So again, I think it's good to warm up and remember that we start with Right View, right? So that means, what does that mean? We start with mundane Right View. So what's happening then? When we're practicing Right View? What? We're aware of karma. We're aware of karma, right. We're meditating on how? we experience ourself acting in the world, and how our thought, speech and action come to fruit, how it has effects. We watch the actions and the effects, watch the actions and the effects. That's right view. We know what we're doing, supposedly. Okay? As we see how we're behaving, and we see how behaving one way leads to certain kinds of results, and behaving another way leads to certain kinds of results, our thinking, our intention, starts to change in accordance with what we see.

[01:38]

And if we practice Right View long enough to see the basics, like unwholesome actions lead to negative results, wholesome actions lead to positive results. If we start seeing that, then naturally our intentions start to adjust to that information. And so what's called right intention comes up. And right intention is what? What's right intention? Or comprehensive intention? Right thinking, what is it? Don't be shy. Yeah, it's the intention of harmlessness, the intention of loving-kindness and the intention for thinking about renunciation. So thinking about renunciation, thinking about loving-kindness, thinking about how to be harmless, okay? Then it's time to talk. What kind of talk we consider then, thinking this way, looking at our life, having a view of our life, thinking about

[02:50]

how to be harmless, loving, and practice renunciation, what kind of speech goes with that? We contemplate that. So, on the negative side, the kind of speech that goes with that is, not lying, for example. and not slandering people, and not idle chatter, and not speaking harshly. Right intention does not go in that way. And on the positive side, right intention goes towards speaking the truth,

[03:51]

speaking about things that are significant and related to the truth and practice and helping people not like each other, speaking gently not to hurt people and speaking about others in a way that doesn't slander them rather that praises them. So, speaking the truth is, you know, on the ethical level, speaking the truth is very important. We're having good relationships. But it's the interpersonal mirror of what's going on inside of ourselves. And if we're not committed to speaking the truth to others, then when we look inside ourselves, it's pretty hard for us to even see what's going on with ourselves. If you lie outwardly, you lie to yourself too.

[05:08]

Practicing telling the truth to other people and getting their feedback helps you then look inside and tell the truth about what you see there. Looking inside and saying what you see, maybe somebody inside can tell you that you're lying. That's helpful. Talking outwardly And having someone outside question you and ask whether that's the truth helps you. And that helps you when you turn around and look inside. So both sides help each other. But if you don't have an internal teacher who checks out whether you're telling the truth, it's very helpful to get an external teacher to try to tell the truth to somebody outside. will give you feedback on that and then you can take that same kind of meditation inwardly. Some people say that it would be okay almost to break all ethical precepts except the commitment

[06:20]

Because if you can speak the truth, you can gradually see the truth, and if you can see the truth, you will practice all the ethical precepts. But if you practice the ethical precepts and you're not committed to telling the truth, you're just going to kid yourself that you're practicing them. In fact, you won't practice them. So it's very important, this first aspect of right speech, telling the truth. So, another meditation for you is, think about, in terms of right speech, think about not lying, okay? And then, think about lying, and then see how lying goes with not right thinking. See how lying would go with attachment. See how lying would go with ill-will, and see how lying would go with violence.

[07:36]

Turn it around, think of speaking the truth, see how speaking the truth goes with renunciation, loving-kindness, and harmlessness. Thinking of lying, meditate on how lying comes from delusion, greed, and ill-will. It's interesting to think of an example of where based on delusion you would lie, where based on ill-will you would lie, and based on greed you would lie. So can you think of an example of where based on greed you would lie? Yes? Somebody asks you if you already had dessert, and you say no, so you buy an extra. Somebody asks you if you had dessert, and you say no, so you can get an extra one for. You know, somebody, you know, you get paid in cash rather than with a check, and somebody asks you if you've been paid, and you say, no, not yet.

[08:50]

Something like that. So that's in order to get some gain. personal gain, he might lie. How about ill will? What ill will might go with, what lies might go with ill will? It's so obvious you don't know which one to pick, right? You want a promotion. Huh? You want a promotion over somebody else. Yeah, so you tell people that so and so, you tell a lie about what somebody did, to demean, you know, to lower someone's opinion. So you can imagine a lot of situations where, in order to hurt people, well in that case, the one you get is a double one, right? You get a promotion for yourself and then you hurt somebody else by lying about them. So you lie to lower people's opinions. So that slips over into slander. Okay.

[09:50]

So slander is also lying. Planters are not necessarily lying. You might tell the truth about the person in order to have people think less of them. But you also might lie about somebody in order to make people think less of them. And how about delusion? What kind of lies would come from delusions? A little harder to tell because those are really common and I don't even know about those. Hmm? Yes? You didn't say you were separate. Pardon? You didn't say you were separate from anybody else. That's a very basic lie, right? Say, I'm separate from all other beings. Right, that lie. There it is, right there. That's a lie which, you know, almost everybody tells, right? I'm not you, is the basic lie, based on delusion. Yeah. It's such a basic lie, we almost don't have to say it anymore. And related to that is, what are some things, based on that basic delusion, what kind of lies would come from that basic delusion?

[11:00]

I'm suffering. Huh? I'm suffering. No, your suffering comes from, but it's not a lie to say you're suffering. Well, we are, you know. I mean... No, this is when you, this is when you think you're suffering and you say you're not. Jumping back to her, I can see I didn't say that. So based on delusion, we tell lies to protect ourselves. But it would mean that someone would say, you know, someone would come in and maybe you broke a glass or something, and some big giant comes in and says, who broke the glass? Not me. Not me? Not me? I didn't break the glass to protect yourself, right? You lie to protect yourself. Any other lies of delusion? I can act independently.

[12:02]

Right, but I'm talking about cases where you think it's a lie. Let's start with those first. At the first level of going through this, lying means that you say something that's not true, that you think is not true. It's not true that you can act independently. It's not true that you're independent of other beings. But if you think it's so, and you say it's so, it's not lying. So I went along with Liz's lie, but strictly speaking, if you believe that you're separate from other beings, although it's not true, you're not intentionally lying, you just are misinformed. So at the first level of right speech, first level of lying, is that it's the intention to deceive. If you think you're telling the truth, like if you say, somebody says, what day is it today, and you say Thursday, but you think it's Thursday, it's not a lie. It's wrong, but you don't mean it as a lie. So it's wrong that we're separate, and it's untrue to say that we're separate.

[13:09]

Saying we're separate is not true, but you don't necessarily mean it as a deception. So I think direct, intentional deception is what we're talking about here. Yeah? that they can't handle hearing the truth. Right. Right? Or that it's better for them. Yeah. Sometimes we lie, because we think it's good for them. Or... Yes? I mean, lying to make a good impression, like... Lying to make a good impression, right. Like saying you understand something when you don't understand it, or... Yeah, right. Or saying you went to Harvard where actually you went to. What about omitting relevant information? What about omitting relevant information? Yeah, so like, you know, let's see, so yeah, that's like you tell a story and you tell part of the story and you leave out part of the story.

[14:09]

that might, you know, that might, you know, not serve you. Yeah, that would be lying. That would be not telling the truth. You'd be telling a story which you didn't think is what really happened. And of course what we do is oftentimes we tell the story and when we get to the part we want to leave out, we just forget that part. Because we don't want to, we don't want the person to notice that we're lying. What about village stories? Embellishing stories. And then also embellishing stories to make yourself a little bit more interesting. Like you got a story to tell about something that actually happened. You know? And lie just to try and get along with people. And lie, yeah, lie for the sake of harmony. Is this all delusions? Is this all in the category of delusions? Was that, were all those in the category of delusions? Lying to get along with people could be in the category of greed, because you're trying to protect your position or hold on to your position in the community.

[15:28]

But it could be delusion, because you think that lying actually does promote harmony. And sometimes it looks like that, right? Because if you bring up certain truths, it seems to cause disturbance. But rather than lie, you can shut up and wait until you can say something true that wouldn't cause harm. So sometimes it's true that, I mean sometimes it is so, that if you speak what you think is the truth, it does cause harm. So we talked about this this morning. Sometimes you can say something that's true, but that's harmful. The Buddha said, don't do it then. And then he said, sometimes you can say something that's true, that's not harmful. And then he said, In that case, where it's both truthful, it's the truth, and it's harmless, in that case, wait for the right time. Even then, don't do it necessarily right away, but wait for the right circumstances. So if you think of something that might cause disturbance, you might say, well, for the sake of the community harmony, I won't bring that up.

[16:37]

But it might be that there's another way to put it, when it wouldn't be harmful, or another truth that wouldn't be harmful. or another time when that same truth wouldn't cause dissension. So you watch for a time. In the meantime, if there's harmony in the situation, you don't necessarily have to lie to maintain the harmony, even though telling the truth might cause disharmony. But when we get scared of something, we might speak a lie because we think we have to talk now. We forget that if the which actually applies inside and outside of court. Right? Except when you're talking to your spouse or something. No, I'm just kidding.

[17:39]

Idle chatter is one that I think people have a problem with. I mean, people have a problem with it because they have trouble understanding what it means, and then when they understand what it means, they have a problem with it too. Idle chatter basically means talking in a way that's, again, that's... Usually idle chatter is not meant to be harmful talk, but more like waste of time type of talk. If you're meeting somebody, some people you might meet them, and some people need some affectionate comments. You might see some very strict monk, you know, who among his fellow monks, or his sister monks, he won't talk about anything but dharma. And most of the time they don't need this person to talk about anything but dharma. He always just talks about things related to Buddhism, or the truth, or practice. And he won't talk about baseball, hockey, he won't even talk about Michael Jordan.

[18:43]

except if somebody points out that Michael Jordan is actually Shakyamuni Buddha. And then they can have a kind of like Dharma debate, you know. Oh, no, he's not. Oh, yes, he is. What are his characteristics that you think he's a Buddha and so on? Well, he has supernatural powers. He can read people's minds. Anyway, He saves all sentient beings except the outpouring teeth, causing teeth. Is this Pidal Shadow? Yeah, is it? Depends on your intention, right? It would also depend on your intention whether that's Pidal Shadow or not. So, in other cases, however, that same monk, if that monk met a child, that monk might talk about baseball and dollies and doggies and might be very affectionate and chatty in a way that, in that case anyway, would be necessary in order to encourage a child.

[20:17]

And the same monk might be very playful and seem to be just, you know, talking about something not very deep. But in that case, it might be appropriate, because to do otherwise might frighten the child, or make the child uncomfortable, or make the child feel like monks are ogres, or whatever. On the other hand, sometimes it might be good for children to think monks are ogres, so that it would be up to the monk to figure out what is a beneficial way to treat a child. So, I think the point is anyway that speech is not vain, waste of time, it's intentional, and it has some purpose. And sometimes white talk can have the purpose of relaxing people, and once they get relaxed, you can talk about something more... more helpful, and not distracting. Sometimes idle chatter at first starts out quite light and nice, and gradually gets people quite riled up and distracted, and can lead into then quite easily

[21:25]

this more serious type of negative speech. Harsh speech is speech where you're actually speaking in such a way that you're trying to hurt the listener. Slander is not usually applied to talking directly to the person about their problems. Slander is usually talking about the third party, about somebody, with the intention of making this person think less of this other person. and causing division to separate people or to lower people's opinion of something. Even if it's true. In American law, I guess, slander means to falsely state something. You can sue somebody for falsely stating things about yourself. But if they say the truth about you, I don't think it's necessarily slander. But in Buddhism, to say something that hurts somebody's reputation and makes people think less of them is is not recommended.

[22:27]

And there's a difficulty here for us, if somebody's practicing or even teaching in a way that we feel is misleading people concerning the Dharma, then if we wanted to criticize the way they're teaching the truth, because we want to protect the Dharma and clarify things for people, we'd have to be very careful to make sure that we really were criticizing what they were teaching, not to lower people's opinion but to help people understand what was incorrect about what they were teaching. Without the intention of hurting this person, we just wanted to correct it. We'd also have to be careful that we weren't really trying to elevate ourselves relative to them. So it's very difficult if you're in the same line of work as somebody and you see them teaching something that's interfering with this work that you think is very important, to criticize that in such a way as to not be actually trying to make people think lesser than the other person and more of you, which is very likely to happen.

[23:31]

So how do you do that? I guess what you might do is, I guess, praise the person in some way and say, but I have a problem with this. You might also tell some bad stories about yourself along the process too, that might help. If you haven't. But harsh speech is not for me to say something bad about you to somebody else. Harsh speech is for me to say something mean to you, so you feel pain when I say it. So, harsh speech does not go with loving-kindness or harmlessness. Slander does not go with loving-kindness or harmlessness. And of course none of these go with renunciation either. I just want to say those few other things and one other thing I want to say before I forget and that is a number of people in hearing about the practice of Right View have well I don't know because they heard about me talking about it but anyway a number of people came and talked to me about their practice and I could tell them in hearing what they're observing about their practice that they're practicing Right View the mundane Right View because a number of people are actually noticing what they're doing and some of the people who are noticing what they're doing

[24:54]

are uncomfortable about what they're seeing, their own karma, and they're uncomfortable because they're seeing how their mind works this way or their mind works that way, or they do this or they do that, and they're seeing tremendous pain as a result of their own thought processes and their own speech and their own actions. And I can say, you know, well, this is very painful, what you're seeing is very painful, you're seeing pain, but you're actually practicing right view, you're actually meditating on your karma. you know, good work, actually. The one thing I haven't mentioned, which I could talk about a lot, but I'm not going to, and that is that a collateral practice with right view, with mundane right view, is patience. You have to take care of the pain you're going to feel when you do this practice. This is going to be a painful practice a lot of times, very painful, and you need to understand that it's necessary work, It's work that you can deny and try to, you know, distance yourself from.

[26:02]

Temporarily, at least, you can try. But when you actually get into the work, it is painful, so you have to practice patience in order to stay in there. Okay? Like someone said, it's not like just taking a hot bath. It's like being in the hot bath for a long time. Many, many years sometimes. in this kind of meditation. So you need to practice patience with this. Not a bad sign that it's painful. It's also not a bad sign if it's not painful. But one time I was having an easy time and I went to Suzuki Roshi and told him so because I thought something was wrong. All of a sudden it wasn't really difficult. He said, you know, it may be all right for you for a little while. So check it out, but it might not be bad. Having a hard time with this kind of meditation is not a bad sign. But still, if you're not sure, check it out. See if somebody thinks that actually what you're doing is you're seeing the grisly details of your karmic life and that's not pleasant to look at.

[27:09]

It's quite uncomfortable, etc. Various idle comments I can make about that. Yes? Isn't it good to have a sense of humor? A sense of humor, I think, is very good, and a real sense of humor, I think, thrives when you're doing this kind of work. Right. But I mean, it can go hand in hand. Yeah, I think sense of humor goes really well with, like, when I was a kid, there was a guy on TV who said, you know, you see, somehow he's usually sitting in the bathtub, and he said, you think you've got problems? And he started talking, started listing this list of problems he had, and it just got funnier and funnier. Anyway, it gets to be funny after a while when you really get into it. You know, it's like, we're just these karmic clowns, you know. It gets funny after a while. But it's real funny because you're not just, you know, it's in the context of being grounded in your suffering.

[28:12]

It's that kind of humor. I often, when I'm contemplating this stuff, I often start laughing at people and you hear me laughing in the middle of this contemplation, it's kind of a devilish laugh. Okay, are you ready? Now write action, okay? Same thing, renunciation, the same intention, right? The same kind of thinking. thinking about renunciation, thinking about loving-kindness, thinking about harmlessness, now physical action. So what kind of physical action is renunciation, loving-kindness, embodied loving-kindness, embodied harmlessness and embodied renunciation? That's the kind of method.

[29:13]

not killing, not stealing, and no sexual misconduct. Those are the three basic areas of right action, three basic kinds of right action. Or positively, protecting life, treasuring life, nurturing life, being generous, and having appropriate sexual relationships, sexual relationships that bring happiness to people, that promote health, and that encourage marital harmony and union, that encourage people, other people also, to have healthy sexual relationships by demonstrating that it's possible. You know, you can't necessarily demonstrate in public, but... sort of, they get the feeling that it's good for you.

[30:27]

Because of what they don't see you doing, right? That you look happy, you know, and you're not causing any trouble. So they figure, you know, must have it together, right? And if you're married yourself, they figure, well, that's good. So it's an encouragement to other people to try to figure out how they could be married and have appropriate sexual relationships. But you may have to do a lot of work on yourself in all these areas internally in order to actually not kill, right? So we have a lot of opportunities to kill, right? Right now it's not that difficult in Tasselhar because we have not much bugs, right? But a lot of times here in this nice little Buddhist monastery we have people who are confronted with a life and death situation of insects where insects are wantedly and dangerously sucking our blood, gouging our flesh, entering our mucous membranes, and we have nerves all around this stuff, so, you know, we have difficulty about how to practice loving kindness with these insects, and how to be harmless, right?

[31:42]

Don't we have problems with that sometimes? But now we don't have that much problems because they're not bothering us, are they? But if they come back tomorrow, we'll have that problem again. So then we have to, like, meditate on karma. And just start to, you know, meditate on karma about what happens when you kill things. You can get in big trouble for killing things. Say, did you get in big trouble for killing insects? Well, there are stories about people who got in big trouble for killing insects. Like what? Like what? Going to hell, is one. Even the great Nagarjuna, accidentally, but didn't on purpose, you know, with full venomous intent, did not kill an ant. But he accidentally killed an ant. But he accidentally killed it in the process of being careless. So what do you call it?

[32:43]

Involuntary manslaughter, right? It counts, huh? Manslaughter, right? We count it against people, if they're driving recklessly, if they hurt somebody, don't we? It's worse if you're under the influence of alcohol, right? But you don't have to intentionally try to kill the person. If you're not taking care of driving the car, we consider that to be... that's not loving-kindness. To get in the car drunk is not loving-kindness. So anyway, to kill an ant by being in a hurry, he would actually... I think he was reading a scripture or something, I'm not sure. and he was kind of in a hurry turning the pages and showing them to Adam in the process. And because of that, the great Nagarjuna, his spiritual progress was significantly blocked for a really long time. And this is one of the greatest figures in Buddhist history, was, I don't know, permanently, but almost permanently disabled spiritually because of that sloppiness. That's a story, you know? It's a story.

[33:43]

But that's the kind of story. That's one. And other people have gotten in big problems from from harming small creatures. Of course, you get in more trouble if you harm them with enjoyment and you're glad that you killed them. If you're sorry to kill them, it's not quite as bad as if you're happy to kill them. It's better not to kill them. That's why I recommend when the bugs come to wear long-sleeved clothes. It makes it a lot easier not to kill them. And hats are good, too. Then they're mostly on your hands and face. If you're a bear around the back, you know, sometimes when somebody is biting you from the back, you don't know where it is, you think it might be like a huge monster, you know, so then you just push it out of the way really fast, right? Anyway, it is, you have to work on yourself not to kill things. Most people do. Most people, it's not, except for really, really developed people, really, really enlightened people, it's come naturally not to kill. But for most of us, got to be careful. Also, not stealing is quite difficult, because again, We can get confused about that.

[34:45]

We can think, oh, because I'm angry at so-and-so, I can take this. It doesn't have any feeling, it's just I'm paying them back. We can get quite confused about stealing. So, whenever you need to go back to right intention, do you have right intention, do you have right intention, is how you're practicing renunciation. So, in your own mind, you have to practice renunciation in order to not kill, not steal, and not misuse sexuality, you have to be practicing renunciation all the time. So in your meditation, when you're sitting, also in your daily life, you're practicing renunciation, you're letting go of all these tendencies to harm, to grasp. Yes? How far do you carry this non-killing to the level, say, bacteria, viruses, you know, when you have a surgery, you do wipe yourself with alcohol and stuff like that, you do kill stuff on your skin. Yes, so I guess in that case, if you're aware, if you notice that you're killing some kind of bacteria, okay, then you have to stop and think beforehand, I guess.

[35:54]

Okay, now, is it beneficial to do this? Well, you know, it's beneficial to you, you think. So is it beneficial to the bacteria? So then what are you going to do? Kill the bacteria. So maybe you do kill the bacteria by cleaning your wound. But then do you recognize that you did that? Yes. And do you feel sorry about it? No. You don't feel sorry about it? No. You've got to maintain your boundaries? Well, isn't it possible to... What? Well, you don't have to, but you think you don't have to do it, but if you think it's a good thing to do it, then you might decide to do it. And I would say, I would say that all the people in this room, as far as I know, I think it's a good thing for you to take care of your bodies.

[36:57]

And if I had to choose, if I had to choose between, you know, your living or dying, certainly, over lots of bacteria that are dying, I guess I would go with the choice of yes, I guess so. But I wouldn't be happy about it. And I actually would be a little sorry. And if I could choose whether to put some kind of medicine on which kills the bacteria or not, I would choose not. I'd better be all right without it. Right? And actually, to some extent, isn't that Isn't that what some people do? They have a sickness and they're trying to choose whether to have antibiotics or not? And some people choose not to have the antibiotics because it also harms you in some ways to have them, right? But sometimes you say, well, I think I'm not going to make it if I don't have the antibiotics. So, you know, maybe you say, excuse me, whoever I'm killing here, I'm going to make that choice. Every time you take a shower and you soak,

[37:59]

killing bacteria, every time you brush your teeth, you know, and every time you're basically cleaning yourself, you're killing bacteria. Yeah, and maybe, are you killing, are you killing, are you killing anything else when you wash yourself? Probably, yeah. Are you like, when you wash yourself, do you rub off cells? Do cells come off? Huh? Some cells come off? And are there living beings in those cells? Or being like, deported to heaven? They're dead. They're dead. There's no living beings in those cells that are coming off? And so it's kind of a difficult situation. We're having a problem here with this, this, aren't we? It's kind of a problem. So, you're not having a problem, John? No. Okay. I mean, I think you can carry it too far, for instance, if you drive a car. Do I? Yeah. Well, you know when you drive a car, Yeah, so I drive a car, I guess like I'm going to drive a car to go back to San Francisco because I want to get to San Francisco in less than whatever number of weeks it would take me to walk.

[39:16]

Yeah, my point is there's a practical side to this and you're making a practical decision to drive a car for convenience as opposed to not killing it. Right, right. But what does it mean to carry it too far? Well, I think everybody has to decide for themselves. I mean, and I would really respect it if you said, no, I know the cause. I don't want to deal with the bugs that are flying and the things that are falling on the ground. I would respect that as my decision, your decision, and being very mindful and very concerned with right action. But I also wouldn't criticize someone else who chose to clean their wound or, you know, Well, so far, I don't think you've heard any recommendations for criticizing people unless the thing they're doing is really, you know, really undermining the situation. And some people feel like driving cars is that kind of thing, so they are fighting against that.

[40:21]

But I'm saying just that you have, again, come back to right intention. You're intending, you're intending to be harmless, you're intending to practice loving-kindness towards all beings, and you're intending renunciation. So, intending renunciation, some people feel like that would go with, OK, I'm going to renounce internal combustion of transportation. I'm going to renounce that. That's what renunciation would be for some people. But those of us who continue to do that, maybe it would be good for us to be mindful of what's involved there, And then maybe feel something about that. Maybe have some problem with that. I think, I personally do have problems riding in cars. And I try, you know, if I'm, you know, if I'm going to go from Green Gorge to San Francisco, and my wife's going too, I try to go at the same time as her.

[41:23]

And sometimes it's just really hard to sort of like, sometimes I have to spend the whole day in San Francisco, and I only need to be there for half the day in order to ride in with her. But sometimes I do that because I'd rather not have two cars going in. But still, even one car, we say it's a lot. Maybe we should ride bicycles. Which actually, sometimes I do. Which is actually kind of nice. And it doesn't take that long to ride a bicycle. But it takes a lot. It takes five times as long. But it's actually good exercise too. However, it's also very dangerous for me to ride a bicycle on that road because cars almost knock me off the road all the time. You know, it's, you know, especially at night in the rain, it's questionable whether it's good to do it. So, I think the point is, you consider carefully your actions, and some people say, well, you have the luxury to do that, and I say, well, if you have the luxury to do it, if you have leisure time so that you can pay attention to what you're doing, then yes, do that. And while you're driving, you can use the time you're driving, maybe,

[42:31]

think about your driving and what's involved in it. Anyway, this kind of meditation is intended to help us go deeper into the meditation on what we're doing, on your karma. And the more intimate we get with the karma, the more intimate we get of the world of where we do things and it causes effects and those effects cause, kind of entrap us and force us to do other things, I did the karma of coming to Tassajara and now I'm kind of implicated, here I am, now how do I get back to Greenville? And now I've got, am I going to walk back or what? And so on. So, everything we do has effects, we've watched this and now we're talking about what we do with our body, right? In terms of just doing things with our body. about it?

[43:57]

Oh, I'm not telling you to... I'm not telling you to want to be sorry. Or what's particularly wholesome about being sorry? Well, to recognize it is one thing, but... I'll tell you. Okay. For me, when I'm sorry, when I'm sorry about beings being killed, I feel happier. Okay? I feel happier when I'm sorry that beings are killed. That's what's good about that being is being killed and you feel terrible. But I feel happier when I'm sorry that beings are killed. And when beings are killed and I don't feel sorry, I feel sick when I don't feel sorry. But sometimes I don't feel sorry and then I feel sick. That's the way it is. I went to, you know, with some people here in this room, we went to San Quentin a while ago, remember?

[45:02]

We went there and we stood outside in the rain before they killed, before they, you know, executed, what's his name? Robert... Robert... Robert Alton Harris. We stood out in the rain and we did this service, these pitiful little Buddhists all soaked in the rain with our scripture cards getting soaked, you know. knees in a little chant against the wind and everything, and people driving by honking horns, there's the guards there. And one of the people who helped organize this, afterwards, you know, she said, you know, how impotent and hopeless she thought it was. And, uh... Anyway, I... I... We did that. We stood up there and we all gathered together and we said, you know, we care about life, we don't want this guy to get killed, and we have compassion for him, for the people that he killed, for the family of the people he killed, and we have compassion for the governor of California, and we have compassion for the people, the person who's going to kill him on behalf of the state.

[46:05]

We have compassion for all these people. We're not blaming anybody. We just would rather not have people killing each other anymore, including executions. That's our position in the ring. We ended our service and we went home. But after that service was over, I don't know, I just felt tremendous love and all over the place, and kindness. And really, it seemed to him that that futile effort to protest his murder generated a lot of love. So, being sorry that he's going to be killed by us, by our society, helped me. So, if you feel sorry in a way that doesn't make you feel healthy and give you life, then maybe you can work on that. Maybe there's another way to feel sorry that makes you feel more alive and human. Not human, but, you know, loving. I have a hard time imagining if someone I love has cancer and the cancer is killed. I have a very hard time, I have a very hard time imagining being sorry.

[47:07]

You do? Yeah. Okay. Have a hard time. Okay. But you could also, I could imagine myself, you know, being sorry that the cancer was killed and very happy that my loved one is going to live longer. Especially if it's going to be a happy life for my loved one. I can imagine being very happy about that and simultaneously sad about that. I can imagine feeling a little sorry that I had to lose my kidney so somebody else could live. I can imagine saying, yeah, I kind of miss my kidney. Having trouble adjusting to it. But that's different actually than me actually killing somebody's kidney to get somebody, you know, I don't know, that's not a good example, but... that would be sorry to have to kill somebody's kidney for what? I don't know. What big... saying stupid things is not against the precepts. Stupid things are very deep. Correct?

[48:22]

What about abortion? What about abortion? You want me to get just a bit further on abortion? My basic thing is if... I don't know what, you know, it's a big topic, right? So, you know, the way I usually run into it in practical situations is people ask me about it, like you ask me, and also sometimes people, usually women, come to me who are pregnant and they ask me about, you know, what to do, and I usually encourage them to have a baby. But I also tell them, usually, that I'll help them with it. No one has ever come to me with, like, an actual illness. Like, they found out that the baby has, you know, genetic defects and stuff like that, or that one or both of them are going to die in the process. It's usually... I'm usually confronted, myself, with a healthy situation. Usually it's a case where the person is not sure that the world would support her to have the baby.

[49:24]

So I usually, in that case, say, I will try to help you with the baby. And I'll try to get other people to help you with the baby. You can support if you want. Now, if the person doesn't want to have the baby because they think they'll be a bad mother, then I might say, well, maybe then you could have the baby and give me the baby. And I'll find a good home for her. That's another thing I say. because I know a lot of people who want to have babies. Now, I don't know if it's against the law for me to get the baby and give it to somebody. I know, I personally know a lot of people want babies, you know, and the adoption policies, the adoption process is, you know, really, you know, expensive and blah, blah, blah. So that's what I usually say. I do not think that it's proper to have a law that prevents somebody I think it might be good to have a law that prevents people from having abortions which are unhealthy. Not to let people walk into situations where basically the mother can be killed along with the baby.

[50:27]

I don't think that's good. There should be laws against that, I think. But I don't think a person should be stopped. If there's a service available for her to do, I think the woman should be able to decide. But I usually recommend to have a baby because, again, most of the people who come and talk to me are my friends. Both husband and wife came and I said, my God, these two are the best people I know. This baby is like, you know, my God, give me the baby. This is going to be a fantastic baby. How could you, you know, not have it? I didn't tell him. So I said, please have the baby and give it to me. and I'll take care of it, and if you want it back later, I'll give it back to you. And every time I do this, I tell my wife, and she says, OK, but you have to take care of it. And I've done this quite a few times, and nobody gave me the baby yet. And nobody had the abortion yet.

[51:28]

But I don't tell them not to do it, I tell them to give me the baby. Now, some people don't even want to go through the pregnancy. I haven't run into that person yet. It's mostly that our society is pushing people now to have the baby, but not giving them support afterwards. I say there's a lot of good things about a fetus. A fetus has got a lot going for it, in my opinion, especially a healthy one. And I think it's a precious life form. That's my feeling. But I think that the infant is also precious. So it isn't like deliver the baby and then forget about the infant. That's how I feel. If the mother doesn't want to be a mother, or doesn't feel like she can be a mother, then I would take it on for the sake of this creature, to try to find somebody who would take care of it, or a group of people who would take care of it. And so far it's worked out. The people who I told you about, that one couple, only one time did a couple come. Usually it's a single mother. But one time a couple came, and after I talked to them, they decided to have the baby, but then they had a miscarriage.

[52:36]

And then right after that, they got pregnant again, And that time they didn't come back to talk to me. They had the baby, and now the baby's probably a fantastic, wonderful kid, just like the other one probably would have been by now. That's how I feel about abortion. I would encourage people to go ahead who don't feel that they have support, but... and then go ahead and have the baby and get the support. If they... If they don't want to be a mother, then I would encourage them to have a baby and give the baby away. Again, like I say, it's easy for me because most people that are coming to me are people who are going to have, you know, really healthy babies. They're not crack addicts who are going to have deformed babies and so on and so forth. But even crack addicts, I still might advise them to do it because some people want to even take care of crack babies, right? And that's if we have that right here at Gentrail. a blessing to our community, right?

[53:41]

So, I just think it's much more interesting, life's much more interesting going through the trouble of not killing. It's very inconvenient sometimes, but really a challenge, right? Not killing is really, killing is pretty easy, actually. We're, you know, human beings are excellent killers. We're the best. Right? We can kill anything on the planet, you know? So we're good killers. But not killing really challenges us. That's a kind of our growth area. And we grow. We grow in wisdom. The precept on not killing. Not killing. Not killing life nurtures the seed of Buddha's wisdom. To try to figure out how to live a life without killing, you have to become wise to figure out how to do that. if our wisdom is not fully developed. Not killing sometimes seems really, really difficult.

[54:44]

Yes, John? The opposite of not stealing, being generous? Yes. Could you talk about that a little bit and about your philosophy about that? You know, that's a wonderful question, but I kind of feel like we've been going on now for about an hour, and maybe you could bring that up in our next session. Okay? Because I think this is kind of enough, isn't it? I mean, for now? It's getting hot. All right, but I'll talk about this, not stealing, next session. Not stealing, the next thing is right livelihood, right? Not stealing is very closely related to right livelihood.

[55:35]

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