He didn't have to talk. You know, if you asked me to speak without keeping my mouth and throat and everything shut, okay, ask me to do that? Ask me to do that. Okay, would you speak with your mouth shut? Did you hear me? The bird did it for me. yeah okay now if I ask the bird to do it the bird would you please would you please speak for me the bird says it's not that I refuse to sing for you it's just that if I do so I'll lose my disciples meaning you because I'm doing for you as though I could so yeah Nobody's criticizing anybody here so far.

[01:02]

Everybody's doing fine. Everybody's playing their part very well. This is, so far, flawless behavior. Okay? Linda? It looks like all three answers gave a way of accomplishing this. All three statements. Each statement accomplishes it. That's the characteristic of this kind of speech. The speech in a koan, not all the speech koan, but koan often demonstrates speaking as it's spoken. Like a day that accomplishes a day as it happens. Not a day that's waiting to get something out of the day, but a day that happens moment by moment. Each moment is complete in itself. Each moment is complete in itself. Each moment makes life worthwhile. And what I see is the descendants of Dharma, that if it comes unnaturally, if it comes separate from the day, it will not procreate, it will not publicize, it will not...

[02:20]

useful, it will not pass through you. If you add yourself to it, it will not pass through you. If it's my mouth, my words, it will not be done. Sometimes they do. If we have enough cases, then one of them will do that. That is one of the ways of responding if you do a prostration. The question is, does that prostration come from relying on prostrations? If so, you've got to hold still for a little long until that prostration comes through you without you resisting the way you are prior to the prostration. You're unprostrated so you can stand to be

[03:22]

So when we prostrate, it's nice to feel the prostration come without being kind of like unable to be unprostrated. I'm perfectly happy not prostrating, and now from that happiness of not prostrating, I'm prostrating. And now I'm prostrating, and now I prostrated, I'm perfectly happy being prostrated. And here I am standing up from this acceptance of my prostrate... condition. It's like this. This is prostration. Hmm? Does that make sense? Buddhists do... Yeah. Yeah. Lying prone. Yeah. It's prone. Right. You prostrate yourself on the earth as an animal. of formal respect to something.

[04:25]

And hopefully you do it, the prostration you do, you do in the spirit of this story, but also towards what you're prostrating to. You prostrate, again, without using something from whatever you're prostrating to. So if you prostrate to Buddha, you do that without trying to get something from Buddha. In fact, you prostrate to say, I'm prostrating to the one I'm not trying to get anything from. I prostrate to you, I respect you, but I don't respect you to try to get something from you. But to, you know, not express my respect to you, then obviously, if I never pay my respects to you, then I'm not trying to get anything from you, maybe. Of course, you could also try disrespect in order to get something from some people. I guess some people try that. Teenagers try to do it with their parents. express respect, just to respect, express it, without trying to get anything. That's the way to do prostrations.

[05:31]

And for these people to speak to their teacher and answer their teacher's request without trying to get anything from their teacher. ...teacher for something without trying to get anything from the teacher. To say, please give me something without trying to get anything. Okay? Can you do that? Can you say, please give me something and have that be complete in itself? My life's complete. I got my chance to ask Buddha for something. My life's complete. That's it. Buddha may never respond. But that's a good life. A life when you could ask Buddha for something. But if you ask Buddha for something and you're asking in order to... and you don't appreciate... the activity of acting, of asking, you missed your life and you wasted a great opportunity. Or just take away, great, you missed an opportunity.

[06:33]

Yes. Well, being able to relax into the moment, which you mentioned a while ago, I mean, it seems like, you know, that's deeply, deeply satisfying. Yeah. And this is a story that's good, because this is a story of where I feel... that Guishan is really demonstrating relaxing into the moment. I really feel that about Guishan. The teacher said, shut your mouth, tongue, and lips. How will you speak? He relaxes into that and says, please, teacher, would you speak and say it? This comes from relaxing into the moment of a teacher asking you to do this new kind of speech. I experience that, probably we all do, many times over the course of the day, and it's very satisfying, and yet, much to my frustration, I keep getting yanked out of that moment. Good, good. I keep getting ejected into... Yeah, so, if you could settle into the moment, and feel that you aren't yanked, that you aren't yanked, emerges from the settling.

[07:42]

That's what this is about. This story is saying, settling into the moment, of having your mouth shut, and your lips together, and your throat shut. Settling into that. But being settled into it, that's everything shut down. Then, how will speech come? Now, you say yang, you see, but it could be that it comes without being yang, but more like erupts. Well, no, speech can just erupt, but what happens is... I get yanked out of the moment. Not necessarily, so I can be in the moment and speak. I can continuously speak and continuously be in the moment and speak and speak and be in the moment, but then images will flood into my mind and I'll be out of the moment. You can be subtle and see it come up, and you can stay present with that, and then when the images come up, you get taken away.

[08:48]

So that's your difficulty. You can't do the same with that. So you're present and the words come out and the images come up with the words and you lose it when the images come. Well, the images don't even come with the words. The images could be even unrelated to my words. You know, it's usually voices or pictures from the past or just general background noise in my brain. And it just knocks me right out of the tent. So that's your heartbeat. It's upsetting. I mean, it's disquieting. It's frustrating. So that's where you have difficulty not resisting. Well, yeah, I'd love, actually, yeah, the truth is I'd love to resist. No, you do resist it. Yeah, I do resist it. Yeah, that's if you have trouble not resisting. Yeah. So that's very challenging for you, to find a non-resisting response, a non-resisting way to be with this flood of stories and words and images.

[09:52]

Right. So when you're settled with that flood... But if you're not settled, you don't have to even answer the question until you're settled with that material, with that experience. Because if you're not settled with it, you're going to try to use that stuff to deal with your life. That's part of it. That's what's so upsetting. If you're trying to use your life to live your life, it's very upsetting. So without using all this stuff, how can this stuff come through you? That's your problem. When you settle with that, then you're ready to respond here. These monks, as they're supposed to be able to come from, they settle with whatever the material is. That's what not using, you know, your throat, your so and so forth. So, in other words, how are you going to think those thoughts without using those thoughts? How are you going to be aware of these stories and images without having to be separate from yourself?

[10:59]

That's your problem. If you can do that, then you can speak, and when those thoughts come up again, you can keep talking without getting disrupted by those things. So that's your... You're telling us it's hard for you to... Sonia? No. Dale? I'm finding it hard to... Where does intention fit in? That is, trusting and aversion, you know, where can, somewhere in the clean air, how can I get some kind of intention? Well, what's your intention? For instance, to stay present. For instance, to not resist. Well, take away stay. Take away stay. So you're not resist. You want that to be your intention?

[12:05]

Well, just stay present to open to what is. Take away stay. To be present with what is, is that your intention? Could that be your intention? Yes. So what's your question? Let's say that is, okay? Now what's your question? It seems close to grasping, beginning, to wanting. That intention seems close to grasping? Yes. It is close. When you're not resisting something, you're quite close to it. No, no, no. I think like having an intention is very close to being grasping for it. Uh-huh, yeah. It is close, yeah. It seems close. Except this is intention, a kind of intention, which is to be intimate with your intentions. That's this type of intention. Okay?

[13:11]

So if it's an intention to be intimate with your intentions, it is going to be very similar to intentions. Very similar, except it's not similar at all. It's not similar. It's close to. It's not similar, though. It's extremely different. Because it's not an intention, really. Like the other intentions. It's not an intention to get something. It's an intention to give up trying to get something. It's an intention to be rather than to give. Yes. It's an intention to be rather than do. But... It's not an intention to be, which is like to avoid doing. It's like if you're into doing, it's to be doing. It's the being of the doing of the doing. So it's very intimate with the doing. If you have any intentions to get something, it's to not resist that you're on some trip. If you have an intention or an impulse to avoid something, it's that you're intimate with that impulse to avoid.

[14:15]

If you're squirming, you're intimate with the squirming. The squirming, which is resisting just being there. So they're very close. If you get too far away, you've got another trip going. You're not far away from your life. You're not far away from your circumstances. Your circumstances are happening. You're present with it. You can make being present, however, into another action, but then that's not presence. Presence is to be present with the action, or just the presence of the action. So it's very close to the defiled world of self-power and doing things and wanting things. It's intimate with that world because that's the world we have to bring intimacy and presence to because that's the world where we lose our disciples. That's the world where we give up our integrity and think we need something outside of ourselves which we've set up.

[15:17]

That's the place we undermine to mean our existence and try to get something out of today. So if we direct our attention to being and the moment, sometimes there's nothing to grasp it. There's nothing to grasp in that intent to be with what's happening in a way that there's no grasping. And the moment's gone, so there's nothing to grasp it. But even when the moment's there, there's nothing to grasp because you're so intimate with it. You can't get any distance from it to get it. If you're intimate with things, you can't, you know, it's like being in a Volkswagen with an 800-pound tiger. You can't grasp it. It's just smothering you. You know, it's too close. But you get a few feet away, and you're in big trouble. So you gradually reduce the distance between subject and object.

[16:19]

You make the awareness and what's happening seamless. And then, now, from there, you can speak without using anything. Speech will come out of that place. It will come out of that place. It will be right speech and right accent. That's what the teacher's asking you to say. The teacher's asking you to act, is to ask the monk to act from that place, that intimacy. Yes? Would the description non-intention be helpful? Non-intention is fine if you understand that it's not to eliminate the intention, but it's to be intimate with the intention. So non-intention... Non-intention is okay. Like non-thinking, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that's a good word for it. So non-intention would be to be intimate, would come from being intimate with your intention.

[17:27]

Huh? Which is a non-intention. Which is a non-intention, yes. When you actually realize intimacy. What's your name again? Spencer. Spencer? Yeah, I go to meetings with very intelligent people. And I'm often saying to myself that everything I think without saying, they can say for me. Yes. So I find myself not speaking. I feel like I'm resisting speaking. I have a lot of fear of speaking and say the wrong thing. But I also know that everybody in that room is going to be able to say that. That's very similar to the story, isn't it? Yeah. But you should say in that room, would you people please speak for me? They always do. Well, but say it. Tell them to do it. Ask them to do it. Say, please, please, teachers, speak for me. Speak on my behalf. And they may say... Because maybe also you can speak for them. But if you ask them to speak for you, they'll ask you to speak for them.

[18:32]

Because they won't necessarily know what you mean when you ask them to speak for you. So then they'll ask you, and then you'll have to start speaking for them, what they don't understand about themselves, and that they've been speaking for you. But let them know that they're speaking for you. Ask them to do so. Then you won't be just so, like, resisting. Yeah, I feel very separate. Yeah. So say, put your separateness out there, saying, who is separate from me? Speak for me. That... It gets intimate with the separation. Just to say nothing, you can just sort of slump into your separation. Resisting. By not bringing it out in the open. You can bring this... Then you can overcome resistance to it. Like you're doing now. Something I keep thinking about is that when we observe a moment of devotion or impulse to prostrate, to observe that moment, and then to observe that moment, then enlightenment comes.

[20:06]

Good. Good. Well, I get to the point where I can observe the mind that feels adoration, but then I can't... The other one? No, you won't be able to do that. Why not? Because you can't see that. It's invisible. It can't be an object of awareness. But probably a good idea to try. Case 32 of the book groups of... Look... Pardon? It's not the next moment. You can't observe awareness of something. You can observe something, but you can't observe the awareness of that. If you look at awareness, you can't But it is sometimes good to try to look at awareness and find out what it's like to look back at awareness.

[21:08]

Case 32 in Book of Serenity. Check it out, that's what it's about. Look at the mind which thinks of... You can't see that mind. But look at it. No, first one is a mirror. looking at something. This is a mirror. Something is reflected in the mirror. Now, for this mirror to look at the mirror-like quality, the mirror can only reflect objects. It can't reflect a mirror. But you should still try to reflect a mirror sometimes. That's a meditation instruction which sometimes is appropriate. Case 32. Robert? Yeah, um, one girl is worried about not having any descendants. Yeah, Bai Zhang is too, here in this story.

[22:17]

It's not like he's looking for them. No, it's not that you're looking for them, it's that you want them. Buddha wants successors. That's what makes Buddhas appear in the world, is that Buddhas want successors. It means Buddhas want people to have Buddha's wisdom. The wise Buddha wants successors. other people, other beings to have Buddha's wisdom. That's what Buddhas are concerned about. That's what it means to want to success it. You're not looking for them. You can see them right now. They're all... is what you're looking for. They already have this wisdom. No, they don't. They have it, but they don't understand it because they're attached to getting something out of the moment, out of the day. So what Buddha wants is for people to give up their attachments and to realize the Buddha knowledge. Buddhas want that. And their intention?

[23:27]

Well, and then their intention is to do whatever will make that happen. So they try to get people to open up their eyes to this wisdom. But it's done from a place of not grasping yet. Well, yeah, they're showing the people they're not grasping. They desire this without grasping. They want to show other beings how to realize this. So they demonstrate it. First they try to open their eyes, then they show it so that people will see it and enter it. They want to do that. So they're making a request all the time, like, please be a Buddha. Yeah, kind of like, please be a Buddha, right? Or please realize your Buddha mind. Please do that. Please wake up. Please speak with your mouth open and lips shut. Please speak that way. Please. That's what this story is about. A Buddha wants people to realize they're Buddha.

[24:30]

And the first story, I would suggest to you, although I'm willing to disagree, the first story is Buddha had a successor here. This is a successful successor story, the first one. I have a little trouble with maybe it's just the English meaning of wants includes grasping. The content of wants is grasping. So I'm trying to understand is that because they're Buddhas, that any use of the word want in context of them wouldn't include grasping? Right. You can do it to say, well, you can say that. Or another way to say it is, it is possible to want something with no attachment. How?

[25:33]

Well, again, to say how... an attitude of, like, I wonder how, rather than I'm trying to get the answer to that. Like, I'd rather understand than get an understanding. Okay, so that's it. That's it? I understand that. Yeah. Okay. I can want something without being attached to you getting it. As a matter of fact, there are certain things I want for you, which, if I'm attached, will interfere with you getting them. So one of the stories, one of the first Zen stories I heard, read was Zen and the Art of Archery. Okay? And in archery, it's one of the Zen arts, the archery teacher says, pull back the bow, the arrow, the bow, the string of the bow, and hold it until the string is released.

[26:37]

But don't release it. With your fingers, with your fingers unmoving, Without moving your fingers, let the bow string go. And you just hold it there until the bow string goes. And they hold it for days and days and years and months. They hold it. They just go there and hold it. And you cannot let go of it until it's let go of. And this guy, this Western guy who wrote the book named Herrigel, he figured out a way for the string to be let go of without him letting go, he said, he just kept holding it, each moment he took it away. And finally it just went. And as soon as it went, the teacher said, get out of here. Kicked him out of the practice place. Because he figured out a way to do this, you know, it's cheating.

[27:39]

It is possible to want something for someone without being attached to them, but really put emphasis on wanting rather than the attachment. In a sense, that's what you really are. What you really are is a desiring being. You don't have to be a being that has any greed. You can desire without greed. You can want something without greed. So that's part of the dilemma here. What I'd like to do now is have you walk over to the meditation hall and sit for a little while. Can you do that? Just sit with all this for a little while. Airplane.

[30:22]

Subject object. Subject object. I may have left that window in the back of you. The frame detected that the light streaked in. Maybe it's just too rough.

[31:30]

The sand was not. From where? From outside. What was that? I can't tell which way the light's going myself. Looking out, I see looking.

[32:38]

looking toward you. I see. I see. How are you feeling? Jumpy. Jumpy? My stomach. I'm wondering if anybody thinks they have something better to do.

[33:50]

I'm wondering if your face is old. Is it? It's new. Yeah, now I see it. But before it looked old. It's new again. It's being new. How about for you? Was there a change? When I said new... Forget new. It's old. Holding new. Are you holding new?

[35:09]

I'm not asking for that. Balancing new. Balancing new? At new. I'm saying at new? I don't like at new. It's inelegant. You're doing fine. From my point of view. Is everybody else in on this? Hmm? Sorry, man. No? No? It's a missed out. We didn't get it. We didn't get it. Well, she had this face.

[36:16]

I thought it was an old face. And then I... And then it kept being new for quite a while. Cool. That's silly. Do you understand now, though, what was going on? Sort of. I mean, I guess maybe I've seen something like that. But I couldn't see it, unfortunately. Yeah. Were you guys watching? Could you see something? I can hear it. Do you hear it? It sounds like stuckness and breath. Stuckness and breath. Stuckness and breath? Mm-hmm. Uh-huh. Yeah. I'm trying to talk about it and think fully in the middle. Mm-hmm. I wondered what her face looked like.

[37:18]

They couldn't see. Not creepy. Can you feel your own face? whether it's fresh or not, to a fresh face. I thought when you said, you know, it's new, I really think, I thought that you just saw it as new. It was always new. So more that it was a change in you, more that it was a change in her. You know, I won't, I'm not going to argue with you, but I really felt, uh, that her face was really getting old. It wasn't changing. And you may say that I didn't see the change, but I did see change. That's what made me feel funny about the fact that her face was not changing, that the changing face kept looking the same.

[38:36]

And though when I asked her, it started to change a lot. So I'm not saying it was her or me. If it was all her, I think it would be rude of me to talk to her that way. Did you feel like one was better than the other? No, I don't think I got into that too much. But I was... I felt like we were... more intimate when she started to respond. May I throw this? Does this relate to the man of no rank? It relates to a man of no rank in that there's a person of no rank who's constantly coming in and out of your face. There's a person of no rank.

[39:40]

going in and out through your nose, your eyes, your ears, and your mouth. Somebody's always going in and out through your face. Do you know this person? This person's got nothing to lose and nothing to gain. This person's constantly going in and out of your face. What do you mean, in and out? I don't really mean anything by that. He just asked me about this, okay? I just told you about it. I don't mean anything by it. If I mean something by it, that's a person of a rank. Huh? That's a person of his rank if I mean something by that. But I don't mean something by that. I mean... ...who doesn't mean anything by what he's doing.

[40:42]

The one who just does. The one who just talks. The one who just inhales and exhales. The one who keeps changing his face, or her face. Can I ask you about this for a second? You sure can. During the afternoon break, I was really hungry, because I remember that I hadn't eaten breakfast and I hadn't eaten dinner. Last night, I just went and took a chunk of bread from my kitchen. I realized that I was doing all kinds of computations in my head trying to figure out if this was in line with, well, gee, sometimes I come here, but I haven't paid for a meal. I asked, and I picked for that. Should I ask somebody? Who was the appropriate person to ask? Who was the appropriate person to grant me permission to eat a chunk of bread? I just ate it and didn't worry about it. But that's kind of unusual for me. eating without worrying about it? Well, I mean, I didn't pay for it. I know you guys are... Did you pay for this workshop? Yeah, I did.

[41:44]

Well, during this workshop, you can eat as much as you want, anytime. Oh, great, thank you. And constantly stuff your face. The interesting part was... But when the workshop's over... No more eating. I don't do it until six, but I do it in the five. I'm meditating. It's not usual for me to do that. To do what? I want to make sure I'm doing the right thing before I do it. Oh, you don't usually do that? Maybe I just think I don't usually do it. But it's like... So this workshop so far has made you more conscious of what you're doing? No, it's sort of like... Are you more aware of your concern about whether you're doing the right thing? Well, I think what happened is I just did it rather than stopping myself from doing it. What's the stuff about... Well, I thought you just said you started to consider whether it was appropriate or not.

[42:50]

Yeah, I did. And they don't usually do that? No, I also do that, but then I stop. I usually go, and this is the wrong thing to do, and I don't do X, even though I kind of need it. Or what about sometimes you say, this is the right thing to do, and then you do it? Only if I've decided by various, you know, like, oh, yeah, it's appropriate to do X, Y, Z. Right. Now I will. Right. So sometimes you figure out that it's not appropriate, and you stop yourself, and you have other methods to figure out that it's right, and then you do do it. But in both of those situations, I'm relying upon what I've figured out. Right, you're relying on your discursive thinking. Right. Yes. Okay, so what do you want to say? And here, I figured out that I maybe ought not to, I'm willing to do it anyway. Well, you did do some figuring. Yeah, so now I just sort of, the peg was at my ankle, and I just chucked a breath. I'm not too sure, but I still did lots of discursive thinking, but... But are you saying that for a moment there you... You realized it's Cohen?

[43:51]

And you acted appropriately, even without thinking about it? I don't know if I'm realizing it's Cohen or not, but I was a lot more worried about the door, and now I'm just sort of hanging with him. You were worried when you came back from the bathroom break? No, I was worried when I showed up in the beginning of the day that I wasn't getting anything out of the day or that I wouldn't have to put in some effort like you asked me to. Put in some effort to really be... I wasn't worried I wouldn't put in enough effort or something. I was just hanging with you. You're not so much worried about whether you're putting enough effort in? I don't know. It's just fun hanging with you. So I think it's worth the 30 bucks. And... I think that's denying you the fan. I mean, you know... You're going to do this. So I was sort of less worried about it than I was at the beginning of the year. That's because you're a member, I think, right? No, no, no. No, I just meant... Oh, it's worth $20. Oh, what? No, no. She thinks it's worth $20. Oh, my God. Well, it's certainly worth $30. Yeah, especially with lunch included. Oh, yeah. Well, especially if she's going to eat.

[44:55]

I'll be quiet now. I want to say that this is the first time that I actually got that these stories could have happened. Thank you, Carol. How about my interaction with him? Well, I'm sure they had those too back then. That's what they think, Carol. I call you Carol for short.

[46:14]

It's short for Daniel. How about the shouting, Daniel? Oh, what about it? I took courses years ago, and we shot a little live, and once I went to do that, I took it again. So you already know how? It's not a problem. Good. Sometimes when there's a discourse, I see a discourse spinning in Daniel's head. Something, it's like a merry-go-round, they're running it in it. And I find myself whirling in the same path. It's a very community path. We're thinking about thinking about thinking about thinking. It's been fun. Where there's no one, I shade my eyes with my hand, and I gaze out toward you.

[48:04]

With this instruction about how to shut up, That seems very intimate. I think you could say it's instruction about how to shut up, or it's instruction from one who has shut up. I think it's really a good way to meet people. So if you take the place of the teacher and you ask for people to speak to you without relying on anything, just really speak to you spontaneously.

[49:27]

Then they might ask you to shut up. And you might say in your heart, okay, I'll shut up. I'll be quiet. And where there's no one, I shake my eyes and gaze toward you, gaze out toward you. I ask you, how are you going to speak without using anything? How are you going to live without using anything? How are you going to have a day without using anything, without trying to get anything? And you tell me to shut up. I shut up. I say, where there's no one. I shape my eyes and gaze out towards you.

[50:36]

Now, if there's someone, someone may want more than this. This may not be enough for someone. I think this is a way of life. So I'd like you to take care of this no one. Okay? And eat as much as no one wants. Yeah, really enjoy your lunch. And come back here at 2 o'clock. Is that enough time for you? An hour? Come closer.

[51:53]

You should shut up, too. You two should shut up. Observe Wu Feng's strategy on the dragon and snake battle lines. People think of General Lee Gwang over the 10,000 mile horizon. A single kingfisher hawk. So gorgeous. And then Bhai Jan also asked Yin Yan, with your throat, mouth, and lips shut, how will you speak?

[53:12]

And Yin Yan said, teacher, do you have any way or not? And Jan said, I have lost my descendants. How does this look? I don't understand. I don't understand. But do you understand the other two? Yeah, actually I do. What is it about this one that seems different?

[54:17]

Well, the first lines of verse, I just don't know how to... Are you talking about the third case? Well, I was actually talking about, first I didn't understand the lines of verse that were attached to the second one, but then I also didn't understand the third case. So you were asking what's different? To me, about the third one. Yeah, I was talking about the third case. Not the verse. Talk about that, too. I don't know if I can say what the scene's doing. Teacher, do you have any way to speak from that? I've lost... When Haijian says, I've lost my descendants, in the terms we were looking at it before, like losing one's integrity or sense of... I don't... I just don't see how it works that way.

[55:26]

I don't see how it connects that way. I don't see where his response is coming from. Well, on a simple level... He wouldn't be saying, I lost my integrity, saying, you know, I've lost my disciples. In other words, you, I've lost you. I asked you to speak without depending on me. But it looks like you have, so I've lost you. That's one way to read the story. So if he spoke without depending on his teacher, I wouldn't... I'm surprised that a teacher would interpret that as losing the student. If the teacher said, speak without depending on me, and the student did, then it would surprise me that a teacher would look at that as losing... No, that would be successful.

[56:32]

Okay. But it looks like he did depend on the teacher. He did depend on the teacher by saying, teacher, do you have any? Do you have or not have? Do you have some way to speak or not? Looks like he did depend on the teacher. So therefore the teacher loses. It seems like the first and third cases are similar, and yet one... The first and the third are similar, right. And the other one moves. And the other one moves. The first one is similar, and yet the first one... And the first one, we have a feeling like

[57:33]

Guishan did fine, and the third one was doing like yin-yang. But the words are similar. Now, how can you tell what's what? And basically, you have to go back to the situation in which these things happen. It's kind of like they do They try to recreate the situation at the beginning of the universe to see what happens. Are those circumstances? You know what I mean? They're trying to create temperatures and velocities They don't like what they thought would be at the beginning of the universe and see what happens under those circumstances.

[58:35]

So we need to create a story to see whether a statement like, teacher, do you have any or not, could that happen? But doesn't so much have to do with the relationships of the people in these stories to create similar... If someone's at 10 or 15 years, it's different than some of our situations. You have to go back to China. You have to go back to China more than a thousand years ago. How are you going to do that? By reading the story. But we can't go back to China more than a thousand years ago, and we can't help those people there. But what can we create? They were in China. They created the situation that happened thousands of years before them. They created the situation between Buddha and his disciples.

[59:42]

So actually, the only way we can tell what's going on with these stories is to create the same situation as the stories. But we can't go backwards. We have to create... We can't go back to the beginning. We have to create a situation like the beginning of the universe. We have to create a situation like this story. And then see if anybody here could say what Yunyun said. And if they did, would that be appropriate to such a circumstance? It wouldn't. Maybe you could have a feeling for why it wouldn't. even though this is an English translation and all that. It seems to me that when I ask you a question, it's the same intent as saying, do you have or not? How do you mean?

[60:46]

Well, I'll ask a question to get something. It would be in a gainful way. And so my understanding is that then I would be like, say, teacher, do you have or not? Your response would be, I have lost my descent. With a question like that, for me, that's in a gainful way. So I think I have participated in creating this story. So, to you, it sounds like yin-yang is talking that way. To me, it does. To ask that of the teacher, to say, do you have a way? Although, I think that yin could ask that without having even changed the way. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

[61:48]

And also the teacher could say, I have lost my descendants without really being indicted. And how is that? Well, he could be using an ironic rhetoric for effect. The word again is mind. You might be a student of the Dharma, but not a student of kids. And the difference between the first one and this one seems to be trust. The first one, trust, that you will speak for him. And this one says, can. Do. You feel the first one, he was trusting. This one is more like a do or don't. It's doubt. It's doubt. Also, we have just, you know, we shouldn't do this. I mean, I shouldn't do this, but I just happen to have the historical information that before Yunyun was awake.

[63:05]

So it's like, it's funny because in one sense we're talking about, I'm talking about creating a situation which has nothing to do with history. At the same time, I also have a historical document here, too. So we're doing a funny thing here, is that we're also, in a sense, like physics, is that we have actually some historical information about the way the universe developed, but we're trying to, so we know certain things happen one after another, according to the history of the universe, yet before there was a history at the same time. But part of the way we'll check ourselves is to see if it follows according to history. So if one of you goes back and creates in your own presence, and you feel like, I am now in that situation, exactly the same situation as this dialogue, I'm in exactly the same reality space, and here's what I have to say, and here's me asking the same question, and this other question

[64:13]

I can feel now this is not appropriate. And then you check to see, does it accordance history? And the answer would be yes. Because we have several other stories after this where Yunyun still didn't get it. And then he did. So we kind of know that he didn't quite make it here. And Baijian says so. And also the verse also. And also the commentator seems to go along with it too. He says, you know, these three answered Baijian's questions are all different from each other. Versus Guishan, a towering up like a thousand foot wall, then there's Feng shining and functioning And then there's yin-yang himself.

[65:21]

So the opinions are accumulating to say that yin-yang has not yet come to fruit in the story. So that seems to be commentators. Stories, we have lots of information to say he didn't make it. But can you, not knowing anything about the story, can you verify it from your own experience? We're supposed to do that. In a sense, we're supposed to be able to transcend the present. Back a thousand years ago, into China, and be able to say, this guy was off. How are we supposed to be able to do that? How are we supposed to be able to do that? You can say event. How are we supposed to be able to do that? And how?

[66:24]

Go back a thousand years. Well, you know, first of all, there is no thousand years ago, right? There's no such thing. Right? Yeah, well, nobody has this thing anymore, right? It's gone, right? We used to have various theories and stories about what happened a thousand years ago. which change all the time. But anyway, this is the latest, best theory about what happened at the Battle of the Muons. But this is a spiritual story, so all the more that it's something that doesn't, you know, doesn't like, doesn't fall into some categories of past being separate from future.

[67:34]

or present. A lot what these stories are about is they're stories about being free of time. And supposedly the important thing is for us to be free of the present. We are now, right? We just happen to be in the present. That's our thing, because we're alive. But are we free of the present? In other words, are we free of what we think the present is? Each one of these stories is to help us become free of the present, and all three of them are trying to amplify and enrich what we've made into a little tiny present.

[68:39]

A little tiny present where we are kind of like hanging together. Or a present that hangs together, and so we hang together with the present. So then, we're everybody. And where we don't shade our eyes, we gaze out at you. So another way to talk about this, do these stories tell a story about your present? And does each story then deepen? deep in your present, or another, or another, does each story loosen or open up your present? Or, if you can't say yes to any of those questions, can you identify that there's something, there's something, you know,

[69:59]

substance, that you have some idea of the substance of your presence. And if you do, can you apply these stories to that substance to open up the substance, to enrich and lighten up on your present? Yes? Well, there's the relationship every day, relationship to suffering in proportion to being awake to the suffering. Yes. And so depending on how intense the suffering is, we have this opportunity to...

[71:04]

let the teacher speak, let the sufferer speak. Yes. Then I would say it's the risk of the practice, because we don't arrive at this discussion without disciple and teacher, without being in relationship to suffering, and then developing or internalizing some practice. So it seems to me like the whisk is actually a symbol of the practice towards suffering, and then when he puts it down, it doesn't have to be a practice. Well, what you're saying is fine. You missed something there. And that is, if there's a whisk, can I have the whisk back? If this whisk is representing the practice of your relationship to suffering, don't you say?

[72:16]

Yes. Something about this whisk is... No, whisk represents the practice towards being awake in suffering. Yes, the whisk is actually a symbol of authority, of being in authority. in the practice of awakening to suffering. Okay? Okay, you said that. Right? That's fine. But the point was not so much what the whisk is, the question is when you use the whisk, okay, when you use the practice, right? But that's not even the whole question. Of course, it's important whether you use the practice or not, right? Whether you practice or not, isn't it? Sure. You're practicing or not practicing? Okay, I'm practicing. Now, this story is saying, do you identify with the practice or not? Well, it seems like you have to let go of the practice.

[73:29]

So the practice has to be developing a separation from the practice. Yeah, well, let's say you got this practice of developing suffering, okay? Let's say you have that. Fine. Do you identify with that practice or not identify with it? Well, that's the question. Do you identify with it or not identify with it? What did Matsu say? When he was asked by Bhajan, do you identify or not identify with the practice? What did he do? Put the whisk down. Did he identify with it or not identify with it? What? Identify with it? No. Well, we don't know if he did. Actually, he didn't say. He didn't say, no, I didn't identify.

[74:29]

Or I do identify it. with the wisdom. Okay? That's what he did. That's what he did. And then the disciple asked him a very good question, and he put it down. Okay? And he said, now when you have a chance, what are you going to do? So the disciple raised it up. And he asked the disciple a good question that the disciple asked. The disciple... Then they teach you something else. Okay? That yelp, that shout, that yelp. Okay? So, now does that, does that open up your present? Are these stories opening up your present?

[75:23]

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