I felt that I should speak of this, what do you call it, this phrase we often hear of either not being able to see the forest for the trees or sometimes not being able to see the particular trees for the forest. So I feel a need to go back and forth between describing the forest, sometimes giving the overview of the whole forest, and then after talking about the forest, people say, well, let's look at some trees, shall we? And then sometimes we start looking at the trees and people forget about the forest. So then we have to go back and say, well, these trees are in a forest. And in particular, I feel that to some extent, the Buddhist teaching tells us about the forest.

[01:07]

And then it says, now let's look at a tree. And then it starts looking at the tree in minute details. So you even sometimes forget about the tree. And I feel that, I was feeling that what this teaching, about in the scene, there is just a scene, is a yogic instruction, not just to look at the tree, but to look at the part of the tree which is, what do you call the cambium layer of a tree? You know, inside the bark of a tree, between the bark and the the storage area of the tree, the main part of the tree. There's a layer called the cambium layer. And I, in biology, I was taught that that's the living part of the tree, the most vital part of the tree.

[02:09]

You can snap off the leaves and they'll grow back, but if you take away that cambium layer, the tree is dead. And the root of the word cambium is which means to exchange. It's the area of exchange. And I feel that this instruction on just letting the scene be the scene, as you get into a phenomenal experience, In that phenomenal experience, there is a place, a living place in that phenomenal experience. And the living place in that phenomenal experience is where creation or birth and death or dependent co-arising meets with the conventional world.

[03:16]

There's an exchange there. And in that exchange, phenomena arise. So, when I'm talking about this now, I'm kind of like focusing in on the cambium layer of experience. But I'm also talking about the whole forest because all phenomena have this same living experience. interface between the conventional designation and creation. Creation is, you know, of course, all over the place. Dependent co-arising is the principle by which we describe the way everything arises. It's the basic principle of the arising of anything.

[04:20]

And it's all over the place. It's all pervasive among all arisings. But then in this field of coming and going life, there is this conventional designation or words. And when they interact with this creative process, phenomena precipitate. Like a... a fluid, you know, a fluid of possibilities that arises and ceases and rises and ceases. And in that fluid, there's this little stimulus called words, images. And when they touch that surface, the surface precipitates into little crystals, which also still come and go. And this is how phenomena occur.

[05:22]

But at this place of interface where phenomena are precipitated, an error occurs in the human mind. So the human mind has the ability to make a universe where there aren't things, really, into a universe where there are things. But then an error occurs where we have this conventionality kind of sits on creativity and starts to suffocate it. It seems to suffocate it. But the Buddha also taught not only does this interface the place where things are born but also there is both a sticking but also a non-sticking.

[06:58]

That there is actually The actuality, the situation that's always going on is that creation is not being stifled by conventionality. The conventional world is not oppressing, is not suffocating creation. And If we look at the process of where creation or where the pinnacle arising and words, conventional designations interact, even if we see that stifling quality, if we look carefully, we will see that the suchness is right there. The stifling is sometimes seen.

[08:01]

Is sometimes seen. But the non-interference, the non-sticking between conventionality and creativity is always there. That's what those three characteristics taught by Buddha are saying. So, again, referring to the comment that I got that this description sounded kind of analytical and scientific and so on, I think it is, it's actually, first of all, I think, artistic. that these words of the Buddha, that all phenomena have three characteristics, is like Buddha's art. It's Buddha's poetry. And it's a form of art which is itself an I. It's a kind of art that's an I. And with that I,

[09:21]

you can see that right in the error is the truth. Or right in conventionality being misconstrued as creativity. Right in that error of conventionality being stuck to creativity, you can see the ultimate truth It's right there. And Buddha's instruction is to give us an eye to look at this place where both error, where the world is created in error, and where the truth is realized. The same place. Conventionality, the world of convention, is wonderful because it both covers the truth and reveals the truth. Words cover the truth and reveal the truth.

[10:28]

Words engage us with the world and disentangle us from the world. We learn words and we engage with the world and get stuck in the world, then we hear other words which bring us to look at the process of entanglement and those words release us from the world. But in error, it's like, and I often use my hands for this, in error it's like there's creation and then one hand is creation and the other hand is conventionality and it covers creation. And it stifles creation. It constricts creation. It suffocates creation. It strangles creation. It chokes creation. And The word for anxiety means to suffocate or choke or strangle.

[11:37]

So we feel anxiety when creation is subjected to conventionality too heavily, too rigidly, too adhesively. But if we look carefully at this situation of error and anxiety, we can see from another angle that actually the conventionality doesn't really ever interfere with creativity. It is actually just part of it. But it's hard to look at this sticky, anxious situation. We'd rather look at something else. And I would say... Okay, look at something else. And when you're comfortable, come back and we can look at this. And the Buddha is offering art to give you an eye so you can practice science and see the truth.

[12:39]

And another part of this is that as you feel anxiety about your actual life which is being constricted by conventional world, you're afraid that it's going to get worse. And it could. It could get even more stifled, perhaps. So it's hard to look at the situation. But once again, you know, The words bind us and words release us. And people sometimes don't want to hear words about how we're bound and go into detail about how hung up we are. It's not pleasant to get into it and feel it.

[13:51]

By paying attention to these three characteristics, we will realize the other three things which the Buddha taught, which are that this imputational, this conventionality, this mere conceptuality that we always have accompanying our experience, that it doesn't really have an essence. It lacks any substance or own being. And also, dependent co-arising also doesn't have any substance, and even suchness doesn't have any substance. So the truth of phenomena is that it has no substance. It has no essence. So not only is creativity released from oppression by our conventional mind, But even the creativity itself is released from the oppression of being creativity, of being something.

[14:57]

Even creativity is free of creativity. And even the freedom of creativity from being oppressed, that freedom itself is free of itself. And it has no essence either. Now in this scripture, which unlocks the secrets or the mysteries, One of the main points of the Sutra is to point out that the Buddha first taught in a way that was incomplete. Or you could say, sometimes they say, interpretable. He didn't explicitly say what he says in this Sutra, which is that all phenomena lacks own being that all phenomena does not arise and does not cease that all phenomena from the start is quiet and all phenomena is inherently nirvanic every phenomena is fundamentally liberation

[16:18]

He didn't say that in the early teachings. And this sutra is saying, listen to that teaching and then go back to all the other teachings that he ever gave and put this teaching inside of it. It's like one of the examples is like putting ginger extract into medicine to make it really potent. So all the teachings, all the teachings that you've ever heard the Buddha gave, go back with those teachings and then put into this teaching ginger extract of these three kinds of essenceless, these three kinds of lack of own being. Put into that teaching, put into the teaching that this teaching has no own being and that all phenomena that you're studying, that the Buddha said to study, like breath, body, feelings, concepts, whatever you're studying, put the teaching in there that this is, whatever you're studying is already, before you start studying, it's already liberated and liberation itself.

[17:37]

That makes the medicine really good. Another example is, it's like putting some special sweetness into a cake, which makes the cake more satisfying. And it's also like space. Like someone was saying, it's like this teaching about the three characteristics of all phenomena. It's like there really is space between the things which are usually seen to be stuck together. And even that space, that freedom from adhesion itself, that freedom from suffocation and anxiety, even that freedom has space in it. So all the teachings are very spacious and don't interfere with anything. So now I'd like to give

[18:41]

Bodhidharma's instruction which is just like Buddha's instruction in my mind but also I think in some ways draws out the teaching of the sutra which occurred between when Buddha gave his instruction and Bodhidharma gave his so Bodhidharma said to his student Vekha He said, outside, cease all involvements. Inside, have no coughing or sighing in the mind. With a mind like a wall, thus you enter the way. So outside, like, if you feel like, you know, you're in the conventional world, outside, you have a sound, hear a sound, there's a sound, or there's a light.

[19:51]

Cease all involvements. Cease all involvements with that sound. That's the same as, in the herd, there's just a herd. There's no involvements. There's a color, there's a face, but there's no activity around it. There's no trying to gain anything and not being afraid of what's going to happen to you. Just the face without being concerned of what it looks like. Just the sound with no concern about what you can do with it. No involvement with sounds whatsoever. tastes, smells, touches. And inside, with your feelings, emotions, judgments, opinions, values, intentions, aversions, attractions, around those phenomena too, you don't cough or scoff or reject.

[20:59]

Okay? You don't gasp or sigh. It just... No messing around, no involvement with the internal data, which you call internal and external data. The mind becomes like a wall. Things arise and cease, but there's no involvement among them. Thus you enter the way. And I think that sometime later, some years later, Quayka came back to Bodhidharma and said, I have ceased all involvements. In other words, in the scene, there's just a scene. In the cognized, there's just a cognized.

[22:00]

In the felt, there's just a felt. In the opinion, there's just the opinion, and so on. And Bodhidharma said, Doesn't that fall into nihilism? Or couldn't that fall into nihilism? I'll finish the story and come back. And Hueca said, no, it doesn't fall into nihilism. Or it doesn't fall into a view of nothingness. And Bodhidharma said, Prove it. And Huayca said, I'm always clearly aware. Therefore, words can't reach it. Okay? That is suchness. Okay? There's words. Okay?

[23:03]

Is there nothing? No, there's not nothing. Okay? It's not nihilism. There's words. There's still words. There's words. There's not nothing. There's words. What else? Is there something else? Yes, there is awareness. There is clear awareness and words. But the words can't reach the awareness. The words don't reach, don't reach what's happening. I'm always clearly aware. It's always happening. Clear awareness is happening, but words don't reach it. There's words all over the place, but they don't reach this. They're coming and going and flying around looking for some place to stick, but they can't reach this awareness. This isn't nothing, and yet things aren't stuck together.

[24:04]

This is... Huayca realized the third characteristic of all phenomena. It's not that nothing's happening. No. Things may seem to be happening. But... there's just clear awareness of the fact that what's happening, no words reach. Now, it turns out that nothing will be happening if there's not some words. Because whenever anything happens... Words come. Conventional designation, imputational dimension is there. Anything happening, there's conventional designation. Anything, any phenomena happening, there's conventional designation. Otherwise, there's no things. There's the possibility of something happening, of some thing happening. There's a possibility of phenomenal condensation. But until there's a word, there's just possibility.

[25:10]

There's life, [...] but no things. But when there's life with things, then something happens. Have no involvements in what's happening. I don't have any. Are you saying there's nothing then? No, I don't say there's nothing. Just that there's clear awareness with no words reaching it. And then Bodhidharma says, this is the essence. Now there is no essence, but anyway, he said this is the essence. And actually that word essence could be translated instead of essence, this is the body. But the way it's translated is, this is the essence. One person translated it as, this is the essence of the mind. Another person translated it as, this is the substance of the mind. The suchness, they're saying, is the substance or essence, even though Buddha said that the ultimate lack of essence is this suchness.

[26:23]

We don't want to make this into something that has an essence. It doesn't. Phenomena don't have essence. Suchness doesn't have essence. But actually, Buddha didn't talk about in this sutra the lack of essence of phenomena. He talked about the lack of essence of the characteristics of phenomena. Because there is actually no phenomena other than these three characteristics. There is just the possibility of everything, which when it interacts with the conventional name of something, you get the thing. That's not actually the thing. But even the characteristics in this sutra are talked about as essenceless. But then Bodhidharma said apparently Chinese, maybe his Chinese wasn't good,

[27:24]

He was Indian, right? He said this is the essence or this is the substance of the mind of all the Buddhas. This is the essence or substance of the mind which all the Buddhas realize. But I think it might be better, although far out, to translate it as body. This is the body of the mind that all the Buddhas realize. In other words, you're embodying the mind of the Buddha by talking like this, by not getting caught by phenomena. You're embodying Buddha's mind. And then he said, have no doubt. Have no more doubt. Doubt no more. You have realized the body of the mind of all Buddhas. You put a mouth on the Buddha's mind just now by talking like that.

[28:30]

So if we hear about this essence, the lack of essence of phenomena, if you take that too literally, it turns into nihilism, or a view of nothingness. But that's not what it really means to be looking at this. If you look at it, you won't find a core, you won't find an essence, but if you take the view, the sutra also points out, if you take the view that there's nothing there, when you hear about these three kinds of lack of own being, then you will have trouble seeing the characteristics. You will deny the characteristics and then you won't be able to study the characteristics and then you won't be able to realize that the characteristics are empty. So don't take the view of empty and apply it. Just hear and be ready for emptiness but study the characteristics and if you study them you will realize they lack essence. And then you will understand that all phenomena lack

[29:51]

All that makes up phenomena lack essence, and all phenomena have no essence. All phenomena don't arise, and don't cease. They are from the start quiet and from the start they are nirvana. From the start everything is liberation. Everything is freedom. Everything is freedom. But in order to see that we have to study the situation of phenomena and the phenomena may look like they're very stuck By studying the stuckness, we see the space, the freedom. And we realize that they're not stuck.

[30:55]

So here's two yogic practices. In the scene, there's just a scene. In the thought, there's just a thought. In the herd, there's just a herd, this instruction. And this sutra, I feel... brings you into the living challenge, the living struggle of letting the scene just be the scene. And Bodhidharma's story also opens it up a little bit to show you how to work with phenomena outside and inside in a way that you can see this awareness that no words reach this awareness, this understanding of dependent core rising where no conventionality sits on it. This unstifled creative process. So Buddha's art is to speak in such a way as to give us an eye to look at the error of our ways and see the truth, which is right in the error.

[32:11]

Some people say to give us an eye so that the error is transformed into the truth, but I think it's more like to give us an eye to see the truth in the error, to see the ultimate truth in conventionality. To see nirvana in samsara. To see birthlessness in birth and death. To see peace in war. But it's hard to look at war and just let war be war. Actually, isn't it? Isn't it hard to look at war and just let it be war? It's very hard. But once we see peace, we can convey peace to people to show them peace in the midst of war.

[33:21]

Like the Buddha did. There were wars during his time and he taught peace. There were murderers in his time. He taught them peace. There were frightened people in his time. He taught them fearlessness. There were deluded people in his time. He taught them enlightenment. There were people who were in error about what was going on. He showed them how to look at their error and realize the truth. So, once again, here's two practices, one from Buddha, one from Bodhidharma and Huayka. You might try them. And I hope the sutra helps you understand the, you know, the cambium layer of the tree of this instruction. Maybe that's enough for starters.

[34:25]

Yes? Yes? Yeah, I was wondering, the thing about such a thing to go back to what Buddha taught and to apply this to every teacher that he gave, That is good, but the point that I want to use, that just like you were saying about the algorithm, always saying that you have to study the specific or the, you know... Conventional. Conventional. Yes. That if you do that, or not do that, but if you were told that, when you were studying the conventional, it would be, well, like the hairs on the wall of the other day, that you would not be able to experience that without having, going through that yourself. Without going through what? Well, you're close. Without going through what yourself?

[35:25]

Without going through the deconstruction of the phenomenon, the experiencing of the phenomenon. Yeah, that's right. So what he's saying is that, what this sutra is saying is that the Buddha gave his early teachings, he didn't mention that everything lacks own being. He said he taught selflessness, but he didn't mention that every phenomena is selfless. He didn't mention that. But this sutra is saying it was implied. It's sort of hidden in his teaching. Like he taught about how to analyze the experience in terms of five aggregates. He didn't say that the aggregates are empty. The heart sutra says that. But he didn't mention that.

[36:28]

So this is saying, go back to where he was talking about the aggregates and realize the Heart Sutra, where he said that these things are empty. But it doesn't mean you shouldn't study the aggregates. You should study them, but understand that the ultimate teaching is there. He didn't just teach the teaching of look at the aggregates. So the first teaching is look at the aggregates. That's what he said. And if you look at the aggregates and you see the aggregates, you don't see a self of a person. So you're relieved of that belief in a self. All you see is the aggregates. All you see is form and feeling and so on. But he didn't mention that the aggregates themselves are empty. He also talks about the Eightfold Path as a way to become relieved from self-clinging. But he didn't mention that every aspect of the Eightfold Path is also has no own being and is that the beginning of the path is already nirvana.

[37:31]

Didn't mention that. So just saying, go back and understand that that's implied there. Otherwise, you would have to say that his teachings are incomplete. This is saying, go back and understand that they aren't incomplete really. It's just that the meanings implied are hidden. So this sutra starts with the characteristics. It starts with look at phenomena and look at the characteristics. It actually doesn't start there. It actually starts with Ascanas, but I skipped that part because I wanted to go right to the characteristics because I thought you're ready. Yes. He didn't say that, but I'd say that he said that all phenomena have these three characteristics.

[38:53]

Okay? He explained those characteristics. Okay? Then he went on to say that there's three... Okay? Do you follow that? You look like you don't. Are you okay? No? First he said, all phenomena have three characteristics. Okay? We're lost here. I'm not getting a response. Then the next chapter he says that this bodhisattva asks him, how come you taught all these teachings, you know, taught this and this and this, and he goes through all the teachings of the early scriptures, and then he said, and you taught this thing that all phenomena, I take it back. He did say it. All phenomena lack inherent existence. He did say it. I take it back. All phenomena do lack inherent characteristic. And also the characteristics of all phenomena also lack inherent existence.

[39:54]

So the phenomena and the characteristics. Yeah. Now, you said that you start talking about the essence of mind. That is a mind of phenomena. I started being lost when you started talking about the essence of mind. I think that mind is phenomenon, yes. Mind is phenomenon, yes, okay? So, Bodhidharma is saying to Huayka, you have realized the essence of the suchness of mind. And the suchness of mind is the suchness of phenomena. But if you realize the suchness of mind, you realize the suchness of all phenomena. Once you see the suchness of mind or the suchness of a sound or a color, the suchness of anything is the same suchness as the suchness of everything.

[41:01]

Okay? So when he realized the suchness, which they call the essence, but I don't like that word because it doesn't have the suchness of mind, the essence of mind is that it doesn't have an essence, so... Okay? But he realized that, so he's all set. Now one other thing I wanted to mention, which I said yesterday, I want to say it again, is to relate this talk of this sutra to Zen talk, okay? The thoroughly established character of every phenomena, okay? Buddha said every phenomena has three characteristics. The third one is the thoroughly established character, or the perfected character. Every phenomena has a perfected character. Every phenomena has a character which is also characteristic of all other phenomena. Okay? That's the third one.

[42:04]

That thoroughly established character of all phenomena is... Now you tell me, in terms of the other two phenomena, what is the thoroughly established character... of all phenomena in terms of the first two types. What is it? Somebody tell me. Huh? No, suchness, that's the name of it, but it's not in terms of the other two. In terms of the other two, what is it? Huh? It's the other two not being stuck together. Okay? That's the suchness. Okay? It's the lack, it's the absence of this strong adhesion between convention and dependent core arising. That's the suchness of all phenomena. That lack of a speaking starts. Dropped off body and mind is the thoroughly established state of all phenomena. We don't make body-mind dropped off happen.

[43:06]

We sit wholeheartedly and let what's happening be what's happening and dropped off body and mind is already thoroughly established we just stop insulting it by trying to do something to make it happen we hear the teaching body and mind dropped off is the case it is the case this is called genjo koan genjo koan means the case the koan is presently manifested Genjo means presently manifested or right now. Genjo koan means the koan is solved. The truth has been realized. The body-mind has been dropped off. Right now. So, dropped off body and mind, suchness and thoroughly established are the same thing.

[44:09]

Thoroughly established character. And since the Buddha said the thoroughly established character is thoroughly established throughout the entire phenomenal world, throughout the whole conventional world, the whole conventional world has this dropped-off body and mind quality. In other words, the whole conventional world, each little element in it is inherently nirvana. Okay? So we sit in devotion to the perfected quality of all existence. We sit to realize what's already so, namely body-mind dropped off. So when we wholeheartedly sit, body-mind is dropped off. When we half-heartedly sit, body-mind is dropped off. When we don't sit at all, body-mind is dropped off. It's always dropped off. The question is whether you're signing up and according with it or not.

[45:10]

If you say, I don't think so, then you don't think so. Unless you're kidding. Okay. I think Sarah was next. I don't know. I think you were. So, we're not supposed to extricate the conventional function. You're not supposed to extricate the conventional designation from dependent core rising. We're just supposed to realize the space between it. Yeah, which is already there. And then our engagement with the conventional, when I was wondering if this is how, say, in K63, this is arriving today. This is how we did, this is how we can be with the international world.

[46:11]

She's talking, she's relating this to case 63, okay? I would say a little bit differently. Case 63 is about what happens after you realize suchness. How would you conduct yourself afterwards? So first of all, on your way to realizing suchness, on your way to realizing the great death, that's when you have to say, I'm still alive, and I'm suffering. And the reason why I'm suffering is because dependent core arising is covered over by conventionality. I don't see dependent core arising. Or rather, I see dependent core arising, but I see it through adhesion to the conventional, which is dependent core rising covered with hair. It's not conventional. You can't see dependent core rising, really, because it's not really something there. But you can understand it as beauty.

[47:14]

but not as beauty that's in something, but it's not the way the thing looks. It's creation that's so beautiful, but you can't see it. Everything you look at, dependent core rising is there, but you can't see dependent core rising. If you think dependent core rising is the face you're looking at, then you have problems. So we say beauty is skin deep, but actually it's the word beauty is skin deep. Beauty is bottomless. It goes all the way throughout the whole universe. And we tap into it through every phenomena because every phenomena has this beautiful quality. Namely, the pentacle arising. And you can see the beauty when you see the pentacle arising without the word on top of it. But when you see dependent core rising without the word on top of it, you don't see the thing. You see beauty. You can't see beauty. You just understand it's beauty.

[48:16]

So anyway, if you keep looking at this occluded beauty and feel the pain of that, you just keep watching that, keep watching that. And someday, somebody says, come here, Sarah. You take a little walk and you look back and see it from the side. You know, it's like right now, is my right hand's dependent core rising, my left hand's conventionality. Okay? But if you look at it from the side, you see, oh, conventionality's not covering dependent core rising. It's just right nearby all the time. It doesn't obscure it. And without it obscuring it, I can't see it, but I know it. I mean, I understand it. I mean, I feel encouraged by it. I mean, I'm free. Then you're dead. Then you've gone through the great death. Now you're dead. Now that you're dead, you come up from this freedom of your life from conventionality.

[49:20]

Conventionality is not any longer squelching, suffocating you. But you can't just stay in this freedom. You have to bring it back into conventionality, which is the light. the daylight. Conventionality is so you can see. You can't stay in the darkness of beauty, the darkness of creation. You have to come out of the darkness into the light of conventionality. But you have understood that they're not stuck together. So now conventionality doesn't interfere with you. So that's why those guys act so funny. That's why they don't act like you'd expect somebody to act after they went through this great transformation. of dying to the world of adhesions and being born to the world of freedom. They don't act like they're supposed to act. They don't act like free people are supposed to act. They act like free people act beyond our idea and our stories about what they should be like.

[50:21]

It's the actuality of their realizations. not our idea of it. Even though the ideas are flying all over the page, that's why, for them too, that's why it's so interesting what they're doing, because they're not doing what anybody expects. They're just being old, kind of weird guys, or gals, you know? You know, cooking little vegetable dishes and stuff like that, you know? This is like great compassion. Yeah, would you please pass the oil? A little bit more oil, please, and some salt. Thank you. This is like, you know, great realization. And would you turn the heat down, please? I'll call Steve and then Liz. Was there somebody over there? Not yet. You'll come back. Steve? It seems like conventional reality sort of evolved as a kind of way for sentient beings to sort of have control over their environment.

[51:37]

Yes. And I'm wondering, this is the same question that I keep asking, how is it to make a transition where you can still use the conventional reality to still give up and bother, as O. V. Darwin's instructions. I mean, that seems easy enough to understand. Well, in practice, it's not so easy to do in the context of the . But not when we're doing activity that seems that seems to be, of its nature, doing, that we are trying to control things. Right. So your question is a blossoming of Sarah's question. Your question is, after the Great Death, how could you behave in the light, in the light of conventional world? How are you going to use conventional world, how are you going to relate to conventional world after you've let go of it?

[52:39]

Right? Yes. No, you do get involved in it, okay? You do get involved in it, but you are coming from having let go of being involved in it. So it is still involvement though. Like someone asked one Zen teacher, you know, what's it like after you've left the world and come back into confusion? And he said, the broken mirror will not shine again. The fallen leaf can't climb back up onto the tree and attach to the branch. You do not do it any differently. It's the same. Okay.

[53:41]

Yeah, well, there never was a self before either, so it's the same, just like it was before. Of course, you are, you know, you're bringing great benefit to everybody, but with no advantage over them. No advantage. You're really in the light. You're just one of the folks. One of the folks. And it's not, you know, what is it? You can't say, I can't say it's going to be like this because it has no characteristics. It has no characteristics. There's no way to say, well, see how he does it this way and she does it that way and he's gone to great death and she hasn't. It's not like that. It wouldn't be, it's not like that. The way you're going to be able to tell how you work with conventional reality after you've gone through the great death, the way you're going to be able to tell how it works is by going through it.

[54:49]

Then you'll see, oh, this is how I do it. You know you've gone through it. You know words don't reach it. And then you know you pick up the words again. But you don't do them some special way. It's just that you're coming from a place, you're using words from a place where words don't reach. And you're perfectly competent about that. And you know you love everybody. And you know you're willing to give your life for everybody. But you look like everybody else. You don't give any more blood at the donor place than some of the other drug addicts do. And then somebody says, oh, yes, you do. Dalai Lama gave three quarts yesterday. You know? And I say, well, but that drug addict gave a gallon and a half. So that's the thing. Three quarts is the mark of a Buddha. It's three quarts. If you do more or less than that, it's not right. No. Buddha does not have any characteristics. There's no sign, no way you can tell what the Buddha is. That's why it is Buddha. But Buddha knows, Buddha knows, you know,

[55:54]

I'm definitely committed to everybody and I have no fear and no attachments and I'm content. Believe me. You can test me if you want to. I'm here to be tested. But in the meantime, I have a few things to say. Just a second here. There are three characteristics of all phenomena and so on. The Buddha's got something to say. But if you don't want to listen, what do you want? Let's hear. You want some blood here. I can't give you too much because I have to give another talk later today. The way you can tell is by going through, the way you're going to be able to tell how to handle words and conventionality after you let go of it is by letting go and then seeing how you do it. Like one time I was driving out of here during a practice period. I don't know if it was during or at the end, but I was driving out. The practice period had had some effect on me. I was driving out and I was listening to a radio up in the mountains and I was listening to a gospel station. and they have these country western gospel songs, right?

[56:57]

You've heard this before, and the guy's singing a song something like, would Jesus in his gospel show drive a Mercedes Benz? Would Jesus on his gospel show wear a Rolex watch? Boom, you know? That's the question, you know? If you were, if you drop body and mind, if you like had gone, got crucified, got crucified and then reborn, okay? Would you wear a Rolex? Would you drive a Mercedes? Some people say, no, no. You drive a Volkswagen, but not one of those new ones. Not one of those cute new ones, you know. Just like, you know, a Jetta or something. Like Leslie, right? A Jetta, it has to be a Jetta. Maybe a Golf, but you don't get one of those, like, new cute little bug things. And you don't drive a Mercedes. That's not what a Buddha would do. No, you don't know what a Buddha would do. You can't be sure Buddha's going to wear a Timex or Casio. You don't know. I thought the only way you know what Jesus would do on his TV show or his radio show, the only way you're going to know is to be Jesus.

[58:07]

Then you know what Jesus would do. Otherwise, it's just guessing. Well, I think enlightened people do this or enlightened people do that. Well, yeah, that's just conventionality again put on top of enlightenment. Go ahead, do it. No problem. Because enlightenment is not going to get squashed by no matter how much conventionality you put on it. You know, you're not going to squash it. Because just turn around the side and you see, it's in there saying, I didn't get squashed. I'm okay. Thank you. But if you look at it from the wrong angle, you think, oh no, we just killed, we killed it. You know, it's all... It's not. The Buddha said it's not. You can't get it. No matter... pain, suffering, any condition, any phenomena that appears in the world, there is never, it never crushes the suchness which is thoroughly established throughout The entire conventional world is totally pervaded by suchness, by freedom, by nirvana.

[59:11]

That's what the sutra is saying. So all you've got to do is take Bodhidharma's simple instruction, just look at phenomena. Just like sit upright, stand upright, walk upright, think upright, and pay attention at what's happening, and you'll see nirvana right in there, even though there's error. Right now. Even though right now what you see is, oh, it's all stuck, and I'm afraid, and I'm suffocated, and I'm dishonest, oh, it's a mess, you know. Just look at it. And take the instructions, listen to the Buddhist word, which will help you look more clearly, give you a nice pie, you know. Shobo Genzo, right? Dogi Dharma's book, you know. Shobo Genzo means a treasury of true eyes. He writes all these chapters. In each chapter, he gives you some eyes to put on to look at your life. Put those glasses on. Look at your life. Look at your life.

[60:13]

Not your life and then something else. Your life right now. Look at it. Look at it. Look at the color. Listen to the sound. Smell. Taste. Touch. Think. Just do that without trying to get anything, and you'll have a miracle of vision, a miracle of hearing, a miracle of tasting, a miracle of touching, a miracle of smelling, and a miracle of thinking. A miracle will happen if you just devote yourself to what's happening. Just let it be that way. Then you can sing the Heart Sutra and you can say, no eyes, no ears, no nose, no tongue. That's the way it'll be for you. You'll see the nirvana of each thing. That's what they say. I'm convinced. Are you? You are? Great. I think...

[61:14]

I see Max's hand, but I think Liz is before Max. Right, Liz? Was there a hand over here on the east yet? Liz? So, say we're having the difficulty of seeing the nirvana. Having difficulty seeing the nirvana, yes. Mm-hmm. Having the difficulty of seeing nirvana, by the way, that's called samsara. In samsara, we're suffering. We can't see the nirvana. We just see the birth of suffering. Okay? And the death of happiness. We don't see nirvana yet. Okay? We can know dependent core rising, but we know our... We can know dependent core rising, but... by mistaking it for, by strongly adhering it to the conventional. So we get this conventional version of dependent core arising.

[62:17]

Okay? That's how you can know dependent core arising. That's not dependent core arising, but that's how you can know it. You can't know the actuality of dependent core arising. Okay? Can I interject that? Thank you. Please go on. Okay. That's right. Just pay attention to what's happening. Okay, so she said, if some affliction arises as you're paying attention to what's happening, okay, for example, if you're paying attention to affliction, then there would be affliction happening. So you're paying attention to an affliction, or you're paying attention to something else, but you feel afflicted in your attention pain. All right?

[63:18]

And she's saying, would it be helped to kind of have some bigger view, or remember that there's something bigger than this? Or that there's nirvanas right on the horizon? It's coming, I can feel it coming. Huh? Remember, maybe there's something stuck here. I don't know what's stuck, but just allow that up. Something's stuck, yeah, or even, let's say I'm looking at the stuckness. I can actually see the stuckness, perhaps. But that's okay. And that's when you see the stuckness, that isn't the end of the affliction now. But you can see, as a matter of fact, you can see that stuckness goes with affliction. So that's nice to see. I see that I'm stuck, and guess what? I'm afflicted. And after a while, you start to see that whenever you're stuck, you're afflicted. Now, some people are stuck. They don't know they're afflicted. But after a while you can see whenever you're stuck, or whenever you see them stuck together, the conventional and the dependent core rising, there's affliction. That's like a universal kind of pairing.

[64:19]

Adhesion of the conventional to the other dependent, affliction. So let's say you see that. And let's say you're feeling the affliction, so it's hard to stay with it. So how are you going to keep with this hard meditation? Is that part of your question? Because it's getting tough, you know. One thing you can do, which I say to people at a time like that, I say, I know it's tough, but you're getting close to the ancestor's mind. And all the ancestors had, from what I've heard, they all had a hard time as they got close to this point. Because as you get intimate with the error... You get intimate with the affliction that arises with the error. So you're getting closer to the affliction too. Before you felt farther from the affliction and that was okay with you. But you're also far from the error which the affliction depends on. To get close to the affliction, you get close to the error.

[65:19]

To get close to the error, you get close to the affliction. We don't like to be close to the affliction. But becoming intimate with the affliction is to become intimate with the error. And when we're really fully intimate with the affliction and fully intimate with the air, we're fully intimate with release from affliction and truth. We do need encouragement, though, to do this hard work. That's why we have stories of the Buddhas and the ancestors that they went through the same trouble. So sure enough, I'm going through the same trouble they did. That's comforting. And also we just need to make ourselves comfortable with the pain of getting intimate with this confliction. So we have to practice patience with this process because it is uncomfortable. It is uncomfortable. It's easier to just, well, it's just uncomfortable. It's easier to just make yourself comfortable and stay comfortable and just stay comfortable in the way of staying away from this.

[66:22]

But it turns out that when you get really comfortable, and you're really successful at being comfortable, you're willing to come into this pain. So when you get super comfortable, you're willing to come back into confusion with no kind of like, what do you call it? What do you call it? A little safe passage thing. I'm just a visitor here. I'm visiting you people, but if it gets too tough, I can go back anytime I want. Well, then you haven't really come to visit. You've got to let the birds eat up your breadcrumbs. You can't get back. But you're willing to come into the world of confusion without any weight, without any little thing that you can pull out of your wallet and say, you're not really here, you know. Or even if you put it in your wallet, you can't necessarily remember. Keep checking your wallet. There's something in there for you. No.

[67:26]

You've got to really immerse yourself. Jeez, that sounds scary. But the reason why you can do it is because you're so comfortable. The Buddhists can stand to live here with us and practice together with us because they're really comfortable and happy. They're so happy, they're so stupid to come here. But they do it because they're so happy, and their happiness drives them back to visit us. Because although they're happy, they'd even be happier if we would, like, join their club. So they're here all around us doing stuff like saying over and over, there's three characteristics of all phenomena, you know? There's three kinds of emptiness, you know? And so on and so forth. Although I didn't mention it earlier, actually it was implied in my earlier teachings, but I didn't mention it because I felt that the people in India in the early days, if they heard this teaching, they would have flipped over into nihilism. Because they weren't sophisticated enough to hear this teaching without taking it as a view of emptiness, I mean a view of nothingness.

[68:35]

So I didn't mention it. But now here we are in this sophisticated 20th century when everybody's a nihilist. So you people should understand that. So when I tell you this, you're going to immediately go into nihilism so we can deal with it right away. We've got encyclopedias of philosophy to tell you the problems of nihilism. So it's going to be okay. You are going to understand this eventually. Okay? But you've got to make yourself comfortable enough to do this work. Once you finish it, you're going to be really comfortable, and then you're going to be able to even do dirtier work. But because you're happy, it's out of your happiness that you come down into confusion. It isn't like, oh, I don't want to go back here. Yes? Being stuck. Being stuck? Being stuck and...

[69:40]

Being stuck what? Being stuck and afflicted. Yeah, all right. Being stuck and afflicted. are interdependent, right? Yeah, and being stuck, I said, I think I said being stuck, but what I mean is to see the dependent core arising and conventional world, see the world of creation and the conventional world stuck together. That situation. We have to take as a given here, don't we, that we're limited by our terms. Yeah, okay, right. I mean, that's valid for you, as I put it, is it? Pardon? Being stuck and afflicted are themselves in an interdependent relationship. That's all right, as far as our terms go right. Yes. Right, so then, it seems to me, having turned over what you're saying, and it kind of in a way implies the question of, say, expensive Rolexes, if an action

[70:52]

is being taken out of an affliction. And in this case, let's say anger. You're afflicted. You're afflicted. Let's just... A little detail here. You're afflicted. You don't practice patience with the affliction. So you're going to blame somebody for it. Right. Whatever the mechanic I... Yeah. Okay. So you've got this action which is fueled by anger in this case. Yes. Okay. So if... through practice, grace, whatever, one examines the quality of that action. And one sees clearly the way in which that action is being fueled by anger. Now, the seeing is seeing, right? The seeing is being seen, right? I'm letting the seeing be the seeing in that case. That is the, well, as the Dalai Lama would put it, that's the antidote to the anger, right? That's the... So, what seems to be interesting... And it's more than the antidote to the anger.

[71:55]

It's also the antidote to the sticking, which is the source of the affliction. Right. So, what I'm saying is that it dissolves into a pure action, right? It's seen for what it is rather than being seen as an action fueled by an affliction. Okay? I'm driving to the point. What seems interesting to me is that having... then moved that emotional baggage out of the way, having then got the anger out of the way, it might still be relevant as an action. Well, but you just got it out of the way, so you just lost something relevant. Well, maybe... Did you hear that? You don't get it out of the way because of what you just said. It might be relevant. In the phenomenon of anger, anger is inherently nirvanic. So don't get the anger out of the way.

[72:58]

Study the anger and see that the anger has three characteristics. Okay? Don't get it out of the way. Study it, and you'll see it has the conventional, the dependent co-arism, and it has the suchness. So then anger is an opportunity to realize nirvana, which is what you said before. But don't get the anger out of the way. Don't get this emotional baggage out of the way. Don't, yeah, it's a bad term. Let's not mess around with this emotional baggage. Let's study it. Emotional baggage, well, phenomena quotes emotional baggage. Oh, there's the imputation. There's the purely conceptual. Where's the dependent core arising? I'd stuck to it. Is there affliction there? Yeah. Well, let's take a look at it from over here. Look. Oh, my God. There's the suchness. Hey, now we're cooking.

[73:59]

Okay? In that environment, if you like, striving for time, in that environment, the action may reveal itself to be relevant. However, Yes, the action is relevant to liberation because what seems to be causing us all the trouble, which is covering over the world of peace and harmony and liberation, that very thing which is covering over can reveal. Conventional reality which covers over happiness and freedom and peace also reveals freedom and peace. It's really, just let me mention something, and that is the word, the Sanskrit word for conventional is samvritti, and there's two ways it's spelled in the text. One way, I think, has two T's, and one way has one T. And when there's one T, it means, I believe it means covering, and when it has two T's, it means revealing.

[75:04]

And it's very serious about, well, it was, you know, scribal error and stuff like that. But it's kind of interesting that this one letter, in these two ways of spelling, is that one way is a conventional reality clouds and covers and hides the ultimate truth. The other is that it reveals the ultimate truth. And both are true. It both covers and reveals. It's wonderful to see it that way. You know, it's wonderful that they made that mistake, if it was a mistake. Or that they have this kind of like fuzzy vision so they can sometimes see one T and sometimes see two. Shall we stop and take a little break from this noisiness? Yes? Yehuda? Yeah, let's go back to the forest. He thinks he's a very long way away.

[76:17]

Or you think he's a long way away. And there's a creek. And there's a creek. So does he sit down by the creek? No, no, he's walking along. Oh, okay. He hears the sound of the creek. And just hearing the sound of the creek is, from what I get from what you say, it's okay. He hasn't made too much of an error. But he hears the sound of the creek and that reminds him about the fish that he was trying to fish under the creek and which he didn't succeed. And so he makes a whole story about it. Then he's made a bigger area and then he starts suffering. Is that what you're trying to say? No. If he's walking along the creek and he hears the sound of the creek, okay, if he would just let the sound of the creek be the sound of the creek, he would realize that he's not lost.

[77:19]

Then, if after he realized he wasn't lost, he thought, what about that fish? And he realized that that thought about the fish was just the thought of the fish. Then he wouldn't be lost. So in each case, it's not the phenomena that's the problem. It's the lack of seeing that in the phenomena is the suchness. Like I said, he's a long way from the great death. He's not a Buddha. He's not enlightened. He's heard about it, and he's kind of, you know, thought about it, but he's still a long way away from doing what you've just described. According to this story. He's unable. This is going to be a long story. That creates suffering. The fact that he's making a story about not having caught the fish that he intended to feed his family with. Is that what creates suffering? No, it's not the thought you just said that creates the suffering. It's the not seeing the suchness in the thought that creates the suffering.

[78:19]

Right, okay. That's right, okay. But he's unable to see that. Yeah, he's unable to see that, so he suffers. So he suffers. And what you're telling us is how to stop suffering. I'm talking, yeah, about how to stop suffering, right. That's all. Yeah. Okay. That's just, yeah, that's all it is. That's all it's about. You know? One time I was visiting somebody in the hospital at UC Medical Center, Moppet Hospital, is that what it's called? Moppet? Moppet. Moppet. And I was going up this escalator, an elevator, you know, a 13-story building or whatever, and I was driving up this escalator, this elevator, and... That's just one building in the UC Medical Complex, right? And I thought, all this stuff, you know, this whole, all these thousands of rooms and thousands of people, they're all here just to help people. It's amazing. People are really, like, into that.

[79:23]

We're kind of concerned with that. So that's what it's all about, just this simple thing, help people. which also turns out helps dogs, because if the people are okay, the dogs are good too, because dogs, you know, feel happy when the people are nice to them. So thank you very much for being nice to Rozzy.

[79:40]

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