In morning service today, did you start the chanting of Catarata? The translation we're reciting is from Tibetan, and we also have two translations from Chinese, the original was Sanskrit, the Tibetan translation is called the Questions of Maitreya, the Bodhisattva Maitreya. The Chinese chapters are translated as Analysis of Centering, or Analysis of Yoga, and in

[01:01]

the text that we translated this morning, the Bodhisattva Maitreya asked the Bhagavan, Bhagavan abiding in what and depending on what, do Bodhisattvas in the great vehicle cultivate Samatha and Vipassana, tranquility and insight, and this translation said, Maitreya abiding in and depending upon an unwavering resolution to expound the doctrinal teachings and to become unsurpassably, perfectly enlightened, do Bodhisattvas cultivate Samatha and Vipassana.

[02:08]

This translation is emphasizing that the Bodhisattvas depend on and abide in this unwavering resolution to expound, to teach the doctrinal teachings and to attain supreme perfect awakening. A lot of people who I meet who are practicing, who are devoting their life to the practice of the Buddha way, even the practice of Mahayana, sometimes say, well I don't think I'm going to really be teaching this stuff. But this says that the Bodhisattvas who practice this yoga practice, this Bodhisattva yoga practice,

[03:23]

have an unwavering resolution to expound the regular doctrinal teachings like this sutra. This is related to the third of the four vows that we often chant, the Dharma gates, a boundless eye-bow to enter them. Enter, it makes sense that you would enter a gate. And enter is often used for the deepest understanding of something. The actual original Chinese says more like understand or master, but enter is good too. It means that you would understand and actually enter into and become the teachings. So part of the Bodhisattva vow is that you're, these great vows anyway, is that you're actually vowing to learn all the teachings and enter deeply into understanding them and teaching them.

[04:31]

And so I guess we can all consider whether we really want to do that. The other, the Chinese translations are close, closely related, but quite different, because they say that, they ask, you know, what's abiding in and depending on water? You know, what's the support and the station of the Bodhisattvas who do this practice? And they say that they're supported, and their station is in the conventional teachings, the conventional expositions of the teachings, and the commitment to supreme awakening. So it's more like saying they're supported by the teachings, and supported by the commitment to attain supreme awakening. It doesn't say that they're supported by the commitment to both teach the teachings and attain enlightenment.

[05:46]

Is that clear? The first one says they're supported by the commitment, the determination, the resolution, to teach these teachings, and it also says expound, there's many ways to teach them. You could teach these teachings in the giving Dharma talks, or you could teach these teachings by working in the kitchen. But the point is, you understand that as you're working in the kitchen, that you're teaching the Samadhi Nirmocana Sutra, you're teaching the Lotus Sutra, you're teaching the Heart Sutra, you're teaching the Middle Link Discourses of the Buddha, when you're working in the fields, you understand that what you're doing is expounding these teachings, and you understand how what you're doing is expounding these teachings, and if anybody asks you any questions, you can show them, like hand them a shovel, or give them a seven-hour Dharma talk, or do a dance.

[06:53]

You can expound it in many ways, but the point is that you are expounding it. The other one says, no, we depend on these teachings, we depend on these teachings and we depend on the commitment to awakening. So there's a little bit different emphasis in the two translations, the different Chinese and the Tibetan. But either way there's a problem. In one case you're going to teach these teachings, the other way is these teachings are going to be your support and your stance, you're going to stand in these teachings, and in one case you're not just going to stand in them, you're going to expound them. So in both cases you're getting intimate with all the teachings, all the conventional expositions, and one translation says all the provisional setups.

[07:58]

And then Maitreya says, the Bhagavan has taught that there are four objects of observation, of Samatha and Vipassana. One, conceptual images, two, non-conceptual images, three, the limits of phenomena, and four, the accomplishment of purpose. Bhagavan, how many of these objects are observation for Samatha, for tranquility? And the Buddha says, one, the non-conceptual images.

[09:04]

And then, how many are objects of observation for Vipassana? And the Buddha replies, only one, conceptual images. How many are objects of observation for both, Samatha and Vipassana? There are two, the limits of phenomena and the accomplishment of the purpose. The limits of phenomena means all phenomena, both conventional and ultimate. So all compounded things, all conventionalities and all ultimates, namely emptiness. So Samatha and Vipassana observe all phenomena, both conventional and ultimate, and Samatha and Vipassana observe,

[10:12]

they actually observe the accomplishment of the purpose, they observe the accomplishment of awakening. Thank you. Maitreya then asks, how do Bodhisattvas seek Samatha and become skilled in Vipassana? How do they seek tranquility, and how do they become skilled in Vipassana insight? And then the Buddhist says, I've set forth all these teachings, twelve different sections of teachings, and then Bodhisattvas hear well, comprehend well,

[11:16]

repeat well, analyze well with their minds, and through insight fully realize all these different teachings. And then, remaining in seclusion and having genuinely settled their minds inwardly, they mentally attend to those doctrines just as they have been contemplated. So they listen to these teachings, and then they settle down, and then they contemplate these teachings in accord with the way that they've understood them. And then, so in a sense you can say, well, what they do is they meditate on the teachings, like for example the teachings of this chapter, and then they settle down,

[12:16]

and then they meditate on the teachings. The settling down is tranquility, and the meditation on the teachings is the Vipassana. And then, what happens next is, I think is that now the Buddha gives more detailed instructions about how to practice tranquility. He says, with continuous mental attention, they mentally attend to that mind which is mentally contemplated by any mind. So that's the basic instruction. Mentally attend... Excuse me. With continuous mental attention, mentally attend to that mind which is contemplated by any mind. That's the basic instruction.

[13:21]

With continuous mental attention, contemplate that mind which is contemplated by any mind. Sure. I'll say some of the other translations might help. In continuity, in the continuity, in the continuity of their inner minds, they focus and reflect. Checking in to the continuity of their inner minds, they focus and reflect. And repeatedly abide in this correct practice of, in the continuity of their inner minds, they focus and reflect. And one more translation.

[14:22]

They attentively meditate on the inner stream. They attentively meditate on the inner stream of the meditating consciousness. I'll go back to this, but I just want to finish the paragraph by saying, with continuous mental attention, they mentally attend, they mentally attend to that mind which is contemplated by all minds. The mental and physical pliancy that arises through engaging in this practice of mentally attending to the mind which is contemplated by any mind, by engaging in this practice, in this way,

[15:25]

and continuing in this practice, is shamatha. The mental and physical pliancy that arises is shamatha. So the shamatha is the mental and physical pliancy that arises from continuously contemplating the mind which is contemplated by any mind. So the continuous mental attention to contemplating the mind which is contemplated by any mind, the continuous mental attention to the mind which is contemplated by any mind gives rise to a state of pliancy, physical and mental, the state of pliancy is called shamatha. The sutra doesn't say so, but you could call this continuous mental attention to the

[16:30]

mind which is contemplated by any mind, you could call that shamatha training, or tranquility training. Tranquility is actually the state that arises, the state of pliancy that arises. I think it might be good to just describe the state of shamatha a little bit more before I go into the basic practice. So the pliancy or the ease of body and mind that arises from continuously engaging in this

[17:31]

practice in the correct way is called in Sanskrit praśrābdhi, pliancy, flexibility, ease. And this is, you know, in early Abhidharma and later Abhidharma, it's one of the ten virtuous mental factors, and it refers to the fitness for action that freely applies full energy of body and mind towards all good purposes. It's a state of fitness for action that can freely be applied to any kind of wholesome activity. This ease comes from relaxing, and it removes all obstacles, it actually says this ease

[18:42]

comes from relaxing rigidity, but I think that's somewhat redundant. But, we can leave the rigidity in, what kind of rigidity does it come from relaxing? It comes from relaxing the rigid adherence to contemplating conceptual objects. We are rigidly habituated to pay attention to objects. This meditation is asking us to relax with that, and now pay attention not to objects of mind, but to mind. Asanga says, pliancy is supreme happiness and joy that is preceded by faith and clarity. What's the faith in this case?

[19:45]

The faith is the faith that it would be a good idea to practice continuous mental attention to attending to the mind which is contemplated by any mind. It's faith that it would be good to meditate on the inner stream of the meditating consciousness with continuously, and being clear about this instruction gives rise to this pliancy according to Asanga. Gradually making the mind joyful, pliancy eliminates non-virtuous class of errant tendencies. And then I was thinking that prashrabdhi is a temporary relief from the afflictive influences

[20:53]

of alaya. It's a temporary relief from our rigid predisposition towards conventional designation, which, to implement this predisposition towards conventional designation, we need to use discursive thought, so it is relaxing with our discursive thought. Another definition of prashrabdhi besides ease, or explanation I should say, is freedom from subconscious conditions. So in a sense, this kind of training of attending to the mind which is contemplated by any mind temporarily freezes from the subconscious content of alaya. Once again, I just wanted to say, the basic definition of the object of contemplation

[22:05]

for Samatha is a non-conceptual image. Another way to say it is, an object not accompanied by images for reflection, or an object, or And so now, what is the mind that is contemplated by any mind? What is this inner stream of the meditating consciousness?

[23:08]

And maybe I'll just say right away, this question that has been looming for a week or so, is this inner stream of the meditating consciousness, is this mind which is contemplated by any mind, is that alaya? And it's also, by the way, this is also called the uninterrupted mind. So Samatha sometimes said to be mental attention to the uninterrupted mind. Is that alaya? Well, alaya is an uninterrupted mind, but it is actually interrupted by death, and it also is interrupted by the attainment of certain levels of awakening. But it also says, that mind which is contemplated by any mind, and so, what mind is contemplated

[24:36]

by any mind? Well, alaya is one of the minds that you could contemplate, but you can also contemplate the mind, the consciousness which is called manas, or which is called the mind organ. You can also contemplate mind consciousness. All three of these, mind, thought, and intellect, are actually consciousnesses, are actually minds, and all three of them are actually called transformations of mind. So mind is all three, is each of them, it's all of them and each of them. So that's why I think it's not really that when we're practicing tranquility that we're actually meditating on alaya. The inner stream of the meditating mind includes and relates to alaya, but I think we're looking

[25:37]

at something, a kind of cognition that's even less graspable than alaya might be. Now, as you know, some people practice tranquility by following or counting the breath, and that's not mentioned here. The second ancestor in our lineage in Japan, named Kōen Eijo Daishō, he wrote a text

[26:40]

once called, Absorption in the Treasury of Light, I like to say, Absorption in the Womb of Light, and in there he says, trust everything to inhalation and exhalation, trust everything to breathing in and breathing out, and then leap into the womb of light and don't look back. Leaping into the womb of light today, I would suggest, is meditating on the inner stream of the meditating consciousness.

[27:41]

Trusting everything to the inhalation and exhalation, in other words, perhaps following your inhalation and exhalation, putting all your attention on that, approaches being with the inhalation and exhalation with no conceptual reflection. Not even, this is an inhalation or exhalation, you might start that way, but trusting everything just to the inhalation and exhalation, approaches being with the inhalation and exhalation without any objects for reflection of that. In that way, you're starting to actually look at the mind, the mind, not the reflections

[29:00]

but the mind itself. What mind? The uninterrupted mind. The mind is uninterrupted by all the transformations into mind, consciousness, and intellect. The mind is transformed into alaya, manas, and mano vijnana. It's transformed into sense consciousnesses. There's an uninterrupted mind, an inner mind that's uninterrupted. And then he says, after you leap into the womb of light, don't look back, in other words, continuously attend to this womb of light. This womb of light, as an object of contemplation for tranquility, has no conceptual images to reflect upon what it is or where it is. So you're looking at something, it's right in front of you, it's right inside you, deep

[30:07]

inside you, that has no way for you to... when you're not using any way to find it or know what it is. Continuous mental attention to the continuity of the inner mind, the continuity of the inner uninterrupted mind. Dogen Zenji says,

[31:31]

Learn the backward step which turns the light around and shines it back. Same instruction. Turn the light around and shine it back on the mind which is contemplated by any mind. Shine the light back on the light and contemplate that light. A light which you cannot, with no image, without using any image to make meaning of what the light is. So, one more example of this, which I've worked with for a long time, is Yangshan meeting

[32:37]

a monk, and asking the monk where he's from, and the monk tells him, and he asks the monk if he thinks about that place where he's from, and he says, yes I do. That would be like, if you were from England, I would say, where are you from? He'd say, England. I'd say, do you think of that place? And he'd say, yes. In other words, do you think of England? You know, with the English people, and hillsides, and the trains, and etc. Think of those things. And Yangshan said, therein, when you think of where you're from, there's all this stuff. Hillsides, and people, and animals, and buildings, and all those things. And then he says to the monk, reverse your thinking. Think of the mind that thinks.

[33:39]

Or in the Chinese character, I find illuminating, he's saying, actually, think of the ability to think. And the Chinese character is a component, has a marker which means able or active with thinking. And that goes with the passive marker in thinking. There's the ability to think of, and there's that which is thought of. What's thought of is England, United States, Argentina. What's thought of is people, and animals, and birth and death. But the ability to think. Mind has the ability to think. Think of that which can think. The uninterrupted mind that can think. Think of that. And then he says to the monk, who we don't know how long he did that meditation,

[34:49]

but he says, are there lots of things there? And he says, when I get here, there's nothing at all. When you look at the ability to think, you don't see anything. This is the light. When you look at the mind, which is contemplated by any mind, you don't find anything. You don't even have something which will tell you that that's what it is. This is a non-conceptual image. Continuously attending to this non-conceptual image, this inner stream of the meditating consciousness comes to fruit as the state of mental and physical pliancy.

[35:51]

My experience is that making the transition from looking at objects and thinking about them or even trying to focus on them and try to concentrate on them to this practice of tranquility is potentially nauseating because we're not used to looking for how attending to how to attend without any way to reflect on what we're attending to. Or to look for a mind, not just any old mind, but a mind that's contemplated by any mind. A mind, one translation is the uninterrupted mind, it means the mind that's uninterrupted by images. Or you could say uninterrupted or undisturbed or unhassled by images. Look at the mind that no word gets at.

[36:59]

And again, this is like, you can feel kind of seasick here because any way you get a footing in this meditation, you're slipping away from it into a conceptual image about. So again, the actual object you're meditating on is a concept, but there's no way, no conceptual access to the concept. It's an image, it's a non-conceptual image, it's a non-conceptual concept. It's a mind. And it's uninterrupted mind, and you can think of that, it goes on, but it doesn't go on. So uninterrupted doesn't mean it lasts, it means it's not interrupted by images. Nothing can interrupt this mind.

[38:03]

However, this mind can be transformed in basically three ways, which we've been studying. Now we're looking at what mind, which can be transformed into things that can be reached by images, what's the mind that's always there through all these transformations, and which no image interrupts. That's the mind the Sutra's suggesting to pay attention to. One time Dogen Zenji was talking to his teacher, Ru Jing, and Ru Jing said something, was talking to him about

[39:05]

the practice of the Buddhas and ancestors, is to sit in the middle of the world of suffering of all beings, and by sitting in the middle of this world with all beings suffering, and listening to the cries of the world, there's the birth of what he called in Japanese, Nyushin, or Joshin, which means supple or soft mind, or meekness of mind. And what is that? And Dogen says, what is that supple mind? And Ru Jing said, it's the will, I would say, or the willingness, the willingness for body and mind to drop off. It's openness to the dropping off of body and mind.

[40:13]

That's another way, I think, that's being suggested here. To contemplate the inner stream, the undisturbed inner stream, inner life, of the meditating mind. Opening to that, you're opening to body and mind dropping off. Opening to that, you're opening to the light turning around, or opening to, or being willing to let the light turn around and shine back on the mind itself. And do you find many things here? The monk says, when I get here, I don't find anything at all. And Yangshan says to the monk,

[41:20]

this is good for the stage of faith. In other words, like Asanga said, you have faithfully done the practice of tranquility, and by the practice of tranquility, you've entered into the mind, which doesn't find anything. Or rather, you're entering into looking at the mind, and by looking at the mind, you don't find anything. But there's more to practice than this. And the next part is the practice of insight, where you're going to now start using conceptual images again. Dogen Zenji says, when you learn this backward step... Could you give me the sutra book, your sutra book there? When you learn this backward step and shine the light back...

[42:23]

Yeah, that's good, thanks. Your original face will manifest. Learn the backward step that turns your light inwardly, and this translation says, to illuminate yourself. Body and mind themselves will drop away, and your original face will manifest. What's your original face? What's your face? It's a face which dispenses with any image of your face. It's a face which dispenses with any image of your face

[43:25]

that you could use to carry meaning about what your face is. That's your original face. Training in this tranquility of this sutra, this Mahayana sutra, this is Mahayana Samatha, is to open to your face without any image by which you could understand your face. Learning the backward step, this face manifests. One more early one, early teaching from the Buddha, train yourself thus. In the scene, there will be just the scene.

[44:27]

So you look at the floor, and that's it. That's it. You give up any kind of way to reflect on what the floor is. In the heard, there's just the heard. In the tasted, there's just the tasted. In the touched, there's just the touched. In the smelled, there's just the smelled. In any image, in any image, there's just the image. You're looking at an image with no way to conceptually reflect on it. This is the same as looking at the mind, which is contemplated by any mind. If you could look at a color, and in the colors there's just a color,

[45:37]

then you may be able to tolerate looking at the mind, which is just the mind. It's always the mind. And then the Buddha says, when you are able, when that's the way it is for you, that in the scene there's just the scene, and in the heard there's just the heard, he doesn't say this quite, but he just about says, your original face will manifest. What he actually says is you won't identify with it. You won't say, that's my face or that's not my face. You'll give up any conceptual way to know which face is yours. And one more thing to start, just to say,

[46:43]

this is opening to unconstructedness. Unconstructedness and stillness. That took a long time. So do you have any, did I relate to your question enough? Or do you want more about this? Yeah, I mean, the other translation was clear, and I don't know if it's... It's the way everybody thinks, although it seems to take special attention to practice this way. Well, this text is saying that what you're contemplating is mind.

[47:49]

The mind is generated in such a way that it has objects, but the objects are not different from mind. It's just that mind is generated in such a way that its objects look different from itself. But in all those generations, you know, of all those different objects, which are mind, you're always contemplating mind. It appears in different ways. It even appears as different mental phenomena. It appears as physical phenomena. It even appears as types of consciousness. You think, like you can say, this is a good state of mind. This is a difficult state of mind.

[48:51]

But no matter what state of mind there is that the mind is aware of, you're always contemplating the same mind. But that mind cannot be got at by good mind, bad mind, so on. You're actually looking at it, but you're talking about it as good mind, bad mind, various colors, good and bad things. But it's really the same mind all the time, in a given moment. That mind is always what you're looking at. But it can be transformed in these different ways. But the different transformations, you're not always looking at those. You're only looking at this transformation right now. But what's the mind that's always being contemplated? What's the inner stream, the inner life of the mind? What's the light of the mind? What's the mind that's dropped off? What mind is that?

[49:55]

What's the unconstructed mind? And, as the monk said, when I get there I don't see anything at all. So another way to look at it is, you're looking at the mind such that when you look at that you don't find anything. And being able to continuously attend to not being able to find anything is how it might feel or seem when you're looking backwards at the mind. You can't find people or horses, and you also can't find the mind. But that's what it's like to look at the mind which is always being contemplated. And that's the tranquility practice of this scripture.

[50:58]

Fortunately, it gives rise to prashrabdhi, which is the actual state of tranquility. The original face manifests. Sounds pretty good. Body and mind drop away. Sounds great, but that's not the end of the path. Now we are ready to practice insight. Because in this realm that we're cultivating, there's no teaching. We've used the teaching on Samatha to enter a realm of light. To contemplate the inner stream of the meditating consciousness. To open to the unconstructedness and stillness. To open to the mystery of dependent co-arising.

[52:10]

Not the dependent co-arising which we have conceptual images of to reflect on and talk about. We've relaxed with that. And if we practice this way, we have a good state of mind now to turn around and now start looking at conceptual images. Because part of what the Bodhisattva is interested in, which the translation from Tibetan makes clear, is to expound the teachings. However, in order to expound the teachings, we have to eliminate any signs of substantial existence from the teaching, so that we can really teach. So now we have to start looking at conceptual images again and get back into things having ways to conceptually get at the meaning of them

[53:15]

and dismantle this whole thing. But today we're talking about tranquility. And as I said, I think it's quite difficult to make the transition from focusing on objects that you have some way to conceptually reflect upon and looking at an object that there's no way to conceptually reflect on it. Which is, again, looking at a mind that's uninterrupted by any images, ungraspable by any images. Yes?

[54:31]

Is it looking at its ability to know? You could try that. The ability to know, or the ability to think, was Yangshan's instruction. He said, reverse the mind and think back to the ability to think. Look at the ability to think. When we're thinking about something, the ability to think is there. Look at it. Continuously, rather than flipping back and forth. Like, okay, here's the thinking about, I'll look at the ability to think about that, and then I'll go back to that. Try to be looking at the ability to think of all the things you're thinking.

[55:33]

That's another instruction. Look at the ability to think. Look at that which is always there when thinking is happening and which can be transformed into various things, wherein, through this transformation of consciousness, images or ideas of people and other things arise. But there's always that ability to think is there. Even if it's not operating, it's there. Is that the same as think of not thinking? No, I think it's the same as think of non-thinking. But think of non-thinking is the same initial instruction. So that's another way Dogen put it. He says, think of not thinking. And how do you think of not thinking? Non-thinking.

[56:35]

Not thinking I would equate with insight, the removing of the signs of the object. And non-thinking is more like tranquility, learning the backward step. Non-thinking also translating as beyond thinking. So what's beyond thinking? The ability to think. Subject and object aren't really merged. I mean, are you suggesting that subject and object are merged? Non-duality is not the merging of subject and object.

[57:35]

It's the non-duality of subject and object. They're not merged. They stand very nicely. Subject, object, I, subject, I, object. They're not merged. They are non-dual. If they were merged, there would be no issue. They're not one entity. They're one being. They're part of one event, but they actually are not merged. Tranquility sounds different than non-dual state? The state of tranquility, again, the state of tranquility is what's called tranquility in here, is the state of mental and physical pliancy and ease with which you would be now quite unhindered and joyful to continue to practice tranquility,

[58:37]

to continue to practice giving precepts, patience, diligence, and tranquility. You'd be happy to do those practices, and you have no, like, no hindrance to those practices for the time being. And you also would be happy to now learn about insight. You know, insight into, for example, suchness, and insight into non-duality. In a sense, non-duality is a deeper realization than suchness. We need to realize suchness in order to understand non-duality. Yes? I'm having a hard time understanding something I would have thought I'd clarified a long time ago,

[59:40]

and that is meditation relative to zazen. And my understanding of zazen is that we observe thoughts and let them go, observe thoughts and let them go, just let them pass through. But zazen is called meditation. Yes. And my understanding, or what I hear about meditating on wisdom, for instance, or meditating on tranquility, or mental activities that you would pursue. And so I don't understand, what is meditation relative to zazen? Well, to mentally attend to letting go of thoughts... In fact, you could let go of thoughts

[60:43]

without mentally attending to them, right? Matter of fact, we do let go of thoughts without mentally attending to them. Like you let go of whatever you were thinking of a few seconds ago. There was letting go of it. But did you mentally attend to the letting go of it? It naturally happened. Pardon? I think that it just naturally happened. The letting go naturally happened, yes. So we're talking about mentally attending to a natural occurrence. For you, a natural occurrence is to have an inner mind. It's a natural occurrence. And the inner mind is constantly being let go of. And so now, this actually is a mental activity. Tranquility is a mental activity. It's an activity. What kind of activity is it?

[61:44]

It is an activity of attention. What kind of attention? Mental attention. What kind of mental attention? It's a continuous mental attention. To what? Well, you could say to letting go. To the mind being let go of. To the inner stream of the mind which is constantly released. So, Zazen does include mental activity. But it's not grasping after... Initially, it's not grasping after the images. Or trains of thought? It's not grasping after trains of thought. It's actually more like watching how the trains of thought are released. Watching how... Looking at the mind which thinks all the trains of thought. What's the mind that's always there?

[62:46]

No matter whether there's trains of thought going on or not. No matter what kind of thought or trains of thoughts are going on. That's not my business right now. My business is, what's the mind which knows all these trains of thought or whatever? I don't even know what's going on, actually. I'm not really into that right now. Something's going on, I suppose, but I'm focusing on... I'm turning the light back on. The ability to know. I'm not focusing on the known. I'm talking about the ability to know. I'm looking at the mind which knows rather than what is known by the mind. I'm concerned with what do I know? What's going on? In other words, what's going on means, what do I think is going on? I'm usually concerned with what I think rather than how I think. I'm usually concerned with how my ability to think is manifesting as what I know

[63:50]

rather than how do I... where's my ability to think? Looking at my ability to think is letting go. You can't hold on... I can't hold on to anything when I look at the ability of this mind to think. When I look at that which is thinking, I can't get too much into what is being thought of. That's the backward step. That's the backward step. And it is difficult to learn it, I'm afraid. And Dogen's student, Dogen doesn't say this so much, he doesn't say follow the breath, but Dogen's student says, in a sense, put everything into the breath and that may help you get ready to do this big deal called leaping into this womb of light, which is the womb of everything let go,

[64:51]

everything let go, everything let go, nothing to hold on to. Or, I'm looking at the inner stream of the meditating mind. Same thing. Many ways to try to describe reversing your thinking process. And it's difficult, but it comes to fruit as this excellent state of mind. And you also have a taste of what it's like to be free of conceptual reach. You're opening to the Dharma, actually. You're going to see your original face. All that stuff's going to be revealed to you. If you're willing to give up your can openers. Does that make more sense?

[65:54]

And also, let me just ask one more question. So, could I enter Zen Dojo in the morning with an intention that day that I was going to practice wisdom, tranquility, and insight, and do all three at the same time, simply by observing my observing moment? I think that actually, I guess I would recommend that you, if you want to observe your observing mind, that you actually, you know, just for sake of, you know, I don't know what, success, that you actually say, I'm going to practice tranquility, and later I'll practice wisdom. Opening to this realm will be conducive to practicing insight, because it says a little bit later in the text, once you've attained this state, then you can start practicing insight.

[66:58]

Okay? It also says, before you attain this state of, this wonderful state of ease and fitness for all wholesome activities, before you attain that, have you attained Samatha? And the answer is no. If you're practicing this way, but haven't yet attained this state, you're practicing in a way that's in accord with, or that's lined up with the instruction for practicing and realizing Samatha, but you haven't attained it yet. It says, prior to attaining this mental and physical ease, if you do these studies, if you study these doctrines and meditate on them, is that insight? No, it's not insight if you're not in a state of tranquility. So to some extent, we have been doing vipassana work

[68:02]

that is in accord with vipassana but isn't really the vipassana unless we've been in these states of tranquility. So I would suggest if you want to practice the instructions that I'm bringing up today from the Sutra, that you understand you're practicing tranquility, that you're learning the backward step. And again, learning the backward step is recommended by Dogen, and I would make that equal to learning non-thinking. Learning to go beyond your thinking, going beyond your thinking, I would translate as going beyond what you're thinking about. Going beyond thinking more is like to turn back and look at the thinking, not be concerned about what you're thinking about, which is normal thinking. Thinking is like concern with what it's thinking about. Now, forget that for now, and look at the thinking itself. Tranquility practice.

[69:12]

Opening you to your original face, and that, if you can stand to be open to that, you'll be better able to do wisdom practice. Yes? I'm curious, in your experience, it does seem to be a difference between having that experience of the mind, seeing the mind as looking, where there's no thought. And then, when thought arises, that mind is still there, but it surely is not the self, no longer is. You know, how to have something from here, not that, that you're doing. I'm not... Your question kind of wandered about a little bit too much for me.

[70:16]

Could you try to focus it, please? So you could you could look at looking at thinking in order to... When you're thinking, you're usually looking at what you're thinking. Looking at the process. Pardon? But again, looking at the process of thinking could be kind of balanced between looking at the thinking and what you're thinking of. So you can be aware of the process of thinking is going on, and so I'm aware the process of thinking is going on, but now I'm going to try to like turn back and look at the ability to be involved in this process, and the ability to know these objects. So it's a little bit more emphasis on the ability than both looking at the ability to think and what's thought of. Usually what people do is they're way over on the side of what's thought of,

[71:19]

and they're not giving much attention to the ability to think at all. So shifting back just to give some attention to the ability of thinking is a big transition, a big change. What's your question? I think we've got a problem. The mind turns back and it can't think of anything at all. So if, you know, if there wasn't any thinking,

[72:31]

I think that it would just be a state that's just not very clear. You know, I wouldn't really be very aware that I was aware if there was no thinking. In other words, it's hard, it's hard to see it's hard to even be clear that I'm meditating on the ability to think if there's no thinking going on. But the ability to think could still be available, but it would be very unclear. So that would be kind of, I would be not very aware at that time. Do I label the kind of thinking as a way to understand my observing mind or my kind of mental way of looking at things?

[73:36]

Do I say... That's more vipassana, that's more insight work, labeling minds, or labeling. Would you give me an example in the how am I observing life with you observing my life? Would I be commenting on something? Say something back to me? I think what you're again trying to do now is you're trying to be involved in discursive thought. So this... the direction of your mind now to get a hold of something here through this conversation is what is given up in tranquility practice of this sutra. That you give up any conceptual any conceptual image

[74:38]

by which you can reflect on this process. It's different. Quite a gap is created. Yeah, right. Well, I think the way to understand how you can be in that state is to give it a try and you'll find out how difficult it is to be in that state because it's really different. It's a big change because you're like giving up the mind which is constantly interrupted by interpretation. You're talking about dispensing with the images by which you make meaningful what's going on. This is called dropping off body and mind. This is called leaping into the womb of light.

[75:44]

Now you want me to tell you about what it's like to leap into the womb of light? The womb of light is when you give up knowing what it's like to be in the womb of light. Or also, the womb of light is when you give up some kind of intellectual or conceptual interpretation of who you are. Big change, huh? That's what it seems like it's talking about to me. Turning the light around, pretty tough. It's usually the light's going out on things, on objects. Okay, now what's not there all the time? What's the mind which is always looking out there? You can't get a hold of that. There's nothing there. There's no people,

[76:44]

there's no frogs, but also there's no mind you can make into a people or a frog. Like this kind of a mind or that kind of a mind? No. You won't find mind quotes like this. This is the image that you're looking for. You can call it inner stream, got all these names, inner stream, uninterrupted mind, the mind which is contemplated by any mind, but this means it's non-conceptual, this thing you're looking for. No image to make it meaningful. Oh, I got it! Oh, I got it! This is what it's normally like to look at things. Oh, I got Nancy. Oh, I got Eric. Oh, I got my mind. It's not like that. It's a different way of being, a different way of training.

[77:46]

It's different. It's a new thing. It's a new way. It's the backward step. And your original face is there waiting for you that you won't be able to see. Yes? When I hear this teaching, I get the impression that I probably try a lot of these things and nothing's real. I mean, I try one day when I hear you telling me to do the backward step, I try that, and another day I try just seeing, and the third day I may try insight. And I just wonder if that is really leading to something or if it would not be better just to do one thing until I master it instead of just trying this one. Instead of just trying what comes to my mind,

[78:53]

and maybe thereby always I don't know, going away from the point because, I don't know. It just came up to me very clearly when you told that now that I'm trying a lot of these things but actually I've never achieved anything of that and it might be better just to focus on one picture, or instruction. Yeah, that might be good. Yeah, so why don't you try just choose one and focus on that one for a while. Like backward step, or inner stream of the meditating mind, or non-thinking, or think back to the ability to think. One of those. And

[79:54]

maybe, and then see if, but if you get too nauseated and you know, let it go. Let it go. Some instructions may make you sick. Take a rest. And then you can come, instead of switching to another one you can just take a rest and come back. That's why following the breath might be kind of a nice resting place. And if you could follow your breath with no image by which that would be meaningful you'd be doing the same practice. So that's why I think people maybe stumble upon this practice while they're following their breathing. Or by following your breathing wholeheartedly and in the breath there's just the breath you enter into a state of like no identification or dis-identification

[80:56]

with the breath. You open to the same realm. So yeah, maybe jumping around between instructions maybe. Be careful of that. Yes? I guess my question is can you, with Paschen, work out in such a way because I guess there's always a thought of perfectionism Can you do insight work without conceptual objects? I'm not saying you can't. I'm just saying the sutra says that you work with conceptual objects when you do insight work. And part of the reason why I think they want you to do work with conceptual objects is because another definition of insight in this chapter another definition of insight in this chapter is that Vipassana is mental

[81:56]

attention to signs. And then another comment is that in order for Bodhisattvas to accomplish the point of this whole chapter of this whole tradition in order for Bodhisattvas to be supremely enlightened and be able to expound the Dharma they have to remove the signs from all objects and all teachings. And what are the signs? The signs are the physical things together with the interpretations that make them substantial. So the insight work part of the insight work at least the initial insight work is to pay attention to conceptual images signs and remove them. However, in the final stage of conceptual work I mean of insight

[82:57]

the insight is joined with the non-conceptual image. The training in non-conceptual image is joined with and united with the training in meditation on conceptual images. So then not only are you not only are you first of all meditating on non-conceptual images attaining tranquility and then meditating on conceptual images but finally you train in non-conceptual attention and conceptual attention at the same time. In that case there is no conceptual image. So, there comes a time even in insight work where there's no you're not looking at conceptual images. It's the first part. And the first part

[83:57]

in this sutra is based on having trained yourself at giving up looking at conceptual images for a while. The result of which is that you're in a state of mind where you can really effectively study on conceptual images and signs. That's what this sutra is saying. But this, even this sutra says in the final stages there's one stage of vipassana where you're studying the signs. There's another state of vipassana where you're eliminating the signs. So finally it won't be that you're not exactly looking at conceptual images. You will have eliminated them. So that's the final thing. So there is a stage of vipassana where there is no attention to conceptual images. There is no attention to signs. And then there's a parallel practice of not paying attention to conceptual signs. So you can spend

[84:58]

a lot of time trying to learn how to not look at conceptual images. There's plenty of room for that. That's hard enough. And then based on success there you can then look at conceptual images. And finally when they're united you don't have to look at any more conceptual images. That's the latter part of the chapter. Yes? When you found the follow-up on that question you said something like you can have a taste in the samatha in the non-conceptual realm of life of what it's like at that final stage of insight. So would the difference be that you understand how reality actually is like that in samatha and you don't understand at that point yet just the state? Well you kind of you just kind of understand it. I mean that's how it is for you at that time.

[85:58]

But it's just that can you now go back and look at conceptual images which have signs without believing the signs? And the answer is no, you cannot. You have to work with the signs for quite a bit until you're not caught by them anymore. But in tranquility in the training of tranquility you're giving up the signs to some extent. You're giving up the conceptual access and you're willing to be with the world in a way that the world actually is which promotes you being able to enter into a training course which is going to open you to this realization. You could say like in Samatha you wouldn't yet know that the world really is like that. That's the difference between that Samatha and insight. You wouldn't be fully convinced. You get a peek but you don't really know that this is even if you think I think this is more true you're not talking like that.

[87:00]

So in the Bhukan Dzogchen Dogen does talk about not thinking but not thinking I think is more related to the insight where you actually like are going to remove the signs but in order to remove the signs you have to be able to get over your... put aside your usual thinking for a while and attain tranquility. .

[88:13]

. And as the Sangha puts it this this meditation practice is basically relaxing. Relaxing with the way our mind works usually. Relaxing with it so much that it's like the mind is reversed from trying to get control of things to look at what's trying to get in control. What's always there in all these controlling enterprises . Relax with

[89:48]

any kind of gain or any concern for understanding. Concern for understanding is fine but that's the object of the thinking. Relax with that way of being with this issue. . I vow

[91:07]

to save them. Delusions are inexhaustible. I vow to end them. Dharma gates are boundless. I vow to enter them. Buddha's way is unsurpassable. I vow to become that.

[91:36]

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