I incite you of the words of an ancient Buddha, like this. When you first seek dharma, you imagine you are far from its environs. But dharma is already correctly transmitted. When we first seek dharma, we imagine we are parkins and vines. But other translations say when we first seek dharma, We are far when it's in violence.

[01:01]

Is it that when we sit down, we imagine we're far? Or is it that when we sit down, we are far? When we seek dharma, at first, when we seek dharma, you could say we are far because of our seeking. Seeking has consequences, and the consequences is that we feel like we're far. When we first seek dharma, we do imagine we're far from this environment. That's also true. But the translation we chant is, we imagine that we're far, but the dharma has already been corrected. So these two translations are telling the educator, the way is basically perfect and all-pervaded.

[02:20]

But if there's the slightest discrepancy, there seems to be a big distance. If there's the slightest distinction, there's consequences of the mind making distinctions. And the consequence is the way seems as far as from heaven to earth. Even though the ways are pervading, it pervades heaven and earth and in between. But if there's the slightest distinction, discrimination, it seems quite very separate. You could say, ultimately, it's not separated at all. And you could also say, who cares if it feels like it's separated and I feel miserable? That counts, too. One time, I think it was like in 1968, Suzuka Hiroshi is giving a talk, and I think in those days I tried to sit

[03:51]

He pulled through his talks, and his talks were sometimes long. And during the question-and-answer period, I said to him, Is the suffering of the Zen master the same as the suffering of the students? And he said, Yes. And that's the answer I wanted him to give. Now, today I would say, is the ordinary discriminating consciousness of a teacher's mind the same as the discriminating consciousness of the students? In a way, I would say, yeah. In both cases, the mind is like hard ice.

[04:54]

The discriminating mind is like hard ice, but this ice can melt. This mind that makes discriminations and thereby makes a sense of distance, creates a sense of distance, that mind can melt. Somehow we need to give up. constantly and compulsively making distinctions. Or we need to relax so much with them that they have virtually no power. you can look at some instructions for sitting meditation in China.

[06:23]

It may look like they're suggesting that we should put our whole strength into sitting meditation and thereby attain enlightenment. And then, after that, there's no need to practice sitting meditation. Some texts look like that. They recommend sitting in meditation and to wholeheartedly practice it, but then when you attain enlightenment you don't have to. And the logic, you can see a logic in that is that there's a distinction between enlightenment and delusion. There's a distinction between your present state and the serene wisdom and great enlightenment which you wish to realize.

[07:34]

Because of that distinction, you will follow that you practice asin to get where you want to go, and when you get there, you give up the practice. But why not? The problem is that there, too, the distinction is being made. So as you can see clearly addressed, you can see it is clearly addressed in Joglin's Zazen Shin, where it points out this very point. We do not practice zazen with the distinction between our present state and the Supreme Enlightenment. Therefore, we practice zazen forever.

[08:46]

So we have a zazen practice, and the criterion of it is called self-fulfilling samadhi, or self-receiving and using samadhi. Our faith in that samadhi can be expressed by practicing without seeking that samadhi. Seeking that samadhi is antithetical to that samadhi. Practice it without seeking. This samadhi is just the light of wisdom. Freely function through all of your actions.

[09:57]

That's what it is. Seeking that separation. Practicing it, entering it, right now, without seeking. Watching is seeing if your mind is caught by trying to discriminate whether you've entered or not. The light of wisdom is already here.

[10:58]

It's only the insistence on thinking that it's otherwise that makes it seem distant. You right now, your whole body right now, is the light of wisdom. Only your mind or the minds of your friends, and mostly your mind, insisting that it's not true will make it seem that this is not the life of wisdom that you're living right now. Wang Bo entered the hall and said, having many kinds of knowledge cannot be compared with giving up seeking for anything.

[12:34]

Giving up seeking for anything is the best of all things. Mind is not several kinds, and there is no teaching that can be put into words. As there is no more to be said, the assembly is dismissed. Entering a hall Wang Bo said, rather than 100 varieties of erudition, to be without seeking is primary. An enlightening being is someone who does nothing and is truly without numerous types of mind. without numerous types of mind.

[13:52]

They just have one mind, not seeing. And this is one mind of faith in a samadhi, which is the light of wisdom circulating through you right now. Faith in that samadhi is the same as not seeking. Seeking is a lack of faith in the samadhi, which is right now the working of wisdom in you, in everything you do. Every action is light, is working through you right now. Faith in that would mean not to seek anything, including understanding that. Just one type of mind, one faith, one practice.

[14:57]

It includes everything in the whole universe. It even includes seeking. It's just that when you're seeking, the faith is lost. And it seems like wisdom is our way. and it seems like some people are better than others, etc. And there's many more. The self-fulfilling samadhi is just the light of Buddha's wisdom functioning through all your action and faith in it. It's not seeking anything. One samadhi, one mind, there's not really many minds except through discrimination.

[16:09]

One of the disciples of Durga who lived a couple of hundred years ago named Menzan, he was commenting on this self-fulfilling samadhi, and at one point he says, Now I will teach in detail about the truth of clear faith. in this self-fulfilling samadhi. There's a detail about the faith in this samadhi. It's nothing more than not hiding your own wisdom light. That's a detailed teaching. on the clear faith in this samadhi? Samadhi.

[17:36]

Light. Light. Faith in this samadhi, the detailed teaching in clear faith in this samadhi is this samadhi is nothing more than not hiding your light, not hiding your wisdom light. There's nothing more than not hiding it. It's not making the wisdom light. It's not finding the wisdom light, not looking for the wisdom light. It's just not hiding. So, this is kind of neat because he said, okay, now I'm going to teach you in detail about the clear faith in the samadhi. But really that's as much detail as there is. You can say a million ways, but basically that's complete detail about faith in the samadhi.

[18:39]

And it's also, that's it. You know, I can say it otherwise, okay? Here's a detailed teaching about faith in the samadhi. It's not resisting your light. No matter what you're doing, don't resist your light. Oh, by the way, what is your light? Remember what your light is? What is it? You should know. What's your light? Come on. Your samadhi. What's your wisdom, your samadhi, your light? What is it? Your whole heart and mind. It's the whole universe. That's your light. The whole universe is your light, and your light is the whole universe. So no problem finding it. It's everything. The problem is seeking it. So stop hiding your light, your wisdom light. Stop resisting it.

[19:40]

And stop seeking it. Seeking is a kind of resistance. Like seeking Zen forms is resistance. Of course, avoiding Zen forms is resistance. Don't avoid your light. Don't avoid your light. Okay? Don't resist your light. Don't seek your light. That's a detailed instruction on faith in the samadhi. The samadhi is not something you are going to try to do. It is the way the light is functioning in us right now. That is the samadhi and the way it functions in the universe. Remember that part? What? Most definitely. Most definitely. Okay. So that's it. The assembly is dismissed. Just like in the old days, when they had people like Wang Bo, who said, don't you know they have all of China?

[20:51]

Bing Wang Bo says, there are no teachers of Zen. He said that with a lot of authority. And the monk said, what about all these monasteries full of monks and teachers practicing together? And the monk goes, I didn't say there's no Zen, I just said there's no teachers. There's plenty of Zen, there's just no teachers. And there's plenty of resistance to Zen, to a kind of resistance. Trying to get it? and trying to get away from it. Let's have one mind of not hiding our light anymore. Just enjoy it.

[21:56]

Everybody you meet is your light. Every conversation is the light. You're not the universe, I'm not the universe. The universe in ten directions is your own light. It's not you, it's your light. I'm not the universe, you're not the universe, but the universe depends on you entirely and depends on me. And the way it depends on you is the universe. And the universe gives you light. So there it is. Just don't make any distinctions.

[22:59]

That's all. That one mind. And if you happen to ever make any, well, then you know what to do with that. Confession and repentance before the Buddhas, and you'll get over that. Yes, and the years took notice. This time we'll be leaving home. I'll tell you soon. Thanks for going, people. Make us list. It's pieces. I will receive. I don't care. But if I do something, you can't catch me, right?

[24:04]

When you can't, then I'm... I don't take him from a distance. Can you hear me? Go ahead. Oh, it's saundra. I mean saundra. Saundra, saundra. So what about karmic consciousness? Do you know saundra means honored one? Yes. What about karmic consciousness, boundless? I'm unclear.

[25:05]

About it? Yeah. I feel like you're talking about this thing that I have no clue about. This Virochana thing. You feel like I'm talking about something you don't have a clue about? True. You don't need clues. All you need is just no resistance to being clueless. Well, I feel like we've had a lot or a number of confessions of karmic consciousness here. That's a periodical color of you-know-what. And... which continues perpetration, and victims, and suffering, and pain. And I feel like that's an ordinary mind that I myself believe in.

[26:11]

You experienced counter-consciousness? Yeah. OK. So where's what the state Of faith? Yeah. In cognitive consciousness. Where's the light? You can have faith. The light, where's the light? Yeah. The light is right there in your cognitive consciousness. Working right there. It's not hindered by cognitive consciousness. So I feel like there's something else when you read that. Otherwise, consciousness just continues to grow. There's nothing underneath it. Is there attention, vow, practice? What is it? Guishan says, Karmic... Well, actually, he doesn't say it. Yangshan says, Karmic consciousness is vowless and unclear with no fundamental underneath it. There's no fundamental underneath it. However, there is light totally working through it. And

[27:17]

faith in this teaching, this faith in the light, and not resisting the light while you're in the middle of some consciousness, not hiding it, and not seeking it. If you hear that there's a light in this consciousness, the clear faith in that teaching would be the way you seek it. And if you're hiding it from yourself, that you're You accept that you're hiding, and you confess that, which is confessing unconsciousness. That's also part of the trick, is to confess. The thing you're confessing is that you're hiding it, that you don't see it. Or you're confessing that you're trying to get it, that you see it. But all you've got, according to the teaching, is current consciousness to work with.

[28:21]

So how do you work with current consciousness? Okay. How? Non-seeking. And if you can't see, or if you can't see, sometimes you just can't see, you say, I can't see. but I'm not going to seek. So I can press, I can seek. Other times I can't seek and I seek, so now I can press and seek. Is there an assumption? I know that's been asked, but anyway, is there an assumption that evolution is happening towards healing, that that would allow you to just kind of keep going in that state that just this karmic consciousness is in that?

[29:28]

I didn't say karmic consciousness. I'm not... I mean, and some other people said that too. I'm not saying it's enough. I'm saying that's all you've got to work with. And in primary consciousness, you've also heard some words that are participating in verbal karma. You hear them, and the words are directing you towards being a certain way in primary consciousness. Now, if you're asking, is it evolution, when you practice being that way, immediately, as soon as you consider and wish and want to be a non-seeking being in the midst of karmic consciousness, as soon as you wish that, you've just changed into actual practitioner. Now, if you actually don't wish also, then you're like in a debt at that moment. But even if you wish in a debt, You're in depth when you actually don't see at that moment.

[30:33]

You're momentary with that. But if you wish to and then you can't, then you have something to confess, because you've got to practice. If you'd like to practice, which you should. In both cases, you're practicing and you're evolving. In one case, you're confessing in presence of the greatest, and the obstructions to the practice are melting away. The train is aggressing from the practice of melting away. In the other case, you're actually having a change of practice of having a moment of non-seeking. That moment you are an actual enlightened being for a moment. And you have just immediately become that person by that practice. And then, of course, there's the possibility of that happening more and more, to have this one mind of pure and simple faith, pure and simple practice, free of discriminations between where you are and where you want to be.

[31:47]

And you can want to be someplace without seeking And when you don't seek it, you realize you're already there. But when you do seek it, it's like you're not there. It's like you prove, in some sense, you seek, you seem to prove that it's not true that you're in the realm of the teachings. Not really, but it feels like it, and that's important. It's important that you feel alienated. To feel alienated means you could recognize something. To feel alienated means you recognize something. To feel alienated means you're caught by discrimination. Yeah, but it doesn't mean you recognize something else. Even if you think you're not there.

[32:49]

You recognize something else and you're discriminating between this and that something else. And you're caught by it. So you have something to confess. You're caught by discrimination. And that's a practice from the heart of Buddhism. But there's more than just confessing transgressions. There's also the actual straightforward practice. Quite a lot. I wonder, since the seeking is very much a human nature, is there not a more natural way to realize the light?

[34:07]

Since, like you said, there's also light in the seeking, I wonder why this is a principle that you have to give up seeking to realize the light, or if there are channeling ways of channeling the seeking so you don't have to give it up to still realize the light even in the seeking. I thought that was funny. You're a success. You've just attained it. Congratulations. You found it another way. But you didn't see it. I didn't see it. Is that not them? Yeah, yeah. I'm sorry. I process you. There is a natural way, but you keep missing it. Actually, your non-seeking way is happening all the time, and it's quite natural that we miss it.

[35:16]

So you have to, like, you have to sort of, like, gin yourself to non-seek it. You have to, like, okay, come and practice. And that seemed unnatural. Is that right? Mm-hmm. Cool. But it's not really unnatural, because since you're a seeking being, it's natural for you to practice non-seeking, because you're a seeker. So that's why you're set up to practice non-seeking. And you're discriminated, so that's why you're set up to practice non-discrimination, and so on. It's quite natural. And you're a hider. So it's natural for you to practice non-highly in your resistance. So it's natural for you to practice non-resistant. So these could be seen as very natural. I wonder, aren't some koans like that which also try to guide to seeking of

[36:33]

beginning practitioners and make use of that strong energy of seeking rather than just always telling them, give it up, just sitting? Maybe it's just by exhausting it. I think the koans are about not resisting. They're about not resisting and giving up. They're about forever. For people who don't want to give up resisting, they give you koans about not resisting. And they don't want to actually not resist. They want to hear stories about not resisting, which I know are interesting. So then you get more, but this is really quick. You hear a story about this guy, you know, seeking, but no call. But actually, you know, seeking is, you know, it's not, you don't have much time.

[37:35]

And it's exciting. You know, it's dazzling. So it's kind of a conjugal problem. But I think, you know, we shouldn't know what it's a problem. So if you tell us what it is, I'll leave you for now. You didn't see his face even though you couldn't see his face. That's wonderful. In the light of the last couple of days of Hashim, I saw some, I have seen some averting that I was doing.

[38:50]

And that I've seen before and averted from repeatedly. You saw some averting? Yeah, and I've seen it, and averted, and averted. Whenever I see it, I avert from it. And it was a particular aversion, I mean, not aversion, averting from. during, well, seven years ago, from a number of things during the time that my mother was dying. So it has a lot of emotion and weight around it. And what I avert from, I mean, there are things out there, but in terms of the boat, what I'm averting from is a lack of courage on my part. Averting from the lack of courage. Averting from fear. Fear, from, well, from fear. From having acted in ways that were appearing responsible and courageous, but knowing that in the heart of some of those actions there was great fear, and I was tearing away from certain things.

[40:01]

There was a certain kind of action. Yes. Was fear involved in those actions? There was fear hidden in those actions. Yeah, there was. And I was hiding from it myself as well. So there was fear hidden in you hiding from the fear? Yeah. And along with that, or connected to that, is when I came to live at Zen Center six and a half years ago, six years ago, I didn't know I was coming to be trained to be released from my own suffering. I didn't know I was coming to be trained for my own sake. But I was. There was something more along those lines, but I forgot.

[41:05]

Is there a vow here? There's a vow. What is the vow? Continue practicing wholeheartedly in the heart of the still living. And when you see here, what is the vow? Confess. Confess the fear. Be aware. Confess. Be aware. Confess. Repent. I would get to a bad fear. Oh, okay. That's different. Fear is more like, just need it. And repenting things that you shouldn't repent, like getting a strap of a massage that will help you stay severe. Because we're afraid of some of the people who look at us and we're afraid of what will happen to us in those things. But facing the fear will not help you repent.

[42:19]

Confessing and repenting will help you face the fear. So it will help you not be afraid of doing things that you have to confess. It will help you not be afraid of doing things that you have to confess. It will help you not be afraid of making mistakes. Confessing. Confessing will help you not be afraid of making mistakes. So, making mistakes is easy, right? Being not afraid of them is not so easy. Noticing that you're afraid leads to fear about making a mistake. And also, confessing in this day will help you be fearless about making mistakes. And then you can learn to make mistakes. I understand. Somehow the ground shifts when we use the word mistake.

[43:20]

Well, we're mostly often confessing mistakes, right? I guess so. It's just when we say the word mistake, I think of Doe and Bells. We confess those too. They're often coming from... coming from inattention, et cetera. So actually, definitely certain mistakes. In fact, having the forms give us a chance to study these things about the life and death. Yeah, and we're resisting and stuff like that. So there's stuff to confess. There's mistakes. But it's the learning from the mistakes. We're learning. The Dharma is through mistakes. I understand. Hello. Hello. A few days ago, I confessed to you some actions that were karmic hindrances and kept me from being alive.

[44:48]

Laura, please. A few days ago, I confessed to you some actions that I felt were karmic hindrances that kept me out of the light. Was that loud enough? Could you hear? Mm-hmm. No, maybe if you come closer to the microphone. She confessed the karmic tendencies. That I felt kept me, or resist, made me resistant to being in the light, or kept me out of the light. And you? That's interesting. She said karmic tendencies that made it hard for her to be in the light. Yes. And you told me that I needed to begin a process of confessing and making amends. And I wondered if this is a good time to begin.

[45:52]

Keep going. It's not going to get any better. It's OK with me if you want to. OK. Do you want to turn around? Do you want to? Yeah, I should .. You told me already. I told you already, yeah. But I was the guest. Don't tell me the whole story. No, that is OK. The irradiated version is that for a long time in my life, I was a Catholic and had very strong Catholic beliefs.

[46:53]

That's just the background. In my past, about 25 years ago, I was very active in the women's movement. the political fight for reproductive choice, and I became a spokesperson for abortion rights. And I began to feel uncomfortable in that role after a while. And I began to question my own views about abortion and looked into myself and found that I felt that I could never have an abortion. For me, abortion is sticking by. But when I looked at some theological ideas about this, there was no real consensus about when life began or when there was a sentient being. But for me, it seemed to myself

[47:57]

I could not do that. But because I was such a spokesperson for the issue, I felt that I needed to, I don't know why, but I felt that I needed to put my money where my mouth was or something and actually train to do abortions because I wanted to help women. And for about a year, I did abortions. and found that I felt increasingly uncomfortable, depressed, upset, and finally quit. And I, over the years, have come to realize, and they hit me here big time, that for me, that process, those actions were taking life, and that But I feel that I did that for whatever reason.

[49:06]

I didn't have to do it. I could have argued for women's rights to choose without having to actually do abortion. And I am sorry. I'm sorry that I did that. Okay, serious part. Can I just say thank you? Jerry, just thank you.

[50:09]

After our last conversation in Dokusan, I felt really up against the wall. I didn't know how to get through that. I felt like... Can you hear him? I felt like I was hidden in our conversation. Not communicating really. So it really turned up the heat on my city. And you would talk about wholeheartedness. supported that. Yet, in the whole effort, my ordinary mind has a hard time dropping some sense of seeking in that, even in the effort of wholeheartedness.

[51:31]

That's a confession, I guess. Is there a vow there? Yes, there's a vow there. What is it? It's a vow of wholeheartedness. A vow of wholeheartedness? It is clear to me in a conceptual or intellectual way. When you asked the other day, did I say, practice wholeheartedly without seeking anything, My response was, of course, because it's a redundant phrase. If part of my heart is seeking something, then my practice is not wholehearted. So yes, there is a vow to continue.

[52:37]

And I will seek some more. And I will confess that. Okay, question then. Ordinary mind, one line. When you said, I will seek some more, was there any seeking in that? Perhaps. Dropping off body and mind. While you're at it. That, I presume, while I'm at it, is referring to the body and mind that are really always seeking. No. Dropping off body and mind is the light of your life.

[53:41]

It's the way your life's working for you. of the Kavali mind of constantly bragging law. It's happening. We're already there. Okay, is this what Guru Nanak is referring to with the phrase essence of mind? I have no idea. Good, no idea. Thank you. You're welcome. So the other day, I heard Maria suggest that some of us were coming up because we were shy

[54:45]

And I started to think to myself, am I shot? And then, I didn't think I was shot. And then I sat with that for a while. Why? Why did I not feel the urge to come up? And there was a lot of different factors out there. But I realized that I was afraid of saying something that would offend somebody, that it would hurt somebody. Maybe they wouldn't like me. Maybe they would think badly of me. And then right now, I've heard you speaking to Catherine about confessing is a very good way to practice making mistakes. And you and I talked a little bit about getting over the fear of making mistakes. So it kind of all came together, and... I realized that it would probably be a good practice to come up and expose myself in some way and be willing to receive feedback about that and whatever.

[56:01]

It's helpful. I think it's very good for us to explore ourselves. In fact, I mean, it's a great idea for us to explore this. I hear that. And in fact, if we do expose ourselves, we'll miss it when we think we're not exposing ourselves. And our light is also exposed. But if we hide one kind of exposure, we also hide the light. So it's not just imposing ourselves, it's realizing our wisdom. So please, come forward and show yourself to us.

[57:06]

There was a thing that came up for me when Kathy spoke to me, Kathy Holden, when she talked about the kumbaya, and she listened to this, I probably wasn't physically in the room, but because I realized that there have been so many times in my life where I had an opportunity to speak out about something that I felt strongly about, some sort of injustice, you know, racial comment, a homophobic comment, a sexist comment, a classist comment, you know, things that I see all the time that there's this fear that I don't want, I'm really afraid that people won't like me, that I'll offend people, that I won't be seen in a favorable light, that I actually withhold coming up you know, as Kathy did, to expose herself and say, you know, I feel like I'm alone here, but this is coming up for me. And, you know, I think that was extremely brave of her. And I really, I felt sort of joy for her and also sadness because it reflected my own inability or my own, yeah, inability to take that risk.

[58:31]

And... Is there a valid... I vow to try as hard as I can to speak out about things that I feel are unjust in a skillful way. And the moment they occur, even if I'm afraid, and even if it may hurt hurt people or alienate them or make them feel sad. Or alienate you. Or alienate me. Yeah. So, yeah, even if it makes me feel... And also, do you want to add to that at all? Do you want to face that fear? I want to face that fear. And not let that fear stop you from doing what you really want to do? You want to learn that? I do. I'm curious. Now if you don't do that, you have something to confess.

[59:35]

Everybody make yourself comfortable. I feel exposed, as you saw. I feel exposed, as you saw. I feel like I'm up there. But a few people told me, before session, that they didn't feel like I come forward. And so I think I'm I'm standing here just to kind of honor and acknowledge that we've received that from a couple people. So you'd like to acknowledge that the people said they feel like they haven't really come forth. Yeah. You'd like to acknowledge that. Yeah, I'd like to acknowledge that. And is there a vow besides acknowledging that?

[60:52]

I... I'd like to take my whole life to practice, okay? Do you want me to call in for you? You do? You're nice down here. Tell those people that's what you want me to do. Please help me. He wants to do it, so you talk to him. Sometimes when I hear people say things like, when I met you, you were perky.

[62:23]

Or you seemed more talkative when I first met you. I wonder if it's okay the way the light of the universe is shining through me. Is it okay if you become less perky? It is totally beautiful, the way the universe is expressing itself as you. Brookie. Brookie is, you know, it's nice, but I feel... Sometimes the same... You have to be talkative, especially during session. Sure. Well, I know you'd be surprised, but I'm surprised by how people in a monastery, in a retreat, seem to have trouble with my being silent.

[63:33]

You're surprised that people have trouble with their being silent? Yeah, I'm surprised too. I'm surprised that people have trouble with you being silent, and I'm surprised how much trouble people have with you being silent. Actually, I'm also surprised how easy it is for them to not be silent, how easily they just talk away so I can hear them blocks away. I think it's amazing and wonderful to hear some new guy in here talking. It's a party. It's a party. It's a party. I would like to say something after what Sherry said.

[64:52]

And I wonder if that feels OK to her. I don't think you'll mind what I say. Whatever you say. For me, when she was up here speaking and feeling something, for me personally, she turned away a little too quickly. So I just wanted to share that. that the community is really here to hold people's grief. And so I was sad when you quickly left, clearly coming up your head that you were feeling something. And I just wanted people to know, and you to know specifically, to keep crying and more fear for any grief, really. Yeah, very important too that you know that. I think sometimes it's hard in the container of our forms to know how to express

[66:00]

feeling, you know, so good at being silent and doing very specific forms. So sometimes we can, I don't know, I just wanted to offer us as a community to create a form to hold, greet, or whatever is coming up, you know? We can do a ceremony for that. That's all. If you have Someone came to me recently and said, how do we, what do we do with our feelings in Zen practice? So I talked with that person quite a bit about the feelings she was talking about. So I think we do want the feelings to have a container so that they can be cared for. And if you have a question about how to take care of feelings, I think it's good to go to your practice, to your teachers about how to take care of your feelings, what kind of container would be appropriate to build so this feeling could be fully felt, fully realized.

[67:13]

Because it's, you know, you may not know how to do it, you may not know what's okay, you may not know what's supported. Promises. Yes, Jean. And also to know that we are the container. I really think we're all here to hold each other completely. We're not so interested in holding someone who's not being completely themselves. And we're very interested in supporting people. I just agree. What do you think? I think we should all go to the doctor. Certainly, but I'm more interested in holding someone who's completely new. I just agree. All right. No distinction between To get the two types was, I want to hold them both. We don't, they're both precious. We need a container for both, so one can evolve to the other. That's true, and Jerry, it was an honor to, like, as a community, to hold you as you shared, and it felt grateful.

[68:15]

It didn't feel lacking in that each person has come up. It feels like an honor, and I think maybe that's what you're saying, Webb. Like, it is complete. Case number two. 432, the Tassajara... A monk approached. The teacher at Tassajara was very talkative. A monk approached and said, Master...

[69:16]

I realized that this monastery is built on your words, but I still don't understand the foundation. For once, the teacher was speechless. So I wrote that and I thought I would offer to anybody, especially you, anybody who thinks of a verse. Like now. That's okay, Pop. A speech of verse. For Jerry.

[70:33]

For Jerry. In obedience. A lousy verse. A lousy in-verse. A confession, a little one. How did you do it? When you spoke, Jerry, I felt very fluent. And I really wanted to request a moment, as you were going to sit down, I really wanted to just sort of shout out, we maybe just take a moment to let that, I mean, I wanted to honor the movedness that I felt, and I thought maybe that was a light on the wound, but I let that.

[71:41]

won't go, and that's all I wanted to acknowledge. Okay, thank you. And I would like to vow to take those meetings. You'd like to vow to express? Yeah. Or to allow those moments and ask for those meetings and across the other units? Yeah. Mm-hmm. Are you going to ask for one now? No. Okay. Hey, there's a... I've never been in a strong suit of mine.

[72:48]

So how do I know if it's still alive? Not yet. Not to sleep. I'm trying to understand. But also, it's not the way, it's not in the realm of the knowing and not knowing. And then the latter part of that story, between Xiaojiao and Nanxuan, says when you find him, the way, of no doubt, that means of a faith that somehow without knowing and not knowing, the ancestors have had a faith of their own. But I get to just look at my own privacy. Do you believe in the goodness of wisdom?

[73:59]

Do you think wisdom is a good thing in your life? A good way for you to be in the world? That might be a thing that you do have. I was thinking more of the A direct experience? Well, direct experience is, like, whether or not I'm in the right room, or whether I've fallen off the path, gotten lost in some brambles, or whether I'm still actually staying on the path. some way to test, some way to, some confirmation for those curious whether or not that's necessary or possible.

[75:00]

It is possible. So you are encouraged in this tradition to test your faith. If you feel you've realized what's important to you, you could test it. You have the courage to test it. Well, what do you really like? Do you want to put it in my chest? Is there a good moment? Is there a good moment? Is there a good moment? So you've realized that there's nothing wrong? Some kids are actually sleeping? So I'm not sure. Is there a good moment? Well, maybe this is it. So you're not sure? In other words, you could say it's a possibility that this is it. Maybe.

[76:01]

And is this conversation testing that? Testing that maybe this is it? It might be. And you don't need to seek anything from now? No. Now you don't hear anything you need to seek and you give your deeply, you seek. Yeah. Hopefully we seek the truth. So do you trust that? What, not seeking? Whether you trust or not trust. Yeah, so whether we don't trust or not trust. then I guess I don't know what you're testing. I don't know what you're testing. So this should be true? Well, I just, when you say neither, I don't know what we're testing.

[77:07]

I'm not creating what we're testing. You think we just don't need to test? Well, I thought you were interested in testing, but do you know that maybe it's not necessary? Well, I'm just curious whether or not it's necessary or even useful or possible. No, not so sure. It seems that testing has been necessary in the history of this tradition. Otherwise, people could read the bigotry, which is compassion. and just say, you know, I'm wise and kribashi without putting it to any test, like asking anybody else if they feel it, if they realize what way to be and what some people feel like they understand. And they tell some teacher, and the teacher said, well, you know,

[78:11]

And then they have a little puzzle. And then they say, well, now I understand. And the teacher says, yeah, now you understand. So there's a lot of stories like that. It's going to have this big change from thinking they understand exposing themselves, exposing their understanding to a teacher, and the teacher disagreeing with them and not actually understanding in another way. And then the teacher says, yeah, that's different, that's it. That's not correct in school. It was misunderstanding to me. It's our detection with words. Me? Our detection with words. Back to the kind of understanding we're most interested in, you can't touch with words. However, it can talk. So there seems to be a whole bodiness, a whole heartedness. Yeah, that would be part of it. Yeah, so for example, a lot of the stories that the student is supposedly speaking from his place to avoid a drunk touch.

[79:19]

And you're speaking from that place to be tested. And your T.K. says, you're not speaking from that place, you're speaking from other words. And then your T.K. responds half-heartedly. And your T.K. points that out. And then they come back wholeheartedly. Another way to say it, you're testing your wholeheartedness. And so you bring your wholeheartedness forward and say, I feel like I'm being wholehearted. What do you think? And the person says, no, I'm not. And you sometimes, no, you're not. And they say, well, you're right, I wasn't. Or sometimes you come forward and you say, I'm being wholehearted. But you can say, oh, you're being wholehearted. And they say, oh, no, I'm not. And sometimes they say, yes, you are. And you say, no, I'm not. Now when you say, now when you approve me, I see I wasn't coherent. So we need, somehow we need others to know ourself.

[80:22]

To prove ourself, we need to bring our understanding forward and meet. So there's two parts of practice. One is you have an understanding that you develop in your practice, and you bring that understanding forward and test it out interpersonally. So, how am I doing? You're doing really well. How do you feel? I was just about to announce that I often proclaim sesshinis, the best sesshinis of all time. But I got interrupted by Shavuot. Yes? Proclaim.

[81:25]

Proclaim? One time after one of the sesshinis that Ninan was at, I said, usually I proclaim that this is the best sesshinis of all time. At this point it wasn't, and she got very upset. What do you think you did? I didn't like it. You didn't like that I said that? No, I wasn't upset. Well, you weren't upset, you just didn't like it. Right. And you were just calmly not liking me for talking about it. Sorry. I take that because she was upset. She was serenely displeased with my comment. But anyway, I thought this was a supremely wonderful session. And each of you really made a wonderful contribution.

[82:33]

Thank you, Nick. You did. Thank you. You did a great job. And . Wasn't everybody generous and courageous? Thank you so much. And again, we have a little more time to practice. It's a sport. So shall we go along with that together?

[83:01]

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