The kind of teaching that the ancestor Daoxin and the ancestor Wang Bo gave, in particular the kind of teaching of this mind is Buddha, Buddha is a sentient being. Buddha is the sentient being. Buddha is all sentient beings. I think that kind of teaching, again, is a direct pointing, you might say. Or anyway, it's the kind of thing where if somebody understands it, that may do the whole

[01:04]

teaching for them, so that all day long you walk around and you understand that there does appear to be a sentient being, a sentient being, somebody who doesn't understand what's going on. A sentient being is someone who sees falsities. The sentient being is Buddha. So all day long you understand that. And if you understand that deeply, this transforms the way you relate to the world. And one description of the change from the early teachings, the early way of practice and the bodhisattva way of practice is that in the early way of practice, as you concentrate, as your mindfulness develops, you start to see the marks.

[02:19]

You start to see things as impermanent, as not-self. But the bodhisattva wanders in an unlabeled dream. Because everything is mind. You can label things, but really it's... They aren't real labels of real things. You don't know whether this is you or Buddha. Or rather, you understand that this is you as Buddha and Buddha as you. You don't know if you're an eagle, a storm, or a great song. And so you're very careful about the way you touch the storm or the song or the eagle or the Buddha or yourself.

[03:30]

You become very... very transformed by understanding that you're walking through a dream, deeply understanding that. You don't reject the dream, you attend to it lovingly, but you don't know what it is, do you? So you're careful not to reject it, or grasp it. How do you relate to it? Well, in a way you relate to it as you would if you were meeting a Buddha. You relate to it means you relate to all your experience, which are false. All the things you see are not real.

[04:35]

But you relate to these things which are not real, which are your mind, and are not real because they're mind-constructed. You relate to them like you're meeting Buddha, because in fact Buddha is the sentient being, and the sentient being is nothing but these false experiences. The sentient being is nothing but false experiences. Sentient beings do not have true experiences. But they do have dreams. And they walk through them. And bodhisattvas accept sentient beingness, sentient life, and they accept the dream and they walk through it. But also This dream, this sentient dream, this dream of a sentient being, this sentient being who dreams is Buddha.

[05:37]

So you respect the dream as Buddha and respect your dream which is Buddha, your dreaming which is Buddha. So how do you relate to Buddha? Well, I don't know. I can't tell you how you relate to Buddha, but you know, I don't go up and slap Buddha on the back. I'm pretty respectful. Now, some people, maybe if they meet Buddha, they run away and hide because they're ashamed. But that's not what the bodhisattva does. Bodhisattva doesn't run away from Buddha, doesn't run away from sentient beings, doesn't run away from either one out of shame. Bodhisattva may feel shame, but that's a sentient being, which is Buddha. So, if we meet Buddha, a sentient being, we meet a dream, a dreaming process, and we also understand this is Buddhist, so we meet it, we are willing to wade into this sentient life.

[06:44]

So in the Lotus Sutra it says, if you practice all virtues, are upright, honest, gentle and harmonious, you'll see the Buddha right under your nose. So the way of conducting ourselves is the way we would meet a Buddha. Practicing all virtues means we go into life in order to help beings. We meet the Buddha in order to help beings. We meet the Buddha in order to help Buddhas, even though they don't need it. We meet them, we face them, we don't run away from them. We appreciate the opportunity and we meet them with upright posture. We're alert. We don't want to take up too much or too little of the Buddha's time. We appreciate the moment, the time we have with the Buddha. Thank you for this interview, Buddha. We're honest with the Buddha.

[07:52]

We're gentle with the Buddha. We're harmonious with the Buddha. And if we're this way with our own dreaming process, we will see the Buddha appearing right before us. The Lotus Sutra says that. And if you hear the teaching of Buddha is the sentient being, I think that the implication would be that you would relate to the sentient beings' life in the way that the Lotus Sutra says will show the Buddha appearing. So if you treat everything as Buddha, all sentient life, all ignorant life as Buddha, it seems like your posture will become the kind of posture and the kind of attitude that will reveal Buddha.

[08:53]

So now maybe you don't see, understand it's Buddha, but if you acted like it was Buddha, you will see that it's Buddha. That's a short, direct course. Now what is the beginning of the bodhisattva's practice and where does it abide? The beginning of bodhisattva practice is great compassion and it abides among sentient beings. And how does the bodhisattva practice Among sentient beings, the bodhisattva enters into the mud and the water in order to be with the sentient beings. And once they're with them, among them, the bodhisattva is upright, honest, gentle and harmonious with sentient beings.

[10:00]

And then the bodhisattva realizes sentient beings are Buddha, the sentient being, this sentient being is Buddha. Now, I don't know what Buddha is, but this is a hawk. This is an anxious dog. This is a storm. This is a song, or so-called. This is the dream of the storm and the dream of an eagle. This is an eagle dream. This is Buddha. I see that because when I meet the storm and I meet the song and I meet the eagle and I meet the dog, when I meet my pain, I realize I'm meeting a dream. And I'm gentle with this dream of pain. I'm harmonious with this dream of pain. I don't reject it. I don't grasp it. I'm respectful of this dream of pain.

[11:02]

I'm respectful of this eagle. And I understand all living beings are the Buddha. And the Buddha is the sentient being. Because this is my abode as a bodhisattva, all these sentient beings. Pain is not the bodhisattva's happiness. although the bodhisattva's happiness is inseparable from pain. The bodhisattva's happiness is the bodhisattva's openness to the pain. We're not happy that beings are suffering.

[12:10]

We're happy that we're not afraid of their suffering. We're happy that we're willing to live with them. We're happy that we're willing to respect them. We're happy that we're willing to be upright with them and open our body and mind to them. We're happy that we're willing to be honest with them in their suffering and our suffering. In our suffering and their suffering, we're happy that we are gentle with ourselves and with them. We're happy that we are harmonious with our suffering and their suffering. This is our happiness, not the suffering. It's the practice, the attitude. And when we are happy that way and we practice that way, we see the Buddha in the suffering. We see the Buddha in the mud. And there's a training course for bodhisattvas, a yoga course, and the yoga is the highest yoga for bodhisattvas, is that we impose no construct on reality, which means also that when unreality has appeared, we impose no further construct on that and we work at

[13:42]

meeting this unreality which has got constructs imposed on us, so now it's things, we meet it in this way I just described. We meet unreality so respectfully that we don't add any further conceptualization. Now, I said that today I would bring up this different, many kinds of emptiness or many kinds of lack of own being. You know, there's basically three types of lack of own being. I said I would talk about those, but I thought maybe it might be better to do another, just run through one of the main bodhisattva meditation texts, kind of just go through it. I think maybe in the middle of sashin might be a better time to talk about these three kinds of lack of own being when you're really concentrated.

[14:47]

But we'll see if you accept this. But may I bring up this Bodhisattva practice text and postpone this more abstruse discussion of the three kinds of essencelessnessnessnessnessnessnessnessnessnessnessnessnessnessnessnessnessnessnessnessnessnessnessnessnessnessnessnessnessnessnessnessnessnessnessnessnessnessnessnessnessnessnessnessnessnessnessnessnessnessnessnessnessnessnessnessnessnessnessnessnessnessnessnessnessnessnessnessnessnessnessnessnessnessnessnessnessnessnessnessnessnessnessnessnessnessnessnessnessnessnessnessnessnessnessnessnessnessnessnessnessnessnessnessnessnessnessnessnessnessnessnessnessnessnessnessnessnessnessnessnessnessnessnessnessnessnessnessnessnessnessnessnessnessnessnessnessnessnessnessnessnessnessnessnessnessnessnessnessnessnessnessnessnessnessness Is that all right, Josh? Yeah. Okay. The text I'm referring to is called Bhavanakraman. Bhavanakraman. And it's written by an Indian teacher named Kamala Sheila. Kamala... Kamala is a name that we know some people by that name. Kamala Shila, Shila's precepts, the precept of Kamala. He's the Indian master that went to Tibet and had that debate with the Zen guy and won. I believe he's either Sangha Rakshita's teacher or student.

[16:01]

Thangaraksha is another important Indian master. Anyway, this Bhavanakraman is one of the main texts that became important in India and became very important in Tibet. Not so important in China, as far as I know, but maybe I'm wrong. But very important in India and Tibet. Bhavanakraman. B-H-A-V-A-N-A. Bhavana, which means... bhava means to being and bhavanam means to bring into being so it's like bhavana means cultivation or meditation it's the way you bring the teaching into being and kraman I think means has to do you know a kra like karma to make something like that or exercise so it basically means a yoga meditation it's a bodhisattva insight meditation text kraman K-R-A, M-I-N-A, no, M-I-N-Kramina, N-A, M-I-N-A, Bhavana Kramina.

[17:21]

Huh? I think it's written like in the 8th century. Okay, so the first part of the text, basically he talks about how important compassion is for bodhisattvas and the thought of enlightenment and these points. He's the one who said, you know, where does the bodhisattva practice start and where does its abode start with great compassion and its abode is among living beings. I expand by saying that means its abode is among Beings that don't see the truth. Who see falsities. Who see things. So, there are no things outside of mind and there is no mind outside things.

[18:22]

It takes a mind to make things. In truth, there's no things. But... When mind meets the truth, you get things. Lots of them. A whole universe full, as a matter of fact. There's no things outside mind, but mind does not exhaust. This mind which makes things and the things which make mind does not exhaust reality. There's a reality that's beyond mind. That reality has no things in it, though. It's the un-thing part of reality. It's the infinite possibilities of all things, before they're things. So, it's not to say that mind is everything, it's just that mind is something that exhausts things, and things exhaust mind.

[19:28]

If you realize that, you can become free of both mind and things and understand what isn't the thing, what doesn't happen. This is a reality that is closely connected to things because things cover it. So things and the mind of things is inseparable from the reality of not things. Anyway, the boat of bodhisattvas is among those who see things, who have a mind and who see things that aren't really there. So I'm skipping to the part about the Bodhisattva insight meditation, Bodhisattva Vipassana, higher vision. So he says the first thing he's going to teach is about having no objects of thought.

[20:34]

She should first examine all those material events which other people think are really external objects. she, the bodhisattva, among the sentient beings who think that material things are external. She hangs out with those people, so she should examine what other people think is an external object. Maybe she thinks so too. And then, she's calm, right? She's already been practicing calming practices, and the calming practices of This book are different from the ones we've been bringing up. But anyway, there are these shamatha practices, which she's already trained herself in. So now she looks at what, you know, at these supposedly external objects. Are they something external to her perception? Or are they perhaps just perception itself, appearing to be external, as in a dream?

[21:45]

He should examine these objects which are supposedly external to his perception. He should divide them into their component parts and these parts into their parts and realize the anomalies of postulating an external world. In Zen, we also include that this examination of the anomalies of postulating external world would be done in concert with your teacher. Maybe you don't see all the anomalies of your thinking, that something's external. They did too, just to mention it here. And she should think, or she should realize, all this is nothing but mind.

[22:59]

There is no such thing as an external object. He ascends to the mind only and does not think that external objects really exist. This means that she renounces all thought that material things, as they appear, are real. Renounces the thought that material things are real. And imposes upon reality no construct, quotes, material things. For they may be defined by their perceptibility, but not that they do nothing. but they do not exist. They are perceptible, but do not exist. We see things happening which don't really exist. Hard to stay awake for this?

[24:07]

When she has uncovered the material events for what they are, She should similarly uncover the immaterial mental events and consider, if all is only mind, if there's nothing separate from mind, then there is no object and there is no subject. Excuse me. Excuse me. There is no object. There's nothing separate from mind. There is no object. And where there is no object, there cannot be a subject. Or subject presupposes object. Hence, the mind is devoid of either subject or object. The mind is non-dual, is not two. And reality is defined by its non-duality. Reality is defined by non-duality. Reality is defined by being not two, by being everywhere the same. What is everywhere the same is reality.

[25:12]

Now you realize something about non-duality. But with reality before her, she transcends mind only. This means that he transcends the postulation that subject, that a subject, the postulation of a subject. and abides in the knowledge of the non-duality where no duality appears. Okay, so by this method of analysis into your perception you come to realize there is no, there is a mind and the mind is really devoid of subject or object. Mind is not to.

[26:18]

And then, but with reality before him, he transcends mind only. This means that he transcends the postulation of a subject and abides in the knowledge of non-duality, where no duality appears. Now here comes another step. When she has thus transcended mind only, she should similarly transcend this knowledge where no duality appears. She should transcend this non-appearance. That's what you're talking about yesterday when you were awake. She should consider, colon, things which occur are not born from themselves nor from another.

[27:31]

Nagarjuna, Mulamajamaka Karakas, chapter one, verse one. Things which occur are not born of themselves nor from other things. nor from both, nor from without a cause. In other words, she should consider the teachings of the middle way. Both subject and object are falsehoods, and if they do not exist, then knowledge of their non-duality cannot exist either, for it is inconceivable without them. And thus she casts aside all insistence that this knowledge of non-duality is a real thing and abides in the knowledge where no knowledge of non-duality appears.

[28:32]

She abides in the knowledge where no knowledge of non-duality appears. Where's that, Brooks? It's close at hand. That's a sentient being. The bodhisattvas abide among sentient beings where no knowledge of non-duality exists. So they realize the knowledge of non-duality. Then they transcend the knowledge of non-duality. And where do they wind up when they transcend the knowledge of non-duality? They wind up with beings who don't have that knowledge. But not quite. They actually just wind up in the way where there is no knowledge of non-duality, but not yet even any beings.

[29:34]

But you see, they're getting ready to come back to visit those beings who don't have this knowledge. Because they're not afraid, once they've attained this wonderful knowledge, they're not afraid of transcending it and going to a place where this knowledge of non-duality doesn't appear. So first they free themselves from duality, then they free themselves from non-duality. This is like, what is it, Baijong Waihai has a teaching of first you free yourself from attachment, then you free yourself from non-attachment. And then you free yourself from non-attachment to attachment. From non-attachment to non-attachment. Thus she abides in the realization that all things are without essence. Abiding there she enters into the highest reality, the state of meditation where she imposes no construct at all upon reality, whether of existence or non-existence.

[30:46]

And when he thus abides in the knowledge where no knowledge of non-duality appears, the knowledge where no knowledge appears, of nonduality appears, he abides in the highest reality and sees the Mahayana. For what is called the Mahayana is nothing but the vision of highest reality. And this vision of highest reality is a non-vision. which dawns with the light of true knowledge when she sees all events with the eye of wisdom. As when we read in the scripture, what is the vision of reality? It is not a vision of all events. So you see, maybe you don't see.

[31:52]

So now you don't see. But you've heard. Maybe you haven't heard. Anyway, I said. Maybe I didn't say. Something about this Indian Mahayana Bodhisattva meditation which sounds very much like the Zen teachers to me. They go into a little bit more panalytic detail than the way I've been talking about it. But it's the same point for the same reason. In order... to help to become effective at helping beings. This teaching of Buddha is the sentient being is a way to enter immediately into this. But this is also a good way to enter. In this state of calm and insight she understands reality as it really is.

[32:54]

For in this state she examines things with her insight and she sees no events as being real. No events, no things are real. She sees things but understands that they're not real. In other words, she understands conventional reality with the authority of understanding emptiness. Namely, it's false. She understands that it's false. However, she doesn't reject it. She lives in it. That's her abode because of her compassion. This then is the highest non-seeing and her condition is called the effortless state. This is the highest yoga which imposes no construct upon reality. This is the process by which the bodhisattva should contemplate reality. And should giddiness or depression occur, giddiness might occur, depression might occur.

[34:05]

Can you imagine how they might occur in this situation? If they should occur, then you return to the calming exercise, whatever it was. In this text, they have nine stages of calming process. We have another one called mind like a wall. Or, again, having no objects of thought is immediately calming. When you follow the full implication of having no objects of thought, it's extremely wonderful. is so wonderful that you might either get depressed or excited about it. Then you return to no objects of thought and calm down. When her knowledge takes essencelessness of all events as its meditative object and flows evenly and spontaneously upon it,

[35:12]

She is free of giddiness and depression. I thought of this poem like a long-legged insect floating smoothly upon the flowing stream. In the summer here at Tassajara, particularly up in the side creek if there's still water, if you look at the water, you see these little dots on the floor of the stream moving around. And you look up and you see there's these big insects that float on top of the water. And where their feet touch the water, they make a little dent in the water. You ever seen them lying around? They move on the water so beautifully. It's like that. That's how she practices on things. Then she has made perfect the way which brings about union of insight and calm, and she should abide therein with deep conviction.

[36:21]

as long as she is able, for thus is the stage of practicing with faith or conviction. This is the stage of faith. This isn't the end of the story, though. Sort of the beginning of the story, because now she gets to go to work. By the way, when you're ready, I have some interesting information on the history of the word objective and subjective. Now she returns to the world after realizing emptiness, after understanding. So a bodhisattva, seeing reality as it really is, sets forth in great compassion for all sentient beings.

[37:21]

And she thinks, with no objects of thought, I should cause all beings to open this door of meditation, this vision of all events as they really are. I should help all beings open to Buddha's wisdom. Even though there's really no beings, I want to help them. One of the best things Edward Connes ever said was the Mahayana miracle. It's the miracle, which is again a kind of like... It's not a reality, there's nothing really there. But there seems to be this appearance of beings who want to help beings even though they don't see any beings. This then is the way of the bodhisattva which brings about the union of wisdom and means.

[38:29]

Wisdom and skillful devices to help people. Liberative techniques. For though she sees the ultimate reality, she does not cut herself off from conventional reality, which is false. Or like it says in the Blue Cliff Record, we in the Zen school let go of the ultimate and join hands with the ignorance and walk through birth and death with them. How can we do this? Because we have ended our outflows. We let go of the ultimate and join hands with beings and we don't care about anything. We don't care about anything but knocking out the pegs, melting the glue, taking off the saddlebags. How can we be like this?

[39:33]

Because we've ended these outflows of imposing constructs on reality like existence, non-existence, better and worse, gain and loss, improvement and depreciation. not cut off from their reality. He lives among the living sentient beings, but the bodhisattva is not cut off from their reality, their reality which conceals the truth. She's working with the truth that conceals their truth, which conceals the truth. He doesn't cut off from that, touches it gently, uprightly, harmoniously, honestly, sometimes keeping to herself that this is a falsehood.

[40:35]

but being respectful of a falsehood, not cut off from their reality, he sets out to serve the aims of beings who don't really exist. Led by her great compassion without delusion. Now when the bodhisattva abides in transcendent wisdom, she does not resort, she does not need to resort to means. When you're living in wisdom, you don't necessarily have to resort to means. But when you employ means, you must resort to wisdom. If you want to help people, you have to use wisdom if you really want to help them. How does a bodhisattva, skilled in the great vehicle, how does a bodhisattva, skilled in emptiness, train?

[41:48]

He trains himself in all trainings. He does not see the training, does not see the way of training or the way he is trained. does not see what he is trained in. And for that reason, and for that cause, he does not fall into the extremes of denial. What do you think the extremes of denial are? Yeah, exist or don't exist? Right. This is not as good as that. I don't want to work with these people, with these students. This is not my group. The practice which combines wisdom and means is the practice of bodhisattva.

[42:53]

What is this practice? All activities of body, speech and mind all of it is undertaken out of regard for sentient beings, because it is preceded by great compassion. It is under the sway of compassion, and it springs from her vow for the welfare of all sentient beings, the welfare and happiness of all seers of unrealities. Okay? So, you know, what is it? Bodhidharma's teacher, Prajnatara, went to lunch at a king's house, and the king said, how come you don't study scriptures?

[43:54]

He says, this poor wayfarer, when breathing in, does not get involved in the skandhas, the aggregates, the ayatanas, the sense doors, or the dhatus, the realms of sensory awareness. When breathing in, I don't get involved in them. When breathing out, I don't get entangled in them. This is the scripture I'm always reciting. One hundred, one thousand, one million scrolls. Okay? Bodhidharma's teacher. So here, this bodhisattva sees the aggregates. Sees the skandhas. How? Doesn't get involved. How does she sees them? She sees them as a magical show.

[44:56]

Magical shows, form, feelings, perceptions, formations and consciousness. A magical show. This is how she doesn't get... She doesn't abide in them. This is how Prajnatara doesn't abide in them when he's breathing. Okay, she doesn't... No, she doesn't. She does not wish to disown them, though. Okay, so she sees... her pain, her anxiety, her concepts, her fate, her diligence, her concentration, her anger, her confusion, blah, blah, blah, blah, everything, her body, all these things, she sees them as a magical creation, but does not wish to disown them. She sees the sense doors as like a poisonous snake, but does not wish to disown them.

[46:06]

She sees the realms of sensory awareness as like an empty village but does not wish to disown them. Looking at the skandhas in more detail, she sees the form skanda as like a heap of foam. but does not renounce the marvelous creation of bodies of form. She sees feeling as like a bubble but still sets forth into the meditation which is so pleasant. She sees concepts or ideas as illusions but still conceives of attaining enlightenment.

[47:07]

She sees motivation as like an empty reed, but still is motivated to realize Buddha's wisdom. She sees consciousness as what? as a magic show, but still seeks to attain the activity of body, speech, and mind which spring from Buddha's wisdom and knowledge. This is how she practices among sentient beings, among her own sentientness, and in this way, practicing in the middle of her own sentient soup, of things that are appearing which don't really exist, and relating to them in this loving, upright, balanced, harmonious, honest, and gentle way where she doesn't get fooled by them, which is actually not very upright to get fooled, and doesn't reject them, which is not very gentle.

[48:08]

Or it is gentle not to reject them. It wouldn't be gentle to reject them. And it wouldn't be upright to think they're real. That's too much. So you don't lean into them being real and you don't lean away from them as being unworthy of your attention and respect and devotion. In your own sentientness you behave this way and in this way you show all beings how they can be free too in the middle of the soup of things that don't exist. So respectful of what doesn't exist. but not too respectful. But again, actually I should say, so respectful of what doesn't exist, but it's not respectful to squish reality onto something that isn't real. It's actually disrespectful. It's more respectful to say, okay, I respect you for what you are. You're not real.

[49:11]

And I'm not going to like paste reality on you. I'm going to let you be unreal. That's my respect of you. I'm not trying to improve you into reality. I'm going to let you keep being in illusion as long as you are appearing. You're good enough for me. We have various songs about that which I will refrain from. But only because I can't remember them. As the bodhisattva thus strives with no expectations, For a long time in her practice, which combines wisdom and skillful means, these types of skillful means, as she practices like Prajnatara, breathing in and breathing out, reciting the scripture of not abiding or rejecting any realms of existence, her skill and wisdom gradually grow, ever more developed.

[50:15]

Now there are ten traditional different stages, which we call states, that she abides in ever higher and higher virtues, ranging from the stage of faith, the stage of conviction, up to complete Buddhahood. But it's basically the same practice, just ever widening the scope and applying this basic attitude of the bodhisattva, this basic way of practicing. So that's a quick run through that text, which I find very encouraging. for itself and also for its harmony with the Zen tradition. And I appreciate the Zen tradition's harmony with it and its creative way of offering the same type of teaching in ever new and outrageous forms.

[51:29]

Which, starting around the time of Master Ma, they wrote down these dialogues where these Zen teachers were trying these new, basically their stories of their skill and means. Rather than make these systematic meditation texts like this, they would just actually apply skill and means on the spot. There they were, these Zen bodhisattvas living in the soup of sentient beings, the sentient beings asking them questions, and then they responded in their practice skillfully to show the way, which is their vow. Keeping their eye on the Mahayana, living among sentient life, as it appears as themselves, which is their opportunity to practice, and appears as all other living beings, which is their opportunity to practice.

[52:36]

It's exactly 10 o'clock. Good time to stop. Want to hear about that? This is a somewhat... It's a scholastic point. Until around 1700, in Europe, anyway... The word subjectivum had traditionally applied to the subjects of knowledge, the topics of knowledge, that which we now call objective. While objectivum meant the concept of the thing in the mind. In short, the meaning of the terms has been reversed, reflecting an increased interest in mind in Western thought, starting around 1700.

[53:59]

Actually, starting around 1660, which is an interesting date, because that's also like the, you know, the date that the Puritan Empire... crashed and they had the restoration. Around that time, the switch starts to gradually happen, in England and Germany particularly, to start paying more attention to the mind. Before that, thinkers were mostly concerned with the nature of God and the person's relationship to God. So it's mostly out there. Around this time things started to turn around and look inside to see what's going on inside here. And another interesting thing around this same time it switches to consider is this term, another scholastic term is natura, naturans, which means naturing or creative nature.

[55:06]

So nature has one part, which is the creative part. And it's interesting, the Chinese principle for creation is the mother principle. In the Book of Serenity, where it says creation constantly working her loom and shuttle, it actually says the mother principle is constantly working her loom and shuttle. So one part of nature is the creative part. And the other part is natura naturata, which means the world of phenomena, which is acted upon by nature. So there's the creative process of nature, and there is... the phenomenal world, or that which is the results from the creative process and is acted upon by the creative process. So also in the Book of Serenity poem it says, nature constantly working her loom and shuttle, incorporating the patterns of spring into the ancient brocade.

[56:18]

So the brocade is nature, and the mother principle is always putting, every moment putting a new thread into the brocade. She's creating a new thread and also working the thread into the phenomenal world that has previously been created. So before this time in Western history, Western thought, it was like nature was out there. And we had a relationship to it. We were part of it. And there was a creative principle out there in nature. which made the phenomenal world, and we're part of the phenomenal world. But around this time in Western culture, starting particularly with, like, John Locke and his student Shaftesbury, these two English guys, and then Leibniz and so on, a shift starts happening to see if the creative process is really all pervasive in...

[57:26]

all pervasive in nature, not just out there and not just in here, but very much in here. And the creative part that's inside is the imagination. And because the imagination is the creative part inside, it's the imagination that connects the person with nature and the person with other persons. The mind has this creative ability to, like, overcome our separation. We can imagine that we're identical, which is sympathy. And another thing I think is interesting, now that I'm on to this, is that, you know, Adam Smith, very important, the wealth of nations, right? Is Adam Smith Scottish? He wrote this thing called The Wealth of Nation, I believe, which is very important in Western economic understanding.

[58:31]

And one of the key factors in that text is enlightened self-interest. And put the enlightened part to the side for a second and just talk about self-interest. One of his points is that, you know, if people have some self-interest in something, they can work really hard. And one of the, you know, as you know, like at Tassajara, sometimes we have like vehicles, you know, and sometimes if you like give a vehicle to somebody to take care of and say it's your vehicle, if we ever would do that, which we sometimes did in the past, the vehicle gets taken care of very well because it's theirs. But when it doesn't belong to anybody, sometimes the vehicle doesn't get taken care of very well. If nobody owns any of the houses or any of the cars, there's a tendency for selfish beings to not take care of any of them. Whereas if you give them to people, they sometimes take better care. That's the self-interest part. The enlightened part is the part that usually doesn't get conveyed.

[59:34]

And that's connected to an earlier book he wrote on moral philosophy. And the key principle of that book was compassion or sympathy. That's the part that was the enlightened part that needed to be connected to self-interest, but we forgot about that part. That book is not very well known. It's the compassion and sympathy coupled with self-interest that he thought makes a good economic system. So people don't abuse each other and exploit each other, and yet they have personal interests, so they're motivated personally. Sympathy is this ability we have to see that We're connected to people who we're separated from. We're connected to nature, which our mind makes us feel separate from. But that's a creative act to do that. Also learning to be separate, I talked about before, that's a creative act too, but that's dialogical.

[60:39]

Mommy helps us do that. So after mommy helps us feel that we've got a self, Through our loving relationship with our mother, we have a self cut off from others. Now we have to start reversing the process and seeing that we're not cut off from others. Anyway, that's my scholastic footnote. Yes? Can you say more about using the imagination to unite self and other? Yes. Well, part of my curiosity is that you can use your imagination to imagine anything. That's right. So how would you go about using it to, you know, to... I just wonder, is there any people who can elucidate that in curriculum? I think your question is that it seems like you could imagine that you could imagine...

[61:40]

The imagination could be used in such a way that it would produce evil, right? You could use your imagination to justify, to harden your separation from other people even, and to imagine that they're even more separate from you than you think now, so you could be even more cruel than you're able to be now. Imagination could be involved there, right? So how can imagination be used to promote... Yeah, you said that yesterday and it struck me then because so much of this work seems to be kind of stripping away what we imagine or what's illusory and then here is this idea of actually using the imagination to get closer to the truth. Let me say this provisionally.

[62:45]

That the nature of imagination is such that one of its principal functions is actually that it runs through. humans and runs through nature. It is that kind of creative force to connect things. It is the interdependent. You could say that one way to understand imagination is that it is interdependence in our mind. And interdependence is at core, in a sense, ethical or moral, because it is at core recognizing and coming out of mutual dependency. That's how imagination is not just the thought of interdependence. It actually is the interdependence in your mind. That's really good, but that's provisional. So it's in there, that quality of mind.

[63:56]

And this is... This is creation in our mind, and creation is, by nature, interdependent. By the way, the word nature means, the root of the word nature is to be born. Okay? Yes? So what you're saying is, if you have an imaging of something that's unless they're wonderful, like something you can have, or what have you. It's just partial. Right. Part of imagination is just the basic thing of making images. But the essence of the process, I would say, is that that making of the process is sponsored at its core by mutual dependency and interdependence. and therefore harmony. And this harmony is there before we're born.

[64:59]

And when we're born, harmony appears in our mind as our imagination, which can make images through interdependence. But the essence of the process, the essence of the naturing or the birthing process is this interdependence, which has a natural, ethical, you know, sympathetic, compassionate ramification. So that's why, you know, there's something good about getting in touch with your imagination. Yes? As you mentioned this before in a different way, if you once asked a question, how do we intend the universe to be? Right. In many ways, the imagination is intended rather to... Yes, imagination structures our intention or gives images to our intention.

[66:06]

Imagination is a way that we can bring moral principles into the sensory world. Because we have a lot of moral principles or moral theories. Imagination is how we translate them into the way we eat, the way we cook, the way we leave the room, the way we shake hands, the way we brush our teeth. that our imagination could help us translate these principles into the sensory world, and then also check to see if the sensory world is in correspondence with these principles. So the imagination can go both ways to unfold our motivation to realize what we think is most important in our life. Yeah? Maybe you have something in common with... ultimate reality in the sense of all possibilities. Mm-hmm.

[67:12]

Yeah, right. Say that again. They have some kind of amputation, right. Yes, right. There's some kind of imputation involved there. That's right. Yes? Yeah, I think so. Is that okay? If you ask the question from yesterday? Can a sentient being remember the experience of groups saying such and so also? Can a sentient being remember a glimpse of suchness? Let's say you're right, okay?

[68:26]

That you can't remember it. And let's say in the first place that it's not an experience. Okay? But let's say you understand it. So there's a point in time. There you are. Your name's David and you understand suchness. So then you get changed by that. That understanding is something that changes you. Well, ten seconds later, maybe you're still changed. And so that's the memory of it. The real point is that you're transformed. So, and if you had any feeling for that transformation, then you'd remember that transformation. But what you saw, you didn't see anything. You just were disabused of the way you usually see things. Therefore, you understood suchness. You understood. And that was something that you did understand.

[69:28]

I mean, you know, your mind started working differently then. And so you changed. And so there's memory in the sense that that change doesn't go nowhere. But it wouldn't necessarily be a, what do you call it, it wouldn't necessarily have an image associated with it that was the experience, although the experience might have been in relationship to an image. So the one that comes to mind is this guy is sweeping the ground, right? And a pebble goes flying and hits a bamboo and goes... And he understands. So he maybe remembers, on that day, when I heard the stone striking the bamboo, I understood. So he maybe remembers the day that he understood, the day that he felt differently about everything. That's the nice thing about this thing is that the important part of it doesn't get forgotten.

[70:49]

You might forget. Was it bamboo or was it wisteria? I can't remember now what the stone hit, but I know that ever since I've been like this. And you know how that is, right? Yes, teacher, it's so wonderful. I think so too. But I can't remember exactly what happened. But it wasn't what happened that was the experience. It was understanding what happened. So you don't lose that. It transforms you. And the transformation can be deepened. So that's what these bodhisattvas do, is after that transformation is deepened, they start, then they go entering into the, interacting with the skandhas and the atanas and the dhatus, you know, and seeing if they can, you know, interact with, live among sentient beings and keep their eye on the Heart Sutra. So their eyes on the Mahayana while they're living among beings.

[71:54]

But because they see it, that transformation is always... It's in their spiritual memory. Now, it actually would then eventually transform your actual body, eventually. You actually would eventually see differently, finally. But until then, basically, you maybe see the same, but you're psychically changed. Just one second, I wanted to say something. Oh, it's just one of those good things that I forgot. Yes? I'm not exactly sure how to phrase it, but at some point I began to hear you also saying to not see things as external and not internal either. Yeah. So that confused me a little bit. So... Well, internal is like me and my insides.

[72:56]

Yeah. Or like me, seeing something as an external object is like seeing it outside yourself, but also inside you can say my feelings and feel like there's you in your feelings. Like there's a subject of the feeling of pain. So don't see internal means, don't see that there's you with the insides or you with an outside. That's what I meant. Does that make sense? So it's really, I mean, it's really just your mind. I mean, that's what you keep saying. Yeah, right. It's everything. All things are mind. So feelings are mind. Colors are mind. Ideas are mind. Sounds are mind. Everything's mind. In other words, so nothing's external. There's no objects. So there's no subject and objects. So there's not duality and so on. non-duality, and then we don't even hold to that and make that an object that we hold onto.

[73:57]

Okay? Yes? One of my talks, I emphasize practicing selflessness. I'm repeating it for the tape. I found that you can find several states of different parts of selflessness when you start meditating, when you start abowing. So, well, I'll explain again this different state of selflessness, especially in that. Could I explain the different kinds of selflessness or the different... Can I explain about selflessness in the Zendo?

[75:02]

Yes. Well, the first thing is that when you get to the door, leave yourself in the shoe rack. Before you go into the door, put yourself on the shoe rack. Okay, with your shoes? Huh? Yeah, well, that's the first step. And then the next thing to do is when you get to the door to Zendo, see if you actually did leave it behind. Okay? See if you've got a self when you get to the door to Zendo. Okay? Now, if you can't find it, I don't think it would be good to just stay at the doorway because other people are probably trying to get in. And maybe... And maybe it's good for you just to go in anyway, but at least you know at the door you checked and you couldn't find it. Now, is the reason why you couldn't find it because you are unfamiliar with what you think it is or because you look for what you think it is and couldn't find it?

[76:06]

Then you can check that. Maybe wait to get to your seat before you get into that because you might not be able to find your seat if you're working on it all the way to your seat. When you get seated, start looking and see if you can feel... this sense of self. See if you can find something about it. Okay? I was talking to Leslie about, in studying this psychology book about the self, the formation of the self, affect regulation and the forges of the self, there's a chapter called the dialogic self. Can I tell you about that? The self that arises through dialogue, And one of the quotes at the beginning of the text, what do you call those things above the beginning of a chapter that they put in there? Epigraphs. There's an epigraph, and one of the psychologists says, he says that the feeling of shame is one of the most helpful things to bring attention to and develop the sense of self.

[77:13]

He said, the radical disruption of continuity created by a sense of self surfaces. Sense of shame. The radical discontinuity created by the sense of shame helps identify and develop the sense of self. So it's like, you know, usually you're walking from your house to the zendo, right? You might not feel that you have carrying your sense of self all the way to the zendo. It's, you know, that's part of the continuity of your existence from your cabin to the zendo. You have this sense of continuity in the way you relate to the world. You know, like... I don't know about Elka, but maybe if Elka skipped all the way to the zendo, maybe Elka would say, gee, this is unusual. This is not like me to be skipping to the zendo.

[78:18]

Or if Elka walked backwards to the zendo, she might say, boy, this is not me. Or other people might say, Elka, this is unusual. This isn't like you. That's not the usual way she goes to the zendo. So if she goes the usual way to the zendo, she doesn't notice the usual way she goes to the zendo. But if she's walking the zendo even backwards, she still thinks, okay, this is me walking backwards. But if I say to Elka on her way to the zendo, I say, Elka, you are stupid the way you're walking. You're a mindless idiot. And she doesn't fight me. She goes, oh, the teacher's saying I'm mindless. She feels... And maybe... Maybe she said, well, he's right. And she feels ashamed. Why does she feel ashamed? Because there's a discontinuity of who she thought she was. She thought she was walking to the Zendo OK, you know. But she didn't notice that she thought she was walking to the Zendo okay until she was criticized and felt ashamed.

[79:24]

Then she realized this is discontinuity who she is. Then she realizes, oh, I thought I was somebody else before this, but I didn't realize it. Now I see who I think I am. That's a shame one. Another one is like when you're trying to be good, like maybe a good Zen student, and maybe you get to the Zendo on time, And again, the teacher says, you know, you're trying to show up to other students, you know. And you feel like, no, I wasn't. I was just trying to be on time. You're really arrogant. You're trying to make yourself look better to get promoted. So then again, you didn't notice. You just thought you were going to Zen. You didn't think that that was your idea of yourself as a good Zen student. But then when you got falsely accused of being a social climbing Zen monk, You say, no, that's not my sense of self. But you didn't know it before you got criticized falsely and had to say, no, that's not me. I'm this way. So again, that's a way to get in touch with yourself.

[80:25]

Now, if you find that self, then let's see what it is, okay? When you go sit in the Zendo, do you take a person with you or not? Do you leave it at the shoe rack and walk in without it or not? Do you have a sense of self Do you have a customary way of behaving in a zendo? Do you have your style of bowing? Do you have your seat and your orioke? Do you have your way of doing things? Do you have your way of sitting? Is there some continuity in there in how you manage yourself and take care of yourself there? If there is, what is that? What is that continuity? Is there a continuity that you feel ashamed about or proud of or insulted about or fight about? Is there something there? Okay? This is Zen. Today. We can go on, but that's just a sample. Pardon? Yeah, it was.

[81:31]

It's strong, anyway. It's strong enough that you can see... This is my self and this is the behavior and they don't work together. So you have a clear enough image of what the self is. It's strong enough so that this thing doesn't go with it very well. You don't know how to cope with it for a while. And you notice that when you... When you go from being able to function pretty smoothly to being ashamed, you're somewhat, what do you call it, non-functional for a little while. When you're really ashamed, to some extent, you're a little bit non-functional. Now, in Abhidharma, in Buddhist teaching, it's considered to be a wholesome dharma to be ashamed. But being non-functional is a wholesome dharma in a sense. Wholesome. Shame is a wholesome dharma. Because shame is like you have a sense of yourself and then certain behaviors are not appropriate for this sense of self.

[82:35]

You respect yourself. You think you're doing pretty well. So that would allow you to feel ashamed. If you have no good opinion of yourself, you can't feel ashamed. And also because you have a good opinion of yourself, you think you're worthwhile taking care of. Therefore, you're careful to get along with people so you have a sense of decorum because you don't want to hurt yourself by being too much of an outlaw. So you're not an outlaw. You're an upstanding, upright student at the same time, and you're pretty good, and therefore you can be ashamed. But when you actually have a case of shame, you're somewhat disoriented because your mode of behavior is in question now. So you have to stop. So shame is wholesome because it makes you be able to call yourself into question and not just say, you know, okay, I'm ashamed and just keep going the same way. You stop for a second. You put that drink down or you put that cigarette down. Or you stop talking that way because you feel ashamed.

[83:38]

Now, you don't do it right away sometimes. Sometimes you finish the sentence. Even though you say, I'm ashamed of the way I'm talking to this person, but I can't stop in the middle of the sentence. But sometimes you start feeling ashamed and you stop right in the middle, boom. There's a discontinuity in your speech perhaps. Or you raise your hand to strike in an unskillful, unkind way. And you feel ashamed and your hand stops. Right? This is wholesome. You feel ashamed. Your sense of self is getting shaken. You're starting to become aware of it. No, no, your sense of self is becoming clarified. But your behavior, which was happening when you weren't aware of your sense of self, is being destabilized. So that's part of studying the self is some of your behaviors get destabilized, perhaps. But that's good because the behaviors that get destabilized are the behaviors that occur when you're not aware of yourself.

[84:46]

The lack of awareness of yourself gives rise to certain behaviors and those behaviors, if criticized, will bring your attention to yourself and you will stop doing those, perhaps, which is good. Don't you think? Behaviors that come from unconsciousness, it's good if they get destabilized and become non-functional. And you switch back to awareness of the self, which you hold anyway, so why not admit it? This is called uprightness and honesty, right? But be gentle, too. Don't say, oh, you've got to sense yourself. No. Gentle with it, honest with it, aware of it, and then a new set of behaviors will come. All right? It's like that Zen story. What is it? This samurai comes to the Zen teacher and says, teach me the difference between heaven and hell. And the teacher says, teach you the difference between heaven and hell?

[85:53]

You? You? You aren't worth my time. Get out of here, you moron. What? You're talking to a noble samurai that way? Well, he raises his sword and the teacher says, this is hell. He sets his sword down, bursts into tears, says, thank you very much. The teacher says, this is heaven. His behavior was disrupted. He felt ashamed. He saw the self. He entered heaven. Because there isn't one. So relax. Wait a second. You haven't asked a question for two practice periods.

[86:54]

Go ahead. Yes? I just remembered an image that I saw in a pramaline yoga book about the Mahara, a fish with huge devouring jaws, and it was used as a symbol for the unbridled imagination. There was this idea that the imagination was finally furnished around the grill that was struck with force. For instance, if someone overpowerfully imagines that faculty was not very upright in their day-to-day life, the people lost themselves the products of their imagination. Right. It was to be a destructive thing. Right. So the unbridled imagination can be very destructive. Well, like, you know, the people who created the bomb, right? And even Oppenheimer, who had a lot of compassion, still... participated in creating tremendous imagination in creating that bomb.

[87:58]

And it was a very destructive force, right? So that's why we have to get to what I would say is the essential quality of imagination, which is its interdependent quality. So we must have sympathy united with our imagination. Otherwise, imagination could be put to selfish ends. and could do anything. And a lot of people say that a lot of these guys, you know, like I went to the Nevada test site, and a lot of what they say about there is a lot of these scientists, the way they get their left brain exercise program in is to do these nuclear tests, you know, to like, you know, to go through the process, the technical process, the right brain process, of doing these tests, of not just imagining them, but actually doing these tests, these nuclear tests.

[89:00]

And it's an exercise of their energy, of their imagination. And it's hard for them to give that up. So yeah, they need the interdependent side to be the focal point of the imaginative process. Brooks? I was going to ask you a question about this shame. Shame? Yes? So someone's walking to the Zendo and hasn't experienced it. Shame, but so this is, this is discontinuing the public. And they had insight into the habit cell. Right. Yeah. So they have a usual way of walking to the Zendo, usual set of opinions in themselves, and suddenly they feel shame. Now, if you felt shame all the time, if you had a sort of steady state of shame, then I think you would have a steady state of awareness of yourself.

[90:06]

Can I continue a little bit before you start? So if you had a steady state of shame, you'd be aware of yourself all the time. Because you keep saying, geez, I'm not living up to what I should be. I didn't do very well. I wasn't very kind. I wasn't very attentive. I'm not living up to my potential as a bodhisattva. So I'm ashamed, I'm ashamed, I'm ashamed. But you'd have a sense of yourself and what your job was and what your thing was. So in that case, it wouldn't be a discontinuity. But this is a case of a child who was going along, you know, playing, they're playing in the play yard, they're having a good time, and then suddenly they raise the hammer to hit the other kid and their mom comes over and says, and there's a big discontinuity. That's because they weren't feeling ashamed and they weren't aware of themselves. But they had a sense of self, which came to their attention suddenly and dramatically and discontinuously when it was brought to their attention that this is

[91:14]

bad boy or whatever you know then suddenly what me bad boy I was just you know doing my little boy thing that you said was good just a few minutes ago you know so then he's and then he becomes somewhat non-functional and depressed and so on and so forth but he gets to know himself a little bit and then he starts to refine his sense of self a little bit too so yes go ahead It can be afflictive to be aware of oneself or conscious of oneself. Self-consciousness can be afflictive. So if you're going along with your sense of self and you're not self-conscious, then you're afflicted and you don't even know it. So you can not be aware of yourself and be afflicted.

[92:10]

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