I could do a little bit of review, or maybe quite a bit of review. So from the beginning I proposed to you that one way to get at the end of these fundamental defilements called outflows which give rise to and bind us to cyclic suffering is to not get involved in the view and concern about gain and loss or the view of affirmation and denial and the concern about the Of course, people are often talking to me about how concerned they are about affirmation, getting approval from people.

[01:13]

It's very basic to human beings to be concerned about getting affirmation or approval or giving approval or affirmation. So we have that concern, but actually to end these outflows, we sort of have to not get too involved in that concern. We see things that way. Somehow we have to find a way not to get involved in it. As some of you said in this class and also, as I said, people say, as I bring things up around the world, people say this seems very basic. And so last week I kind of shifted gears and spoke about this way of being not involved or not caught up in the view and concern about gain and loss and affirmation and denial.

[02:19]

or affirmation and disapproval, to not think of that in terms of something that you're going to do by your own power. So the view that your activity is individual, isolated and independent of your environment your living and non-living environment, the view that your activity is individual and isolated is a view that's very closely related to the view of gain and loss. So it's kind of contradictory to approach the end of concern for gain and loss as an individual effort. The way of living or seeing your life or seeing your activity in terms of your own personal power is the normal way that living beings see their life.

[03:36]

And it's what you might call the activity of a sentient being. Humans, dogs, cats, gophers, salamanders and cockroaches have this approach and so do, I But actually, the Buddhas are those who are teaching us to end these outflows, and it's actually the practice of the Buddha that ends the outflow, not the practice of individual person. Once again, practicing as an individual person sort of implicates you into the view of gain and loss. The practice of a Buddha is the Buddha doesn't practice by himself in an isolated way. Living beings think of their life and practice that way, but Buddhas do not think that way and do not practice that way. They practice together with everybody.

[04:39]

People who practice together with everybody are the Buddhas. That's a Buddha practice. And the practicing together with everybody ends the outflows. So once again, the view and concern about gain of affirmation and denial is the fundamental defilement that gives rise or that's the condition for the rising and bondage to stress and affliction. And this goes with This way of being concerned for gain and loss goes with ignoring, avoiding, minimizing our natural intimacy with and vulnerability to each other.

[05:49]

this view of this concern, this view and concern for gain and loss goes with or ignoring or avoiding our intimacy, our natural intimacy and vulnerability to all sentient beings. i can do it by myself that goes with gain and loss that goes with view of gain and loss i can do it by myself goes with a view of gain and loss and concern for gain and loss and that ignores vulnerability i can do it by myself ignores or minimizes my vulnerability to you and it also ignores or minimizes your vulnerability to me because I can do it by myself. I don't have to talk to you about it before I do it.

[06:54]

Who cares whether it has an effect on you? I'm going to do it. That's the gain and loss way. I'm going to do it. I can do it. I don't care too much about anybody else because I'm going to end all of those. Now, the other way And so this way of practice I just spoke about is avoiding or ignoring or minimizing or not appreciating very much the practice of a Buddha. Buddha doesn't say, I'm going to do it by myself. I'm going to do the practice of the Buddha way. I'm going to do it. Buddha doesn't talk like that. sentient beings talk like that. Unenlightened people say, I'm going to practice Buddhism. Buddha says, we're going to practice Buddhism.

[07:59]

We're going to practice together. I need your help and you need mine. I'm vulnerable to you, you're vulnerable to me. Everything's really complicated. I can barely do anything because I have to include so many people. But a Buddha really challenging to, like, practice together with everybody. But that's the practice of Buddha. The practice of ancient beings is, I can't, I don't want to deal with the challenge of, I'm just going to do it myself, okay? All right? Didn't I? Opening to and being able to tolerate our intimacy and vulnerability possible to end alcohol and even that opening to our intimacy and our vulnerability is not something i do by myself i need help but my natural intimacy is what supports me to open to the intimacy it's not time it's just a question of being tolerant of it

[09:24]

which is also being tolerant of my vulnerability to other people and being tolerant of other people's vulnerability to me, which is sometimes quite difficult to tolerate how sensitive other people are and how much of an impact you have on everybody and how much of an impact they have on you. to tolerate that, to open to that, to face that, to not run away from that. That makes possible the end of outflow. It doesn't mean that then you end the outflow. It's just that in the openness to that vulnerability and the tolerance of that intimacy, the outflows don't operate because in that realm you're not so concerned with gain and loss. Loss is where you not vulnerable, or you don't want to be vulnerable, then kind of like get your gains and avoid your losses and that's that.

[10:29]

You're not vulnerable to losing your gains or getting your losses that you don't want. This willingness, this tolerance, this openness ends the involvement with these views and concerns of gain and loss. practice and the activity together with and in the company of all sentient beings and all Buddhas is the practice of N's outflows. Activity which is intimate with and vulnerable to all sentient beings. and all buddhas the activity which is vulnerable to all the buddhas and intimate with all buddhas and intimate with and vulnerable to all beings that's the activity of the buddha which is the end of outflows of course nobody can arrange this by himself or herself you can't arrange it in fact it's already that's actually the way you already are with everybody

[11:54]

It's kind of like opening to the vulnerability and make it. Open to it. So I talked about some of this stuff last time. And this time, I'll give some examples a little later. But the main thing I wanted to, which I, the next step would be what? Remember why I said the next step would be? What? Formality? Formality what? What about formality? It's necessary for... Yeah, it's necessary. We need formality in order to be able to tolerate our vulnerability, our mutual vulnerability. We need formality in order to open to and be able to tolerate our mutual vulnerability in order to create our intimacy we need formality we need formal structures we need formal contracts formal commitments formal ceremonies ceremonial contracts agreements ritual contracts ritual agreement ritual understandings

[13:26]

I propose that we need this and poor little Buddhas need it too. Buddhas need rituals and we need formal rituals by which the Buddhas and us can relate and we need formal rituals and ceremonies and agreements and contracts in order to relate to each other in such a way that we can tolerate and open to our vulnerability with each other and enter into the practice of everybody together which ends the outflow. And I think I've told you this before, but if I haven't, say that one of the first surprising things that Suzuki Roshi said that I heard was he said, With acquaintances, you can be informal.

[14:33]

But for people you're intimate with, you need formality. And I kind of thought it would be the other way around. You know, like, people you live with, you don't have to be formal with them, right? But the people you live with, if you're not formal with them, I would say today that you're not intimate with them. You live in the same house. You actually are intimate, but you don't realize it because you're not formal. Because you think you're not intimate with them because they live in the same house or the same bed or the same whatever, bathtub. So, you know, whatever, man. Well, yeah. We're missing something there. we're actually not recognizing that people we live close to are vulnerable to us and we're vulnerable anyway that's what he said and that's what i'm saying to you that if you want to be if you want to realize intimacy and vulnerability and some people may i don't know if i want intimacy and i certainly don't but if we don't recognize if we don't open to the vulnerability and the intimacy

[15:45]

Then we're practicing by ourselves, and that's the practice of a sentient being who is creating outflows. But Buddhas, if you want to be a Buddha, that means you want to be intimate with all beings. Because the practice of a Buddha is to be intimate, practice intimacy in the company of, on the same job site as everybody. You don't want to be a Buddha? You don't have to do much. Just continue being normal human. Think in terms of independent operation in your your ascension being, you're avoiding being Buddha, avoiding the practice of Buddha, you're minimizing and ignoring the practice of Buddha. So switching or turning from the activity of ascension being with outflows to the practice activity of the Buddhas with requires and is accomplished by establishment of formality with all sentient beings and all Buddhas.

[16:50]

Kind of a big job, huh? Actually, this formality with all the Buddhas in some ways is easier than the formality with all human beings. But you can imagine it would take quite a bit of effort to establish formality with one human being. How about all? Well, It's a big job, but that's the job of the Buddha, is to establish formal relations with the Buddha in order to be able to tolerate and have them tolerate their intimacy and vulnerability with you. So that's quite a bit. And so maybe you have some comments or questions at this point before we go on to the full examples. Yes? But with acquaintances, you're not trying to be intimate. You're not trying to realize your intimacy. If you try... uh... without some formality you oftentimes get in usually you get in some got some big feedback right away like if you you know i don't know what try to take somebody's glasses you know and say can i have those just take the glasses without asking or put your finger in their ear or nose without asking you know of course they would think that was very strange but you wouldn't think you could do that with an acquaintance right unless you were drunk so

[18:37]

Because you, generally speaking, if you're sober, you don't think you can take something from them without them saying, here. Right? You'd know it was stealing if you did it anyway. So some people do steal from acquaintances or people that are strangers, right? But, you know, it's not as much of a problem, right? But actually, it's not as much of a problem as stealing from somebody that you've realized some intimacy with. It isn't as harmful in a way. so but generally speaking we don't do that now people who steal from strangers all but if you're not stealing and you're trying to be a good whatever practitioner of the Buddha way you might think that you don't have to be formal with the other person but with the stranger you realize not that you have to be formal but just that you don't take liberties Don't try to get close to them all of a sudden.

[19:42]

You realize that you have to, there would be a lot of work to get intimate. You realize you're not intimate. And what they say to you and what you say to them, you're not open to much vulnerability there. And they're not much vulnerability to you. But in a relationship where you're actually like living together closely and you see it that way, and you start to feel the vulnerability and then you realize you need well you may not realize it that's the problem but at that point you see if someone mentions it to you that you need formality in order to tolerate the vulnerability you're starting to open to or that you're open to the vulnerability in one area and And then you realize, well, I need some support here. I need contracts in order to be able to tolerate this.

[20:43]

Or even if you felt intimate with the Buddha somehow, a little hit of intimacy with the Buddha, you realize, I need some kind of form to relate to this. I can't stand in this intimacy with this great beneficence, with this great compassion, great wisdom, without standing here without any form. I need some form. Give me some form to deal with this. Give me a yogic posture. so I can stand the energy of this intimate relationship with this great beneficent activity. You might realize that. And then with someone who you don't feel intimate with in some areas, if you want to expand the intimacy, then you realize maybe that you need a malady in order to dare do that. Does that make some sense? For a time when I was having a very difficult time in a relationship, it was saying to the person, I think we should treat each other like strangers.

[21:50]

Yeah, good. So in fact, you get intimate. It makes, in some sense, treating each other as strangers might be like to get more formal. So make appointments with somebody who you sleep in the same bed with. Make appointments. They're there all the time. But make appointments with them to have conversations about whatever, you know? Like, I'd like to make an appointment to talk to you about the taxes. I'd like to make an appointment to talk to you about our vacation. I'd like to make an appointment to talk to you about, you know, our garden. Rather than, you know, we live together, so... You know, I was thinking of planting some roses, you say to the person, right? They're right there, and you're saying it to them, right? What's the problem? Well, the problem is that you didn't ask them before you started talking to them if they were up to talking to you about it. You just started talking. In fact, they're not paying any attention to you. They're, you know, making a breakfast or whatever.

[22:55]

Now, they're not listening to you at all. They're actually kind of annoyed that you're making this noise while they're trying to talk to someone else. They don't want to talk about your, huh? I'm playing my banjo. Yeah, I'm playing my banjo or whatever, and you're, some kind of noise about roses? Well, you know? With a stranger, you wouldn't just walk up to them and sort of like interrupt their banjo playing or whatever, their tooth brushing. You'd say, excuse me, um, Actually, it probably wouldn't even bother them. You wait until they finish. When they're done brushing their toothbrush and they put it down, you say, could I talk to you about something? They say, what? I say, I want to talk to you about the garden and the roses. You say, later, maybe. Maybe later. Okay, well, when? And so on. With the person you're intimate with, you don't even necessarily check. And they don't even pay attention to you. And you're just sitting, talking away. They're not listening to you. And then you think, you say, I'm going to plant those roses and this kind of roses. And they don't even hear you. So you go out in the yard and you start planting them. And then they come out a couple hours later and say, what are you doing?

[23:56]

You're planting those roses there? I didn't want to. You thought, well, I just talked to you about them. What? I don't remember what you're talking about. Because you're so intimate with them that you don't have to check to see whether they heard you. So treating them like strangers, like, I'm talking to you now and there's a good possibility you're not listening to me, right? Hmm? That's what I thought. Not to mention that they're not paying attention to you because you're just that person who lives there and isn't, and is being rather, you know, and is just chattering away and who knows what you're talking about because you didn't ask to be listened to. You're just living your life over there in the same place You didn't say, would you listen to me? The person is not listening to you. Now, sometimes even when they're listening to you, as they get older, they lose their hearing and they don't hear you. That's another thing. Even though you had an appointment and they're listening to you, they can't hear you. And you don't formally stop and say, did you hear what I said?

[24:59]

And they say, no. So let me say it again. And then you check, did you hear it that time? Yes. Or you have a conversation and they say, yes, I heard you. But then they forget. But since you're so intimate, you don't check to see if they remember. You just say, the conversation, that's standard. That's it. I told you. You agreed. That's it. We're done. But you didn't get them to sign that they sign off on the agreement you made and then put it on the poster or something saying, you agreed to this. And ask them to look at it every day like you would with a stranger. But not really like with a stranger. You don't do that with a stranger, usually. Because once you start to get intimate with the stranger, because you've got an agreement with the stranger, and so you get more intimate with the stranger because you treat the stranger like a stranger, then you do like with the intimate person who you treat like they're intimate, but not really like they're intimate, more like they're just you. They're just what you think they are. You can't stand the intimacy.

[26:01]

It's too much trouble. Intimacy, too much trouble. So anyway, oh, and then one, I'm looking at, you know, one of the basic and most intimate relationships that we have is mother-child relationship. And I just start with that one because it is a biologically structured formality, highly formal. but it's highly formal all these little arrangements physical arrangements are made so that the mother and the child can span the intimacy and vulnerability they're totally vulnerable to each other and they can stand it because of various naturally set up by the biological system then once the baby is born they have to set up new structures

[27:08]

in order to be able to tolerate the vulnerability they have to each other and they do in a healthy relationship they do set up these new structures formal understanding but you make a lot of effort to instill like you cannot bite the nipple you keep doing that until they get the picture that a formal relationship where you don't bite it you suck you don't bite Gradually you teach them hygiene, brushing the teeth, taking baths, teach them how to put on clothes, go through rituals, teach them how to poop, all this stuff. You develop formal procedures in order to tolerate, of course, the intimacy that's there, because you have to deal with the shit, they have to deal with the shit. And together you're practicing quite intimately, so you need these forms. Hopefully you haven't.

[28:10]

The father has to work in some ways harder than the mother in a certain way to develop the children. Because the father may not have the biological support to develop the forms. But if the father doesn't have the forms of the child, the father also can't stand the vulnerability and the intimacy either. nor the child, nor the father, nor the child. We cannot stand this. We cannot cope with it. It's too much. What we do is we just shrink back from it, ignore it, minimize it, avoid it. We know how to do that. That's called I'm going to do it alone. You kids do what I say. Rather than, I'm vulnerable to you people, you kids, and you're vulnerable to me.

[29:13]

Everything you do can get to me. Everything I do can get to you. This is too much for me. Yeah, it's too much. Face it. You need a lot of formality to face it. You need precepts and commitment to it. like not praising self at the expense of others, like, I'm the adult, I know what's right, you do it. That's violating a person, that attitude. Actually, sounds like it. Or how do you deal with, how do you deal with the kid then? You praise yourself at their expense and you know better than them. Well, you maybe know better than them, but you don't praise yourself at their expense. Somehow, you don't do that. Somehow, you respect them, even though you also know you know things that they don't know.

[30:18]

You use that form to tolerate intimacy, which isn't just that all the power is over on your side just because you know things that they don't know. Because it's not true that all the power is over on your side. It's not true that they're vulnerable and you're not. You're both vulnerable. So, you know, I see Gloria's hand. Yes, Gloria. Yes. Is there a difference between formality and social conventions? Yeah, I think so. Sometimes social conventions are not formal. There are some social conventions which are anti-formal, anti-intimate, anti-vulnerable. I think quite a few, actually. We have conventions of ignorance, conventions of avoiding intimacy. .

[31:26]

How so? Recognition of gay marriage? Yes. Well, this is really a good example because I think some people realize that well, like, one of the jokes is, why should gay people not, you know, be exposed to the misery of marriage? Why should they be able to have relationships with all the problems of being married? But I don't agree with that perspective exactly.

[32:48]

I would say that gay people need formality in order to live together intimately. Otherwise, they're just living And then they have outflows and suffering and causing problems. They need structures. They need forms. And if they wish, and some of the forms they may wish to use, other people feel that if they use those forms, that will confuse the forms that they're using. But that's possible. of establishing formal structures is that when you set up formal structures, it affects other people's formal structures. So, in fact, that is part of the struggle here. In order to have healthy, same-sex relationships, you need formality. Otherwise, unwholesome suffering. I should say unwholesomeness and suffering. Because people... head people are intimate heterosexual people are intimate with each other heterosexual people are intimate with gay people gay people are intimate with gay people and any of the people who don't have formality are not going to be able to realize and tolerate their intimacy and not having those formality and not being able to tolerate intimacy they're going to back away from it when they back away from it we're going to have problems

[34:16]

So they're coming forward and they're saying, we need this. But setting it up, you have to set it up in relationship to other forms. So if they use the same form or similar form to the one other people are using, that's part of the intimacy too. But the formality has to deal with other formalities. And that's the struggle we're going right now. How is that going to work? Because they need it. They need something. But there's an impact because the heterosexual formalities are vulnerable to the formalities that we use. There's vulnerability there. And if the heterosexual people don't want to deal with that vulnerability, then they're going to back away from it and there's going to be problems with that. So how can we encourage them to find a way to be formal in the formality between the forms in such a way that they can tolerate the fact that heterosexual people are vulnerable to gay people.

[35:27]

We need some form to tolerate that. And also to tolerate and be open to the fact that gay people are vulnerable to heterosexuals. A lot of heterosexual people, they say, I don't mind gay people, you know, they're fine with me. But they don't think that actually that they're having an impact on them, that this straight culture is having an impact on them. They don't recognize that. And also they don't like to recognize that the same-sex culture is having an impact on them. A lot of them don't want to recognize that, right? Because it's scary. A lot of people are scared. The idea that their life would be touched by, touched by, penetrated by another style of life. In other words, they're scared of being a Buddha.

[36:35]

Buddha's touched by gay people people but who wants to be like touched by everybody my god it's too much that's why we need formality in order to tolerate being touched by everybody because buddha is touched by everybody and buddha touches everybody buddha has formality to tolerate it so there's a very good example we're struggling with right now how to work with these forms so that same-sex marriages can be healthier. You know? And I heard this one, I heard this one couple talking, you know, they were just getting married. They just got married. And I think it was like, I don't remember exactly, but I could hear the voices of the two men. They just got married. And then I heard that one of them said,

[37:39]

My 90-year-old father, I thought, that's kind of an old father. And then I got the next part. And my grandchildren were there, too. And it just really touched me that these two grandfathers were getting married. It really touched me. And just like, it's just like, yeah, it's so nice. And, and one of them was like, kind of like had a kind of like clear voice, you know, it's like real clear. And the other one's voice was real shaky. They said that they were so different. It was so lovely. The intimacy and the vulnerability and the whole family and multi-generation. Well, I guess like father, Father, son, and grandchildren.

[38:43]

Four generations there together doing this wedding thing of two men. This is intimacy. This is like Buddha. This is like Buddha. Buddha's like, yeah, yeah, right. We're all together here. Not like, get these grandchildren out of here or get my weird grandfather out of here. Yeah, you can say weird grandfather, but we need a form like a wedding so that they can say weird grandfather. You know, and we can like express ourselves and be who we are and tolerate it. Get rid of anybody. Buddha doesn't try to get rid of anybody. Because Buddha can stand everybody. Buddha can tolerate everybody. And there's no outflows. And when you can tolerate everybody, there's no gain or loss. You can't gain anything when you're tolerating everybody and you're vulnerable to everybody. You're totally, like, incapacitated. All you can do is be Buddha and have no outflows.

[39:50]

Because you can't gain anything or lose anything when you're Buddha. Buddha can't lose anything or gain anything. Right? Everybody knows that. How could Buddha lose anything? What could Buddha lose? A shoe? Well, I lost my shoe. Oh, well, Lord Buddha, we can get you some other shoes if you'd like. Well, I like that one particularly. I want a pair. This is my favorite. Well, don't you remember that you could, like, date a pair? Oh, yeah, that's right, because I'm Buddha, right? My vulnerability goes with me being able to have multiple shoes. multiple types of shoes if I really want them. Oh, I think they're reminding me. I forgot that. It's nice to be Buddha because everybody reminds me of my powers. So anyway, here's an example. I have gophers, you know. Gophers live around my house, you know, and I...

[40:53]

And they make tunnels under the earth so that they can, I guess, eat these little animals that live in the ground. And then they make these mounds all around the house. And I don't like to look at the mounds, actually. I don't like walking up and over around these mounds and stuff. I like to kind of like just sort of a greenish kind of a thing rather than the brown mounds all over the place. I kind of have difficulty tolerating my intimacy with the ghosts. I'm having trouble with my intimacy with the ghosts. And I've been talking about my intimacy with the gophers for quite a while, and people have been buying me all kinds of non-violent ways of dealing with gophers, because people do not want me to kill those gophers.

[41:59]

They do not want me to kill gophers because I give people the precepts, right? Giving us the precepts about I'm not killing, so we don't want him to kill the gophers, because that's going to screw the whole situation up here. Let's give him kind of like other ways of dealing with the gophers. Let's encourage him not to kill the gophers because we can tell he's on the verge. Eliminate the gophers. I have difficulty tolerating my vulnerability to the gophers. The gophers are penetrating my green body. My nice, green, grassy surrounding my house is being penetrated and defiled and mutilated by the gophers because they're so intimate with my building yard. And there's this huge park all around my house, but they want to dig in my yard because my yard probably has more yummy little stuff in it than just the general . Partly because you put water on the grass, right?

[43:05]

And then the animals can move through the dirt more easily. I need some kind of formality to help me deal with my vulnerabilities and to help me deal with their vulnerability to me, to me to be aware how vulnerable they are to me. So I sort of messed with their landscaping, their above ground landscaping. I don't know if they care, but But I think, you know, like, if my grandson dug holes in the yard, you know, and made mounds around all over the yard, I would not try to eliminate him. I wouldn't.

[44:06]

I might not think of killing him. Even though I do not maybe like the placement of the holes he would make. What about if my wife wanted to plant rose bushes in the lawn? They're kind of nice, but I don't like them there. I don't want them at random, and I like them sort of like... But what if she wanted them in places I didn't like? What kind of formality could I develop with her so I could tolerate my vulnerability to her rose growing? Because I probably wouldn't try to kill her, but some people actually probably do think of killing their spouses because of messing with the lawn actually just like people think of killing gophers but Buddha doesn't even think of killing gophers he can tolerate the gophers coming into our little world and making mounds in your body they can tolerate

[45:11]

because they practice with the gophers and they practice with the cockroaches and they practice with all these people doing all this they can tolerate it and then there's no gain and loss it's like i'm like well i had this lawn and now i have many many mounds not a loss because i'm intimately practicing with the mound makers And it's not a loss. I didn't lose the lawn. I didn't gain the gophers. I'm more operating on practicing together with gophers, being vulnerable and intimate with gophers. That's the Buddha way, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. The Buddha way can also be making the lawn, planting roads. And they don't just bite once. They go at you again and again.

[46:16]

And they actually drop blood. Because they built their house under the bamboo, which I planted. And now that they moved in, they do not want me messing around with my bamboo. They have become residents of my bamboo area. So now I have to stay away from the bamboo. And I had to keep my grandson away from the band board there, too, because if he got bit by those things, it would be really bad. So anyway, I need some kind of formal structure. Well, one of the formal structures I have is a precept called don't kill. It's a formal structure. And I need to have a formal structure to remember the precepts. and be recommit to the precepts so that I can tolerate this strange intimate relationship I have with these rodents that in my life I didn't invite them but there they are and it's hard to live with them unless without the support or with the support

[47:39]

with these formal supports, I can just about stand it. But I have to keep, again, I have to ceremonially reenact these formalities. I have to do them over and over. It isn't just once I think, oh, don't kill the gophers. Don't kill the gophers. Over and over, do not think of killing gophers. Over and over. A formality to remind me find some way to tolerate these beings coming into my life. And, you know, what's their part? Tolerate that they're not necessarily committed to, you know, some formality about checking with me before they move in. So it seems kind of like unfair in a way. So how can I deal with that aspect? I was talking to some people recently, and one of them felt really abused by the other one because of a conversation that they had where the other person was just talking and talking and talking and talking, and the person who felt abused was saying, well, maybe that's enough, you know.

[49:25]

And the other person says, you know, do you want to stop? And the other person said, well, I don't know, no. And then again we say, well, maybe that's enough. And the other person was kind of saying that they wanted to stop, but they didn't quite dare just say, I'd like to stop, because they were afraid of hurting the other person's feelings. And the other person wasn't picking up on the cues, so I just went on and on and on. and getting, in some sense, more and more intimate without actually getting the other person's permission. So I suggested to them that in the future, because these people do have some kind of like destiny to spend time together, that they ask the other person before the conversation starts if the other person is up for the conversation. And that they check partway through the conversation to see if the other person would like to stop or how the person's feeling.

[50:39]

And if the person says, fine, to say, really? Because sometimes in the past it's gone on too far, gone on too long. Is it really so? Is it OK? and in both sides and that you also have ways of signaling that you can stop the other person if they don't stop and ask how it's going that you have a it's okay to stop you and tell you that you'd like a break or like to stop and and and say that to each other and agree on that and reiterate that that formality over and over not necessarily every single conversation, but on some rhythm, we recommit to the formality. Either by, you know, recommit to it. So in the Buddhist practice, traditionally, the monks, once or twice a month, would get together and re-fight the formalities. Twice a month. They'd re-reiterate

[51:44]

recite the formalities of their practice together. Ethical commitments, but also the way that they relate to each other. They would also confess if they'd slipped in any of those formalities. So there's things like stealing and lying, but there's also things like letting certain people go first and some other people go second, which you agree on. It doesn't seem that particularly evil but still the formality makes possible the intimacy and slipping up in the formal and sometimes even though it's not like an evil thing or a cruel thing or a disrespectful thing it's kind of disrespectful of the intimacy because you think oh it's not necessary to re to to maintain the form but if you don't maintain the form you can just the intimacy and the vulnerability, because you think, well, we already need it.

[52:47]

We don't need to let go of this again. But if you ask the other person, they might say, oh, yes, we do, actually. You may not think you do, but I need it. I need you to say again what the agreement is. Yes, Sean. Two questions, yes. I'm wondering about word tolerance. Because for me, I'm not sure word tolerance has a negative resonance to it. That is, something like something. I guess I'd prefer if you said you faced something or I was even wondering about, you talked about holding hands with other people or if you're embracing something.

[54:03]

I think I understand why you're abusing the word following because you talked about things that are critical or painful or even beautiful to the extent that they start making you lose hold of who or what you're doing. I guess my own experience, whether it be duty or pain, I've got the idea of embracing it or celebrating it or almost actively participating in it. It's both powering it for us, health for us, but you've got that. If there's any problem with what you sometimes are able to do, that's fine, but I guess I'm I guess I am saying that tolerance doesn't mean that you're not relaxed or that you're not... Tolerance in some sense means that you're able to be there with something that is difficult.

[55:12]

In a situation where there might be a sense of trying to run away from that you're able to be there. Well, part of what you may be tolerating is that you're being not just almost penetrated, or you're being entered. Something's coming into your life that usually, that's new to you, that you hadn't And it's making you feel like, and you're sensing that you're vulnerable, you can be hurt, because this is getting so close. Vulnerability is different from harm. Vulnerability means you can be harmed. So sometimes when vulnerability, if you're not used to it, it can be somewhat, not harmful necessarily, but painful to open to this new way.

[56:20]

And you can get frightened. And so tolerance may be necessary before you can embrace something. You can't actually be there. It's kind of hard to embrace it and celebrate it. And Rilke, I think, several times in the last few days, Rilke has this poem where he says something about talking about angels as these great beings who deign not to annihilate us. And then he says that beauty is a terror. Beauty is the beginning of a terror that we can just barely tolerate. So it's not like beauty is like, okay, and now I'm going to embrace it. He's saying it's a little bit dicier than that. That when you can embrace it, maybe it's sort of like cooled down a little bit.

[57:25]

That the actual cutting edge of beauty is that it's not so easy to celebrate it. Maybe later you can celebrate it, but when it's actually hitting you, it's kind of like overwhelming yourself. Deal with beauty. Matter of fact, the self, embracing the self or the self that embraces kind of blocks the revelation. So there's a little bit of shakiness there maybe. And not only that, but we can't tolerate it unless we have some formality to support it, usually. Again, if we shrink back from the intimacy and shrink back from the vulnerability, and again become all by myself. I'm practicing now. I don't everybody. Then in that space, I don't need much vulnerability. I'm away from the vulnerability.

[58:26]

I'm away from the intimacy. I'm on my own. Then I'm back in the realm of gain and loss, of approval and disapproval, of running my own program with some assistance if I want it, or getting the assistance I need. I've shrunk back from this place of practicing together with people where there's no outflows. But even to, like, arrive at an expression of this is difficult. And the fact that it's difficult is another reason why I think we need some formality. This discussion is contributing to, by which we can discuss its very dynamic way we are with other people and other beings. So this class is a form of structure to talk about these difficult things. Yes, Lydia? Yeah, uh-huh. Yeah, interconnectedness.

[59:27]

Yes. Yes. Communication boundary setting. Container building. Yeah. And communication. A lot... A big part of it is talking, giving your word, using words. You know? Using words develops, again, the ability to talk in situations because... It doesn't mean that people are going to do what they said, but you do have some words to deal with. They did say some stuff. It doesn't mean they'll follow through, but you have these words to refer to, which are forms. Words that are given in certain ways can then be used as forms of intimacy. It's another... It's like when you're in words practices, there's no giving up on the situation. well like when people get divorced yeah okay so that that you

[61:01]

So the Buddha, in a sense, doesn't get divorced from anybody, but the Buddha might. If the Buddha got married, the Buddha could conceivably get divorced, but the Buddha would get divorced without becoming not intimate with the spouse. The Buddha is intimate with the spouse and intimate with non-spouse. So if the spouse stopped being a spouse, the Buddha would not stop being intimate with the person who used to be the spouse. So there would be some formal rearrangement so that you could tolerate the intimacy in a different way. But intimacy can't be taken. Once you're intimate with somebody, you're intimate with somebody. And in fact, you are already intimate with somebody. So getting married and having the formality of marriage makes marriage possible. But if you then stop being married, you need other formalities to negotiate the consequences of having a former spouse in your life.

[62:04]

There could even be a restraining order, which they often use for former spouses, so that they have a formal understanding that you cannot come into the house anymore. People also have restraining orders about their kids, parents, formal structures by which they can stand the intimacy of this person this person who's like this is my mother this is my son who comes in my house and trashes it and i i cannot tolerate that intimacy so i have the structure to tolerate it and then maybe things go pretty well person doesn't come in and trash the house anymore say what about the gopers well If I could make a deal with the gophers, I would. If I could have a restraining order on the gophers, fine. But I don't know how you can have a restraining order on gophers. What are you going to do? A dog? I have a dog. And I have a dog, too. I got a dog I'm intimate with. And it's not a him.

[63:07]

It's not a him. It's a her. And this guy, this little girl loves rodents, but somehow she's not doing the gopher thing. I don't know what the deal with the gopher is. Maybe the gophers are too similar to what it is, but she doesn't go after the gopher. She goes after mice. So the mice aren't such a problem because there's a restraining order on the mice called this Jack Russell terrier who does like to stick her nose in holes. But she's not doing this gopher thing. So I spent a great deal of my life clearing away the mounds and also I spent a great deal of my life vacuuming up dog hair. Now I could shift, you know, I just start wearing brown and white. And then, you know, it's kind of like all the hair that would cover me in would be no problem. You know, I'd just be in there with her and I wouldn't have to vacuum all the time.

[64:09]

That would be a formal adjustment to the intimacy I have with this animal. But the other way I do it is I vacuum. I vacuum. This animal is bringing his hairs into my life. All over my life. Hairs. Brown and white hairs. Get a poodle. French poodle. They don't shed. But anyway, now I've got this little animal who's not chasing the gophers. But I do have a kind of a restraining order on the gophers, which is these beepers. But they don't seem to... I'm not sure they work, because I put the beeper in, and all these mounds happen around the beeper. So I could just give up and not have a lawn, or have a different type of a lawn, give up on my idea of a lawn, that But still, then I'd be intimate with that.

[65:13]

And I'd be vulnerable to that. In fact, I look out there and I go, those mounds have an effect on me. I can't stop it. They affect me. I'm vulnerable to mounds. I'm vulnerable to grass. I'm vulnerable to Japanese maples. In the springtime, in the autumn, and in the winter. The day I see those maples, they get me. You know, no matter what time of year it is, they get me. At that time of year, they get me in the way they are that time of year. They get me. I'm vulnerable to the maples. I'm intimate with the maples. But somehow, I don't know, the formality makes it possible for me to deal with the intimacy with them. I'm okay. I'm not running away from it. And I do a little pruning and Leslie is a person in our class named Leslie.

[66:16]

She's a tree pruner. She's not here tonight. And I'm vulnerable to that, too. You know? She's a Green Gulch. She's a Green Gulch. I know. I saw her there. I saw her at Green Gulch, yeah. I saw her there today. And when I saw her, she didn't look at me. And that affected me. And... And my trees are affected by Leslie. And you're affected by Leslie. And the more you open to how you're affected by Leslie, and the more I open to how I'm affected by Leslie, and the more I realize my intimacy with Leslie, the more I need formality to deal with it. Formality to deal with the pain of her not looking at me. These notes are clever. You can maybe give them to her. And ask her why she didn't look at me. I could, but I don't have necessarily the form of asking Leslie why she didn't look at me.

[67:19]

Why didn't you look at me at one that we agree on? Why didn't you look at me ritual? Yes? Uh-huh, yeah. Yes. Yes. I thought, well, this way it balances out.

[68:25]

It's not just how you look well, but it's the way that you look at the world. And then the whole thing of, like the last talk about fugitive indexing, but I believe that now we can really talk about fugitive indexing. One of the commonalities that I was really familiar with was, you're helping so close to your neighbors, and you look out the window, and you see them dead, and somebody's crying, and they're taking you to the door. Mm-hmm. You've only acknowledged two more, and that's it. You know, we don't see them anymore. It's just the first time I've moved near one. So I was just like, okay. Yeah. Right. And they even sometimes, if you're in a small room that's full of people, they have a way of walking through the room in such a way that nobody sees them go through the room.

[69:37]

You sort of see them, but they're busy. ...to the room. That's what they're telling you. The way that they move through the room allows you to not have to deal with them going through the room. And as if they learn how to do that. Some of them do. And therefore, they don't have to avoid going through the room. It causes you to have to deal with them when they go through the room, which they don't want to bother you because you're in the midst of a lot of things. So they go, but they do need to go through the room, and they know how to go through the room in such a way that it's no inconvenience for you. It's putting the signal up, you don't have to deal with me as I'm going through the room. I don't like you, and I'm not relating to you, because then you've got to relate to that. But this is not hostility, this is not warmth, this is not coldness, this is like, you don't have to deal with me, but I have to get through the room, so this is the way I'm going to get through. I heard that... We had this lady who lived with us at Sunset in a long time.

[70:44]

And you can misuse formality, of course. You can use formality to keep people away and to deny intimacy. You can use it that way too, of course. That's true. But you still need formality in order to stand the intimacy. So something we need But a part of the formality is also that it's mutually created. That's also another part of the formality I would suggest, that it's not unilateral, the formality. So that if you're stuck on it, the other person who sets it up with you can comment on you using the formality in your own way to defend yourself rather than to help you not be defensive. Because again, this stuff has to be reiterated.

[71:47]

And sometimes people can agree on a form, and the next day they don't. So part of the form is to check whether they're still on the form, which is kind of a hassle. It takes a lot of . But if you don't do it, you're avoiding intimacy, and you're avoiding, you're trying to avoid intimacy, and you're trying to avoid vulnerability. And if we don't do this work, then I think the honorable thing to do is, I'm not doing the work. I'm avoiding intimacy. I'm avoiding vulnerability. And I'm on a power trip. And now the outflows are happening. And this is trouble. And it goes to, yes, it is. It's causing trouble. It's nice because I'm not vulnerable now. And I'm not ignoring the vulnerability. I'm ignoring the intimacy. I'm not hassled by all the work I have to do to maintain the intimacy and maintain the forms. I maintain the intimacy, but maintain the forms which allow me to face it.

[72:49]

Save a lot of trouble. But something is dead in my heart. It's nice, kind of like, for it to be dead, because it's so simple. Me now. Yeah. Part of the culture you grew up is like that. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I'm actually trying to get me a new president. Because, you know, there's this thing called unilateralism. It's in the dictionary, in the American Heritage Dictionary.

[73:52]

Unilateralism means a foreign policy of acting without consulting other parties, even your allies. And that's part of the culture we grew up in, is unilateralism. Now, we had this thing about preemptive strikes, preemptive invasions. We weren't supposed to go that far, but now we've even gone that far. That sort of analogy is kind of like unilateralism, which is America is now extremely that way, but there's some tendency in our culture to be unilateral, to decide for yourself what you're going to do. rather than be bilateral which is another formality being bilateral two-sided so when you do something you check with the other side you haven't you have some relationships with people so when you do things you don't just do them and you don't just tell people you're going to do them you say i'm thinking of doing this with somebody you do that you have that

[74:59]

you're intimate enough with or somebody you'd like to be intimate with now somebody you're vulnerable enough with or somebody is vulnerable to you enough so if you realize that if you don't say i'm thinking of doing this because i think it would be good if you don't say that before you do it this person could be totally upset or demoralized or insulted or you know disrespected or anyway harmed And we weren't raised in a culture which is highly recommending being bilateral with everything we do, right? And now we have the, not the ultimate probably, but it's been pushed really far now about the United States is like outrageously unilateral. But it's kind of an outgrowth of this rugged individualism. Don't talk to anybody about what you're going to do.

[76:02]

Because if you talk to people about what you're going to do, they might not agree with you. So don't ask them beforehand because they might not agree. Then if you just do it, say, well, I didn't know you didn't want to. But if you ask them and then they say you don't, then it's harder to do it, right? So if you really want to do something, don't talk to them. It may not help. But again, do you want to do something or do you want to do things with people? Do you want to get your way or do you want to live a life of love? I think I'd rather just get my way, actually. Because this love thing is so complicated. You've got all these forms and agreements. So I'll just be unilateral and hope it works out. And of course it doesn't. But when you're unilateral, you're also invulnerable. So even if you do cause trouble, you're not going to admit it. With all these people you're causing trouble with, so that's their problem.

[77:03]

They can live with it. You know, we're the greatest country. If they don't like it, move off the planet. We're in charge. Go someplace else. If you don't like what we're doing here, move to Canada. If you don't like living in Canada next to us, move out of the... Get out of here. We're in charge. Live with us. You've got to face it. We're in charge. We're in charge. That's it. We're not going to talk to you about it. We're not going to talk to each other either.

[77:27]

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