my picture of my relationship with you and my relationship with yesterday. There's a number of different topics that I feel a wish to discuss or I see indicate that it would be good to talk about them. And so let's see, I'd like to talk about the relationship between action of living beings and the formation of world. And I'd like to talk about two main forms, two main patterns of relationship, one which is called delusion and the other which is called enlightenment. A little bit about rebirth.

[01:06]

I'd like to relate to, what's your name again? Brett. Brett's question about whether the relationship of mutual support and love is something that's potential or actual, to discuss that. Is there anything else from yesterday? Oh, and how vow relates to intention. How are they the same or different? Yes? You mentioned also fear. And fear, yeah. Somebody was sitting over there. Where is she? Fear, how does fear work in this arena of learning about action?

[02:09]

An ancestor in his tradition said that to learn the Buddha way is to learn the self. And to learn the self is to forget the self. And to forget the self is to be enlightened, but you could also say realized, by all things. And to be realized or enlightened or verified by all things is to drop off self and other. Dropping off body and mind is a metaphor for freedom. So once again, to learn the Buddha way, which is the path of freedom and peace and harmony among beings, is to learn about the self.

[03:25]

And to learn about the self is to forget the self. Now, forget the self isn't exactly that you forgot exactly, but it's more like that you learn about the self and you learn about the self so thoroughly that you can realize that not just that you can't find an independent self, but you see that an independent self cannot be found. There's a difference between not finding something and seeing that it can't be found. In one case, you're looking and you haven't found it yet, but maybe you'll find it later. In the other case, you are certain that it cannot be found because you've studied so thoroughly. And when you're sure that it cannot be found, then everything that happens will re-enlighten you. or realize you, or you'll realize that what happens, the things that you meet, or the things that happen in your life, they give you your life, you see that.

[04:39]

The light that you're holding onto, that you think that you could find, that's independent of other people anymore, so then whatever comes gives you life, you see that. And seeing that is freedom, is dropping off body and mind. And not just your own, but all the things that give you life drop off body and mind when you see how they give you life, and how you give them life. That's a story of the path, of the Buddha path. And this week I'm emphasizing that one of the main is to study action. And action is basically the action of your mind, which then conveys itself into speech and posture. Because action, the activity of your mind, or action, mental action, which is the root action,

[05:44]

is a pattern of relationship between the self and the world. Your mind creates a picture, or I shouldn't say your mind creates, but in your mind there arises, there's a creation in your mind which is a pattern of the relationships, including the relationship between you and the world. And by studying that pattern of action, that pattern of relationship, it will become clear to you that nothing in that relationship, the person that you are and the things you're related to, nothing has an independent self. And that's where you forget yourself. And that's then, when a new pattern of relationship appears, a new type of activity, your mind will have a new type of activity where it will look like the relationship you have with things is that they give you life.

[06:49]

The relationship you have with everything is that it realizes you and wakes you up, makes you feel awake and alive, that you're animated by all things. That's called being awakened by all things. And that is predicated on, or that needs, in order to open to that new type of mental activity, we have to sort of verify that the old pattern of you in relationship where not everything enlightened you. So it's pretty easy to look in your mind and find some situations, some patterns where you don't feel like everything enlightens you. You may feel like a few things enlightened you, you know, like this person enlightens me, this person makes me, this person makes me, I see that this person or this tree realizes me. But some people don't see that at all. They just see that they realize things.

[07:52]

But to see that not just some things realize you, but everything realizes you, that you forget the perspective, the other perspective, the usual perspective, the usual intention, which is which is easily found in your mind. And that brings me to talk about the two, the basic two types of patterns of relationship. Relationship is defined as delusion. That pattern of relationship most people have frequently animating their mind. It's a pattern where you have a self and you carry the self forward and relate You carry yourself forward and relate to, for example, meditation practice. You carry yourself forward and relate to people or animals, and you maybe try to relate to them skillfully and kindly.

[08:55]

But the perspective is you've got the self, and the self will travel. You've got the self, you carry it forward, And you verify things, you confirm things, you help everybody. Of course, sometimes you carry yourself forward and try to hurt people. That happens sometimes. I'm not happy about that at all, but When you're in the realm of got the self, bring it forward to relate to the world, that's a very stressful situation because it's diluted. It's stressful and we get upset and then we sometimes don't want to bring the self forward and help everybody. But some people really kind of do want to help everybody. But because they don't see that everybody's helping them, they think they're helping the other people and the other people aren't helping them. So there's a problem in that. And of course there's a problem when they... The other pattern is everything comes forward.

[10:06]

You know the self doesn't go forward and practice things. Everything comes forward and realizes the self. That's the pattern of enlightenment. Enlightenment. And so the way of turning from the pattern of delusion to the pattern of enlightenment is by studying the pattern of delusion. And the pattern of delusion is in studying action, because action is a pattern of relationship of self to the world. So the more you study action and see how, oh yeah, I think I'm doing this with people or to people, The more you see that, the more you will be able to verify or see that that independent of the beings that it's relating to cannot be found. You will see it cannot be found. And then you're ready to see all things come forward and awaken the self or realize the self.

[11:13]

And this is a very extensive study, but that's the pattern of the path. Another way to say this is to witness and act upon all things. while carrying a self is delusion. So to witness people, trees, oceans, mountains, like there's a mountain, I witness it and I act upon it carrying a self. I've got this burden of a self I carry around and now I act upon the mountain. I witness the mountain and I act upon the mountain. I will climb the mountain or camp at the base of the mountain or whatever. That perspective.

[12:19]

To witness and act upon the Self in the advent of all things is enlightenment. So to see the advent of all things, you see the Self. to see that self that occurs or lives or is born in the coming of all things. And to act upon that self is enlightenment. So enlightenment actually is activity, is the activity of a mind. And delusion is an activity of the mind. So studying the action of your mind First of all, you discover a deluded pattern, and as you study the deluded pattern thoroughly, you discover an enlightened pattern. In both patterns, there's a self.

[13:24]

It's just in one self, the self is a priori, is there beforehand and independent. In the other case, it arises simultaneously. of an experience. The coming of the activity of consciousness is simultaneous with the birth of the self. And the self is confirmed and realized by the activity of the moment, rather than the self is there before and owns the activity, which then is the way the self relates to the world, which is separate from the self. And another thing is that the Buddha, well, let's see, I'll maybe mention this again, but just say that also in this tradition, Buddhas are those who are greatly enlightened about delusion. Or you might say, being enlightened about delusion is Buddha, or is Buddhas.

[14:32]

So Buddhas study the pattern of delusion. You might think Buddhas study something else. And actually they do, but they start by studying and thoroughly understanding and being awake about delusion. So they study this pattern of action. And studying the pattern of action is one of the main ways to learn about the self, because the self is there in the pattern which is action. And living sentient beings, unenlightened beings, those are people who have misunderstandings about enlightenment. Of course, some sentient beings, some people who are not yet enlightened, start studying delusion. So that's good. But before they finish thoroughly, I shouldn't say finish, but before they reach thoroughness, which is not necessarily finishing,

[15:39]

Anyways, it's reaching the end of the study in a sense that you've gone all the way in the study. Before they reach that, they still have some maybe idea that enlightenment might be something different from delusion. When you're studying your delusions, and it goes with them, you might think enlightenment would be something different from this. And before you finish your study, that's what you think, probably. Enlightenment must be something different than this delusion. But when you actually understand delusion, you understand that enlightenment is not delusion. Enlightenment is understanding delusion. But understanding something is not different from the thing. But also understanding delusion is not the same as delusion. Understanding delusion is enlightenment, and enlightenment isn't delusion. Enlightenment's enlightenment, and they're not separate.

[16:41]

But delusion thinks, usually, that enlightenment is separate from delusion. And delusion would like to get rid of delusions to be enlightened. Right? Delusion would like to get rid of delusion because delusion, without being understood, is suffering. Not is suffering, but suffering comes with not understanding delusion. Understanding delusion is kind of like thinking delusion is true, a little bit. Like, I know I don't understand you very well, but really you are the way I think you are. So again, enlightenment is the correct understanding of delusion. So enlightenment is not separate from delusion and it's not the same. And delusion is not separate from enlightenment either and it's not the same.

[17:49]

But delusion is delusion and understanding delusion is enlightenment. It follows then that it would be good to study delusion. And one of the main ways to study delusion is to study action. And action is primarily the moment-by-moment activity of your mind, which means it is the moment-by-moment consciousness which shows your relationship to the world as you see it now. And once again, the deluded part or the mistaken part is that you are separate from the world. And it looks that way to most people. So that's to say that delusion and enlightenment are described in this teaching here as the relationship between the self and the world.

[18:57]

One relationship between self and world is the definition of delusion. Another relationship between self and the world is enlightenment. And the enlightenment relationship is the world arises and the self is born with it. The other is here and acts upon the world. So this enlightened picture goes with the, well, goes with the idea of mutual responsibility, with the teaching that the mountains and the oceans and even the, are those oil drilling equipment out there? And the oil drilling equipment? The whole world arises together with each person. We are born together. We are born in the advent of waves and drilling equipment.

[20:06]

When they arise, we arise. When we arise, they arise. And the world and us together The rising of the world is a consequence of action. So in a sense, there aren't worlds without action. It doesn't say there's nothing, but that what is does not come as worlds aside from conscious beings who have patterns of relationships. And conscious beings, like me and you, do have these patterns of relationship in their... The consequence of all of our patterns of relationship in our minds, the consequences of them, are worlds.

[21:08]

Yes? Can you say a little more about that? When beings in other... Yes. And it's to say that it's not that there's nothing out there, over there in that direction. It's just that what we see there, how we know what is there, arises with our minds, and our minds arise with it. In a moment of awareness of the other? In a moment of interaction? In a moment of awareness, you say in a moment of awareness, yes, and in a moment of interaction, yes. Because our consciousness, our cognitive, what do you call it,

[22:13]

The phenomena of cognition is the interaction between our bodies in the mountains and electromagnetic radiation at a moment of seeing the mountains. So, but it isn't like we're conscious and then we look over at the mountains. It's like we're conscious and when that consciousness is over then our body sees electromagnetic radiation in the mountains and gives rise to a cognition which sees the mountains. So the arising of our being, of our cognitive life at a given moment where we're seeing a mountain or a person who sees a mountain arises with the mountains. The mountains are not there as mountains before we see them as mountains. Sure.

[23:16]

And could you speak up? I don't know, can you hear? Yeah, so... I follow you that our awareness is of something. Awareness of something, yes. Yes. What about awareness of nothing? Nothing? Yeah, in some moments I... I don't quite understand what you mean yet by the arising of no thing. Pardon? I'm confused. I'm following you about our self arising in relation to other things and human beings.

[24:22]

What about the experience of awareness of nothing? How does that connect? Well, again, if you tell me what you mean by the awareness of no-thing. What is that? What is that experience? I'm not connecting with anything. I'm experiencing an openness or an emptiness or no sense of thing. But there is a sense of an openness. Is that what you're saying? Yes. What is that? I would say that at that time you're aware of a feeling of openness, which I think a lot of people feel that sometimes. They're not so much thinking about the mountains or the flowers or the people.

[25:28]

They more have a kind of a feeling of openness. There's almost no sense of relationship in that experience. I hear a sense of relationship when you say a feeling of... That's a certain type of... There's a self experiencing openness. Yeah, but an openness is a kind of relationship rather than closeness. Like, if you're looking at me and you feel closeness, you're not really concentrating on me so much at that moment. relating to a feeling of closeness, I would say, in your body. Because cognition arises from body experiences interacting with the world. So you're interacting with, like if I'm, if you're aware of me, and then when in your meeting with me you feel a closeness or an openness, I would say there's some bodily experience that's giving rise to the feeling of openness.

[26:30]

So your cognition of openness is arising from a certain kind of way that your body feels in my presence. But the openness isn't me, and it isn't really you either. It's a thing that, it's something about the way we're relating that you don't feel obstructed and tense and closed. But it's not that you're aware of some other person or the mountains, but you're aware of how your body's interacting with the mountains or the person. And that, in this case, feels like an openness. So it's not an external object. It's a way your body's relating to external objects. That's easier to understand when I'm sitting in meditation and not interacting with anything or other human beings.

[27:42]

Did you say, when you're sitting, you're not interacting that you're aware of? No, there are times, yes. During the sitting I may be thinking or feeling or perceiving something. When I experience that openness, I'm not sure what's going on. Right. So you're asking about it. Yeah. And I would say to you that when you're sitting... I would say to you also, this is like another big topic called epistemology, but anyway... most of our sensory experience we do not ascertain. We have sensory cognitions arising. In an ordinary minute we have many sensory experiences which most people who aren't deep meditators do not ascertain. But there is this knowledge of awareness of sensory experience, but the sensory experience is not ascertained.

[28:45]

Most people do not know about that experience in a clear, ascertainable form. They're only aware of their conceptual version of those experiences. So when you're sitting in meditation you are actually probably having sensory experiences which you don't know about in an ascertainable, what we might call, conscious way. And also you're maybe having feelings actually, sensory experiences of a feeling in your body in relationship to the world of openness and relaxation which you also may not actually ascertain the sensory version of it but you may ascertain the conceptual version of it, and then you can say the word, I feel open. And so that's, generally speaking, possible.

[29:46]

And then sometimes people feel open and they also feel afraid when they feel open. That often happens in meditation that people have a sense of feeling open, and also then feel afraid, because openness, sometimes you open to awareness that you're vulnerable to other beings. And when we are not used to experiencing vulnerability, and we start to feel it and haven't felt it for a long time, we sometimes feel afraid because we see, oh, I can be hurt. Vulnerability means the ability to be hurt. So that's also part of the meditation is as you become aware of your closeness to the beings you relate to, you will learn that the closeness perhaps doesn't have to be there or can't be found.

[30:50]

and then you feel open, but then when you feel open you feel vulnerable, so then you get scared, and because you're scared, the closeness... forget about the fact that before you couldn't find it. Because you so much want to not feel that you can be hurt, because when you feel that you can be hurt, you feel scared, and you don't like to feel afraid. So you just say, okay, forget this thing I cannot be hurt. I cannot be hurt. And you just keep saying that until the fear maybe starts to calm down. That's what some people do with their kids, right? When the kids are scared, they say, You cannot be hurt. I won't let anybody hurt you. And then the kids say, Oh, really? And the kids stop feeling vulnerable. They deny that they can be hurt because of the sedative effect of their parents telling them, You cannot be hurt. You cannot be hurt. And then when your parents aren't around and you start to feel hurt, you just drink lots of beer and then you feel like, I cannot be hurt.

[31:58]

Nothing can hurt me. And I also happen to be ten feet tall. I'm bulletproof. So we do not like to feel vulnerable unless we actually meditate with it a lot. so that we realize that vulnerability may not be all that pleasant, but it's true that we are. And also, if I can open to the vulnerability, I can open to lots of other information, which would be very nice to see, for example, to see how I'm related to everybody. But if I close to my vulnerability to you, then I close to you, too. And I close to how you're related to me. So, yeah. OK, for now? Yes?

[33:06]

If you go back to that mountain example, into the, taking it into the enlightened state. So, I go to the mountain, I take on the mountain, I take pictures of the mountain, but it's with this self that's witnessing. The self which is witnessing, yeah. The separate self. I could still go to the mountain. Right? Right. In the enlightened state you... you witness from the self that is born in the coming of all things.

[34:29]

And one of the things the self is born in the coming of is the wish to go for a walk in the mountains. So there's the mountains and there's a wish relationship of wanting to be in the mountains. And then you're born there, and you see yourself born there. And then that action, that's an action right there, to see yourself born together with the mountains and the wish to be with them. And then that action could ramify into a posture of lifting a foot or turning the body. in the direction of the mountains. And then another step and another step, each one motivated by an enlightened pattern of relationship, enlightened activity which continues to see the self born in the coming of the mountains.

[35:29]

So as you walk, as you're walking into the mountains, you keep seeing yourself born in the coming of the mountains. The mountains keep seeing you being born in the walking. And you're walking, the mountains and the walking come. The walking comes too, and the mountains come too. And you're born in this way. Enlightenment goes into the mountains, and enlightenment comes back out of the mountains. once you're in the mountains, you may wish then you see down the lower altitudes and you see yourself born in relationship to the lower altitudes. And then there's like wanting to walk back down the mountain and bring this state into the city. So again, this is kind of an amazing statement that the Buddhist tradition offers is that The world is the consequence, or the world, or worlds, are consequences of the actions of living beings.

[36:37]

I don't make the world all by myself. You don't make the world all by yourself. We make the world together. And we humans make different worlds from fishes and birds. And one of the key things about how we make worlds is that, and how we make with amazing coincidence and agreement actually, is because we share language. And language is also part of our pattern of relationship, our action. So we make, we humans make and right in the worlds we live in we also make fishes, We make a world that has fishes in it. But fishes make different worlds from the worlds we make. So we use the example of, if you look at water, we think water is flowing like in a river or an ocean.

[37:39]

But the fish in the water, they don't think the water is flowing water. They think the water is a shopping mall or a palace. or housing development, it's their home. For us it's a place to, you know, go play and fish, maybe, or to look at the beautiful movement of the water. They don't think their world is moving, just like we don't think our shopping centers are moving. We know they are, of course, but we don't really mostly think that way. Matter of fact, if they're moving, you know, retrofitted. But we think the fish's world is moving. But they don't think it's moving. But it is. And as you know, San Francisco used to be Santa Barbara. Right? Santa Barbara's heading to San Francisco and San Francisco's heading to Seattle.

[38:44]

Right? It's moving, and from some people's perspective it's moving rather rapidly. By people I mean beings who have different perspective on the West Coast than we do. They see like the coast is flowing, flowing up there. Just whipping by. But we think it's, you know, we can tell something's happening here, but it's relative. We think, well, we can live here even though it's moving. But mostly we're not into it moving much at all, except as certain qualities force us to face it. So living beings, particularly the pattern of relationship that occurs in their consciousness, the consequences of these create worlds. Isn't that astounding that worlds are created? It doesn't mean that our consciousness creates the entire universe.

[39:51]

It creates the packaging of the universe. But it also means that we create the universe in the unpackaged way that it exists too, but those aren't worlds. Worlds are the places we kind of like, they're kind of enclosures. They're cognitively dependent. They're kind of like enclosures. But they depend on mental activity. But mental activity depends on worlds, but also cognitive activity depends on things which aren't worlds. So there's physical phenomena which contribute to the birth of living beings, but those aren't necessarily worlds. So we're not saying that there isn't any kinds of existence outside of worlds or ungrasped by worlds.

[40:56]

But we do say that worlds are formed by intentions and vows, or I say that, and worlds are formed by intentions and vows, or the consequence of intentions and vows, and are transformed by intentions and vows. Another way to say it is worlds are formed by the actions of living beings and they're transformed by the actions of living beings. And we know that to some extent, like the actions of living beings can build freeways and can blow freeways up and can transform worlds in other ways than building projects. We can transform the world the way the world feels. And again, we don't feel like we built the mountains, but we built the mountains.

[42:01]

The mountains are built by us. But they're also built by the fish. The mountains are also built by the fish and the flies and the birds. We're all making the physical world, but the way we look at the physical world, and there's species similarity in the way the world looks. So that's a big topic there, right? And one more thing I want to say, if I may, before you, in relating to Brett, Now is the world actually in some way a world where everybody, where for example human beings are loving each other? Or is it that there's a potential for the world being human beings loving each other but not being able to see it?

[43:11]

We know that we can't see it a lot of the time, so we've already realized that potential. The question is, is there an existing of love that we can't see, or is it the case two possibilities? One is that we would realize the potential of loving each other at the same time as it actually being that way, without us realizing it. And if one person realized it, actually saw and realized that this mutual love was there, could that be possible that the person would realize it and it would really be that way for that person? But others would not yet realize it, so it wouldn't be that way for those other people. And that person who realized it could see that it wasn't that way for those other people. Could it be that way? So it wouldn't exactly say that it is really the way the one person who sees it is.

[44:18]

It's not exactly that it really is. And that the other people for whom it's not that way, it really isn't that way. Because if it is that, if that's the way they feel in their suffering, that should be given to this person, I think. The person who sees that it is that way loves those people who don't see it's that way. He respects that they see it that way. He honors that they see it that way. They see it as the world isn't, we don't love each other and I'm afraid because we don't. He loves these people who are afraid because they don't see that there's mutual love. So he respects that they see it that way. So he doesn't say that what they see is totally not true. And he doesn't say that the way he sees it is totally true. What he sees is that the way he sees it is peace and freedom and ease for him.

[45:24]

And the way he sees it or she sees it makes him be devoted to the people who don't see it. So he's not saying that the world really is this way. And as a matter of fact, he's, with this vision, wouldn't say the world's really any And that's part of what goes with this vision of mutual love and peace is called the middle way. That when he sees how everybody's loving each other, he sees that as existing in a middle way. He doesn't say it really is that. He says, and the way this mutual love exists is in a middle way. In other words, it doesn't exist like existing in the opposite way of not existing. That's not the way this mutual love exists. So it isn't like it is there is opposite of it not being there. So some people... That makes much more sense.

[46:27]

I was thinking that you were saying that everything is reducible to this one side of love, say, to the exclusion of hate, or something like that. So this is what you're saying. Yeah, so this isn't an... I'm not saying that's the way things really are. The way things really are, then it gets a little bit difficult, is that we don't get into ontology too much. We only get into ontology enough to help people let go of what they really are. So they're in this middle way, but the middle way that things are, you can't grasp. Because they don't not exist, really, and they don't exist, really. They exist in this dependent way. And so people who, and the people who do not, are afraid and unhappy and the people who do see it are at ease and at peace and unafraid and devoted to those who do not see it.

[47:32]

And the ones who do not see it are somewhat devoted to the ones who don't see it. hindered because of their fear and feeling unappreciated by some people and not appreciating some people. So they can't be devoted, they're having trouble being devoted to those who they hate, for example. When the mind tunes into the dimension of the middle way, that middle way of seeing things also opens your eyes to seeing how we're helping each other. When you see how a mountain exists in a middle way, that opens your eyes to see how we're interdependent. If you see interdependence in a substantial way and see that non-interdependence doesn't exist at all, that would blind you to see interdependence accurately. If you see interdependence accurately, it would be that you would see the middle way.

[48:38]

Way is the way to open the view of interdependence, the correct view of interdependence. But the middle way cannot be grasped, you know, as something out there, because it's the way we exist. And the same with enlightenment and delusion. There is enlightenment and there is delusion, but there is delusion in this middle way. So even the patterns where we see ourselves, you know, separate from other people, and not cooperating with everybody, that exists in a middle way. In other words, it isn't . In other words, you can't actually find the pattern of delusion. That's one of the nice things about when the Zen teacher Dogen gives that definition of delusion, he put delusion in quotes. This is what we call delusion, this pattern of relationship. You really can't find the pattern of relationship of you separate from other people.

[49:44]

You can't actually find the separation between you and other people. But that doesn't mean that it doesn't exist at all because it seems to, it appears. Given certain conditions, there's this appearance of separation. So we don't say it doesn't exist at all because obviously it does because people feel it and they suffer for it. So we don't say that doesn't exist at all, we just say it doesn't exist in the sense you never could find it if you look carefully. Or rather, once again, you can't find it and also you can prove that you can see that it can't be found. But seeing that it can't be found doesn't mean it doesn't exist in an opposite way to it does exist. Does that make sense? You can prove that it cannot be found. which is, like I said before, different from just like looking to see where the separation is and not be able to find it, but to say, you know, I'm just busy today. If I look tomorrow, I would be able to find it.

[50:46]

Or, you know... How do you prove that it can't go wrong? You prove, you can actually see at a certain point. Well, first of all, by reasoning. you can actually see through reasoning that it can't be found. And reasoning is based on your actual physical relationship with the world. That through reasoning you actually come to a place where you can see through reasoning that it can't be found. Just like through reasoning you can see an apple is rotten. By looking at it and seeing the color of the apple, you can reason accurately and be sure that it's rotten. You may have to study apples for a while to really be sure, you know, because a brown color on an apple, you know, somebody might have painted it or something. But as you study apples quite a bit, you can see, I'm certain that that's a rotten apple.

[51:48]

Actually, that's a bad example. That an apple has a worm in it, actually. There's reason. It takes some reasoning sometimes to tell that there's a worm in an apple. But you can actually see directly that an apple's rotten if it looks a certain way. So you can actually directly see that something cannot be found. But you can also see indirectly, by reason, that something cannot be found. Can't think of any examples of that? I can think of examples of proving that something can be found. Well, wait a second. How do you prove that something can be found? It's all in the gap. You can find it. And in fact, we do think we can find a separate self. We look and we seem to see it. But then if you look more carefully and couldn't see it for a while, it doesn't mean that you see that you wouldn't be able to see it again, because in fact a few minutes later you kind of see it again, possibly.

[53:01]

Somebody might say, what about this? But to actually be able to see that it cannot be found is a more transformative and certain experience than just not being able to find it. Often the first way that you see that something can't be found is through reasoning. And then later you can see that it can't be found by direct perception. And direct perception, direct empirical perception, is a higher level than reasoning. So in Buddhism we have three levels, in science they have two. We have direct perception, direct experience, reasoning, and scripture. Science, they don't use scripture, even scientific scripture. They just have direct experience, empirical experience, and reasoning.

[54:04]

Those two are both admitted in science. And actually in science, even scripture is sometimes used if somebody said they did experiments and got these results, sometimes you say, oh, okay, I'll trust those people, I trust them. And it's published in a good journal, so you almost take it as scripture in science too sometimes. But there's some teachings in Buddhism of things that Buddha saw which you can't see. And the level of understanding required is that you won't even be able to get them by reasoning. So they're just, they're proved by scripture. But, you know, I was going to now get into an example of the difficulty of finding something and proving that it can't be found. But maybe I should, maybe that, I'll wait to see if you really want that.

[55:08]

Yes? Well, I was just going to say, the reasoning part makes a lot of sense, and I think that I think a lot about the identity of relative and absolute. And that helps me to understand how, you know, like light and dark, and how things are paired, and how we can reason that Things that we see empirically aren't necessarily true, or we see only a part of it. But anyway, we should probably go on. But it's just hard for me to understand how we can prove that something isn't there. How you can prove? No, it's not that you prove that something isn't there. Because you can see whether something's there or not. You don't have to prove it. The proof would be that you couldn't find it. Not that you can't find it, but that you cannot find it. Not that you can't find it now, but that it could not be found. That's the difference.

[56:09]

Because you have certain experiences. Sometimes, you know, people have experiences of being with another person or being in the mountains. You've got your camera, you're in the mountains. Sylvia? And there you are, and you feel real happy because you've got you, your camera in the mountains, and there's no separation, and you feel great. Some people need a camera to feel not separate from the mountains. They feel more intimate with the mountains if they have a camera. Or some people feel more intimate with the mountains if they brush. It helps them actually feel like happy because there's no separation between them. They're not afraid of the mountains anymore for a little while because they got their camera. Like Van Gogh said, I no longer stand helpless before nature. Because he had to not be overwhelmed by those flowers and those hillsides and those suns and moons. It's nice to sort of be there and have a break from separation.

[57:16]

And sometimes when people are physically close to each other, they temporarily forget about the other person being separate, which they feel really good about. Matter of fact, they feel separate from somebody and they want to get closer to get over it. Sometimes you feel separate from people you don't want to get over it. You want to get so far it doesn't bother you anymore that you're separate. Other people, when you feel separate from them, you think, I think getting closer would help. You know what I mean? Anyway, we've got a problem feeling separate from people. And we try getting closer and farther to get rid of that tension, that discomfort that we sometimes feel so strongly. And other people we don't feel much tension or, what do you call it, pain at being separate from them. And those people we don't feel strong attraction to or repulsion from. Does that make sense? But some people we really want to get away from because we feel separate from them, and other people we want to get close to because we feel separate from them.

[58:28]

In both cases I would suggest we want to get over that pain of the separation. And when it's not so painful, we just let the distance be as it is. Or we let the distance be as it is. We don't mess with the distance as a way to manipulate the sense of separation. So at those moments when you don't find the person, it doesn't mean you know that it can't be found. It just means right now I've got to break. But you still think, actually, that you could find the separation, or you still see it again a minute later. So there's a moment of break, and then suddenly you feel separate from the person. It comes right back. You didn't see it for a moment, but the fact you didn't see it for a moment, now you seem to see it again, and you don't know for sure that that can't be found.

[59:29]

The illusion appears and you know this cannot be found. Like a magician creates an illusion, they know that it can't be found. They create it to make a living, maybe, and they can see it too. because they have to sort of be able to see it in order to do the trick. But they know that this cannot be found. They know it's an illusion. The audience pay to see the illusion and believe it. Although they would kind of like to... It is also possible to actually not see it at all. That's also possible. But the people who cannot see it at all, they can usually also see it but not believe it. And most people see it and believe it. So the first is see it and believe it. And study seeing and believing it. And notice that's see and believe. See and act on yourself separate from the world.

[60:34]

That's delusion. Study that, study that, study that and you will see and not believe. Not believe is different from not be able to see. And then the next moment you see, but you don't believe. Because as soon as you see again, you believe. But if you study seeing it thoroughly, you will actually see, oh, this cannot be found. You will see, not just I can't find it, but it's logically impossible to find myself separate from the things that contribute to it. You reason with it and you study it enough so that you actually can see this cannot be found. And at that moment a new form of consciousness arises which is a valid understanding, a valid conceptual cognition that this self is now separate from the things which contribute to it. Right now you already know it's ridiculous to think that something is separate from the things that make it.

[61:39]

But you haven't looked at that self which is dependent on things long enough to see it's not just ridiculous. I cannot find the self as anything in addition to the things contributing to it. But as I often say, most people think there's the universe plus something. It's ridiculous that there will be a universe plus something, but they still think that way. There's me in the universe. And everybody thinks that the thing that's in addition to the universe is them. But they don't think it's the universe plus somebody else. They don't think there's like me, the universe, and my girlfriend. They think the universe has got this girlfriend in it, which is great, that the universe has delivered this girlfriend to me. But they don't think she's on top of the, outside the universe. Just me. And the universe has put her in there for my entertainment. But she thinks that it's the other way around, that she's in addition to the universe. Ridiculous. But we believe it.

[62:43]

We think that way before anything happens, that there's me and here's the universe. We think that way and we believe it. If you study it, and then you see, oh yeah, I can't see actually any separation between the universe and me. Yeah, I can't find the separate. And then you finally see, oh, it can't be found. I do not believe it anymore. It's a shift, a new type of cognition. So you go from actually seeing and believing, to seeing and considering the possibility it might not be true, to seeing and being fairly sure it's not true, to seeing and being pretty sure it's not true, to seeing and knowing it's not true, but still seeing it that way. And then you go to directly seeing, even reasoning. Based on the reasoning, you go to directly seeing that it can't be found.

[63:45]

And that's forgetting the self. And then everything enlightens you. When that's the way it is, you and everybody together are liberated, together, because they're liberating you, you see that, and you see that you're liberated, and you see that you're liberating them, and you see they do not get it. However, this is just the way you see, and you don't think it's really that way. That's the way you see, and seeing this way is called peace and fearlessness. and devotion to all beings and appreciation of all beings and seeing that they're the same for them and that they don't know it. Seeing that. And this way of seeing is the channel is the channel of the path of enlightenment which is totally related to the people who are not in the channel of enlightenment because they don't see their relationship that way.

[64:53]

They see themselves in a different way to the world, so they're not in the right channel. And enlightenment sees that they're in the channel. Because they don't, because they're not tuned into that, they're not yet on the path. So they need to be initiated into this path of seeing the world in this middle way, which opens us to see the world in an interdependent way, is the path of enlightenment. which doesn't exclude the people who don't see it that way, and also people who see it as, you know, that that way doesn't exist or does exist. So the Buddha was emphasizing, first of all, not to see the world in these extreme ways. So much about what I'm talking about, this love thing, that came out more in the Mahayana. But then when we talk about this beautiful loving world, universe, then we bring in the early Buddhist teaching of see this loving universe in a middle way.

[65:58]

If you see the loving universe in a middle way, I should say, yeah, the world you're looking at, forget about calling it a loving universe, if you look at the world in a middle way, you will see it's a loving universe. If you look at the world in an extreme way, you will see it's sometimes loving and sometimes not. You can't even say it's always negative. because sometimes it seems to be positive. It shifts when you see it in terms of extremes. So, enough on that, because you're starting to frown, some of you. Yes? What's your name again? Rachel. As you are presenting this, it's like, I get it, you know, for a moment. That's the amount to get it. Well, I was going to say, even after you, if you came to the conclusion, he's right. I mean, you can't, you can prove that we are not separate.

[67:07]

You can see that for the first time, but Isn't it true that moments later, whatever, even though we've seen that and it will always be there now, you go back to all your feelings of separation from time to time? I mean, you can't... Yes. It's almost virtually impossible to stay in that place of seeing yourself as totally not separate? No. I said yes before and then I said no. Well, I should say it's virtually impossible to stay because it's impossible to stay also in a deluded state. You can't stay in a deluded state either because everything is changing, including deluded states. You don't get to have the same deluded state for more than a moment. But deluded people who do not notice their delusion, they think they can stay in a deluded state. Also, deluded people think they can stay in an enlightened state.

[68:09]

You can't stay in any state because states don't last. Things don't last because the universe is so loving. This loving thing is moving. And they are moving. But again, when we say they are moving, and I'll say it one more time here, just shortly, when we say they are moving, we mean they are moving in a middle way. They aren't like substantially moving, and they aren't like substantially not moving. middle way. But I think back to your original point. It's possible to see and lose it. To actually correctly see and be liberated in a moment and then lose it and come back to see this other way of being separate. Is that possible? Yes. It will happen if you stop practicing. If you stop looking at your... If you stop paying attention to what you're doing, you will lose it. Unless, yeah, you will lose it.

[69:10]

Basically, let's just say you'll lose it because some people get to a point where if they somehow wanted to look at something other than what they were doing, they would. It's possible to get to that point. However, they almost never do not look at what they're doing because whatever they look at is what they're doing. But anyway, for beginners in enlightenment, when you first realize enlightenment, if you would stop practicing in the next moment, The next moment you would like lose it. Plus, not only that, but you have a bunch of habits which developed under the auspices of delusion, and those habits have a life which wants to express itself beyond the moment when you have consciousness. You actually see for a moment in such a way, your consciousness is formed in such a way that we call that enlightenment. But your past cognitions are such that certain behaviors are going to still manifest for a while.

[70:16]

So it is possible that people, and this is hard for people, this is part of the scandals of the spiritual world, is that people who actually do have some insights also have bad habits. And how to work with people who have insight, and not exactly bad habits, but anyway, habits that develop under the auspices, good and bad, still have a life going on for a while and then they or other people have problems with these things and they or other people

[70:48]

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