Well, I mean, letting somebody affect me doesn't mean I'm involved. If you punch me in the nose, I'm not really involved with you punching me in the nose. It just hurts. What? Pardon? Involved is different from dependent. The sun rises, the sun is out there so we live, but we're not really involved with the sun. That's what I'm trying to say. We depend on it, but we're not really involved. We think we are, and that's where our confusion arises. We think we're involved with each other, but we're not really involved with each other. We are not involved, actually. We are intimate, but not involved. People confuse merging with intimacy. So, but again, I think the example I gave before was maybe easier to see.

[01:15]

You can feel pain, you can feel pleasure, and you can get happy because of pleasure and sad because of pain. It's possible. That's what people often do, but it's not necessary. It's not necessary to get happy when you have a pleasant experience. You can just have a pleasant experience. And it's possible to have an unpleasant experience, a painful experience, physical or mental, and just let it be that. And in fact, unless we give up that reactivity to pain and pleasure, we're going to continue to suffer. You can have an unpleasant experience and not suffer. You can have an unpleasant experience and be very happy. Matter of fact, as you may have known, many women, when they're having their babies, are having tremendous pain, and some of them just let the pain be pain.

[02:21]

And at those moments where they let that intense pain just be intense pain, and they are not unhappy about that pain, they have a vision of creation at that moment. And they remember that time as being maybe the closest that they ever have come up to that point, to enlightenment. But of course, some women at various points of pain, including that one, they resist it. They're unhappy that they're having the pain. That unhappiness, because you're having the pain, you exile yourself from creation. But if the sun burns you, or a fire burns you, and it hurts, and you just let the hurt be hurt, you enter into the creative and healing relationship of this world. And the same with pleasure. When pleasure happens, and you just let it be pleasure, in other words, you just are

[03:25]

there for the pleasure, and you don't jump away from it into being happy about it. You're just right there. You've realized intimacy with the pleasure. But of course, the usual thing is pleasure, and then we think, oh, this is great, this pleasure is wonderful, I wonder if we're going to have more of this later. And then you notice that you missed the pleasure. You exiled yourself from the intimacy with the pleasure because you reacted to it. Does that make more sense? So most people are emotional about these feelings, but it's not necessary. It's possible to train the mind to not get involved that way, with pain and pleasure. Same way, people can insult you, or praise you. So again, if people speak ill of us, we often feel bad. And when they speak well of us, we often feel good. But again, it's possible to listen to somebody speak ill of you, and just listen and hear,

[04:29]

they are speaking ill of, just happens to be me. And that's it, period. They're speaking ill of me, period. Not they're speaking ill of me, and I feel terrible, and I'm going to kill them. No, just speaking ill of me, period. Speaking well of me, period. I don't get unhappy when people, I'm not saying I don't, but I'm just saying we train the mind to come to the point of hearing the ill speaking of yourself, and stopping there, like a mind, like a wall, just boom. That's it. And they're praising us, that's it. It's hard to get back to that place, but sometimes it can happen, like, you are the greatest Zen master of all time, period. There's no vibration after that. You are the greatest Zen master of all time. No. Greatest Zen Master of all time. Even the 10,000 sages don't know. Wow, that was

[05:37]

it. Nothing happened. I didn't fall for that. Maybe it's true. Does that make more sense? Now I'll practice it. Check that out, okay? Give up getting happy when something pleasant happens and getting unhappy when something unpleasant happens. Check out giving up getting happy when you get something and getting unhappy when you lose something. Check out giving up getting happy when people speak well of you and getting unhappy when they speak ill of you. Check out giving up being happy when you hear rumors about how people are talking about you favorably and feel bad when your reputation is going downhill. Those are called

[06:46]

the eight worldly thoughts. Basically, they all boil down to big name, big me. Yes. How can you approach being involved in practice? Well, that's a very good question. You are now enlightened. Congratulations. Do you want something else? Yes. What? At the beginning

[07:54]

of practice, unfortunately, most people have to practice to get something. So maybe at this stage of your practice you've got to think in terms of doing practices like practicing concentration and being kind to people. Maybe you have to think that you have to get something out of that in order to do it. Okay. The place where I'm stuck is now I think I have to practice without trying to get something. That's my involvement. I can't practice unless I'm not trying to get something. I'm just teaching the most advanced phases of practice tonight. Maybe next time we'll talk about the beginnings. Bodhidharma talked about, I'm just having to mention what Bodhidharma taught. He taught the actual becoming Buddha kind of practice. But in fact, people usually have to go through an earlier phase of practicing all kinds of good things with the expectation of getting something. Otherwise, most people won't come to Zen Center unless they think they're going to get something, like at least a good vegetarian

[08:57]

meal or to be able to come into a clean building. This place is pretty clean, don't you think? Nice, huh? Come in off the street. Even they keep the street clean. In fact, I even picked some stuff up there earlier too. So now they redid the street. It's getting really spiffy around here. So come to Zen Center. It's really pretty. And Green Gulch has even got flowers and stuff. Yeah? Yeah, we can do that for like six more months. Okay, so enjoy practicing to get something for six months. Okay, six more. But maybe actually six years is long enough. Maybe one more. Seven, that's a nice number. And then give up that practice. But if you refuse to keep practicing unless you can get something, then I say, okay, okay.

[09:57]

Keep practicing to get something. It's better to keep practicing even with that gaining idea than to give up entirely probably. I'm not sure about that, but it might be. Although it's antithetical, actually, to practice and it's really just another worldly activity and you're actually causing yourself more trouble. It's slightly better trouble than the trouble you'd be making for yourself if you weren't practicing. But to practice to gain anything, you're actually digging yourself deeper into hell, but not as fast as if you did some other stuff, like if you robbed banks and stuff, you'd go faster. But, in fact, a lot of people are practicing at Zen Center and just getting more and more trouble by the way they're practicing. But it's still better than what some of the other … like some people come here actually and they look around and say, these people are practicing Buddhism? My God! I said, you should have seen the way they used to be. Generally

[11:03]

speaking, people are coming along very nicely, but they've got a long ways to go. We don't like to have this little test we give people before they come to the door that proves they're enlightened and then they can come in. We let anybody in pretty much. So a lot of people come here because they assume some other good people are already in here, but actually the place is full of people who are coming here to find good people. But just that motivation, sort of generally speaking, lifts the situation up gradually. So things are coming along really well. So maybe we should consider pretty soon you giving up your gaining idea, giving up. But we've got to be gentle about this because it doesn't do any good to like push real hard and say, okay, is it anil? Yeah, okay anil, knock it off. Just stop trying to get something.

[12:04]

Maybe we should talk more carefully about, do you really want to keep trying to get something and you say, well, I sort of do. And you say, well, go ahead. And you say, well, actually I don't want to anymore. So you want to find some way to help just like letting go of trying to get something. But we have to start with that, but maybe six years is enough. Maybe not, maybe it has to be sixteen or sixty. But eventually you start practicing without trying to get something. You do get to that point, but it sometimes takes a long time to get to that point. And Bodhidharma was talking to somebody who had been practicing to get something for a long time. Like we said, he said, my mind's agitated because he's trying to get something. Please calm my mind. So then he says, go find your mind. But what did he do between the second and the third line? He maybe practiced intensively for a long time and kept trying to get something, which was agitating his mind. Now he's trying to get his mind, trying to succeed at the assignment that the teacher gave him, right?

[13:12]

He gave up finally, yeah, because he worked hard enough at trying to get something. He finally said, okay, I give up. Yeah, exactly, and you may have to go through the pain of not giving up X amount of time before that accumulates to the point where the giving up happens, not by you doing it, it just drops away. So the Buddhas are sitting in the middle of the world of suffering with all the suffering beings, and if you sit there in the middle of the world of suffering all beings, and every one of us is sitting in the middle of the world of suffering all beings, if you just sit there, your mind becomes softer and softer by that pain, and gradually it just is willing to drop off this gaining approach. And six years may just, you know, not be quite long enough, maybe more like twenty, and then, but you know, that's not so long. It'll be here soon enough. Just try not to waste the

[14:16]

next fourteen. Try to stay at the center of the world of suffering, and your body and mind will become soft, and then they'll just drop away at that point. And then you'll be practicing, but not to get anything. Thank you very much for being so serious. Hello. Now it works. Eileen, thank you for taking care of the sitting group this year and last year, and thank you, Susan, for taking care of the sitting group this year and last year, and thank you, Patty, for taking care of the website. Is that what it is? Is your

[15:18]

name Grant? Grant? Matt? Did anybody else come in? No? Okay. And that's, I thought of that because this is the last meeting for a while, and in the fall the meetings will be on Tuesday night. I hope that doesn't cause you too much trouble. And I'm not sure when the first Tuesday will be. October 23rd is the first one? And according to Bert there's

[16:20]

two Thursdays in September. So maybe he's right. So maybe, but check, maybe September 13th? And the 20th? No, 20th? Yeah, so maybe the 13th and the 20th, and quite likely the 20th. So there's two more Thursdays, maybe. I just thought I might mention that there is a story that's been going around for a pretty long time, that a person named Bodhidharma … Is there a picture of him outside there? Kind of a painting of him? And see that little statue there on the altar? That's supposed to be Bodhidharma, I think. So he's the … we

[17:33]

say that there was this person, well we don't really say that, but we talk as though there was this person named Bodhidharma, an Indian, kind of an Indian Buddha, who went to China and was the first, we call this person the first ancestor of the Zen tradition in China. And so there's a story that what he taught his disciple was … Does anybody know what he taught his disciple? Don't be afraid to say it. Don't be afraid of showing off. Yes, Fred? When he set my mind at peace, this one person, is that what you mean? He said to Huiko, I have already

[18:37]

set your mind at peace. And Huiko said … And Huiko what? Thanked him. Thanked him? Yes. Yeah, there's a story. So, do you hear that one? I heard it differently. What did you hear? I heard that he asked Bodhidharma to pacify his mind. What did you say? She said pacify, what did you say? Set at ease. Yeah, set at ease. Same thing. Yeah, same thing. And he said, go and find your mind or something like that. Ah, good for you. Nice going there, kiddo. You missed a line there. Give me twenty. Yeah, so Huiko was one of his main disciples. He said to Bodhidharma,

[19:41]

Dear teacher, please pacify my mind. Huiko said, show me your mind. You said, go find your mind? Or show it to him? Yeah, show me your mind. Huiko said, can't find it. He went away for a while. Well, the way it's listed is Bodhidharma, Huiko says, please pacify my mind. Bodhidharma says, show me your mind. Huiko says, I can't find it. But there was many years between the second and third line. He didn't just go, can't find it. He looked for a long time. Actually, he thought he found it, but then he wasn't sure, you know, and so on. So he looked exhaustively, and actually he might have come back several times during those many years and said, well, this is my mind.

[20:44]

And Bodhidharma says, well, blah, blah, blah. So finally he realized he couldn't find his mind. He said, I can't find my mind. And then Bodhidharma said, I have pacified your mind. And then Huiko said, thanks a lot. But he didn't have an arm at that point, right? He had cut off his arm or something? Yeah, another part of the story is that when he first came to study with Bodhidharma, he said, Master, would you please teach me about the Buddha way? And Bodhidharma more or less said, you know, I don't have time for insincere people. And Bodhidharma was sitting in a cave, supposedly, and Huiko was standing out in the snow. He stood there for a long time, and snow got deeper and deeper up around his knees or something. And still Bodhidharma wouldn't recognize him.

[21:46]

So Huiko thought, well, maybe if I cut my arm off, he would think I wasn't kidding around. So he cut his arm off and said, here. Now will you teach me? And Bodhidharma says, well, if you're going to go that far, okay. That's another story about how Huiko taught Bodhidharma. Okay? There's another story of what Bodhidharma taught Huiko. You know another one? Anybody? Huh? You know another one? No? Yes? You do? What is it? Oh, you want another story from me? No, I did want to know if you knew another story of Bodhidharma. No, you don't know one. Okay.

[22:47]

I do. Yes? Yeah, that's right. How's that one go? Yeah, right. He said, outwardly, have no involvements. Inwardly, no coughing or sighing or gasping in the mind. With a mind like a wall. In other words, this way of dealing with your mind is like a mind like a wall. Thus you enter the way. So I've talked with you before about the mind like a wall, right? So Bodhidharma taught a radical non-involvement in your experience.

[23:49]

So when you hear things or see people or hear people or smell people or taste people or touch people, or your food, or you perceive ideas that you have or feelings that you have, so outwardly or inwardly, you don't get involved in what's going on. Radical non-involvement. Yes? Is this different from how we have described? Is it different? When you say radical, is it radical compared to the teachers or compared to how the Buddha taught? It's radical in the sense that it goes to the root. We're not talking about just a superficial non-involvement. We're talking about, like, we're not talking about just like, you know, I don't know what, not taking drugs. It's like maybe not getting involved with drugs, you know, or

[24:53]

or not stealing is like, you know, not shoplifting is like not getting involved in stealing. So that's part of it, but in some ways that's superficial. At the root, even in your mind, if you grasp the things you see or get involved with, you know, like we talked about last week, if you get involved with the sunset, like it's the sun's coming up, or rather it's dark, it's around four in the morning, you know, four or five, and you start getting into the sunset, like expecting the sunset, that's like getting involved with it. So a radical non-involvement would be, you don't expect the sunset, for example, and you also don't expect sunrises, and you don't expect sunsets, and you don't expect people to be what they appear to be. So you don't grasp, you don't try to control what's happening,

[25:59]

you're not involved with what's happening, but you're right there, totally present, and not involved. And he taught this, he said, Thus you enter the way. This is the way to enter the way. And what's the way? The way is to be like totally intimate with everything. So the way to be totally intimate with all beings is to not get involved with them. That's the way you enter into intimacy. That's the way you enter into the kind of relationship where enlightenment happens. I just thought I might mention that.

[27:03]

How's that? How's what? It's great. How do you, uh? Did you like it? Well, I don't understand what you mean. Getting involved. Friendly idiot. Getting involved. Getting involved all about you. Trying to get it? Yeah, well. Can't get it. Well, if you try to get it. That's a no-no. That's like an involvement. No, I understand that. Well, good. You have to be intimate, but not get involved. Pardon? You have to be intimate, but not get involved. Well, you don't have to be intimate. We're trying to realize intimacy. We already are intimate, but we sometimes don't think we are. Like some people, we think, well, that person is way over there and like,

[28:12]

you know, I really don't care that much what happens to them because they got their life and I got mine. And, you know, if they are nice to me, that would be good, and if they're not, I'll try to get away from them rather than understanding our life together in such a way that we both become completely cool. In other words, intimacy. The way we enter it is by when you see things, you don't activate your mind. Like, I see Gloria and it's kind of like I see Gloria. Wow. I mean, you know, right after I see... When I see Gloria and then I start getting involved with Gloria

[29:15]

and I think, oh, well, Gloria could be blah, blah, blah... Ah, she's blah, blah, blah... But when I see Gloria and it's just Gloria, then it's like, wow. It's just like, astounding. Because it's through seeing Gloria and not being involved with what I see that we enter into our actual relationship, which is like the point of the instruction. It's like giving up entanglement so that we can really be together. So having a calm mind, or having a calm mind, with a calm mind, you can perceive that or that? Ah, yeah, well, that's, yes. And in the story that Fred started

[30:17]

and Jackie completed, his mind wasn't calm. And he wanted the teacher to pacify or calm his mind. So the teacher said, find your mind. And when he couldn't find his mind, then he couldn't be involved with his mind. And when he couldn't be involved with his mind, his mind was calm. But if you can get involved with your mind, well, you can cause quite a bit of agitation there. Because you can, like, make it better and move it over to the right and lift it up and set it down and make it smarter and protect it from this. And it gets to be quite a mess because you're involved. And also, you're involved in you and your mind, which is also very upsetting. If there's you and your mind, that's a kind of involvement. Or me and Gloria, that's kind of an involvement. But when there's just Gloria and no me, there's no involvement. And that's not the end of the story,

[31:21]

that's just a door to this relationship which isn't either one of us but doesn't exclude us. Yes? If you're conscious of non-involvement, then you sort of become involved in non-involvement. And that has an opposite effect. Yes, so don't be conscious of non-involvement. Well, it's easy to say. Easy to say, that's why I said it, I said the easy thing. Now you do the hard thing. Or rather, I said the easy thing, now you be the hard thing. You be the non-involved without the idea of non-involved. Yes, but it always pops up, don't get involved. Are you ready? Ready, here it comes. Now see if you can just like not get involved in this.

[32:22]

One, two, three. Did you get involved? No, because I didn't know what to make out of it. Well, so you were a success, you're a success. But if you did this, I wouldn't have gotten involved. I know you can get involved, that's one of the important things to remember. Don't worry that if you stop being involved you'll lose the ability to get involved if you need it later. Just take a little break for like ten seconds now and then or two weeks or ten minutes. Don't worry, you won't forget how to get involved. So, not to worry that you're going to lose your ability to grasp. But did you see there for a second you didn't get anything there, did you? You didn't grab that, did you? Well, that's it. You didn't do that either, did you? No. I just provided you this excellent opportunity

[33:23]

which you managed not to grasp. How did you come up with that? I thought, you know, I'm going to go one, two, three. That took a lot of thinking. It took a lot of thinking. Believe me, I'm thinking over here. I got all this information, you know. She's talking about, you know, all this stuff about how it's hard not to grasp at not getting involved. How hard it is not to get involved with not getting involved. So I thought I'd go, one, two, three, don't get involved. Right? To see if she could not get involved with one, two, three, don't get involved. But I stopped before that. And she wasn't involved. I went, one, two, three, and before I gave her the test she was already a success. So she never did get the test.

[34:25]

But it's not too late. Ready for the test? I want to thank you for helping me. You're welcome. Yeah. And that was actually a very difficult one. Yeah. Okay, now comes the easier one. Ready? One, two, three, don't get involved. Did you get involved? Yes, I did. You passed one and failed one. So you're at 50%, you know? Okay, now are you getting involved in your failure? Not really. A little bit. I had enough to cause problems. There you go, see? Now if it was even a little less, it would cause even less problems. Right. So can you go back to zero involvement with that failure? Yes. That was an easy one.

[35:26]

Okay, well, we start with easy ones sometimes. Is that alright? Okay. It's easy if you get involved when you're just sitting. But if you don't have a job... Wait a second. Just I want to point out that we haven't been just sitting here. Okay? We've been talking. But everything is placid. Everything is placid? No, we weren't placid just now. She was really excited. I was placid. Anyway, you think it's easy when you're sitting quietly? Well, fine. So, let's not just sit there, okay? Come here. Come here now, but don't get involved. Come on, come on, come on, don't get involved. Don't get involved. Are you managing not to get involved? Yeah, I'm walking, but I'm not involved.

[36:27]

Well, good. Now walk back. Did you get involved? Are you involved? Now come over here again. Are you involved? Yeah, I'm involved in walking. You are? Well, don't be involved in a walk. Well, try to walk without getting involved in it. That doesn't involve my mind. You're not involved? Your mind's not involved? Good. Congratulations. Thank you. You weren't just sitting there. Are you okay? Yeah, but that's not what I'm saying. I didn't say that was what you were saying. I was just showing you that you could walk up here without getting involved. And you did. That was great. But that... Okay, you want something harder? I don't even understand this one, sir. I don't seem to understand it. That's not being involved. You're not getting involved in understanding.

[37:29]

It doesn't seem human, not to get involved. It's not. We're not talking about being human. We're talking about getting over being human. Oh, oh, yeah, that's right. You got the human part down already. Now it's like, get over it. Give it up. Let go of being human. Don't let it get you down like it tends to do. You got it locked there. Pardon? You got it locked in your teeth. Now, will I get involved in her indictment?

[38:30]

Am I gonna get involved in that? Am I? I'm not gonna get involved in that. I'm not gonna get involved in not being involved. I'm not gonna get involved. I'm gonna get involved. Now, how can I get involved? Are you accusing me of being involved? How could you? How dare you accuse me of that? Any other questions? I was gonna say, I get confused because you said don't get involved and when the sun's coming up you can still have this appearance of it getting involved

[39:35]

when the sun's coming up. You may start trying to jump up and reach out to the sun and want to kiss the sun and dance with the sun and have this outward emotion and passion about it. If you jump up and try to kiss the sun and you expect that you're gonna be able to kiss it, that's getting involved. But if you just jump for the sun, that's not a problem. That's not involved. Yeah, you might be doing that but if you're doing that to get the sun to come down and play with you, then you're involved with it. But if you're just totally doing that but not trying to get the sun to back off or come closer then you're not involved. If you jump up towards the sun but not in order to get to the sun he's a basketball player if you jump up towards the sun but if you're trying to get something

[40:39]

then you're getting involved or if you're trying to avoid something like you're trying to jump to the sun to avoid the earth then you're getting involved in your relationship with the earth and trying to blame it on the sun. But just jumping and stuff like that doesn't mean you're involved. That's what I'm just saying. It means you're totally intimate with the sun. When the sun comes up and you freak then you're pretty intimate with it. It surprises you. It's astounding. But if you're expecting it, it's kind of like, well, it's a little bit better or worse than you expected but basically you had it down before it happened and you're not going to be surprised and then you start getting burned out in this life because you're like pre-digesting everything or you're undercutting everything by your expectations.

[41:39]

So if you give up your expectations of the sun then you enter into this creative relationship with it which may, in your case, be that you will jump and scream. It may mean that you go make yourself oatmeal but it will be creative and that's the point. You will be involved in the creation and that kind of relationship heals you and the sun and heals the split in your relationship which is the point of this meditation to heal the world, heal the entire world, make everything whole through not getting involved in separateness. But that doesn't mean we ignore it. It just means we don't grasp it. Okay? So let's see, there's Nancy and Lynn and Berndt.

[42:43]

I was just wondering if the sun, does the sun interact with us? Does it interact with it? Yes, it does. So whether the... If I have a jungle and it has a tiger, I assume it interacts? Yes, you assume an interaction? You're interacting, I'm suggesting you're interacting with everything. But anyway. Go ahead. I was just thinking of the sun. I don't know if the sun's going to do what it does. The sun's going to do what it does, yeah. And the fact that we witness it and not witness it doesn't really matter. It's not like, I guess we absorb the rays. Well anyway, you're producing quite a few philosophies there. First of all, you said the sun will do what it does. Yes, that's right. However, what the sun does, it doesn't do by itself.

[43:48]

It does because of its relationships with the rest of the universe. It does what it does and you do what you do. Like you have your hand on your chin right now and that's where your hand is. But you're not in control of your hand or your face or your chin. The whole universe is creating this Nancy. The whole universe creates the sun, which then does what it does. But what it does, it doesn't do from its sun-ness. It does by its relationship with everything, including you and me. And we do what we do, but we don't do anything aside from the sun. If there weren't a sun there, we would like instantly freeze. We wouldn't be here. But still, because of our relationship with the sun and our relationship with each other, we do what we do. We have a relationship. So all of us depend on the sun and the sun depends on all of us. There is no sun without us.

[44:49]

There's not a sun out there without us. I'm not saying there's nothing out there, but it's not a sun. It's only a sun because of our mind. And we only have a mind because there's a sun, because that's the kind of mind we have. And to enter into that actual relationship, Bodhidharma suggests have no involvements, and then you can enter the way of having a nice relationship with the sun, and with Nancy, and with Cindy, and with Patty, and with Kathleen, and with David, and with Irene, [...] and even with Betsy. If Michael is jumping up toward the sun, he's not going to get anything out of it.

[45:51]

I didn't say he's not going to get anything out of it. I said he's not trying to get anything out of it. Okay. Oh, yeah. All right. See the difference? He's not trying to get anything out of it. Yeah. Yeah? Yeah. It's a little harder to jump up toward the basket and put a ball in it without trying to get anything out of it. It'd be easy for you, wouldn't it? Right. I don't care whether I'm in the basket. There you go. So you can teach Michael how to do that. No. No. It's hard with Michael. I can't. So I can't teach him because... No, no, [...] no. It's not the same. No, no. No, no, [...] no. It's good that you understand that Michael... You should check out Michael and see if you feel that Michael's like into getting something out of basketballs and basketball hoops. If you feel that, okay? If that's your understanding of him and you're accurate, you check it out with him. It's just an example.

[46:53]

I know it's just an example and I'm talking about that example. Okay. You didn't do anything. No, you didn't do anything. No, I'm just... No, no. I'm just telling you further study for you to do. Try to find out who Michael is, you know, in the process of talking about him. Ask him if he actually does sometimes expect the ball to go into the basket when he plays basketball. And then, if he does, then you... And if you thought he did, or even if you didn't think he did, after he tells you that, you can say, I'm just going to check this with you, Michael. You know, you actually like play basketball with the expectation of getting the ball in the hoop, through the thing. You're actually doing that? He says, yeah. So you understand him. You got that information from him. And then you can try to see how... If you could imagine playing basketball that way, you know, you yourself, like, I'm going to get that ball in that thing. You could try that out. Then, when you can do that,

[47:54]

after your nice relationship with Michael and this understanding you have about basketball, then you could, like, give up. Then you can go back to the way you are now of not really caring about whether he makes a basket or not and whether he makes a basket or not. And then, just in case he hasn't already given that up, you can, like, enter the space where he gives up trying to get something out of basketball. You're already in that place of not trying to get anything out of basketball, right? I don't know how long it would last if I start playing basketball. Right. Right. That's right. So now you can kind of imagine what it would be like to play basketball with no gaining idea. Whereas it's harder for him because he's practiced so long at basketball that he has to be very careful to have no gaining idea. But it is possible that he plays with no gaining idea. He might actually be a bodhisattva. It's possible. He'd be saying no,

[48:54]

but some bodhisattvas don't know they're bodhisattvas. I mean, some of us, we think some people aren't and some of the people we think aren't, they don't think they are either, and they are. Only Buddha knows who the bodhisattvas are. He might be one. Wow. On that note, we will go on to Bernd. Thinking of this other story, we have Bodhidharma where he asked my question. It was kind of like facing somebody, a lay practitioner. And this person said, Who is it facing me? And Bodhidharma said, I don't know. Yeah. So I'm thinking of that. My question which arises vis-a-vis the story is how...

[50:02]

Did everybody hear that story? Did you hear that story, Kathleen? So this is another teaching story. Bodhidharma met this lay practitioner who happened to be the emperor of China. And the emperor said, Who is it that's facing me? And Bodhidharma's teaching to him was... Bernd said, I don't know. But actually in Chinese, the I is sort of understood, but the teacher said, don't know. So this is Bodhidharma teaching the emperor. The question which arises for me tonight is actually how to practice to trust the inconceivable. That seems to come up vis-a-vis the answer. Yeah. You could put it that way. How to trust the inconceivable. Or you could say trust... I think you could say trust the inconceivable or you could say trust giving up conception.

[51:04]

Or what's happening in the conceptual realm, like the concepts of Sarah and Bernd. But when you say trust the inconceivable, the one danger of that is it sounds like there's this thing. Another way to put it would be trust giving up conception. So for me, trust looking at you and giving up the conception of Bernd, giving up the conception of man, giving up this conception of human, giving up the conception of excellent Zen student, just letting go of all that. And then like, whoa, [...] what is it? And that's like trying to learn how to not know. If I want to know who's facing me, how about try not know? So people sometimes ask me, well, how are you? And I say, even the ten thousand sages don't know.

[52:13]

And sometimes they look at me like, I hate you. Does that mean you can imagine that? But it's my way to say, just don't know or don't know. But I don't know how I am, but how about you don't know how I am. And if I tell you how I am, if I say I'm fine, does that mean then you sort of like say, okay, now I know how you are. I don't want to get into that right now, please. May I say something? Oh, sure. I'm very grateful for Bodhidharma and for your teachings tonight. Yet, with due respect...

[53:16]

Uh-oh. What? No, it was just a little show. Was there a but before that due respect? Yet. There was a yet there. Okay, thank you. Yet. I have problems with this kind of active language in which all this is clad, as if we could let go of our conception. I mean, as if I there could do something to let go of our conception. Good. I mean, I would say go right ahead and have a problem with it. Have a big problem with it. Have a big problem with it. If you have a big problem, have a big problem. Is there a big problem? For human beings? Is there a big problem for human beings? Even the 10,000's ages don't know.

[54:23]

How about for Zen masters? What about them? Is it hard for them? Is what hard for them? Confessional, non-confessional. For Zen masters? Yes. Is anybody here a Zen master? Fred. Elena? I have a question. Ask Fred. It's so psychological. I guess as a child, there was a day

[55:26]

when I went to a Zen master and he had a persona in me that I did not like. A certain part. And if a bodhisattva faces you and mirrors that person that you know, that inner side of them, or thoughts, as you were a child, that you are and you want to be very strong feeling. So the bodhisattva, this bodhisattva faces you. But you look in the mirror and you see that. You see a turkey. A natureless turkey. And you're deeply I mean, this is a very strong thing

[56:28]

from way back. How can I come from this intensification of seeing, ah, so here it is. The bodhisattva told me that here I am, a turkey. How can I get from that to I don't know. Do you understand the question? Somebody said go straight for 10,000 miles and then go on for something like that. Being a turkey? Whatever. Any further questions?

[57:34]

Very serious class tonight, huh? Yes. Very serious. Yes. Does non-involvement mean no emotion? Well, one answer would be yes, that if there's an emotion, not getting involved in that emotion. Doesn't mean there's no emotion. But an emotion might arise. You don't get involved in that. No, it might be an it might be an indication of intimacy. So I'm not really you. I'm not really involved in you. You are you and I am me. But I depend on you. And there wouldn't I can't be here without you.

[58:37]

But I'm not really involved with you. I just depend on you. We're intimate. So if you're in pain, that might be if I knew that, that might be painful for me. I might feel pain. I might I might wish that you were free of pain because of our relationship. But it doesn't mean I get involved with you or get involved in the pain. Another example would be I could feel that you could give me a nice gift and I could just receive the gift. And then I could I could lose the gift and just lose the gift. But not get happy because I got it or unhappy because I lost it. Or another example would be as I could feel a positive sensation and just feel a positive sensation but not be happy because I felt a positive sensation.

[59:40]

Or I could feel a negative sensation but not feel unhappy because I felt a negative sensation. Just feel a negative sensation. So I'm I'm not really involved It's possible to not really be involved in for example pain and pleasure. And for me you know I I'm endangering myself by saying this but for me I have most a lot of my fun when people are hurting me.

[60:12]

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