Someone told me yesterday that before the last class or two, he was really enjoying and looking forward to the classes because he was enjoying them. And it seemed like the way the material was presented, it was really easy for it to come in and be understood. The last two classes were a little bit more difficult to deal with, partly because his question and answers seemed to be coming from a lot of different points of view and so on. And that didn't surprise me because I was trying to do something different the last class or two. And what I was trying to do was for you to come forward more with your position or the way you relate to this material as a basic thing in practice. There's Buddhist teachings that are in books and so on, but in terms of actually receiving the Dharma, in Soto Zen particularly, we say that the Dharma transmission is realized face-to-face.

[01:13]

So there's Dharma all over the place. It's in books, it's coming out of people's mouths, it's in the mountains and so on, but the realization of Dharma occurs face-to-face. So I was trying to get you to come up to your face and bring your face forward, and that's hard to follow. When that's happening, it's hard to actually see what's actually going on because it's not like just a presentation, it's each person trying to be themselves. And I continue to want that to be happening, that each of us is sitting with our face on our face and we feel our face on our face and we are keeping track of what our position is on the teachings as they're coming. When we have a face, we can meet a face. If we don't have a face, we can't meet a face.

[02:16]

But if you have a face, you're vulnerable and it's not easy just to assert yourself right up to the surface of your face and not go any further. That's the context in which Dharma discussion penetrates, really sinks into the person. A little process thing here is that a lot of times people listen to Dharma without any self-expression. Sometimes people are just sitting quietly with their legs crossed or whatever, or in their seat, but they're really expressing themselves while they're sitting there. They're not saying anything, but they're really expressing themselves. They're not walking around the room or shaking a staff or shouting or anything, but they're actually expressing themselves. They're really feeling what it's like to be on their seat. So it isn't necessarily you're saying anything or doing anything, but you're expressing yourself.

[03:25]

But sometimes people are listening without much self-expression too. Sometimes they're sitting and enjoying what's happening, like enjoying a class or enjoying a lecture, but they're sitting back, leaning back in their seat like this, a few inches or a few millimeters or a few heartbeats away from their own body. They're leaning back and just taking in maybe some interesting stuff, but it's a little passive. But even passive can be self-expressive, so maybe even passive isn't quite the word. They're a little bit not in their body. They're leaning back, so to speak, maybe, taking it in. And that can be quite enjoyable and not totally a waste of time, but the Dharma doesn't penetrate them. So what I'm asking for is that you come up and inhabit your body and mind and express it, that you feel that you're expressing it moment by moment. Then, if you express yourself, the next thing that happens in the process is you get some resistance.

[04:33]

You express yourself and then somebody else expresses herself to you or himself to you. You do the great thing of risking self-expression and then there's somebody who says something back. And you feel that resistance, but that resistance then is what helps you to fully express yourself. Like you may think, oh, I'm expressing myself. But somebody pushes on you, you feel some stiffness. Like Brooks looked up the word resistance, it means to stand, what? Keep standing. So resistance is like you get touched, but you keep standing there. You don't move with it. So to find your upright position, you need to be pushed on to find your uprightness, because your uprightness is a place that doesn't stick. You're there, but when something happens, you feel it, you move with it. Uprightness is flexible too. It's one of the characteristics of it. So only through somebody pushing back on you a little bit or questioning you or disagreeing with you, do you find your real position.

[05:39]

When you find your real position, your upright position, your true position, then you meet somebody and then dharma is transmitted. Not necessarily from anybody to anybody, but it's already there. Then it sinks in. It percolates down into the body when we're really present like that. And we need this resistance. So that's part of what I was trying to do the last few days around the issues of the Four Noble Truths. And in particular, around the first aspect of the path, Right View. And Right View, of course, again includes, sometimes they say, acceptance of the Four Noble Truths or acceptance of the teaching of rebirth, karma, and that the practice actually does work. In other words, it does work and people have tried it and have been successful.

[06:47]

This is part of Right View, that this stuff's being presented to you. But what does it mean to accept? Now I'll tell you how I feel about this. Okay. So I think I do accept, I try anyway, I think I do intend to accept Buddha's teaching. I do accept the teaching of the Four Noble Truths. I do accept the teaching of Right View. I do accept the teaching of karma and rebirth. I do accept those issues that are being brought up by Right View. But for me, accept means, it doesn't mean I believe. Accept means I study. I do not assert rebirth or deny rebirth. I do not assert the laws of karma or deny them.

[07:51]

I do not assert the Four Noble Truths or deny them. However, I accept the assertion of the Four Noble Truths. I accept that they could be asserted. I accept all the different types of assertion of the Four Noble Truths. I accept the literal assertion of the Four Noble Truths. I accept it. I accept the literal assertion of rebirth. I accept the literal assertion of the laws of karma. But again, accept means I trust them, trusting them means I study them. So really I trust study. And trusting study means I trust the fourth noble truth. I trust the path of study. I trust study and I also trust the mode of study called upright sitting of this school. I trust that, which means I practice it, which means I study what upright sitting is.

[08:54]

I don't even sort of like have a rigid view or a literal view or an absolute view of what upright is. I study upright, I study the path, that's my way of trusting the fourth noble truth is I study the fourth noble truth and I study it by doing the practice as I am studying it as I currently am trying to find out what it is. Fourth noble truth then of course the reason what I mean by study it and practice it and the reason why I'm studying it and practicing it is because I think it has some connection to the third noble truth. I do. As a matter of fact I said to you, I experience and I continue to devote my attention to the fourth noble truth because I feel it's intimately connected to the third. As a matter of fact I think the fourth noble truth is the third noble truth. In other words practice and realization are the same thing. Now of course I wouldn't even be concerned with this stuff if it weren't for the first noble truths.

[09:55]

So, I accept them but also I don't believe them, I accept them. I study suffering, I study suffering, I study suffering. I talk to people about suffering all the time. I'm all the time talking about suffering, listening to it, [...] listening to it. Saying, OH yeah, yeah this is suffering, this is suffering, yeah this hurts ,yes, yes, yes, yes, all the time, suffering, suffering, listening to suffering, suffering, suffering, listen. I study the first noble truth, and I also study the second noble truth. I watch. Oh yeah, that's the cause of the suffering. Oh yes, that's the cause, that's the condition, that's the condition, that's the condition, this is the condition, this is the condition, this, all the time I'm noticing the conditions for suffering. I'm hearing the suffering, I'm hearing the conditions for suffering. People tell me, this is suffering, here's the condition, this is, I listen all the time. And that goes very nicely with the fourth, which is to study that stuff and then seeing the relationship makes the fourth and the third the same. This is how I accept these teachings.

[10:58]

I don't affirm them or deny them, I study them. So I don't, you know, not affirming or denying these truths, actually that is my position as a position. And I think that to say that it's true is fine, but to say that rebirth is literally true without being dogmatic is difficult. But if you can do it, great. But how are you going to do that without having direct experience? If you have direct experience, you don't have to be dogmatic about it. Just the way I see it, I see past lives, blah, blah, blah, that's all. I see future lives, blah, blah, blah, you don't have to be dogmatic about it then. But to assert them as literally true without direct experience is difficult without being dogmatic. But if you can do it, great. The other one would be to reject it, and also rejecting it would be hard to do without being

[12:01]

dogmatic. But if you can do it, great. If you've had a vision. I just saw that it was impossible to have rebirth, I just saw that, and it was impossible to have previous lives. I had a realization of that. Anyway, please, either assert or deny or say that you're not doing either. And if you assert that it's true, see if you can do it undogmatically, and if you deny, see if you can do it undogmatically. See, I'm not telling you to do it, I'm not going to be dogmatic about that, but see if it is undogmatic. Take a position, don't get into these, you know, metaphors, psychology and stuff. That evades taking a position, unless you say it's literally true that there's psychology and that's it, and then that's going to be a literal truth there, that'd be okay, I guess, if that's really your stance.

[13:02]

So, that took care of that. Yep, that's the end of rebirth. Any questions about that? Yes? Not a question, but I'd like to say something, which is... Any comments? May I? Through these teachings in the past days, I suddenly reminded myself of what initially brought me into this realm of emptiness, which was my deep rooted fear, and anxiety of death and dying. And I find it interesting that in a way I have forgotten this, I don't really remember

[14:06]

this, but there was a time when I was like, I would say neurotic, afraid of death. And it's interesting that, at that time, I think I believed in dogma, which is, I simply was a pseudo-human Buddhist. You were a nihilist for a while? You were a nihilist? Yeah. Uh-huh. So this kind of company, this fear of death, that was pretty sure for me that death was an end and an absolute dissolution. Period. So, I think for me right now is, what is important is to be open to, I would say, the fact of my dying, to try to be open to that. That seems to imply that I become more and more open to this teaching. It seems to imply that. Uh-huh. Yeah, I would think that openness, once you start opening, it's hard to set a limit on it.

[15:13]

Otherwise, when you're open, it's hard to set a limit on being open. It's not real openness, is it? So, you're open to your death, and I think you're open to this teaching. This teaching gives a little, another twist to death. Populates the void. Just one, I've heard some people or some teachers suggest that we aren't so much afraid, those of us who think we're afraid of being annihilated, and somehow what we're really afraid of is hell. Who has any comments? Yeah, I think that people, I would guess that people are a little more afraid of hell than

[16:22]

they are of actually just not being. I think hell is harder for us to deal with than not being. However, non-being itself, our sense of non-being which surrounds our being, non-being could turn into hell. So, we're also afraid of non-being because we can't sure non-being is going to stay, you know, in its docile form. Because non-being is kind of flexible. It could suddenly turn out to have various hells in it. So, we're still afraid of non-being because we don't really, that's part of our anxiety is, there's a huge unknown non-being all around our being. And part of what's out there is, here's a ticket for you Gabe, guess where it's to? Just specially delivered to you. You got to go now to eternal damnation and meaninglessness and pain.

[17:25]

One thing I was just thinking is that really, I mean that idea of annihilation, it sounds like it has been for me and maybe for parents and a lot of people. I mean that is, that can be hell. I mean that right there, that fear, that terror is hell. And that sort of brings me back to my present situation rather than this idea of non-existing. Well, or come back to your present situation and confront non-existing. Because your present situation is, if you're a normal human being, that you feel like you are existing within some limits. And if you fully inhabit your limited existence, you will notice that all around the edge of your limited existence is the annihilation of your limited existence.

[18:33]

And not even a malignant annihilation, just a logical, ipso facto annihilation. You know, one time I was out in the ocean, on the verge of drowning, and I looked out at the ocean and she seemed rather feminine, rather soft and undulating. And I thought, she's taken me, this is it, you know. She wasn't picking on me, she's just going to take me away. It was all over, it seemed like, so I relaxed. I don't think the universe is out to get us. It's just that it threatens our assertion of independent existence. It always does that. And if you come to your present situation and fully inhabit your body, you naturally feel the threat. But that threat is a door to the realm where we're not threatened, to the realm of interdependence. If we can face that threat, the limit which is being threatened drops away.

[19:39]

And we open to the non-threatening relationship with what isn't us. But it's hard to stay present with that and balanced. But that's the practice, right? To study your body and mind. To study this body to the limits where you feel it's threatened. Yes? I think it was in a particular talk that there was a list of three cravings. A craving for sense desire, a craving for existence, and a craving for non-existence. I too have been in the ocean and have felt the desire to be drawn away. And I was wondering, what is that desire for non-existence? Well, one way to interpret the desire for non-existence

[20:40]

is it's a desire for the annihilation of pain. So when I was out in the ocean, actually, I didn't quite get to desiring that the ocean would take me. But it was a little bit attractive and not so bad because I was in so much pain at my efforts to survive. The more I tried to survive, the more pain I felt, the worse I felt, the weaker I got. Every time I reached out for something to save me and to keep my individual existence going, I felt worse and worse. So to be relieved of this attempt to preserve myself, of the pain of that, this is somewhat attractive in that situation. That's the annihilation kind of desire, the craving for annihilation, I think. And I didn't quite crave it. But what I did is I gave up the fighting to survive. I relaxed. And it turns out, as you see, I was given back to the sands.

[21:46]

And then when I was born, sort of speak again on the beach, I could feel the pain of being born, how difficult it was to have a body, how painful it was to have a body. But I chose the pain of having the body and got up and walked on the earth again. There is that time when you feel like it's such a hassle. It's so painful to try to keep going. The pain of surviving is so painful that you choose to do what makes it so you don't have to deal with the pain of going on. You wish that pain to go away, which is sometimes the same as not wanting to take another breath. And then we die. So there's a little bit of imbalance there. You know, sometimes as we die, that we would actually like that to go away, that pain of living. That's what I... That's one reasonable... That's one accessible interpretation of this craving for annihilation. Yeah.

[22:49]

You could say... For example, some Zen teachers, they say, you know, time to trade it in. That's all. But they really aren't trying to annihilate the pain. It's not a craving. They just feel like they give up to ghost. And they don't have to be in that bad a situation to give it up. You know, sometimes. Sometimes they're not really, really, really sick. But they feel like, yeah, I think it's... I think things seem to be going well. Like, Dongshan is a wonderful example. He seemed to be... There was no signs of ill health. But apparently he felt like he had some really good disciples and apparently he did. And they were pretty much taking care of things, I suppose. He wasn't very old, but anyway. I guess they were taking care of all the students and doing all the teaching. And he didn't need to be around anymore. And he maybe was feeling like, I think I'll get a new body and be born in some other place where, you know, I won't be stepping on people's toes if I do my teaching several years after I'm born again. So it's possible, I think, to go,

[23:53]

just like, you know, going in a bus or something. But not with a feeling of craving. But most people, I think, go with a feeling of craving. Like, they want to put an end to the suffering that they're experiencing at that point in their life. What was that? It was close between these two things. Well, couldn't the desire for non-existence be related to something more subtle than, you know, really major suffering or pains to the experience of self-cleaning, the experience of life being constant, fight for survival? Yes. This fits into, kind of, my feelings about rebirth are ambivalent. Excuse me, but you said, couldn't it be for something more subtle? And she just said, couldn't it be for the third kind of suffering rather than the first kind of suffering? Yes, it could. When I think of rebirth, I actually have,

[24:55]

I just have to say, an intuitive feeling that it exists. And my feeling about that is mixed. It's like, mostly, I think, it's like, oh, no. You know, I'm going to have to come back again. not always, but, there's a lot of that for me. And, you know, I think that what you said yesterday about taking these vows, I mean, taking the Bodhisattva vows, I mean, I've taken them, I've been taking them since the 70s. I mean, I'm going to come back again whether a part of me wants to or not, is what it feels like. And I may have taken them in previous lives as well. And yet, there's this kind of ambivalence about it. There's a part of me that would like to just be in our hut. You know, and leave it all. So, I don't know if there's anything to say about that. It's just that I notice that that

[25:56]

is, you know, a comfort for me. Well, two things come to my mind. Well, just one other aspect of it is that there have been times in my practice when the Bodhisattva vow actually gave meaning to my practice. And that without it, I would have gone, well, you know, I don't quite get why I'm doing this. So there's that other side of it. A lot of us share that with you. Right, folks? And Bodhisattva vow is quite helpful in terms of practice. Bodhisattva vow. Don't forget, also, don't forget In case you don't want to do this, you can do that one. But I'll get back to them in a minute. Linda? How can I study the three accepted and non-accepted?

[26:58]

Study, see, accept. Don't forget assert. Assert. Like another realm, another world. I don't know if it's not a metaphor. How can you study? How can you study? Well, if you can see it as a metaphor, start with it as a metaphor. But don't make the metaphor your position. I should say don't do that. I can also see hell as a metaphor. But I can study metaphors. I study metaphors quite a bit. Have you noticed? I guess I could study metaphors all day long. But to assert that metaphors are real, that's not necessary. Or to deny that they're real is not necessary. Or to deny that they have any reality other than metaphors. I might want to do that. But I actually don't want to.

[27:58]

I just know that there's a position to say that metaphors are just metaphors. In other words, that's the coherence theory. That metaphors are linguistic expressions which are about the nature of language. So, I could study from that point of view. In some sense that point of view is kind of like similar to Nagarjuna's position. That all these metaphors like metaphors for hell and heaven, we human beings live in a world of metaphors. We're surrounded by words. We live in a linguistic universe. And there's words all around us. And some of the words are heaven and hell. So we can study those words. But we also live in a world where somebody is saying that that metaphor is literally true. And some of the people who are saying that are Buddhas. I think that that means not so much that they really mean it's literally true but they want to like study that aspect of it. So they put it out there for themselves and others to study. So you can study metaphors. You can also assert them as having a reality

[28:59]

outside of language if you want to. And then you can study what happens in a conversation where you do that. Okay? You can say, I think that this metaphor has extrinsic reality over and above me just saying so. Right? Like, Gabe exists, I would say has, you know, in some sense some literal reality. In other words, he exists whether I say so or not. But then again, someone would say, yes, but Gabe, you know, is just a word, you know. And blah, blah, blah. And there's no intrinsic thing, no inherent thing called Gabe. So the point is you're always studying, you're always studying, you're always studying. And if you assert something, you take responsibility for your assertions and if you deny something, you take responsibility for your denial. But even though taking responsibility for an assertion means you study the world of assertion. If you deny something, you study the world of denial. I'm denying something. What's that world like? Study it. Feel what that's like. Have a face-to-face meeting in the face of assertion. So a lot of these Zen stories are somebody comes

[30:01]

and he asserts something, he asserts. You know, he kind of stands there and says, I'm here and this is happening. What do you say about it? And sometimes they come into denial. The question is, are they studying while they met? Did they fix on their assertions? You know? Did they get stuck? That's what they're trying to tell. Or can they move with their assertions? Change with their assertions? That's the test. But what a lot of people do, of course, is they don't make assertions, don't make denials, and then nobody will find out if you're stuck, including you. But you say, I'm here, and somebody can push you this way, and can you move? Okay? Do you understand? Good. Before I respond to you, I want to say something about Bodhisattva, Vow, and Arhat. I want to say about Arhats that, although it may be hard to find Arhats, it's not as hard to find stream-winners.

[31:03]

Does everybody know what a stream-winner is? No. You don't? No. You know what a stream-winner is, Stephen? I'm not certain. Well, you can learn something, too, then. A stream-winner, this is for certain, and this is a literal truth, a stream-winner is a person who has seen the, you know, dependent co-arising of the person. Well, yeah, your self is still in there. In other words, you see that the person doesn't have inherent existence. You see the lack of self of the person. When you see that, you become a stream-enterer. And that vision, when it's clarified, is irreversible. You never, of course, there are different views of this, some people say they can slip back, but anyway, the idea is this is a permanent change in your life once you see this, once you have a clear take of the lack of self of the person. There are quite a few people that have seen this,

[32:05]

and they can tell you about that. And one of the teachings is that a person who has an insight will be an arhat in a maximum of seven more reboots. You said stream-enterer. I thought you said stream-winner. Both, stream-winner and stream-enterer. They win the stream and... I think they usually say enterer. They do? I like winner. She thinks it's mine. Has anybody else heard winner besides me? Maybe it's a zen thing. I like winner. It's a zen thing. Zen people... It's a zen thing because zen people are into winning and losing. Right, Jennifer? I was wondering how the Asian moon relates to... You're wondering how it does? Did you finish your...

[33:08]

I didn't finish, but I will. Jennifer said how does... She's wondering how does deja vu relate to rebirth. I would say it relates by being different. That deja vu is something that happens to us in our present life and is not rebirth. I think deja vu has to do with basically you think something and then you think you just thought it a little while ago. But actually, you're thinking it right now. No connection at all to... I wouldn't go that far. I don't think that's what's meant by deja vu. My understanding of deja vu is not that you meet the person and think you've known them, but you meet the person and you think that you've met them just like this, exactly like this, before. You're at a cocktail party and you're eating those little

[34:14]

corn things, talking to somebody and you feel like you've done this before, besides the movie. You feel like this actually happened before. But the thing is it didn't happen just before, it just happened right now and you think that it was before. It's exactly the same thing, but the mind just takes this little flicker and you look back at it and say, this happened before. That's what I think deja vu is. That's my experience of deja vu. I have another one like that about the ringing in the ears I'll tell you about later. But before I respond to Nina, I'm not going to make any big boundaries or anything between rebirth and deja vu, I just don't think they're the same thing. I don't think they're the same thing either. Well, they're related, but everything in your life is related to itself. That's more or less. Bodhisattva vow. Well, the point is that if there isn't rebirth, fine. If there is, fine.

[35:14]

If it's a good rebirth, fine. If it's a bad rebirth, fine. Bodhisattvas vow to take all rebirths that are helpful. So the point of a bodhisattva is not to be trying to engineer good rebirths for yourself. Now, someone may say, well, what about these lamas that try to get reborn in a place where it would be easy for people to find them. And you might say, well, I think that would be helpful to people if they can find me again. So I'm going to get reborn near a bunch of Tibetans. You know? So they'll spot me. You know? Or I'm going to put up some, I'm going to leave some definite signs so that the divination people will be able to locate me. And I think that's helpful. But the point is that you're willing to go anywhere. The rebirth isn't the point. The point is what's helpful. And for bodhisattvas, basically come into this world

[36:16]

to play joyfully with suffering beings. Although, although it hurts them to see suffering beings, they love to hang out with suffering beings. So their joy of hanging out with suffering beings is extremely great, even though they feel terrible that people are suffering. It really does bother them that people are suffering. And they love to be with suffering people. And they also love that suffering people don't really exist. That also is kind of big relief. Which is part of what they're here to share and play about. So bodhisattvas, this rebirth thing to bodhisattvas is not a big issue. If there is or isn't, it's not the issue. The issue is the heart that wants to be with suffering people and help them and play with them. That's the samadhi of the bodhisattvas. It's not the samadhi of rebirth. It's the samadhi they have when they're in, when they're born. They have that samadhi. They're back in the playground again. Back in the saddle again.

[37:17]

Out where a friend is a friend. Where the longhorn cattle feed on the lonesome ginseng weed. I'm back in the saddle again. I'm back in the saddle again. It's like that, you know. And the reason why they can enjoy birth and death is because they practice. Put them in birth and death. What do they do when you put them in birth and death? What do they do? Yeah, they upright sitting. They study it. They say, oh, birth and death. Wow, look at that. Ooh, yucko. No, not really yucko. Just kidding. So bodhisattvas, this rebirth thing is like if there's a possibility to continue to play and help people, I'm into it. And also, basically, I'm just available as long as they're suffering beings, I'm up to keep working. I'm up to keep... I'm up to... Samantabhadra, right? As long as they're suffering beings, I'm here to pay homage to Buddhas. As long as they're suffering beings, I'm here to make offerings to Buddhas.

[38:18]

As long as they're suffering beings, I'm here to admit my own problems. As long as... As long as... No, excuse me. Homage, praise, offerings, confess my own faults, rejoice in the merits of others, you know, do all the practices that Buddhas have done, beg Buddhas to stay in the world, beseech Buddhas to teach, serve sentient beings and dedicate the merit to all of them, as long as they're sentient beings who aren't free, I want to do that stuff. That's what I want to do. That's what I want to do. Give me an opportunity. I'll take the opportunity to do those practices. That's Samantabhadra. Rebirth is like, you know, you know, a parking meter or something. It's not a big issue. The loci of rebirth, you know, the loci of the playground is not the issue. What kind of living beings are in the playground is not the issue because it's infinite playground and infinite,

[39:20]

infinite beings. So, just what's up for today? Who's up for today? What's my heart being asked to open to today? That's all the Bodhisattvas care about and they love that. That's the Bodhisattva thing about rebirth. And the only way that you can be this way and stand to be this way is by being totally upright and balanced and have no attachments and not be influenced by all this stuff. Otherwise, you start to hate rebirth. Not another one. Oh, no! Even a great Bodhisattva can start to... Well, not a great Bodhisattva. A great Bodhisattva doesn't start getting influenced, but even a person who wants to be a Bodhisattva and sees the merit of it, get influenced by your sentiments and your, you know, stuff like that, then you won't want to play the game anymore. So then you'll feel drawn into birth or repulsing birth. If you're repulsing birth, then you're drawn into birth. You'll take some position, some unbalanced position, and then you'll be a servant or a slave of that. That's it on rebirth.

[40:24]

Right? Except for there's a question. So maybe it isn't. Maybe there's more to talk about. Well, I just wanted to comment on stream winner. Yes. Winner, enter. Whatever you say. At the end of the Heart Sutra, it's my understanding that you say, gone, gone, gone to the other shore. Excellent. Wonderful. That's your understanding? And that has to do with the stream enterer. Entering the stream, going to the other shore. Well, that's one way to understand it. But another way to understand it is gone even beyond the other shore. In other words, back to this shore. So, one way to understand it would be gone, bye-bye, stream enterer. Right? They're free, you know, of self-clinging, free of suffering. But then, they still have some

[41:25]

residual problems, right? They aren't an arhat yet. Stream winners, if you start chopping their fingers, they might get angry. Because they still have that self-cherishing, they have the finger-protecting habit that was built up from self-cherishing over many lifetimes. So, they don't yet have the patience to let themselves be dissected. So, leave those stream winners alone. So, anyway. So, then they have to go gone beyond. Gone beyond even being gone that way. Okay? But then they have to even go beyond that, beyond arhat. Okay? So, first is gone, then gone beyond. So, first stream enterer, then gone beyond that arhat. Then beyond arhat, bodhisattva. Namely, come back to the other side. Go beyond means to go beyond just being released. Then go beyond that means come back. Come back and play. And not just in a sort of like middling difficult situation. Whatever situation

[42:27]

is your assignment at the time. Sometimes an easy assignment is appropriate for you. It isn't always the most difficult horrific scene that's the one you should go to. Sometimes a kind of mild suffering is just the right thing for you. You don't choose. You get these assignments. And you say, fine. You're back. You're back in the saddle again. That's the point. You're entirely beyond spiritual attainment. There's no sign of having gone beyond. You're right in the soup with everybody else. And you can say, well, isn't there a sign that you're enjoying it more than they are? Okay. I'm not going to argue. Sorry. I don't know who's next. Yes. Pardon? Okay. Go ahead. Use them all because you never know. You only live once. A story about

[43:32]

Zen Master who was dying and his disciples were around him and they were grieving and he lifted up his head and said, why are you crying? Because we don't want you to leave us. And he said, well, where would I go? That's a nice face you made there. Did you channel that face? Yes. I think I read that one. Yeah. That's what he did. He seemed to be perfectly healthy and he said, you know, tomorrow there's going to be one of the monks is going to die or something like that. They couldn't figure out who he was talking about. And then he sat up in front of them and dropped off, died. And he started crying and he came back and said, can't you let me go in peace? And he said, Tenzo, prepare a feast for the fools. And they had a big party and then a week later

[44:33]

he did it again. They were quiet that time. Of course he didn't actually thoroughly die. He didn't like die like dead. He just came up to the edge and stopped breathing and stuff, right? That kind of stuff. That's not the same as death. So you can come back from that. And there's some wonderful... I'm doing a course in City Center on death koans. It would be wonderful. Not City Center. The hospice. For the hospice patients. Not for them. They don't want to hear death koans. For the volunteers. So this year, as I said, this year I'm going to be studying karma and rebirth. I'm going to study it. Study it, study it, study it, study it. Who snorted? I saw Linda's hand. Was there somebody else over there with their hand raised before Linda?

[45:34]

Or Rob, yeah. I always sort of felt it was kind of... I always felt a little resistance to take the important part of the vow. Not all the practices that you just mentioned. You mentioned some of them. But the literal vow. To come back and say I love you. And I always wanted to prematurely do that. Before I was already an archmon. It seems like a delusion to want to come back. And say I still don't understand how I can hold that in me before I'm already free. I can see how when I'm free there's never any duality or anything like that. It seems like... You start the real practice of the perfections, the real actually starts after you're an arhat. I think it's good to be careful about it. But in the meantime it seems like whether you're going to work towards being an arhat or being a bodhisattva who vows to be an arhat among other things it would be good to learn how to make the vow.

[46:35]

Or learn, get in touch with the desire and look at that desire carefully and analyze what you're up to there. That would be good. That's kind of like doing the same thing that a bodhisattva would do. Even after a bodhisattva made the vow they would probably still study the nature of the vow and how it lives and take care of it. Right. Yeah, I see what you mean. On the other hand, when I sincerely make that vow I feel free. Whenever I think, oh, I actually would like Marcia to be happy really happy before me when I say that I feel free at the moment. My heart just like goes... I'm not afraid of anything anymore. I'm free for the moment as I feel that. I mean, if I really feel that if I really kind of get into that I really wish that Rob would make that bodhisattva vow before me. Yeah. At that time I feel

[47:38]

about as free as I can feel. And I'm about as ready for hell as I can be. So, I don't know. It's not exactly chicken and egg. It's more like chicken and chicken and egg and egg. They're really the same thing. Freedom in a bodhisattva vow is the same thing. It's like are you in birth? Are you in this life because you're here to play with suffering beings and to help them? And this is a fantastic opportunity which you're totally joyful about? Are you in this situation because somebody pushed you and it was a mistake and you're trying to figure out how to survive? And that's the usual animal situation. The latter one. So, this bodhisattva thing is antidote to our animal selfishness. Linda? I always felt later that I came from a tradition of not having

[48:39]

anybody teach me as a child about hell and windstorm and these terrible tortures that were going to happen after I died. And then I come into Buddhism and you can read about this. I mean, Shantideva he's just quaking in his little boots. Abhidharmakosha. And these terrible descriptions of being tortured in any possible way you can think of. And for the study that I don't understand is that to put the fear of to really make you want to practice it? I have some resistance, I think, to take on those stories or literally definitely but I don't exactly know how to study them. Well, well, the way I would recommend is that you sit upright and then get a little podium or what do you call it? A little reading stand so you don't have to bend over and put the book at about a 45 degree angle

[49:39]

and open it and read. But while you read, keep being upright and keep being in your body and feel your little heart pounding there when you hear the stories or feel your comments come up in your head as you just be present with the experience of reading the stories. Go into I would suggest you go into the stories and eventually that you when you feel prepared that you just go deeper and deeper into the stories but not by pushing yourself but just letting yourself be drawn into them but out of your uprightness rather than trying to get something. Don't lean forward into the stories of hell and brimstone. Don't lean backwards, just be upright in the midst of them. But again my feeling is the reason I'm willing to study many things basically anything but these teachings of the teaching of karma is so important in Buddhism that I really feel like I have to study it. I mean to overlook that is overlooking a major area. So I started studying Abhidharma

[50:39]

here in 1969 I started studying it because because I heard it was really important but it was really difficult to study it. It wasn't exactly hell well actually maybe it was like a cold hell. It wasn't exactly hell but anyway it was hard but I kept studying because it was important. Now I'm saying this rebirth this karma and rebirth thing because karma you can't separate karma from rebirth because part of the rationale of karma is which I'll mention more in detail later is that karmic retribution happens in three times but also even if you don't take that literally and all that you still have to deal with the fact that our ancestor the great lofty Zen master Dogen very literally presented karmic retribution three times so you have to like how are you going to deal with that? Even metaphorically what's the point here? So anyway this is important material. You don't necessarily have to read those stories of fire and brimstone but if you read the Shobogenzi you're going to hear some stories of

[51:40]

you know on taking refuge in the triple treasure there's a story of the female dragon, the very sick female dragon she's a sick female dragon because in previous life she was a nun and she misused her spiritual authority to have lots and lots of lovers and as a result of that she was reborn in this unfortunate state. However the Buddha then gave her a little cure sprayed water onto her and she became well again and recovered and he said the reason for this was that she took refuge in the triple treasure so this is a story about rebirth, about karma and about the power of taking refuge it's going to be hard for you to if you start studying taking refuge in the triple treasure you're going to run into stories about how powerful it is to counteract karmic entrapment and karmic entrapment uses multiple lives so and then you get these horrible

[52:41]

stories around the edge you know also wonderful stories so I just say again as is appropriate and the way you judge what's appropriate let your uprightness determine the appropriateness from uprightness what book should you read today you know go in the library and stand upright before the library books and then see watch your little hand reach out there for some nice Zen book that doesn't say anything about rebirth go in again another day watch it reach out for the lotus sutra just you know where Buddha is predicting these people left and right and talking about how he studied with such and such Buddhists for a certain number of eons let your hands choose the books, let your hands and eyes choose the books from uprightness and then study uprightly this is the way you go into the Buddha dharma this is the way the Buddha you bring your face to the Buddha dharma and the Buddha dharma brings its face to you and in that place the dharma is transmitted and so don't say oh ok well rebirth is really important

[53:43]

so I should find the more goriest stories possible and stick my nose in them, no not necessarily let presence guide you into your study presence will tell you what you should study next and anyway you're here at Tassajara and this is being brought up to you, you didn't have to ask for this you said you wanted Four Noble Truths, well here comes rebirth you didn't ask for it, all you got to do is meet it face to face Roberta? There's so much teaching so much wisdom in Zen tradition about looking at our conditioning and conditioning our mind and how beliefs in fact any beliefs that we hold condition our mind in a certain way so I find myself looking at this and then hearing this talk about karma and rebirth and what do we believe and I don't know, it just seems like I do have a belief in rebirth

[54:46]

and it's not totally worth the dispute but right now I do hold a certain belief and when I was 15 I had a different belief, I didn't really believe in it and probably 10 years from now my belief will change so I'm not saying that we shouldn't hold beliefs because I think it's impossible not to have conditioning or hold beliefs but also, you know what you were saying about studying studying this, I can see you in that because I don't feel that I can just take a certain set of beliefs which I think arose out of certain circumstances and they have certain biases in them, not all of which I accept not all of which make sense in my life those biases from a totally different civilization and I feel I have a responsibility to study them but I don't like the way, there's a certain way our minds can go dead around beliefs you know, really easily just, you know, there's this, this and this and it becomes just words take it for granted take it for granted

[55:47]

or wait for our minds to shut down and start making boundaries yeah, you can get lazy and dogmatic around beliefs and lose the vitality of your presence and the way I use belief is in terms of, you know probabilities of something being true and I don't operate I don't feel like I operate that way about what I think is most important to me it isn't a probability that I want to be happy that's what I want the way I want to live is not a probability, that's my faith so for me faith is the way I want to live forever beliefs are like likelihoods or probabilities of certain things holding, relative likelihood of certain things holding, I do have beliefs which determine whether or not I go into buildings and stuff like that if I believe the likelihood of the building falling down on me you know, I trust that this building is not coming down on me

[56:50]

it's a belief coming in this building is not my faith being with you in a certain way is my faith and again to get lazy around your beliefs is not, to get lazy around my beliefs is not my faith my faith is not to get lazy around my beliefs so if I come into the room, my faith is to come into the room and be prepared for the likelihood of the building falling down or grabbing the doorknob being prepared that the doorknob won't turn or the door will fall off that's the way I like to live you know, or to sit on a chair without expecting that it's going to hold me but testing it out, that kind of presence, that I have faith in that kind of life, that's not a probability that's a way of life and I think that way of life studies chairs, doorknobs and every teaching I hear but my practice deals with beliefs but my practice is not one of my beliefs beliefs are part of what religion deals with but I don't think religion, real religion is a belief

[57:50]

I think real religion is a proper response to the beliefs that human beings have it's more like a concrete moment by moment experience no, we have concrete moment by moment experiences and practice is how you deal with them and we have concrete moment by moment experiences of beliefs we have concrete calculations of beliefs, we concretely think the door is a door and that it'll hold up or it won't these are concrete experiences practice is how you relate to your experience right? it's hot and stuffy in here, isn't it? and you survived congratulations so I'd like to next time talk even more about this thing which I'm done talking about rebirth and future lives and stuff and karma and things like that and okay

[58:52]

so by the way I feel you know I feel that you people are studying this topic in a pretty balanced way that's my that's my sense and that you're willing to you know express where you stand on it which I appreciate that's what I request of you you say where you're at on the topic for now and then we work with whatever that is in the spirit of you know this is where we work from, we work with this we work from here with our current response to this teaching okay and if you want me to stop talking about karma and rebirth let me know and I'll be happy to stop and move on to something else oh someone said that they wanted me to move on and talk about the other aspects of the Eightfold Path and I I'm what do you call it? I'm planning to do

[60:11]

that but I don't exactly want to leave, I want to go deep now on this first one on the right view and right view is this stuff about karma and rebirth and whether enlightenment actually has been attained and can be attained by the practice so it kind of sets the stage for the rest of them so I'd like to go a little deeper into the into the right view before going into the the other seven and just I had this problem I was thinking I would talk about the Eightfold Path during satsang but there's only seven days in satsang but if we finish right view then we can do the other seven during satsang so it works out well with the program May our attention

[61:00]

@Text_v004
@Score_JJ