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Upright Zen: Beyond Meditation Practice
AI Suggested Keywords:
This talk explores the concept of being upright in Zen practice, distinguishing it from traditional meditation practices. It emphasizes Zazen as the embodiment of perfect awakening and liberation beyond meditation, akin to the samadhi paramita. The discussion delves into letting go of meditation attainments, listening inwardly to oneself and to others, and achieving intimacy with all experiences without attachment or aversion, aligning with the teachings of Avalokiteshvara and the four foundations of mindfulness.
Referenced Works and Concepts:
- Dogen Zenji's Zazen: Highlights the importance of Zazen beyond mere meditation.
- Samadhi Paramita: Describes Zazen as the perfection of meditation, where one lets go of their attainments.
- Heart Sutra: Discussed in relation to compassion and understanding the self's existence.
- Four Foundations of Mindfulness: Tied to Avalokiteshvara's compassion, focusing on listening and residing in the body and mind.
- Bodhidharma and Hui K’o: Exemplify the practice of being upright, not activating the mind around objects, and understanding the nature of self.
- Avalokiteshvara’s Aspects: Kanan and Kanji Zai highlight listening to the self and others, representing true compassion and mindfulness.
AI Suggested Title: Upright Zen: Beyond Meditation Practice
Additional text: Sony, CD-R Audio, 80 min, Compact Disc Digital Audio Recordable
@AI-Vision_v003
This morning I would like to continue talking with you about just being upright, the practice of Dazen. So when I mentioned that Dogen Zenji said that the Zazen we speak of, or the just being upright that we speak of, is not learning meditation, some people may have some difficulty adjusting to that slogan.
[01:02]
because some people have been practicing learning meditation and maybe thinking that that was the Zadang spoken of in the lineage of Dauding Zenji. And in saying that no disparagement is meant of practicing concentration. Practicing concentration is a wonderful, wholesome thing which most Zen monks have spent quite a bit of time involved in. And most Zen monks who practice for a long time have spent quite a bit of time practicing concentration and practicing learning meditation. But it just should not be confused with the practice of a Buddha. Buddhas can practice concentration, and they sometimes do, but sometimes they don't.
[02:08]
Sometimes they just go, you know, play marbles with little kids or jump in the cold water or have lunch with no intention to develop concentration. However, the Buddha is always completely concentrated. And still, even though the Buddha is concentrated, the Buddha can enter into concentration practices of various kinds, which have various results. But Buddha is not always in a state of practicing some kind of concentration or developing a certain concentrated state of mind. But sometimes they do. But what is it that the Buddhas are always doing? 24 hours a day. What are they always doing? What are they always practicing? Being upright.
[03:13]
They're always being upright. And they're always practicing Zazen. Zazen is what they are. Zazen is unsurpassed, perfect awakening, complete emancipation. That's what Zazen is. which can embrace any state, even the deepest concentration, even the highest concentration, one can still be upright. But one can also be upright in a state of total chaos. That's what's good about complete perfect enlightenment. It applies to all situations. just being upright, its relationship to meditation is that just being upright in the realm of meditation is called the samadhi paramita.
[04:14]
It's when meditation goes beyond meditation. That's what zazen is. Zazen is the perfection of meditation. And the perfection of meditation is when you Give up your meditation, particularly when you give up the bliss and happiness of your meditation. It doesn't exactly count, although it counts a little bit. If you give up some state of meditation which you're really having a hard time and you don't like it and would like to get rid of it, you can't then exactly count that. although it's okay to let go of that too. That's called letting go of distraction. That's called letting go of having a hard time, which is also good, but that's called the having a hard time paramita. That's going beyond having a hard time, which is good. That's also when you go beyond that, but it's not the samadhi paramita.
[05:19]
Samadhi paramita is when you're concentrated, and somebody says, hey, can I have your concentration? You say, sure, here. Or even if somebody doesn't ask, you say, here. Zazen is to give up your meditation practice. Zazen is when you finally, after practicing many years, come to Tassahara and enter into a deep samadhi and finally you have no problems. You're completely calm and blissful and the bell rings You get up and toss it out the window. You're letting go of your great attainment. That's Zazen. That's the perfection of blissful, tranquil concentration. If you hold to what you have developed, that is called poisoned concentration. That is called Zen concentration. illness or Zen sickness.
[06:20]
You have to get pretty good at Zen before you can have Zen sickness. You can't have Zen sickness before you get pretty concentrated. But once you're concentrated, you're a candidate for Zen sickness. And the more concentrated you get and the more blissful you get and the more elevated and sublime in the state, the more you'll be tempted to take up residence in that state and even perhaps Fortify it against any attacks. And not share it with distracted people. Not go to the coffee-tea area with your great state of concentration because it might get lost. No. Zazen is wherever you are you let go of it. And as soon as you let go of it It comes right back into your hand. A thousand times greater. And then you let go of that.
[07:22]
Constantly going beyond your attainments, dropping them. But enjoying them when they're happening. Enjoy them. Enjoy them. Don't kind of like say, okay, I've got to get this up so I'm not going to really get into it because it'll be harder. Oops, here comes some bliss. Yucko, you know. If I let this happen to me, I'll get a call. No, no. Let it happen. Like Keith says, you know. This time, for this time, this is, you know, warm California autumn time, you know. The sun's still nice and warm. Early autumn. It's still doing its thing, you know, still bringing things. to brightness and still making things get sweet. The season of myths and mellow fruitfulness. Close bosom friend, the maturing sun.
[08:32]
Conspiring with him how to load and bless with fruit the vines that round the thatched eaves run. To bend with apples the mossed cottage trees. To fill all fruit with ripeness to the core. To swell the gourd. To plump the hazel shells with a sweet currant. to set budding more and still more the later flowers or the beads until they think warm days will never cease or summer's overbrimmed their clammy selves.
[10:05]
Whatever the state of sweetness coming to sweeter and sweeter ripeness, let it ripen. If you let it ripen, it will naturally drop. So this letting the meditation state reach its ripeness in the moment, the moment of pleasure, the moment of calm, the moment of tranquility, let it ripen. Let the sun warm it to its fullness, its sweetness, and then it will drop. And let it drop. The ripeness of the moment, the fulfillment of the moment, and the dropping is zazen. Being upright with the moment, it reaches its ripeness and drops away. Be present with it. Make your presence like the warming sun. Bring every situation to completion and watch it drop.
[11:12]
So, Zazen is related to meditation in that way. It's not the meditation, it is the dropping of the meditation. Due to its fullness, due to its ripeness, and going beyond into total liberation. Not learning meditation, but going beyond learning meditation, going to the other shore of learning meditation. Just being upright is the formless site of enlightenment. Going beyond meditation into the formless site of liberation.
[12:23]
Zazen is also not giving, but it is giving, gone beyond giving. It is giving coming to its complete rightness and dropping away. Zazen is also not the precepts. It is the precepts reaching their fullness, reaching their rightness and dropping away. And so on. It's none of the paramitas. It's none of the... It's all of the paramitas. In other words, it's going beyond giving, going beyond precepts, going beyond patience, going beyond enthusiasm, going beyond meditation, and going beyond wisdom. That's what it is to just be upright. That's where you see Buddha. Beyond all practices. And non-practices. And at this formless site of awakening is where you will be able to see the creation of the world.
[14:00]
And see and witness all things dependently colorizing. To witness and realize Dharma. I know someone hearing about this might say, well, is there no practice then and no realization? And we don't say that there is practice in realization and we don't say there's not. We just say you can't defile it. It is a practice, we say, the practice of suchness, and the practice of suchness is the practice that you do without delay.
[15:18]
What practice can you do with no delay? That is the practice of suchness. How can you practice mindfulness with no delay? and with no preparation. That's the mindfulness, which is zazen. Of course, the Buddha is mindful. Although the Buddha is not always in a state of developed concentration, sometimes the Buddha is in just a completely ordinary state. And also Buddha can do exercises and go into these concentration states. Buddhas are not always in these concentration states. They sometimes are. But Buddhas are always mindful. 24 hours a day, mindful. But the mindfulness that they have is not a mindfulness which they do.
[16:27]
It's not a mindfulness which they go, okay, now I'm going to be mindful. Okay, one, two, three, mindful. Such a mindfulness is slightly or extensively defiled by making it into something you do, by making it into an object, me and my mindfulness. So many people, as I think many of you have heard, ask, well, how can you remember to be mindful? Mindfulness means, the root of the word mindful is memory, remember. To remember what the point is again, How can you remember to remember? And then you know what people do. They put signs around their room saying, remember. And they say, well, how can you remember to look at the signs? But after a while, it gets boring to be staring up at those signs all the time. Occasionally you want to look out the window. Well, then you put signs over the window saying, remember. And on the trees saying, remember.
[17:30]
But after a while, people stop looking at the signs in the trees and try to find some place in the landscape where there's no signs. so you can see some greenery. After a while, just close your eyes and go into complete forgetfulness. Because you've harassed yourself with this fascist system of remembering. We don't like that after a while. But most of us have to practice mindfulness for a long time to find out we don't want to do it that way. The way we want to do it, really, is by what we are that doesn't have to be remembered. in what we are. What are you that doesn't have to be remembered, that can't be remembered? That's mindfulness. Buddhas are always attentive.
[18:32]
always attentive to what's happening. You know, what's happening is they're always attentive to all sinchic beings, because all sinchic beings are always happening, and they're attentive to that, always. This is their joy, this is their Buddhahood. How do you pay attention? So maybe you know the story of the outrageous Zen master Ikkyu, Monk said to him, how do you practice Zen? He said, attention. Monk says, well, but, you know, how do you practice attention? Attention. But how can you remember to do it? Attention. There's no way to be yourself except the way you are yourself. This is giving up all devices, all contrivances, dropping them, and simply, utterly being yourself.
[19:50]
This is the four foundations of mindfulness, the way the Buddha practices them. Being upright is includes and embraces the two names of the Bodhisattva of Infinite Compassion. Well, there's many names, but in Chinese they have two different names, basically, for the Bodhisattva of Infinite Compassion. One name is kanan, or guanyin, which means listening to the sounds, listening to the sounds of all beings. That's one name. The other name is kanji zai vosatsu, which means to listen to or observe the way the self exists.
[20:54]
Zazen embraces both these kinds of bodhisattva, of infinite compassion. So does the four foundations of mindfulness. This means peace, right? Embracing both those aspects of Avalokiteshvara is the meaning of peace. Which also we have two sutras featuring these two aspects of Avalokiteshvara. is the ten verses, the ten verse one, Emne Juku Kanongil. The other is the Heart Sutra. So the first aspect of listening to the sounds is the aspect of Zazen where you take up residence in your body.
[21:59]
You listen to your body. You listen to the cries of your body. You take up residence in your body. You feel your posture. You feel your body relating to gravity, which it does, as you know, always. You feel this relationship. You enter. You listen to your body. You listen to your body breathing. You listen to your heart. You listen to your digestion. You listen to your nerves. You settle into this body. You listen to your feelings. You listen to your feelings. You feel your feelings. Pleasure, pain, neutral. Pleasure. Pain. Pain. Pleasure. Pain. [...] Pleasure. Pain. Pain. Pleasure. Pain. Pain.
[23:01]
Pleasure. Pleasure. Pain. Pain. Pleasure. You listen. It's happening. Pay attention to it. It's happening. It's being delivered to you every moment. Listen. Listen. Listen to your pleasure. Listen to your pain. Listen to your feelings. They're happening. This is called guanyin. When you listen to your pain, guan yin is in your body, is in your mind. Then, the third foundation of my past, listen to your consciousness. Listen to your consciousness. Listen to your emotions. Listen to your opinions. Listen to your conceptions. Listen, listen, listen. Take up residence in your consciousness fully. Fourth foundation of mindfulness, listen to the Dharma. Listen to the Dharma. Listen to the teaching. Listen to the five skandhas. Listen to the four great elements. Listen to the four noble truths.
[24:03]
Listen to the teaching of dependent core arising. Listen, listen, listen. It's being told to you every moment. Listen, listen. Be mindful. Take up residence. And then, Kanji Saibosatsu, the bodhisattva, which is the meditation on the way your self exists. After settling into your circumstances, look at how the self exists. Meditate on that. See how that is. How is it? And how is self and other related? Again, now studying dependent horizon and seeing the way the self exists. These two bodies, these two aspects of compassion. Be compassionate to yourself in those two ways. Bring yourself into the fullness of your life. This is Sazen. Got a watch?
[25:06]
What if I don't want to see? Here's one. Nice cute little lady's watch. It's an interesting watch. It says, watch this. It's time to stop. Okay? Everybody, stop. Now give that up. Okay, so... The wonderful ancestor Hui Kug studied with the wonderful ancestor Bodhidharma. Bodhidharma mostly just showed the practice. He just sat, mostly. That was his way. He was lucky. He could just sit. Just to make it very, very, very, very, very clear, he just sat and sat and sat.
[26:14]
What's the practice? What's the practice? Excuse me, what is the practice? Will you show us the practice, please? For nine years, they asked, and asked and asked, and he showed and he showed and he showed. He showed and he showed and he showed. So, thanks to him, other ways are possible to show now. Other ways to show the same thing. Anyway, finally he did say something to Vekha. He said, make your mind like a wall. He sat facing a wall and his mind was like the wall. Make your mind like a wall. This is called Zazen.
[27:16]
This is called just being upright. What's it like to have a mind like a wall? Outwardly, he said, outwardly, don't activate your mind around objects. Inwardly, no coughing or sighing about what's going on in your mind. Do you understand? Outwardly, no, don't activate your mind around the objects you see. In other words, you see a tree, what do you see? What do you see when you see a tree? You see a tree. What does it mean to activate your mind around the tree? It means to say, now that, you know, to get excited about it and say, wow, that is really a great tree, wow, this is, or that tree really exists, or that tree doesn't exist. Or that tree is like the other tree.
[28:18]
No, just see the tree. Now, if you do want to compare one tree to another, then that comparison between one tree and the other tree is another object out there. Don't get excited about that one, too. Don't activate the mind around the objects. Just let the objects be there. In whatever way they are, which nobody knows about. Really. Knowing what the objects are is another way that you activate your mind around the object. There's a tree, and you know what it is, then your mind gets a little agitated when you know it. To let it be there before you know it or don't know it, before you make any comment, that's called not activating the mind around objects. Or another way he said it was, don't get involved in the objects. Your mind has objects, it doesn't have objects, you can't have consciousness. So consciousness has objects, but you can stop it right there.
[29:20]
and just let the mind have enough of an object to be conscious that's enough or like they say in mindfulness be mindfulness of the body just barely enough that you can be aware of an object no more and of course no less just be upright meet it just so that's what he means by Outwardly, don't activate or excite the mind around the objects. Don't get hung up on them. Inwardly. Of course, the objects inwardly too, but anyway, inwardly into your mind, don't cough and sigh. Don't say, what a great thought. Or, what a lousy thought. Or, kind of like, I think I'm going to faint, my practice is so cool. Or, I really got a lousy practice. Or, I have certain opinions about certain people, one way or another.
[30:28]
Just let all this stuff be inwardly, too. So that's the instruction he gave to wake up, then wake up. Practice, try to practice that way, for we do not know exactly how long. It wasn't timed. back in the early days. But he came back at some point and said to Bodhi Dharma, well, okay, I have no involvements. When I see things, I just let it be like that. Bodhi Dharma says, well, isn't that nihilistic? to not have any involvements with the world? And Huayca said, No.
[31:31]
And Bodhidharma said, Prove it. And Huayca said, I'm just clearly aware and no words can reach it. Bodhidharma said, doubt no more. This is the mind of all Buddhas. Clearly aware, no words can reach it. This is being upright. There are words all around it. Every word in the universe is around this mind. This mind is aware of all those words. Every one And none of them reach it. It doesn't push him away. It doesn't pull him on. Pain and suffering are all around. It doesn't push him away.
[32:33]
It doesn't pull him on. Bliss and freedom are all around. It doesn't pull him on. It doesn't push him away. It simply is aware. And nothing reaches it. It is like a wall. It is Bodhidharma. It is way cut. it is all the ancestors it is you when you are simply yourself and nothing reaches you and nothing goes away from you so what is this zazen? what is this being upright? Nobody knows. No words can reach it.
[33:36]
Nobody knows what it is. It is completely free. And it is exactly what we are every moment of our life. this way of being what you are in each moment or anyway in a moment is the gate to the self-fulfilling samadhi is the gate to understanding, to pentagonizing of all things
[35:07]
but it's a gate and then it's the practice that you continue once you have entered the realm of dharma because the practice of just being yourself is selfless so it can continue even after the self is begotten It is the practice of the forgotten self. So when the self thinks of this practice, the self feels stumped, perhaps, and frustrated. Because the self does not do this practice. The forgotten self does this practice. But if you still are holding to yourself, then
[36:17]
Be compassionate and settle into yourself. Be compassionate and patient with the fact that you still have yourself in your hand and you're holding to it. Settle into the pain and suffering of holding yourself. Compassionately, gently accept your situation. And when you're finally completely settled into having the self that you're holding, at that point you will forget yourself. Uprightly settling into our attachments, attachments drop away. But the settling, again, must be gentle. And there naturally is some sweetness in it. It isn't always sweet.
[37:24]
But we have to gently settle because we're settling into pain. There's some pain here because of the clean. We can't wait until there's no more clinging, no more pain, and then check in and be deliberated. We have to check in now. And if there's no pain, fine. One time I was having, I was here at Tassajara and I was checking into my situation and I didn't find any pain. So I didn't exactly run to Suzuki Rashi, but I did go see him. and say, well, you know, it's not difficult anymore. What am I missing? He said, well, sometimes it may be easy for you. It's okay. Don't worry. It didn't last.
[38:27]
But even a little, you know, A little bit of break in the pain and even a little bit of sweetness sometimes can be, you know, something you might suspect as due to some kind of denial. Maybe so. Who knows? Anyway, check in. Do Heartbreak Hotel. Look at my babies. It's done and you left me, left me all alone. I found a new place to dwell. I found a new place to dwell. It's at the end of a lonely street. It's at the end of a lonely street. That's Heartbreak Hotel. That's Heartbreak Hotel. But sometimes,
[39:37]
The name gets changed and it's Travel Lodge. And there's a swimming pool, you know, with old slide. Yeah. We're not in control of the housing assignments. We just check in to wherever we are. We make no selection. We just be where we are. This is called total devotion to immobile sitting. Total devotion to not moving from where you are. to all the tremendous variation in one day. Be devoted total to not moving from your present universally given experience.
[40:48]
God-given experience. Goddess-given experience. This is not a mistake. You're not at the wrong address. But again, gently, flexibly settle in. And then be upright there. I don't say, then the doors will open. That is the open door. that in this realm of uprightness there is no and then and then there's bliss and then there's freedom this is freedom nobody knows why it's freedom or how but
[42:14]
It's a pretty consistent story. They all tell the same story. The self wants to know, well, and then what? The forgotten self can't remember to ask. Tell me recently the benefits of Alzheimer's. One is that, you know, you never notice that there's reruns on TV. And let's see the other one. You keep meeting new and interesting people, right? And you can't remember who you are. I added that to a list. You can't remember past and future.
[43:22]
Za means sit. So in this school, za, sit, means to realize absolute freedom and to be unperturbed by all outward circumstances. Just like his ancestor, Bodhidharma. See what you think? Be completely free of the objects. Pain, suffering, cruelty, happiness, sadness, whatever they are. Be free and unperturbed by them. That's what it means to sit. And Zen means to see your original nature and not be accused.
[46:07]
That was our Zen. When you see cruelty in the world, when you see an object called cruelty, we maybe feel duty-bound to get upset. To sit, according to the ancestor, does not mean that when you see cruelty you get excited and upset. means when you see cruelty you completely completely completely experience freedom in relationship to the cruelty you do not try to push the cruelty away or pull it on you you become intimate with the cruelty
[47:26]
become intimate with the cruelty, you are not upset. You are not disturbed by the cruelty. You are intimate with it. It is not other than you. It cannot push you around. You cannot push it around. And you meet the cruelty in that way. And you use that moment of needing cruelty as a moment to realize peace and harmony in this world. You transform in this way cruelty into peace. Not you. The practice of intimacy with cruelty renders cruelty inefficient. It takes no effect. But if you ignore the cruelty or push the cruelty, then there is cruelty in the world and you think so.
[48:42]
And then there is cruelty in the world and you have made it live. Because you did not become intimate. Because when you saw the object called cruelty, you activated your mind and became a slave of cruelty, a servant of cruelty. And your light extended the cruelty into the world. But if you stay upright and close, so close that there's no separation between you and cruelty, so there's no difference between you and cruelty, then there's peace and harmony in you all.
[49:50]
If you run at the cruelty and indulge in it, that's not intimacy. If you run away from the cruelty, that's not intimacy. To meet it with not the slightest hairs-breadth deviation, this is called fitting. which is absolute freedom from all circumstances. Now if it's something wonderful like Buddha, same practice. You don't run after the Buddha, you don't run away from the Buddha. If it's great pleasure and peace, you don't run after the peace, you don't run away from peace. If you run after the peace, you make peace into slavery.
[50:54]
If you push the peace away, you make peace into slavery. No matter what it is, peacefulness, cruelty, kindness, roughness, brutality, whatever it is, if there's a slightest bit of difference between you and it, you become possessed by it, and it turns into poison. But through intimacy with all objects, so intimate that the object does not disturb you at all because you're so close to it, you are one with it, then, no matter what it is, you're free and there's peace. But how can you be gentle? How can you be flexible enough? How can you be tender enough to settle into that kind of intimacy with something very sweet or something very bitter?
[51:58]
How can you be gentle enough to settle into something with intimacy with something very soft or something very hard? Wow. Nobody knows how. When I said this, I could see faces wincing and bodies jerking. Because it's awesome to contemplate getting that close to cruelty. We want to be at least a little ways away from it. Perhaps in another state or another world. But the wanting to be a little bit away from cruelty, that desire to be away from it, defiles your practice and lets cruelty live. If there's something cruel and we all evacuate the area, cruelty's in charge.
[53:05]
If we had a really monstrous person here at the house and we all left, Wouldn't help that person. Wouldn't help Cal Sahara. Bitter medicine. The sweetest. So, you know, one time in a Zen monastery, the monks' eating bowls were starting to disappear.
[54:07]
They wondered where they were going. And someone, I don't know, someone discovered that in one of the monks' rooms there was a lot of eating bowls starting to accumulate. And they reported this situation to the teacher. And the teacher says, okay, let's get him. And so all the monks and the teacher went to the monk's room where all the bowls were. And they brought with them all of their valuable possessions and gave them to him. So of course there was no more, nothing more to be stolen. And the monk had everything in the world and he became the great master.
[55:13]
But I can't tell you his name to protect the innocent. But it's somebody We all know really well. But you need to get to know this person a little bit better. There's still a little bit of separation between you and this dirty thief. If you and I can somehow find a way to settle so intimately that there's not the least bit of separation between us and all evil and all cruelty and all pain, if we can close that gap, we will also completely seal the gap between ourselves and the perfect path of all Buddhas.
[56:30]
But if there's the slightest bit of separation between us and any kind of problem in this world, the slightest bit of distance, then we will also be separated by that distance from perfect liberation. And you might think, I might say, of course we wouldn't mind getting close to perfect liberation. It's getting close to our imprisonment that we have a problem with. But actually, when it comes down to it, it's just as difficult, it's just as scary to get close to perfect liberation as it is to get close to utter cruelty. They're both very difficult when you get close. It's just as difficult. Actually, I think to get as close to Suzuki Rashi, to get really close to Suzuki Rashi, was just as difficult for me as it would be to get close to certain other people who I find, you know.
[57:49]
Yeah. I mean, sometimes, you know, you used to have kind of like, you know, a bodily reaction to people, right? Like the smell of some people's breath you really don't like. It's really hard to be, to, to, to smell it. Of certain people's body odor. You know, you can have an allergic reaction, right? It's not your fault. But anyway, how do you get, how do you become intimate with that allergic reaction? And you know, you might have an allergic reaction to Siddhartha Roshi. If he was here, you know, he came to visit. Some of you might have an allergic reaction to him. You might think, well, I heard he's a great Zen master, but I just feel uncomfortable when I get near him. Most people didn't, but that's because they didn't get near him. You really get near to anybody, there's a time, no matter who they are, when you get close. when it gets really hard not to run away or grappling very hard not when you get really close not to make it into an object very hard but most of all you know who is hardest to get close to and you can start with that one get close to that one that's always with you
[59:14]
And if you can finally do that, then you might be able to be close to somebody else. But it's tough work. If you don't achieve complete intimacy with ease, don't be surprised. All the ancestors had a hard time. If you have a hard time, you have wonderful company. But although they had a hard time, they also were devoted to it. So if you want to be like the great ancestors, or whatever, then devote yourself to this intimacy with yourself. And it's only because I want lunch that I'm going to stop. Otherwise, I'm just going to keep talking until all beings achieve intimacy with themselves.
[60:29]
Hallelujah. Hallelujah.
[60:41]
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