And the cheval is one horse? Cheval, yeah. Cheval is cheval. Cheval, I mean, you know, horses is okay, but cheval. That's very chic. You know, so if somebody wanted to say cheval, you could probably deal with that as long as they took care of the horses the way you think is appropriate. And the kitchen's leaving. Celia? It's along the lines of... I forgot the name. And then a question. So I can experience a situation, let's say a sun, the rain falling, the wind blowing. Maybe not put a concept

[01:02]

or give it a conceptual. Just hear. Just hear the sun. I can get there. Now, from there to say, and then I give it inherent existence. But I just let it just be there. From there to not give it. So to see that the dependent co-arising, there is still another step or another experience. So I'm going almost like, my question is on the reverse path. The question I have is, the dependent co-arising doesn't have anything there that recognizes it. There's not going to be I that recognizes it. I'm not going to be there to recognize it. But when it's recognized, maybe not I, but when it's recognized, when it's experienced...

[02:11]

In terms of Chapter 5, it's recognized when Manas is operating. Manas starts operating and the recognition process starts. Malaya is in the sense organs. The sense organs are alive and conscious, but there's no identification of the rain or the wind. The rain and the wind. The sense organs are dancing with the rain and the wind. They're dancing with the rain and the wind. Malaya is there with them, connected to them, sharing that with them. But this experience is not identified. There's no object that is known here. Can't say rain. Can't say rain, no. Can't say rain or wind. And then there is a kind

[03:16]

of like reflection of that, and then there is the mono-vijnana dhatu knows that reflection. And now there is the knowing of the reflection of the effect of consciousness arising at the unknown level. However, it also comes in this process because of Manas. We cannot avoid in order to be aware, this system is saying, in order to be aware of the color or whatever it is, color or idea, Manas gets involved and Manas brings this imagination of an essence. So, it's possible to have a direct experience, like a laya, just to have a direct experience, and there wouldn't be any projection of the self onto the experience.

[04:21]

That experience without the projection of self would not really be identified or recognized. However, a laya simultaneously carries the seeds. The seeds for the projection for the self is in a laya, but it's not operating. But such occasions are also not known to us, basically. So, the things that are happening for us are things where a laya is dependently co-arising with an active Manas, which is projecting this imputational character onto the dependent co-arising. And you can get very calm sometimes, so the effects of this projection are, you know,

[05:26]

very small, you feel quite calm, like you're still there. The projection is still there, even in states of being calm and quiet. So, a question I had before also on this subject is, a laya is there but it's not operating. I have also perceived a laya... No, a laya is there and operating, but the way a laya operates is that it's not identified. You can't identify the way it's operating unless you reflect on it. And the reflection on it is called Manas. And Manas is universal because it is the defense organ, it is the mind organ. You have to have it in order to be consciously aware of an object. You need to have Manas, but Manas also brings this defiling self-projection into the picture.

[06:28]

So this projection is universal. The imputational character is universal. And that's why I think they call, they say, when you know the other dependent character as it really is, you know afflicted character. Because you can see that our experience is afflicted by this universally pervading, defiling projection of self on everything. But as we understand afflicted character as it really is, we abandon afflicted character, and then we know character of purification. I have one more question. The experience of the dependent co-arising, would it leave an imprint? Would it leave an imprint? Would it leave a memory?

[07:32]

Experiences of dependent co-arising leave an imprint, yes. Experiences have consequences. And if you experience dependent co-arising as having a self, that has a different consequence than not believing the apparent self of dependent co-arising. And if you have those experiences of not believing the self of dependent co-arising, then lay down new experiences in the process of dependent co-arising. So you mean the experience of not-self lays down the consequences? Right. The experience of not-self transforms life, and sets up the possibility for other opportunities, for other moments of not believing the essence of things which appears in the process of conventional designation.

[08:36]

And gradually we start to learn to, as we say, remove the signs of compounded phenomena, by not believing the essence of the signs, the essences which occur with the signs. By removing the signs, we stop believing in the essences. And there's lots of opportunities for this. Everybody we meet, this is going on, but can we be mindful to remember this possibility of this meditation, and be ardent to apply it, and be alert to apply it to this moment? And the answer is, maybe. Maybe. But there has to be a lot of enthusiasm for this. So what we're trying to work up here is a vision, a liberating vision,

[09:42]

which, if you can learn it and understand it, then you can engage with it in your meditation. But it seems to be taking a great effort to bring this vision before us, so we can engage with it, so we can embrace it. Anybody who had their hand raised and I didn't call on you at all? I called on you. Yes, I did. Didn't I call on Tina? He withdrew his question because it wasn't appropriate at the time. I had several new ones, I'll ask the first one again. In the text it says, you know the other dependent character by strongly adhering to the invitation. I just don't understand that at all, because I thought you know the other dependent character by knowing the other dependent character as it is,

[10:48]

not putting imputations on and not adhering to the invitation. That's right. What it means is, you know the imputational, it means the way you know the imputational character is to not know the imputational character. The way you know the imputational character is to know it in a mistaken way. This is just saying... The way we know the other dependent character is to know it in a mistaken way. That's the way we know it. But for the imputational, this is wrong, because by knowing the signs, you would know it in the right way. Yes, exactly. It says, you know the imputational character depending on signs connected to words. And then you can see, the signs connected to the word, then you can see the projection of essence. But that's correct. That's correct. That's what it is. But the second one isn't correct, by knowing...

[11:51]

The second one isn't correct. That's why, if you study that process and think about, meditate on that, you will realize, you will understand the afflictive character. That's the basic affliction. Because we have... All we really can know is dependent co-arising. All you can know is dependent co-arising. The imputational character is a dependent co-arising too. It's a dependent co-arising of a projection of anti-dependent co-arising. It's a dependent co-arising and you can see it. You can also see the other dependent... the thoroughly established character. But in order to see that, you need to understand that you usually don't see the other dependent character without this covering. And you need to learn what the covering is. And you need to train yourself to not believe that covering. Until you can actually see the absence of the covering. And then you see the thoroughly established. But you have to loosen up on this strong adherence in order to open to the possibility of seeing its absence.

[12:52]

And people who loosen up, they actually experience that loosening up is actually scary. It's unusual. It's foreign. It's awkward. And so they actually sometimes hesitate to shrink back from loosening up. And then sometimes they relax with that and loosen up some more. And they open more and more to the possibility of the absence of the imputational in the other dependent. By not so strongly adhering to this grasping of the other dependent as this essence. Not so much grasping everything so that you can make these conventional designations. To loosen up. Even while it's still going on. To loosen it. To loosen it. To loosen it. More and more. To relax with it more and more. To get calmer with it. And the more calm you get, the more you can dare to loosen up.

[13:55]

And then loosening up actually also sometimes can calm you, but sometimes it gets you upset. So then you maybe have to forget about the insight meditation and go just to tranquility. And from tranquility come back to the insight. And then start loosening up. And see if you can loosen up without getting scared of what will happen to you if you don't keep things in your little boxes. Your mind doesn't keep things in their essences so that you can talk about them. Because you can see, I won't be able to talk effectively if I don't keep essences on things. And in the short run that might happen. But as, you know, like, the example of people who are having trouble remembering words, they have an advantage in a way. Because they're already in a boat of not being able to talk very effectively. So, you know, a little loosening, who knows, it might make it easier for me to find the words. Grace? Well, I had this experience last night of

[14:59]

not so much loosening words as loosening, well maybe it was, previous experience. I had turned the tea water on, I had turned it off. And then I found myself reaching for the tea kettle. And usually what would happen in something like that is a memory, an essence, sort of a memory of heat on the kettle would come forward. It didn't until my hand actually touched the handle. And I thought, wow. Wow. Because part of the essence process is very self-protective, i.e. protective of the organism. And at that moment, you know, it was like not finding the word. I wasn't even looking for my own past experience of heat there. Forgot about it.

[16:01]

Yeah, there's some dangers on the path here. So as we transition from one way of relating to the world, which works pretty well, to another way which potentially will work much better in the long run, when we transition sometimes we get kind of awkward. So that's why sometimes it's said not to do certain things when you're transitioning between different ways of being in this world. Now, I wouldn't claim that this is because I'm loosening up, because I'm practicing with this. Hips, chest, stiff legs. Right, but something like that might happen as a result of making a major transition to another way of seeing things. You might, you know, like sometimes, just simply if you sit sashi

[17:05]

and you sit cross-legged for a week, sometimes I found that my knees become overly stretched, and I don't go running right after sashi sometimes. I just walk for a while until my legs learn what they become from sitting cross-legged a lot for a whole week. They get looser, for me. And so it's, you know, they're not the same knees that went into the sashi. So if we start doing these meditations which are training our minds in new ways, and our minds are changing in unfamiliar forms, we have to be careful as we take on certain kinds of complex physical tasks in the world, or mental tasks. So that's part of what sometimes we watch out for in transitions, in and out of certain kinds of trainings. I think it's been requested to go on for two hours now, so maybe that's enough. I mean, it's not enough, and it is enough. And it's been a long time,

[18:07]

and there's still a great deal more to discuss, but it seems like two hours is pretty good. Is that all right? Yeah. Okay. Okay. I vow to save them. Delusions are inexhaustible. I vow to end them. Dharma needs are boundless. I vow to enter them.

[19:09]

Buddha's way is unsurpassable. I vow to become it.

[19:17]

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