Yesterday I said that maybe I should start by getting right into a story about how Dung Shan was helped in his process of great awakening. I don't want to do that, but I don't want to get right into it. But this morning I didn't, just as a time to bow for Dung Shan, I looked down and saw part of my robe over my left arm was coming loose a little bit, and I reached down and pulled it, and I almost got caught and died into the bow. So I didn't make it down there for Dung Shan. And so I thought, well, maybe today I'll be able to do it. I think it might happen. But I really thought that although the chapter seven I want to talk about, there's one thing that I wanted to go over again, which I think is very important or useful in approaching all these Zen stories.

[01:13]

something in the sutra, but also something someone said to me recently, which people often say in Zen practice, you know, in the context of this practice period, and hearing Bodhidharma's instructions, which are... In other words, when you see what appears to be external objects, or stories about external life, Give it a rest. So then people say, sometimes get into the stories. I heard the instruction of give my stories a rest. But how about sometimes getting into the stories? And recently I was asked that and I said, well, there's psychotherapy where you get into the stories. But now I'd like to say that what Zen stories are about, in a lot of ways, they're stories about people who are caught in their stories and how the people who are caught in their stories are helped to become free of their stories.

[02:49]

So Zen stories are stories that Zen students are allowed to get into to some extent, because the Zen stories are about how to become free of stories. But if you go into your own stories, it's okay to go into your own stories if your intention of going into them is to give them a rest as you go into them. Sometimes it's hard to give something a rest unless you're real close to it. So, and again, psychotherapy, I think, to some extent, might be, psychotherapy means, literally means attending therapy. So psychotherapy might help us attend to our psychic events, attend to the stories that our psyche... in such a way that we can let go of the stories. Zen stories are about helping people become...

[03:59]

of their stories, the law of conventional designation, the spell which most of us have cast upon our life. So it is potentially helpful, beneficial to or traditional stories if we do so with the intention of not indulging in them, but with the intention of breaking the spell of thought construction. And as people go into the koans, go into the stories, together with their teacher, the teacher and the student cannot get stuck in the enchantment of words.

[05:07]

The words themselves aren't enchantments, but... Well, actually, enchantment cannot actually be the words you use to enchant. It's the effect of the spell. So the part of the sutra I wanted to... go over once again is in chapter seven after the Buddha talks about these different types of lack of own being that the lack of own being which the mind of the Buddha is undualistically aware of then Buddha says I don't teach these to people who don't confuse the nature of the characteristics of phenomena I don't teach it to the people who don't confuse the imaginary imputational with the other dependent. I don't teach it to such people. I don't teach it to people who don't confuse the imputational with the thoroughly established. I teach it to people who do get those things confused.

[06:13]

And then, I think this is a really nice part of the sutra, which is good to really remember. Now these people superimposing, superimposing the other depend... No, excuse me. I have abbreviations here. And also I have a flashlight. I haven't been able to read what I've been trying to read you for quite a few days now. But now I've got this nice red flashlight, superimposing the OB. You know that, right, Diana? OB. You need a hearing aid. I got a flashlight now, and you need a hearing aid. Superimposing the OB, own being, onto the eye.

[07:20]

Imputational character. superimposing the own being of the I-C onto the O-B of the O-D, C. Superimposing the own being of the imputational character onto the imputational character of the other dependent character. That's what most people do. And onto the thoroughly established character. People who hear about emptiness, then they... they superimpose the imputational character on the emptiness. So that's what those people do. So superimposing the own being of the imputational character on the other two characters are phenomena. This is funny. Was this Obi-Wan Kenobi? A new entertainment at Tassajara.

[08:25]

I mean, this is funny, right? For the sake of future generations, that's just an illuminated wand. Most people superimpose the own being of the imputational character onto the own being of the other dependent and the thoroughly established characters. So then sentient beings subsequently attribute conventions of the character of the own being of the imputational to the own being of the other dependent and the thoroughly established. So first of all, you superimpose the imputational. of the imputation more character. You impute the self onto independent existence, and you impute the self onto ultimate reality.

[09:33]

Then you impute the conventions that go with those images onto the . So first of all you impute the self, then you use the words and concepts along with them. That's the first step the sutra mentions. Then next, to the extent that they subsequently attribute these conventions, their minds become infused with these conventional designations. First of all, you have these images of things existing on their own, which you project onto things which don't exist on their own. then you impute the conventions associated with this imputation to those things, and then your mind becomes infused with these conventions. So now you have the image of something that doesn't exist, of self, which you impose on things, and then you impose the conventions on the things, along with the image of self,

[10:48]

And then your mind becomes full of these conventions mixed in with the images of things that don't exist. So the person is chock full of images that don't exist along with conceptions, conventional designations for all that. Okay, thereafter, because of being bound, now you're getting bound to conventional designation and due to predisposition towards the designation, Then you strongly adhere to the own being of the imputational character as the own being of the other dependent. So first of all you do it, and then you set up a strong inclination to continue. Make sense? They will not go beyond psychical existence.

[12:24]

So that part of the sutra, which is right up on page 105 in Powers, I think describes how Imagination gets coupled with language and conventional designation to put us into bondage. And then after that, then Buddha says, right after that, these people do not pass beyond. Better get this thing on again. That goes at... This is an enactment for the future generations. Let's see a tape of Star Wars again. Background music. So then Buddha says, paramartha, first I teach a lack of own being in terms of production.

[13:29]

So then he goes into teaching a lack of own being in terms of production. And... One can go over this point in the scripture a million times. Because, in fact, if you're meditating on the other dependent character, that's what you do. You go over the teaching of dependent core rising a million times, or more than a million times. Always thinking about dependent core rising as the basic quality of all existence. And then one more thing which I wasn't going to say but I am going to say is this production of... this lack of own being means a lack of own being in terms of self-production but that does not mean that the other dependent character does not come to exist by way of its own character.

[14:35]

It means it doesn't exist in the way imagined by the imputational character. It doesn't come to exist in the way of being produced as a self, but it does get produced by way of its own character, which is other dependence. I would actually like to have another class dealing with this point. It's very difficult to understand. And I don't think I can do it in lecture. We'll see. Because as you read yesterday, which was a different... The Buddha does teach that that which does not, that which is not established by way of its own character, does not, is not produced. That which is not established, that which does not exist by way of its own character.

[15:39]

The other dependent character is established by way of its own character. Conventional. Otherwise it wouldn't exist at all. So then there wouldn't be an other dependent character and then we'd have nihilism. And that's the part of this chapter which is dealt with on page 119 of the Tibetan translation where they talk about these people who come to deprecate the three characters by literally taking the teaching of a lack of own being to mean even other dependent things do not exist because nothing can arise by way of its own character, but something can arise by way of its own character. Other dependent characters can conventionally exist that way. Buddha does teach that, that some things exist by way of their own character, but some things don't exist by way of their own character, and the things that don't exist by way of their own character are called imputational characters.

[16:52]

So production lack of own being means that the other dependent character doesn't exist by way of its own character the way the imputational character is imagined to exist. because the imputational character does not exist by way of its own character. It doesn't exist at all. That's the way of existing by self-production, rather than existing by way of its own character. But it can't exist by way of its own character, because its character is that it imagines that it's not other-dependent. So we have a class on this, maybe. Okay, then, just moving on now, getting to the story, just one step away from the story. I can't remember where it is. Anybody know where it says, in Dogen, where he says something like that?

[17:59]

Words and are discriminating thought. You know, poor people, they don't realize that words and phrases are discriminating thought. In other words, conventional designation are discriminating dualistic thought. And conventional designation liberates discriminating consciousness. Where is that? Anybody know? It was in the tip of my mind. I can't find it. Anyway... That says the conventional designations are actually, they're not actually out there, they are our mind, which appears as conventional designations externally. And the mind, which is conventional designation, the consciousness, which is conventional designation, which we think is an external thing, that consciousness, which is conventional designations, that is dualistic consciousness.

[19:04]

And we use those conventional designations to liberate that dualistic consciousness. That's how you liberate it. And then we come to case 18 of the Book of Serenity. Case 18 of the Book of Serenity is a story about a monk who comes to Zhaozhou and says, does a dog have Buddha nature? And the answer, the first answer is, yes. And then it says later in the story, another monk came and asked Zhaozhou, does a dog have Buddha nature? And Zhaozhou said, mu. In other words, no. So. I don't want to... You don't do very well on these quizzes when I ask you. What do you think I would think?

[20:07]

But I'm going to ask, what do you think I think about the monk that came to see Zhao Zhou? Well, you would think that that monk had a mind that was kind of... That monk was like caught in conventional designation. That's what you would think of that monk. That's the answer to the question. Did you know I would have thought that's what I thought? No. So I should have asked that time. So that's what I think about that monk. That monk is caught in conventional designations like most people that the Buddha is teaching. Because most people's minds are infused with conventional designations and bound in conventional designations and proliferating conventional designations. It's a mess of conventional designations tightly packaged into a human existence. So then they go and say, well, okay, so everything's got Buddha nature, how about a dog?

[21:10]

This is what happens to mind, you know, it's got conventional designation. So then Zhaozhou says, yeah, it does. ...to help the monk get out of this net. And another monk, also caught in the net of conventional designation, says, does a dog have Buddha nature? And Jiao Jiao says, no. It's not that a dog does have Buddha nature or doesn't have Buddha nature. It's that Jiao Jiao is trying to help people because of the language of dog and Buddha nature and have and have not. Jojo's trying to be kind by saying, yep, nope. Somebody told me a story about Jojo taking a walk with one of his friends.

[22:19]

on the road, you know, and a rabbit came out and ran away. And his friends said, how come that rabbit ran away? Doesn't that rabbit know, like, you're just the sweetest guy in the world? Why come it didn't come up and jump in your arms? You're so compassionate. And Joshua said, he knows I'm good at killing things. But he didn't kill things. People who can't kill any things, if they don't kill any things, it doesn't really count that much. But people who can kill well and don't, that's really good. And humans can kill. We're the best killers on the planet. So when we don't kill, it's really, really good. So Zhao Zhou says, yep, nope, to help these people. And then in the introduction, which It's really the... It says... It doesn't really say this, but... It doesn't really say, even.

[23:32]

I'm putting even in. And what follows after even, it does say, even immeasurably... are tossed about in the stream of words... stream of words in our consciousness we get tossed about by this this person likes me this person hates me this person respects me this person is dissing me this person is lovely this person is ugly this person is mean this person is nice this person is kind this person is cruel The problem is the conventional designations that we make on the people that throw us all over the place. If you're not caught in conventional designations about cruel people, you can help them.

[24:35]

You can help them. If you're not caught in conventional designations about kind people... But if we're caught in conventional designations, we're just tossed all over the place. Even a great person gets flipped all over the place in the stream of conventional designations that are running through their consciousness that's what it says and then they give examples of these two nice monks who are like disoriented in the stream of words going to the Zen master who is in the stream of words with them but not so disoriented so he can say nope, yep, nope, yep so then it says is there anyone who can assign And then if you want to see that, turn to page 111 in Powers Translation and find out how to escape. And then it tells you how to escape.

[25:37]

It tells you how the escape happens. Page 111? Yeah, page 111. Hearing these doctrines, they do not strongly adhere to the own being of the other dependent as being the character of the own being of the imputational. That's without the flashlight. With the flashlight, it's just the same. When they attend to this teaching, then the essential, no essence of arising, That's great. So then it goes. You get to the place right here on page 111 and page 40 and also on page 31. You get to the place where you have a wisdom that's not permeated by language because of an insight that's not formed by language because of a wisdom freed from language.

[26:41]

You're not bound by conventional designations, and because of the understanding is free of predisposition towards convention. In this lifetime, they will have the ability to understand ODC. You will be able to understand here. And here's a huge difference in the translations. The Chinese says, as a result of your mind becoming free of conventional designations, as a result of becoming free of the lull of words, you will be able to extinguish dependency, destroy the pattern that arises dependent on other things. You'll be able to destroy the other dependent character. Sounds different from understanding it, doesn't it? But actually, it's related because when you understand the other you can destroy it if you want to you can like turn off existence and not be reborn or turn it off and be reborn in other words you are a bodhisattva who dies

[28:04]

It doesn't come back, if you want to, if you're done. Or it dies and comes back. Because you understand the pentacle arising. You understand the pentacle arising. That can happen when you're not under the lull of words. So... This is how it happens. And the other one shows how it unfolds and becomes liberated. All the way to being able to understand the pentacle arising so that actually you can stop it if you're in the mood. You can become free as a person who simply does not strongly adhere to the other dependent as being the imputational. Simple change of belief, but very difficult to attain as you... So now, here seems to be

[29:08]

Now we have the story of Dungsan, the great master Dungsan, the wonderful... the wonderful person Dungsan, the great... the ancestor of our lineage. So the first part of his record is about a bodhisattva, a future Buddha, a future Zen master who is caught the lull of words he's a wonderful little boy he's a wonderful young man but he's caught in the lull of words just like the rest of sentient beings and in particular things start getting in his story when he starts to concentrate on a story about a monk was caught by a story So we can... Dung Shan is caught by a story about a monk who's caught by a story, how he becomes uncaught by the story.

[30:26]

So at the beginning of studying koans we say, attention everyone. So he trained with a Zen teacher, from the time he was pretty young until he was 21, I think. Yeah. And when he was 21, he took the complete precepts, and then he sort of headed out, which at that time, the golden age of Zen, it was traditional for the Zen monks to... go off and visit the famous teachers. And so he visited the famous teachers. So first he visited Nan Chuan, one of Matsu's great disciples. And basically, Nan Chuan was going to do a memorial service.

[31:35]

You know how we do a memorial service? We do a service the day that the teacher dies, and then we do a memorial service on the day of the teacher dying. So this was like they were preparing for the evening ceremony before the day of the actual memorial ceremony. And as they were about to do the ceremony, Nanchuan says to the monks that were there, I wonder if Master Ma will come or not. And he was a little bit of a... But anyway, he was... kind of invited the monks to comment on that, and none of them came forward but this young man who I guess was 21 or a little bit older steps forward and says he will come if he has a companion.

[32:38]

This guy is going to, this guy is suitable for, you know, being cut and polished. and the young monk says, don't crush what is good into something that is not good. His name, it's a play on his name, but his name means good servant. In other words, don't crush my potential by complimenting me. But anyway, word got out, he was actually known as somebody who was recognized to some extent by Nantron. But Nantron did not say, this guy has become free of the net of conventional designations. He's worthy of being cut.

[33:42]

It's good to cut this guy. Chop away on this guy. This is a good one. This one, you'd probably be able to cut him up in little pieces and throw out the conventional designations pretty soon. So then he goes to visit another great Zen master named Guishan. And when he meets Guishan, he said that he had recently heard a story about the national teacher Jung. National teacher Jung is one of the disciples of the sixth ancestor. National teacher Jung died approximately thirty-two years, four months and three days and ten minutes before this happened. So he was already passed away, but the stories about him teaching were still circulating in the Zen world. Dungsan heard this teaching, was thinking about this story, about a monk who was caught in his story, who was talking to the national teacher.

[34:49]

And so he was also caught in his story of this story. He was stuck in the story himself. And there's a story of a national teacher talking to this monk about, it's called the story of non-sentient beings expounding the Dharma. That's sort of the name of the story. And Guishan says, oh, Dushan says, I have not yet comprehended the subtleties of this teaching. But what I'm suggesting, that to comprehend the subtleties of the national teacher's teaching is to not get caught up in the national teacher's teachings. and the National Teacher's teachings are recorded at the way he tried to help the monk, not caught by the monk's story of what was going on.

[35:55]

So Guishan says, young teacher, remember the details that you've heard? And Dongshan says, yes, I can. So here's the story of the National Teacher. The monk asked the National Teacher, What sort of a thing is the mind of an ancient Buddha? And the national teacher says, wall tile rubble, or wall tile rubble. So probably he was sitting in his temple. And temples usually have walls around them. And they put little roofs on the walls with tiles.

[36:59]

Wreck the wall. And sometimes the tiles fall off onto the ground and break. So he's probably looking out there and seeing some broken tile by the wall and said, that's the mind of Buddha. And you know what that means, of course. Right? It means that when that tile is sitting there but not an object, when it's not like... The mind of the Buddha is not looking at the tile. The mind of the Buddha is that the tile is not an object. That's the mind of Buddha. So he says... this non-subject-object split mind. He says it, actually being very straightforward. He's teaching to the monk.

[38:01]

And the monk says, but the monk, he's totally caught. So he says, he thinks that that thing out there, the thing out there which doesn't exist, the out there-ness, he thinks that's what the teacher's talking about, so he says, Isn't that non-living? And the answer, of course, is yes. Okay. Well, the mind of Buddha can expound Dharma, right? Yes. Does this non-living thing expound the Dharma? And the teacher says, Yes, it does, ceaselessly, incandescently, uninterruptedly. He's just being straight, actually, answering the questions, but trying to help the monk break loose of this track he's on, but he's not coming loose.

[39:13]

So then the monk says, why can't I hear it? If these things are explained to me, why can't I hear it? The national teacher says, you yourself haven't heard it, but this doesn't hinder the one who can hear it. And the monk says, what? acquires such hearing, or what sort of a person can hear? And the teacher says, the sages have acquired such hearing. And the monk says, can you hear it, master? And the teacher says, no. And the monk says, if you haven't heard it, how do you know that non-sentient beings expound the Dharma? And the teacher says, fortunately, I haven't heard it.

[40:37]

You haven't heard it, so how do you know that they found it? Caught? Does he then play with that, go into that, and sort of like indulge that, explaining how? how this Buddha mind knows that sentient beings expound Dharma, even though he hasn't heard it? He hasn't heard them expounding it, but he can tell you that they do? Does he get into the conventional designations about how to explain that? No, he just says he hasn't heard it. And he hasn't. I'm not lying. He hasn't heard it, because he's not a sage, And he can tell you that they're expounding it. No problem. No problem where? No problem where? In Buddha's mind there's no problem about that. In the mind which isn't infused with conventional designations, you don't have to get all tangled up in something to know about it.

[41:54]

You can, matter of fact, know everything having it an object which you grasp. But it's fortunate that he's that way. It's fortunate that I haven't, because if I had, I'd be the same as the sages, and therefore you would not be able to hear the Dharma I teach. And then the monk says, in that case, I would have no part in it, would have no access to it. Because ordinary people need to use conventional designations to get at stuff, of course. But what they get at with conventional designations is just more conventional designations. He's using conventional designations not to help people get at what he's saying by conventional designations. He's using conventional designations to help people become free of trying to use conventional designations to enter Buddha's mind. it's by giving up strongly adhering to conventional designations as the other depends into the teaching of suchness this national teacher getting a high rating and kindness or what kind and skillful so lovely amongst

[43:19]

He doesn't understand yet, but he is being treated kindly. He is being massaged. He's getting ready to relax and start playing with not so strongly adhering to conventional designations about tiles expounding Dharma and how people know things. So he says, the way he sees is that people wouldn't have access to this. People wouldn't have access to this. Ordinary people wouldn't have access to this. In other words, people whose minds are infused with designations would have no access to this mind. Is that right? Is the monk right? Is he right? He is right. That's right. However, even though that's right, the teacher is teaching ordinary people who have no access to the Buddha mind.

[44:35]

Ordinary people are holding to the imputational character and superimposing the conventions upon the other dependent. They have no access to the Buddha mind. They have to give that up. So this teacher who's teaching something which ordinary people have no access to is giving this teaching which ordinary people do not have access to in conventional language so that they can see that there's no access to it. He's doing it. He's giving a teaching about the monk that ordinary people don't have access to, and he's giving it to ordinary people who don't have access to it, because he's trying to teach them where to let go, which is the same place, the place to enter. So the monk says, no access.

[45:39]

conventional designators and the buddha says you are the people i'm teaching this way i'm teaching this way to you i wouldn't teach the sages this way i do not teach the lack of production own being of the other dependent to people who not have conventional designations that aren't confused i teach it to people who are and i teach it in a way that there's no access to unless you stop adhering Oh, my light went off. Put it back on. I teach ordinary people, not sages. And then the monk says, what happens after ordinary people hear you, hear you? Not hear the, the, not hear the, whatchamacallit, He's not trying to get ordinary people to hear the watchamajiggers.

[46:45]

He's not trying to get ordinary people to hear the insentient beings expound the Dharma. He's not trying to do that. He's not trying to do that. He's trying to get them to hear him. Because if you hear, although it's true that insentient beings do expound the Dharma, hearing that is just being a sage. What's important is to hear the Zen teacher. who's not a sage and who doesn't hear that stuff. Hearing that stuff meant... What's the big deal is to enter the Buddha's mind. Wherein, the Buddha's mind is nothing other than tile rubble. and the buddha's mind can expound dharma and so can tile rubble that's what it's like there in that realm of mutual resistance the buddha is expounding dharma and bouncing off the tile rubble tile rubble is expounding dharma bouncing off the buddha did you hear about that that's what it's like in buddha's mind it's like uninterrupted everybody's teaching everybody all the time land so the monk doesn't say

[48:10]

What's it like when you do hear? In sentient beings that's bound to the diamond, the monk doesn't say that. And if he did, what would I say? I'd say they'd be sages. That's what they'd be. If you hear them, you'd be a sage. Great, that's terrific. You get to be in the evening echo. Being a sage, it's just that the Zen masters are trying to get you to be a Buddha. So the monk doesn't say, what happens after ordinary people hear the insentient beings expounding the Dharma? He says, what happens if... And then he says, they won't be ordinary people anymore. And there's only one alternative.

[49:12]

It's not that bad. Do you? You don't understand the one alternative to sentient beings? You don't? Tell her, Diana, loud. Tell her loud, Diana. That wasn't loud, Diana. Loud. Loud, Diane. Loud, Diane. You've got to get used to saying things loud. Just give it one big loud. Okay, ready? One, two, three. Buddha. Good. You hear it? You hear it? There's not like Buddha sentient beings and then another thing. That's all there is. Didn't you know that? You didn't before this. You learned something during this practice period. There's sentient beings and there are Buddhas. That's it.

[50:14]

There's enlightened beings and unenlightened beings. There's not another category. Sages are sentient beings. They are sentient beings. They're not enlightened. Right? Hmm? Wrong? Wrong? Well, that's good. The monk said, according to what sutra does it say that non-sentient beings expound the Dharma? And there's quite a bit of variation on the answer to this. One, this translation, so the monk says, what sutra is this in? He still doesn't get it. Poor guy, he's not going to get it. Okay, what sutra is this in? I'm going to go read that one. I'm going to get this. This is a good monk, but he is really caught in words.

[51:19]

He's not in the words. So he says, what sutras is it? And then the teacher says, clearly you shouldn't suggest that what I'm saying is not part of the sutras. Or another translation would be, well, I wouldn't be a very good Buddhist teacher if I was saying stuff that wasn't in the sutras. I mean, I wouldn't be a good Buddhist teacher if I was saying stuff that was not in the sutras, would I now? Another translation is, of course it's not in the sutras. Obviously it's not in the sutras. Nor is it something the noble ones have said. Okay? So obviously it's not in the sutras. Or, gee, I wouldn't be very good if I was saying stuff that wasn't in the sutras. I think that the way of, you know, it wouldn't be good if I wasn't, like, doing something that's part of the sutras.

[52:26]

It's a little bit more, like, what do you call it, ironic or something like that. Probably more that's in the Zen style, like, oh, sorry. But then, in all cases, quite a different response to the question. In all cases, he says, but anyway, it does say in Avatamsaka Sutra that the earth expounds Dharma, that all living beings expound the Dharma. Throughout the three times, everything expounds the Dharma. All living beings and rocks are not enlightened. And there will be a person who will appear several centuries from now who will state this and will be refuted. So that's the story. Apparently, it did sort of break out of the bag of the lull of words. But people liked the story, so they were saying it all over China, all over the Zen world anyway.

[53:29]

Deng Xiaon heard it, and then he says, he completed his story, and then he said to Guizhou, darn it, I forgot my whisk. It's not your fault. It's not your fault, Diane. Well, I got this, though. Anyway, so Guishan said, after he finished, after Gunchan finished the story, Guishan says, we have that teaching here, too. However, one seldom encounters someone who is capable of understanding it. Now, when you have a plaque outside the place that says, you know, this place is licensed to, you missed that lecture, but this place is licensed as a Zen practice place for attaining enlightenment,

[54:38]

But that doesn't necessarily mean that they have that teaching here. They have another sort of fancier sign for places that have this teaching of the national teacher. So we're negotiating for that license. So I'm not saying we have that teaching here. You remember my whisk. So Dung Shan says, I still don't understand clearly. Master, would you please comment? So Dungsan still confused with conventional designations. He's a great guy, but he's just a poor little sentient being all tied up and afflicted. Guishan then raised his fly whisk. Do you understand, Lien?

[55:47]

That's very close. Very close. Do you understand? Little Dung Shan. No, I don't. Please. Please explain, Master. The great master says, Deng Guishan says, It can never be explained to you by means of the mouth of one born of mother. And then Deng Guishan says, Does the master have any contemporaries who might clarify this matter for me? We know there's some ancestors, right? But they didn't help. Anybody that could help me? And Guishan says, yeah, from here, go to Yuxian in Li Ling, where there are linked caves.

[57:01]

Living in those caves is a person of the way named Yunyan, Cloudy Cliff. If you are able to push aside the grass... and gaze into the wind then you will be able to find him worthy of your respect so here we have another example of a great Zen master teaching a future great Zen master but the conditions aren't ready so he sends them to somebody else who thinks maybe that maybe those conditions will work so far We are looking at a story of a great teacher who was caught in conventional designations. All the while we're looking at it, are we caught by conventional designations? We're getting into the story, we're getting into the conventions, but are we watching our own conventional designations?

[58:04]

How are they doing? Seeing the humor in it is a sign of loosening. So Lien's getting ready. Any minute now. You're going to be ready. And then Dung Shan says, well, what kind of guy is he? And Guishan said, met and Guishan said, once he said to this monk, once he said to this old monk, what should I do if I wish to follow you, teacher? And this, and I replied, you must immediately cut off all and then Yuen Yen said,

[59:06]

Then will I come up to the master's expectations? And this old monk said, absolutely no answer as long as I am here. This is another phrase which is translated many ways. Another translation is, just don't tell anybody where I am. And then another translation is, first of all, you can't say that I'm at this spot. This is Guishan recounting what kind of a guy Yun Yan is. So then Dengshan said goodbye to Guishan.

[60:14]

Bye-bye, Guishan. Great master, thanks a lot. and proceeded directly to Yuen Yen's. And he told Yuen Yen about the previous encounter where he told the story. And Guishan said, I have that teaching. and Dongshan's saying, well, what about it? Raising the whisk. I don't get it. Please tell me more. Can't. See you later. Tells all that. And then, and then he asked Lin Yan, what sort of a person can hear the Dharma expounded by sentient beings. And Yuen Yuen said, non-sentient beings are able to hear it.

[61:24]

And Dung Shan says, can I hear it, Master? Oh, sorry, can you hear it, Master? Here, the Dharma expounded by non-sentient beings. Non-sentient beings are able to hear it. Sages are non-sentient beings? I guess so, right? National teacher said sages can hear it, so I guess sages are non-sentient beings. Delia doesn't like that answer. Or maybe she does. It's just making a funny face. ...beings can hear the Dharma expounded by non-sentient beings. Yuen Yen says non-sentient beings are able to hear it.

[62:27]

Reb says, does that mean their sages are non-sentient beings? Does it, Joan? You don't know? Is this your confusion training? You better be. You're welcome. Took a while for you to admit that. Oh! Was that kind? One to ten, how kind? Joan? I think it was very kind, but not just for me. So it's above ten, probably. Yeah, most other people, they really got it this day. We just set this up. We'll talk beforehand. We'll just see what you're going to do. They fell for it, didn't they? Was that kind? Was that kind? Was it kind, Wendy?

[63:32]

Ask Wendy. She'll explain to you. to grab her, punch her when she grabs her. In a kind way. Okay, so what kind of, who hear it? Non-sentient beings hear it. Can you hear it, Master? Yunyan replied, if I could hear it, I said, Yunyan replied, If I could hear it, then you would not be able to hear the Dharma I teach. You all are teaching Dharma, but if you could hear sentient beings expound it, people wouldn't be able to hear your Dharma. Huh?

[64:36]

I'm changing his life. If I could hear it, then you would not be able to hear the Dharma I teach. Didn't I say that? Oh, if I could hear the non-sentient beings... There's no sentient beings teaching here. If I could hear it, In other words, the Dharma taught by insentient beings, if I could hear it, then you wouldn't be able to hear the Dharma I teach. Okay? And then Dungsan says, why can't I hear it? And Yunyan raised his fly whisk. Fly whisk. And he said... can you hear it?

[65:39]

And Dungsan said, no, I can't. And then Yuen Yuen said, you can't even hear it when I expound the Dharma. How would you be able to hear it when non-sentient beings expound the Dharma? Dungsan asked, in which sutras is taught that non-sentient beings expound the Dharma. And Yuen Yuen says, haven't you heard, haven't you heard in the Amitabha Sutra where it says, water birds, tree groves, or waters, birds, trees and forests, Without exception, recite the Dharma. Reflecting on this, this translation says, reflecting on this, Dungsan composed a verse.

[66:51]

Another translation says, reflecting on this, the master had great insight. Dungsan had great insight. And Dung Shan, he had kind of an education before, even when he was a little boy, he had an education before he went to become a monk. So he actually, he's quite literate and can pop up poems without much warning. So he has this insight and he says, how amazing. Hard to comprehend that non-sentient beings expound the Dharma. It simply cannot be heard with the ear. But when the sound is heard with the eye, it is understood.

[67:55]

Now the kitchen is left, which is kind of sad for me. But the tenzo is still here. And the Mako's still here. And any other ones here? And the... That's pretty good. So I'm going to finish the story. So Yun Yan and Deng Shan hang out together. What has happened here in terms of you know classical Indian Buddhist teaching is that this guy who came in the lull of words where he was his mind was superimposing the imputational upon the other dependent which obscures the object of purification the interaction with the teacher around this story somehow boom boom boom a little bit stopped

[69:10]

grasping the fantasy and the conventional designations associated with what's happening, and he's got to see something with his ear, or hear something with his eye. The interaction with the teacher caused a consciousness to arise which indirectly action, through this conversation, through this linguistic activity, which is happening still in the conventional world, still in the realm of using words to release him, a released consciousness saw and he awoke. But I propose to you this story, like in other ones, although this is a great insight, this is still inferential or dualistic. His practice is just really getting started now.

[70:14]

And then he spends years with Dungsan, with Junyuan, continually reviewing and meditating on the thoroughly established, which he now has a vision of. Now he's doing what the sutra says. By repeatedly, thoroughly, completely contemplating the suchness, he gets more and more familiar with it, and more and more familiar with it, more and more familiar with it. of not grasping the other dependent as being the conceptions which are floating around. More and more, more and more, more and more intimate. Less and less dualistic. Seeing the fairly established character, but at a distance there's still some He's even seen how the thoroughly established character is the fact that things are not out there, but there's still some distance in that vision, in that understanding. Finally it's time, he feels that it's time for him to go, to leave the womb of the Buddha.

[71:28]

And he goes to his teacher and he says he's gonna go. And this final meeting, also there's different translations of it. It's a very wonderful, I don't, take it back. Here's the final meeting, various translations. So Dungsan, Dungsan said, he was preparing to leave. And Yun Yan said, where are you going? And Deng Shan said, although I'm leaving the master, I don't know where I will end up. Yun Yan said, going to Hunan, are you? And Deng Shan said, no, I'm not. He said, are you returning home?

[72:30]

Deng Shan said, no. Yun Yan said, Sooner or later, you'll return," Dengshan said. When the master has a fixed abode, you'll return. Yuen Yuen said, If you leave, it will be difficult for us to see each other again. Dengshan said, It will be difficult not to see one another. And just as Dung Shan was going to leave, he said to Yun Yan, in the future, if someone happens to ask me whether I can describe the master's truth, what should I answer them? And Yun Yan had a long pause. And Andy's translation is, he had a long pause, and just this is it.

[73:42]

But the other translation, which I like better, is just this person is it. in the record, that's in the Taisho, and it says, just this is it. But I also read in another translation that just this is it is an abbreviation for just this person is it, which appears in some other records. This expression, just this person is it, is a formal statement that a person makes in court when you're charged with a crime. And if you want to admit that you're guilty, you say, just this person is it. So I feel that that's the expression that Yuen Yuen was making.

[74:48]

In other words, just this person is guilty. Just this person. That's what you should tell my teaching is. Again, I suggest to you, this person, this Dungsan, has been meditating on suchness all along. He's still doing it. And the teacher says this, there's still some subtle quality in his mind with regard to the ultimate truth. His mind has not been completely purified in the process of meditating on suchness. His teacher is still trying to help him. and says, okay, this person is it, is the final instruction. And Yuen Yuen, and then he said to Yuen Yuen, then Yuen Yuen said, worthy Yang.

[76:01]

His name is Yang. Liangjia. Worthy Liang. Now that you have taken up this great affair, you must consider it carefully. I have given you the final instruction for purification. The final point to let go. Please take care of this. Dung Shan continued to experience doubt. And he walked. And as I told you before, on our trip to China, we went to the place where this river is. So he walked from Yuen Yuen to this river. And we asked this Chinese scholar who was with us, how far is it from Yuen Yuen's place to this river? 50 miles. So I think I told you before, I used to think he left the temple, he walked down the hill, there was a river, he crossed over the river.

[77:10]

So like an hour and a half after the instruction, he crossed the river. But it wasn't an hour and a half. I was walking later, he comes to this river. And as he's crossing the river, he saw his reflection in the water. he saw his reflection in the water and he had this time great his was that kind or not is that reflection kind was the water kind said you know Dung Shan, here comes a poem. Bump this guy, poem comes up. So he says, expressing his joy of his great realization, he says, avoid seeking outside, for that's far from the self.

[78:25]

Now I travel alone, but everywhere I meet And here you can say him, her, or it. But really we're talking about everywhere I meet just this person. That's why I think it's better him or her rather than it. But anyway, everywhere I meet this person. Now it's exactly me. Now he or she is exactly me. Now I am not him. It must be thus understood to merge with suchness, to merge with suchness. He merged with suchness finally. So there is the story of the kindness of his teachers, Guishan, his teacher, the national teacher, his teacher, Nanchuan, his teacher, the river,

[79:34]

his teacher, his reflection, all these things teaching him, teaching him, teaching him, helping him let go of his story. So in the Soto Zen, Story of Great Enlightenment course, But still, where is the kindness? Where is the pivot where the interaction helps us let go? That's the of not adhering to the other dependent character as being the fantasy of self. So there's many ways that we can interact together to help free ourselves from our stories.

[80:50]

This is just one. And again, as I read this story, as I read this story, as I think of this story, my effort is to not strongly adhere to my vision of the story as being the story. When you hear the story, can you let rest how the story appears to you? Because how it appears to you is not the story. It's a fantasy of the story. But we must use the fantasy and the conventional designations which go with the fantasy in order to access the story so we can test, to see.

[81:57]

to give the story a rest, to give the queen a rest and see suchness. Perhaps we will go on like this for a long time, either being caught by conventional designations or practicing being free of them, or both.

[83:10]

But not neither. I think neither. I think we're going to be caught, or free, or both. Actually, I like both best. But if I have to choose, I'll choose being caught, because that's what free people choose. And the people who aren't free choose freedom. Because choosing freedom is being caught. But being willing to be caught, totally caught, is choosing freedom. So you've got the caught part. What about the totally part? Totally caught. Then you're free.

[84:15]

And because we're caught, actually, we can't. We're fighting it. We're getting flipped all over the place because we're caught. But when you can totally be flipped, you're free. When you can be a total love slave to conventional designations, you're free. total devotion and slavery to unstable, unreliable things, you're free. But it is required strongly adhering to them at the imputational in order to totally be caught. I know you already know this, but I thought I might say this is a sample of the continuing process in California.

[85:24]

Which just happens to be the center of the universe. This is the place for people most deluded. We're the leaders in delusion. Everybody else is trying to catch up with the latest, the cutting edge, gripping and grasping of conventional reality. Let go of the old versions of it that they're still holding on to. Whereas we're, we've got the freshest delusion fear. Organic. No pesticides. We don't, we don't, we don't, we don't care about the pests. We are the pests. Anyway, I probably should stop, right?

[86:33]

May our attention equally penetrate

[86:43]

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