I am not able to taste the truth of that, of how it tastes. We discussed case 63, which I think is called Jojo Asks About Death. And the question is, after after the great death. And Todza says, you don't go by night.

[01:10]

You must arrive in the daylight. Is that right? And that was towards the end of a long interaction that they had. So one way to view this story is that the central question is, after you let go of all attachment, how is it? Or after you're a Buddha, how is it? And we spent some time talking about the process of becoming attached.

[02:28]

And then we talked a little bit about what it's like when you come back from this kind of death to attachment to a new life of compassion. But what's compassion like after you have no attachment? There can be compassion before one has a real attachment. Even while still holding on to something, you can still really sincerely I hope that someone or many people or everybody would be free of suffering. I mean, basically your heart could be totally up for that and you could be also willing to work for that with a lot of effort. But if we're attached, attachment undermines

[03:42]

can interfere with that completely sincere wish. Matter of fact, the attachment can make us completely forget about it, as though we obliterate it in a given moment, which is exactly the time when it lives or doesn't live. But you could really feel it, and that attachment could obscure it. So what's it like when you don't have that hindrance anymore? When you're no longer forgotten or destructive by attachment? And so we talked a little bit about how one... How do you say how one... conducts oneself to realize non-attachment, and how one, in other words, practices undefiled meditation, undefiled way of life that is non-attachment.

[04:55]

And this last weekend I did a workshop, Buddha's Teaching of Love, and I'd just like to briefly mention that. In order to let go of attachment, in order to have the courage to be who we are and feel what it's like to be someone who is like us, who is us, who may have some attachment, in order to be able to settle into that situation, deeply into it, to see what's going on. And then by seeing what's going on, realize this great debt. In order to do that, this kind of courageous confrontation of our situation, in context of, you know, complete love.

[06:06]

And so, I just want to say that and mention that is that you really wish and intend that you yourself would be at peace and happy and buoyant in body and mind. And that you would really hope for yourself that you would be in safety and unharmed. And that you would really hope for yourself that you'd be free of anger and affliction, fear and anxiety. that you really hope that for yourself, and that you would actually be happy to give that to yourself, and that you give it to yourself so fully that you give it as you want to give it to others too.

[07:17]

You want the same for others. And you hope this for yourself so fully, you really do hope it for others. and you hope it for others so fully that you actually learn how to hope it for all others. And because you hope it for yourself and all others, you realize that that hope is coming back to you, and you are also... Everything's hoping for you that too. And with this kind of giving to yourself, giving to others, and being given to, in that context, with that kind of support, we can do this rather difficult work. which sets up the great death. So we go into the great death. We go down into, like we say, we go down into the deep, dark cave of the green dragon. But we go down surrounded by love and suffused by love.

[08:19]

If we go down there loving to ourselves and loving to others and being loved by others, It's just too cold and wet, you know, and slimy and full of broken glass and stuff like that to stay there. If you have enough love and you understand that you need to do this work, you can actually go down and see the roots of all this stuff. and be free of the roots and be free of the stems which give rise to attachment. Then this love which you felt and this compassion which you felt will be unhindered and you won't forget about it, even though it may not look like they're coming up to you and saying,

[09:24]

Do you remember about this love thing? Do you remember that you have great compassion? People might not come to you and say, you know, we're really grateful you're so great, you're so compassionate, you're so loving, we're so happy to see you. You're so wonderful. Even when they don't talk to you like that, you still might be able to remember. Even when they talk to you like, when they say to you, you're so uncompassionate, you're such a lousy, selfish creep. Even when they say that, you won't forget. Because you're not holding on and shutting your eyes to what you really want to do. So if you wish to realize great compassion, and in other words, when you understand it, in order to realize great compassion, you have to, like, not be holding on to anything in your mind and your heart so that you can embrace all beings and walk through birth and death with them, then you understand you have to let go.

[10:50]

And letting go is not something you can do. It's something that happens when you understand that you can't hold on to anything because there's nothing there to hold on to and there's nobody to hold on to anything. There is somebody, but it's not a gripper. It's just, you know, it's just you and everybody else who aren't gripping each other, who are just supporting each other, who aren't attached to each other. You don't have to hold on to have a relationship. So in order to see, you really need to have an ongoing love exchange with yourself and with everybody else. You need to give to them. Now, you can't make them give to you. They already are. But again, if you can see, if you know, if you're really sure you're giving love to other people, then you start to see they're giving it to you.

[11:51]

If you're not sure you're giving love to other people, you're not sure they're giving it to you. And even if you really feel like you are giving love to some people, not see that they're giving it to you. So, love also means that you don't like think that this is love and this is not love that they're giving to you. You have to sort of like do that part too. That's part of love. Anyway, it is reality that love is supporting you. Because of that support, you can do your work. That's reality. You just have to sort of get with the program. of the reality of love, then you can deal with the program of the unreality of your separate existence. Okay? And then, after you die this way, then you can be totally yourself like these weirdos in this book, you know, who just, you know, do what they do.

[12:56]

They're just blossoming all the time, you know, walking around, interacting with each other, asking each other who they are, and trying to, you know, get some tea and salt off them. Okay, so that's a little review of K63. Jiaojiao asks about death. And also, remember about those, about the, don't forget about the geese and the goose and the fish. The goose and the fish. Now it says, it says in the case, it says you can't depend on the goose and the fish to deliver the, to deliver But the goose and the fish did deliver the message, didn't they kind of?

[14:05]

What do you think they mean by you can't depend on the goose and the fish to deliver the message? Did you understand that part? I mean, in one sense, you could understand it by, do you know about the goose and the fish? Well, the goose, this lady got kidnapped. She was a lady, kind of like, you know, upper class lady. She got kidnapped by some kind of barbarians. And she wanted to send a message back to her family. Wrote a little message out saying, you know, I'm here with these barbarians. And she put the message, she wrapped the message inside of some wax and put the wax around the neck of a goose. which I guess she knew the migration routes of these geese. They flew over her native area. I guess she was hoping that when they landed in a native area, her people, who were constantly looking for her, any signs of her, would see, hey, look at the goose.

[15:14]

It's got some wax ball around its neck. Perhaps it's a message from someone. Let's go look to see what it is. So she thought that might happen. But what happened was that when the goose got to her neighborhood, things were going pretty well. The goose did get there with the little message. When it was drinking water, the wax ball fell off the goose into the water and officiated. But then somebody caught the fish, and they cut the fish open, and they found a little wax ball. They opened it up, and they read the message, and then they went and told her family about it. And then her family went back to these guys and said, well, you know, we know you got our kid. Here's the message. So they got it back. But it says you can't depend on the goose and the fish.

[16:19]

convey the message or the words. Can you depend on the goose and the fish or not? What does that mean to you? This is about daytime, right? Or is it about nighttime? Is this about day or night? Do you understand? I don't. Yes. Do you understand? No, I don't know if I understand. But when you said it could have two day and night, I have something to say about that. Okay. Which is that it seems like the agreement with the fish are on the night side of that equation. That the night stands for kind of the one consciousness or oneness. non-duality, that the animals, which can be used like in terms of subject and object, would fall off to the side of the night. And daylight stands for differentiating consciousness. Yeah. Meaning you would be differentiating consciousness. So you think the animals are at night? So then that would make sense that it couldn't depend on the night.

[17:24]

That make sense? Animals are the night. But we need the light of words somehow. We have to talk. Sorry. That's part of what this case is saying. You can't deliver this compassion. You can't deliver the compassion in the dark. You can't deliver it. It doesn't count to deliver it in this pure state like an animal. The animals... Very important, though. The animal's kind of like, you know, where we are talking. There's no problems with the animal. Right? The animal's no problem. No suffering, no self, no other. Before we make things, it's like animals don't have self and other, and so on. But we can't depend on the animals.

[18:28]

But the animal's are our teachers and they tell us in some ways about what death is about, this kind of great death. When animals come to us, they say, but we can't depend on that realm to deliver the compassion. We have to come back into the world of language and say stuff like, well, I heard about Tozu, wow, but now I just see an old man carrying oil around. Well, you don't know about Tozu. All you see is an old man carrying oil. What is Tozu? Oil. So how is it after the Great Death?

[19:28]

Then what? Don't go by night, arrive in the day. From the beginning, I've been a thief. But you can even steal from me. This is talk. This is post-death talk. If you're coming back from the animal realm, We can't depend on the great ones to convey the great compassion. Even though, when we see them, they're reminding us of where we need to go all the time. We need to keep dying and dying of our attachment. They're saying, come. Come. Come to the land before you think it's possible to violate the precepts.

[20:30]

Come to the land where you cannot violate the precepts. Come to the land where it is impossible. It's impossible. No one can even... Come here. And then after you come here, then go back in a world where you can kill and don't. Does this make sense to everybody? I'm afraid to say it doesn't if it doesn't. I'm afraid to say it does. I didn't ask if it did, did I? Did I? Did I? Did I? Good. So, I don't trust the animal. Kathir says, don't trust goose or fish.

[21:35]

I just thought it's possible to trust goose and animal. Well, I think trust the animals, but don't trust the animals to deliver the message. You have to deliver the... Animals can't deliver the message. You have to do it with your own mouth. As soon as you say that they couldn't be entrusted to, which is a little bit... And whether they could be trusted, whether they could be dependent upon, that it hasn't been made the option to accept it as it is, that somehow, possibly, you know, it couldn't be entrusted to them, it needs to be inducted, it needs to be given to someone else. I mean, it has to be entrusted, but... Yeah, so don't depend on the animal. to deliver the message. Okay? That you mean? Well, it includes that, but I wonder if there's also something else going on about whether you possibly could be entrusted to the animal.

[22:39]

Like, maybe the animals are trustworthy, but they're not actually in position to be entrusted to them. Right. They're trustworthy. You can trust them to be animals, but you can't trust them to deliver the message. So, the realm of The realm you enter when you die, it's a trustworthy realm, it's a wonderful realm, actually. You should trust it, you need to go there. Do you trust that you need to go there? I guess you all do, probably, right? Don't you all trust that? Probably you do, because you came to Zen's name. You trust that you have to die of your attachments, right? You trust that, you trust that realm, right? But what many people do, they trust that realm, or entrust great compassion to that realm. And that's not the realm that does great compassion. Great compassion is wanting to come back into the world where there's somebody, where there's appearance of somebody. Not really somebody, but because you died, so you know it's not. You have to play the game of somebody else now and talk to them.

[23:44]

So you don't depend on the realm. You have to go there. It's required to go there, but don't depend on that to carry out the compassion. Does that make sense? Is that what you're saying? I mean, that makes sense. Are you making a more subtle point? Well, I just wanted to ask a question whether it was possible to entrust it to them. Not a question of dependability, but whether it was even possible to entrust it. You know how you can... Forget about them, right? Just whether you can... Right? That you mean? Well, I guess to put it just in, can you only entrust to something that has dualistic consciousness? Does the process of entrustment happen in part through differentiating consciousness? The process of entrustment would require that you come up with... That's what I was saying. So that you need to not only the person who conveys it, do it in a differentiated consciousness, but the person to whom it's being entrusted to also has to have it.

[24:54]

It could be entrusted to the animals if they were in one consciousness. So that means to deliver it, you need to be in the daylight, but also to receive it. That's what I'm asking. To receive it, you also need to be in the daylight. You can only be entrusted to There's several things. First of all, when you're in the dark, you couldn't trust that the dark would work. That make sense? When you're in the dark, you can't trust that the dark will fulfill compassion because you can't even think of that, of trusting the situation. When you think of trusting the dark, you're actually backing the light, thinking that the dark's good enough. you don't think of doing anything. But when you're actually born again in that space, you should understand that you shouldn't trust the dark. In other words, you have to work. That's one part, right? Does that make sense?

[25:55]

In the dark, you can't think of entrusting... It's not... There's nothing, there's no you there, or there's no need for compassion. But when you're... If you enter that realm and you're a living human being, when you come out, naturally, you come back into consciousness again and you remember. But you might think, well, that realm of freedom would be good enough. Well, it's not. So, if you think of entrusting, that's in the realm of the light. But you shouldn't entrust the dark. You shouldn't trust And your words then will be the words in your face, in your body, your speech, your body, and your thoughts. These are light, these are things in the light. And you can entrust them. They can be used to convey passion which is now free.

[27:02]

And then everything you do is then a vehicle for this construction. But some people think he wanted to mention, Tobes wanted to mention, you can't use the realm of death. You can't use the dark to help people. After you're alive again, you've got to use the things of life. After you're in light again, you have to use the things of life. You can't use the dark. But in a way, problem for you, but some people in the history of the Zen school, the so-called Zen school, or in the landscape where the Zen school grew up, some people thought they could use the dark. They thought they could use emptiness. Attachment, that's a way to convey compassion, but you have to come back into form to convey compassion, which means speech, you know, talking, using your body and using your mind.

[28:14]

So if someone says, what does Pavalokiteshvara use all those hands and eyes for? Right? Isn't that the question? And you said, it's like reaching for the pillow in... It's like reaching for your pillow in the night. It's like reaching for your pillow in the night. So Linda's saying, is that not really in the dark? Is that your question? I understood that as compassion. Yeah, it's compassion. So it's nighttime. And then you get kind of like out of touch with your pillow, right? So then you wake up, kind of wake up, and you say, now where's that pillow? And you reach for it, okay? You reach for the pillow. It's like that.

[29:14]

That's how Oblokiteshvara uses her hand. Okay? Like that. Or sometimes like... Or sometimes... So Linda's saying, is that not really in the dark? What do you think I'm going to say? It's not in the dark. It's not in the dark. Now you might say, does that mean like there's a night light on your room? The light is me and my pillow. or me and you. That's the light. But, how does compassion function between me and you? Kind of like that. Kind of like, where do your goosebumps take you? You just reach. You don't say, this is compassion.

[30:18]

Boom. Was that helpful? Did I get the pillow? Well, not... Well, let's try again. Oh, where is that pillow anyway? You know. Yeah. It's like, you know, you're free of attachment. And you're looking for your pillow at night. Where do you go? You kind of like go like that. But if you're attached, you're looking for your pillow, it's going to be a pretty sad situation, right? Can you imagine like having an attachment about how to look for your pillow at night? We're not usually that attached about it, right? Yes, reach. Now, if you keep reaching, your attachments get activated again, and then it's not like avalokiteshvara anymore. It's kind of like, you know, it's kind of like, well, where is the pillow? That's not avalokiteshvara. Well, you know, it's compassionate to start working on you.

[31:22]

I mean, I didn't, you know, I tried to be nice. No, it's like that over and over. So I'd say that's in the light. That's another example of showing what's it like in the light after you've been in the dark. It's very normal. It's very lively. It's kind of like just completely ordinary, unhindered, before you even, you know, you're unhindered. And there's a number of things we do in our life which are kind of unhindered. We don't necessarily notice, but they're there, like tapping the knee. The knee being tapped at the doctor's office. The knee goes, the leg goes, whoop, whoop. That's unhindered. If it's hindered, the doctor says, we've got a problem here. There's a neural blockage. The knee's not responding. The knee's actually quite free. You've got a free knee there. I mean, not knee. You've got a free knee and you tap.

[32:25]

That's free, right? Just like... Don't touch it, you just sit there, whap it, click, boop. That's freedom. That's enlightenment. How do you know? You bring a Buddha in, hit the knee, what happens? Same as you. That's enlightenment. It's a Buddha, right? So it's enlightenment. Buddha does the same thing as you. You see Buddha, you say, hi. Buddha says, hi. All right. Yeah. Same as you. But if you say, if you say, you know, what's reality to you, then you might stop to think. But Buddha just responds. Doesn't think about, you know, what's the right answer or something. So it's like that. So I'd say that was in the light. That's another and the same question. What does Avalokiteshvara do with all his hands? Don't

[33:27]

depend don't don't don't go in the night come in the daytime okay but that's what before they even got to that dialogue that's what they were doing they were coming in the light for each other that's what they were doing they're coming in the light i would say they were happily coming in the light both of them always in touch with the dark always in touch with the dark, coming in the light, touch with the dark, coming in the light, coming in the light, dying, giving compassion. And then so in Zen practice or Zen training, what you want to do is you want to die, experience death, and then see after death, see what you do. And if you think you died, then you watch. you know, act with others. Did that look like, did that look like something coming out of death? You ask the people and they say something and you say, nah. So you go back and forth like that, playing.

[34:29]

And if you don't think you died, you might be right. You still think you're attached. But then you have to, you know, do your deep work of looking at... You know, I, I heard this person talking the last few days, and I'd like to hear what you're saying. I know from her, I know a story about her, that she's been, for some time, she's been looking at, she's been looking into, she's kind of painfully looking into She'd like things to go, but I guess she'd been painfully looking into it. Things had not been going the way she likes them to go. She was hoping that things would go differently. She had certain plans of how practice would go, and they weren't going that way, and it was so painful for her.

[35:36]

So painful. I thought, yeah, sounds good for it to go that way. That would be great. So she had some really good stories, which, again, they sound just right. And the way things were going were not that way, in which they didn't sound too good. And she was having a hard time, but she was looking and suffering with things not going the way she was planning. She was seeing that open up. And I was listening to her lately, and she really can talk now. Kind of like, she can just talk. Pretty much, just like say what she has to say. I think she got pretty close to the depth there. Looking at the place where we're trying to make things go a certain way and you're not going that way. That's what it means to look at the roots of the attachment. Because when you're attached, things don't go the way we want them to.

[36:38]

If you think they do, you're just not looking very deeply. They're not going the way you want them to. And you say, well, yeah, I know, but they're close enough. Well, you're spaced out if you think that. Anyway, she wasn't spaced out, and she would have liked to have been spaced out, but she couldn't either get spaced out or have things go the way she wanted to, so she wouldn't be able to, not wouldn't be able to, but she wouldn't be confronted with how painful it is for things, for the practice to not go the way she wanted it to. But It wasn't so much that, from my point of view, it wasn't so much that the practice wanted it to. It wasn't. That's a factor. But that she saw that. And she couldn't get away from it, which was, you know, it's not really to her credit exactly or to her discredit, but it's just a wonderful thing that she could. So she had to practice because she couldn't ignore it.

[37:43]

that she didn't have things under control, that she was not in control, and that she was still trying to be in control. And she just watched that. And so now, by watching that, by being forced to look at that for a long time, she can talk. Somehow she's somewhat free to be able to say what she has to say. Do you understand? It's really nice. Congratulations to you, whoever you are. Could she not talk before? Well, she was a little bit, I mean, like before when she had something to say, if she thought it was stupid, she wouldn't say it. Smart, maybe she was like really excited and, you know, got ahead of herself or something. But now she sort of says what she has to say, which is exactly what she's supposed to say. Just say what you have to say. That's it. Doesn't have to be good or bad. You have something to say. Sometimes you don't. That's fine too. You can do it. You can shut up when you don't have anything to say.

[38:45]

You can do that. You don't have to talk. Matter of fact, you don't have anything to say when you don't have anything to say. When you have something to say, still accordingly, you might have something to say, but still wait until somebody else finished their sentence. That would be all right. But then you can talk. It's like what I was saying in the one day sitting a while ago. If you discipline your hands like this for a long time, and you hold your hands in this mood for a long time, and you feel... these hands trying to like be the way you think they should be and then also that you haven't you know they're not that way or they are that way or they aren't that way or like them to be some other way you just face that struggle of your hands in this form for a long time and your hands gradually become free they turn into like little dancers they're like baby's hands before babies learn what they're supposed to do with their hands and feeling the pain of the discipline which means the pain of facing if you have any you know agenda of control of attachment attachment control power that is you face that and you face that that's the dream

[40:03]

And it's now having the support to be able to face it. So you need some enough love to be able to look at this painful picture. So anyway, I'm just saying, I know she was having a really hard time. She was having a really hard time with this discipline she was in. Which was like, you know, it's more like this, you know, I came here to do this, and now they tell me I can't do this. I have to go like, you know, I don't know what, I took it like this. And this is not Zen, this is not, this is Zen. But they're not letting me do this. I try to do this, you know, or I'm having problems with this and I want to talk to them about this and they won't talk to me about it. They say it's not really worth talking about, but I want to talk about it and so on. That ongoing challenge that gradually you train yourself and you die. And then you can talk and move your hand. And your hands move and you talk. So anyway, I just saw an example of that recently. And at the time, I wasn't exactly happy she was going through the difficulty.

[41:10]

What I was happy about was that she could tell me. Because the fact that she could tell me, then I knew she was seeing it. She was seeing it. That was really what was great. And she was having a hard time, but she... You know, she was seeing it. That means she had the courage to see it. She didn't say, I'm courageous, or I didn't think she was courageous exactly, but she was because she was looking at it. So on some level, she was being supported to do that hard work. The world was supporting her. She was supported to do that. And she also didn't even, she didn't really understand she was being supported sometimes. She thought she was being tortured. But actually she was being tortured. Because the torture was just because things weren't going the way she wanted them to. But she could see it. So now she's pretty free.

[42:13]

The problem is that she's not in a torture chamber anymore. So she might slip back into having an easy time. And then she won't be able to talk in her room. How are you guys doing? Do you? Like, are you thinking, do I have to go through that in order to be free? Is that the way it has to be for everybody? I don't know. Maybe there's some other ways, you know. Probably there are. Sun... Buddha. 20 years of bitter struggle. How many times have I gone down into the Green Dragon Cave for you, clear-eyed, patch-robed monks?

[43:14]

Don't take this lightly. You don't have to go do this thing. Maybe you can get there some other way. Maybe there's some, like, a little bit easier way to get there. I don't know. There might be. But if you have to go the hard way, like all these, a lot of these people in the Zen tradition, if you have to go the hard way, What do you call it? Take this bitter medicine. Sweet fruit of freedom. If you happen to have to go that way, you've got company. All the Buddhas are with you, rooting for you. They've done the same thing. Pretty much they all did the same practice. But you've got to understand you've got a lot of support. Otherwise, If you're doing it, then you don't have to understand you've got a lot of support because, in fact, you're accepting the support. But if you're not doing this kind of practice, then you need to get more love in your program so that you can do the work.

[44:16]

You'll naturally go down there if you start doing this work. You'll naturally want to find out what's the source of the problems for which I wish myself freedom. I just mentioned this is kind of like current events, which just, I think, apply to this case. Current events, you know what I mean by current events? Person who lives around here, who can talk. It's nice. And I'm just telling you, not only is this good news that she can talk, but I know her history, and it's been a bitter one. And it was bitter right to this point. I just want to mention one of the current event things that Sued Kutchins gave me some herbs to take. And I drink them in the morning. And they're very bitter. And I can't remember. I'm supposed to take them four times, three times a day.

[45:18]

Or four times a day. I think four times a day I'm supposed to take. But I can't remember to take it during the day. So I take it all in the morning. And I asked him, you know, I said, is it okay to take it all? And he said, no, it's better to take it before each meal, but I can't remember to take it before each meal. So I said, is it better to take it all at once in the morning rather than not take it? He said, yeah. So I drink this thing in the morning, and it's so bitter, and you know, I feel so good to taste something really bitter. I think there's something off if we don't have bitterness in your life. If you do, I say, I say good. It's for the heart? You didn't have something, yeah. Yeah. If you go through the day without any bitterness, it's part of your life.

[46:21]

Now, you shouldn't necessarily eat something bitter that's poisonous. But some bitter, bitter, I feel so good after I have that, you know, it's like, well, let's go to the zendo now. you know got that over with nobody has any faces that are as bitter as that So, I just thought I'd mention, some bitterness is really helpful. Really helpful. Yeah. It also seems like, you know, that bitterness or being in prison yourself, because if not, then you can't relate to other people. Right. Or you can't relate to other people who are having bitterness, because you might be afraid of them. Because they might drag you into the land of bitter. Anything else on Case 63 that you'd like to discuss? Ready, son? Letting go a little, get a little freedom.

[47:23]

Let it go a little more, a little bit more. That one you mean? Yeah, go ahead. I think that you interpreted what I was saying, meaning kind of a half-hearted experience of letting go and forgiving the person. I feel misunderstood. I was perfect. I appreciate it. But I don't quite understand why. Is it possible to, in the course of just your ordinary mundane experiences, to find a little bit of encouragement in maybe, for example, noticing a shift in one dog's plant pattern and noticing what difference it makes if one actually can't let go of, say, a revolver or a guitar or whatever in a small way.

[48:33]

I think that that is, like, incredibly encouraging and can personally kind of be, you know, accepted. Mm-hmm. [...] No, it's pretty good. You should check your breath out and take a nice step. Every step you get closer, it's encouraging, yeah. And now I'm actually in the cave. And there's the dragon. I'll just stand like that here for a little while. Okay, now I'm going to take a step towards the dragon. Every step you take, I think that increases your confidence and very encouraging.

[49:34]

Thank you. Just a little question. Wasn't there something that was on the OLL? Yeah. What was that? I said it, didn't I? Yeah. Well, they're down at the bottom of Toad's Mountain. So Jojo goes up the mountain and hangs out there waiting for Toad to come back. So Toad comes back. carrying some oil, okay? And then Gyalgyo says, Kozy sees him and says, I've heard about you for a long time. I've heard about Kozy for a long time, but now I just see an old man carrying oil. And Kozy says, you don't see Kozy, you see an old man carrying oil. Or you see an old man carrying oil, you don't see Kozy. You can read that as oily oil or oil oil.

[50:46]

And then it says, well, I thought I would repeat, but you can steal from me. Okay. Anything else on case 63? Yes. I think the only, like, these guys were, like, really great musicians, if you think about it. Musicians, yeah. Yeah, they were very rhythmic on that. I think musicians are willing to play together, like, because, you know, they're good musicians. Yeah. I think some good musicians can see good musicians, even in a different form, you know? Something like a cello player, maybe a really great cello player can see somebody, maybe can see a, what do you call it, a Rastafarian musician as really good. What do you call that kind of music?

[51:49]

Reggae. Reggae. Yo-Yo Ma probably can appreciate reggae when it's really, really good. But they also, I think, really good musicians can see then students as musicals. These guys were musicians, you know, with their bodies and their voices. They were making music. Uh-huh. Yeah? Vernon? It just occurred to me that when you said oil, uh, Gago already knew asking the question, uh, what you've gone on for great death was. Yeah. Because, uh, He had already given him the answer, so he was basically asking him something that he knew the guy already had the answer to. Yeah, they were already doing it. And you could see the other guy already knew the answer, but he asked it anyway. And even though he already knew he knew, you know, sometimes

[52:53]

You ask somebody something, and you know what they're going to say, but when they say it, it still amazes you. You know, they're going to say that, and you ask them when they say it, and it still surprises you. It's like, when they actually say it, it just... And so, it's even more amazing sometimes when they say just what you thought, and it's totally different than what you ever could have imagined, even though you said exactly the same word. I thought we'd get married. Yeah. Okay. Was there anything else in this case you wanted to bring up before we go to the next one? Okay. Oh, yes? Wes? You talked about arising with me, my dear. Why? But it seems like when we say this, I mean, when you look at it, it seems like warning you not to touch the column.

[54:06]

Warning you not to touch the column? I think it is. Not to think that I have it, but I understand the message. Because if the message did arise, it would arise by a long, long time. So at the beginning I was dancing. Well, in the surround of the story, there could be instruction about how to read the story. If you're in the light, there can be instruction about how to read a story, which is saying to be in the light. But there could be further instruction about how to read the story about that. It's true.

[55:10]

They're trying to tell you how to read the story. They're reminding you to study the story in the spirit of dying. Don't you think? Uh... I guess I associate intellectualizing with what you're associating with. Intellectualizing is reading knowledge, right? I guess I associate that with what you're associating with. The light is the realm of attachment. Yes, that's right. But the realm of attachment is where you go from the realm of non-attachment

[56:18]

So, he is coming to life that happens. Coming to life, but to arrive in the daylight is the only way to arrive in the light of the passion. And he's unchanging in the light of the passion. But it's true that arriving in daylight, being in the light of the passion, is the only way to arrive in the light of the passion. The realm of daylight is the realm of attachment, but you may actually understand that becoming non-attachment as you enter can move in the realm of attachment. Now you can take away the name, you can stop calling the realm of daylight the realm of attachment. You can not call it that if you want to, but that's what it is for almost everybody. It's the realm where you can attach. The realm of sex is not necessarily a place where everybody's having sex all the time, but it's the realm where you can have sex.

[57:30]

So I'm just saying, I don't want to force this, but the realm of attachment, realm of light, same. When you come into the realm of attachment, you come into the realm of light. That's what, it's in the realm of attachment that you teach non-attachment. in the realm of attachment that you practiced after the great death. Does that make sense to you? Are you talking about something totally different? I'm not understanding. Well, it felt like I was missing something. I was missing life. To arrive and come to life, if you need something to correspond to, you can't go to choose life. But if you say, be alive, you know, change things up.

[58:40]

If you say, choose, you know, a lot of stuff, I would do it. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Not bringing in rotation, but the realization that you experience is that you do things very much as you are arriving. So I guess that breaks for me that we're in the between realms of action. In some sense, we're going to be able to act forcefully in the daylight.

[59:49]

Intellectual life is a creature that allows us to go and survive. You've got to see Justin, you should not. You've got to see Justin, you should not do that. Um, but... I mean, there's a type of thing, you know, there's this, another tradition, you know, where the ladder gets you on the roof.

[60:57]

Once you're on the roof, you get really blind. You can't get on the ladder. It's not the right thing. You know, I'm not saying the ladder's necessary when you're on the roof. And I'm not saying the ladder's necessary when you're on the ground. I'm saying you need to use a word because They're the light. But they're not dead anymore. They just put you in the world, so... But you're not dead anymore. The King of Science said, any place that you get to, I'm not interested in.

[62:03]

I don't want to go any place I need to use a ladder for. I would say the same. Anything else on this case? Well, I would say I'm not interested in any fight, but I need a ladder to get there. I'm not interested in anything. I need a ladder. I need anything to get there. I want to deal with this. A ladder would be like trying to get somewhere that you're not? No, a ladder would be like I need something outside the situation. I like to be in a situation that's whole, deal with the whole situation, rather than being part of a situation and then be told that I can use a ladder to get to some other part of the situation or to another situation.

[63:19]

I don't mind ladders. Ladders are fine. But I'm just not interested in some place that you need a ladder to get to. See the difference? Yeah. I'm interested in places. But if you tell me I need a ladder to get to the place, then I lose interest. And I say, well, let's deal with the ladder in this place rather than the place we can get to by the ladder. For me, ladder is like, you know... Okay. Huh? Like a bridge. Like a bridge. I can see you can use the bridge to any place you need a bridge to get to. I'm not interested in it. However, I don't mind bridges. Bridges are fine. In Buddhism, it's basically a bridge. It just says not to get someplace. What about the top bunk?

[64:24]

What? What about the top bunk? Top bunk? In a bunk bed? The top bunk in a bunk bed. It's the best. I see. And they think the top one's the best? I thought the bottom one was the best. No, it's not? Maybe I thought the bottom one was the best because I had the top one. But I was always sort of envious of my little sister. I had this kind of neat little sport down there. Fortunately, you don't need a ladder to get to the top bunk. Anything else on this case?

[65:28]

Okay. This next case, it seems to me...

[65:37]

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