If you went ahead and tried to have the baby, the result of that might be that you would be killed if you had a baby in a certain way. You might say, well, I'm going to have a baby. But you might have a baby with the wrong person. Somebody said that when people found out who you had a baby with, they would kill you and the baby. Maybe the person, the man, too. So that would be like your level of surveillance would be so strong that the overall state of consciousness would not really be good, even though it definitely had the thought of doing good. It's pretty hard, however, to have the thought of doing harm and have that accord with self-respect and decorum. And if that doesn't happen, you're gonna have to do something, there's gonna have to be some spectacular, another mental factor to pull us up into wholesomeness.

[01:11]

I don't know if you're following this. I've got this kind of picture of a mind, you know, and I'm sort of concocting different states of mind here in my mind. And, yes, what did you say? I was just wondering if you could repeat that last example that you were obviously playing in your own mind about one thing, and I spaced out a little bit. Would you just repeat that? Well, the last thing I said was... ...concept and the intention of literally, you know, literally, I want to do good, I think this would be good. That could be in your mind. And that could accord with a sense of self-respect that you think you're a person who wants to do good and that would harmonize with that. Also, you want to do good that would work for other people, that would harmonize with the quorum. So you have those... of a whole state of consciousness there, okay? But if there was also a strong factor of ignorance and confusion... you could do something which is quite harmful. And you could say, well, it wasn't the intention of the mind, but actually, the intention of the mind doesn't just mean the thought of the... like, I'm going to do good.

[02:21]

It means the actual trajectory in terms of consequence. So, for example, I don't know what religious group you want to take, but some religious groups have this thing, I want to do good... And they don't notice that the good they want to do, they just sort of don't notice. They say, that's okay. They don't notice that. And they don't notice that that will lead to killing living beings and then getting killed. They don't notice that because they just notice in this part. So if you had violence in your mind, compartmentalize that away from your intention to do good and your sense of self-respect. The actual tendency of the mind would be to do violence. It's got this nice label on it called doing good. And that doing good harmonizes with other elements, namely self-respect and decorum.

[03:23]

But the decorum you didn't check out with the person you're going to kill, for example. So that would be a very unwholesome state of mind which has these nice self-righteous elements in it. And self-righteousness means you don't have to examine yourself, right? But on the other side, if you had... You're going to knock your water over. You're kicking the water glass. On the other hand, If you want to do harm, and that's your intention to do harm, and you don't have self-respect, and you think, that's no problem, and you don't care about the consequences, I don't know how you could think of a good act. Under those circumstances, I don't know what motivates you to be... Where would doing good come to that?

[04:30]

It seems fairly unlikely that you'd think of anything very good to do with actually the intention to do something bad. How could you do it at the same time? Unless you were in the company of bees, so to speak, where doing real good would be doing bad. Or doing really bad would be doing good. Maybe that would be it. Maybe that would be it. But you wouldn't care about getting along with the other thieves. That would be the part that would make it harder to do. But decorum is always a function. And you're saying there's no sense of decorum. In the concoction I'm making, they're among thieves, right? You're one of the thieves. When you're among thieves, there's a certain decorum. which you take into account. If you don't steal enough stuff, the other thieves may give you a hard time. You're aware of that. But you might say, and also, you're one of the thieves, and for you, self-respect would be to be a good thief.

[05:37]

But in this case, I say you don't have any self-respect. You don't even want to be a good thief. You don't even care what the other thieves think. Okay? So then you're contemplating doing a bad thing. But what's a bad thing? A bad thing among this group might be to not steal anything. Okay? You're doing a bad thing. Maybe this is too reversed for you to follow. No, I've got... So then what would stop you, you know, from doing that bad thing of not stealing? Okay? And would not stealing then be a good thing in that case? I don't think so. Under the cases of, you know, not caring, not having, you know, having no self-respect and not caring about what other thieves think, not to mention you don't care what non-thieves think, then sort of going against the thieves' code and not stealing because you don't care about what they say and you don't think that wouldn't be a good thing.

[06:41]

They'll just be not stealing something for a second. But then how about if you're just going to steal and you don't care about the other thieves, too? Now, that's a bad thing. So it seems to me that the holding your... the... cause and effect is the key thing. And if you don't have that, I don't think you can do anything good. Really. In terms of your evolution, spiritually, I don't think you can do anything good. I think it's... I can't imagine how it can happen. Do you have self-respect? Do you care about how you relate to other people? Are you taking that into account? Which is cause and effect. Which is relationship. So, if you don't take that into account, then I think you're basically going to do something which is going to throw you deeper into not taking things into account. You're going to get more out of touch. You're going to get more isolated.

[07:44]

You're going to get less sense of interdependence. You're going to get more, what do you call it, entity-oriented, and you're going to still do karma based on that, but not care. Observe, and then just deepen the habit of selfishness, isolation, independence, karma, misery, and have no care about even that you're suffering, because you're so bad off. Yes? So self-respect and decorum is present in every wholesome state. And the absence of self-respect and decorum is present, but the absence of those two are in every unwholesome state? No. No. But if they are present, it's definite. You can be sure it's unwholesome state if they're present. You can be sure, sir. It's definite. They're necessary and sufficient. No, they're sufficient for any unwholesome state.

[08:45]

As soon as you don't have self-respect, and you don't have decorum, you definitely have an unwholesome state. Because basically you have the worst possible condition, and that is the person doesn't have any interest in pain. They don't think karma matters at all. So the absence of those for sure is unwholesome, but they could also be present. You could also have an unwholesome state where one or both of those is present. You feel bad, but you're still doing a bad thing. It's not as bad. You could say, geez, this really isn't so good that I'm doing this, but I am doing this, and here I am killing somebody or killing something, and I really feel ashamed, but I'm still doing it. the shame isn't sufficient to turn it into a wholesome state. Even if you're not doing something bad, doing something relatively good, okay, and in that case you're not ashamed of it because you feel okay about the act you're contemplating, even that isn't sufficient if you have all kinds of other distractions and so on, and in fact you don't even notice it which is harmful.

[10:01]

Like, you know, I don't know what, you know, like, I tell this story about this, uh, this guy came, this student at Green Gulch, he was a young man, and he, I knew him pretty well, and he came back to Green Gulch to visit one time, and he was, he was in the office, and he was crying, you know. I was talking to him, and, and I, I, I think, I don't know what I did, but I just sort of went like this, and gave him a hug, and then a couple days later, or sometimes later, he used to call up and tell me, he said, he said, you know, you shouldn't have done that, or, you know, you have to ask me before you do that, or something like that. ...pattern in my background, and, you know, that really bothered me. So, to me, it was really surprising because I thought I was just being comforting to this guy. But, um... It's, you know, wholesomeness is a little bit, sometimes more complicated than that. Sometimes you have to do something helpful to someone. and maybe say, would you like a hug?

[11:05]

That might have, you know, for him, that's what he needed to be asked beforehand. But, you know, it kind of hurt him, kind of scared him. But it also, maybe not, maybe, because consequences actually were that I got kind of hurt. by him telling me that I, you know, I shouldn't have done that because she was like, oh, jeez, I'm trying to help you. So it kind of, it would have been more skillful maybe and I wouldn't have got hurt. It would have gone more smoothly if I... So you learn. I thought it was helpful that I got feedback, you know, and with this person anyway, why not everybody? It doesn't take that long to ask. Usually people aren't that much for her, you get a hug. So... So, you know, self-respect, decorum, that all seemed fine. I wanted to help him, that seemed fine. I wasn't trying to get a, you know, sneak a cup of feel.

[12:09]

I wasn't doing that at all. You know, it was pretty good, except I didn't check, which is a little bit more wholesome. Then it would have been probably definitely wholesome. Still, since, but still, you see, because I was trying to do good, When he told me that it wasn't quite right, I learned something. If I wasn't trying to do good, and he told me that I missed it, I wouldn't have learned much. I would have thought, yeah, I thought that was pretty gross, too, and, you know, you thought so, too, so, so what? Maybe a little. Except it didn't, you know, I was, I, wouldn't I have cared that it would lead to bad consequences in the second case? First case, you see, it was an experiment, and I didn't expect it to lead to bad consequences. The second case... would I not even have cared that led to bad consequences? When you try to do good, you care, you don't want it to lead to bad consequences. That's your point. And if it does, you're doing something. If you don't care, you're doing things you don't care that lead to bad consequences, good consequences.

[13:12]

Not much learning there. Could you explain just what you mean by decorum? Decorum... I say decorum and self-respect because they're less loaded. The way that it's usually translated is shame for self-respect and fear of blame for decorum. It has more of a bitter quality to both of them. It's not just decorum like, oh, I'd like to get along. You're actually afraid of what people will do to you that they'll blame you and punish you if you don't accord with their standards. But that's... decorum's the more mild way to put it, more... in the forms. Restraint. Huh? Some kind of restraint. No, it's not so much restraint. It's more like according with what you sense would harmonize with people. Like decorum in the Zendo is to... is to enter a certain way and move in a certain way.

[14:18]

And... in which some people feel fairly strongly that they're afraid that somebody's going to punish them if they don't follow the forms. When I think of the quorum, I think like rules of protocol. Yeah, protocol, rules, yeah, that's what it is, yeah. And the quorum means, I think partly it means the rules, but also part of it, in other words, it can be, I think the quorum can be maybe a verb almost. No, maybe not. But anyway, it applies to your behavior and also applies to the rule. There's the decorum of this room, and then you can also act with decorum. You can do, and it's also the rules. But also, this other way is, when you do that shame is an element in a wholesome state in the sense of you have a sense of shame. You have a sense.

[15:21]

These acts are beneath me. I would be ashamed if I did those things. You have that sense. And then it's not a wholesome state if you go against that sense of shame. Not wholesome. Usually. You have to think of a big positive to go against your sense of shame. But then it wouldn't go against it because... You'd be doing something positive, so that's what you want to do. So, actually, the shame doesn't go with unwholesomeness. This kind of observation, you see, is spiritually evolving because you're examining and you're looking at your behavior in relationship to interdependence. You're starting to drag yourself up out of karma. by observing the mind, the mind which is into karma. Wholesome acts not only produce good results, but also require attention to the quality of your consciousness.

[16:23]

And at least they have the good result of that you're paying attention to what you're doing. Wholesome acts where you're not paying attention are low-level wholesome acts. High-level wholesome acts You're really skillful and you're really understanding what's going on with your mind. Ideally, you're doing this effortlessly. You're not making a big effort to look at what you're doing. You're naturally quite easily aware. about this field of blame and the examples you gave before of decorum. And I think that in the Metta Sutta, it sets a higher standard for decorum. Just don't do what people around you do, but do nothing that the wise would approve. Yeah, right. So invited wise, I think it means people who are spiritually accomplished, people who are on a high spiritual level.

[17:36]

Yeah, so that would be decorum, a stricter or bigger, more comprehensive sense of decorum. Because that's being addressed in notes, so there's a different standard that somebody might teach it. Yeah, but basically I would say that what we're heading for in this practice is shame on a more comprehensive scale. And it's for shame on a more comprehensive scale. I think I read, what was his name, Rudolf Bultmann, he was a Christian theologian, he was talking about shame, and he said shame is how we feel when we're separated from God. that we're separated from God. That's a comprehensive high standard for shame and self-respect. In fact, a lot of us feel that being alienated from God is a shameful situation. I don't know a lot of us, but I mean a lot of people, that's what religion is.

[18:40]

There's a sense of shame in being alienated from God. In Buddhism they would say being alienated from what's happening. Being out of tune with what's actually going on. it's kind of, we feel, we feel ashamed of it. We sense that we could be in accord with what's happening. And we feel problem, pain around not living up to that potential. And that's just, that's internal. Whether anybody knows about it or us, nobody has to tell us about it. We feel that way. Yes? You mentioned cause and effect as a relationship. Mm-hmm. Um... I want to understand how cause and effect are different. How cause and effect is different from karma? It's not different from karma. Karma is part of the cause and effect process for human beings. There's a causing effect, there's a law of causing effect, there's a karmic law of causing effect.

[19:45]

Karma is one of the types of phenomena which has a causing effect story. Chemical reactions are not karma. Chemical reactions in your body, for example, are not karmic. They don't evolve spiritually from the chemical reactions in your body. So you can evolve just as well with malfunctioning chemical reactions as, you know, kind of harmonious chemical reactions. Chemical reactions are not really like spiritual evolution material. Well, there's a cause and effect of chaitanya. There's chaitonic cause and effect, okay? But there's also cause and effect of chaitanya. Like neural impulses and chemical reactions and mechanical movement of your body and glacial movement and the tides are not

[20:56]

karmic cause and effect. Is there something, is there karma that isn't cause and effect? Is there karma that isn't cause and effect? No. Karma is just a special example of cause and effect, a very important example, because the way karma works is that it tends, unless it's wholesome, to obscure its own processes. And also, you can't be involved in karma at all unless you're a little bit obscured about what's going on. But I mean fundamentally, a little bit fundamentally off. And for us, human beings, if we are involved in karma and don't understand karma, then that lack of understanding of karma blocks our vision of all kinds of other, all other kinds of

[21:58]

Why don't you use the word relationship? For cause and effect? Yes. Because cause and effect is a relationship. To each other. To each other, yeah. Would you stop using the word life? Can you stop using the why please thing with me? Just watch how I use it. That's better than trying to figure out. No one knows. No one knows. I did that. I missed the last word you said on this. It tends, karma, it tends, unless it's very wholesome to obscure its own functioning, its own process. If we can understand karmic functioning, it opens our eyes.

[23:05]

And karma is rather a gross thing for us, so it's not too difficult to observe it. As you observe karma more and more carefully, your eyes open. When your eyes open, you can start seeing the cause and effect of other things too. The cause and effect process that applies to your own moral behavior applies to everything in the universe. So you don't just understand yourself and become free of your own little game, you understand everything, which is quite a nice thing. But if you don't understand your own grubby little delusion process, you don't understand other things very well either. Now you say, what about deluded scientists? Don't they understand pretty well? They do pretty good under the circumstances, I would say. But they would understand much better if they were enlightened as to their own behavior, because then what they... I think they can see much more clearly. So it's a good deal anyway to watch your karma, and to see the relationship between your actions and your results, and see the relationships between ignorance and karma.

[24:15]

All that's helpful, okay? But that's just a... of what's going on throughout the whole universe. We play it out in this little karmic stage, but it's an example of what's happening everywhere. It seems like when I look at my mind, it's either very subtle, either shame or arrogance, I can kind of like, just at the point of like when shame just disappears and it flips over into a subtle kind of arrogance. And is there even a place that's between them? Or just... Maybe it's like I'm looking for them too closely so that they appear. If you've got, if you've got karmic consciousness,

[25:16]

It's okay if there's shame there. All the time. It doesn't do you any harm. This shame isn't a debilitating thing. It's just a sense of, an accurate sense that you're a little bit out of touch with things. It's kind of painful. Huh? It's kind of painful. So, that's the deal. And it's going to be that way. It's going to be that way until you understand this whole process and understand that you don't have this independent existence. It's just something that we dream up. And the spur to keep meditating until we realize that fully is the pain, shame. And actually the pain of shame is not quite as bad as the pain of arrogance. It feels like it's being in the right direction.

[26:18]

Isn't the pain of arrogance related to shame? Arrogance isn't painful. It's a shame about being arrogant. It's painful, isn't it? Oh, right, yeah. Arrogance is perfectly comfortable. It's like you feel ashamed. And also, it's not decorous to be arrogant, right? You're not supposed to be arrogant, so... You're afraid other people are going to beat you up, and you... In retrospect, in the next moment, when you see the arrogance, then it's back to the shame again. Yeah, or you could even feel a little shame, you know, while you're just sort of enjoying the arrogance. It's hard to have a flat-out, you know... But there are these moments of glory, I guess, where you're so proud of yourself, you know, in order that that moment said, I came, I saw, I conquered. At that moment, maybe there wasn't enough shame. You know, there was that moment. Glory does sometimes happen in the world. Like when Lena had her baby, you know, and grabbed it.

[27:27]

Did you hear about that? Lena Robinson had her baby and she delivered it squatting. And then when it came out, she reached down and picked it up herself and brought it up to herself. So there are moments like that. Yeah, so I'm a little arrogant, so what? I'm the big mama. I think it's okay to delight in your own as well as others' deeds. It's not necessarily arrogance, you know, not necessarily, no. And there is such a thing as spiritual pride. Delighting in other people's good deeds has nothing to do with arrogance. That's quite different than delighting in your own. Quite different. The difference is to bring it to yourself. Delighting in other people's good deeds is a nice antidote to arrogance.

[28:29]

It doesn't exactly put you down, it just puts them up, and then relatively you're down here and they're up there, that's all. So that's not arrogance, delighting in other people's good deeds. Bringing the good deed to yourself, abrogating, that's what arrogance means, you abrogate the good to yourself. And so you can delight in your good deeds without abrogating, to sort of say, wow, you know, kind of like you're a spectator watching yourself. Okay? You say, I did that? Or, you know, that happened? Somebody did that? Who did that? Well, and then other people helped you. That's a different thing, though. No, that's a different thing, because when you delight in other people's good deeds, you aren't necessarily delighting them. You could. Those are two different species of delight. But when you do a good deed... Just a second.

[29:32]

Did you get that point? That to delight in a person's deeds is fine. It's not arrogant. But sometimes you're not... You're delighting in how everybody helps the person do something. Those both have nothing to do with arrogance. To see a deed that was done by you, supposedly, or not even done by you, but somehow, you know, a cup is put down skillfully and people say you did it and you... a photograph or a motion picture of somebody putting a cup down, you don't even know what you're hanging, and you delight in it. Okay? That would be delight in your own deeds. But you wouldn't know what your own deeds. When you take the skill and bring it to yourself, at that point it's error. Okay? And that's not okay. That's... delusion for you to abrogate the goodness to yourself, even though you did it by worldly standards.

[30:37]

Spiritual pride is a different thing. Spiritual pride is not abrogation of goodness to yourself. Spiritual pride is, you know, pride in practice. with determination to practice it. That's spiritual pride. Not abrogating the good to yourself. It sounds more like support than pride. You're supporting yourself rather than being proud of yourself. That's what it sounds like to me. Oh, you say you support yourself, but you're not being proud of your practice. Supporting your practice as opposed to being proud. Pride, in a way, arrogance means to abrogate. to bring it to yourself. And is it possible to delight in your own actions without bringing it to yourself? I think there's a way to do that. Tricky, but... Yes?

[31:46]

I'm really having trouble with this. Now that you've loaded these words up with shame and fear of blame... You don't need to go back to self-respect and decorum. Okay, so... Because maintaining the... One can have self-respect and choose, it seems, not to maintain a decorum that is unhealthy. You say it one more time, please. It seems that one can have self-respect and choose not to maintain oneself in harmony with a decorum that is unhealthy. Definitely. That would be a... That would be a different kind of decorum. You'd be switching, rather than get along with this group of people, that's kind of relating to what Stuart's saying, rather than get along with this group of people, you may say, I'm not going to get along with these people, but I'll do this thing which the wise would approve. Is that what you mean?

[32:49]

Yeah. Like civil disobedience? Yeah. Civil disobedience would be an example of that. So when I do that and not be self-righteous, then I don't have it in choir. Yeah. Because otherwise you could really get into pretty interesting... If you had a wise person nearby, you could ask them what they thought of it. Say, now I think this is what most people want me to do in this case, but I think you might want me to do something different. Is that right? They might say, mm-hmm. Or they might say, no, go along with them. I approve. So sometimes the wise would approve and the whatever you want to call people, they approve and you thought that going along with them wouldn't be wise or wouldn't be good because you have a higher standard than the society. Like some things in our society, people don't mind, you know. Like certain kinds of cheating, you know,

[33:50]

a lot of people you might hang out with might feel okay about. So in terms of decorum, there'd be no blame outside. That's why sometimes in the inside there's shame. And usually when the inside there's shame and outside there's no blame, the people outside aren't really like spiritual mentors and, you know, paragons of virtue. You're not thinking about them. Usually those people would not allow some little kinds of cheating. Some things are kind of generally okay in our society that aren't so... Well, like, you know, gossip is generally okay in our society. Idle chatter is generally okay in our society at large. Talking about other people's faults is generally okay in a lot of situations. But, you know, you might yourself... feel ashamed of that, of doing those things, even though most people don't mind.

[34:56]

But if you ask a wise person, a wise person might say, I think your sense of self-control, I think those things are not so good. I would support you, you know. This is your own decorum. But you're living with people who don't have very high standards for behaviors, so it's good that you don't. Just go for it. And sometimes it's the reverse. Sometimes you think it's okay, and you're quite surprised that other people don't. Like at Zen Center, killing animals, killing almost any kind of animal at this particular time at Zen Center, there's not much support. There's actually some kind of horror in a lot of people if you kill animals, even little tiny ones in this particular community. So decorum around here is like radical not killing. And foods where animals are mistreated to raise the food is not okay in this community.

[36:05]

But if somebody from this community moved into another community, there the decorum wouldn't, you know, the standards of the group wouldn't apply. They would have higher standards in there. So you need both. You can't depend on the outside necessarily. And that's part of the struggle, I think, is if you feel like your society is not strict enough, and that's what people want to know, what would a wise person say under these circumstances? I have my sense. Am I being too strict? Unrealistically strict? A wise person might say, yeah, I see your point, but, you know... You're being too strict right now. This is too much. But they might not. They might say, go for it. That's okay. You can be the strict. It's fine. You can be the one for now. It's good. But I think your main point is inquire. Don't be unilateral about this stuff.

[37:11]

Check with people. Talk it over. And that's part of figuring these things out. is discussing these things, and that's part of what Miffin was saying. Meditating on your impulses for a long time. And sometimes talk about your impulses before you act, too. Tell somebody, I'm thinking of doing this, what do you think? I think you could find some friends who would talk to you about these things. I'm not saying that's easy, though, because it's possible that your friend will say, don't do it. And then you have kind of another problem. There's a lot of people who, you know, if you ask them and then they don't want to do it, it's going to really be bad to do it after they say no. And we have that problem at Zen Center. There's various things we do around here. and think, should we go talk to the county supervisors before we do it? Should we talk to certain people in the building department before we build a building? If we build it and they don't like it, that's one thing.

[38:16]

But if we go and ask them and they say they don't like it, then it's another. Various authority figures, questions, and then going ahead and do it, you feel like you can't do it. But I like it to be. What I would like is that if I was in a position where someone was talking to me, that they could ask me and I could disagree, but they wouldn't feel like now that I disagree, they can't do it. They still could do it. It's different, but they still can do it. In some ways, I wouldn't hold it against the person that they asked me and went against my counsel. I try not to do that. As a matter of fact, I try to reward them by letting them go against my counsel without punishing them for going against me. But a lot of authority figures won't do it that way. If you ask them, they'll have more problem with you. Here's the way I feel. If somebody's going to do this act, like the act, if they ask me, I feel better about them doing what I don't like than if they didn't ask me.

[39:27]

If they ask me and I told them I don't like it, and then they do, I feel better than if they didn't ask me and did it. Whereas what people are used to is if you ask the person and they don't like it and you do it, they like that and you ask them. Because you're not respecting what they said. Yeah, whatever. That's how they look at it. Yeah. Or you're not under their control. But they don't necessarily expect you to be under their control if you never even ask them. Because then you can say, I didn't know you didn't want it, so I wasn't rebelling. Stay away from somebody like that, right? But that's not so good. But in the conversation, in that conversation, are you actually telling them what to do? No, I'm telling them, no, I'm just saying, I'm saying, I don't want you to do that. So you're not necessarily exploring your motivation with them? No, yeah, I definitely explore their motivation.

[40:31]

Definitely. And that's usually when I find out that I don't want them to do it. A lot of good things, people often come and tell me about bad things they want to do. They almost never come and talk to me about bad things they want to do. But they talk to me about good things, but then when I say, what's the point of that, I find out there's no point from my point of view. And I say, since there's no point, I don't want you to do it. And sometimes they go ahead and do it. But I... that I would have liked it better, that I like it better this way than not even being consulted when I did it. But I do like it better. Occasionally I have to go ahead and do what I said I didn't like in order to find out that you don't get punished. Unfortunately, not unfortunately, but the way it turns out is that oftentimes when I say I don't like it, they look at their motivation again and they Maybe they see something they didn't see before. So then oftentimes they don't do it anyway.

[41:32]

From the side of acting, do you... I don't expect us to enjoy going to consult with someone about our actions, but do you trust that way? And do you have a person in your life that you consult with about your karma? And that's not necessarily pleasant or something you might relish doing. But I think most people need that. it complements your life. To go through that process of saying, I'm thinking, here's impulse X, what do you think? And then from the point of view of being the person who's asked, from both sides, but anyway, I'll go back to the person being asked, you say,

[42:44]

I think what's really wholesome and helpful is you say what you think without trying to get them to do what you think. You say, I really don't want you to do it. Now, if you just don't want them to say, I don't want you to do it, but if you really don't want them to do it, you say, I really don't want you to do it. Now, it turns out that with many people, if you really don't want them to do it, it would be more likely to be able to get them to do it if you said, I sort of don't want to do it. Then it would be more likely that they wouldn't do it. If you tell them how you really feel, meaning that you really don't want to, they're more likely to go ahead and do it in reaction. But anyway, that's where you're at, is you really don't like it. In terms of controlling, that wouldn't be such a good remark. But in terms of telling them who you are, that's the honest answer. It's just oftentimes the one that won't get them to do what you want. But the dishonest answer often will control them.

[43:53]

Because they'll get deceived, they'll get confused, you know. Because you'll lie to them, and they'll sense that they're confused. Dissonance there, and then they'll get confused, and it won't help. Yes? I have an advice to want to stay away from people who claim, I think, They have bad karma. That's a general impulse you have? General and specific to humans. Well, do you have a specific example? Okay. Not returning a phone call to somebody that I don't think... I don't want to talk to them. Okay. By returning the phone call, it will not be... This will not be supportive of them because what they might... I guess I'm... I got it.

[44:59]

I got it. Projecting, but anyway. Is that your feeling? Your feeling is you don't want to return the phone call to this person, okay? You know what? I have that feeling too sometimes. So now what do you want to talk about? It's not helpful. Or is it helpful? It's not helpful. Is that helpful? Is it helpful to turn the phone off? Is it a helpful impulse, did you say? No, is acting out an impulse? But don't you want to know about whether the impulse is helpful? Are impulses helpful? Aren't you interested in knowing whether impulses are helpful? Sure. Impulses are mental karma. All right. I don't want to turn the call. That's karma. I do not want to return the call. That's mental karma. That's like, I want to return the call. Or I want to hurt this person. Or I want to help this person. Or I want to give my whole life to this person. That's mental karma. A phone call is mental karma.

[46:02]

Now, do you want to know if that's helpful? Yeah. You do? Or are you just trying to please me? No, no, no, I do. That was part of my question. I don't think it's helping them. Before we get into the action, whether we're going to call them or not call them, not calling them, you don't have to get into that, because that goes on forever, right? But calling them. So you got this call. You get a call, and the question should return. Now we have this wonderful Buddhist thing called the answer machine. So you get these messages. First it says, I want to... I have this impulse to get this tick off your shoulder. Is it a tick? Yeah. Was it a wholesome impulse? Did you check it out before you did it? I did. Okay. I would say that that impulse, not to call that person deaf, I don't yet know whether it could be useful. She's asking me now, but she's talking about it, so I can talk to her about, well, who is this and what's the problem, right?

[47:15]

Because somebody's been calling me, and I've been wondering, the last time the person called, the person said, I'd like to know if you're, like, never going to answer this call. Uh-oh. I mean, are you never going to make this call? Or is this like I'm calling a wrong number? Or, you know, shouldn't I be calling? So I asked my wife, what should I do? And I tried to figure out, what's the reason for me not wanting to call back? And she made various comments, you know, about how to do it. But I did actually discuss it with somebody else about whether I should return this call or whether I should have Christine return the call. laughter laughter And if Christina returns it, and he instructs us to Christina about returning it. So this person's now on this little list of names, you know, to call. Or to discuss how to call, or what to, you know. So there's some self-preservation there, but it's also like, what is it about me that I call?

[48:21]

What is it that I feel funny about? And so to talk to somebody else about it, like bring it out in front where you can start to see Maybe it really is just self-preservation and it's not that good and it really won't hurt me. But I just sort of like, I'm so concerned about myself and so on and so forth that I don't care much about this person. Maybe then you sort of say, well, maybe I'll get over it and call them. But maybe I should address this problem with them right off. So bringing it out in front and discussing might help, like you're doing right now. And if we could discuss it more, maybe you'd get more sense of whether actually somebody else might say... And I would think the person who talked to you about it, like in the case of my wife, she's a psychotherapist, she wants to help people, so I'm not asking somebody like some mean person who doesn't care about people. I'm asking somebody who I think is realistic because she does work with people who have a range of difficulties.

[49:25]

And she does set limits with people. So she wants to help people, but she's not unrealistic. So somebody like that. Or you could talk to two people. One person that's a little bit unrealistic and totally loving and just... themselves, and then talk to somebody else who's somewhat conservative and sets limits. Talk to both of them and try to figure out what to do in that space. Bring it up. Like you just did. And then the impulse could be quite helpful to eliminate your own process. And to see, try to find out what it is that's bothering you. I haven't yet figured out what's bothering me about this. There's something bothering me about it. It seems... It seems like a waste of time somehow. It seems like... support and that is in the end unsupportable or something or has to be changed to a different a different way of talking the different you know what would it be and

[50:29]

And I get telephone calls from people sometimes who are suffering from paranoid persecution stuff. And so how long should I talk to the person? Is it any good to talk to the person? I'm not sure. In some of those cases, instead of saying, you know, you're just crazy, I sometimes... You know, if I were feeling that way, I would try to practice patience with it. And then the person says, well, yeah? In this discussion about phone calls, I sometimes have found the same thing. And although I investigate them, sometimes I don't find any kind of answer or something. You investigate through impulses, you mean? Right. But then what I'm reminded about is things like odors. Odors? Odors. So some people will smell a particular odor and it will do... And other people smell the same odor and they'll like it.

[51:46]

Yes. And there's not a logical explanation for those two because the way the odors work in our bodies is a kind of hard wiring that goes with it. Mm-hmm. So there does seem to be a certain curve in my life in which a logical explanation actually is not the accurate explanation. But that's logical right there. Yes, that's right. I'm buying a logic to something that may not actually be logical. So it seems like I find I run out at some point and go, well, this is just one of the things. It's something that's happening. It's like the odors. Can I respond to the odor? Yeah, so what do you do now? When you sense that it's an odor kind of thing. So one way to do it would be, maybe that's what it is. So I could say to this person, is there some kind of way for me to say, you stink. That seems like difficult to handle. Another way to do it would be to say, which you sometimes find in the text, this may sound strange to you, but I sense...

[52:54]

that we don't have a spiritual affinity. And I think it would be better if you found another affinity with. Now, what my wife suggested is, this person lives far away. My wife suggested, why don't you tell her that you feel that it would be better if she worked with a teacher who lives in the same general vicinity as her, so she can meet them rather than having these telephone calls. And then I thought, yeah, that's sort of... But now when I'm talking to you, I'm getting a feeling like more maybe what I'm feeling is that I don't have a spiritual affinity with this person. And I should tell her that. Before she moves up here. It's being fair and honest. It's also being fair and honest so that you're helping her in finding someone that maybe she does click with instead of clinging to you thinking that she's going to make this work no matter what. Right, yeah. So talking to you, I think maybe that's kind of where it's at.

[53:58]

In some sense, that's a... I don't think this person stinks, by the way. But I do feel something funny. And... Yeah. And if she was here, it would be different somehow. The kind of affinity that I need with a person who lives far away is different than the kind of affinity of somebody who's nearby. It's a different kind of affinity. There's some people who live far away, and the telephone works somehow. There's other people who the telephone... There's no affinity for telephone relationship. So I think maybe that's what I'm going to tell her, is I'm going to say, you know, I'll talk to her for a while and then say, you know, but I feel that really you should try to find someone nearby. That this doesn't work for me. Yes, Grace? I was also going to say that this is part of, I hope that you have this conversation with her. Yeah. Yeah. Not Christine. Not Christine, no. No, it's... Yeah, I wouldn't ask Christina to tell Chris if I might.

[55:03]

It seems, you know, it's easy to say this to somebody else. It's not necessarily easy to do this yourself. But it seems like the thing to do all along would have been to have said, you know, I have a call. I don't know what to do. I'm not sure what to do with this situation. as opposed to just letting messages stack up, because it kind of builds a head of steam. The situation gets pressurized. And then when you let whatever the truth emerge, it is that you do figure out. And it's more of a charge, I would think. If I run the receiving end of it, it's very frustrating to... for me to make a phone call and get nothing. Make a phone call, get nothing. Sometimes you get a hint. Well, see, another characteristic is that I don't answer my telephone calls. So, that's context. This person got my telephone numbers in there. Because I cannot... If people call me, they're going to be frustrated because I can't answer all the calls.

[56:12]

That's why I have helpers, because they can answer pretty fast. And they can answer a lot faster than me, too, because it's easier for Christina to talk to a person about blah, blah, blah. When I'm talking on the phone, they've got me. And to say, just, you know, please, please, let me tell you that, you know, I don't know how to, you know, blah, blah. That's not necessarily, that takes some time. Sure. So, in fact, I don't want to be in a position where people are calling me directly on a basis with me. But she got my telephone number somehow, so she's calling me all the time. Mm-hmm. And she's already been successful catching me already, you know, ten times or so, and talking to me. But this is over years, right? I've known this person for a long time, but I'm feeling like I'm feeling. Yeah, I wouldn't pass that message on to an assistant. Although, I mean, I haven't been, but now that I think of it, maybe.

[57:13]

Maybe he could just live my life for me. Wait, wait, wait. I have this friend, I love this story, who is a body worker, and she was teaching a course in Switzerland, I think it was Switzerland or Germany, and there was a woman in the course who said, my life is a mess, my husband, my kids. My friend who was the teacher said, I'll go home for you. The woman said, you're kidding, really? And she said, yeah, I will. And she did. And she just went home and she took over the entire family situation for a week. Incredible. It was incredible. And she was incredible telling the story. Spontaneously came up that she was going to take over this woman's life for a week. Just for who knew what reason. Simply because the woman was asking for it. Let you know. I'm glad somebody did that once.

[58:15]

I noticed, again, in some of the teachings and such, that sometimes I'm in a particular state where I can't deal with one caller, I don't want it, but it doesn't mean it's that state for the next 50 years or something like that. So even just to say I can't cope with this now for the next six months or ten years, whatever it is, there's some kind of... First of all, for me, hearing it, but also having other people receive it when I say the same thing, it feels like there's a process that's happening, not something that I've put in concrete. And then there's something that starts to be a situation. I mean, who knows? It may not be forever. There's a release that you can kind of deal with. So there's sort of this, for now, I mean, for now, it's changes from person to person. I can't talk to you right now. I'll call you in two days. So there's a time frame on it.

[59:19]

Makes it sound like life is life-ending or something. Mm-hmm. Christina Ann, was there somebody... Christina and Edie. Is anybody on the list? Christina and Edie. Okay. What was the story you told about your daughter, about trying to hook you? Yes. Getting really frustrated because she could be well off, right? Yes. And there's something that denies me from... in a sense that I think at some point it's very necessary to not be a function of the person. So maybe for your daughter it was not being able to feel where you fall for her.

[60:25]

made her see only as function, not as person, and that's quite frightening. Not as a human being, because she would feel like she could get hurt. And I think if someone calls and calls, it gets a sense something's not working, but all they know is try again the same way, try again the same way. I think what is necessary is that It's an answer. It's so honest that it goes through, and then it can be taken. Instead of trying, I don't know quite what, but somehow it seems related in that you can answer when you find really what your answer is. Then we can change the situation.

[61:29]

So instead of having a kind of answer that tries to deal with the situation that doesn't quite seem right there, I think there's a meaning that the person is right there, totally. Does that make sense? Not yet. Can anybody else get it? Again. And I don't know what that is. I mean, because that's you and that person. I don't know what that is, but I have a sense of working with clients and working by myself with people as their client for a student.

[62:32]

But there is a place where something can be said that this doesn't work for me. That is so weak and so respectful because it's honest. It's not saying, Okay, just stop there. Stop, okay? There's a place where you say, this isn't working for me. That's honest. And then, what if you don't know how it's not working? So even saying, it's not working for me and I can't be like my mom, is already a big relief. And then on top of that, because it's not working for you, you can't help her. The way you want to help her suggests that she finds someone else. So she can get the help that she's looking for. That seems, uh... That seems kind.

[63:39]

I have a little problem with it, even though I thought of it before. Uh... Maybe I just have to have a problem with it. But the problem was, it's kind of getting into the thing that doesn't work a little bit. But maybe that's a compromise. Because I don't want to get into this thing and make the suggestions to her. Maybe that is good anyway. The thing I'm saying... Somehow the thing of saying, I feel there's not an affinity here, is a little bit different from saying it doesn't work for me. But it's not so much it doesn't work for me, I like it. Maybe it is working for me really well, but I don't like it. Maybe this is really good, but I don't like it. And I don't see what's good about, you know... So to say it doesn't work, it's a little bit like when you're talking to somebody and you want to get away. Now, I never say that.

[64:41]

I never say I got to go. Because I almost never have to go, except to the toilet. And even then, I don't have to go. I could go right there, you know. Except I want to go. But maybe it's that you can't see how you can help. Yeah, but there's a lot of other people. But I, you know, I'm waiting. I'm willing to wait. Of course, I've known her a really long time, too. And she's living far away, you see. That's part of it. It's the distance and knowing her quite well that gets me to the point of being able maybe to say something really difficult. The difficulty is pretty clear. So that it doesn't work for me isn't quite honest. But it doesn't seem right that she got your number either. That doesn't seem, you know, she's taken a different tactic as well. Yeah, but she doesn't know that she's taken a different tactic. Somehow, somehow... She's not working with you on this street.

[65:43]

Somehow, not working for me isn't... Maybe, how do I come to say it's not working for me? I don't... It's something I don't want to do. And I don't sense that it's good to do it, but it's good to do something. It looks like there's something good for me to do. What's the truth? So is it good for me to say, you know, I don't want to talk to you. I don't know why I had this strange feeling, I don't want to talk to you. That sounds kind of mystical, right? Maybe that's good. I don't know, but it's kind of like, for some reason or other, I don't want to talk to you. That's where I'm at. That's the truest thing. I'm calling you to tell you that. I don't want you to sort of not know. I do care about you. And I don't want you to keep calling and wondering what's going on and whether there's something wrong with my machine.

[66:49]

Actually, I don't want to talk to you. That's the raw, stupid truth. So what can I do better than that? What about saying that you don't feel that you can guide her anymore or that you can work successfully with her from this long distance? Well, maybe I'm not sure I couldn't. I just don't want to. I don't want to. I don't want to. It's hard to do it from a distance, actually. There's various problems there. So what's wrong with saying you tried and it's not working and you've got a solution and you think that you want to redirect her and find something for her locally? I could say, it's true, I want to redirect you. I'd like you to work with somebody else. What's wrong with that? I love this conversation because it's starting to drive me nuts because Because it's like, what's wrong with the truth here?

[67:55]

And we're talking about karma. This whole class is about karma. And there's so much in which, if Rev is really just honest, it's not good enough, or it's too much, or it's anything but. And so we try to change the packaging of it, but for what end? Not to hurt her, but to get her help. He doesn't really know why he doesn't want to. I think we're sort of searching for plans that he doesn't want to. I think the decorum gets it the way it is. That's part of it. Well, also, I think, by the way, I just had a little insight. And that is, I think what I should do is I should tell her, the reason why I haven't called you back is because now she knows more. But I just thought I'd call all my friends.

[69:02]

I'm going through a whole Rolodex and checking every man I'm calling. So if you've been trying to call me, I just wanted you to know. Here's my insight. My insight is I should tell her, I should say, do you want to hear the truth? Do you really want to hear it? And if she does, I'll say, the truth is... Three times. Yeah, three times. The truth is, the reason why I haven't answered your call is because I didn't want to. I don't know why I didn't want to, but I didn't want to, and I wouldn't even have called you this time, except that I feel like I have to finally tell you this. So I thought, I don't know if the call... I didn't have to call back and tell you after one call. But after three calls, I have to tell you that the reason why I didn't call two times before was because I didn't want to. And I don't know why I didn't want to. Now, maybe, if I tell her the truth, maybe then... That's what I thought. Maybe that'll uncover what the problem is, and she'll freak or whatever, and I'll say I'm sorry, and maybe then we'll have a meaningful conversation.

[70:11]

But somehow... Now that I'm telling you this, part of the reason why I think I don't want to talk to her is because she calls me kind of like she's calling her mother, like I'm her mother, or her sister or something. She wants to call and chat. And it just doesn't seem appropriate for me. I don't feel right about it. And I don't feel right about saying, you know, I don't want to chat. I think that's very appropriate. But anyway... So anyway, and that's why she shouldn't be calling me for this. She has other people to chat with. She's got to probably chat up to her eyeballs, chatting. Why call me long distance to chat? And then she'll probably say, well, I want to chat about, you know, Dharma. But it's more like she wants to chat about Dharma than she wants to talk about Dharma. So now the Dharma is... And that's the truth. And this may have something to do with it. And maybe that will break the ice and we'll get down to the real issue. And then we'll see if she can actually talk to me about something... So I think that... There it is.

[71:16]

And if she can't, then you say... If she can't, then at some future point you say, look, you can't actually talk to me. Well, no, it's not happening anyway. And that's what I'm up for. I'm not up for chatting. Even about lofty topics, I don't want to chat. And so I don't want to do this anymore. But I think I can even give her a chance... I haven't really forced, I haven't really told her what I want, and I've sort of allowed her to do that during... Well, actually, she does it on the answering machine. The tone on the answering machine is this chatty tone. It's not like, I need your help. It's not that kind of thing. It's kind of like... You can call me or not, but finally, like... His last call was like anything on the call because it's like she's starting to look desperate. But it's a strange desperateness because it's like this. So I think I understand now what to do. Thank you. We all feel better too.

[72:17]

Oh no, Edie's next. Excuse me, sorry. So Edie, Dana, and Carrie. Well, actually, that in a way is the scene that I'm looking at with a friend that I don't want to talk to anymore. And because she over the years is very negative, and I get depressed talking to her. And so it helps me to kind of hesitate to give her that feedback. And I've not wanted to hurt her and all of that kind of stuff. And I still don't know exactly what I would say, but The question inside of that for me has been... Be careful of your T there. Yeah, there's nothing in it. ...is the timing, like how long you observe, how long I observe my impulses, and how long I wait in a situation that's conflicted for me, like that one, where I don't want to do something, and how to say that to the person.

[73:23]

And I have been in much of my life wanting to get closure on situations and be direct with people and work through problems together. But I find some are such... problems that I take a long time. And then I wonder, I worry, am I missing the moment when their lives and my lives, so much has passed in each of our lives that we can no longer even deal with that particular issue. It's no longer there. There's something there, but it's not that. It's historical or something. It can get very, very complex because of time passing. And you grow differently. Yeah. I don't know if I have a question there, or certainly I don't have an answer, but those are some of the things that were pertinent to me. I guess I do think that I can't work it out by myself.

[74:28]

I either have to talk with other people and get feedback, or I have to talk with that person and have an interaction that moves itself to some different stage. What sounds like, yeah, that's what I came to, is to have an introduction that moves it to a different stage. Either she works with somebody else, or she changes the kind of way she's talking to me, or something. And I'm changing the way I'm talking to her. I'm saying something to her which I never said to her before. And... It took me a while to get to the point where I sort of have to say it, because all these things are very clear, but I didn't want to call it. So that's kind of a good thing for me, is to think of what is the quality of the call I don't want to answer? What is it there? And what can I tell the person? They call me, and I call back, and I say, I have news for you.

[75:33]

Guess what? You just called me, and I didn't want to talk to you. What's that about? He calls you back and insults you. Don't call him. Dana? Well, I had a situation with someone that I came to realize the friendship that I thought we could have. She wanted something, but when I finally realized it's not something I could be with this person, and we'd come back and forth with talking on the phone, and she would get upset when I wanted to get off the phone, and it was just like I really, she was a very manly and funny person, but I couldn't have a relationship with her because she wanted way too much of me, you know. I just came, I couldn't call her and tell her this, but I wrote in a letter, because I'm not good at telling people things I know they're not going to hear, but I just, I put it on myself and said, I'm sorry, I said something like, I'm sorry I cannot be what you need me to be for you.

[76:34]

And that was it, you know, because it was very clear that, well, what you were looking for or think you're looking for in me and addressing it and saying, I'm sorry, I can't. You know, which is maybe as hurtful to say, I don't want, you know what I mean? I do, but if you want to hear what my response is? Really? Huh, the truth? Yeah, yeah. I don't go for this, I can't. I think it's better to say, you know, get ready to say, I don't want to. Because you can do it. There's some people who you're dying to give what she wants. Aren't there? Yeah. There's some people who she wants this much, you want to give her this much. There's some people you want to give that much. You can give that much if you want to. If you don't want to, you say, well, then I can't.

[77:35]

Well, but saying I can't is misleading. It's like, I want to, but, you know... My husband won't let me. I can't give it to you. Yeah. I can't give it to you because I won't let myself because I don't want to. And it might be that if you say, I don't want to, if you say, I can't, then you're saying, you know, I'm innocent, you know, poor me. He sort of says, oh, okay, well, sorry. If you say, I don't want to, he says, well, what do you want? And you might say, well, actually, I never want to see you again in my life. And then you say, wow, that's surprising. I didn't think it got to that point. You might say, what I want is this. I want to have lunch with you once every three months. That's what I want. Or whatever it is, you know. Then you can have a relationship, but it's what you want. She said, no, I want more than once a month. Once more than every three months. Then you fight back and forth and you find your relationship, you know. I think it's setting parameters in that, like, this woman might not know you don't like this, so by you communicating with her then...

[78:39]

It sounds like you care about this person some, but you don't feel like you want to give quite as much as you sense she wants. You don't want to. So why don't you consider telling her what you want instead of what you can or cannot do? Well, one, I'm terrible at confronting people when I'm yelling, screaming, and getting upset at me. And two, she's, as I've come to learn, an extremely black person that I think is kind of toxic for where I'm at in my life right now. You know? Yeah, so it's kind of like... So now you say, I can't. It's like... There's some... that maybe she would be volatile. I... I think you got a little treasure there. Just like I did. This is a little treasure for me, this little problem. And I think to say I can't is maybe... And to say confronting the person, I don't feel like it's exactly a confrontation because isn't she asking for this?

[79:47]

Confrontation is more like, you know, you bring it to them, but when they ask you for something and you don't want to give it, it's not necessarily a confrontation to tell them a reason. Because in some sense you're just responding. But you're not going to explain why you're not going to give her. And you can also ask her, too, just like I asked you. You can say, here's what I feel you're asking. In a letter, this is fine. Here's what I feel like you're asking. Am I correct? Let her answer. And she writes back and says, you're right. Then you write back and say, do you want to hear how I have a problem with this and why I don't feel like I can say yes to this? Do you want to hear about that? She writes back and says yes. Then you say, I don't want to, that's why. But make sure she wants to hear it and tell her the truth. No, no, Dana, I don't really want that much. And you go back and say, how much do you want? Or you could say, here's one of my sense of what you want.

[80:49]

Am I correct? And if not, tell me what you want. And maybe she wants something more reasonable that you feel actually up for rather than tolerating. Is it people that we don't want to spend time with? I don't know. Usually if I get bored with people, there's some reason for it. I usually get bored with people when they're hiding. And if I tell them that, then I'm not bored anymore. I'll tell them I'm bored, then I get bored again. So I don't get bored with people when they're telling me what's happening. Unfortunately, some people don't get bored with me when I'm not telling them what's happening. Unfortunately, people tolerate me not being honest. That's one of my problems. Not everybody does, but I wish people were as intolerant of me as I am of them not being honest. my left would be something that they didn't. For some people, I'm not the only person who doesn't tolerate their honesty, their dishonesty.

[81:56]

And they travel for miles to meet somebody who won't tolerate it. They try it, and they don't. And then we have a problem, which sometimes manifests as me saying I'm bored. So, there it is, you know, it seems like a good thing for you And you can do it by letter and be careful that you try to understand and make sure she wants to hear it and then tell her. And maybe you won't even need to tell her because maybe things will change as soon as you start asking these questions. Because you seem to have the willingness to care enough about it to write some letters. You don't care that much. It's pretty easy for somebody to bring it up here. Carrie? I'm not sure now that I want to talk about it, but... Well, think about it for a little bit then. Do you want to take some time to think about it?

[82:58]

This is not the right time here. You had an impulse. It's your turn now, but you don't have to take it up. I'll come back to you if you want. Do you want to think about it for a little bit? I actually would like to talk more about regalistic reincarnation. I've been more than just thinking about it. Okay. Anybody else have something to bring up at this time? Caio? Well, we've all been talking about how to tell people you don't want to do something, but I was on the other end of one of those once. I had a friend that I met at a place where I worked and I quit. We continued. As friends seeing each other and once we went out to lunch together And after lunch walking down the street she turned and said I don't know if she said it My mind comes up, you know.

[84:02]

Oh, by the way, my therapist has been suggesting that I changed my life. So I'm changing my friends so We're going to see each other ever again And I stopped and I said, is this a joke? She said, no, really, this is it. Thank you again. And I said, thank you. And off she went. So I thought I would be shocked, but for some reason I wasn't. I thought it was really wonderful that she had difficulties in her life, that she was actually doing something. I saw her a couple years later in a movie or something, and we had about a 10-word conversation, and I'd never seen her since. And I thought that was rather neat that she actually... So partly I bring this up because I thought, of course, she probably went through... I mean, you know, this just came out of the blue for me. Right. But here's all the struggles she had. And to know... The person's the person who's calling you. LAUGHTER LAUGHTER

[85:06]

And I'm going to refer her back to you. It's time to change, friends. Okay, now, rebirth. Do you have a question not about Reaper? I had a question not about Reaper. Go ahead. Well, I was just appreciating this group consultation work, and I thought I'd bring up this problem. I realized this has been going on for a long time. This cousin was a year younger than I am, and over the years we've been thrown together because we were of the same age. And I was, for example, when they moved I was sent to spend a month with her because she didn't have any friends, and she didn't have anything to do when she was a teenager.

[86:27]

So, you know, the parents worked out that I would come and be with them for the month. So we've, you know, this has been going on for a long time. But at a certain point, and we, I have never really liked her that much. Anyway, a couple years back, she said a very hurtful thing. I was hurt very much by something she said. She crossed a certain boundary. And I thought to myself, that's it. I don't have to spend time with her anymore. I don't have to carry this family thing where we have to see each other and she calls and I have to put her up at Zen Center for a week and just all that. I don't have to do it anymore. I felt... with the help of my therapist, you know, very open about saying, you know, I don't. So what happened was I just didn't, if she called or was in town, I said, yeah, I'm too busy here.

[87:29]

I just, which I often am. So anyway, she just called a couple of weeks ago. Mountain to the mountain in to the plate to South Pacific and couldn't come by seeing her husband or partner and their child to Green Gulch. It was on a Sunday and I didn't have the free time. I didn't want to make the free time and I said, it doesn't work. It's not going to work. I hope you have a nice time on her answering machine. But then afterwards, I thought, this is just going to keep going on. She'll keep trying to make this contact. I'm her cousin. And she's not really, I haven't actually said. And I don't want to spend time with you anymore. It doesn't work for me. And it never did. It's not true that it never did, because it did.

[88:33]

It got you to this point of telling her, maybe telling her the truth. Say that again. Your relationship has gotten you to the place now where now finally you can tell her the truth. Well, I'm contemplating. You're contemplating. You're getting close to being able to tell her the truth, which is, you can tell us, right? The truth. I don't enjoy spending time with her. You don't enjoy? I don't want to spend time with her. You don't want to? Because some people, I don't enjoy spending time with, but I want to. Like my daughter. Sometimes I don't enjoy spending time with her, but I really want to. I really want to. It's glorious, but sometimes there's certain conversations which are not enjoyable, which I really want to have with her. I have to really work to get her to come and have those conversations. I don't exactly enjoy, but I want to. It's my job.

[89:35]

So you don't want to and don't enjoy. So then, how are you going to tell her? This is all different from... This is a cousin, right? Well, we could apply some of the things we did before, namely, if she has to see you, You know? How did I do it? How do we do it? You ask them... Do you want to hear the truth? Do you want to hear the truth? I said, you called me and you want to drop by and you're asking me, you know, blah, blah, blah, about how I am. Ask her. See what she says. And again, you may change your whole relationship with it into something quite interesting and enjoyable. Because it's quite enjoyable to be able to say the truth to somebody.

[90:38]

And it's not possible to tell the truth to somebody. To use the relationship as an excuse, they're acting different from the way you act in most of the other relationships. But because of family, we sometimes get into situations with our family where we think, this is the one place where I can't tell the truth. But since they're my family, I have to go and be in a situation where I can't tell the truth. So when someone says you have to do that, that's a relationship that was built as a child. You do what they tell you to do. So, you know, all of a sudden she's calling and you feel obligated to do that. She's my cousin, I always did this. And also we sometimes feel obligated by our past lies. Since I hadn't told her all those years, I tell her now. That's part of what you're saying. All of a sudden now she's going to get the truth after I lied all these years. Well... I wouldn't get into this. I could say I've been lying all these years. That would probably be all right. But I think maybe you're almost there where you could say, do you want to, dear cousin, I am.

[91:41]

What's happening with me? And you wouldn't necessarily have to wait until she calls again, but you could wait, perhaps. And if she's up for it, that might be a conversation you do want to have with her. Yeah. And, you know, and what we want to say at a time like that, I can imagine Linda want to say, this is nothing against you. Nothing wrong with you. But, you know, we can say that, that's okay. But that's not necessarily the point. Maybe she knows. But in fact, anyway, this is where you're at, and that's your truth, and maybe you're almost ready to say that to her. the next time. We're coming to a very similar conclusion for all these different cases. And we're kind of encouraging each other to do it. Is it wholesome karma?

[92:42]

Is it intended lovingly? It should be loving, you know. I care about this person. I love her in a way, but... I don't like this thing that's happening. I would much rather have somebody tell me that this wasn't a false relationship going on. Right, right. She would probably be totally delighted. And it might make our relationship work at a distance, yes? The part that I like that's different from the information that Tayo heard is that you're not telling, that you wouldn't tell him exactly what's going to happen. Yeah. And then you don't, as you said, you know, then you see what happens in the relationship. But the part that seems sort of false would be to say, I'm never going to see you again. Right. Yeah, nothing, yeah, that's, anyway, Tayo kind of appreciates she was doing something, but this person is not expecting me to finally do something. That's not the level. And I don't know, does anybody else have any feeling about Linda's example that you'd like to comment on?

[93:46]

Yeah, I have a feeling about the question, do you want to hear the truth? I actually used that line once. The person was fine. What am I going to say? No. You know, it was like, I realize a question like that. Most people don't. I mean, most people will not say no lie to me. Or maybe another thing, another way to say it is, I have something to say to you. And I feel like it might be helpful to say, but it also might be quite, I think it might be difficult. But I feel like it might, it's something about how I'm feeling about us. but it might be very difficult, and I wonder if you're up for hearing something difficult, some difficulty I'm having with you, and I want you to know it's okay with me if you're not.

[94:55]

Which is similar to saying, do you really? It's really okay with me if you don't, but I feel like, I feel like, I guess I feel like it would be good if I did, but, you know, You have to be up for it. Something like that. Because it won't work if you think you're doing something wrong and you can listen to me. I don't have to tell you this if you don't want to. But by the way, I'm not going to spend any time with you unless you let me do it. This feels like you have to be present. That whole thing about being present. Right, that's right. For what you're saying, literally, and to hear the person. Yeah, you might have a plan of what you're going to say. When you get on the phone, Something else might come out. But you're up, you're ready, but you're ready for the worst. You're ready to tell the truth. That could happen. You are willing for that to happen.

[95:57]

I don't know who was next. It was about revert? No, I got interested. I saw the connection. Okay. in this conversation. I was interested in what you said about wanting to see your daughter even though you wouldn't enjoy it. I often want to talk to her about money. I don't enjoy these conversations but I do want to talk to her about it because that's one of the main things I can do is talk to her about money. One of the main things she's willing to And it's one of my main fatherly things is to talk to her about money. And she doesn't want to light the conversation, but she knows she has to to get it. And she wants it. And I know I have to talk to her about it. I know I can't. If I would just give her the money, she'd be... But I need to talk to her.

[97:02]

And since I need to, she knows she has to. And it's hard for me to tell somebody that you love that you have to set the limits and require some... So I don't enjoy it. It's very painful, but I want to. And again, it's one of the main opportunities I have with it. So I want to, but I don't enjoy it. I'm sure you do. And one of our children has this habit, you heard it earlier, of talking so fast that you can't get a word in sideways. And we've tried over the years to... I have something I need to tell you. And say, you count so much that I've never worked inside with. And just say it. And it's so hard because you don't want to hurt them. You don't want to say something hurtful. And it's just an ongoing dilemma. Trying to make some kind of honest connection about what you're feeling and what I'm feeling.

[98:07]

I'm speaking for Stuart, but I know that you share this problem. And it's always uncomfortable to say the truth. I can't... Always? Why should... Well, not always, but in this situation, it's difficult to say the truth. And I was wondering, you know, why is it so hard to be true to that, to know... I don't know about your daughter. Do you have some idea about why it's so hard? Do you have any guess about why it's so hard? It's self-concern. And what is your concern particularly? That the person would reject you. Right. That you'll cause a rift between you and your beloved child. Yeah. It's a major problem. So... We do not want that. So when you have these conversations... Your daughter, and you say, does she know that it's difficult for you, and you don't enjoy it, or do you just talk to her?

[99:13]

I think she can sense the gravity of the situation. It's not a... And the nice thing about many things is I have this hand here, which holds the pen. So if she won't talk, the hand doesn't move. the check doesn't get written. And she knows that, you know, it won't be... Somehow she can't get the arm to move unless the mind is at peace. The hand doesn't somehow... It can't write under those adverse circumstances. Now, actual cash is easier to get off me. Without the cash, she can actually pull it out of my hands. She actually does pull it out of my hands. I go with the cash... against my will. All I got to do is go like this. I can be quite nervous until I let go of the money and say, okay, okay, here's some more. Shouldn't you hold the cash until it releases itself? It releases itself like this.

[100:19]

It's like I'm pulled away from the money and it flies into the air and winds up in her purse. But the hand, the big money, the checks, you know, I have to be more kind of in accord with it to do it. Because there's all these complex physical movements. And I was like, change the name at the end, you know. So she realized that I have to really, we have to be in cooperation for this money to come out. So if she won't talk to me, The hand doesn't move. So she has to actually... Yeah, it's one of the areas. It's not so much control over the person, but it is... And usually I get to, like, very close to satisfaction to direct the check, and it's usually fairly mutual. I won't write a check that she's not happy with either. I won't write that check either. So it's a nice situation. talks and talks and you can't get a word inside face and then you have a conversation about that problem and then it gets incorporated later into the the talking that never ends right well like i say about how we had that conversation and like it never sinks in that this is a problem well does the person keep talking to you even when the hand like moon that they start asking you what's the matter with the hand why isn't writing a check

[101:47]

I don't have that leverage anymore. I am. That's an agent problem. Okay, well, this isn't directly related to rebirth in an obvious way, but actually it is. Because, you know, rebirth has a lot to do with honesty. If you're honest, That being honest and present with your honesty, or present and honest about your presence, that has influence. That's what rebirth's about. That's what sends you on course. And we're having a hard time being honest. So our rebirths are wobbly. with that painful, that pain that Beirut is. Yes?

[102:51]

What I believe, out of all this reality, it puts, it is perfectly respectful of the other person and of oneself. And it gets the power to make quality a way it works, to keep it honest. There is no higher power. There is truly honesty. It's just people making it. That sounds really good. I don't know if it's true, but it might be. Could you say a word about this? Well, I mean, I have had people saying things to me that were painful for me, but because they were... I was in my full power. They didn't disempower me back in this old school. And so it takes away the power of inequality that might be in a relationship.

[103:53]

If there's a real mass meeting, there goes people just there. The pain dissipates. There's pain involved in the transmission of the honesty. It seems to dissipate more rapidly if I feel like I've been treated honestly than if I've been BS'd, given half the degrees, patronized. Maybe that we're afraid we can't reach. We're afraid of. We're afraid of equality? Yeah, of being too high. Right. Either afraid of coming up or going down. And I think this also may or may not be true, but anyway, I think lower lies, they stay in position, and the person above lies, they stay in the same position. So this person, they both want to lie to keep in the same position rather than go like... This is what we have the most trouble with. This is pretty bad.

[104:54]

But this is the most difficult. That's the point. And that's related to a comment I want to make about the fallacy of the statement, I don't want to hurt you. I don't want to tell you the truth. I didn't want to tell him or her the truth because I don't want to hurt him. Because there's implicit power in saying that I could hurt someone. I mean, there's certainly value in trying to be harmless in what you do. But it's self-aggrandizement or just plain nonsense to say, I don't want to hurt you. Or it's far enough just to never lie. Because it's not that I don't want to hurt you, it's that I don't want to hurt back. Yeah, I don't want to be rejected, I don't want you to think... Well, I don't want the consequences of hurting you. So I'm going to protect myself by saying that I won't hurt you. I'm afraid of hurting you. There's something else.

[106:01]

I've been thinking about this. I felt that the honesty quotient kind of grew when I began to not make arrangements to see her. It was like, finally, I can just... But now, you know, it seems like it has to grow more. Because that's not enough now. Yeah. Now, Eileen said that she's happy that her dog is a dog. So she hasn't made that statement. And is there anything else you're happy about? Soon, because I'll be calling on you. Is there anything you'd like to say at this time? Yeah. Well, actually, yesterday afternoon, when Christina was talking and Stan was talking, It was very complex, and I could look around the room and see all these people just really concentrating, trying to grasp, understand.

[107:12]

I looked out the window and I thought, you know, if we weren't here, the trees would still be here, the birds would still be here, the sun would still shine, the moon would come up, the ocean would crash into the beach. I thought, well, you know, we are completely interdependent on the universe, but the universe can exist without us. Even though you've explained all this to me 20 times so far, And I actually got upset because I thought, oh, my God, this is so much responsibility. This is so painful to do this work. I'm going to leave it to Linda and Stuart and Galen and Tayo, and I'm going to slink back to the swamp. And then I sat Sazan on that.

[108:14]

And then I had it all worked out in my mind. Because the next time something goes wrong in my life, I will come running back here. And I also took this vow. But it just really got to me. I guess I'm having buyer's remorse. But now I don't feel so bad. Listening to the talk this afternoon. Do you know what it was about the talk this afternoon that makes you feel not so bad? Well, I settle more into it, and then listening to the conversation this afternoon, it's like this is the grist of it, is this, you know, all day long we go through these things where we have these little sort of, they're not, confrontation where you're dealing with all these things on a continual basis, and to think about it and try to deal with it every moment, it,

[109:32]

Eventually, like, sitting has a cumulative effect. I'm much more aware of it than I was five years ago. And just listening to the conversation this afternoon, I mean, that's what it is all about, is these difficulties and how we all deal with them. Like with Linda's example, it was... For me, it's like I would just obsess about it, not hurting the other person. And I think there's this thing about the equality and being fully present about it. When you present it, it does change the situation. If I am fully present, that person, if they have any awareness, is going to be aware that You are fully present and it wasn't easy to get there.

[110:39]

I changed the dynamic. Some people like to be very invited to make statements. Now we invite Cindy. Is there anything you'd like to say? I kind of enjoyed watching the impulse from anxiety to move and get ready to speak. And it was one of those fight or flight things, you know, where you want to get or hang out and just kind of dive in. And it's been interesting for me the last couple weeks because I was up at Tassajara last week. And it was probably one of the first vacations I've taken in many... And I do emergency service work for the city of San Jose in the fire department.

[111:48]

And I found a lot of stuff coming up since I started my practice and sitting in. I didn't know what it was that... I was looking for, but I knew it was here. And when I was at Tassajara last week, I knew I found it, you know, this answer to this incredible, incredible pain that I found through my own work professionally and as I have been meditating since last October. And it was really interesting for me because when I left Tassajara, And when I got home, everything was so vivid. Everything was so incredibly vivid. Every person I looked at, everything I looked at. And I didn't know what was happening.

[112:51]

All I could do was comment to the person who was driving me home. Everything looked so different then. And then I get home and There was a newspaper article, or the newspaper and the headline news. And the paper was about a from our department that responded to a call of his own two-year-old that had drowned in a pool. And the two-year-old died, and his father was the one that had to administer CPR. And my world got really small again. incredible to go through a cycle from Tassamara.

[114:01]

I wasn't ready because I was pretty wide open spiritually. I guess coming into this week I got some more answers. I don't know if it's any easier to accept stories like that and happenings like that but I know that there's an answer in this and I just trust that now and I know it's here and All I can say is thank you.

[115:06]

You're welcome. Would you like to have a period of sitting before dinner? Is that okay? Good idea. You can sit whenever you get over there. Start the period at 5.30. 5.30 to 6.00. And that will be time for Bennett. We'll meet back here at 7.30. Okay, anything else before we leave? People are straggling in.

[116:16]

As they're straggling, anybody want to talk about pre-struggle? Yes? I have a couple of questions. Let me preface first by saying that everything you've been teaching us this week has been very thoughtful and... and stimulating and fascinating and I don't mean disrespect by this question, but let me see if I understand this correctly. Everything is an imagination? You mean disrespect by that? No, I'm just checking this out first before I put the question. Everything is an imagination? Everything is an imagination. Not everything is an imagination. The world of karma is based on Imagination, based on conception. My question was, is it possible... I was thinking the premise that everything is an imagination, but even this teaching is an imagination, that there is a light.

[117:25]

Yes, definitely. That there is even a light, which you talk about. Could that be imagination, too? Yes, this is all imagination. This is my vision. This is my imagination about how the world of birth and death is the result of imagination. And is embraced by life. And is embraced by life. Yeah, there's a big thing called life, and my imagination is that life is not imagination. Life is not just imagination, but that in the midst of life, these creatures developed the ability to imagine inherent existence. Imagine something that existed by itself. And they were able to imagine that by ignoring something. Once this is imagined, then this being is kind of like, well, this being has then the ability to now imagine that it can do things by itself, and then we get birth and death.

[118:35]

It's all based on, you know, it's all based on pure mental fabrication. And this whole teaching here is also based on pure mental fabrication, except that we can test it. You can test my imagination, you can test my vision. I'm testing it myself now and then. But how do you test it? Well, like I say, it hurts. Pain is not imagination. I say that, you know. And I say that if you imagine an inherent existence and you have pain, when you believe in an inherent existence, you feel threatened. But, you know, if your life starts lining up with the belief in an inherent existence of this entity, this isolated self, then there's anxiety, which you can experience.

[119:38]

You can also experience that when you think there's something wrong with it, rather than understanding that it's perfectly dharmic, perfectly true that this would happen to such an imagined being. There's nothing wrong with that, that makes sense. So then you try to do something about it, like, you know, to make it better or something, or to distract yourself by, you know, going to the circus or something, or just to be confused and take a nap, or fight it, it's a greed-having delusion in response to this. Okay? Let's do something about it. Now we have karma. And this then will create a whole world that in a whole world will then be conjured and created based on this inherent existence. And all the things in the world then will have substantiality and will, you know, really hit you. And that's how the world, that's my dream of how the world happens. Okay? That was the first question. The second question is, yesterday afternoon, at the very end, somebody asked a question about soul.

[120:39]

What I said it was, you know, was the dependent, the co-arisen nature of an individual. So the universe has this big cosmic quality, this extensiveness, seems to have an extensiveness of vastness, but it also gives rise particularly to uniquenesses, to identities, to individual events. And these individual events owe their individuality to the support of the whole universe.

[121:52]

In other words, they're individual, but they're not independent. They depend on the universe for their individuality and for their... There's all kinds of individualities all over the universe. But there's one particular, and then there's life, you know, and life also can have individualities. And then among these unique life forms, there's a certain type called human which can imagine that there's something that inherently exists. And that the individuality itself might be inherently existing, isolated from other things. Okay? The soul is the actual, is the dependently co-arisen identity, is the identity which is in connection with everything. That's the soul.

[122:52]

I think we call it the soul. It's like the spiritual reality of an individual. It's like the interdependent-ness. So it's the life? Huh? I mean, it's the life and the... It's more like the light of the individual being. And the darkness of the individual being is the opposite. It's the independence. It's the, you know, it's the, no thank you universe, I don't need you, kind of life. You know, you didn't give me birth. No. That's the darkness. the individual says, I'm not just an individual, I'm an isolated, independent operator. However, I do feel, then you feel anxiety, based on that darkness, based on that turning away from everything that supports you.

[123:56]

Feel anxiety, and then that anxiety, that deep pain of anxiety, which is also very subtle, then we try to get rid of it, grab onto some pleasure to distract ourselves, or just be confused and go to sleep, or worry, or wiggle, whatever, you know, these various responses to the pain of the supreme act of arrogance, I exist by myself. And it looks like almost all nomad human beings have that arrogance, which most deny and try to pretend they don't have. Of course, quite easy to figure out what their poor little me, why am I being picked on, you know? I'm a good kid. I didn't do anything arrogant, like assume that I got here all by myself. I even say I didn't get here by myself, but deep down you think you did. That's the darkness of the individuality. Soul is the interdependence.

[125:03]

So we have to find that interdependent self And there's nothing to it because, you know, it depends on everything. But the way to find it is not by going on and look for it, but through the darkness, through admitting, because that's easy to find, to admit this independent person. to watch all these persons involved in karma, and by seeing that, you gradually see that there's a light in there. There's actually a little interdependent person right there all the time. The more you watch the independent person, the more steadily you watch it, the more intimate you become with it, you eventually meet the interdependent person, gradually comes out of hiding, because you can face the darkness and the pain. The consequences of turning away must be faced in order to get turned back. You can't turn back to the light without going through the pain of the darkness.

[126:10]

And that's hard. But we did get this wonderful thing out of the deal, this independent person, Lord of the Universe, or Empress of the Universe, whichever the case may be. Okay, now, can we have a little more on rebirth here now? First of all, I just want to mention to you that we happen to live in, and I really wasn't aware of it, to tell you the truth, we happen to live in perhaps the most religious country in the world. Religious, not in the sense of like, you know, most realized. but the country where people are most kind of, like, interested into it, fanatic about it. In the United States... Now, of course, polls are only the people who answer the questions, right?

[127:13]

And a lot of, you know, truly religious people might not talk to these pollsters about religion. And a lot of other people are too depressed to pay their telephone bills. But anyway, among those people who respond to questions about... to questionnaires... about religion, in America, 97% of the people polled in one poll, 97%, believed in God. Or they expressed some belief in God. They didn't say that, but they expressed some belief in God. 97%. That's a lot. I've heard other polls which are like that, too. Not only that, but 60% attend public... Some of the others do private worship. Not in America. In New York. Well, in San Francisco, they're all going to Zen Center. May I go on just for a second? In Europe, 40% do not believe in God.

[128:30]

It's only 60%. Well, 40% say they don't. The other 60%, maybe they don't say they do, but anyway, it's 40% compared to 3% who don't believe in God in Europe. And only 10% regularly attend public worship. 10 versus 60. Okay? Did you want to talk something to do with that? Well, one question I was going to ask you, which seems appropriate now that we're talking about this, just historically, there has been a trend, and there is more seeking for religion in the last 50 years than there has been for the last 200 years or something like that. I don't know if you know. I will give you more accurate statistics. But I will say this, that starting about 200 years ago, an amazing thing started happening in America. You know, almost exactly 200 years ago.

[129:31]

In 1801, something happened in America, which happened at a place in Kentucky, Cane Ridge, Kentucky. This is like on the frontier, right? Somehow, a bunch of preachers held a meeting, and 25,000 people came. which is similar, not similar, 1801. 25,000. There was no city on the whole frontier that was one-fifth that size. So these people came, you know, they'd never seen that many people, ever. So they were overwhelmed by the presence of the mass of people that were coming to a religious event. And these people came to religious events. You might not have considered it. Because these are frontier people. The men were like, these were cowboys. They were drunken, cussing, smoking, gambling, and, you know, blankety-blanking tough guys carrying guns and hatchets and knives.

[130:39]

Coming to a religious event. And they brought their wives, girlfriends, and their kids, and their dogs, and their cows, and their horses, and guns, 25,000 got together and they had a religious meeting. Revival? Well, they didn't know it was going to be a revival. They thought it was just going to be a religious meeting. They didn't have revivals before that. Is that Joseph Smith? Joseph Smith, it's a little after this. Joseph Smith was born in 1804, one year before Abraham Lincoln. This event is kind of setting off a wave of these kinds of meetings, which particularly was really hot in western New York, where Joseph Smith kind of grew up. Anyway, in this event, which had a team of preachers of different sects, they came together and they lambasted, what do you call it?

[131:43]

They harangued this group, you know, intensely, and people just basically like dropped dead, you know, and were revived, were reborn, were saved. Walking around saying, you know, that's what happened. You know, at the percent of the sexual ratio, I'm not sure, but I think a lot of them were women. And there was a lot of babies born at this event, too. A lot of sex was going on, too. Anyway, these people felt like they revived Something. That's what I'm feeling. Reborn. They went back, like, to the source of something. And it came, it was reborn again, not in themselves, and among the community. And then these people, then these revival meetings started happening all over the North, and swept into the South, too. And from there to the Civil War, this is a big event in America. And things happened, religious events, these events, kind of events, where there were trances and visions and these kind of things happened very intensely in America in the first half of that century.

[132:53]

Cane Ridge, Kentucky. Something uniquely happened and I don't know about Rome, but I think you might say that Rome was pretty religious too. America is kind of like the Rome of the world now, you know. We're the country everybody wants to get into, and we're the country that's pushing everybody away. And we're rich, we're powerful, and we're... Except for Zen Center. We're totally dedicated to it, but we're not fanatic. Total devotion to a mobile city. But we're cool. We proselytize. We do reverse proselytization. Anyway, I'm just saying that, you know, this is something to keep in mind about our country, that we sometimes don't... We think we're the only one, right? That's sort of interested in this stuff.

[133:59]

So, a little bit more about rebirth. I would like to mention that the majority of Buddhist schools... reject the idea of intermediate existence. Majority of Buddhist schools reject the idea of an intermediate existence. Pardon? Yeah, immediate rebirth, right. Some works by Nagarjuna say that... I should say some works attributed to Nagarjuna say that the... One way of saying it is that it's like there's a death consciousness and there's a birth consciousness. There's nothing... There's no, like, something carried over in between.

[135:03]

And... that can be interpreted as no intermediate existence. Or another way of saying it is that the intermediate existence vanishes as soon as it comes up. Another way of putting it. One candle goes, one flame goes, one flame goes out, another one goes on. That's the majority of Buddhist schools in India said that. Believe that or don't believe that? Believe that or don't believe that? Well, the majority say there isn't an intermediate existence. There's not. And some of them say the way it happens is that there's a death consciousness, there's a going out of life, this consciousness goes away, and a new one comes up right away. So rebirth happens right away. So there's no connection between these two things? There is rebirth, there's a causal connection, but there's not something which carries it over between death and the next birth.

[136:09]

There's a connection, there's a causal connection, but it's not the connection of something getting passed over. It's not that winter is the past of spring, and spring is the future of winter. It's just that there's winter and then there's spring. There's no, like, sending the future away. But in fact, the winter does precede the spring, and the death consciousness precedes the birth consciousness. But there's no kind of, like, carrying all... Is there a correlation in that, in the shape? What? Is there a correlation between birth consciousness and death consciousness? In that school? I can't yet tell you what they would say about the relationship between the practice of the deceased and the spiritual possibilities of the newborn.

[137:14]

Okay? Now, Dogen Zenji quotes this thing about, you know, what he says about that, but he also wrote a fascicle, which is kind of hidden away in the Shobo Genzo, called the mind, the mind of the way. He wrote this too, apparently, or maybe some people say he forged it, but anyway. In seeking the Buddha, make the mind of the way foremost. Few people know what the mind of the way is. Ask those who clearly know it. There are people who actually have no way mind, even though there are people of the world who say that that person has the way mind. There are people who actually possess the mind of the way who are not recognized by other people. In this way, it is difficult to discern whether one has it or not. In general, you must not listen to or believe in the words of foolish and wicked people.

[138:19]

Furthermore, you must not follow your mind as foremost, but make the Dharma of the Buddha the Dharma that Buddha taught foremost. Bearing deeply in mind how the mind of the way should be, day and night aspire and pray so that the genuine mind of the way may be realized, the world by all means. Generally, there are few who truly have the mind of the way in these degenerate days of the world. The world means the world of birth and death. There aren't too many people who have mind of the way. In other words, there aren't too many people who are studying karma, you know, with the proper attitude. For now, however, remember the impermanence of the world and don't forget the unreliable need of life in the world.

[139:22]

You should not consider yourself as one who remains No, you should not consider yourself as one who remembers the impermanence of the world. You should not consider yourself one who remembers the impermanence of the world. You should be determined to weigh the Dharma and lighten your own body and life. Don't begrudge your body and life in study of the Dharma. Next, deeply respect the triple treasure, Buddha, Dharma, Sangha. Aspire to respectfully offer and revere the three treasures, life after life. Next, respectfully remember the merits of the triple treasure. Even when you discard this life, within the seven days thereafter, before being reborn, before your next life, which is called the intermediate existence, think of reciting the Triple Treasure ceaselessly. For seven days in the existence, after seven days in the intermediate existence, one dies and could receive another intermediate existence for seven days.

[140:33]

At most, it says it won't exceed seven days. Well, maybe he means seven of these. At this time, one sees and hears without obstruction, as if through celestial eyes. In returning to rebirth, in becoming born again, recite the Triple Treasure strenuously, strengthening your mind, not forgetting to recite. I take refuge in Buddha, I take refuge in Dharma, I take refuge in Sangha. Recite this ceaselessly. After passing through the intermediate existence, in approaching father and mother who are joined together, try to keep your mind wholeheartedly. While in the womb... If you get that at womb, also recite the Three Treasures.

[142:03]

At birth, also don't slacken your recitation. And receiving the Six Senses, deeply desire to dedicate all these senses to the Three Treasures, to recite them and take refuge in them. This is the Zen master, Dogen Zenji, who also has some other teachings, too. This one is hard to find for some reason. But it's in there someplace, huh? Is that in the packet? Is it in the packet? Sorry. It's in the packet. It's in, it's on the, huh? Do I think it is? I think so. I think so by Dogen Zenji's behavior. This is the way he acted when he died. But in order to be able to do this, How's it when you're, you know, gotta like, you gotta like discipline your body and your mind when you're normal during life.

[143:08]

So, you know, you gotta like, wholeheartedly means your whole body is taking refuge. Taking refuge is, you know, you gotta practice dharma, which means... You practice meditating on karma and so on. And you do this in a wholehearted, immovable way. You don't shake off this practice. So all this Zazen practice stuff is really just the same thing as taking refuge in the Triple Treasure to get you so you can do this after you're dead. Okay. The Buddha, you know, he already talked about his past lives and stuff, right? He tells lots of stories about what he used to be up to and Kind of like says that he did some neat stuff in his previous lives. But anyway, he also talks about four, a Buddha said this in two scriptures, he talked about four modes of rebirth. Also, unsurpassed is the blessed Lord's way of teaching Dharma in regard to the modes of rebirth in four ways.

[144:12]

Thus one descends into the mother's womb unknowingly one descends into the womb unknowingly, stays there unknowingly, leaves unknowingly. Or, one enters the womb knowingly, stays there unknowingly, leaves unknowingly. Or, one enters the womb knowingly, stays knowingly, and leaves unknowingly. Or, one enters knowingly, stays knowingly, and leaves knowingly. This is the unsurpassed teaching in regard to the four modes of rebirth. So ordinary beings enter unknowingly, stay unknowingly, and are delivered unknowingly. Enter knowingly, and then blow it from them up. The two chief disciples of Buddha and pratyekabuddhas and bodhisattvas enter knowingly, stay knowingly, but blow it when they're born. That's like most of you guys, probably.

[145:18]

...knowingly, stay knowingly, and they walk out remembering who they are and say, Here I am again. Do you think people can identify some elements or hopes that are core to your environment that might have come from a previous life? What do you mean by foreign to their environment? Like they're born in California and speaking Chinese? Of course, we all speak Chinese in California. Maybe it's better just to speak Norwegian. Nothing so extreme, but having... Yes, most people feel like that. Most people feel like it. except the ones who are actually born in their same house that they died in, which sometimes happens, those people feel like, hey, this is a good spot. Most people feel like, I'm in the wrong place. This is far away from home. I'm a visitor.

[146:21]

A lot of people feel that. They feel far away from home. I think that's quite common. And that's kind of associated with rebirth? Well, that could be evidence, but there's better evidence than that. Well, like we told you, he's in an alien place, but he knows where he was before. He can tell you, and you can take him there. Ask him when they were little. Where did you come from? I came from Spain. I came from Spain. in the suburbs of Barcelona, and you take them there. But before you arrive, you ask them what it looks like, and they tell you. Of course, they've got to be able to talk, right? So you can't get in too early. If you could get in real early, and they could talk, then it'd be fresher. But it fades, you know? It's a big deal to be a little kid. You know, video games, and moms and dads and brothers and sisters kind of get involved in that stuff.

[147:27]

Even kids who remember really care about that stuff. So to ask them early when they can also articulate speech and have a vocabulary to say Spain and stuff. But you could also say, you know, like, Spain, Russia, you know. Yeah, Spain, yeah. They can't hardly say it, but yeah. Huh, Spain? Before, I guess they can say, before they can say milk, they can say, or, you know. So there's ways of finding out probably that way. There's also ways. recognize them and say, I think that's my brother. This is ways too. But the way that seems to be, I think, probably most fruitful is this way of, what do you call it? I mean, the way it's going to work for most people probably is hypnotic regression. Hypnotic regression. So you put the person in trance and then you ask them the questions.

[148:30]

I'd say it fades between 3 and 5 years old. Between 3 and 5 years old is when it's the most... Yeah, that would seem right. As soon as they have a vocabulary... By 5, you've got a pretty good vocabulary. A lot of kids can say Spain, even know where Spain is and what it looks like by the time they're 5. The studies show that if you ask them to come here in the bathtub or it's really quiet time, it's not like all that mind articulating and that sort of thing. They'll go in this little quiet space. Yeah, that makes sense. A little hypnotic, kind of hypnotic. They'll tell you things about the womb and at birth. That seems good, yeah. So anyway, there are these studies on rebirth. Generally speaking, it's harder to remember... This is all fantasy, right? This is all about fantasy. It's all about remembering fantasies that you forgot you used to have. This is not reality.

[149:36]

This is actually an imaginative... constricted in the totality of what's going on. But how did it happen? There's some stories. and you start talking to these people who are hypnotic regression, and you ask them, you know, can you remember your last life? Can you remember the intermediate existence? Can you remember reborn? It looks like it's harder to remember the and before birth than it is to remember previous lives. Ninety-seven percent of the people remember previous lives. No, no. Ninety-five to a hundred... Ninety to ninety-five percent remember previous lives. In the regression, okay. Now, of course, you can say, well, do this. I was going to ask you, Ralph, if you've ever done it. Have I done it? No. Maybe I will. That's 90% to 95% remember previous lives, but under, just remember, intermediate, remember just before birth and birth.

[150:45]

Which is still not bad. because they have thousands of these people doing this, and people are interested in this, so the research is, you know, going on. People are interested in this. To know about their past lives, for some reason. Even people who don't believe it are interested in it. Two-thirds... In the person who's done the kind of major research is a woman whose name is Wambach, and I'm trying to figure out what she's been able to get. Two-thirds of Wambach's subjects were reluctant to be born, but accepted it as a disagreeable necessity. Ninety percent found that pleasant. The inconvenience is that 90% said, it's nice here. In the womb, you mean?

[151:47]

No, not in the womb. No, before the womb. Are these all kids, or are they... No, all adults. I think most of you are adults. Now, who did this research? This person is... It's on the list. It's on the list. Isn't it? Well, if it isn't, I'll put it on. I thought I couldn't put it on. Anyway, I'll get you the citation. I guess it's not on there. It's not on there? It's not? W-A-C-H? These are Americans, by the way. So they're going to be more interested than people in most parts of the world. Although I guess you maybe know that the rebirth is an Indian thing, right? All Indians are Indians. But not just Indians, early Christians too. It was part of the early Christian thing, but the church crushed it. But it took very much part of early Christianity, which maybe spread from India into that arena.

[152:59]

It was mostly the Christians who intervened. Mostly that's what it was about. Not just the Gnostic, the non-Gnostic Christians too. Generally speaking, that was the thing I've heard. But the church didn't like it. Now, okay, so, and this thing about, I told you about before, you know, Okay, so the majority of Buddhist schools say, uh-uh, no intermediate existence. But some very important schools did say there was intermediate existence. And, by the way, some of the schools who said that there wasn't intermediate existence kind of, like, betrayed themselves by the way they tried to prove that there wasn't, because they went into some of Buddhist scriptures and tried to mess around with them, like, you know, changing them or making ridiculous interpretations to try to explain talk, which sort of implied that there was intermediate existence.

[154:02]

The scriptures. What do the scriptures say? The scriptures kind of say that there is intermediate existence, kind of imply it. In those places where it says it, people try to either change the text or interpret it in some silly way. And some people just didn't talk about it. They just said, you know, that's nonsense. But some of the most important texts, like the Abhidharma Kosha, which is so influential in its scholastic masterpiece, Abhidharma Kosha is the one that has a quite detailed description of intermediate existence. Vasubandhu. Chapter 3. There it is. And that scroll, and Vasubandhu and his teaching of Abhidharma Kosha is one of the main texts of Tibetan Buddhism and also one of the main texts of East Asian Buddhism. So in East Asia, This rebirth thing was much more, was very influential among Buddhists, and the Chinese loved it.

[155:07]

Basically thought it was totally cool, this rebirth thing. They didn't have it though before. They loved it. They thought it was fantastic. They went for it, big time. And Japanese and Koreans and so on. Traditions, generally speaking, didn't like it so much. But Vasubandhu put it out there. He also said, this thing I told you about, that the intermediate being looks at the parents in union, and then the one that it prefers, it becomes the opposite sex of, and then joins in the process. And also, some texts say that that's the lust part, right? You're born through desire. So this sexual desire, and your sex is determined by which one you like. You get to be the opposite sex.

[156:08]

You join into the process with the parents. However, it also says that when you actually get in the scene, the baby, the little being, somewhat shocked by the genital activity. It's a little bit bigger scale than they expected. It seems like it's the main event and they get angry at that. They like it at a distance better. They desire it at a distance and when they get up close they think it's kind of gross. And I think there is some children who kind of know about that. They think it's kind of gross. They're totally sexed up and want to mate with their opposing parent, and the Freudians love to hear this. Because not only do you like one of them, but you don't like the other one. So this is like perfect Freudian stuff. Okay. And then you get in there, but you get angry at the grossness of it all when you get up close. It looks good at a distance, you know, those nice shapes and stuff.

[157:08]

But the sort of inner workings of it are repulsive, and you get angry. So you're born through, according to this, you're born through lust and anger. However, in talking to these people who are remembering what it's like, they don't go along with that. They don't substantiate that thing about liking the one. There's very little among women, there's very little Remembering anything about father at that time. They say, well, men are denial even in hypnotic aggression. But anyway, there's not much support to this thing about liking the father for the women and hating the mother. But there's generally kind of a feeling for the mother on both sides, both sexes. And there's very little of this thing about lust, sexual lust. They don't remember that somehow. And there's very little feeling of anger. This doesn't seem to be the thing. That the people are reported.

[158:12]

What kind of feelings do you have for the mother? Are they reported? Not negative feelings. I guess just be aware of the mother. But not resentment and stuff like that. I don't know. I didn't read it yet. Okay, now here's what I thought was really interesting. Is that the reason that one... you know, how come you're getting reborn, they said, 25% wanted to gain additional experience. 18% wanted to work out their relationships with people they knew in the past, lives. 18% wanted to learn to give love. And 27% wanted to teach others. And 12%, huh? 27% wanted to grow spiritually and teach others. and 12% other. Maybe those people are kind of like intersex.

[159:13]

So the early Buddhist story of those who say intermediate existence, Vasubandhu, and he's taking tradition. He doesn't make this by himself. He's got a lot of background for this. It's a really strong emphasis on how much sexual desire has to do with being reborn. This picture, according to these people, is not such a strong issue. Of course they're attracted Huh? Yeah, maybe evolution. Back in Vasubandhi's day, people were sexier. Is this happening in America, this one book? Yeah, this is in the 70s and 80s research. The third category, 18%. It's 25% additional. Two 18%s? Of the two 18%, it's the second one. To learn to give love. The first one was... It's hard to give love when you're dead. If you want to give love, you've got to come back in here and just keep it small.

[160:27]

Slug it up. See if you can love in birth and death. So they want to do it. I don't know what you did first. This is called the Famous Row of Abaya. I think he's a Nigerian who speaks really good English. When I was in England several years ago, I heard this guy on TV. getting some kind of... I guess he got the Booker Prize. I don't know if this is Booker Prize. I guess Booker Prize is American. Booker T. Washington? He's British? Oh, okay. So he got the Booker Award in England. That's what I saw him getting, I guess. So here's all these distinguished British literary people, and here comes this black guy from Nigeria getting insane. He read part of his book or some of his poetry, and I thought it was so good that I wanted to get his book, so I got his book. And so here's how the book starts. Oh, look what I found in the book.

[161:31]

What did they give me? A star and a heart. A little star and a heart, see? A little star and a heart got in there. In the beginning there was a river. The name of this book is The Famished Road. In the beginning there was... Huh? The Famished Road. It's about life in Nigeria. In the beginning, the river became a road, and the road branched out into the whole world. Because the road was once a river, it was always hungry. This road was banished. That's the name of the book, Banished Road. In the land of beginnings, spirits mingled with the unborn. We could assume numerous forms.

[162:39]

These were birds. We knew no boundaries. There was much feasting, playing and sorrowing. We feasted much because of the beautiful terrors of eternity. We played much because we were free. We sorrowed much because there were always some among us or there were always those among us who had just returned from the world of the living. They had returned inconsolable love they had left behind, all the suffering they hadn't redeemed, all they hadn't understood, and for all that they had barely begun to learn before they were drawn back into the land of origins. And those correspond pretty much with the thing to finish love, to work out your relationships, to learn,

[163:45]

Almost perfect correspondence. Maybe he read that book and didn't like this book. Well, maybe not. Maybe this is just for people in Nigeria. There was not one among us in the land of the origins who looked forward to being born. We disliked the rigors, the unfulfilled longings, the enshrined injustices of the world, the labyrinths of love, the ignorance of parents, the fact of dying, and the amazing indifference of the living in the midst of the simple beauties of the universe. I would say, in the amazing ignorance of the living, in the midst of the simple beauties of the universe.

[164:51]

We feared the heartlessness of human beings, all of whom are born blind. We have some exceptions, right? The Buddhas are not born blind. All of whom, with rare exceptions, are born blind, few of whom ever learn to see. He of whom ever learned to see. Our king was a personage who sometimes appeared in the form of a great cat. He had a red beard and eyes of greenish sapphire. He had been born uncountable times and was a legend in all worlds by a hundred different names. It never mattered into what circumstance he was born. He always lived the most extraordinary of lives. One could pore over the great invisible books of lifetimes and recognize his genius through the recorded and unrecorded ages.

[165:59]

Sometimes a man, sometimes a woman, he wrought incomparable achievements of every life. if there was anything common to all of his lives, the essence of his genius, it might well be the love of transformation and the transformation of love into higher realities. With our spirit companions, the ones with whom we had a special affinity, We were happy most of the time because we floated on an aquamarine . We played with fauns, the fairies, and beautiful things. Tender sibyls, benign sprites, and serene presences of our ancestors were always with us, bathing us in the radiant rainbows.

[167:01]

There are many reasons why babies cry when they are born, and one of them is the sudden separation of a world of pure dreams where all things are made of enchantment and where there is no suffering. The happier we were, the closer was our birth. Isn't that neat? Just like bodhisattvas, right? The happier they get, the... diving back into the land of the living with all those rigors, all that practice you have to do there. As we approached another incarnation, we made pacts that we would return to the spirit world at the first opportunity. That's right. We made these vows in fields of intense flowers and in the sweet-tasting moonlight of that world.

[168:11]

Those of us who made such vows were known among the living as Abhiku spiritual children. Not all people recognized us. We were the ones who kept coming and going, unwilling to come to terms with life. We had the ability to will our deaths. Our packs were binding. Then he goes on to tell how he just kept seeing opportunities to die, you know. And his parents kept, stay here, stay here. They'd bring in, they'd spend all their money to get these witch doctors to come and do these ceremonies to keep this kid from going back. Because he was like, this is enough. You know? Things were pretty rough for him, like a lot of kids in the world. But this guy could remember. And he kept going, okay, see you later, Mom.

[169:12]

And she'd run over there trying to get money to get some kind of doctors to come and stay, stay, stay. The guy sort of gave up and decided to stay for a while. So you actually do it. Buddhists have that thing, too. Sometimes they kind of start drifting off, so you've got to ask them to stay. Now here comes this part about pro-life and stuff like that. Pro-choice. Kind of good news for the poor choice, but not entirely. So these people, you ask them now, when does your soul enter the fetus? 33% entered before or during the birth process. Just before or while being delivered. 33%, Andrew. Who's saying this? The people who are going back into that time, they're a little bit less than 50% who could remember.

[170:19]

You ask the people, well, can you remember what it was like, previous life? 90% to 95% say, yeah, they tell you. But then you say, can you remember when you were born this time? And only about 49% or something can remember the inusual time and shortly after. But among those, 33% entered just before birthdays, they felt, or during the birth process. And there's one example of two twins, both remembering, who were fighting just before birth over which body to take. And you know, there's recent studies about these twins who, you know, a lot more twins are conceived than we know, and then one dies, and then there's a lot of, and then the ones who survive are guilty about something. They think maybe they killed their spouse, their partner. Those are ones that are in earlier. These two are coming in at the last minute and fighting over it.

[171:20]

They did, however, both, they figured it out. They were born, grew up, and did the study. 20% were outside the fetus during the... They didn't want to be in that grindy little area, but they just hung out right outside. 20% were in and out. They'd sort of drop in for a while, you know, and go outside back in. 5% were still able to leave the fetus even after birth. attached after this, you know, twelve percent attached to it after six months. Huh? Attached to the, you know, the womb after six months, twelve percent. In other words... Intermediate, the spirit, the intermediate being, right?

[172:24]

It's dependently co-arisen, whatever you want to call it, subtle body, blah, blah, blah, intermediate existence, however you want to conceive of it, this thing... The part that remembers. The part that remembers, yeah, the part that remembers, the part that you can remember, and that remembered, the part you can remember, okay? Twelve percent came in after six months, so it's got this deep... You know, in other words, got the ones right around the birth time, that's the majority, actually. And then... And then another 12% were from right around back to the last nine months, in the last three months. Only 11% were in the first six months. So according to this, Yeah, there's not too many of the first six months have the little critters in there in terms of the soul.

[173:25]

But 11% are there, so be careful. By one in ten chance that you're gonna mess with some little divine being. Not exactly grateful. No, they're not exactly grateful. They're irritated by it, but, you know, they're going to go back and say, here's a little excuse, right? They're not exactly grateful for this harassment they get here. We're not, you know... Buddhists are grateful for the harassment. This is helping them clear up all their past crime and get out of the whole thing and not go up to where those people are. Those people are still hooked into this, but it's not bad because... The happier they get, the sooner they come back. 86% were aware of feelings and thoughts of their mothers before they were born. Where was the sample?

[174:31]

It's Lombok. Do you know about the makeup of the sample? No. You have to read the book. And there are people who are willing to do this regression thing, and not all Americans are willing to do that, I suppose. Not all Americans have the spare time, but... A lot of people, a lot of Americans are interested in religion. And a lot of Americans are interested in this thing about whether... They don't necessarily believe it yet, but they're willing to do the experiment. This is research, right? Even those who don't believe might still be interested to check it out. What's the assumption that they have later verbal memories of something when they... Well, I think they can articulate something that they couldn't maybe articulate verbally at the time and say, you work them back probably, you guide them, and then they sort of like are there, and then you ask them, now they have verbal things and they just say what they saw.

[175:36]

Just like when you... I can describe things that I saw At the time, I couldn't talk, but now I can tell you what it looked like. You know? At the time, you couldn't say boat or, you know, storm or airplane, but when you look, you can see, oh, it was an airplane. It was a hospital. So you don't necessarily have to... I don't know. Well, I had an experience of remembering. Uh-huh. And it was extremely difficult to articulate their feelings. But it was... It took quite a lot of effort to... words to say. Was it in hypnosis? It was in psychosis. It was a beautiful feeling. Well, that's one of the advantages of hypnosis is sometimes it makes it easier to... Because you're freer to... Yeah.

[176:42]

Hypnosis, bathtub, you know, relax. There's various ways in which people feel able to let this stuff out. So anyway, there is some evidence being developed in somewhat scientific research to... And you can test a lot of this stuff with statistics and stuff like that. It can be applied. That this rebirth, this intermediate existence thing, has something to it. And that this thing about no intermediate existence... all the philosophically cooler. This world is not so tidy as we might think. It's kind of tacky in a way, but also it's kind of beautiful and loving. A lot of this text applies too. So we're willing in some ways to come down into this limited, twisted, defined situation. My thing, which I'd like to say, is that it can be argued that beginningless birth does not necessarily mean infinite.

[177:49]

The fact that you can't find a beginning doesn't mean necessarily infinite. And a lot of this infinite talk that some Buddhists use is maybe, what do you say, what do you call it, an exaggeration, which means really a lot. Really a lot, but not strictly speaking infant. Yes? I remember doing a reading about this study of people in hospitals. 20% of hospitalized patients have had after-death experiences. Or they, you know, they remember. dead, and then coming back to life. 20% of the people in that study. Yeah.

[178:52]

There was an accident where a family was in a car. They had a car accident. And some of the people died, and some of the people lived. And some of the people died and they came back and knew which ones were dying and which ones were dying. And there's been a high percentage. A high percentage sure is. So this, you know, one of the things that attracted me to Buddhism was that body and mind are one, that teaching. And I think that body and mind are one, is true in a sense, in a sense that body and mind are interdependent. You can work on one by working on the other, and I like that, that you can work on your mind through your body and the meditation, the physical meditation is an expression of your understanding. I like that. In my room, you know, there's this picture now on the wall there of a person sitting in Zazen, and when I saw that picture,

[180:00]

I really attracted that picture of the body in meditation. And on the bottom of the picture it said, in bold it said, in deepest thought. And I saw that and I said, yes, deepest thought, your body should look a certain way with your deepest thought. When it's really deep, your body should show it, you know. And if it's deep, the body should be beautiful. I thought that's what I felt. And this is a beautiful body. Not, you know, he wasn't a handsome person. It's just the form of the meditation was beautiful. And to me, that's body and mind are one. The beauty of your thinking, if you're thinking deeply, your body shows it. So the Zen practice is nice because, or Buddhist practice is nice because it's these beautiful forms that we put our body in to express our beautiful intention. But there's also dualism between body and mind, and the interdependence between the two. Because of that dualism, the mind can look down at the body.

[181:05]

You have these experiences around death that somehow this interdependent, this dependently co-arisen mind, which depends on the body, can also move away and look back at the body. The body's like, people say it's dead, you know, in a sense. And it can go back in. And at birth, too, it can move away and back. And in the embryological period, it can move away and back. So, I mean, when I say that that can happen, I mean people are saying that that's what's going on for them. It's experience. It's not reality. It's just experience. Yes? I've got... Seven or eight years ago, I got electrocuted at work, and it was like the worst possible way of working, but in one hand and out the other, so it was crossing the heart. It just happened all of a sudden.

[182:07]

And while it was happening, I had this really distinct recollection of being about three feet up and behind my head. I was completely frozen. I couldn't get off. My muscles were all locked. And I watched myself, and I could hear myself screaming, but this part that was watching... You saw the back of your head instead of the front of your head? Yeah. It was almost like looking down at a periscope or something. And I could hear myself screaming, but the part that was watching wasn't screaming. It was just a... It was just happening. And I remember feeling really peaceful and thinking, you know, I'm gonna die. Neat. Pretty interesting. Kind of pleasant. Yeah, and then I guess I shook loose enough to get off of it. You decided to come back. I don't remember deciding.

[183:10]

Welcome back, brother. Welcome back. We're glad to hear it. Let's hear it from Brad. We got him back. We got him back. To carry on the work. Hallelujah. That's great. How long did it last? I think... I mean, in my perception, it seemed like a very long time. Did anybody see it? Yeah, there were two guys standing right next to me. Did they say how long it was? They were both scared shitless. They thought I was kidding at first, and then by the time they realized I was serious, it had come loose, and it was five, ten seconds later. Ten seconds later, huh? Yeah, I think any longer, I would have been dead. Yeah, maybe it wasn't ten seconds. That's a long time to be shaken. Yeah, that's a long time. I can remember several distinct screams. It wasn't just a single shout. Well, five to ten seconds maybe. That's fantastic. It's fantastic.

[184:24]

So... So what else about rebirth here do I want to mention tonight? I think that's enough for now. Anyway, I think, you know, it's kind of fun that we live in this incredibly powerful country where religion's really hopping and And we're studying this stuff. And we're not rigid about anything. We're just learning and studying and doing research about what's going on, right? Rick, do you think it's unwholesome to participate in one of these studies, kind of in terms of? No, I don't think it's unwholesome. No? I think this stuff, I think, is for the sake of the welfare of all beings, I think it would be fine. By the way, before I forget, I want to say thank you to Galen for leading my sitting group in San Francisco tonight.

[185:32]

And sorry you missed our fun time this evening, but I hope you can listen to this tape. What a day for Galen. Anyway, it's more than a birthday message, not a presentation. Grace, did you want to say something? Well, I have a question. I mean, also, I want to thank you very much. I won't be here tomorrow. Oh, of course. And I've really tremendously enjoyed this. I had a thought. I mean, one of the things I do is I take care of, for many years, took care of people with late-stage AIDS. And one of the things that's always struck me is that people would say... okay, I'm ready to die. And then I'd sort of look at them and say, what, you know, we'll see. And then maybe a year and a half later they might die. But just as we have this whole thing about wanting to have children, a lot of women wanting to get pregnant, and you think, okay, now that I'm ready to get pregnant, I'm just going to get pregnant.

[186:37]

Well, it doesn't happen like that, and it doesn't happen with dying either, you know what I mean? Simply because somebody is ready to die doesn't at all mean anything about whether you're going to die. You know, we don't have a lot of conscious control over death. So that's one question. And I'm going to ask this tomorrow when you all think some more about, you know, if it comes up, it's sort of... Maybe it's flighty. It's like your cloning question, how people feel about assisted suicide. One of the reasons that I think that these studies are really important is goes on all the time about what do you want to do about death. To me and Fermi, it's not a benign question. Well, the Supreme Court just said no. But that doesn't... Yeah. It still doesn't seem much.

[187:38]

I mean, that's how much it's in the consciousness of this country that the Supreme Court got to... I would just like to say one thing, maybe we could talk about this a little bit, because you won't be here tomorrow, okay? And since you're working in this area, it would be nice for you to contribute your sense, okay? But one thing I want to say about rebirth is that, you know, so one tradition says there's death and there's rebirth, that's it. Another tradition says that there's a maximum of 49 days, which is 7 times 7, all right? Vasubha comes down, he knows that tradition, but he comes down saying, actually, it's kind of indefinite how long it takes for the various conditions to come together for rebirth. And we studied the funeral ceremonies of sotas this spring in the priest meetings, and we

[188:44]

in the teaching of the way Japanese Zen Buddhists do the funeral ceremonies and the memorial ceremonies, their attitude is that this being might actually go on a really long time.

[188:58]

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