And that's a big point. So, Catherine? Yes? Is it a direct cognition, a conceptual cognition, or is it possible to be both? Is it a direct cognition? Well, it's definitely possible to be both because, you know, yeah, it could be both. You could have like a conceptual ... I guess almost anything that's a direct cognition you could like convert it into a conceptual cognition of it. Because once you have a direct cognition, if you had a direct cognition of the juicy, particular, impermanent self-consciousness, okay, you could then have an idea about that. and you could then cognize that concept about this wonderful direct experience you had.

[01:02]

So it could be both, but we're actually talking about it actually maybe being something in the school that actually you can directly realize. And this might be handy in certain yogic situations, which we may someday have a chance to talk about. I'm calling on people who haven't asked questions yet. Yes? Looking at the jug before it's broken? Looking at a jug before it's broken, then I would say, the Satrantika school would say that looking at a jug before it's broken sounds like conceptual consciousness, because direct cognition of the jug would see it as broken all the time. Well, in direct perception you can directly perceive concepts without any conceptual mediation of the cognition of concept.

[02:18]

That's one role. So concepts can be objects of direct perception. Another role that concepts play in direct perception is that without conceptual training, without using conceptual analysis of various truths and phenomena, of various phenomenal truths, both ultimate and conventional, without using concepts you won't be able to realize direct cognition. I was talking to somebody like It's like, you know, kids can do certain things, you know, they learn things, like they learn how to talk or something. Like this grandson of mine now, for a while he was very early, there was this animal that lives up in our house and when he sees the animal he says, dog, dog, where's the dog, right? Now he goes, dog, dog, dog.

[03:20]

Nobody told him to say, at the end, but now he's got the do, and then he's heard the ji, now he's into the ji, so he goes do-guh. And pretty soon it'll smooth out, you know, but he's making this big effort to get the guh at the end there. Now he's doing that, but he can't tell another kid how to do that. He can't teach another kid. The other kid goes do, and he goes do-guh. Put the ji on the end, he can't do that. and they can fall down and do all kinds of other wonderful gymnastics feats in this very beautiful and relaxed way but they can't teach anybody else to do it and later they won't be able to teach anybody by memory either because they don't have a conceptual version of that to talk to people with. So conceptual consciousness is is the world we're bound in, but it's also the world in which we talk ourselves back into direct perception. So the role of conception is that Buddha comes out in the conceptual world and tells people how to get back to direct perception of ultimate truths.

[04:29]

So direct perception applies to the ultimate truths, but perception of conventional truths, Buddha is also into perceiving conception, Buddha is also working with the conceptual consciousness which is knowing. In this school, Buddha is working with conceptual consciousness which knows conventional truths and is talking to people in conventional truths about conventional and ultimate truths. But the talk about ultimate truth is still not being interpreted in generic versions of the talk about ultimate truth. And the instructions about how to practice yoga in order to realize ultimate truths and is still in terms of generic versions or conceptual versions of the instructions. So we need conceptual consciousness in order to understand how to realize non-conceptual direct awareness. And again, in this school, it's not just to have direct awareness, because we already have that, but direct awareness just happens to be knowing ultimate truths which are liberating.

[05:38]

So when you start watching Ultimate Truth, you can imagine if you could like meet everybody and actually see the show, you know, like see the person like constantly changing right before your eyes, you can see how greed, hate and delusion would not apply, right? To be in that vivid world, you would not like want something or be afraid anymore. And nothing would break for you, because things are breaking all the time. You're in the world of impermanence, you're in the world of flow, you're in the world of peace. because you see the ultimate truth. So this system is pretty good in that way, but there's still a little bit of refinement that could be done in the next two. Yes? what I'm calling flashback or memory of past events, are they any different than what I'm doing to you right now in terms of conceptual consciousness?

[06:51]

And as you just disappear all of a sudden, I clearly haven't changed function at all, I'm just still conceptual consciousness. So is the concept Is an image of a past thing different from an image of a present thing? Well, in conceptual consciousness, If you have these two concepts, one of something that's present and one of something past, then in conceptual consciousness the difference between them is another concept. And presented with that information, with those phenomena of those images, you probably would make another image, and that image would see the difference, but it wouldn't be the real difference.

[07:58]

it would be a conceptual version of the difference. Direct perception could also deal with that, but direct perception would see the impermanence of both of those things, and how they really are. So, in a sense, both are just concepts in the situation, and there is a difference between concepts, which conceptual consciousness can tell the difference between concepts, It's doing it very nicely. As a matter of fact, telling the difference between concepts is its main business, but still it doesn't really see them directly and in all their vividness and impermanence and reality. Pam? It's going to be 12 o'clock, so after Pam maybe we should stop. Yes? Can one observe conceptual consciousness? Well, again, this school would say, you can be aware of consciousness.

[09:04]

But not only aware of consciousness, but aware of consciousness while it's functioning, looking at something other than itself. So consciousness is aware of something, and simultaneously with that, there might be an awareness that the consciousness is knowing some object. In this case, the consciousness is knowing a concept. But you see, that's one of the nice things, one reason why someone might like to have this self-consciousness, because this self-consciousness might itself not be another conceptual consciousness, but just an awareness of the concept of the consciousness which is knowing objects. But there could also be awareness of the consciousness which is directly knowing things, too. So this school says, yes, you can have that. The other school says, no, you can't. No, you don't. Pardon? Is the self-awareness conceptual or perceptual? I'm not sure. Sorry.

[10:04]

I can find out someday. Maybe even today. I don't guarantee it, though. So is it okay if we stop? Although I see there's lots of interest. Is it okay to stop? Because it's twelve o'clock. All right? Hmm? Tomorrow what? You have a tomorrow? Where is it?

[10:25]

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