Would you like to hear the rest of the story? So, Bodhidharma said to Bhakta, outside, breathe through all stories, and I would change it again to say, outside, breathe through all conceptual thought, breathe through all conceptuality, don't, you know, hold on to your concept of what's happening, it's an elaboration of the instruction. Outside, give all conceptuality of rest. Inside, there will be no constriction in the mind. With a mind like a wall, thus

[01:04]

you enter the way. So then, for seven years, Bhakta interacted with Bodhidharma, using probably conceptual thought, to talk to him and get feedback on how to give all stories rest. And then, after seven years, suddenly, Bhakta understood. Actually, there's one more detail of the story. After the instruction, it said that Hueyka studied with Bodhidharma about this story, but he failed to achieve merging or accord, and as often translated, he failed

[02:10]

to achieve the state, the state being the state of Buddhahood, which Bodhidharma is instructing him about. But it doesn't say the state, it says, failed to achieve agreement or accord, and then implied his accord with the state. But then, after seven years, he achieved accord with the state. And he went to Bodhidharma and said, the disciple has no involvements. The disciple is no longer caught up in conceptual thought. And then, Bodhidharma said, this isn't cessation, is it? Or, you know, this isn't nihilism, is it? Because

[03:13]

when you give up conceptual thought, it's pretty easy to slip into nihilism. So he said, you're not nihilistic now, are you? And he said, no. And Bodhidharma said, well, what is the state of the student? What is your state? And then Huika said, I'm always clearly aware and no words reach it. So, it's not like nothing's there, he's there, he's aware, but no words, no stories, no stories of how he is, reaches how he is. And Bodhidharma said, this is the essence of mind which all Buddhas care for, have no doubt. So that's

[04:15]

sort of getting into the deeper part of the story. Any questions about that? Yes? Hi, you have doubts? The senselessness? So because you see senselessness, you have doubt? Yeah, so senselessness is a story that you have. Well, it's not so much it's gripping, you're gripping. When you grip it, you're gripped. But stories aren't gripping, we just grip

[05:16]

them. And then we blame the stories for being gripping. But anyway, when we, pardon? I'm not saying dismiss it, I'm not saying dismiss it, I'm saying don't grasp it, it's not the

[06:27]

same as dismiss it. Well, you can say it grasps you, but then you're done for, then you're a sitting duck and situations are just going to run you like a machine. So if what you say is true, you're done for, forever you're going to be pushed around by circumstances for the rest of your life, they're going to grip you and move you all over the place, so that story is hopeless. You're not going to ever be free. But you can be free, if you care for other people, how can you be free? You may have to go through lots of doubts, that may be true, I'm not arguing with that, I'm just telling you how to be free, that's all. I'm not saying not to care about people, I'm saying if you care about people, if you want to help people, then you need to become free of attachment, that's all. We have love

[07:30]

stories, we care about the man in the store. If you care about him and you want to help him, then I'm saying become free of your attachment to him. If you care about me and you want to help me, become free of your attachment to me. I'm not saying dismiss me, I'm saying don't grasp me as being what you think I am. But most people do grasp people as being what they think they are. In other words, they are not open to wisdom. What do you say to a soldier who goes to battle and gets what is called the post-traumatic syndrome? Yes. Would you say that he's grasping? Show me this soldier and you'll see what I say. That's how I feel I came back from the post-traumatic syndrome. Yes. And I feel that it's like part of me being

[08:35]

in that sea and feeling the waves, and not pretending like I'm detached. I'm not pretending, I'm not saying pretending, but it feels like if I'm detached, it would be like cutting an arm. Yes. It just doesn't make sense to me. I mean, when you love somebody, you go through the sadness of it, through the pain of it, and you have to come out of it some other way. Yeah. What I'd like to know is what do you think is going to set people free? What do you think sets them free? I'm just talking about how to set people free. Do you have some other story? Tell it. For what? Just for freedom and happiness, that's all. That's enough for me. We're all going to die, but that's not the

[09:46]

whole story. We're going to suffer until we die. Yes. I don't know what freedom is in that sense. I have an idea. I have this rainbow country, or like the low, the deepest idea. Yeah, you have that. You have that. There it is. See? And what am I saying about that, Noreen? What am I saying about that? I'm saying, let go of that story. The nice story. Let go of the nice story. Let go of the rainbow story. Let go of that story. I'm saying, if you want to help people who are in that rainbow story become free of suffering in the rainbow story, you have to let go of the rainbow story. And if they're in a hell story, you have to let go of the hell story. I'm not saying pretend you're letting go. As a matter of fact, I would suggest, if you're

[10:50]

not letting go, that you don't pretend you're letting go. I would suggest that you just admit that you're holding on. And if you admit you're holding on, I've never met anybody who's holding on who's not suffering. So if you admit you're holding on, you're going to notice that you're suffering. And when you notice that holding on goes with suffering, you're starting to become wise. But fortunately, actually, people do the grasping of things. People grasp mountains. Mountains don't grasp people. People grasp each other. They don't get grasped by the other person. We grasp. The grasping is something we can become free of. And when we become free of suffering, we can help other people become free of suffering. But when people are grasping, they, generally speaking, fight each other. And when people are fighting, how can we enter into that situation

[11:54]

and show another way if we haven't learned it ourselves? So, if we're suffering, we should admit we're suffering. We should accept we're suffering. We should see the source of the suffering and let go of the source of suffering, which is holding to our story of what's going on. I'm not saying it's easy to learn this. I'm just saying, I think this is the way to become free of these stories and to help other people who are caught in similar stories. Some people have stories of having a nice house that's not getting bombed, and they hold to that story, but that makes them want to bomb somebody else's house. Whatever story you hold causes suffering to yourself and others. I understand that. People don't want to be told that their stories are just stories.

[13:33]

This is quite normal. And I'm saying that that way of being, that normal way of being, is the source of suffering. It's very common. People want their own stories to be considered true. That's the usual way. And now we have people in Iraq, in Washington, D.C., in Jerusalem, in Gaza Strip, all these people, not all these people, but many people in those places believe that their story of what's going on is true. And so we have war. We have war not between people who are open to their stories not being true. Open to not true does not mean false. It means open. Wisdom means open to ignorance. Ignorance is closed to ignorance. Ignorance is believing that ignorance is truth. So these people think their ignorance is truth, these people think their ignorance is truth, and

[14:38]

they meet and they fight. Because the other side is wrong. People who have different stories are wrong. Because my story is right, therefore yours must be wrong. This religion says this story, this religion says that story, and then these two religions say each other are wrong. So this one's evil from this one's point of view and vice versa. I don't have anything to do with these people. What I have is a defective life. It's not the school. I have a lot of school issues. I have people who work for the Nazis. And I asked them, did you see anybody dying peacefully? And they said it was very, very rare. Did you see somebody die peacefully? Most people are fighting and angry and are mean before they die. So that's what I mean. I mean, there is a part of me that is like, it's like all of a sudden I realize the senselessness of just living. I didn't sign this contract.

[15:38]

I feel like I'm just... And anyhow, so... You didn't sign what contract? ...of living this life, you know, standing by the people I love. All of a sudden I realize that I'm also going through a time where I'm kind of much more aware of my death. And it's like, what is this all about? So anyhow, I'm sorry. It's okay. No, no. I love you. You're great. You're great. Now, if you want to be a Buddha, let me know. I'll help you. Not to how to stop them from suffering. Like that lady. Why can't I free your doubtful mind and melt your cold, cold heart? You can't do it. Buddha can't come up and stop people's suffering. What Buddha does is Buddha gives teaching

[16:40]

to the people about how they can wake up. Then their suffering stops. But Buddha can't make your... God can't make your suffering stop. But if you listen to the teachings and you somehow, you can wake up. And then you can be in the middle of these difficult situations and you can bring something good to them. It doesn't mean they're not just like they are. It just means you understand that what you think they are and what I think they are doesn't actually reach them. And when we understand that, we can help. We want to help. There's plenty to help. How are we going to help? Well, we can help a little bit with our present condition, but we can help more when we become free of our own conceptuality. That's the hard work of wisdom is to open up to that maybe I don't understand what's happening.

[17:45]

And then listen to teachings about how things are happening. And see if they make you more skillful in meeting these deadly situations. I think they will. I think they'll help you and they'll help everybody. But it's hard to practice them when you're actually very upset. So then you have to be kind enough to yourself so that you can listen to the teachings. Yes? If you or somebody are in a state of despair, you may be too tense or distraught to listen.

[19:08]

You may feel like, I got enough problems. I can't, in my present state of pain, dare to open to the possibility that not only am I in pain, but I'm not wise. It's funny that a person suffering might not want to consider that they're not wise. I mean, obviously they're not because they're so depressed, but they feel like, I got enough depression. I don't need to also consider that I'm ignorant. Sometimes we have to open up when we're suffering in order to begin to open up when we're suffering. And then consider that maybe you don't know what's going on. And what are the teachings about what is going on? Well, one of the teachings about what's going on is that the way things are happening

[20:09]

is actually beyond our conception of how they're happening. However, we still do have a conception of how they're happening, and we naturally confuse our conception of what's happening with what's happening, and then we suffer. But we can't not have a conception of what's happening, because without a conception of what's happening, we don't have anything happening, we don't see anything, there's nothing appearing. So conception is part of our life, but we can also hear a teaching which says we confuse our conceptions with what's actually happening. So I have a conception of you, I have a conception of Diego, I have a conception of Red, I have a conception of Narit, but my conceptions of you do not reach you. You are there, but you're not reached by what I think of you. I'm starting to open up to the possibility that you are actually beyond what I think you are.

[21:14]

This is the beginning of wisdom practice. Try that. Yes? What place does faith have? Yeah. About faith? Well, the way I use faith is, what is your ultimate concern in life? That's what I would call your faith. No? So ultimate concern means, in the end, you know, like if you had one more moment to live, and you couldn't do anything more with this life, this is the ultimate, the end, finally, what is the most important thing at that moment, at such a moment?

[22:18]

What is it? What do you want? Most of all at that moment, what would it be? So that's your faith? That's your faith then? Pardon? Pardon? That's the most important to you. That's your faith. At this moment, that's what you're telling me your faith is. So then the question is, once you find your faith, and other people have other faiths, then what goes with that faith? What would be appropriate, what way of living would be appropriate with the faith you just told me about? Tell me. Why? Maybe it's too obvious. I thought you said that the most important thing at such a time is to be present. So then I say, well, what is in accord with what you say is most important? You're making it more complicated. Just being present would be in accord with that.

[23:24]

If you want to call that Zazen, you can, but that's derivative. It's just, in your case, it's quite simple. I think what would be appropriate to that would be to be present with what's happening. According to your faith. So there it is. Okay, if you're in despair, then I ask you, when you're in despair, what's most important to you at that time? And then what you come up with is your faith. Okay. She's looking someplace. You just said you know it's possible to be happy because other people have been happy.

[24:34]

So that's something you believe? You're kind of veering away. You're kind of veering away from where I am. I'm trying to stay with your story and you're veering away from it. Do you want to stay with it? Before you had being present. Now you're talking about believing that somebody else was happy. They do? Yeah, but if you start proliferating your faith, you might get a little confused. That's why I said ultimate. I'm asking you to choose one thing. Now faith can blossom into a whole forest of related ideas, but actually I think there's one thing, that's what I'm trying to get you to go to, one thing that really is what you most care about. That's really your faith. In other words, you may feel like being present is most important because you maybe think present is happiness.

[25:44]

Maybe you didn't tell me your faith. Maybe your real faith is you want to be happy. And maybe that's not really your faith. Maybe your faith is you want to be happy even when you're in despair. Maybe that's not really your faith. Maybe your faith is you want to be free. So that no matter what situation is there, you can be free and happy. In other words, you want to be a Buddha. Because Buddhas can go into any realm and be with any being and be happy and bring blessings. To beings in any realm. That amazing possibility is what we want. Now did somebody attain that? And yes, the Buddhist tradition says yes, someone did. Or am I just wanting something that's impossible? Well the Buddhist tradition says no, it's not impossible. Wonderful beings have said they attained such a state and they've demonstrated it quite nicely. They've been in difficult circumstances and they weren't afraid and they continue to be kind. And they continue to benefit people who are attacking them.

[26:46]

So there is stories about people being the way we probably would all like to be. And they are called enlightened ones. They love all beings. No matter what happens, they come back with love. They also demonstrate non-attachment. There's a consistency in this. If I want to be like that, which I do, that's my faith. It's not so much that I believe there really was a Buddha or really is a Buddha. It's almost like I hope there's a Buddha, I hope there was a Buddha, but really I don't care. I want to be that way even if there isn't such a thing. I want to learn how I have a taste that loving one person is good, that loving two is better, that having no fear of the third is better, that opening up and being willing to live with all beings so that no matter who comes, I can embrace them. I have a taste that that's what I want.

[27:50]

When I hear that, I say yes. I don't say no. When I hear about myself or other people closing to someone, I don't say yes. I say no, I don't want to be closed. When I hear about being open, I don't say no, I say yes. Before I came to Zen Center, when I experienced closing people off, I said no, I said I don't want to be that way. I'm ashamed to be closed to suffering people, to people who are being cruel to each other, who are confused and intoxicated and don't even know where they are and they're just striking out in fear and hatred and confusion. I don't like to say no to those people and try to get away from those people, but I did. I don't want to be that way. So I came to the Zen path to learn to be free of my defending myself against beings, which is quite natural. And after a few years of practice, I've made some deepening into the way I want to be.

[28:56]

I'm a little bit more open to beings. I can't say yet that I'm completely open to all beings, but a little bit more. At this rate, things are going by so fast that it won't be long before I'm completely open. But that's what I wanted. That's what I thought would be best. And I haven't really changed my mind at all since the beginning. But, you know, I've got a lot of old bad habits to live with. Yes? Okay, here's my question. How is the story you just told any better than the one you told? I'm not saying it's better. Well, I'm just wondering what you're talking about. The story Narit told is not the story she wants. I just told a story of what I want. She didn't tell a story about what she wanted. She told a story that she thinks is true, and she hates the story.

[30:00]

She doesn't want the story to be true. She just thinks it is. Pardon? I did. And if I'm grasping my story, what do I say to me? If I'm grasping my story, what do I say to me? I say, let go of it. Yeah, sure, that's what you do. I let go of my story too. If I have a story of what I want, I should definitely let go of it. Because the story of what I want, if I hold to it, it will backfire. I will destroy what I want if I grasp it. Now, if you don't like something and you hold to it, you won't destroy it. It'll grow. If you hate some situation and you grasp it, it will flourish. Flowers fall when you attach to them. My story of the flowering of compassion, if I attach to that, the flower will fall. The stories of hatred and trauma and cruelty, if you fight them, they will grow.

[31:03]

Evil grows when you fight it. And good dies when you grasp it. Whatever story, if you grasp it, there will be harm. Whatever story, if you let go of it, there will be benefit. Attachment is the basic evil. Pardon? Am I over the story? I didn't say I was holding on to it, you said it. I said I was asking the question, I'm not holding on to the story. I never knew the answer to the question. From the beginning, I've just been wondering. And I'm still wondering. I'm wondering. I'm just wondering. I'm not saying it's true that I am helping people. I'm not, honest. And I'm not saying it's false that I'm helping people.

[32:05]

I'm wondering. Am I here? I'm not saying I am helping people. I'm not even, I'm just asking, are you here to help people? Yes, but I'm not holding to it. I don't know. Pardon? I ask that question too, don't you? I did too. I did too. I said, I did too say that. I said, consider, you know, wonder. Wonder if perhaps you're being selfish. No, I said, wonder if perhaps you're completely wacko. Do you remember that? Wonder if you're a little bit wacko. Remember that? Wonder if you're completely wacko. Wonder if you're a little bit off. Just a second, did you hear that part? Wonder if you're a little bit off.

[33:07]

I know, and I said, wonder if you're completely off. You're talking to an attorney. You're definitely. I am a lawyer. I am a lawyer, a professional lawyer, and that's a story. Okay? That's a story. I agree with the story. You got the story, I'm a lawyer. I got the story, I'm a lawyer. I'm a lawyer. I am a lawyer. I'm dealing with the law here. This is the law. The law of the Buddha is attachment is suffering. That's the law. Is that a story? Is that a story? Yes. Is the law a story? Yes. Not really, but what I say about it is a story about it. So I'm telling you stories of the law of reality. That's what I'm telling you. So I'm a lawyer. Okay? But I'm the lawyer who says, let go of your stories. That's another story about the law. Let go of your stories about the law. Let go of your stories about what is true.

[34:09]

Let go of the stories. And anybody who wants to debate about this, we can debate. But I said, if you want to understand, wonder. Wonder. Wonder if you're a little off. Wonder if you're a little selfish. Or wonder if you're super selfish and way off. Wonder. Open up to the possibility that you are as selfish as anybody. Open to that possibility that you are as selfish as anybody. That will help you understand. But some people say, I refuse. I'm not going to open to the possibility that I'm as selfish as anybody. There must be somebody who is more selfish than me. I refuse. I have a question. How do you let go? How do you let go? By practicing letting go. And in the process of practicing letting go, most people, especially if they practice in a community,

[35:10]

will become aware that they're not letting go. Now some people think, I'm letting go. And then people say, okay, well let me do this then. Wait a minute. No, no. Not that. Not that. That's too much. They say, okay, do you think you're letting go now? And you say, well, I guess you're right. I'm not. Most people can be... If you dedicate yourself to letting go, believing that you're right, if you let go, if you try to do that, the beginning of that practice, and the middle of that practice, which is a long time, will be noticing that you're not letting go. But noticing that you're not letting go, and admitting it, is part of the process of letting go. So we have a lot of noticing that we're clinging to our ideas ahead of us. But if you can notice that you're clinging, you have a chance to notice that your suffering arises from clinging. Your suffering does not arise from letting go of your thoughts.

[36:11]

Your suffering doesn't arise from letting your ideas rest. However, your suffering will arise from holding to your ideas or denying your ideas. Denying your ideas is just the mere image of holding them. Dismissing people is the mere image of holding on to them tightly. Being with them, and breathing with them, and finding this way of being, where you're not sticking to people, this is the way to enter. And that includes noticing and being open to that you might be selfish, right now, and yesterday, and maybe tomorrow. So opening to that is part of what it means open to wisdom. Sound good? Sound difficult? It is difficult. But, I'm here to say it's normal that it's difficult.

[37:13]

We've got a lot of work to do. But can you be joyful about this? Knowing that it might be very helpful. Bernard? You notice that when you don't know you're holding on, Yeah. Did you hear what he said? When he doesn't notice he's holding on, then he blames other people for holding on, and other things. When you notice that you're holding on, you tend not to blame other people so much. Because, you know, Buddhism is not about noticing other people's faults. It's about noticing your own. So it's about me noticing my own holding, my own selfishness, my own lack of complete understanding. And I've got plenty to look at. And, I believe in looking at it.

[38:16]

And getting used to looking at it. Which means getting used to noticing my own shortcomings, and being open to my own lack of complete perfect understanding. That's part of developing perfect understanding. Does that make sense? Yes? Yeah. I think I can sometimes recognize stories, and, you know, how that's the life thing, and there are lots of different stories out there, but I also feel like, well, you know, to guide your life, you sort of have to, at some point, pay attention to the stories and the concepts to make decisions. Yeah, so you've got a story. I'm looking at a story now like, kind of like a forest or a jungle. Okay? Like you've got a forest of people. A forest, it's like a story here, of all you people here.

[39:18]

And you could be like, some of you could be more active than you are, you know, jumping up and down, or some of you could be praising me, some of you could be blaming me, some of you could be criticizing me. So that's what I see, that's appearing to me. Breathing through the story means, I go into the forest with you, I meet you, but I don't stick to you. I dance with you, I don't stick with you. So when you're dancing with somebody, if you stick to them, it doesn't work. And if you get unstuck with them and ignore them, it doesn't work. So breathing means you go through, among all the circumstances, in a related way. And when you come into one place that's narrow, the air speeds up. And when it gets more space, it slows down. You function in relationship to everything. That's what I mean by breathing through. Same way. You don't stick to them. Let's say you have a story that you're like a below average person. Don't stick to it.

[40:20]

The next day you have a story that you're above average person. Don't stick to it. Just listen to it. And notice also that when the breath moves into the story of being below average and it gets stuck there, notice that that is painful. Notice that it's painful. Notice when it sticks to that you're better than other people, notice how that's painful. Notice that when it sticks to that you're average, how that's painful. There's no story which if you stick to will not be affliction. Because stick to means not just that you listen to the story, it means you think it's true. And when you think your stories are true, when you say, well, how can I not be stuck to it? It's true. I'm not saying that there's no truth there. I'm just saying your story of it is not true. So, I have a story that such and such is horrible. That's a story.

[41:22]

I'm not saying that's not true. I'm just saying to think it's true is the source of suffering. Because to say it's not true is sticking to it on the other side. Without grasping it as true or false, meet it and interact with it without getting stuck. And in that dance, I'm saying, you enter the way. Is it difficult to learn this dance? Yes. Because we have such a strong habit of coming to things and grasping them as good or bad, true or false. How are we going to learn to be free of that? Start by admitting that although you've heard this teaching, you're not practicing this teaching. What you're practicing is grasping your ideas of yourself. Like, I did really well. Grasp it. I did really poorly. Grasp it. You did do poorly. You did do well. That's true. But your idea that you did poorly

[42:24]

and your idea that you did bad is what you're grasping. And that's not what you did. But grasping it as what's happening is a source of affliction. And you can verify that. And then you can see, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm actually hurting me and everybody around me by grasping to my ideas of what's happening. Then you start to soften and open to the possibility of not grasping. And not grasping can arise through quite a bit of work of admitting that there has been grasping and noticing that suffering arises from it and unskillfulness arises from it and cruelty arises from it. You see that over and over. And as you see it, you change. You become a different person. And that different person, suddenly, one day, a thought arises, an idea of what he is or what she is arises, and she just looks at it and laughs. Not laugh like it's not true. Not laugh like it is true. But laugh like I get it. It's just an idea. And I'm not falling for it this time.

[43:25]

And I'm free. And it's possible. And I... Yeah, this is what I want! And then they can cart you. They being all the circumstances can cart you into this hell and that hell and this heaven and you don't fall for it and you can demonstrate Buddha's wisdom in whatever realm you're in. This is what you want, right? But the price of admission is non-attachment. Is not believing your story as reality. And understanding your story and my story and everybody's stories are just stories and we need them, but they're just stories. And you can use them, but they're just stories. And if you use them and know they're stories, you can use them and not cause suffering by believing that they're more than stories.

[44:26]

It isn't that you cause suffering, it's your belief that your stories are true that causes the suffering. You're just a nice person who happens to be susceptible to believing her stories. And believing the story is the bad thing. We can stop. We can stop believing the stories. Like the story, what is it? That Woody Allen story I tell over and over. The guy goes to see a psychiatrist, he tells the psychiatrist, my brother thinks he's a chicken. My grandson thinks he's married to a dog. Why don't you tell him he's not a chicken? I need the eggs. So we need the eggs. We have to tell stories, otherwise we don't get eggs. But you can, you know, go along with the story and know it's a story and still get your eggs. But we tend to start believing

[45:28]

that our brother's a chicken. Or our brother believes that he's a chicken in order to get us the eggs. This part is optional. The belief is optional. That you can get over. And when you get over it, the suffering becomes alleviated and the unhindered compassion becomes realized. Yes? You tend to hide? But you're not doing it now. Okay. Okay. Okay. This isn't an excuse for being a chicken? Okay. Alright. Okay.

[46:28]

You're doing good. Keep it up. Yes? Yes? Yes. Okay. Thank you so much.

[48:06]

Why don't you just tell me what your hopes are? I hear your hopes. And I heard your hopes and then I thought, well, am I in touch with my pain? Yeah, I think I can feel it. It's, you know, it's right here over here in the body. I got pain. Maybe as much as some of you, I'm feeling it. You feel like I'm not in touch with my pain. And I'm telling you, I'm checking it out and I think I am in touch with it, but, you know, it's just a story. You might be right, but I might be only in touch with about 2% of it. Well, you're doing fine. I, you know, I can barely go on, but I do. And pretty soon,

[49:13]

pretty soon, I hear you say I'm off and I'm trying not to, and I'm trying, pardon? Oh, okay. I hear that you say something's a little off and so I might ask you, what is it that's off, what do you think? What is it that you think is off? Okay. Sweet. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. I really don't know. I guess it's just sitting there waiting to be recognized. Just saying, would you please acknowledge us 98%? No, I think, you know, just keep inviting.

[50:14]

We have quite a bit of interest over here, yes. I don't know who to call on first. Yes. Okay. What does sophomoric mean, by the way? Okay. Anyway, you've got a question. You were talking to him about race, and he was taking the cognitive side of the class and taking some of the physical. And he was saying, well, now I understand everything to do with synapses and neurons and chemicals and all my emotions and all your emotions and it's all a chemical thing. And basically, he said we're not all human beings. He doesn't mean that. He just said, you know, what's the difference between me and you? I mean, your job is to see whatever's happening.

[51:18]

Yeah. Good example. If I get drunk every night or if I don't go to my classes as I should, he doesn't seem like a smart-ass. No. He's basically saying he thinks he has some beliefs but he couldn't find it. Yeah. And I felt, what makes you think that I know there must be a path in or even not in I've been doing this since I was a kid and I always look and I have these observations that I can't talk about. What I said earlier in the story of Bodhidharma, I said when you first start to transcend form, when you first transcend conception or conceptuality, it's easy to let lapse into nihilism. So he had some concept of what he is and his studies have shown him that he's kind of transcended what he thought he was. And at that point, he's gone too deeply

[52:19]

into selflessness because if you go so far that you lose track of your ethical commitment, you've gone too deep. So what he needs to do is actually come back more to the surface and reaffirm actually that there is something there. So what we do in a case like that is to try to, for example, tell him that although in some sense we're just synapses and so on, still there is mind and mind is an emergent thing. Mind is not the same as the synapses and the brain. Mind is an emergent thing. It's based on a body but it's not actually a physical phenomenon. And there's science for that too. So that gives maybe some more something that there's something there. So when what you had before is refuted, you may flip into that there's nothing and then what doesn't even matter? That's nihilism. So he needs to back, somehow he needs help to back up

[53:19]

from that there's nothing back towards that there's something and maybe not go all the way over but come back to more. It's not that there's not something. Religion is not about how there's nothing. Religion's about how there's not nothing. Religion isn't about how there is something or about how there is nothing. Religion is about how there is not nothing. Because if you say there is not something, then people flip into that there's nothing. But really there's not nothing. But then don't flip to there is something. So there's not something and there's not nothing. That's the middle way. But as part of finding the middle way, we have to overthrow some of our beliefs and if we flip too far, we lose track of our base

[54:20]

and then we've gone too deep. We need to be able to continue to be committed to ethics while we start to question and be open to that our understanding of ethics might not be right. But if you open to that your understanding of ethics is not right and you open so far that you say ethics don't matter, you've opened too much. Then you have to close up a little bit and say, okay, now wait a minute. Go back and make your commitment again to the more ethical precepts. And when you feel solidly grounded in them and really wholeheartedly committed to practice ethics, then again you can open to wisdom. So, yeah, so we, this is, he's really getting into a religious thing there. Yes? No, I don't think so much.

[55:23]

I don't like that overcome ego. I'd like to understand the ego. Yeah. If you understand it, you'll become free of it. I missed that last part. Maybe a way to... Yes? Yeah, maybe. But we usually end at quarter of one

[56:23]

and according to this watch it's quarter to one. Which is also sometimes called twelve forty five. So shall we stop and... Huh? It's just a story. Yeah, right. According to that story should we kind of like relax with it and stop? Anyway, I love you people. You're great. That's a story. Yeah.

[56:58]

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