In the first 500 years of the Buddhist tradition, monk scholars came up with an overview of the path to personal liberation, and they envisioned the path as having five stages or being five paths. And these paths were called in Sanskrit, Sambara Marga, which means the path of equipment or path of preparation, Prayoga Marga, the path of concerted effort, Darshana Marga, the path of vision, Bhavana Marga, the path of meditation or the path

[01:08]

of becoming what was seen, and the path of vision, and finally the path, the Ashaiksha Marga, the path beyond training. And later, as the Mahayana developed, monk scholars and lay scholars also came up with the same five paths which they applied to the Bodhisattva path, the path to universal liberation. And I feel that we are now, in a sense, in terms of these wisdom teachings, we are in what we might call the path of equipment or the path of preparation. We're building a foundation for the wisdom practice, and particularly the wisdom practice of studying these teachings of the nature of phenomena in Mahayana tradition. As part of that, I'd like to give you some more vocabulary to help you work with these

[02:22]

three natures. And first, just to tell you these three natures in Sanskrit. The first one is called Parikalpita, and so it can be translated as the imputational character or the imputational nature. It can be translated as conceptual clinging or mere conceptual grasping or the characteristic pattern of clinging to what is entirely imagined. Or simply the imagined. The second nature in Sanskrit, or by the way, the word Parikalpita,

[03:29]

I think is the past participle of Parikalpa, and Parikalpa means imagination. So the past participle of that Parikalpita has also the connotation of clinging to what is imagined. The second character in Sanskrit is Paratantra, which literally means...para means other, and tantra in this case means power, so it means other-powered, powered by other, by another, or other-dependent, and translated as other-dependent, other-powered, dependent origination, the pattern of other-dependency. The third character in Sanskrit is Parinispanna,

[04:32]

it can be translated as the thoroughly established character, or the perfected character of reality, or the pattern of full perfection, or the consummated character, or consummated nature. During our last practice period, one of the people in the practice period came up with calling the first character maybe the dream, the second character the mystery, and the third character I think the reality. But today I would suggest, that's pretty good, but I would say the dream, the mystery, and the absence of dreaming in the mystery. That's

[05:33]

the three characters. Everything in our life really is an other-dependent phenomenon, is a dependent co-arising, is something which dependently arises for us. And as you just read, I think it said… let's see… Something like, because of tendencies towards conventional designations,

[07:01]

remember that part? Huh? On the top of the second page? Yeah, good. So, Gunakara, for example, you should see that in the same way that a very clear crystal comes in contact with a color, the other dependent character comes in contact with a predisposition for conventional designations that are the imputational character. So, part of what's going on here is that because we are predisposed to making conventional designations about what's happening in our life, we impute or project an image or an imagined thing upon our life so that

[08:09]

we can talk about it. So we falsely imagine some phenomena, some event, something happens for us, and then because of a predisposition towards making conventional designations about what happens to us, we project a false imagination upon the event, and then we attach to it. And then the reality or the way the thing exists becomes veiled or negated by this projection. So, in that way, the imagination itself is false but useful. It's false particularly

[09:23]

because it is an imagination, how does it say at the beginning? It says, it's something that's imputed to what's happening, and it's imputed to what's happening because of predispositions, and in particular, it's imputed to what's happening because of predispositions to make conventional designations. So, it is imputed to phenomena as a name or a symbol, but it isn't the name or the symbol that's the imputational, it's something that's imputed as a name or a symbol to events, so in order to make conventional designations. And it's imputed to events as words and symbols in terms of essences and attributes, and those essences and attributes

[10:27]

are purely imagined, they're not actually in the phenomena. And by projecting these onto the things and then attaching to them, the things become obscured. Maybe like almost always, living beings are projecting this false imagination onto the other dependent character, projecting the false imagination onto our dependently co-arising life. Now, this event that's happening right now and this event that's happening right now, this dependent co-arising that's happening right now, in each moment, what's happening

[11:33]

right now, you could say is originally free from these projections which make it possible for us to talk about the thing. You can say it's originally free, but actually you can say really it's always free. And yet, once we project onto it, it doesn't seem to be free of these projections anymore. It seems to be defiled by them. So in a sense, the actual world of dependent co-arising gets apparently changed, covered up, and defiled by these imaginations. Defiled, believed in, and attached to. And because of this covering, attaching, covering, believing, and attaching, the suffering of the world arises. The way things actually are, the way things actually are happening, is actually beyond

[12:59]

these projections. The projections don't actually reach the thing, but by interposing the projection, the world seems defiled. So we're suffering sort of at a distance from the world because of our availing of it and relating to it in a dream. Someone said to me in the koan class, we're studying a case which takes place in a dream. We're studying a case of a Zen Master's dream. And after class someone said, aren't you worried about people misunderstanding this teaching? And I said, I don't actually, I'm not into worry. I don't want people to misunderstand and they might misunderstand. So one of the ways that people might misunderstand is to say, well, life's a dream so it doesn't matter, so it doesn't matter what you do, right? Is that one possible way that people get in trouble

[14:02]

when they hear that we're living in a dream? That teaching might then lead someone to say, well, then it's just a dream that I'm punching you in the nose, or just a dream that we're going to war, so who cares? But another way to see the dream is, if you're dreaming, you might actually drive off the road because you're dreaming that there's a road where there isn't a road, or you're dreaming that there's a door where there's a wall, or you're dreaming that someone wants you to touch them when they don't. So actually, recognizing the dream-like projection on everything, one would then become suspicious of one's beliefs, and one might find a more appropriate way to relate to what one sees.

[15:06]

The world of dependent co-arising, or the dependently co-arising world, or the other dependent character phenomena, when there's understanding of there being no projections on it, could be said to be nirvana, in the sense that the events now are purified of the projections, which means they're purified of the beliefs which lead

[16:24]

to attachment. So it's the world just as it always has been, but with no attachment, so no suffering. Same world as it's always been, just no suffering, just liberation. So it's the world of liberation. It's better to do it like this. How does that work? How is that? Okay for you? Guess what? It's painful for me. Painful, but I'm not suffering, I'm having a good time, but it's painful. I'm not going to go to sleep during this talk.

[17:40]

You think this is funny, huh? Well, I think that's enough for tonight. There's one point that's really subtle, and that is, some very, very, I would say, brilliant Buddhist scholars have the opinion that the world of dependent co-arising, or the world of how things are actually happening, when it's purified of the projection of

[18:49]

false imaginations and the attachment and so on, when things are purified of that, I agree that that's nirvana, but they sometimes think that that is the thoroughly established character. And I'm not going to be absolute about this, but I'm more of the opinion, from reading the sutra, that the thoroughly established character phenomena is not that they're purified. The thoroughly established character is the absence, it's not the phenomena of being free, it's not the phenomena in the absence of the projection, it is the freedom or the absence or the emptiness of the projection. So the thoroughly established character or

[19:54]

the perfected character of every phenomena, the thoroughly established character of this world, is that which, when you look at it and meditate on it, looking at that will purify your vision of seeing the projections on the world. When you look at the thoroughly established character, you will see that the world has never been touched by the dream. So you look at the absence of the dream and then see that the world is free of the dream. By looking at the absence you see the world of nirvana. By looking at the presence of the imputation, by looking at the presence of conceptual clinging and taking conceptual clinging as real and attaching to it, you're looking at the world of samsara, you're looking at the world of suffering. So when we look at what's happening but take it for what we imagine it to be,

[21:01]

we have affliction. When we look at what's happening and as we look at what's happening we actually see the absence of our fantasies, then we get to see freedom, a world of freedom. So the thoroughly established is not really the purified other dependent character. It is not the dependently co-arisen world or dependently co-arisen events. In the absence of conceptual clinging, in the absence of being defiled and contaminated by false imagination, rather it is the thing we look at to realize the world, the uncontaminated world. And the

[22:18]

Buddha teaches that all things that are contaminated by false imaginations are suffering. So as I mentioned to the practice period the other night, in the beginning of the book A Road Less Traveled, as that was called, it says, I think the first thing it says is life is difficult and there's an asterisk and down at the bottom it says that this is a great truth. As a matter of fact, the Buddha taught the Four Noble Truths and the first truth is that life is suffering. But really what he said was contaminated life is suffering. Life contaminated by false imaginations is suffering. But life in the absence of contamination is the cessation of suffering. But as you see from reading this chapter, in order to

[23:23]

see the absence of the contaminating false imaginations you have to understand the false imaginations, because they're operating all the time already, so you have to notice what you're already up to, to notice that what you're already up to is not really registering on what's happening, even though it's not. You think it is. And it's so natural for you to think it is that you don't even notice what you're thinking it is. So this is like a hard course of study. Somebody brought me an example the other morning. Some of you may not know that in the morning when we first start sitting, and some of you, most of you do know, that in the morning when we first start sitting, usually one of the people

[24:28]

in the community, on behalf of the community, does a little circumambulation of the temple. So he or she goes and offers incense around the temple for the community. Part of the preparing a space to meditate in is to have a kind of quiet space, a clean space, a place that you kind of like make offerings to the Buddhas and Bodhisattvas to help us have a nice place to meditate. So rather than have everybody, like we have 50 people here or something, rather than have everybody offer incense before we meditate to reduce the air pollution, we just have one person offer. So there's one stick offered in each room rather than 50. And one person bows rather than 50. So anyway, we do that. So after

[25:35]

the person comes in here and offers incense and does bows, then that person walks around the hall and does what we call kentan. Walking around the hall, literally, circumambulation literally in Japanese is pronounced jundo. Just walking around the hall is called jundo. And we sometimes do jundos, which means we walk around the hall. But the person who's opening the hall does what's called a kentan. They're walking around the room, but they're also doing kentan, which means they're looking at the tan, which means they're looking at the people. So one person comes in here and looks at the people, looks at each person. Oops, they're not here. Oops, they're asleep. Oh, anyway, somebody's like looking at you. Every breath you take, we'll be watching you. That person's walking around you, and sometimes this person is your boss, right? This is your guru, coming to see you. Anyway,

[26:37]

it's dark, so they can't see too much, but anyway, they have these new glasses that you can wear, so you can see in the dark very deeply into the mind of the students. So this is called kentan. So someone told me that as I was doing the kentan, she was aware of me coming in the room. Somehow she was aware of this phenomena of this person, and then there was the phenomena of the person coming into the room, and then there was the phenomena of the person doing the bows, and then the phenomena of the person walking around the room. And then where the person was in the room, the person felt different, in different positions. So as the person approaches, the person felt different. So as someone comes

[27:39]

closer to you, they feel different. They're a different person, because they're not the person they were when they were 80 feet away. Now they're the person that's 2 feet away and 1 foot away, and now they're the person right up close to you. So this person was feeling that phenomena, and feeling the approach of this person who was me, and feeling sort of an escalation of the experience was getting more intense as I came closer. But she was also aware that the experience was really having a lot to do with what she was thinking about me, that it wasn't just that I was getting bigger as I was approaching, but that her thinking was evolving, that really she was really aware of her thinking, and then when I got to her it was like the maximum fantasy was going on, and then as I moved away things calmed down again as I got farther away, even though I was still in the room. So she was

[28:41]

asking me, well how do you meditate on the other dependent, because it's like it's covered over by all this imagination, all this projection of this person, right? How can you see the other dependent? And what it says here, what you just recited there, is by adhering to the actual phenomena of this person, this constantly arising and ceasing phenomena of this person, by adhering to that person, by imagining that thing, by having an imagination of that thing, and project and taking that imagination to be that thing, that's how you know the other dependent. So there is actually something there arising and ceasing. How do you know it? By taking it for your imagination of it. And then you

[29:43]

can talk about it. So how do you meditate on the other dependent? When basically when you know the other dependent, what you're really knowing is you're taking it for the imagined. It's kind of how do you see under the imagination in a way? And if you see under the imagination, then this thing would be purified of those things you project so that you could talk about it. So if you could see under it, you wouldn't be able to talk about what you saw. And why wouldn't you be able to talk about it? Because you would be projecting nothing onto it, no essence or substance by which you could like get a hold of it. So when this thing is coming to you, this person or any experience, how

[30:46]

do you look at the quality of this thing, the character of this thing, which is that it depends on other things? How do you look at the way the thing is powered by something other than itself? How do you meditate on that? Well, one way is you just listen to the teaching whenever anything happens. If you can see it and talk about it, then you hear the teaching which says, if you can see it and talk about it, then you have just taken what is happening to be your imagination of it. So part of the teacher is telling you, you are looking at a defiled version, a contaminated version of whatever this thing is. Probably almost all the time you're looking at a contaminated version, and then there will

[31:49]

be suffering arising from that. So that's part of what you're aware of. But that's actually more meditating on how you know the other dependent. Knowing the other dependent is a little bit different than meditating on the other dependent, because knowing the other dependent means actually you're taking the other dependent to be something it's not. So you're not really meditating on the other dependent, but that's what you're seeing, is a misconstruing, a misperception, a mistake. You're seeing a mistake and you think it's real, and that's why you're suffering. Still we haven't gotten to meditating on the other dependent, but I just mentioned some teachings which come up to my mind as I'm talking to you about how to meditate on the other dependent. Now, what is the teaching about the other dependent? The teaching of the other dependent is that it's like a very clear crystal. So when somebody comes to you, can you see the very clear crystal? In other words, a crystal that you cannot, you can't see because it's

[32:52]

covered, and a crystal is a mystery. What is it? It's a mystery that actually and always is beyond your dreaming. So when somebody comes to you, you're seeing your projections, what's there that's beyond your projection? Can you see it? No. Can you look at it? Can you see it? When somebody comes, you hear the teaching, this thing that's coming, the actual thing, not your imagination, but the actual event, is how it's dependent on other things, and that it is dependent on other things, and how it's dependent on other things is the way it really is. And each thing is dependent on other things differently. So you're listening to the teaching about this thing, but you can't see it, probably.

[33:59]

But you still listen to the teaching, and the teaching changes the way you look at the thing. Maybe you're already changing by hearing this. So you're not looking at the image, you're listening to the teaching. And as you listen to the teaching, then you also think about the teaching as it applies to things, you also understand that this thing which you had images about, like for example, images that it's substantial and permanent, you still see it that way, but you're hearing the teaching that it's other-dependent, so you start to more and more understand, although you can't see this yet, that this thing is really unreliable, and not worthy of confidence, and then this is what it's

[35:12]

like to meditate on the other dependent. And there's also another dependent phenomenon of being aware of, having an aware of, there's the other dependent phenomenon of imagining, that's another thing you can be aware of, but there too you have images of how you're imagining, but there also really is an imagining going on. Any hands coming up in the air? Yes? See, I can say hands coming up in the air because I imagine something so that I can make the conventional designation hands. Yes? I'm wondering if there are different levels of coming out of your imagination and seeing

[36:13]

something that could be... Did you say different levels of coming out of your imagination? What do you mean by coming out of your imagination? For example, you're just thinking, and you might say facing out, and then you suddenly wake up, oh, I'm here, and then everything looks different than it did before, more real, so to speak, and I suppose you could say more poetic, and you have a sense of the whole environment and relationship between things, and things are clearer, but still, in that case, you haven't really felt such as an object, have you? Doesn't sound like it. As a matter of fact, well, it sounds like you're being mindful of your fantasies, in the case you just gave, where before that you weren't even noticing how your fantasy process was going. Right, and what are we waking up to again?

[37:15]

You're waking up to... what you just said sounds to me like you're becoming aware of strongly adhering to what's happening as your fantasies about what's happening. That's what you became aware of. You weren't aware of that teaching, but in fact you were now aware of your fantasies, and before you were fantasizing too, but you didn't even notice what you were fantasizing. Right, but that moment when you wake up, you say, oh, I've been spacing out, I've just been thinking here. Okay, so you said, I've been spacing out, okay, what's actually been going on is beyond the imputation to what was actually happening, and what is actually happening, but what you say was happening is beyond the imputation that your mind makes on what was happening such that you could make the conventional designation, I was spaced out.

[38:20]

So that's the level that's not being addressed, when you just wake up, oh... You said wake up, but again, you said wake up, but what you did is you woke up to... What? You woke up to, not what was happening, you woke up to the fantasy. But you're saying that what you didn't wake up to was the whole process of... The real base level process of imputation, which is harder to understand, harder to see. In the story you told, I didn't hear an explication of understanding, a deep understanding of the process of imputation, I didn't hear that, but I heard a waking up to the way... I thought that was a good example of demonstrating the way that you actually thought that you woke up to what was happening, that's what I thought you were saying. I was imputing that I was imputing?

[39:27]

No, you weren't imputing, you were imputing that you saw reality. You said I woke up to and I thought you were describing what you thought was true, or more true than usual, but actually, when you woke up and you saw what you saw is what you think was true, what you thought was true, what you were imagining, so you could talk to me about it. And what you really imagined, you know, the words spaced out and so on, those are just words, but you imagined there was something there and you put a little essence into it, such that you could use the word spaced out onto that thing. But the thing actually has nothing there to settle the word spaced out onto. But once you put that thing in there on what was happening, or what is happening, then you can land the word spaced out onto it and believe that that's what you saw and that was more real than when you weren't even noticing what was happening.

[40:31]

So we can fantasize without noticing that we're fantasizing and then we can wake up to, oh, this is what's happening. But when we wake up to this is what's happening, at that very moment that we say this is what's happening, we have just contaminated what's happening. In order to say this is what's happening, in order to say this is the color, we have to contaminate the color. There is a color there, and the word color is fine for it, but in order to get the word color onto the color, we have to defile the color by projecting a landing pad of essences and attributes. We need the essence to have something to actually be there, that is there, and then we have attributes to get the right word, line the word up with the thing. That's what we think, and this is something that has developed in our group here through

[41:37]

eons of talking. So is there some moment, some split second before the invitation came back again that maybe there was a stopping wave? I didn't hear about it, about any dropping away. Of course, what I was saying was dropping away, but not what you were saying. So, I was just experiencing a different level of invitation. No, you're not experiencing a different level of invitation, you're experiencing, what I heard you say was experiencing some awareness of what was happening, and what I heard you say was happening was you were telling me about the way the world looks when it's contaminated. Namely, I was spaced out, or I wasn't, or I woke up. This kind of thing that I hear you describing is you're describing the world of dependent

[42:41]

co-arising when it's been contaminated so that we can talk about it. And in order for me to talk to you about what I heard you say, I had to also project onto what I saw in what you said in order to talk to you about it. But the way you actually were is beyond my descriptions of how you were. But if I believe what I had to do in order to talk to you about what I saw there, then I suffer. Then I'm anxious that this person covered over by the imputational, that this person is really that way, then I suffer. So how can I point out to this person this function I see without getting caught by it

[43:48]

myself while I'm talking to her? Yes? Is thinking in language imputational? No. No. But thinking about something so that you can talk about it requires the imputational. So for example, just like sitting in meditation and thinking blue. I thought blue is a word, but you're not saying anything blue. Now if you think, I'm sitting here thinking blue, then you're like putting that imagination of what you're doing there onto what's happening. And that's in order to say, I'm thinking the thought blue, in order to do that, you'd have to impute something to who you are, that person who's sitting there going blue, blue, blue.

[44:54]

In order to talk about yourself, you'd have to get back into it. But just blue, it's just a dependent co-arising. A lot of things that happen in this world, as you may have noticed, and every single one of them is a dependent co-arising. And every single one of them is actually untouched by anybody's fantasies or anybody's dream about what they are. That's actually the way they are. That's their thoroughly established character, is that there's an absence of the fantasy of the imagined in them. But, because of our predisposition to conventionality, being social animals of the human variety, we project something onto what's happening, not just so we can say blue, but so we can

[46:01]

say blue about something. It isn't just we'll walk around and go, blue, green, red. It's a blue, that's blue, and that's green. And people say, it's not blah blah blah blah. We work it out, you know. But the thing is, it's blue about something. That's where the imputation starts working. That's where you make your money. You don't make any money just walking around saying, blue, blue, blue. Make sense? A little bit? No, no, not you, him. Yes? Excuse me.

[47:04]

Can I say something before you go on? You said you had a question about the relationship between wisdom teachings and the chain of dependent co-arising? Oh, okay. So you have a question about the wisdom teaching of dependent co-arising and what? Same. It said it. The other dependent character, the other dependent character phenomena is simply the dependent co-arising of phenomena. And then it said, and what is that? It said, when this arises, in dependence on this, this arises. In dependence on this, that's the basic principle. And then it says, like in depending on ignorance, karmic formations. So it just said it. That's exactly what the other dependent character is. It's how everything arises in dependence and it's also in particular, they gave an example there of how depending on ignorance, karmic formations, and depending on ignorance, suffering.

[48:13]

That's also, suffering is a dependent co-arising phenomena too. So the story, the way suffering arises is another teaching of dependent co-arising. Basically the same thing. So what question did you have? Yes? Yes? Sometimes that would be and sometimes it would not be. It would be at the wrong time. So this sutra is saying that what you first started out saying, positioning yourself at that place, okay?

[49:25]

This sutra would say, please notice that you are now involved in the imputational. That you're taking the imputational as though you're going to actually be at that stage by talking about it that way. That's what this sutra would say. However, this sutra could also say, maybe that would be a good imputational for you to work with for a while. There is no stage there, is what this sutra is saying. There's no stage of being at the stage of, what do you call it? Did you say craving? Contact, yes. There is no stage like that. Excuse me, it doesn't say there is no stage, I take it back. There is a stage like that, but for you to approach that stage by the way you can talk about that stage, is that you're actually getting caught and distracted from that stage, and you're defiling that stage by that approach. That's what the sutra is saying. The sutra is saying, when you're ready you can study, not so much that stage, but you can study how you treat that stage with your imagination

[50:35]

in such a way that you defile that stage and cause yourself suffering at that stage. And any stage would be equally good to defile in that way, and any stage would be equally good for you to catch yourself at defiling. But before you can study that phase, he would say, rather than put yourself at these different phases, study dependent co-arising and realize from the beginning that if you try to study dependent co-arising in any way that you can talk about it, you're really not studying dependent co-arising, you're studying the imputational. But you can't study the imputational until you're more grounded in the other dependent meditation. Which means you learn how to meditate on what you can't see. You can't see the other dependent because you're constantly dreaming about the other dependent. You have to start by confessing that you're constantly dreaming about the other dependent as being your dream. You have to learn how to meditate on the other dependent

[51:40]

before you start trying to actually study your dream of the other dependent or phases of the other dependent. That's what this sutra is saying. This sutra is teaching you how to meditate on the teaching of dependent co-arising in such a way that you don't confuse what you're thinking is happening with what's happening. In other words, you have to learn how to identify that you're confusing what's happening with what you're thinking or dreaming is happening. That's how you realize what's happening. But you have to be grounded not in your thinking, first of all, but in listening to the teaching about how what's happening is happening which you cannot see. You cannot see how things are other dependent. You can dream about how things are other dependent, though.

[52:47]

But you can hear the teaching about how things are other dependent even though you can't see it. And hearing that teaching, your relationship with what's happening and your relationship with your dreams about what's happening start to change. And as that becomes more and more developed, you become more and more ready to actually turn around and study the dreams you have of, for example, some stage in the process of dependent co-arising of suffering. And then it might be good sometimes to study a particular stage, but it might not be good to study that stage because you might not be ready to study that stage without getting more and more confused. In other words, you might study the stage and think, Oh, now I'm studying that stage, rather than study that stage and say, Now I'm dreaming about studying that stage. But if you already know that basically the only way at this point that you can study those stages would be to study your dreams of the stage,

[53:48]

then you probably say, Am I ready to study my dreams of the stages? And I would say, you know, what do you call it? Convince me that you're ready. Show me how you're grounded in meditation on the other dependent rather than grounded in your dreams of the other dependent. Show me your virtue. Yeah. Yes. Did you say sometimes being aware that this is dreaming up the stage? Uh-huh. I didn't understand that last little clause.

[55:05]

Isn't it at that point what? Well, yes. Yeah, as you are all the time. Yeah, you always are. Isn't it an advantage point? No, because every point is an advantage point. You agree? Pardon? You just understood. Yeah, there you go. Learn something. Amazing, huh? Yeah, they're all, this is like, all equally good. Yes. Did you describe meditation on the other dependent as if you were just listening to meditation?

[56:06]

Yeah, basically. At the beginning. What else? You mean beyond that, what else? Yeah. Well, after you, after you, like, are based, well grounded in that teaching, then you can turn around and start looking at the imputational. Like, for example, you can look at your dream about what stage you're at. Well, probably means, in your case, that I tell you you are. And then I watch what you do when I tell you. And see if you, like, you know, go for the imputational version you have of what I said. Did you go for it? You can't really know you're meditating on the other dependent?

[57:13]

Well, it doesn't matter whether you know or not that you are. What matters is that you are and that you're being transformed by the meditation. And as you're transformed by the meditation, you will start to be able to make some inroads into being aware of your dreams and start understanding your dreams as dreams. The more you practice meditation on the other dependent, the more you realize the dream-like quality of your confusion of the imputations with the other dependent. You still can't see the other dependent, but you can start to become more aware of your dreams as a consequence of meditating properly on the other dependent. So you can know the other dependent by misconstruing it as your dreams, right? And you start to be aware

[58:17]

that that's how you know the other dependent and also you become more and more aware. You can become aware of your dreams because they're like big chunky images. Like, yeah, this is happening. Wow, this is like really happening. Now you know you're dreaming. But if you don't practice virtue enough, you don't know it's a dream, you think it's true and you're in trouble and so am I if I'm anywhere near you. But in fact, whether you know it or not, when you start to practice meditation on the other dependent, you will start to wake up more and more to how deluded you are. Now you can infer then accurately that the more you realize how deluded you are and how you're dreaming and how you muck up everything with your stuff, you can deduce, you can infer, hey, maybe I'm practicing, maybe I'm in the meditation of the other dependent because I'm starting to see what you can see when you meditate on the other dependent.

[59:19]

You don't see the other dependent, you just see more and more how deluded you are. And then, now you're cooking, now you can start to look at your delusions. You can become really good at them and as you start to become good at them, you get to see that they're not really making it to anything that's happening. They're just like totally whatever you want to say politely. That will be part of what you will come to understand. You can never see the other dependent like, you know, in a sense of knowing it as an object, but you can understand it because that's what it says. When you know the other dependent as it really is, you know the afflicted quality, you know how things are afflicted. You understand then. See, as you meditate on the other dependent, you see what a mess you're making

[60:21]

and you see what a mess I'm making. You see, you understand the afflicted quality. You see, oh yeah, wow, not I, but this is really causing problems here. This is really causing pain. And you can see that because you're well grounded in the other dependent meditation. And then, as you get more and more aware of that, you start to, like, discover that there's something that, you know, actually there's not really a sticking to the, there's not this superimposition isn't really being believed anymore. This overlay, this projection is like, it's like, it's abandoned. And then when you abandon that, you realize the purified nature and so on. Cool, huh? Well, let's see, it's getting a little on the late side. Is there any really good questions? Ah, there's a good one.

[61:23]

Oh, you have a good one, too. Wow. What's your delusion? Is working with the know a way to work with the other dependent? Working with the know is not, it's not as I see it. It is not as I've said it. It's not as I've heard it. Is this a way of working with the other dependent or is it something else? I'll think about that. Any other excellent questions? That was very good, thank you. Yes? Back to blue? Yes? Okay, just a second now, okay? Boom, I've got a picture of blue. I'm not imputing anything. It's just an image. It's not the imputational. Unless I say that is blue that I'm seeing there. No, just,

[62:24]

just the blue. But the thing is usually as soon as you see blue you say that is blue. Before you have a chance, you couldn't get there. But anyway, but if you actually just saw blue but you didn't say it is blue, then there would be no imputation. Yeah, pretty rare. Pretty rare. Big question is can a Buddha talk without, you know, getting kind of confused. I'm not so sure it's possible, but anyway it might be. But basically whenever you're doing that, it's going, so let's get used to admitting that we're pretty much non-stop imputing, believing, and attaching, and mucking it up. That's just hurtling. And then, just as an idea, accept that. And then, meditate on the other dependent. As you meditate on the other dependent,

[63:26]

you'll start to see that that's so. You'll catch yourself in the act of screwing up a perfectly good life. And I say catch yourself. It's not really you that's doing it. It's just the predisposition of the mind to lay out these projections so we can talk to each other and, you know, make a buck or make a duck. So, you start catching yourself with that more and more. And the more you meditate on the other dependent, the more you meditate on the other dependent, the more you're not, you know, what do you say, the more you meditate on the other dependent, the more you realize you have nothing better to do than to practice meditation. And if you're just practicing meditation rather like getting somewhere, then you can like look at what a jerk you are and how confused you are and how deluded you are. No problem, because, you know, why not? Why not? Why not study what's happening? Why not study these teachings? But if you're not meditating

[64:27]

on the other dependent, you're sort of like, moreover to like, what do my delusions say I should be doing? Like Berndt's saying, I should probably be at this stage right here because then I'll really make progress. Meditating on the other dependent, you're like, make progress? Who said that? Where'd that come from? Suspicion. This is like really a good practice over here. Meditating on the other dependent is when you think it's good to meditate on the other dependent, you realize, oh, there's the imputation again. I'm not meditating on the other dependent. I'm meditating on a good way to meditate on the other dependent. This is the fantasy again. Meditating on the other dependent, you don't know what you're doing. You don't know what you're doing and you don't know what you're looking at. Now, what you are looking at is a fantasy, but you don't know what you're actually looking at, and you kind of recognize that, and recognizing that, you're meditating

[65:28]

on the other dependent, sort of. Okay? All right? Is there an antithesis in our antidote to false imaginations? Is that what you said? You mentioned false imaginations. Yes. And you said, is there a... False. Yes. False, yeah. Are there true imaginations? Not that I know of. Well, basically, yes. I mean, they're false in that they would apply to anything. I mean, images are not false, it's just false to apply them to anything. The false part is to think that an image, or an idea, or a concept,

[66:29]

like actually belonged on something. That's the false part. The false imagination, like blue is not false, but to think, to project the blue onto something, that's the false part. And what's true with the antidote to false imagination is to actually understand that these imaginations aren't actually ever making it, that really the way things are is actually completely free of this, and there is an absence of these things. That balances, that antidotes it. But that takes quite a bit of work to see that because you have to really become familiar with false imagination. But again, just to sort of dive into false imagination land is pretty hard unless you're already grounded in the other dependent, because otherwise, as you dive into studying your false imagination, you might think that you're actually seeing your false imagination correctly, which of course you can't do. But as you're grounded in the other dependent, the virtue you develop,

[67:38]

you have the ability somehow to start to come to see the falseness of your imagination, and then to be able to see that actually there's some place where you can't find it and you're sure you can't find it, and then things start getting cleared up. Then you actually find and realize that the world is actually free of these overlays. You start to actually see the way the world is without the obscuring and contaminating confusion of our imagination with what's happening. You see the peaceful world of liberation through seeing the absence of this contamination. I don't know if I said, what did you say? That that would be a true imagination?

[69:03]

I can imagine how you thought I said that. But I'm not saying that space is real. I'm not saying space is real. I would say space exists and that it's permanent, but it's a phenomena. But using imagination to apprehend space seems to me would be again to obscure the dependent co-arising of that phenomena. But space is an imaginary thing, but we don't project space onto blue. That's not the reason why we're suffering, projecting the concept of space onto blue. But to project the image of space onto space so we can talk about space, that's the same process.

[70:19]

But the concept of space, that's fine. There is such a thing as space. We have a concept for it, but to think that the thing we put on the phenomena of space in order to get a hold of it, that that was a space, that would be a mistake. But the projection that we have the problem about is the projection of essences onto all phenomena so that we can make conventional designations. That's the one that's causing us suffering. Projecting of essences and then believing them and attaching to them. But again, I'm not strongly encouraging you to start looking at this stuff yet. I'm more encouraging you, I'm talking about this to get you ready for the teaching, but I'm actually encouraging you to meditate on the teaching of dependent co-arising of phenomena, other dependent character, I'm encouraging you to get better at that now,

[71:22]

before you actually intensively start looking at the imputational, try to find that and examine that. We will get to that later, and we actually already are getting to it. I'll keep talking about it, but I'm not actually suggesting you meditate on it. I'm suggesting you learn about it at this phase by talking to me about it, and learn more and more before you start pondering it. I don't think we're generally speaking as a group ready for that. But prove me wrong if you want. I'm not sure, some of you may be further along in this meditation than I know. Is that enough for tonight? How's it going in this wisdom teaching thing? Is it going really well according to your imagination? What's your imagination of this process?

[72:27]

It's false, he says. See, I don't know how it's going. I don't know how it's going. What? It seems that there's something to get, yeah. I know what you mean. It's kind of frightening. What? It seems like a koan. Yeah. Yes. I don't know. You have to know what you're doing. It's more simple to me than you think to me. I'm trying to apply the same core ideas to what I've heard in the media. You know, I've been doing it. So, the beauty, the beauty is the other dependent, right?

[73:36]

The thought. Pardon? Same with the thought. Yes, did you say, same with the thought? Yes. Yeah, right. Same with the thinking. Yes, uh-huh. So, I'm trying to do that, first of all. Good. Well, I mean, anyway, I want to say that you asked how it's going. Yeah, I did ask how it's going, and you said, and somehow, even though we don't know what's going on, sometimes we start feeling happy, even though that's not really what's going on, that we're happy, we still do kind of feel happy, you know, and we can talk about it. Now, that's not really what's happening, but we are talking about being happy and kind of like, okay. And we feel kind of enthusiastic and loving of people and stuff like that. That's not really what's happening, but we like it.

[74:39]

You know, we want to study more. We want to learn more. We want to pay more attention. We want to practice mindfulness. We want to be generous. We want to practice the precepts. All this stuff happens, you know, and we feel kind of less afraid and more relaxed and less attached. That's not really what's going on, but somehow this is what's dependently co-arising, we're having these thoughts. And this is like getting ready for the next … start looking how deluded we are when we're thinking that way. But if you're really feeling miserable, you're not in a very good position to look at the delusion that you're having about that you're miserable. So thinking that you're happy, feeling happy, thinking that things are going well, feeling enthusiastic, thinking that Dharma study is great, you know, all that stuff, that's not really what's happening. But those conditions are the ones that make you more ready to consider that this is all just a dream

[75:47]

and you're totally deluded. Because you're happy. When you're happy, you're kind of like, okay, I'm willing to consider that I'm totally deluded. I mean, I'm happy enough to consider that. I mean, as a matter of fact, I'm considering and it's not depressing me. As a matter of fact, I even feel better now. Just like it says I would in the scriptures. And I can see I have a lot more work to do and I feel good about that. And that's not what's happening either, but that's again, I'm sort of understanding that what I think is happening is not so. I'm starting to not believe quite so much in what I think is happening. Wow, and that's not happening either, but somehow I'm thinking that and it feels really good to think that and I'm dreaming that and then that might be a dream too and that's good too, you know. So you start to get more, you start to manifest less and less attachment, even though that's not really what's happening.

[76:49]

Somehow, you know, and then you say, so maybe I should get somebody to test me or something. This could be a whole dream that I'm not attached. So you go and see somebody and they catch you and say, oh wow, it was a dream, I am attached. And that's cool too, that I was totally dreaming that I was unattached. I was even more attached than usual, but I'm still feeling good. This is studying the imputational. And you feel good about it, because you have enough grounding in the other dependent meditation. And that's how you are. You seem to be almost ready to deal with this, more and more because you're meditating in the other dependent, you're more and more ready to face how deluded human beings are, aren't you? And some of you are not, because you're not grounded enough in the other dependent. So you're still resisting this obnoxious teaching because you kind of want to think, well actually I do know what's going on. Actually, I mean, I do. And I'm right, it's not that I'm deluded. He's deluded, I'm not. Some of these other people are, but I'm not.

[77:54]

I'm actually not. And that's what we think, and that's our delusion. And if you're depressed, you don't want to like, I'm depressed. I'm not going to be depressed and deluded. But if you're happy, because you're practicing meditation in the other dependent, then you can tolerate a little or quite a bit of confession of that you are one deluded being. And you actually do think that what you think is happening is what's happening. And you can identify that you feel that way, that you feel, although it's not really happening that you feel that way. You don't really believe that what you think is happening is happening. That's not really what's happening. You do think that, but that's not really happening. But you do think that, and also because you think that way, you notice you also think you're miserable. And that's not really happening to you, you're not really miserable,

[78:55]

but you think you're miserable, and you think you're depressed, and you think you're angry, and you think you're disgusted and resistant. You think that because you think you're right. So those go together. And if you don't think you're right, you don't feel depressed. You say, well, I don't think I'm right, and I'm depressed. Get it? Get it? In other words, I'm right. I don't think I'm right, and I'm depressed, and that's right. I mean, that's actually so. You're wrong, and I'm right. What you said is not true, and what I think is true is true. Right? Have you noticed that going on anywhere? Locally? You check it out. You see if the sutras are wrong. That's where people get upset. In apprehending what they think is going on as actually what's happening, they believe it and grasp it. This is a story about sentient beings.

[79:58]

Check it out, but actually don't check it out. Work on the other dependent more, until you're like so full of virtue that you can handle this more obnoxious study. I'm giving you little tidbits now and then, okay? It's too much to do until you're like really chock-full of virtue from meditating on the other dependent. But see, Mike's starting to fill up on it. He's getting ready. He's getting ready to face how completely caught up he is in delusion. Aren't you, Mike? But some other people I can tell, I mean, excuse me, some other people I fantasize that you are not ready, that you're really still digging in your heels and fighting back. But I don't really think that's true. It's just what I dream. You would? Okay. Well, is that enough for tonight?

[81:01]

May our intention...

[81:08]

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