind of superficial peace in Sangha we also it also makes more peace between Zen center and other religious groups if you don't have a real strong sense of what is true then you don't have to disagree with and refute people who say what you think is false so Zen center is a place where there isn't too much you know fierce Dharma combat even though we have different views of Dharma we don't really argue about it fiercely and partly because we don't want the apparent conflict I think that's part of the reason why a lot of people are afraid to actually admit what they think is true in Dharma because they are afraid of what would happen maybe they would disagree with somebody and then what would they do could we get along together if we had different understandings of the truth value of the truths not to mention things which aren't called truths and the

[42:28]

part of what I'm seeing in you which delights me is that you're seeing the dangerous consequences of actually believing in something so let's see Anne and Susan and Christina and Anna and is that it? I got your names right? Okay put your forehands on I want to say one more thing when we start to become aware of how our five skandhas is exuding or generating a truth okay the way we can interact in a way that promotes love compassion and dharma will be a way where we are aware of any prejudice or leaning that we have that if our five skandhas generates a truth we have to be upright

[43:29]

with that so we don't hurt people or push it on people or withdraw from people and make them feel like well I'm out of here for you you lost me now you have to be upright with it and just say this is what I think is true this is actually what I think is true and just put it there without pushing it or shrinking back from it and the one more thing I want to say before I answer these questions is this then brings up the word authority what is authoritative you know truth is authoritative and beings who understand truth have authority and so part of this is also about which is also surfacing now very strongly it's been going on quite before but I see a new kind of opportunity for looking at how do we relate to authority figures that's another thing that's coming up here okay so I just want to say that I want to talk about that but I'll set that aside for the

[44:29]

moment it's in waiting to be talked about while I respond to these questions I think Susan I don't know you had it Susan my question was right yes go ahead so you talked about the communal discourse yes authoritative communal discourse yes like we have dictionaries which tell us what words mean where is on this personal transmission of the dharma where is that situated are you talking the truth or the dialogue between disciple and teacher where maybe the truth is generated but maybe you want to talk about that later so what's your question how does that where is that situated what does that mean there is a subject behind the truth a subject a guarantee you know a lineage a whole lineage yes of transmission

[45:30]

that guarantees the truth guarantees the truth or it seems to imply some authority yeah the four noble truths have been transmitted by the buddhist lineage what is the authority what is the authority in this transmission that's the question which is similar to do you think it's true for example does the eightfold path actually realize nirvana and what's the authority behind that statement okay and when you go to meet something to look to see if it's got authority the fact that you're even looking there means you've already considered the possibility that there's an authority here so I think most of us give some authority to the buddhist teaching lineage and then we give some authority to the representatives the representatives about a truth and we relate

[46:30]

to this figure this authority figure and people have problems relating to authority figures which are almost the same as the way you relate to truth namely people run away from authority figures run away from the truth or push on authority figures and try to get rid of them we have when we bring ourselves to some authority something happens to us we feel anxious and that's another reason for practicing the four foundations of mindfulness because if you're practicing mindfulness then when you go to meet the image the representative of the authority of the authoritative lineage of the authoritative truth of the authoritative buddha who is authoritative because he actually was successful in waking people up by this teaching and how do we prove that and all that stuff has been discussed the buddhists have been defending themselves for two thousand

[47:31]

well not not from the moment buddha lived but for many years buddhists have been defending their their truth and refuting other truths and other people have been trying to refute buddhism and have been sometimes oftentimes unsuccessful for example there's no significant or recognizable refutation of Nagarjuna's wild behavior nobody you know and even today you know with modern philosophers coming up to try to like take a whack at him nobody is like this lodging his logic so buddhism is definitely presenting truth and defending its truth for a long time and that's part of how it establishes has established authority and part of the way it does it by argument but also part of it does by part of argument is demonstration so part of the demonstration of buddhism is tasahara the friendliness and love and kindness and carefulness

[48:31]

and healthiness and courage and patience and ability to listen and be sympathetic and to learn and to be reliable and to be honest these things are manifested in this practice place and that's part of the proof of the authority of buddhism pretty good I think I'm very happy about it however I'm pushing the envelope I'm pushing envelope to see if we like encounter like the actuality of the truth it's going to raise up some things which are going to make it raise up new pain and new issues and I think we can handle it but there is a there is a feeling hey we got a pretty good thing here we're getting along pretty well don't take any strong stand or if you do take it carefully yes I completely

[49:33]

agree I think I think what I would like everybody to do is take a strong stand carefully like you do in a zen dojo you take a strong stand there you sit in a strong position and do it carefully gently not mean cruelly roughly but feeling your body feeling your body sensing your body make the strongest position and then feeling your mind sensing your mind being gentle with it and express the strength of your convictions gently and carefully but still it's dangerous if you express this there might be a charge on it that charge is not gentle that charge is not upright so if you're not being upright and you have some idea of what things should be then you should present it then you probably shouldn't present it because it's going to blow up so then if you're not going to present it it's better not to think it's so or you know make it not so true

[50:33]

because then there will be less of a charge on it so pardon how can you make it not so if you have a feeling of truth and there's a charge how can you choosing just arbitrarily choosing alternative what sounded like your recommendation well one way you make it less so is you notice you notice that you're getting upset okay you notice you notice you're you're one way

[51:37]

best way would be just say okay I'm self-righteous [...] we got a self-righteous person here you keep thinking this is true you don't back off on your truth you just realize there's a charge on it this charge is not necessary or you're the truth is on a charge you know you deal with the charge but don't get rid of the truth that's the best way once the charge goes away then you're upright you're not leaning you don't have this truth and you're going you know you got a truth and you're also not going you just got a truth I got a truth everybody's got a truth you know that kind of thing that's the way you are so you say hey Rick you got a truth yep got one where is it there it is that's it thank you Rick okay but when you're not in that position hey Rick you got a charge yes I do and you better listen to it that that then you sort of say disqualify Rick temporarily at least but don't trash your idea just go sit in the

[52:37]

zendo and work with your charge when the charge drops then you say okay I got my truth here it is but what a lot of people do is rather than work with the charge work with the self-righteousness and their prejudice what they do is they kind of start compromising their truth which is what I thought I heard you say yeah I'm not saying to do that I'm saying that's what that's what people take as an option for example you know if I can say historically at Zen Center the abbot that preceded me Richard Baker did some things at Zen Center people had problems with it okay that was their truth I don't like that and his authority figure you don't like what the authority figure is doing so what do you do well that's enough that's fine you may be maybe you feel some discomfort with that but that's it if you get any charge on that enough charge no and if you think it's if you think it's true and you

[53:38]

maybe should do something about it that's okay too but maybe you feel some self-righteous charge on it let's not even say you feel a charge let's make it simpler you just have a truth it's difficult you don't want to talk about it because you might be in trouble so what you do is you say well maybe I'm wrong this is something that happens a lot of time with the authority figure is the person who has less power in a situation thinks well maybe I'm wrong maybe my perception is wrong so then you you say okay I'm wrong and something else comes up and you say again I'm wrong or it gets worse and you say no I was wrong last time this is probably worse too so you may push it down more that happened here I think it happened that people kept denying their truth and pushing it down [...] because it was too painful to hold it in the face of a strong authority figure if anybody had a charger on to some of this stuff which they sometimes did because of that charge sometimes they would present it but because of the charge it often didn't work to present it with the charge

[54:38]

and the thing you're criticized for is not what you even said but you're criticized for the charge sometimes people tell you stuff with a charger on you don't even hear what they say you don't even know what they said all you feel is so you fight the fierceness you don't even hear what they said so but a lot of times we do is we deny our truth in order either to free us from the charge situation or to free us from well actually even any I guess any discomfort you feel when you feel the truth when you disagree with somebody and especially somebody has authority in your life if there's any clinging there's a charge if there's any clinging to the truth at all or any clinging to your own interest even if not directly about that truth if there's any clinging the charge will arise so then what do you do get in trouble because you're going to get in trouble because you got a charge I recommend that the other option the other two options are change your

[55:42]

truth say it's not true a lot of self-preservation or practice Sazen be upright and then you can go to the authority figure and say okay here we are balanced you say this is my truth which I sensed is not what you think is that right authority figure might say no it's not right I agree with you that's the happy one here's another happy one I'm balanced this is my truth I think it's I think it's I think it's different from yours authority figure says that's right it is good for you it's not a happy one you don't compromise your truth you don't put extra weight on it because you're insecure you just present it boom that's truth without any clinging there's no suffering and also even under the pressure you don't start holding it but a lot of times we and I think

[56:43]

generally there's a general thing of I think a lot of people don't believe the four noble truths and are afraid to say that I think they think it's I think a lot of people think the four noble truths are actually wrong they don't want to say that because they might get in trouble might get kicked out of zen center some might think the four noble truths are true but they don't want to admit it because if they really saw how true they were they might disagree with some other people at zen center who don't think it are true some of their best friends they might be in severe theological conflict with so they don't push that down so that's what I'm saying that's not good it's understandable but it's not good but it happens I've seen it happen here and again when you come to authority figure particularly one like not like you don't want to be self righteous for the authority figure because the authority figure will you know probably sense that and you'll get in trouble for your self righteousness which you should get in trouble for I mean you

[57:45]

already are in trouble let's do these other questions that was good Anna this is that got into that didn't mean to but anyway Susan mine was just a response to the sort of you were saying if you have a truth and we uphold the truth and we're going to get in trouble with other groups and then you've been talking about skillful means it seems to me that having the truth is the problem it's more holding the truth holding the truth yeah manifesting the truth is manifesting the truth without holding to the truth that's the point and it's it's it's like I like I said it's like I'm doing Sean said if you hold if you have a fixed truth you get thrown into a poison see when you're in the poison see you disqualify yourself from interactions until you until you stop holding and then the sea goes smooth and then you then you then you're out in there you're out in the sea on the smooth waters you're in your boat you got your old truth say here's my truth that's it no problem people say

[58:45]

oh she's got a truth what is it oh it's you know a four noble truth well talk about it there's no charge but the Buddha had held these four noble truths even though he was he meant this this this really is the way things are he said these four noble truths this is not just for me this is not just for India this is the character this is a universal truth it really is the way things are okay for all sentient life this is true but he didn't have a charge on it apparently so people could just listen to listen to his message without having to deal with you know his self righteousness isn't isn't the whole idea of having to show your truth or present your truth to someone isn't there a little doubt in there aren't you starting to wonder is that the problem you need to convince someone else so that's that's a question which I'd like to again put in brackets or not or put on a pedestal

[59:45]

and deal with later whether or not we should present the truth to anybody okay that's a big question the Buddha had a truth which he realized he didn't have the four noble truths right away but he had a truth but he had the truth he actually realized that the way things are is nirvana he realized that and then people asked him and he didn't think about teaching it he didn't think about presenting it but he was begged to present it by an important person important being so he decided to do it but then as we say at later unfoldments of his teaching like in the lotus sutra he said you people don't want to hear this don't ask me he was just like in samadhi he was just practicing upright sitting and there was this nice halo around him these rays were shooting out from this place here he asked him

[61:08]

three times after three times he says okay okay and then five thousand people left they said oh we know what he's going to talk about he does this all the time it's going to be that same thing again he said it's okay that they left so it is questionable whether you should expound but if asked three times it's still questionable it is questionable whether you should say whether enlightened beings should express themselves or who are disciples of enlightened traditions whether they should express their opinions make statements in this world it is questionable yes there's the other side of that question if you're not totally sure Mike isn't ready to get out of here and you do have doubts should you express it to the teacher you should express your doubt I think people are often sure that they're in doubt I mean I think so

[62:09]

I think they really think it is true that they doubt I really think I'm in doubt and the teacher might say no you're not you know and then you might say yes you mean you don't know that you doubt but you do know that you're trying to get validation you might know that I would say if you don't know you're trying to get validation and if you don't know you're in doubt you don't know any of that but you do know something then it's good to show it whatever you know it's good to show now if you

[63:09]

have a charge on the situation you know that too I think the most important thing to show is the charge first and that's a lot of people do very skillfully I got a charge here's a charge okay okay thanks put the charge over there I don't know what you have to say once you admit the charge you're oftentimes quite free of it it still might be lingering but the fact that you put it out we know it's there everybody's kind of like okay we got a charge here so okay what is it I'm ready for this well this is true okay but I already know you know there's a charge so that vibe around it is the charge part and then I say oh okay we can deal with it part of this is about is that once there's a charge and there often is a charge when you meet an authority figure because authority figure evokes this self concern because if they don't approve you you could be in big trouble you could be kicked out of the community that they're an authority in whatever you know or just that they wouldn't love you

[64:09]

anymore it could be a major disaster in your life to lose the love of an authority figure like the main authority figure in your life to lose that love could be like really rough going for you so to present what you think is true endangers that endangers that love and also endangers your truth you might lose the love and also trash your truth you might have this kind of problem but even though I don't feel like stopping and I'm sorry I didn't get to your thing I kept trying to do it I'll do it tonight Gloria if you want to the first period is out then I'll go into these different ways of looking at the truth but I

[65:10]

don't want to go into a situation of turbulence like that turbulence is like anxiety concern for approval also not wanting to be in a situation where you're concerned for approval and hating to be that way all that turbulence all that you know ambivalence and all that stuff comes up when you go into some situation which has authority for you in it or might have authority and so we don't want to go in situations like that very much and I have sometimes played that role of authority figure right here in this valley and sometimes I also kind of like go when I know that the person is coming and they're going to come and relate to an authority I sometimes say you know wonder can I play that role can I like stay present and upright when they bring all that they're going to bring to meet this authority figure all this charge that I sense as they're going to bring can I stay present and open and not fall backwards or at least if I fall backwards to fall backwards and stay present with it or if I fall forward not fall on them and so on

[66:16]

can I do that I oftentimes really like I have to get really I have to really be present and ready to meet people in that situation I sometimes would not would rather not do it myself but you know I do it anyway sometimes even though I'm really if I think about it before I could be quite frightened I try not to think about it though and then I it's like swimming in the bay you know I go swimming in the bay it's cold I think about it beforehand I always think you're crazy but once I get in I never regret it and when I like when I see the priest on Monday mornings I see the priest you know these are the senior lot of senior people that are coming one after another this is our weekly meeting they're bringing their whole life there you know they're bringing their whole life and I gotta like meet each person I wonder can I do it every week I wonder can I be up for that can I meet them you know I really wonder I really want to it's frightening if I think about it and they're also coming in

[67:17]

that same way this is their presentation to me for that week this is their expression of their practice that week in some sense they don't want to come and be exposed that way and make that effort and be viewed and be judged and be approved or disapproved and if they don't bring their life you know and they come in all limp and kind of like I'm not really here that won't work because I'm all ready to meet and so where are you that's the most likely thing to have get some negative feedback on from hopefully in an upright way so this is a in that situation here's the Four Noble Truths you know meeting them meeting this authority this undeniable this is the core of Buddhist authority this teaching it's very hard for us to like bring ourselves and face what we're dealing with here and tremendous turbulence comes up and we want to get away from it or do something to make it go away and this

[68:17]

is natural this is normal and it's difficult and so I'd like to go into this more detail but and actually get into it more and more but this is what I'm kind of feeling this morning and I'm sorry I didn't get to answer all your questions but I think it's it's good to stop

[68:34]

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