I heard someone say, how does it all fit together? Today, I don't know if I can tell you how it all fits together, but I do feel like I should tidy up your minds a little bit so you can manage to walk out of the room. I also want to express sincere appreciation for your opening your minds to be reorganized, or I even sometimes feel like you've allowed your minds to be opened up and now maybe to some extent we'll close them back up again

[01:01]

so that you can go back to your old way of life. Remember how you used to be? And I also want to mention that in the development of wisdom there are three phases or three kinds of wisdom, which are taught in this sutra and other places. One is wisdom which arises from hearing, or hearing, which means hearing and discussing with the teacher and studying. It's the first level of wisdom. And that's the level at which most people have been involved in that level of wisdom or that level of learning these wisdom teachings during the Seshina and during this practice period.

[02:02]

The next level, that kind of wisdom, is wisdom that comes from reflection. So an actual kind of wisdom arises from hearing the teaching correctly and checking out your understanding. And the next level of wisdom arises from reflecting in your own mind and thinking about the teaching based on the earlier kind of wisdom. This is wisdom which arises from reflection or thinking or pondering or analysis. The third kind of wisdom comes from taking the second kind of wisdom into a state of tranquility. And then a third kind of wisdom which arises from the context of calm abiding or calm meditation arises. So there's a variety of people here, but I think a lot of you are still at the phase of

[03:11]

just basically trying to clearly understand the teachings of these three natures and these three non-natures, or these three characters and these three kinds of lack of own being. And part of my tidying up is to suggest to you that I think it's okay for you to continue to study these teachings either on your own or with a teacher, but I would suggest that you don't try to meditate on these teachings without a teacher helping you. I myself will continue to, in various venues, continue to study these teachings through the rest of the summer

[04:12]

and probably in the August session. But some of you I would suggest that what you work on if you don't actually have fairly ready access to some assistance in your studies of these wisdom teachings is that in your meditation practice that you practice tranquility. But again, as I was talking to someone earlier, all of us should be practicing tranquility so that we are, as a form of being kind to ourselves and soothing to ourselves, so that we feel soothed and relaxed, because these teachings, these wisdom teachings should come to a person who is already being kind to herself and continues to be kind to herself while she's doing these studies,

[05:13]

otherwise you can become kind of... well, you will be irritated by them to some extent and irritated by phenomena as usual, and so it's good to be constantly being kind to yourself while you're doing these wisdom practices. So again, I'm recommending that you don't do the wisdom practices in your meditation practice unless you have guidance, but I think it's okay for you to do your, of course, calming practice. I think you have enough background to work on that. Calming practices are not quite as irritating. Also, we have talked about the three natures

[06:23]

and the three kinds of lack of own being, but we mostly have emphasized studying the other dependent character, which is the production lack of own being, or lack of own being in terms of production. And the Buddha initiates the study of the three characters and the three types of lack of own being. He initiates the meditation by the meditation on the other dependent. And the meditation on the other dependent has two, has a dual purpose.

[07:23]

The first purpose is to draw us into basic religious practice. Its first purpose is to draw us into recognizing, or I could even say re-cognizing, re-cognizing, that the experiences that we're given right now, moment by moment, are under the influence of causes and conditions. The experiences we're undergoing right now, the experience we're undergoing right now, is under the influence of causes and conditions. The experiences we're undergoing now are not produced in and of themselves.

[08:27]

That's the main point of the, that's the main point, that's the initiatory teaching to be meditated on. The things you see, the things you feel, the things you think, the things you experience, in other words, are under the influence of things other than themselves. They are not produced in and of themselves. This meditation on each thing, each event, is the beginning of the meditation on the other dependent. And I said re-cognizing because actually, moment by moment, you are actually cognizing the phenomena as it freshly comes to you

[09:37]

in its other dependent form, before you conceptually package it in a way that appears to be produced by itself. So you have to, we have to have a teaching which countermands the appearance of things as being solid and independent. But actually you are experiencing that, so this teaching helps you re-cognize or recognize that things are other than they appear. They don't appear to be really due to other things than themselves. So this teaching helps you keep remembering that about each thing you see. As you meditate in this way, you are drawn into another way of being with your experiences, because as you realize this and meditate on this and recognizing it, you more and more see that things, again, are not responsible for themselves,

[10:44]

that they're unstable, impermanent and unreliable. You start to see that the things that are coming to you, you recognize that they're unreliable. This draws you into wishing to practice virtue with these things and really not wanting to relate to these things in the excessive ways that we do relate to things when we see them as self-made, permanent and independent. This teaching will embarrass us

[11:47]

when we look at things as though they were pure and stable and reliable. We still may feel that way, but we kind of feel like something's funny about something rotten in Denmark. It's this view I have of things as being what I think they are. And they look kind of like, all kind of like unitary and on their own. So you start to feel embarrassed about seeing things that way, even though you still do. And you start to gradually sense and recognize that they're not reliable. Still you take care of them now, and you're drawn into, by this teaching, to take care of them in more and more virtuous ways. At this level of the teaching, we are not yet getting into the profound aspects of dependent co-arising, which is the second reason for teaching this first,

[12:49]

is that the other dependent character phenomena is the basis for the teaching of the other two characters, which when we start to study them, we start to realize more than just the impermanence of the other dependent, but also how it's the basis of the more profound aspects of reality. So I hope that you've gotten a good start on meditating on the other dependent character of everything you experience, which is also to meditate on the nature of everything that you experience of not producing itself, the lack of having the nature of self-production. That we can be mindful of that teaching, that everything you see has the nature of not producing itself.

[13:50]

When I feel, and with your help of perhaps showing me, that you're well-situated in this practice, this meditation on the other dependent, that we're together in this, then we can, if you excuse the expression, launch our attack on illusion, launch our attack on the imputational character. Well, launch our attack on our belief in it. And so we'll see throughout the rest of the spring and summer, and maybe by August, you'll be ready. We'll be ready. Maybe not. I'm not in a hurry to get into this battle. I want to make sure you can really be kind to yourself

[15:09]

before we get into this. So, that's sort of an overview. And I also want to say that in the sutra where it talks about how when beings do not yet have not yet cultivated the roots of virtue and so on, do not have confidence up to, have not completed the accumulation of merit and wisdom, these are the people that this teaching is given to. And then it says that when they do meditate on this teaching, then they do come to develop confidence and they do accumulate and complete the accumulation of merit and wisdom. And then it talks about how then they study the teachings of the imputational character and the teachings of the thoroughly established character. And then they do become completely unattached and then they become completely liberated. This is the way it goes, according to the sutra, but the sutra doesn't mention that this is a rough ride.

[16:11]

So I want to tell you again, that's why you have to keep practicing compassion through this process. So, there's a great deal more to talk about, of course, but I think that's enough from me today. So I leave room if you have anything you want to bring up. Yes? When you say it's a rough ride, that's what I would like to address. It's not a rough ride when I'm looking at people and they hear me, I open to the idea that they're not who I think they are, because they've become very beautiful. That's not a rough ride. But, here's an example.

[17:13]

It is a rough ride for people, overall. And here's an example, which may be related to it. I went to open to the idea that people just ask the question they're questioning here. And so, I felt a strong urge to ask the question, and I felt this energy, and everything became, you know, widened. They may not have a lot of energy, so I felt this energy rising up. And then, I realized, as I tried to look at the other dependent situation, that maybe maybe other people's questions would also bring forth the same material. It didn't have to be me. So, I thought I would practice not asking that question, and then the energy just rocked out completely. And,

[18:14]

I recognized a feeling I had in the study of, kind of, you know, the impression that I wasn't going to get anything out of it. I wasn't going to get anything out of it. And, so I wonder if that's part of the rough ride. I mean, part of the rough ride might be the thought that you're not going to get anything out of the ride? Well, I realized that the questions were coming, and it seemed it all looked good. But, I was more aware of the people around me, and more aware of the whole situation. So, it was all opening up. But, there was this other thing that wasn't getting anything, that was still hurt. You weren't getting anything? Yes. I wasn't getting anything, even though the situation Well, that thought, that thought you just mentioned of, quotes, I'm not getting anything, unquote, that thought, that's another, that's a phenomena that's coming to you, okay?

[19:19]

Now, if you look at that phenomena, quotes, I'm not getting anything out of it, unquote, if you look at that as a phenomena, and see that that phenomena is not producing itself, that phenomena is not reliable, that phenomena is unstable, if you see that, then you won't overvalue this statement that you're not getting anything out of it. It's a perfectly good statement, I'm not getting anything out of this, or I am getting something out, those are perfectly good statements, those are phenomena that you're having, okay? This is your experience you're having, quote, I'm not getting anything out of this. You apply the teaching to that, and then that diffuses this phenomena of its over-evaluation, or of its, you know, over-valuation, and then your energy won't get blocked. It's because we put, it's because our mind puts too much onto things

[20:20]

that we get, and we get really disoriented by things, and then our energy gets blocked because we're over-evaluating, which also includes under-evaluating things. So if you apply the teaching to, if you're studying the teaching and then various thoughts come up about the teaching, or the study, or the practice, then remember to apply the teaching to those, and then your various opinions of how it's going will not disorient you, you won't get, your energy won't get fragmented among these various things, and won't get blocked by putting too much value on them. Giving them too much credit. Giving them too much reality. Yeah, apply it to any phenomena that's coming to you. Bring this teaching to bear, and then you'll start to recognize

[21:23]

what the teaching says about the things. And then you'll start to recognize how impermanent and unstable they are. And you'll start to be embarrassed when you see them as permanent and stable. But be willing to confess it, because, you know, it's no problem to confess it, because that's part of what you want to do with this stuff. You want to confess. Rather than get this stuff, you want to confess that you're trying to get it. Rather than try to get something out of this, this teaching will make you want to confess that you're trying to get something out of this. Usually people come to a session to get something. After hearing this teaching, you confess that you came to try to get something out of this. You still maybe would like to, but your main effort is to confess that you're trying to get something. Confessing that you're trying to get something gets your energy flowing again. Trying to get something depresses you. And depresses everybody else.

[22:34]

It doesn't do this practice with your depression. Yes? ... I didn't... We have more what? Suppositions about what? ... I didn't quite follow that.

[23:40]

To me, there's only one idea about self. Self. ... That's the essence and the attributes. Okay? We project that onto things. We impute that onto things. Yes? ... It's not reifying the self. Reifying is the self. Reifying is what we mean by self. You're not reifying the self. The self. ... Well, reifying is self-imputation. It's kind of the same thing. When you reify an object, you put a self on it. ...

[24:41]

Oh, you reify the person, you mean. Yeah, a person is not a self. So, Daniel, you're Daniel, you're a person, you're a Zen student, blah, blah. Okay, but you're not a self. But we can put a self on you, and that's the same as reifying you. That's like over-valuing you, putting an excessive level of reality onto you, so excessive that you don't need anybody else. So we do that to you, you do that to yourself, that's projecting self onto a person. There are people, they're just not unitary, independent people. They're other dependent people. Right, and so on top of that, I mean ... On top of what? On top of another dependent person? On top of what I said? Okay. Now, armed with the sutra, and it's ... Armed with the sutra.

[25:42]

And if you look at the categories for characteristics of phenomena, I think that one may run the risk of taking all these imitations and the ideas that we've already had about phenomena, and now just getting a whole new layer of imitations and ideas down upon the ideas of the meaning of the sutra. And then if you try to have ideas about your ideas that you got from the sutra, then you just have another ... Yeah, that's why you should be really kind to yourself. Soothe yourself so you can tolerate this irritating situation you just described. You should soothe yourself while you're trying to escape. But if we're meditating on the independent, then that's taking these ideas we have about the world and saying, Hey, I should have new ideas about the world, and then just ...

[26:43]

No, it's not saying that. I mean, it's not saying that, but that's what you're saying. It doesn't say in there ... It doesn't say, you should have different ideas. It says that all ... It doesn't try to take this meditation and apply it to all your experience. It doesn't say that either. It just says, if you do take this teaching and apply it to your experience, like, for example, the experience of I should be doing something different or I should have different ideas. That's an experience you have. If you apply this teaching, if you listen to this teaching, then the experience is like I should be some different kind of person, that kind of experience. You won't take that so seriously. You'll see that that's an impermanent, unreliable comment. Okay? And you'll relate to it in a virtuous way. So this thing will come up on the screen, I should have different ideas will come up there. You have the experience. And listening to this teaching, you relate to that in a virtuous way more and more.

[27:45]

Wait a minute. Besides that ... Every time I say something after you say something, everybody laughs. But I just feel like, you know, taking these ... And why do you think they laughed? Did you laugh too, by the way? You're kind of getting the joke, I think. So how come you think ... What are the conditions for the ... What is the reason for the laughter, do you imagine? Because you say something pretty eloquent, and I say, Yeah, but ... Yeah, but ... I just don't see the way of escaping the reification of the sutra, that you've got these three characteristics. That's the way it is. You don't see ... Okay, I heard you say, you don't see the way of escaping the reification of the sutra. Okay, so in other words,

[28:47]

could I say that you think that maybe you'll continue to reify the sutra? I really should. I'm a better person here. I'm not, but ... It just seems like another linguistic barrier. Okay. Seems like a linguistic barrier. And what does the sutra say to do with that linguistic barrier? Hmm?

[29:49]

Got a linguistic barrier called the sutra. What does it say in the sutra to do about that linguistic barrier? For starters. Yeah. Again, it's just what? A linguistic barrier? It's taking a linguistic barrier and applying it to a linguistic barrier. And it's telling you that if you apply this linguistic barrier to your regular linguistic barriers, then you'll start to not be so excessively involved in your linguistic barriers. Pardon? Diminishing return? No, no. Not diminishing return. You're ... You're hindered by that barrier. Right. Until you're ready to actually start examining the barrier.

[30:57]

Because you've lightened your involvement with the barrier, including the barrier of the teaching which you're applying to the phenomena. Because you're going to do the same thing with the teaching that you're doing with the phenomena you're applying the teaching to. However, the skill of the Buddha is to give you teachings which you're going to use the way you use everything else, but those teachings will start to change the way you use the teachings and the way you use the teachings on things and the way you relate to things that the teaching is bearing to. That's a wisdom practice. It will change your view of things. You're looking at them in a certain way that they're linguistic barriers because the linguistic barrier is based on an imposition of self on them. That's the way you look at them already and you're going to do that with everything, but this teaching is saying, remember something about this and then you'll start to relate to these things differently.

[32:01]

And it's not a matter that you're going to immediately escape the reification of phenomena. That's not going to happen right away, but you're going to start to like, you know, become less concerned and less hopeful that these reified things are going to help you because you're going to be more and more convinced that they're impermanent because they depend on things other than themselves. They're unreliable. And so your involvement with them will change. You're not going to expect that these things are going to give you happiness. And that until you actually enter into the profound aspects of this, the reification process is still going to be effective, but this teaching is going to protect you and draw you into another way of relating to them. Which is not so excessive and will, you know, be called virtuous.

[33:07]

And you're going to want it and you're going to like it and you're going to want to do more of it and you're going to want to turn away from this old way of being so involved in these reified objects. But the reifications may not change that much, but you're going to... You have this teaching that goes with every reification that says... The reification is that it appears to be self-produced. The teaching is it's not self-produced. So you've got Buddha in your ear, one ear, and devil in the other ear. So things are starting to start changing. Yes? I noticed the form is an excellent source for these little subtleties that we get in here. Just kind of sitting and doing the Ayurvedic stuff. I can see when just a slight sort of misdoing of something, a sort of flush comes over me.

[34:09]

And usually I slap the resignation, some embarrassment or something on there, or I immediately sort of reify it. And I've noticed there's a lot... All of the form, when there's any deviance from it, it really brings up this whole process. Or even just like talking right now, there's a sort of a... Beforehand, there's a definite palpitation of the beating of the heart. And this reification again, and it's... And I've noticed like a laughing, crying, different emotions that do come up. They all have the same feelings that sort of course to the body. There's kind of overlaps, where they course to the same sort of feelings. And when... So how is it that we can sort of call laughing this

[35:12]

when it's got the same sort of feeling that come up when crying? It may not be as many muscles... But we put the same label on there, or we put some label on it. And it's been interesting just to sort of see that this resignation is a really important part of realizing the resignation is being put on there, that it doesn't have to be put on there. Except by convention. Yeah, the overvaluation, you know, the reification we put on objects is reversed in our practice by forms, by rituals. These rituals and symbols of our practice which we enact are the main way we work on reversing this reification.

[36:14]

With the teaching, but the teaching comes together with the forms. So it isn't just... We don't just have classes, we also have little things like sashins and bodies to work with. And we put bodies in certain forms and we say that the being illuminated by the Buddhism ancestors is to examine this sitting posture. So it gives you a nice form to work with so that you can enter into the reversal of this thing and all this stuff comes up, all this information. You mentioned, I think, just before the end, talking to Professor Matt about the... It's got to do with the actual material that we do use. It comes up sort of... I mean, you can't really test yourself. You have to be tested by other... by yourself and others. I mean, if we didn't have this stuff to work with,

[37:18]

then you wouldn't be making any headway. Well, we can make a little headway just by having classes and stuff. But the forms... I mean, I don't mean just the form here in sashin, but the form... Of daily life. Yeah. Yeah, right. Uh-huh. Yes. It seems to you that the process of making concepts involves grasping? Maybe we're lost in something that doesn't involve grasping. Well, maybe so, but to me it doesn't seem like making...

[38:20]

To me, the making of concepts, to me, doesn't involve grasping. To me, the making of concepts is dependant co-arising, which is not grasping. The actual process of creation is not grasping. To me, that's how I see it. However, once concepts are made, they can be grasped. And the grasping also dependantly co-arises, but you don't grasp in making the grasping. The grasping dependantly co-arises, and the thing grasped dependantly co-arises. And the view that the thing that is grasped doesn't... The view that something doesn't dependantly co-arise, that also dependantly co-arises. But what you're dreaming of, the dream of something being graspable, is the dream that the thing is independent. And with that dream of the independence of the thing,

[39:21]

then there can be grasping of it. But the making of all this is not by grasping. It's rather that grasping is made. And because grasping is made by things other than itself, grasping is empty. And because grasping is empty, we don't have to worry about it. We can be free of it. Anything is possible because grasping is empty. Grasping is not made by grasping. But grasping is made. That's what I would say. But it looks like grasping is... It looks like grasping is involved in making concepts because it looks like everything that's grasping is involved. Because that's the way things look through grasping. Which is the same as that's the way things look when they're reified. It looks like grasping makes them. Grasping makes them or because of the way they are you can grasp them.

[40:26]

It's kind of two sides of the same illusion. And we do have to have illusion. We've got to have it. But anyway, I would say it that way. Yes? Yes? First of all, listen to it. You need a little... somebody talking in your ear saying to you, this experience is under the influence of things other than itself and it is not produced in and of itself. Hear that teaching enough times so that you can hear it for everything you see, everything you taste, everything you touch, everything you think, everything you feel, everything you do. That's how you apply it. Just listen to it.

[41:29]

Same thing, because what you think, what we think about things, the way we think is that they're independent, they make themselves and you're to blame for being you. That's what we think. Unless you do something good, then I'm responsible for you. ... Can you say it louder, Pam? She said something about don't touch.

[42:45]

She thought it was effective when she sees things to say don't touch. So, my question is, is the practice of not moving a different practice from when you're teaching together or is it a variation of it? Actually, I had a conversation, I remember Timo's question, I had a conversation with someone else where the subtle relationship between tranquility, the gesture of the mind which is conducive to tranquility and the gesture of the mind which is conducive to penetrating vision, that they sometimes are subtly related. So, when something happens and someone used the expression,

[43:49]

when something happens and it's allowed, and then something happens and it's allowed, and then something happens and it's allowed, and then something happens and it's allowed, each thing you just allow, in that way you're not moving. So, different things happen, but my mind doesn't really move from one to the other because I allow this, [...] so the mind is really unmoving, it's always just allowing. Okay? And that means you're not moving among the objects, the objects are changing in front of you, either the object has some continuity and it's changing or you have different objects, but you don't move among them, you relate to each one the same and you train your attention to relate to the same

[44:49]

in this allowing relaxed way. You allow them, you don't like comment, you don't value or devalue, you just allow them, that will calm you. Now, that's not all that different from meditating on the other dependent, because the other dependent, something happens and you think something about it, but you kind of allow it. But the difference is, instead of just allowing it, you're actually looking at it and noticing how it appears and saying, you're looking at the object now and it's not that you're emphasizing it's different from other objects, but you're actually saying something about the object, you're actually examining the object and you're looking at it and you're saying, this thing, and you know, as far as you want to go, this thing arises in dependence on things other than itself

[45:49]

and is not produced in and of itself, those two things, you say those things about it to yourself. This comment could, however, be calming, because this comment will allow you, kind of allows the thing to be that way, you're not going to be so, you know, wrought up about it. This teaching does, so some people are finding this way of talking to themselves about what they're seeing, which is an insight meditation, as calming. Other people, if they try to do what they've usually heard as calming, it doesn't work as well as this instruction, so this instruction could be somewhat calming, but for some other people this instruction, if they were already calm, would be fine, but if they weren't calm, and they did this instruction, they might not get calm. So if you're already calm, and you did this meditation on the other dependent, you might become more calm, or if you weren't calm, you might become more calm, but also if you were calm, you might become somewhat agitated,

[46:52]

because you're talking to yourself now. Although, it's more like remaining calm with my meditation, because when I say the teaching, I see what I'm doing. When you say the teaching, you see what you do with it? Yes, I say the words more clearly than I think. Yes. You're looking for that thing which is more. Yes, and that might be helpful to some people, but some people might not like that.

[47:54]

I mean, that might agitate them. So to look for how the thing is produced by conditions, how it's under the influence of things other than itself, to look for that is probably not a good idea, because you're just going to find some story. It's too complex to see, actually, in that way. So you just remind yourself of this teaching. Again, it says, when they hear this teaching, and then it talks about the transformation they go through. When Bodhisattvas hear this teaching, they turn away from wrongdoing and turn towards virtue. When they hear this teaching, they realize things are impermanent and unreliable. When they hear this teaching, they give up being excessively involved in these phenomena. It doesn't say when they see the other dependent nature, because again, you can't exactly see it, because although you are seeing it, it's mixed with the imputational at this stage of the practice.

[48:58]

Later in the practice, they can be disentangled. You can see them as different. But at this point anyway, you're still kind of confusing these different natures because of the superimposition of conceptual clinging. So you hear the teaching, and you apply the teaching to the experiences that are still mixed with reification. But you start changing even before you can see things differently. But you kind of do see them differently because you hear the teaching. Just like, you know, again, you're looking at someone and someone's whispering in your ear, you know, she's not just what you think she is. It's kind of like you see differently. Or someone's saying, close your eyes and open them again. Or respect this person, respect this person, respect this person, respect this person.

[49:59]

They look like they're being disrespectful to you, but respect them. That's kind of what this teaching is saying. This teaching is saying respect everything. But that's not all that different from allow everything. Right? Allow this person is like respect this person. So it's a little different than just allowing. Even though when you hear this teaching, you do start allowing things more because you're not so fixed on the appearance that they make themselves. When you see things that are making themselves, you have to work pretty hard to allow them because you want to make some comment to this thing that made itself. And you feel various emotions because the thing looks like it makes itself, you feel all these emotions, so you want to like push them away or grab them. So you've got to bring this teaching to bear and the pushing and grabbing will gradually calm down.

[51:05]

Although, until we address the profound aspects, we'll always be vulnerable to this pushing and grabbing and confusion between the two. Yes? Yes. Okay. Yes. Yes. Yes. Now, excuse me. So the imputation is not terrorist. The word terrorist is a word. So the imputation uses words, but the imputation is that which is imputed to this phenomenon.

[52:11]

So that you can say terrorist. So this thing which we finally can say Ben Laden about, before you can say Ben Laden on to him, you have to override or over cover his other dependent nature and put this unitary thing on it. Then you can put the word Osama on it. The imputation is not the word. The imputation uses the words to make these... Say it again. Say it again. Yes. Yes.

[53:23]

Before you'll be able to do that, you probably already have some compassion. But your compassion will be much greater and much more skillful when you understand, when you actually could understand the other dependent character of someone. Then your compassion is really released and your skill is really released. But you have to feel some compassion, I think, before you even be able to get to the meditative development where you can see the thoroughly established character of the thing. But you can be quite compassionate up to that point and then you're fully compassionate. Does that make sense? Gee, I'm going to go over to this side of the room for a little while. Jeff? When grasping occurs? When grasping occurs, a person believes a concept, right?

[54:31]

When you believe a concept, you can't stop but grasping. Same thing. You can't stop but grasping. The grasping will be automatic as soon as you believe a thing. As soon as you believe it, you grasped it. So you can't really stop the grasping once you believe. So what we want to do is we want to give up the belief. That's what the meditation can do. My question was, who is doing the believing? Who? It's a consciousness that believes. It's a consciousness that sees things appearing a certain way and then the concept comes up and says, Yes, this is it. This really is blue or this really is bad. Not even this really is, just this is blue, this is bad. That's the agreement. And then there's clinging. And then, based on that, you can put the word blue on it

[55:32]

and then it appears all by itself in the world and everybody else can say, Yeah. It's not really the person that believes. It's a person like you or Daniel. You're a person. You have consciousness. It's not the person. Your fingernails don't believe it. But, you know, Jeff isn't just Jeff's consciousness. Also Jeff's teeth. But it's really the consciousness that goes with this person that believes this. In your mind you say, Yeah, uh-huh. Your brain doesn't say that. But your brain creates the impression of the thing being out there. And your mind agrees. That's what agrees, is that kind of consciousness. I'm trying to understand what that phenomenon you just described is. I guess it has to be that.

[56:34]

It's other dependent too, definitely. And then I'm trying to understand how, if that decision, that decision point is not grasped or grasped, does that influence, how that influences, obviously we're discussing how that influences events in the future as a result. Yeah, and that will be one of the things that will condition further grasping. So the grasping that happens is not making itself happen. It's partly happening under the influence of previous graspings. So I'm, this is my question I want to bring up, about this idea of other power, like that, that's an idea. Is that entity that's making that choice empowering the future somehow? So you just brought in an entity that's making a choice. Well, there's other dependent entities. And that's an example of an imputation. That you brought in an entity that's making the choice.

[57:37]

The other way to describe it is simply that the appearance of an essence is put on an experience, and because of that appearance, there can be grasping. There's not an entity that's running the show here. But rather there's the imagination of an entity, and once there's imagination of an entity, then there's grasping of the entity. But there's not an entity that's imagining the entity. But there's the imagination of an entity, and you just voiced it. So meditating on the other dependent warms you up to an entity-less possibility, or the possibility of entity-lessness, which means opening up... God, there's a lot of... Yes, Hector, a lot of questions. Hector? When the grounders are engaging in wisdom,

[58:44]

I've been listening to people, I've been thinking about people, and I've been doing something that I think has been trying to engage in. However, in meditating on what I think is the other dependent, I'm not sure how to talk about it. But something that you mentioned is by virtue of us being human beings, we need to mention meditation to talk about our understanding. But I said I'll have a hard time if I constantly do not ask the right questions and the problem arises. However, in listening to other people ask questions their questions about some of their experiences trigger something in me in terms of my experiences. And I'm wondering if I'm making a conventional intervention

[59:49]

or I'm laying upon what they're talking about because it kind of evokes some other other dependent implications of that. Well, part of what I heard you say was you're wondering if you make conventional designations upon what they're saying, upon what you hear them saying. That was part of your question? And it sounded to me like, yes, you are. You are making conventional designations. I hear you doing it. So, yes, that's happening. And that's how things come into conventional existence is by making conventional designations. And that was the next part of your question? I couldn't quite hear what you said.

[60:51]

Something about bringing fruit to something? By making that conventional designation, by the concept of what I'm listening and hearing and hearing and what it's triggering in me, I'm wondering if that is a way of experiencing without being able to fully talk about it, without having to engage in other kinds of meditation. I see. Well, I would say it's possible. However, it sounds it sounds real complicated. But it might work. I don't exactly know what kind of language is going to help you or somebody else

[61:54]

get a sense that what you're experiencing is produced by things other than itself and lead you to have confidence that whatever you're looking at is impermanent, unstable and not worthy of your confidence. But what you just said might be conducive to that. So you can... Yes? All these concepts, for me, I think they go beyond words.

[62:55]

I didn't understand your question. You said something about art. Who isn't? Fredrick? I've been actually thinking about art and painting, the little bit that I've done, and other activities with great, single-pointed attention, like gardening. Not like gardening on a farm or a semi-active individual, listening to music, where the mind is not engaged. It could be being in nature. There's a unit of experience, right? Time doesn't really help us always. What's the relationship with that single-pointedness of just the doing of art,

[64:02]

the doing of the body, or a musician making music? With the single-pointed attention that you're talking about, it's not as if you're actually doing it. It's that right now, listening to you, I try to hear the teaching. The teaching is that this is not happening by its own power. That there isn't this guy over there talking to me who's making himself say these things to me. That there's a mysterious element in this conversation. So that mysterious element exists because the dad does...

[65:08]

Excuse me, I can't hear you. That mysterious element what? That mysterious element exists in whatever I do. That mysterious element exists in every phenomenal act. That's what the teaching's saying. This ungraspable, dependently co-arising nature of things is with all impermanent phenomena. At this stage of the teaching, it will later maybe be even related to the imputation on the other dependent, but at this stage of the teaching we're just talking about impermanent phenomena like activity or rocks and people. So that we apply that to this... Like right now you're talking to me, for me to do that while I'm listening to you, that's it. Did you have a question? Can you do it with physical pain as well? Yes. Do it with physical pain, definitely.

[66:10]

And how do you work, I mean maybe just continue to be kind with yourself if it's very strong? Well, first of all, be kind with yourself with the physical pain. First of all, be kind with yourself with the physical pain. Try to relax with the physical pain, first of all. Be patient with the physical pain. First of all, take care of it as in the best, most compassionate way you can. Soothe yourself with the physical pain. And when you're well settled in a compassionate way of being with the pain, then you can also now look at the pain and examine its nature. But first of all, starting with not the teaching of its conceptual grasping nature or its ultimate nature, but with its other dependent nature. But this should be founded on taking kind care of the pain in the first place. So you're already being kind with the pain,

[67:16]

now you bring this penetrating teaching, this teaching to help you penetrate to the nature of the pain. Which is, this pain is under the influence of things other than itself. And it's not produced in and of itself. And that will help you relate to the pain in a more virtuous way. You're already being somewhat virtuous with it by practicing compassion. But to even deepen the skillfulness and the virtue of your... You can try to be compassionate with something, but if you don't bring this teaching to it, your compassion is somewhat undermined by your grasping of how it appears. Your energy is blocked by your grasping. So this teaching starts to loosen up your grasping somewhat. Or it loosens up your involvement in your grasping somewhat. So you become more and more skillful in applying compassion to, for example, your pain or someone else's pain.

[68:18]

That could mean you're not sitting. That could mean what? That you're not sitting. That could mean... you mean changing your posture? Yeah. Yeah, definitely. But you might have already changed your posture before you even started to practice wisdom with this pain. Part of the kindness might have been that you already changed your posture before you did this meditation. So some people are sitting cross-legged and they're in pain and they get up from the pain and start walking and feel less pain and then they start practicing insight. Or they're trying to practice insight in the pain but they're not being kind enough to themselves so that they can't apply the teaching of the sutra because they're screaming so much in their head. But if they're a little kinder with their pain in their knee by changing the posture or something, suddenly they hear the teaching of the sutra and they have some insight. But sometimes the kind thing to do

[69:23]

is that you continue to sit. You're being very nice to yourself, you're soothing yourself under the circumstances and you calm down and then the teaching comes, you listen to it and you apply it and you have deeper insight into the pain. Okay? Yes, Delfina? You saw some spiders, translucent spiders on the wall? Yes. I guess I thought it would be a nice way of teaching essential practices but afterwards I felt more awake and I felt like I was woken up.

[70:25]

I don't know. I say congratulations. Congratulations. Do you want more than that? Do you want to get something? Yes? Did you have your hand raised? Yes. Yes. Yes. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Did you say you can't see

[71:33]

the other dependent character of that consciousness? Yes. Yes. So you can see, you see an idea of a consistent thing happening? Is that what you're saying? Okay, so that's a phenomena that you can actually see, kind of like an image or an idea that something consistent is happening? Okay, so that's a phenomena. And then you apply, at this level of the meditation, if you feel ready to do it, you apply the teaching that this appearance, that there's some consistency, that this phenomena has another dependent character. So that you don't get excessively involved in this idea that there's some consistency. So you can relate virtuously

[72:35]

to this idea there's some consistency. There could be another idea, like there's not some consistency. But whatever it is, in terms of these impermanent phenomena, you're applying this teaching to it, which it does apply to all those things. And then it will change, it will draw you into a virtuous mode of being with, for example, ideas like there's some consistency, or ideas like there's not some consistency. That's this meditation. Okay? Go over to this side now. Yes? Well, same as skillful, but, you know, it also means not being excessively involved.

[73:38]

Excessively involved means like too involved, or not enough involved. It's like carrying, it's not carrying too much or too little. It's like carrying the right amount. It's like doing the appropriate thing. It's like being skillful. It's like setting the ground for further developments. That's what I mean by virtue. Yes? There's this world where there's forms and objects and staffs and thoughts, and if I had you guys, it would seem this negative thought and energy and nothing would coalesce into a form. And it doesn't seem that way. I'm wondering, does form precede more concepts? Are we all just agreeing that this can't look, looks like it can't look forward? Is there a form on here before I put an identity on it?

[74:42]

Is there a form before you put an identity on it? Well, yes, there is, but it doesn't have an identity. So it wouldn't just be fog or... Huh? It wouldn't just be fog and the light would be... Well, it's kind of like fog in the sense of, from the point of view of a person who walks around mostly seeing things that are identified, then if you're ushered into a realm where things didn't have identities, you might feel like, yikes, nothing has an identity here. So it might seem like a fog relative to like where everything's got their labels. So in the ordinary world, we don't just look at things in the ordinary world, we zap a little packaging onto everything. And then we can designate it. But before we put this identity on things, they don't have it. That's their emptiness, is that their identity and their entity-ness is nothing more than the word we put on them.

[75:43]

But we put a little thing on them to put the word on, but that's really something we put on there so that we can label them. In the world of dependent co-arising, things are happening in this beautiful way, but you can't like... you are not in and it's actually you kind of thing. Something's happening, but you don't know what it is. But you are impacted by it. And the impact of it, you start to behave more virtuously. If you let this, the teaching of this, as you let the teaching come in, you also let the actual other dependent side of things come into your life and you start to feel the impact. You start to open to the impermanence and the instability of the world of creation. And from the point of view of a gross eye, like we usually have, which sees things in these little chunks unrelated to each other, these eyes which make everybody separate

[76:47]

and deny interdependence, this gross vision we have, that when that gross vision looks at the world of interdependence, it looks kind of like, I don't know what, you can't really say because as soon as I say what it is, it comes back to the gross realm where I identified how it looks. So you might say, well, is it like fog? Well, I don't know. Let's go see. And as soon as you say it's fog, you just got a hold of it, so you lost it. I told this story many times. I'm just going to tell a bunch of stories now, okay? Here's one. I told it last night. I'll tell it differently now. In the beginning, there was the unborn, the unidentified, and the unknown, and it was like a river. But then the river got covered by a road, and the road covered everything. But because the road was originally a river, it was always hungry.

[77:49]

Once there was a girl, and she was very beautiful. She was so beautiful that people stopped worshipping the goddess Aphrodite, and Aphrodite didn't like that. So Aphrodite sent her son, Love, Eros, to bump this girl off. Her name was Psyche. So, anyway, Psyche's dad didn't like her either because nobody wanted to date her because she was so beautiful. Most mortals were. Although when they saw her, they stopped worshipping the goddess of love. They didn't dare approach her, so he couldn't marry her off, so he just put her on a cliff to get rid of her. So Aphrodite sent her son to kill her with his bow and arrow,

[78:55]

but when he saw her, of course, he couldn't do it. She was too beautiful. So Love united with Psyche. But Love told Psyche, Eros told Psyche, oh, excuse me, he united with her in the dark. He came to her in the night and somehow managed to have a nice relationship with her, and she was very happy, and he was very happy, but he said, one drawback of our relationship is you don't get to see who I am. You won't know who I am, and if you ever put the light on me, you'll lose me. Anyway, some forces induced her to be frightened of him and think that he might be a monster and she should find out who he was. So the idea was she was going to take an oil lamp in the night and bring it up to see what he looked like

[79:55]

and have a dagger, and if he was a monster, to kill him. So she brought the candle, the light to him and the dagger, and she saw what he looked like, and he was very beautiful and didn't look like a monster at all. So she knew him, but she dripped a little oil onto his leg and burned him, and he woke up and he said, I told you, if you find out who I am, you'll lose me. And so he flew off. So he is, you know, symbolizing the other dependent nature of our mind. And when the other dependent nature of our mind is joined with our mind, this is happiness, this is happiness. But if we want to know it, we lose it.

[80:56]

It seems like a fog or a darkness from the ordinary point of view, but when united with it, it is happiness. But when we find out about it, we lose it. And then all she goes through to get reunited with him is a story of our spiritual practice of getting reunited with the other dependent nature of things. Okay. Timo? Changing the other dependent phenomena? I didn't say anything about that. Oh, I see.

[82:04]

The goal is to have, to be a more virtuous person, you mean? Yeah, okay. That's right. That's already going on. Dependent phenomena are working on dependent phenomena. There are good and bad dependent phenomena. There are. It's just that they don't have a self. But there are good, there are bad things and good things. There is suffering

[83:05]

and there is happiness. However, suffering, the dependently co-arisen phenomena of suffering doesn't have a self, but it does have a conventional existence and it hurts. Cruelty does exist, conventionally, and it really hurts, but it doesn't have a self. And if you understand it doesn't have a self, then you can liberate yourself and other people from cruelty. Okay, fine. It's a very conventional way to say you want to liberate somebody from suffering. That's a conventional thing. Fine. Yeah. In the conventional world, we want to liberate beings from suffering. That is the whole driving of our practice, this conventional way.

[84:07]

Because otherwise, I mean, I'm still like, if all the phenomena are equal and interacting with each other... Yeah, that's all there is to it. Nothing more to it than that. Just that. And you want to bring them to a certain color because from the conventional way this color is more beautiful than the other color? No, not more beautiful. No, no, no. That's not right. That's not right. That's not right. But it is the case that in the conventional world some people want to be happy and want to help other people to be happy and that's all there is to it. There's nothing more to it than that. And that's the teaching of emptiness, is that there's nothing more than the conventional world. That's all that exists. Right. And so in the end, do you finally think you can change all this or you can drive all these phenomena to, like, happiness or freedom? No, you can't drive them.

[85:07]

You can't drive them. But the meditation does realize happiness, but it's not by driving things. It's by understanding. By understanding, we realize happiness in the conventional world. And the happiness of the conventional world is dependent on or based on the happiness of the other dependent nature of happiness, which is not in the conventional world. So in the realm of other dependents, happiness doesn't exist or not exist. Happiness exists in a middle way. And we want to realize that happiness in the conventional world. Buddhas want that. And they understand happiness in the conventional world and they understand unhappiness in the conventional world. And out of the wish to help beings become happy and free of suffering, Buddhas give teachings. Why do Buddhas want that?

[86:12]

Pardon? Because there's not so much why. It's more like, what is a Buddha? A Buddha is simply nothing more than... Exactly, but you missed one point there. You missed a little point there. Buddha is seeing everything is empty with compassion. That's what Buddha is. That's what a Buddha is. Compassion is dependent? Yes. That's what a Buddha is. A Buddha is a dependent phenomena that understands emptiness, that realizes emptiness and has the essence of compassion. That's what a Buddha is. So they have no choice. That's their job. They just have to care about people and want them to be happy because if you take that part away, you don't have a Buddha. And if you put that part in, you do have a Buddha. So you have understanding of emptiness, put compassion in there, you've got a Buddha. So automatically, all they want to do is like

[87:16]

to help other people become free. There is no reason to become... Buddha doesn't act like that. I can understand that. Other, like, I don't know what... Oh, sentient beings. Sentient beings do not understand emptiness. And they have some compassion, but they don't understand emptiness. When you take... When you have... Are there phenomena which understand emptiness but prefer other phenomena, like compassion and being free of suffering? Are there phenomena that understand emptiness and prefer compassion? No, prefer... Prefer, for example, I don't know... No, no. Because in order to understand emptiness,

[88:17]

you have to become somewhat compassionate. The realization of emptiness arises from compassion in the first place. Buddhas are born... Timo is thinking about something else right now. No, no, no. I just wonder why the phenomena of compassion have some virtue, have some essence to it, which makes it realize its essence, the emptiness, while others being... Well, you could make a theory that compassion dependently co-arises and part of the conditions for it dependently co-arising is the interdependence of things. Because we're interdependent, because we're interdependent living beings, and planets are interdependent too, but when you have a living being that's interdependent and arises through the kindness of everything else, it naturally cares about all other beings and wants them to be happy.

[89:18]

So that's maybe the reason why we feel love and compassion. But you cannot destroy really anything. Pardon? You cannot really destroy anything. Well, I don't know, but... Just create other phenomena. I don't know where the destroyings come in, but I'm just saying, once there's compassion in the world, then there is, you know, the wish to alleviate suffering and it grows until there's a wish to alleviate suffering for others, and then there is the wish to realize wisdom. So the realization of emptiness grows out of compassion. So when the realization of emptiness, the full realization happens, it happens in the context of our having compassion at its root. So they're together, and that's a Buddha. There can be some understanding, there can be some wisdom without compassion, I think. But the Buddha's wisdom grows out of compassion,

[90:20]

and compassion, I think, grows out of our actual relationship. That's why they say we have Buddha nature, because our Buddha nature is how we're all interrelated and how we really do care about each other and help each other, and how we are already in harmony. That's the Sangha aspect of the Buddha. So this gives rise to wisdom, this actuality. And the wisdom is a dependent co-arising about understanding dependent co-arising and emptiness, and so on. That's the story for you today. Holly? Given the lack of own being in terms of production? Lack of characterlessness. Lack of own being in terms of character, yes.

[91:22]

Yes. Yes. Yes. You want me to say something about right intention? Well, I guess what comes to my mind is that if you currently feel a right intention, like you feel the intention to not be harmful, not be greedy, and you feel the intention to give up your attachment to impermanent things, if you feel that intention, I would say, I would say, hallelujah. And if you feel that intention, or don't feel that intention, I would say that if you would meditate on this teaching, that teaching will induce you into wanting those kinds of things.

[92:41]

Right intention will arise out of this meditation. But of course, you'd have to have some right intention in order to even consider listening to this teaching. So if you're willing to listen to this teaching and apply it to your life, moment by moment, you already have quite a bit of right intention. But if you didn't have too much, because that's what this teaching is for, people who don't have enough, you would get more. You'll get more right intention if you meditate on the other dependent character. And you start seeing how impermanent things are. When you start to see how impermanent things are, you start to have developed right intention. When you see how impermanent you are, you stop wanting to harm people. You stop trying to be possessive of things when you see how impermanent they are. You start to want to not be so attached to things when you see how impermanent they are. So this teaching will deeply, deeply encourage right intention.

[93:46]

And it's the beginning of developing right view or right understanding. It's the foundation of right understanding and it drives right intention, right livelihood, right speech, right...

[94:01]

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