If I may again say this ancient vow, I vow with all beings from this life on throughout countless lives to hear the true Dharma. that upon hearing it no doubt will arise in us nor will we lack in faith. And upon meeting it we will maintain the Buddha Dharma and thus the whole earth and all living beings will attain the Buddha way. The Buddha way, as I also mentioned earlier today, could be described as receiving Buddha's compassion and giving Buddha's compassion.

[01:08]

And to do that, to be that way with everyone we meet, that we receive Buddha's compassion in the meeting and give Buddha's compassion And Buddhist compassion is free of any idea, any of the ideas that we have. And so we have this expression which I've used repeatedly of face-to-face transmission that between our face and the face of the moon, in the face of the mountains, in the face of every living being, there is this meeting, there is a conversation.

[02:13]

That conversation is our life together, is the receiving and giving of kindness between us, and that is the conversation in which the true dharma is realized. Not in that conversation, I could say in those conversations, in all conversations, in each conversation, in every meeting. I also mentioned at the beginning of the practice period that One of the things that we sometimes exchange in meetings in the Zen culture, we sometimes exchange stories.

[03:15]

And some of the stories we exchange are stories that occurred in India, before the Zen school was so clearly manifested in the world. Some of the stories we tell are stories that occur in Southeast Asia, in Central Asia, in China, in Japan, in Korea. Some of the stories we tell occurred in California, some of them occurred in Vermont, some of them occurred in Mexico, some of them occurred in Argentina, some of them occurred in France, England. In other words, we tell stories in this tradition about We tell stories about the whole world from a long time ago up to the present.

[04:17]

I tell stories about my grandson which people find easy to digest often. Anyway, we tell these stories and one of the stories that I tell is a story that by understanding stories we become free of stories. Or there is possibility by understanding stories to become free of stories and in that way when we're free of stories we hear the true Dharma. When we're free of stories, we realize the receiving and giving of Buddha's compassion.

[05:24]

If we don't understand stories, we sometimes tend to hold to them as though they were truths, or we sometimes think things are truths, not stories. Some truths can be grasped, but they're conventional truths. They're not ultimately true. Some stories can be grasped. Most stories can be grasped, I guess. And they're conventional truths. They're not ultimately true. That's another story. If we hold to stories, the holding, the clinging, the rigidity blocks the realization, blocks our realization to this dynamic process of giving and receiving Buddha's compassion.

[06:27]

So when we first receive stories we probably do grasp them somewhat. Sometimes we grasp them as that the story really happened like Shakyamuni Buddha and Maha Kashyapa really did go into the cave with the burning chicken. And I'm not saying that they didn't, because that's another story. Although I could say they didn't, that would be another story, and I'd be happy to say they didn't, but to say that's a story and that they didn't isn't really what happened either. And there's also stories of Shakyamuni Buddha meeting people and talking to them, talking to them, talking to them, and finally giving them the teaching of the Four Noble Truths.

[07:35]

The Truths. And when they got this teaching of the Four Noble Truths, I say, then they heard the Dharma. These Four Noble Truths are stories, very skillful stories that the Buddha came up with to help people become free of their stories that they were already holding on to. He loosened them up with their stories and then he gave them some new stories and these new stories were not given to be held onto but given to release people from the sticking points to the belief in separation and so on so that they could hear the true Dharma and be freed. So although they call the Four Noble Truths, I would say that they're really skillful devices that the Buddha used to free people

[08:38]

I'd like to talk about the difference between the word dogma and the word dogmatic. Dogma is actually a teaching, a doctrine, a belief, an opinion, which you could tell people about. about a year ago, I think it was, I saw in the newspaper a kind of interview of various people and asking them some things they believed that they didn't have any proof for, some opinions they had that they didn't have any proof for. But the issue was raised, things you believe or things you think are so that you have no evidence for. And one of the people was a Nobel laureate physicist. And he said he believed that it was kind of a wasted time to spend a lot of research and further discussion of string theory.

[10:05]

So how many of you have not heard about string theory? A few of you have not heard. It's a fairly new theory in physics, and it has the mathematical characteristic that the mathematics of it explain both general relativity and quantum mechanics and harmonize these two versions of physics. It harmonizes the physics of the large and the physics of the small mathematically. And then that mathematics has certain implications about the nature of the phenomenal world. But the problem with the implications is that the nature of the phenomenal world in its actuality is so small

[11:08]

for a long time, it's hard to imagine how you'd ever be able to observe these strings because they're inconceivably small. Actually, they're not inconceivably small. They actually say how small they are, but they're, I don't know what, billions of times smaller than the nucleus of atoms. So this is a very, very, very scientist says he doesn't think it's, his opinion is, or his belief, it's a waste of time to study these things, but he has no evidence that it's a waste of time. In other words, he realizes maybe it is not a waste of time, but he thinks maybe it is, he thinks probably it is a waste of time. Because it's hard to imagine how we'll ever be able to actually measure or observe these phenomena. But he wasn't dogmatic about it. His dogma was, his doctrine, his teaching was that he believed this.

[12:13]

When you move from dogma, a teaching, or a belief or opinion, to dogmatic, you move to arrogant assertion of things that have not been proved and probably can't be proved. you hold to them. And dogmatism, holding to your teachings, to your beliefs, can get to a point that the conversation between you and other beings, the meeting between you and other beings is stopped. you can feel that your dogma, your teaching of your belief is immune from conversation. And your unwillingness to discuss with people or converse with people about your stories, which you don't think are stories, you think they're truths, is sometimes considered to be noble.

[13:37]

So I propose to myself and to you that to some extent it's a choice whether to live. This is something which I offer to you. This is an opinion of mine. It's a belief of mine. But I'm up for it to be tested and to see if we can find evidence for it. And if you can find evidence to the contrary, and I can see that, I will give up my view. My view is, my belief is, that we have a choice between conversation and violence. My belief is that conversation is a way to peace. That meeting face-to-face with people and being willing to talk with them is a path to peace and not and refusing to talk to people because we demonize them or they disagree with us and they're wrong and we're right so there's no point in talking to them and even if they even with people who are also right there's no point in talking to them either because we're not going to change our mind refusing to talk with

[15:17]

beings is the path to violence. And if you're in violence and you're willing to start talking, I think it can end. If somebody can show me that actually not talking to people is the way to end violence and that conversation actually doesn't promote non-violence. I'd like to see evidence for it and I would also be willing to try to show evidence for how when we're feeling violent towards people that conversation is a way to bring peace. However if we hold to our dogmas rigidly I think it stops the conversation. And that's another thing I have, and please show me again if you have evidence that holding to beliefs and not wanting to talk to people promotes conversation.

[16:21]

So I feel that within this community it would be good to undermine any dogmatism in our religious faith here. to spot it and to see if in ourselves and in others we can start conversing and loosening up around our beliefs, our opinions about what is good in life and what is not good. If we can do that we have a chance, if we can do that, in other words, talk to each other even though we're a little bit afraid of talking to each other even within this situation because you know, if there's a difference of opinion. But if we can talk to each other around our differences of opinion, perhaps we can talk to people who have very strongly different views or have very different views and strongly adhere to them and maybe don't want to talk to us about it.

[17:38]

That somehow we can find a way to meet them and engage in conversation with them too and help spread the end of dogmatism. Spread the conversation, the type of conversations, not the type of conversation, spread the conversation, spread the meeting, spread the interaction between beings. So here's a story. It's a story about It's a story about two monks, two Buddhist monks who lived in China.

[18:45]

One was, we call, the sixth ancestor of Zen. We call him Huineng. And a monk came to visit him whose name was Huairan. And he came to the teacher and he said, and I think the teacher said, where are you from? And I think he said, I'm from or something. Is that right? Anybody know? Anyway, he said where he was from. And then this ancestor, the sixth ancestor says, what is it that thus comes? In other words, what is Buddha? Because thus comes, what thus comes is an epithet, one of the titles for Buddha, the one who comes in suchness.

[19:51]

What is it that thus comes? What is the Buddha? But also, this man just came, so he's also saying, what is it that just come to meet me? So he's both asking, what is Buddha and what is it that's coming to meet me? What's happening right now? What is it that thus comes? And Huay Rang said, to say it's this misses the point. And the ancestors said, well then is there no practice or enlightenment? Or no practice and any way to prove it, to test it, to verify it? Because you won't say it's this.

[20:54]

So how can we have a practice And how can we have evidence for the practice if you won't say this is the practice or this is the Buddha or that's the Buddha? Don't we have to say this is the Buddha and that's not the Buddha in order to practice the Buddha? Don't we have to say this is the practice and that's not the practice in order to do the practice? Don't we have to say this is kindness and this is not kindness in order to do the practice? Or maybe we do have to say it. But when we say it, it misses the mark. That's what the monk said. What is it? What is Buddha? To say it's this or that, to say it's this and not that misses the point. You can say it if you want to, it just misses the point. So go ahead and say it as long as you know that what you said misses the point. If somebody says, what's Buddha?

[21:56]

You can say, my toenail just fell off. You can say that, but most people would know that kind of misses the point. But maybe it doesn't. Or you can say, nice people are Buddha. Or you can say, Buddha is the guy who lived in India a while ago. Or... Some Zen students slap the teacher at that point. Other Zen students sometimes sniffle. Some people take cough drops. But when they do that, do they think that that's it? Or do they do that as a response to say, this is my response to your question about what Buddha is, but I'm not saying this is it. Matter of fact, I'm just showing you how ridiculous it is to say, this is it.

[22:59]

So I'm not going to take a cough drop and I'm not going to slap you. I'm going to say, to say it's this misses the point, great teacher. Well, then how are we going to practice if you won't say it's this or that or take a cough drop? Are you saying that there isn't practice and there isn't realization when you say you won't say it's this or you don't want to say it's this? He said, I don't say, he doesn't say, he says, I don't say there's no practice in realization. He also didn't say there is practice in realization. He said, I don't say there isn't practice and isn't realization. I just say it cannot be defiled. Or you could say, it must not be defiled. But I think it cannot be defiled. You can't defile the practice. You can say the practice is this. You can say Buddha is this. You can say Buddha is that. But actually, even though you say that, it doesn't really defile Buddha. It just misses Buddha.

[24:02]

That's all. If you ask me what is the Buddha, or if you ask me what's happening right now in this meeting, to say it's this or that misses. That's all. In other words, no matter what I say, it can't touch or it can't defile, it can't cage, it can't trap. No matter what I say, it can't trap what's happening. I don't say there's no practice. I don't say there's no enlightenment. I just say it cannot be defiled by anything I say or anything you great masters say. It can't be trapped and defiled by anything we do here, anything we say now.

[25:09]

And then the teacher says, This undefiled way is what all the Buddhas have been caring for and protecting and transmitting. Now you're like this and I'm like this too. This is the conversation between two people. Now, I don't tell the story, although I could, but I do not tell the story that this story really happened. But I could say, you know, that story really happened. But I hope you know when I say that really happened, I'm either kidding or at least telling a story. It is a story which has been has gotten to this room right now to be told.

[26:13]

Somehow I'm telling this story. It's never been told like this before, so this story didn't exist before. It's here for you and me to listen to and maybe thereby hear the true Dharma and give up all our stories upon hearing it we were, I think I forgot to say in my quote, upon hearing it we will renounce worldly affairs and maintain the Buddha Dharma. I forgot that line. When we hear the true Dharma we will renounce worldly affairs. And the worldly affairs we will renounce, we will renounce holding on to our stories and storytelling. So renouncing storytelling is what kind of practice? Louder? Yeah, renouncing storytelling is shamatha training.

[27:17]

Renouncing the stories is vipassana. That's what you read this morning in service. dropping all those signs and stuff, renouncing the story, actually renouncing the stories that you believe even when you're not telling them. You're not always saying, you know, Zen people did that and Jesus did that. You're not always telling these stories, but they haven't been renounced. You still believe them even when you're not telling them. So, one way of renouncing worldly affairs is to renounce telling stories for a little while. Then you become calm. Then you get ready to renounce the story, all the stories, particularly the story of I'm separate from those people who I live with.

[28:23]

And I'm really separate from those people who don't agree with me and don't appreciate me. or some other story like, I'm really kind of close to the people who don't appreciate me but I'm really separate from those who do. There's lots of possibilities in the story and to come up with new possibilities you can make a living telling those new stories. People say, oh, she's very original. Those are two kinds of renunciation, renouncing telling stories and renouncing the stories themselves. So first you renounce telling stories and you become calm and flexible. Then you tell the stories as a way to demonstrate and test and realize that you don't, that you've given them up. To be able to tell your story and it's right while you're telling it

[29:30]

or tell the story right while you're telling it to realize it's a story and not attach to it, then you can hear the true Dharma. And or you can hear the true Dharma and then you can tell the story without holding to it. So now we do this session. We practice this session. And we have some story about this session. So some of us will be practicing giving up our stories about this session. Try to keep giving up the stories about the session and about other things you're thinking about during the session. Try to give them up, give them up, give them up. And when you're calm, excuse me, give up telling the stories.

[30:36]

Give up listening to the stories. And when you're calm, move to give up the story. Undermine your own personal dogmatism. And the way to do that is, first of all, give up thinking about your dogmas, give up thinking about your truths, your teachings. Start to imagine what it would be like not to have everything you experience covered in discursive thought. See what life is like when it's not covered with discursiveness. This is a good time to see what that's like. Would you like to converse about anything?

[31:55]

Yes, Charlene? We can be dogmatic about that? Sure. You could rigidly hold, like I could say, you know, the way for peace in the world is to undermine and let go of rigidly holding to teachings. I could say that, and I could say that while really thinking that what I just said should be rigidly held to. Yes, I could. We could have the rigid, self-righteous, arrogant school of not being rigid, upright, and arrogant. And like I'm not going to talk to anybody who wants me to be arrogant and rigid.

[33:04]

I'm not going to converse with you. Anybody who thinks it's good to not be arrogant and rigid about not being arrogant and rigid, I'm not going to talk to. Yes, it's possible to do that. Okay? Yes? Well, basically it's It's the kind of image of substantial existence that we overlay things with. It's the imagination of some substance, an independent existence in things. And we put that actually, we project that onto, for example, teachings. And without projecting them onto teachings, we can't, it's very difficult for us to actually talk about and hear and understand the teachings. and grasp them. So we use signs to get a hold of teachings, even teachings about how to get rid of grasping signs.

[34:07]

So it's this conceptually imagined substantial existence of particular phenomena. And phenomena offer, they allow us, they give us a way to hook into them and put a They actually want to have a conversation and they so much want to have a conversation with us they'll even have a conversation if we slap substantial existence on them. We want to connect with each other so much we allow each other to imagine, to misimagine each other just so we can have some contact. But then after the contact happens if we understand that the way we made contact with each other and by say with each other I mean between living beings and between living beings and non-living beings, then we can receive a teaching which says the way we made contact is not what the thing is. The way I make contact with you is not you.

[35:11]

The way I have a relationship with you is not you. It's just a means. And the way you have a relationship with the teaching and get to understand the teaching is a means. And then once you understand the teaching then you take away the means and then you understand it more deeply. because at first you confuse the means with the teaching to some extent. So this sutra is talking about how you take away the way you get to know things and then you know them better. But you need a way to know them first. And we use the signs in that way. Yes? that we have been trained to divide between worldly stories. Worldly stories and spiritual stories? I heard you up to the point of we divide between religious, spiritual stories and worldly stories.

[36:19]

I heard up to that point and then I... In our application of teaching, like the teaching of letting go of stories, would that also reach only the spiritual realm? And if it comes to a certain order, like an order we need... Could I say something? Did you say that the teaching or the story, that letting go of stories, would do what? Would only reach so long we want to be in our spiritual stories. But then if we read our worldly stories, for example, of having to earn money, then we don't want to apply the teaching to things like that. You're telling a story about some people now? A story that some people are willing to give up their spiritual stories, but they're not willing to give up their worldly stories?

[37:24]

Actually, I've heard that story from some people. Yeah, I think that's a story that I've heard. And then there's the vice versa, too. Some people are willing to give up worldly stories, but they're not willing to give up spiritual stories. Like they're willing to stop thinking about how to maintain their house or feed their family. They're willing to give that up. Or how anybody feeds their family. They're willing to give up all those stories, but they're not willing to give up the Zen stories, the koans and the stories of the Buddhas. They're not willing to give those up. But there is a story that to realize tranquility, we need to stop telling stories all stories, including the ones which you segregate into spiritual and worldly, but that separation is another story. Spiritual and worldly are only separated by a story. Otherwise, there's no way to separate them.

[38:36]

So the point is, for practicing tranquility, we give up all stories for a while. How do you meet the need for order? Well, one story of how you meet the need with order is you just say, could I just let go of, could I recognize the need for order? Oh, wait a minute. Are you saying that a need for order means you have to think? Yeah, I guess I would say I realize I have a need for order and I use stories in the service of having a sense of order. And I'm going to put myself in a special situation now where I realize I have a need for order, but I'm going to take a little break on telling stories which I use to maintain the order.

[39:43]

So like we often say in Zen, first clean the temple and then sit. In other words, clean the temple enough so you feel like it's pretty orderly now. Now we can sit for a while and stop the stories which we use to order things because we kind of made, you know, we kind of ordered the situation enough that for a certain period of time I can actually give up storytelling. I feel secure. I do have this need for order, but I think it's satisfied enough so I could just take a little break 10-minute, 20-minute, 30-minute, 40-minute break. And then when they had the bell rings, I'll reconsider. Maybe at Kinhina I have to go do something to reestablish order. And I need to tell some stories in order to fulfill that. Like the story of going to the toilet or something. Or I don't know what. I have to, I'm going to take a break now.

[40:47]

But some people even say, well, I think I'll just keep not telling stories all the way through King Him. Because things seem to be, my need for order seems to be like allowing me to continue a while longer. So I have a conversation with the need for order. Like you'd have a conversation with another person who needs you to tell them about what you're doing in meditation practice. so that they can say, you can continue to meditate, but I reserve the right to have further conversations with you about it. And I might want you to return to the thinking realm later. So please check with me later to see if I want you to start thinking again. That's one way. Yes. Excuse me, but most people, of course, they decide to, they have a need for order and they decide, and they say, well, I think it's okay to stop thinking, but they don't anyway. But even when they feel everybody's saying, yes, you can stop thinking for a few minutes.

[41:51]

You know, we'll take care of all your needs for order. We'll keep everything in order for you. The person just, the habit's so strong. So, yes. A story in the body, yeah. That isn't expressing itself as a story, like story, [...] drop story, drop story, but just a feeling in the body that has a kind of truth characteristic. Uh-huh. It feels like truth. Like what? What kind of story, what kind of feeling are you talking about? Danger or... A feeling of danger? Desire or pain. I mean, all kinds of feelings. Okay. And in those, I guess the question is, when you said first we dropped storytelling, and so say we're having this kind of feeling there's no storytelling around it, there might still be a story.

[42:54]

And so that... I don't know what you mean by there might be a story in it. I know you can make a story about it, but I don't see... Well, I don't know if you find a story or if a story arises in relationship to... You start thinking about the desire, you start thinking about whatever it is, and a story will arise. So thinking about these bodily things is the same as giving rise to stories. I mean that synonymously. Everything is available for you to think about. I guess my question is, it presents in a way that seems harder to drop than a story that just is a story, that is recognizably a story. Some things seem to be beckoning you to think more strongly. They seem more like they're true, not necessarily that you think about them more, but that they have this truth character.

[44:00]

Truth character. Sounds like a story. So sometimes the stories come really fast. Yeah. It's like truth. And this is like maybe. Or could be. And truth. This is true. It's a short story, but... But this is true. Now this is true, so what are you going to do about this? You're going to drop this is true? Yes, I am going to. Thank you. We heard you. Yes? How come that realm is drawn out so fully? So when you were first talking about dropping storytelling, it's shamatha practice, and dropping the story itself as the passion, then it seemed to me that in a way it's kind of like the body level of the story is the story as a believed thing that that's where the second kind of Theravada story will take place.

[45:06]

Yeah. You can say body if you want to, that's fine, but anyway, the deep, the deep, the signs, even the, actually, even the shamatha is letting go of this kind of like unconscious senses of things. Even the shamatha is dealing with that fairly deep unconscious thing, letting go of it for a bit. But it doesn't remove it. It just lets it go for a while. You get free of not just your conscious storytelling, but you also get rid of, or not get rid of, you dispense with the conscious story generating, but you also let go of, attenuate for the moment, that unconscious sense of substance. and obstruction and hindrance. But it doesn't get removed permanently by the shamatha training or the shamatha state.

[46:10]

So it's really hard to get free of this discursive covering because it's both conscious and unconscious. The discursive covering is unconscious too. But it's unconscious. And that's why. You can get quite calm, but you can get calmer than that, and calmer and calmer and calmer. And more and more still the involvement in deeper and deeper levels of discursiveness. More and more subtle forms which you could say are physical because it's the working probably of this organ called the brain is producing this phenomenon. Yes. Feeling of pressure.

[47:20]

Am I saying a feeling of pressure is discursive? No, I thought that the feeling of that there may be some story behind that. That's what I thought Catherine was bringing up. But if you just feel like just pressure, period, and that's all there is to it, and it's not like, pressure, but actually this isn't just pressure. You should pay attention to this. This is special. This isn't just regular, this isn't just butt to Zafu, you know, regular butt to Zafu. This is like truth down here. This you shouldn't miss a chance to develop. I think that's what you're talking about. But just pressure, it's kind of like, Is it that simple? Like, I can just, like, let that go and just, like, not make any comment? Yay! A moment of this non-discursiveness. Except not all that talk. Just like... Like, silence without saying so?

[48:27]

Pressure, silence. Pressure, silence. Pain, silence. Pleasure, silence. Color, silence. Sound, silence. Thoughts can arise and not be discoursed on. It is possible to do that. If there's a story there, however, that means, you know, you're actually not getting involved in that story. But not everything's necessarily going to come with a story, except the background story of this thing exists on its own. That one's there, but that's there for everything. And that one you're not going to get into either when you're practicing shamatha, training in shamatha. But also, even if you don't get into it, it doesn't get refuted just by not getting involved in it. Just like if you don't, if somebody has an addiction to something, just not doing the thing doesn't necessarily stop the addiction.

[49:36]

You still make, want it, sort of, even though you're not doing it. It isn't like, hey, I'm over that. I'm not going to go there anymore. It's done. I'm actually not going to use that thing to get away from my life anymore. I think it's over. And not even think it's over. Prove it. live it. But even though you're not doing it, you still might have that tendency. So even if you're not thinking until separate, it still might be there, even if you're giving up thinking that. Okay? I think Maheen was next. Yes? Palenta? You're asking if you may use it. Is it alright if she talks more about Palenta? Is it okay if she talks about Kalinta? She's asking. I guess it's all right, Maheen.

[50:36]

Yeah, that's one, yes, that's one story. One of the stories is we make stories because we're bored. And we get bored because When we're not hating our neighbor, or not lusting after our neighbor, or not thinking about lunch, or planning the day, or telling some story. If we're not telling some story, we actually start to calm down and give up our stories and be kind of calm, then boredom comes. Boredom comes and says, you know, this calm stuff is really boring. I like the, what is it, Baudelaire says, you know, ennui. Boredom is the last thing that comes to get you. When you're just about ready to cool out and relax, and calm down, then boredom comes and says, you know, this is really not interesting.

[51:49]

You should go back and tell some stories. This is really stupid, just giving up these stories and being calm like this. It's not really life. Yeah, so I think boredom is one of the reasons why you go back to telling stories. But usually, if you're like in a state of rage, boredom doesn't come on the job at that time. except maybe, you know, I won't do it, but a really intense, rage-filled boring. But we don't call that boring. That's not ennui. You know, I'm having trouble hearing you. Would you speak louder? Oh, you think it's so simple. That's another story. Why don't you stop saying it's simple? It is boring not to say it's simple. . Did you just tell a story?

[53:13]

I know, I'm asking you, did you just tell a story? I was wondering if you just told a story. But I'm just asking you, So now I just heard, I thought another story, which was, I'm looking for the reason for the story. Is that a story? You're looking for the reason for making the story? Is that the story you're telling me today? I can't hear you. Did you say something? I heard you laugh. Did you say something before that? Yeah, my question is, I'm just trying to get straight if you just told me a story.

[54:21]

Did you or didn't you, according to your understanding? Hmm? Hmm? Have you learned anything yet about this conversation? Are you done with it? Is this conversation over? For now? Okay. Yes, Tracy? You talked about dogma and Dogma and what? No, no. It's not quite like as soon as you... It's not like... Not defiling means that even though you say something and it seems to defile it, it really doesn't.

[55:29]

The other thing is whatever you say does defile it. So I'm not going to say anything about it, he says, because that misses. So missing is like defiling. Yes? Yes, the story is a story that... I don't know if... There's a story that it's an illusion... There's an illusion called a sense of substantial separation between ourselves and other beings.

[56:39]

There is that story and that is an illusion. That is a teaching. And the actual awareness that that's ungraspable and the actual understanding that that's an illusion is what we call ultimate truth. It's a story too, yeah. And it says that that understanding is also a story. Otherwise you make that substantial. Would it be fair to say that everything that we talk about is a story? I think it's fair to say that everything we talk about is a story, and remember that that's a story. I think it's fair to tell stories. And I think that was a fair story that you just told about stories.

[57:41]

Well, then what the teaching is, or what it may be pointing to, is the experience, which can't be told by a story, or can't be explained totally by a story. Yeah, we're looking for an experience that cannot be grasped by a story. And we're telling stories to find what's beyond our storytelling. So what stories will help us to realize what's beyond our stories and or to realize our life together, what it's like to be together without holding to our stories of what it's like to be together. And I'm saying I think the key to that is to meet and converse with everything. And when we notice that we're not conversing, that this is the place to try to get more fluent and fluid and skillful, in our conversations, because conversations will be the way that we together, with all living beings, will realize the Buddha way.

[58:54]

But we're going to have conversations of bouncing our stories with each other. And when we notice, well, I'm just going to hold on to this one and I'm going to reject yours, well, then the conversation, we'll probably notice the conversation starts to stop or get kind of stuck and painful. So then you have a story, I'm having pain in this conversation. And then you might find that although you're saying I'm having pain in this conversation, you might not feel like that's the ultimate truth. And then if you said that to me, I wouldn't necessarily feel like you're forcing something dogmatic position on me. If you said, I'm feeling uncomfortable in the conversation. So then we start being kind of more fluid together. And we may have dogmas which we're holding on to, but in some place we're starting to find some fluidity which gradually we might be able to extend into the areas where we're more rigid.

[59:57]

The conversation that you're talking about I can see. What about the reality of, instead of talking together, working together? A working can be a conversation. Conversation can be nonverbal. Yes, definitely. And sometimes nonverbal conversation sets up the readiness to have a verbal conversation. But there are certain things you can find out about people, sticking points, that sometimes words helps you find their sticking points and helps you find your sticking points and helps them find your sticking points. But sometimes people, you know, like if you were doing some work together, if you could come up to the person and make some physical gestures to, you know, like they seem to be, you notice they're doing something in a certain way which, and it looks like in your mind anyway, or even in your body you feel. I say in your body or mind, what I mean is maybe at a physical level, not at a non-conceptual level, you register that this person's holding on.

[61:09]

You actually register and understand in a direct way that they're holding to something. or you conceptually feel they're holding to something. So you can go over and maybe move in a certain way with them to test that sticking point and you might find it and they might see it too without saying anything. But still there's some concepts maybe working there. And you may find out that they're holding this position and when you sort of question it with your body they seem to resist. And you say, I thought you might resist. You might feel. But you might sort of do something else and they might say, you might notice their resistance gave way. Like somebody pushes you and instead of pushing back, you like do a flip or something. And they go, they get disarmed. Or you smile. in a certain way and they get disarmed. And then you notice that the conversation is starting, the physical conversation is starting to loosen up. You become more fluid with each other physically and you haven't really said anything.

[62:12]

So that is a big part of our practice. A physical thing can sometimes help a verbal thing and a verbal thing can sometimes help a physical thing. Like somebody can say verbally, they can say, relax. And it can affect your body. Or you can smile and it can change a person's speech. So we communicate through our physical postures and we communicate through our words and with people who are quite, you know, aware. We're even communicating with our minds, but most people don't understand what we're thinking. So work is a, you know, that's the big thing is then, is to work together. And sometimes we're working together silently. So, yeah, it's a big part. Yes?

[63:18]

So then pulling up a flower is a conversation. Yeah, so that's right. That's the classical Zen thing. The teacher holds the flower and turns it and the disciple, the successor, smiles. And then he talks. So there was both, first it was non-verbal and then it was verbal. And the verbal stuff was part of it too. And then there was the flaming chicken part, which is kind of non-verbal. The chicken didn't say anything? Yeah, there's no report on the chicken saying anything so far. It was kind of going crackle, crackle. I have a story that every time you mention the flaming chicken that you made it up yourself. You have a story that I made up the flaming chicken by myself? No, I mean that you made it up with the help of Bonnie. Oh, you mean... You have the story that...

[64:19]

Oh, I see. That like 50 years ago, there wasn't stories of flaming chickens around? That's your story? Okay, so that's your story. And I have a story that there were stories being told, actually usually being told in Chinese. Yeah. There were stories written in Chinese about flaming chickens in the cave with Shakyamuni and Mahakashapa. Now, There's another story which that those stories did not exist before the Zen school arose in China. The story of the flaming chickens is a Zen story, also the story of the Buddha holding up the flower. There's no record, we have no evidence for that story in Sanskrit, Pali, or even Chinese before I believe the 11th century. But then tomorrow, somebody may dig up some, you know, thing under Beijing, and they come up with this text, and they carbon date it and so on, and they find out that the text was actually composed 8 million years ago.

[65:36]

You know? And it says in the text that Shakyamuni Buddha will come, you know, in about... eight million years from now, and he will hold up a flower, you know, or that it's only 2,500 years ago, and it was taken down right then in Vulture Peak, in the caves behind Vulture Peak, it was taken down, and right next to it, they just happened to find, right next to the Chinese, the Sanskrit original, with Shakyamuni Buddha's tooth attached to it. And the scholar is saying, we got proof that the Zen story really did happen. But not all evidence is enough for people to... So there would be quite a bit of research on this tooth and on the texts. Because it could have been planted. Did a joke just happen back there?

[66:39]

Huh? You might find some chicken bones. A photograph? Yeah. So, you know, I heard the Dalai Lama say that if people come up with evidence or proof that some of the claims of Buddhism are wrong, we should change our teachings. We should respond to evidence. But even before we respond to evidence... And so if we get evidence, we should change. If we get proved that we're wrong, we should change. But also, even before we're proved we're wrong, we should start to have conversations with people who think we're wrong. All the people who think we're off, we should be... Not all of them. Take it back. All of the people who think we're wrong, when we have time, when we can get around to it, we should talk to all the people that think we're wrong and

[67:46]

whatever, and I have my opinions, you have your opinions, whatever opinions we have, we should talk to the people who have different opinions, and we should even talk to people who have same opinions, because some people have the same opinions to us. Like, I know some people who agree with me completely, but they adhere to their positions, which I agree with. So although I agree with their positions, I don't like that they're holding on to them. So I agree with you completely, but I think you should give it up. And I think you're holding on to it. And they might say, you know, I agree with that too. I am holding on to it. You're right. Yeah. And I'm holding that you really do agree with me. Well, it is true that I do agree with you. How can I agree with you without holding to that? Well, you can just have somebody come to say, you know, who disagreed with you and see if there's any holding there. And is there any, then you maybe can find the holding in your agreement.

[68:49]

Anyway, I'm sorry to say, in a way I'm sorry to say that I didn't think up, without some assistance, from some texts which have been transmitted from the old country, I did not come up with the story of the Flaming Chicken. I'm really kind of sorry that I'm not that, that's one original thing I didn't come up with. But we did have this conversation, which has never happened before, of someone thinking that I made up the flaming chicken story. And also, speaking of the Dalai Lama, sometimes people hear some things I said, and then they remember what I said, and then they tell people, when they recite what I said, they say the Dalai Lama said it. So I'm not getting credit for some of the things I said, but I am getting credit for my things being attributed to the Dalai Lama. And then sometimes the Dalai Lama is saying, people are saying, I said.

[69:51]

Of course, not the good things he says. When he's being kind of, you know, impatient and attached, the things he says then, they say, I say. And when I'm being real nice, the things I say, they say, he said. And that's a story, but it's really true. But I'm not attached to it, really. It's just an enjoyable thing that's occurred recently. So it looks like that's enough for today. Is that right?

[70:38]

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